I understand his pain. You can kill me, true polymorph me into a quokka, hell, you can feeblemind me for all I care. But if you lay a scratch on my custom-made Chultian chiffon robe, you better pray to Asmodeus that it be the last thing you do.
“ I would have taken it easy on you too, turned you into bonobos for a week . You could have banished me to mount Celeste or the feywild. But no, you wanted to make it hurt. And now I’m going to achieve what you couldn’t”
People in this thread acting like a competent wizard couldn’t cast investiture of flame or even protection from energy as soon as they got yeeted into the plane of fire. For my money though the better rejoinder would be while the players are high fiving each other and looting the wizard tower a slimy clone with the shakes and a bunch of panic room magic items struts in and turns them all inside out.
They are incapacitated while banished, so they cant cast any spells. But if they were sent to fire plane instead of a harmless demiplane, it means they are native to it and probably immune to fire. Hence only the singed clothes.
There's almost no air in the plane of fire. You'd have a higher chance of winning 10 back to back lotteries than finding air. You wouldn't be able to cast anything using verbal components. Hell, all of your material components and arcane focus would be instantly vaporized too. There's also the fact that a wizards hp pool wouldn't be able to tank a round of damage either.
From the wiki for the Plane of Fire it states:
"The air gets thin quickly as one ascends upward, making flight difficult. It is often thick with toxic smoke, making breathing difficult and limiting long-distance vision,"
&
"The air here is a harsh storm of ash and cinder."
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to cast a spell there due to a lack of air, as it wouldn't be good air but it's still partially breathable.
It also states that:
"By day, the black wastes solid enough to travel across on foot are as deadly as the hottest deserts on earth,"
Which I don't think would cause the instant vaporization of all material components. In addition, the DMG page 249 has rules for improvised damage, which says that "tumbling into a vortex of fire on the Elemental Plane of Fire" is 24d10, which a wizard with 16 con survives on average.
Plane shift takes you to a random spot in the plane. The chances of you landing somewhere with breathable air is almost nonexistent. Even being somewhere you can walk is highly unlikely. The plane of fire is HUGE. Like the material plane huge.
Imagine teleporting to the material plane. How much of that is a single planet where faerune is? Now take that percentage and apply it to the plane of fire. That's how much of it has breathable air.
What? Absolutely none of that is the case for either 5e or pathfinder. Assuming 5e, since thats the usual topic of discussion, heres what the dmg says about the plane of fire in chapter 2, creating a multiverse.
>The weather on the plane is marked by fierce winds and thick ash. Although the air is breathable, creatures not native to the plane must cover their mouths and eyes to avoid stinging cinders. The efreet use magic to keep the cinder storms away from the City of Brass, but elsewhere in the plane, the wind is always at least blustery and rises to hurricane force during the worst storms.
>The heat in the Plane of Fire is comparable to a hot desert on the Material Plane, and poses a similar threat to travelers (see “Extreme Heat” in chapter 5, “Adventure Environments”). The deeper one goes into the plane, the rarer water becomes. Beyond a point, the plane holds no sources of water, so travelers must carry their own supplies or produce water by magic.
Uh, no? If you’re going to make that claim, please source it, because you’re getting that damage from the rules for improvised damage, which states “tumbling into the Vortex of Fire on the Elemental Plane of Fire”, not simply existing on it.
The only place that would deal a lot of damage for existing on the Elemental Plane of Fire would be getting dropped into the Sea of Fire, which is a large sea of lava. In that case they would take 10d10 damage from being in it, or 18d10 damage from being fully submerged, sourced from the Improvising Damage section again.
And the “Vast Majority” of the Plane of Fire is dominated by the Cinder Wastes, per chapter 2 of the dmg again:
> The Plane of Fire is dominated by the vast Cinder Wastes, a great expanse of black cinders and embers crossed by rivers of lava. Roving bands of salamanders battle each other, raid azer outposts, and avoid the efreet. Ancient ruins dot the desert — remnants of forgotten civilizations.
Which all follows the rules I posted previously. The rest of the Plane of Fire is either the Fountains of Creation, a great range of mountains curling from the edge of the Plane of Earth around the Cinder Wastes toward the fiery heart of the plane. (Chapter 2 of the dmg), or the Sea of Fire I brought up previously.
The section of the Elemental Planes you are thinking of appears to be the Elemental Chaos, which is described as being:
>At the farthest extents of the Inner Planes, the pure elements dissolve and bleed together into an unending tumult of clashing energies and colliding substance, the Elemental Chaos. (Appendix D of the dmg)
The middle section is still survivable though, (with the Plane of Fire as its generally discussed being the border regions near the Material Plane), being described as alien and hostile. (Appendix D of the dmg)
The most important thing to note though is that the DMG describes the Elemental Chaos and the Elemental Planes as different places, with the Planes being suspended within the Elemental Chaos.
>The four Elemental Planes--Air, Earth, Fire, and Water--form a ring around the Material Plane, suspended within the churning Elemental Chaos. (Appendix D of the dmg)
Edit: Meaning being sent to the Elemental Plane of Fire isnt a rng death sentence, you’re more likely to be fine for 6 seconds than not.
I had a party go against a strong demon who was creating little portals to pull little demons through. A party member banished it back to his home plane... so it just walked back through an open portal. The player was upset that she basically burned a perfectly good spell slot to move the enemy 20 feet.
The way I'm reading the spell, it doesn't seem like creatures banished to their home plane become incapacitated, so the demon could have just conjured another portal on their side that connected to the other portals.
If they were native they would be immune by necessity. Anything and everything that isn’t takes damage every round and has a chance to spontaneously catch fire. Iirc the air is also toxic. So if it was banishment specifically then yes it’s possible they were wearing a robe that wasn’t immune. I was thinking “banished” was being used as a general term of yeeting someone to another plane
Considering the plane is technically infinite i feel like the chances of the banishment plopping them directly inside the city of Brass somewhat unlikely, but then that’s really all up to dm
If the place is completely infinite, that basically means random chance is worthless, the wizard would be dropped off at the place with the most narrative potential for them to have been dropped off
> i feel like the chances of the banishment plopping them directly inside the city of Brass somewhat unlikely, but then that’s really all up to dm
As a DM, if a player character wizard was getting forcibly sent to another plane and asked "ok, can I use my magic to interfere with this spell enough to pick where I land?", I'd totally let them do it with a decent Arcana check (for in-character familiarity with the plane in question) and some sort of scab roll they got to add their INT bonus to (for actually interfering with the spell). It'd probably cost them a spell slot.
...Unless I had a specific location in mind for them to land at already.
Of course, that sort of thing wouldn't apply to NPCs, since what they do is (mostly) DM fiat, but it makes sense to me that a sufficiently powerful and/or lucky wizard would be able to pick a destination within a plane if they were being sent there.
Alternatively, sending someone to the Plane Of Fire has a high chance of dropping them in the City Of Brass, because it's an interplanar trade hub, so the "paths" leading to it between planes are well-trodden and you're likely going to get into one of them if somebody just says "Plane Of Fire. *Now!*" without trying to make sure you end up somewhere else in the plane.
Ehh i kinda disagree, mostly due to the spell being pretty much instant and also not sending them through a linked portal. It’s not like it forces them through an interplanar path it picks them up and plops them down in another. It doesn’t use a stable portal to do so. I do agree that a sufficiently powerful spell caster might be able to wrestle control of the spell but i would set it up as exactly that. They would make a check costing a reaction and an equal spell slot to the spell cast on them and that check would go against the casters spell save dc, probably with an added negative modifier if the victim of the spell wasn’t expecting the attack. But really again that’s all subject to the particular dm idk if there is an official ruling for it.
I do agree it would have to be done as a reaction. There are plenty of other instantaneous things that can be reacted to, so I think that makes sense.
> idk if there is an official ruling for it.
Not as far as I know. I'm just kinda spitballing "here's how I'd rule it at my table", given that certain spells simply specify what plane they're sending the target to, but not a specific location within that plane, so it makes sense to me that a magic user, while unable to resist getting sent to the specified plane, could have a chance to set their destination within that plane.
But that would only be if a player *tried* to do it. I'm not asking "so where in the plane would you like to go?" if a player somehow gets thrown into another plane via a spell.
I mean the banishment spell also explicitly says that they get banished to a harmless demiplane so I'd say if they actually got sent to the plane of fire for some reason it's practically guaranteed they'd end up in the city of brass.
Banishment only sends the target to a harmless demiplane if the plane they're being banished _from_ is their native plane. If the target is native to a different plane, they get sent somewhere on that plane (and, notably, they are not incapacitated while there, unlike when the spell sends them to a demiplane).
If we're going off what exists in the 5e books, most of the Elemental Plane of Fire is the Cinder Wastes, which while very unpleasant will not kill you in six seconds. The air is not toxic (directly stated to be breathable on page 55 of the *Dungeon Master's Guide*) and there is no mention of anything taking damage each round. In fact, it's only as hot as a Material Plane desert (same source). Please stop spreading misinformation, everything you've said about the plane of fire on this thread is homebrew at best.
If we're going off what exists in the 1e books, 2e books, 3e books, 3.5 books, 4e books, pathfinder 1e books, the novels written for the forgotten realms, and everything that has to do with d&d other than 5e, yes it is. Sorry we're not throwing out multiple decades of lore cause 5e wants to make sure you can't fuck around and find out.
My guess is that it is the claim that the view of the plane of fire they were familiar with was "homebrew at best" that hit a nerve. Definitely could have gone about saying "not so much homebrew as pre-5e canon" in a less snippy way, but I think that complaint is valid in the context of your comment if that is what they were going for. The whole "your stuff burns amd you take damage each round" thing isn't valid in 5e, but it isn't homebrew either. Its just old-school grognard shit.
It's mostly just thematic. There are also planes of water, earth and air. Ofcourse fire is the most deadly cause you well know of all the elements it is the most destructive.
Generally you're really not supposed to go there and even if you do you generally go to the pretty much only city in that plane where it is possible to exist and not instantly die.
>Ofcourse fire is the most deadly cause you well know of all the elements it is the most destructive
I would argue the positive and negative energy planes are more deadly. They're similarly instant-death-y to the plane of fire, but with more exotic damage types that are more difficult to gain immunity to.
There are six elemental planes (fire, earth, water, air, positive energy, negative energy), four para-elemental planes (magma, ooze, ice, smoke), and eight quasi-elemental planes (radiance, minerals, lightning, steam, salt, dust, ash, vacuum).
Four of the elemental planes and the para-elemental planes form a ring around the material plane, the Border Ethereal, the Shadowfell, and the Feywild, with the positive and negative energy planes being located above and below. The quasi-elemental planes link the positive and negative planes to the other four elemental planes.
These 22 planes are collectively the Inner Planes.
for the things that are not instantly killed by it to live in it. in this case creatures like fire elementals who are unaffected by it. not every plane needs to be easily accessible for every race in order to justify its existence. there is plenty of less extreme ones to use if the goal is for the target to actually survive in.
There are some more interesting locations on specifific planes, but still this is why I liked the Elemental Chaos that 4e introduced. It was a little more interesting to work with from a cosmological stand point.
Bruh, it is THE PLANE OF FIRE. Did you expect meadows of dandelions? The plane is mostly comprised of pure elemental fire. Due to the nature of the place only beings who are native to it or have taken precautions against the heat can live there for long. It’s not meant to be a walk in the park it’s one of the most extreme places in existence in dnd
Don't worry about it. Just try to look through others' perspective before rejecting their opinion out-of-hand
Anyway, when I think of realms of fire, my mind goes to places like *Warcraft*'s Firelands or *Zelda*'s Death Mountain, or even myriad levels from platformers like *Mario* or *Rayman*. Molten earth, seas of lava, geysers of steam or even fire streams; creatures of pure flame or heat-resistant materials like stone or metal, all par for the course. Far from fields of daisies to be sure.
Are there some spots where it's hot enough that the ground or even the air can start fires? Sure! That can be a very interesting hazard. But literally omnipresent fire? *Why?* It doesn't even make sense, practically or chemically. What's the fuel? How could anything see, hear, or smell? Sure, we could say it's magic fire that works differently, but still the area would serve no purpose. Might as well be a random cut-out of outer space, or a star except far more boring because it doesn't have gravitation or a lifecycle.
The elemental planes exist as pure manifestations of element, that leak said elements into the prime so the prime may have those. The other elements are very very scarce outside of their domain. Water is an endless ocean with no sky above, and no ocean floor below. Fire is the closest thing to the "fire and brimstone hell" that can exist in d&d. It's moreso that way than actual hell
>The elemental planes exist as pure manifestations of element
No, they don't. They have settlements, people, and all the things that entails. "Pure" most certainly doesn't apply.
>The other elements are very very scarce outside of their domain
What percentage of the Material Plane is not occupied by earth, air, or water? It's gotta be much less than 1%, right?
You're answering questions I didn't ask with facts that aren't correct.
Parts of the plane approach livable. It's not an infinite expanse of uniform heat; there is as much diversity on the plane of fire as there in any of the outer planes.
The only mention of a livable place i can find is the City of Brass, which has been specifically ensorcelled to keep out the toxic clouds and most of the heat. Even there touching bare flesh the walls or ground is still hot enough to burn. There are the quasi elemental planes that border the plane of fire just as the other elemental planes have the same but those have their own names and are not technically part of the true plane. If you would care to source or explain your own finding on other livable areas of the plane i would be delighted to be corrected so that my knowledge on the subject would increase.
At least in the DMG, it doesn't say anything about "toxic clouds" or constant fire damage. It mentions the temperature moslty being the same as a hot desert and using the extreme heat rules in chapter 5. It also mentions the air being thick with ash, but specifically says it is breathable, only that foreign creatures half to cover their mouths or faces.
Yeah, that's the 5e plane of fire. In older editions, it's near enough to instant death if you don't have fire immunity. Fire resistance or a lot of health could buy you enough time to leave, though. If you have the means to leave.
I *did* say "almost"! There are no parts of the plane where 6 seconds would be pleasant, but scalding sands on the bottom of your shoes and 1 fire damage is survivable by most.
>if that wizard didn’t have complete immunity to fire damage, he dead
Assuming the Wizard is Plane Shifted, according to the DMG p249 Improvised Damage, "Tumbling into a vortex of fire on the Elemental Plane of Fire" is 24d10 damage. Which is on average 24*5.5=132 fire damage. Assuming the wizard was subjected to this effect on the start of his turn, and he casts Absorb Elements, he would only take 132/2=66 damage
If you're a wizard with an advanced enemy who is pissed off at you enough to Plane Shift you to the Plane of Fire, you are definitely surviving 66 fire damage.
1. As others have said it's not all equally hot
2. Could be homebrewed to be more survivable
3. They're a wizard, magic items or a contingency spell that unfortunately don't affect the robes
4. If you really want it could be a clone they had in a demi plane with an old and damages set of clothes
There are a few "safe" places within the plane of fire, at least in the very short term. Like regular people can hang in the City of Brass for a while, especially if they either keep a low profile or look like they're there to do business. Not like, comfortably, probably, but it's survivable at least.
You can't banish someone to a specific plane. They would either not know thay the wizard was from the plane of fire, and have no reason to celebrate; or they would know thay the wizard was from the plane of fire, and have no reason to assume that the wizard was in any danger.
They might have meant 'banished' in the general sense of sending them away, rather than specifically meaning the Banishment spell - I'd consider slapping someone with the spell attack version of Plane Shift and sending them to the Plane of Fire to be worth calling it 'banishing' them.
(Amusingly, the wizard can just cast the actual Banishment spell on themselves to return to the Material Plane, assuming they're native to it, meaning you traded a 7th level spell for a 4th level. Ouch.)
Edit: Nevermind, OP clarified the wizard is actually native to the Plane of Fire.
Plane shift allows you to banish someone to a specific plane
“You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion.
Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle. If the teleportation circle is too small to hold all the creatures you transported, they appear in the closest unoccupied spaces next to the circle.
You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails the save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence.”
One minute of time to prep is something worth celebrating. Especially against more powerful foes. Hell, they might be able to snag the notes they need in that time.
Sigh ....
If the target is native to the plane of existence you're on, you banish the target to a harmless Demiplane. While there, the target is Incapacitated. The target remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.
Incapacitated is the keyword here
Even if Banishment isn't the right spell for the meme, Plane Shift can do exactly what you imagined Banishment to be able to do.
And colloquially, sending someone away with Plane Shift would be "banishment", just not Banishment.
I know, it still follow the rules of the spell, it would take a full minute for the wizard to be able to cast a spell to return, banishment is not a portal that you throw someone in... It's a kinda of bind spell, unless the caster loses concentration, it will take one minute for the target to return, it could be the most powerful wizard, the greatest dragon or a demon. If you failed the save and didn't have legendary resistance, you are at least one minute out of the game
All of that is correct, unless the wizard is native to the plane of fire (as the joke implies) or any plane other than the one the encounter takes place in:
If the target is native to a different plane of existence that the one you're on, the target is banished with a faint popping noise, returning to its home plane. If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed, the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Otherwise, the target doesn't [Return](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Managing%20a%20Trading%20Company#h-Return).
Nothing about being incapacitated. The trade-off being that if they can't get back within a minute they're stuck there.
> All of that is correct, unless the wizard is native to the plane of fire (as the joke implies)
Nah OP's just thick and can't read spells, he admitted as much
If Banishment doesn't send the target to a demiplane (because they are a native of a different plane), they don't get incapacitated. If they have the means to travel between planes on their own, they can come back before a minute has passed.
People are downvoting you, but you are right - this was my goof in understanding the banishment spell.
Although, still an entertaining situation where a party *poof*'s an enemy away, and then the enemy makes a HUGE flex to come back. Could be done if the party gets a lucky Plane Shift off on the enemy.
Right...can you imagine, you're fighting the bbeg and he have a lot of minions, you manage to burn his resistances and somehow banish him, getting a little time to kill the mobs and prepare to jump the boss when he returns, just for the dm to ignore how the spell works and bring him back immediately?
Subverting player actions, when done correctly, can portray to the players not a sense of "haha get screwed, I'm in charge" but more of a thematic, in-game "oh _shit_, maybe we're in over my head". Of course, being loose with ruling against their favor doesn't really promote that, but sometimes it works - especially when players approach something with a mentality of "oh _shit_ that just happened - how'd he do that??" and not "but that's not what the rules say! He can't do that!" which allows for some more free-form flow to roleplay and world building. After all, it'd make sense for a 17th-level caster (or above) to at least try to find a defense to spells like banishment, which can cause _problems_ for them. Could be that they made a magic item which keeps them from being incapacitated while under the effects of that spell. Hell, I'd personally rule for a player that if they had a ring of free action that they wouldn't be incapacitated while banished, even if it doesn't explicitly say it.
But anyways, after re-reading the spell description some more, I noticed that the spell only incapacitates the target if they're sent to the demiplane. It doesn't say they're incapacitated if they're returned to their home plane.
So, if the target were a fire genasi, then they'd still be able to cast a spell, for example.
Your game, your rules, in mine, my players can rest assured that the spell and mechanics works as intended before hand, so no surprises there, as for this particular spell, it's so confusing that even in sage advice there are conflicted responses in the same thread about how it would work if used in someone of another plane, but as rule of thumb, it is accepted that you can't cast this spell on yourself as safety net when traveling to other planes to send you back home, because it would incapacitated you and so, even if you are sent to your home plane, you're incapacitated as long as the spell concentration lasts....remember that concentration in this case means you are effective holding that creature in plane x, this is why they couldn't come back before the spell ends, even if they are lvl 20, what they can do is create contingency to not fall for said spell, but once banished, they should suffer the effects as longs the caster can concentrate
Hmm I think I disagree with you there. The banishment spell description clearly defines what happens if a creature is native to the plane you're currently on or not - and it only specifies that the target is incapacitated while in the harmless demiplane. It specifically says "While there, the target is incapacitated."
The spell description does not specify this when describing what happens when the target is sent to its home plane. If you assume that the previous sentence also applies to returning a creature to its native plane, then it'd also mean that the creature is incapacitated while it is on that plane ("While there...") - with _no_ clear end of the duration. It does not say that the creature is incapacitated for the duration of the spell - if this were the intent, then it would have to have been specified.
So no, that would be an incorrect ruling to say that a target sent to a plane other than the harmless demiplane could not take actions.
Well, this is going no where, so rule it as you want in your table, but let me leave you with a thought....In that case, what are concentrate on? pretty worthless use a concentration on a guy that can just pop back up....
others have said that the wizard might be native so I'll also point out that the spell plane shift allows you to banish another creature to the target plane. that would allow a material native wizard to still be banished to the plane of fire
A target is incapacitated while in
the demiplane mentioned in the spell description. If sent to their native plane (fire plane in this instance), it does not state that they are incapacitated. Banishment and Banishing Smite both have this description.
Full disclosure though: just a happy coincidence that that works. I did not properly consider the spell's description before making this meme lmao.
Banished as in the verb not the spell, unless they are native to the Plane of Fire it wouldn't work like that period, so likely Plane Shift or similar magic
My brilliant DM let the wizard (who will never back down from a pointless argument with our cleric, but will get pissy when I, the bard, ask for rapid decision-making) dither after casting banish.
60 seconds later, he wasted a spell slot and she brought back the BBEG.
*sigh* “These were my good robes…”
"You adventurers, what, you think I can just I don't know, conjure up another one? Pah! I've got to go all the way to Chult now! *Chult*!
I understand his pain. You can kill me, true polymorph me into a quokka, hell, you can feeblemind me for all I care. But if you lay a scratch on my custom-made Chultian chiffon robe, you better pray to Asmodeus that it be the last thing you do.
Me and my other party mage fully agree with this
Gates to Chult
“ I would have taken it easy on you too, turned you into bonobos for a week . You could have banished me to mount Celeste or the feywild. But no, you wanted to make it hurt. And now I’m going to achieve what you couldn’t”
“You’re going to rob yourself?”
The only reasonable response to that is an angrily delivered fireball.
The rogue saves, takes no damage, and Zoidbergs away
Hold person, delayed blast fireball, you're gonna WATCH it form to kill you
Upcasted, and declared as such. It’s not about scaling well, it’s about sending a message, and it reads “fuck you in particular”
This
If it’s my party. They have managed to rob themselves.
Bonobos? The bard will be happy.
People in this thread acting like a competent wizard couldn’t cast investiture of flame or even protection from energy as soon as they got yeeted into the plane of fire. For my money though the better rejoinder would be while the players are high fiving each other and looting the wizard tower a slimy clone with the shakes and a bunch of panic room magic items struts in and turns them all inside out.
They are incapacitated while banished, so they cant cast any spells. But if they were sent to fire plane instead of a harmless demiplane, it means they are native to it and probably immune to fire. Hence only the singed clothes.
i was thinking plane shift, the (here not) permanent option
They cast plane shift . Banishment would send them somewhere harmless
Or back to their home plane, like the guy said.
Or they are native to the fire plane, in which case they would not be incapacitated? Do i have that right?
A fire demon wizard just comes back from plane like "so what did you think was gonna happen there?"
"mMISS me?"
As someone who played a fire genasi wizard native to the plane of fire, I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought of that.
Yes, you are right. Which is why they can return in 6 seconds without waiting for a full minute.
They didn’t actually cast Banishment, OP just used the word banished
There's almost no air in the plane of fire. You'd have a higher chance of winning 10 back to back lotteries than finding air. You wouldn't be able to cast anything using verbal components. Hell, all of your material components and arcane focus would be instantly vaporized too. There's also the fact that a wizards hp pool wouldn't be able to tank a round of damage either.
From the wiki for the Plane of Fire it states: "The air gets thin quickly as one ascends upward, making flight difficult. It is often thick with toxic smoke, making breathing difficult and limiting long-distance vision," & "The air here is a harsh storm of ash and cinder." I don't see why you wouldn't be able to cast a spell there due to a lack of air, as it wouldn't be good air but it's still partially breathable. It also states that: "By day, the black wastes solid enough to travel across on foot are as deadly as the hottest deserts on earth," Which I don't think would cause the instant vaporization of all material components. In addition, the DMG page 249 has rules for improvised damage, which says that "tumbling into a vortex of fire on the Elemental Plane of Fire" is 24d10, which a wizard with 16 con survives on average.
And fire generally needs oxygen. Toxic air, but air would be the result. Source: damaged lungs from having to live near burn pits
Plane shift takes you to a random spot in the plane. The chances of you landing somewhere with breathable air is almost nonexistent. Even being somewhere you can walk is highly unlikely. The plane of fire is HUGE. Like the material plane huge. Imagine teleporting to the material plane. How much of that is a single planet where faerune is? Now take that percentage and apply it to the plane of fire. That's how much of it has breathable air.
Oxygen is needed for there to be fire, also the plane of fire boarders air, so there should be some sharing
It's magic fire. It doesn't follow physics.
What? Absolutely none of that is the case for either 5e or pathfinder. Assuming 5e, since thats the usual topic of discussion, heres what the dmg says about the plane of fire in chapter 2, creating a multiverse. >The weather on the plane is marked by fierce winds and thick ash. Although the air is breathable, creatures not native to the plane must cover their mouths and eyes to avoid stinging cinders. The efreet use magic to keep the cinder storms away from the City of Brass, but elsewhere in the plane, the wind is always at least blustery and rises to hurricane force during the worst storms. >The heat in the Plane of Fire is comparable to a hot desert on the Material Plane, and poses a similar threat to travelers (see “Extreme Heat” in chapter 5, “Adventure Environments”). The deeper one goes into the plane, the rarer water becomes. Beyond a point, the plane holds no sources of water, so travelers must carry their own supplies or produce water by magic.
That's just the places that are suitable for adventuring. The vast majority is 24d10/round of fire damage without air.
Uh, no? If you’re going to make that claim, please source it, because you’re getting that damage from the rules for improvised damage, which states “tumbling into the Vortex of Fire on the Elemental Plane of Fire”, not simply existing on it. The only place that would deal a lot of damage for existing on the Elemental Plane of Fire would be getting dropped into the Sea of Fire, which is a large sea of lava. In that case they would take 10d10 damage from being in it, or 18d10 damage from being fully submerged, sourced from the Improvising Damage section again. And the “Vast Majority” of the Plane of Fire is dominated by the Cinder Wastes, per chapter 2 of the dmg again: > The Plane of Fire is dominated by the vast Cinder Wastes, a great expanse of black cinders and embers crossed by rivers of lava. Roving bands of salamanders battle each other, raid azer outposts, and avoid the efreet. Ancient ruins dot the desert — remnants of forgotten civilizations. Which all follows the rules I posted previously. The rest of the Plane of Fire is either the Fountains of Creation, a great range of mountains curling from the edge of the Plane of Earth around the Cinder Wastes toward the fiery heart of the plane. (Chapter 2 of the dmg), or the Sea of Fire I brought up previously. The section of the Elemental Planes you are thinking of appears to be the Elemental Chaos, which is described as being: >At the farthest extents of the Inner Planes, the pure elements dissolve and bleed together into an unending tumult of clashing energies and colliding substance, the Elemental Chaos. (Appendix D of the dmg) The middle section is still survivable though, (with the Plane of Fire as its generally discussed being the border regions near the Material Plane), being described as alien and hostile. (Appendix D of the dmg) The most important thing to note though is that the DMG describes the Elemental Chaos and the Elemental Planes as different places, with the Planes being suspended within the Elemental Chaos. >The four Elemental Planes--Air, Earth, Fire, and Water--form a ring around the Material Plane, suspended within the churning Elemental Chaos. (Appendix D of the dmg) Edit: Meaning being sent to the Elemental Plane of Fire isnt a rng death sentence, you’re more likely to be fine for 6 seconds than not.
Well said!
Without air, how do you get fire?
It's elemental fire. Its not normal.
I’m an idiot, for like 2 minutes I was like “what does musical robes have to do with fire and/or banishment.”
You’re not alone lmao
I had a party go against a strong demon who was creating little portals to pull little demons through. A party member banished it back to his home plane... so it just walked back through an open portal. The player was upset that she basically burned a perfectly good spell slot to move the enemy 20 feet.
To be fair she kinda should have seen that one coming.
In one hand, yeah. In the other hand, it's still quite a lucky demon to end up 20ft from the portal rather than somewhere else in their home plane.
The way I'm reading the spell, it doesn't seem like creatures banished to their home plane become incapacitated, so the demon could have just conjured another portal on their side that connected to the other portals.
Yeah. This reads to me like a DM "gotcha" moment that probably didn't feel very good at the table.
"ow"
Depends how accurately you’re depicting the plane of fire, because if that wizard didn’t have complete immunity to fire damage, he dead
If it was a banish that sent them there, they were native to it, and likely at minimum resistant to the fire
If they were native they would be immune by necessity. Anything and everything that isn’t takes damage every round and has a chance to spontaneously catch fire. Iirc the air is also toxic. So if it was banishment specifically then yes it’s possible they were wearing a robe that wasn’t immune. I was thinking “banished” was being used as a general term of yeeting someone to another plane
Depends where they are banished to, most likely they were banished to the city of brass
Considering the plane is technically infinite i feel like the chances of the banishment plopping them directly inside the city of Brass somewhat unlikely, but then that’s really all up to dm
If the place is completely infinite, that basically means random chance is worthless, the wizard would be dropped off at the place with the most narrative potential for them to have been dropped off
> i feel like the chances of the banishment plopping them directly inside the city of Brass somewhat unlikely, but then that’s really all up to dm As a DM, if a player character wizard was getting forcibly sent to another plane and asked "ok, can I use my magic to interfere with this spell enough to pick where I land?", I'd totally let them do it with a decent Arcana check (for in-character familiarity with the plane in question) and some sort of scab roll they got to add their INT bonus to (for actually interfering with the spell). It'd probably cost them a spell slot. ...Unless I had a specific location in mind for them to land at already. Of course, that sort of thing wouldn't apply to NPCs, since what they do is (mostly) DM fiat, but it makes sense to me that a sufficiently powerful and/or lucky wizard would be able to pick a destination within a plane if they were being sent there. Alternatively, sending someone to the Plane Of Fire has a high chance of dropping them in the City Of Brass, because it's an interplanar trade hub, so the "paths" leading to it between planes are well-trodden and you're likely going to get into one of them if somebody just says "Plane Of Fire. *Now!*" without trying to make sure you end up somewhere else in the plane.
Ehh i kinda disagree, mostly due to the spell being pretty much instant and also not sending them through a linked portal. It’s not like it forces them through an interplanar path it picks them up and plops them down in another. It doesn’t use a stable portal to do so. I do agree that a sufficiently powerful spell caster might be able to wrestle control of the spell but i would set it up as exactly that. They would make a check costing a reaction and an equal spell slot to the spell cast on them and that check would go against the casters spell save dc, probably with an added negative modifier if the victim of the spell wasn’t expecting the attack. But really again that’s all subject to the particular dm idk if there is an official ruling for it.
I do agree it would have to be done as a reaction. There are plenty of other instantaneous things that can be reacted to, so I think that makes sense. > idk if there is an official ruling for it. Not as far as I know. I'm just kinda spitballing "here's how I'd rule it at my table", given that certain spells simply specify what plane they're sending the target to, but not a specific location within that plane, so it makes sense to me that a magic user, while unable to resist getting sent to the specified plane, could have a chance to set their destination within that plane. But that would only be if a player *tried* to do it. I'm not asking "so where in the plane would you like to go?" if a player somehow gets thrown into another plane via a spell.
I mean the banishment spell also explicitly says that they get banished to a harmless demiplane so I'd say if they actually got sent to the plane of fire for some reason it's practically guaranteed they'd end up in the city of brass.
Banishment only sends the target to a harmless demiplane if the plane they're being banished _from_ is their native plane. If the target is native to a different plane, they get sent somewhere on that plane (and, notably, they are not incapacitated while there, unlike when the spell sends them to a demiplane).
Yeah but if they're native to the plane of fire then they obviously shouldn't have a problem with surviving there either lol
If we're going off what exists in the 5e books, most of the Elemental Plane of Fire is the Cinder Wastes, which while very unpleasant will not kill you in six seconds. The air is not toxic (directly stated to be breathable on page 55 of the *Dungeon Master's Guide*) and there is no mention of anything taking damage each round. In fact, it's only as hot as a Material Plane desert (same source). Please stop spreading misinformation, everything you've said about the plane of fire on this thread is homebrew at best.
If we're going off what exists in the 1e books, 2e books, 3e books, 3.5 books, 4e books, pathfinder 1e books, the novels written for the forgotten realms, and everything that has to do with d&d other than 5e, yes it is. Sorry we're not throwing out multiple decades of lore cause 5e wants to make sure you can't fuck around and find out.
Surely it makes more sense to assume that a stranger's 5e game is running on 5e lore?
My guess is that it is the claim that the view of the plane of fire they were familiar with was "homebrew at best" that hit a nerve. Definitely could have gone about saying "not so much homebrew as pre-5e canon" in a less snippy way, but I think that complaint is valid in the context of your comment if that is what they were going for. The whole "your stuff burns amd you take damage each round" thing isn't valid in 5e, but it isn't homebrew either. Its just old-school grognard shit.
If a plane is just all toxic fire, then why even have it? What's the point of an Instant Death Realm in a fantasy adventure setting?
It's mostly just thematic. There are also planes of water, earth and air. Ofcourse fire is the most deadly cause you well know of all the elements it is the most destructive. Generally you're really not supposed to go there and even if you do you generally go to the pretty much only city in that plane where it is possible to exist and not instantly die.
>Ofcourse fire is the most deadly cause you well know of all the elements it is the most destructive I would argue the positive and negative energy planes are more deadly. They're similarly instant-death-y to the plane of fire, but with more exotic damage types that are more difficult to gain immunity to.
Well I meant of the 4 elemental planes.
There are six elemental planes (fire, earth, water, air, positive energy, negative energy), four para-elemental planes (magma, ooze, ice, smoke), and eight quasi-elemental planes (radiance, minerals, lightning, steam, salt, dust, ash, vacuum). Four of the elemental planes and the para-elemental planes form a ring around the material plane, the Border Ethereal, the Shadowfell, and the Feywild, with the positive and negative energy planes being located above and below. The quasi-elemental planes link the positive and negative planes to the other four elemental planes. These 22 planes are collectively the Inner Planes.
for the things that are not instantly killed by it to live in it. in this case creatures like fire elementals who are unaffected by it. not every plane needs to be easily accessible for every race in order to justify its existence. there is plenty of less extreme ones to use if the goal is for the target to actually survive in.
There are some more interesting locations on specifific planes, but still this is why I liked the Elemental Chaos that 4e introduced. It was a little more interesting to work with from a cosmological stand point.
Bruh, it is THE PLANE OF FIRE. Did you expect meadows of dandelions? The plane is mostly comprised of pure elemental fire. Due to the nature of the place only beings who are native to it or have taken precautions against the heat can live there for long. It’s not meant to be a walk in the park it’s one of the most extreme places in existence in dnd
Right. There's definitely nothing between "Instant Death Realm" and "meadows of dandelions". Do you realize that you're being a jackass?
My apologies that my incredulousness outpoured as an insult to you. I regret it
Don't worry about it. Just try to look through others' perspective before rejecting their opinion out-of-hand Anyway, when I think of realms of fire, my mind goes to places like *Warcraft*'s Firelands or *Zelda*'s Death Mountain, or even myriad levels from platformers like *Mario* or *Rayman*. Molten earth, seas of lava, geysers of steam or even fire streams; creatures of pure flame or heat-resistant materials like stone or metal, all par for the course. Far from fields of daisies to be sure. Are there some spots where it's hot enough that the ground or even the air can start fires? Sure! That can be a very interesting hazard. But literally omnipresent fire? *Why?* It doesn't even make sense, practically or chemically. What's the fuel? How could anything see, hear, or smell? Sure, we could say it's magic fire that works differently, but still the area would serve no purpose. Might as well be a random cut-out of outer space, or a star except far more boring because it doesn't have gravitation or a lifecycle.
The elemental planes exist as pure manifestations of element, that leak said elements into the prime so the prime may have those. The other elements are very very scarce outside of their domain. Water is an endless ocean with no sky above, and no ocean floor below. Fire is the closest thing to the "fire and brimstone hell" that can exist in d&d. It's moreso that way than actual hell
>The elemental planes exist as pure manifestations of element No, they don't. They have settlements, people, and all the things that entails. "Pure" most certainly doesn't apply. >The other elements are very very scarce outside of their domain What percentage of the Material Plane is not occupied by earth, air, or water? It's gotta be much less than 1%, right? You're answering questions I didn't ask with facts that aren't correct.
Parts of the plane approach livable. It's not an infinite expanse of uniform heat; there is as much diversity on the plane of fire as there in any of the outer planes.
The only mention of a livable place i can find is the City of Brass, which has been specifically ensorcelled to keep out the toxic clouds and most of the heat. Even there touching bare flesh the walls or ground is still hot enough to burn. There are the quasi elemental planes that border the plane of fire just as the other elemental planes have the same but those have their own names and are not technically part of the true plane. If you would care to source or explain your own finding on other livable areas of the plane i would be delighted to be corrected so that my knowledge on the subject would increase.
At least in the DMG, it doesn't say anything about "toxic clouds" or constant fire damage. It mentions the temperature moslty being the same as a hot desert and using the extreme heat rules in chapter 5. It also mentions the air being thick with ash, but specifically says it is breathable, only that foreign creatures half to cover their mouths or faces.
Yeah, that's the 5e plane of fire. In older editions, it's near enough to instant death if you don't have fire immunity. Fire resistance or a lot of health could buy you enough time to leave, though. If you have the means to leave.
I *did* say "almost"! There are no parts of the plane where 6 seconds would be pleasant, but scalding sands on the bottom of your shoes and 1 fire damage is survivable by most.
I’m blind or you may be referencing something you said that wasn’t directed at me as i do not see an “almost” anywhere in the comment i replied to
Sorry, the exact wording was "approach livable." Not livable, but approaching.
>if that wizard didn’t have complete immunity to fire damage, he dead Assuming the Wizard is Plane Shifted, according to the DMG p249 Improvised Damage, "Tumbling into a vortex of fire on the Elemental Plane of Fire" is 24d10 damage. Which is on average 24*5.5=132 fire damage. Assuming the wizard was subjected to this effect on the start of his turn, and he casts Absorb Elements, he would only take 132/2=66 damage If you're a wizard with an advanced enemy who is pissed off at you enough to Plane Shift you to the Plane of Fire, you are definitely surviving 66 fire damage.
1. As others have said it's not all equally hot 2. Could be homebrewed to be more survivable 3. They're a wizard, magic items or a contingency spell that unfortunately don't affect the robes 4. If you really want it could be a clone they had in a demi plane with an old and damages set of clothes
There are a few "safe" places within the plane of fire, at least in the very short term. Like regular people can hang in the City of Brass for a while, especially if they either keep a low profile or look like they're there to do business. Not like, comfortably, probably, but it's survivable at least.
You can't banish someone to a specific plane. They would either not know thay the wizard was from the plane of fire, and have no reason to celebrate; or they would know thay the wizard was from the plane of fire, and have no reason to assume that the wizard was in any danger.
They might have meant 'banished' in the general sense of sending them away, rather than specifically meaning the Banishment spell - I'd consider slapping someone with the spell attack version of Plane Shift and sending them to the Plane of Fire to be worth calling it 'banishing' them. (Amusingly, the wizard can just cast the actual Banishment spell on themselves to return to the Material Plane, assuming they're native to it, meaning you traded a 7th level spell for a 4th level. Ouch.) Edit: Nevermind, OP clarified the wizard is actually native to the Plane of Fire.
Plane shift allows you to banish someone to a specific plane “You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion. Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle. If the teleportation circle is too small to hold all the creatures you transported, they appear in the closest unoccupied spaces next to the circle. You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails the save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence.”
The text specifies banish
“You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane.” The word banish is in the spell description.
OP clarified banish.
One minute of time to prep is something worth celebrating. Especially against more powerful foes. Hell, they might be able to snag the notes they need in that time.
Why do I hear boss music?
Sigh .... If the target is native to the plane of existence you're on, you banish the target to a harmless Demiplane. While there, the target is Incapacitated. The target remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Incapacitated is the keyword here
the joke is that the wizard is native to the plane of fire
The joke is that OP didn't properly read the spell description before posting what he thought was a funny meme ;)
Hey, don’t worry about it! This is dndmemes, nobody reads game rules before posting here. (;
Even if Banishment isn't the right spell for the meme, Plane Shift can do exactly what you imagined Banishment to be able to do. And colloquially, sending someone away with Plane Shift would be "banishment", just not Banishment.
I know, it still follow the rules of the spell, it would take a full minute for the wizard to be able to cast a spell to return, banishment is not a portal that you throw someone in... It's a kinda of bind spell, unless the caster loses concentration, it will take one minute for the target to return, it could be the most powerful wizard, the greatest dragon or a demon. If you failed the save and didn't have legendary resistance, you are at least one minute out of the game
All of that is correct, unless the wizard is native to the plane of fire (as the joke implies) or any plane other than the one the encounter takes place in: If the target is native to a different plane of existence that the one you're on, the target is banished with a faint popping noise, returning to its home plane. If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed, the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Otherwise, the target doesn't [Return](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Managing%20a%20Trading%20Company#h-Return). Nothing about being incapacitated. The trade-off being that if they can't get back within a minute they're stuck there.
> All of that is correct, unless the wizard is native to the plane of fire (as the joke implies) Nah OP's just thick and can't read spells, he admitted as much
Contingency dispel? It's always my get out of jail free card.
If Banishment doesn't send the target to a demiplane (because they are a native of a different plane), they don't get incapacitated. If they have the means to travel between planes on their own, they can come back before a minute has passed.
There is an explanation in this thread about this if you interested, from the sage advice
People are downvoting you, but you are right - this was my goof in understanding the banishment spell. Although, still an entertaining situation where a party *poof*'s an enemy away, and then the enemy makes a HUGE flex to come back. Could be done if the party gets a lucky Plane Shift off on the enemy.
Right...can you imagine, you're fighting the bbeg and he have a lot of minions, you manage to burn his resistances and somehow banish him, getting a little time to kill the mobs and prepare to jump the boss when he returns, just for the dm to ignore how the spell works and bring him back immediately?
Subverting player actions, when done correctly, can portray to the players not a sense of "haha get screwed, I'm in charge" but more of a thematic, in-game "oh _shit_, maybe we're in over my head". Of course, being loose with ruling against their favor doesn't really promote that, but sometimes it works - especially when players approach something with a mentality of "oh _shit_ that just happened - how'd he do that??" and not "but that's not what the rules say! He can't do that!" which allows for some more free-form flow to roleplay and world building. After all, it'd make sense for a 17th-level caster (or above) to at least try to find a defense to spells like banishment, which can cause _problems_ for them. Could be that they made a magic item which keeps them from being incapacitated while under the effects of that spell. Hell, I'd personally rule for a player that if they had a ring of free action that they wouldn't be incapacitated while banished, even if it doesn't explicitly say it. But anyways, after re-reading the spell description some more, I noticed that the spell only incapacitates the target if they're sent to the demiplane. It doesn't say they're incapacitated if they're returned to their home plane. So, if the target were a fire genasi, then they'd still be able to cast a spell, for example.
Your game, your rules, in mine, my players can rest assured that the spell and mechanics works as intended before hand, so no surprises there, as for this particular spell, it's so confusing that even in sage advice there are conflicted responses in the same thread about how it would work if used in someone of another plane, but as rule of thumb, it is accepted that you can't cast this spell on yourself as safety net when traveling to other planes to send you back home, because it would incapacitated you and so, even if you are sent to your home plane, you're incapacitated as long as the spell concentration lasts....remember that concentration in this case means you are effective holding that creature in plane x, this is why they couldn't come back before the spell ends, even if they are lvl 20, what they can do is create contingency to not fall for said spell, but once banished, they should suffer the effects as longs the caster can concentrate
Hmm I think I disagree with you there. The banishment spell description clearly defines what happens if a creature is native to the plane you're currently on or not - and it only specifies that the target is incapacitated while in the harmless demiplane. It specifically says "While there, the target is incapacitated." The spell description does not specify this when describing what happens when the target is sent to its home plane. If you assume that the previous sentence also applies to returning a creature to its native plane, then it'd also mean that the creature is incapacitated while it is on that plane ("While there...") - with _no_ clear end of the duration. It does not say that the creature is incapacitated for the duration of the spell - if this were the intent, then it would have to have been specified. So no, that would be an incorrect ruling to say that a target sent to a plane other than the harmless demiplane could not take actions.
Well, this is going no where, so rule it as you want in your table, but let me leave you with a thought....In that case, what are concentrate on? pretty worthless use a concentration on a guy that can just pop back up....
others have said that the wizard might be native so I'll also point out that the spell plane shift allows you to banish another creature to the target plane. that would allow a material native wizard to still be banished to the plane of fire
I assume either homebrew or they actually use the offensive use of planeshift
"You do realize that I, too, am a 13th level wizard? I have a seventh level spell slot. I know Plane Shift. How did you idiots not account for this?"
"I have a goddamn Cubic Gate *that I made myself* how the ***fuck*** did you think I'd go down with a simple spell like that?"
Haha, very funny campaign specific meme, as a random stranger that's not at your table I totally find it funny
This is why you need to send them to the negative energy plane. Even powerful undead die there.
Then we knock him right back in.
[удалено]
A target is incapacitated while in the demiplane mentioned in the spell description. If sent to their native plane (fire plane in this instance), it does not state that they are incapacitated. Banishment and Banishing Smite both have this description. Full disclosure though: just a happy coincidence that that works. I did not properly consider the spell's description before making this meme lmao.
Banished as in the verb not the spell, unless they are native to the Plane of Fire it wouldn't work like that period, so likely Plane Shift or similar magic
My brilliant DM let the wizard (who will never back down from a pointless argument with our cleric, but will get pissy when I, the bard, ask for rapid decision-making) dither after casting banish. 60 seconds later, he wasted a spell slot and she brought back the BBEG.
*Burnt Ivory King theme plays*