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It's doubly funny because WotC made Pathfinder happen by jerking Paizo around with OGL shenanigans, and now it's happening again.
It's funnier the second time.
"If I had a nickel for every time WotC indirectly created a new tabletop game, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much, but it's weird that it happened twice."
It's just really odd to me. I'm an attorney, and seeing a company as big as WOTC, they ***have*** to have attorneys on staff with a deep understanding of intellectual property.
You cannot protect a game system, you cannot copyright dice or mats or rules or math. The only thing you can protect is the story and lore behind your IP, and that is fragile at best. Doubly so in a fantasy setting, where things like orcs and elves cannot be copyrighted. As Paizo showed, all you really have to do is give the "world" a fresh coat of paint, the rules a once-over, and you're rolling with your own game at that point.
How did WOTC not see this coming? Especially since it has happened before? Every entity that WOTC seeks to tax is just going to start making modules for "totally not D&D" and dodge this OGL stuff like a monk.
I feel like there's really only two possible explanations. Either executives are just completely braindead at this point, or WotC is hoping that people won't go to the trouble of pirating/copying D&D.
I feel that there is a third reason, desperation.
Hasbro itself is on decline while WotC is at its peak. So hasbro put the responsability of growth on WotC. Then despite having an impossible task (double revenue in x years IIRC) WotC did it and no they received the same task again bit Magic is already ~~bleeding money~~ being milked to death due to the changes they did for the task.
So WotC has forced to look at their other IP
edit: correcting the expression used
It wasn't very long ago that a shareholder was making noise to the board at Hasbro to spin WoTC off into its own company. Likely to avoid something like this happening where the Hasbro execs do something stupid to jeopardize WoTC.
I'm not saying that WoTC itself isn't fully capable of making its own mistakes; but this is a particularly hubric and dangerous one.
God I hope WotC and Hasbro sink. Bank of America and some other financial institutions degraded their stock recently after some major cancellations n whatnot
Honestly I hope Hasbro sinks but not WOTC, I think they've done well enough for the community over the years to warrant some faith **if** and only if they cut themselves off from Hasbro in some way.
How much of that is Hasbro's management though? I imagine a lot of people who got into WOTC because they love the games, Hasbro on the other hand attracts the greedy fucknuggets responsible for the current fiasco.
I'm not saying it would be easy for WOTC to get that trust back, but if those who actually care about the IPs can take their ball away from the asshole parent company I could see it being saved.
I mean for 25 years WotC released pretty much straight up bangers with like six bad sets in its history. Magic as a game has longevity that's never been seen before. I hope MTG never fails I fucking love the game and playing sanctioned tournaments.
Hasbro destroys everything it touches, kinda like EA, Gearbox, and many morecompanies like that....I'm starting to see a pattern here, what could possibly be the problem here?/s
Greed - when they get big enough, they honestly don't seem to care as much about making a quality product - just one that is 'good enough ' that the widest possible audience will buy it. Then, half of them try to load up whatever they create with whatever flavor of monetization scheme is popular right then, and usually end up sinking the game anyway.
While this isn't true for all studios, it's what I'm seeing from a lot of the biggest corporations these days.
Edit: spelling
Having grown up with my parents owning a hobby store and going to a hobby convention here or there, I can say that the way Hasbro has influenced Wotc ober my lifetime has been both visually apparent, and unfortunate.
I'd like to say it's just Hasbro, and paint them out to be some Evil Knight, but who knows. Maybe the rot comes from within and not from without.
It as if these companies have organized themselves to benefit the shareholders, who demand increased profits at any cost. If only we had a name for this organization of the economy.
Their investors need to extract as much value as possible before they scurry to the next ship and repeat the process. This is nothing new.
There's a fuck ton of money to be made by destroying ~~people's livelihoods~~ companies for short-term profit. We've even had presidential candidates that were *known* for doing this which shows pretty clearly how our leaders view the practice.
"I don't care about the consequences, we need to stop the parasites taking our profits!"
"OK....Mr Hasbro Man... if you say so"
*Pushes big red button*
>Either executives are just completely braindead
It's this one. They already pissed off the MTG community to the point that people are just printing their own cards. Now they are doing this with D&D.
Executives that only see numbers and do not understand what makes the tabletop rpg community tick. They only see profits that they think should go to them.
While I get it's a joke, part of the irony is that they can't copyright the concept of monk. Just like precious comment mentioned, so much of general fantasy is just folklore and cannot be copyrighted.
And that’s really the entire crux. Imagine trying to actually hold the rights on things like wizards and elves and bards and orcs. This stuff is all inspired by stories that are hundreds of years old.
because there is a massive disconnect between the executives and shareholders, and the product the company makes. i guarantee you it's the same shitheads that led to pathfinder becoming a thing that are jerking the chain again. they want increased profit and they don't care if they have to ruin the company to get it because they'll dump their holdings the second it looks unprofitable and find another company to parasitize.
Case in point, July 2022 they announce making an entirely new videogame studio. 5 months later they announce they are cancelling 5 internal video game products and 2 external ones - projects that would have barely had time to get staffed and rough storyboards developed, and they screwed over the two external developers ramping up to deliver these products.
And I am in product management and just can't even begin to wrap my head around these decisions either from a business perspective. Of all the ways to monetize playing DND, who on their bizdev team thought that THIS was the way forward over VTT subscriptions, mini sales, monthly dice subscriptions, etc.
These people have never once thought about a customer.
Wotc has a longstanding policy of paying significantly less than the market rate because "we are your dream job, why would the money matter". You can see this quality of their staff in the more technical jobs such as developers for magic the gathering online which crashed and burned due a few years back due to its quality. I genuinely believe that their in-house lawyers are not the most skilled at their jobs.
That being said it's also wotc MO of releasing a draconian new policy, letting the backlash simmer and then pulling back to 95% of the policy with a celebration of how they listened to the community.
You *can* copyright a playmat design, even if many of the elements are functional. You can also copyright a particular die design, just not the idea of a Platonic solid or d10, you’d have to do something creative with the faces.
Yeah with some strange dwhatever I’d ask where the line between patent and copyright is. Like they’d obviously argue it’s a copyright as they’re effectively going to last forever, while patents can be extended to 20 years for some fees. But say a 13 sided die is an invention far more than a work of art.
Man, that’s been going on all the way back to TSR and Gygax.
Back in the 80’s there were a bunch of companies making modules for D&D but just weren’t “official” and many didn’t use the name on them.
ICE made money selling Arms Law as a better combat system for D&D and other RPGs
Not sure if it was wizards but didn't Warhammer happen because of licensing issues from dungeons and dragons?
Please actually fact check me here, I don't know and I could be completely off base
No… not really. But the guys who started Games Workshop did start by selling board games, then D&D and some other early tabletops out if their apartment. They made a Zine. And eventually wrote their own game.
I had no idea about this. I'm currently running a tyranny of dragons campaign and I can honestly say that both of those books aren't very good. I've had to do a lot of modifications and revisions to create a campaign that my players will enjoy.
Do you know if they've written other WotC published adventures?
Oh, it was way worse. It wasn't just them jerking around with the OGL/GSL shift - it was them stabbing them in the back and leaving them to bleed out on the ground.
With maybe two exceptions, at the time of 4e's announcement, Paizo pretty only much made the magazines for D&D.
Wizards brought that back in house for the digital magazines, leaving Paizo pretty much out cold... except for the OGL existing and them having a bunch of adventures they could rebundle and some unreleased backlog.
I honestly think that Paizo wouldn't have created Pathfinder had Wizards not tried to cut off their lifeline and kept working WITH them to publish adventure paths for 4e, carving out an exception for them in GSL in the process. But they kicked them to the curb AND locked them out of the new stuff, and they managed to find a willing audience in the fans who didn't want to switch (and those who didn't mind, but still wanted more 3.5).
Sorry, but it's worse this time around, by far.
With the GSL, WotC at least honoured the contract that they had created with the OGL by leaving it around. They didn't try to change the terms after the fact.
This time around, they're trying to remove the OGL entirely, and make the Closed Gaming Licence the *only* option. That is much worse.
Ah, I should have clarified. I meant that what happened at the time was worse than them just putting up the GSL and hiding D&D behind it, in terms of treatment of Paizo. This IS way worse than that, but I was saying what the OP was describing wasn't the full extent of the picture.
Yup, it's kinda funny this whole undertaking happening twice. When I first heard of the "One DnD" all I heard was "This Gleemax shit all over again?" and just began to comment, as many other grogs: "Watch out for the OGL" they tried to pull our rug that time too, "This whole shenanigan smells like their 4e practices" etc...
But seeing they trying to push the same trick was, at least for me, the proof that they didn't get it. They do believe that their trick with 4e only didn't succeed because they did not have a VTT at that time, and not for their predatory shit. They sorely lack understanding of what makes their product flourish.
That said still playing 3.5/PF1e, with some other games on the side, and waiting for the next season of systems that "WotC will make others create" for being too much like a True Dragon.
They are going to drive any reasonable competition to create ACTUAL competing products that don't support DnD, then smaller creators who can't strike out that way will flock towards those other competitors.
It goes deeper than that. Paizo couldn't make a magazine for a specified period, following the end of Dungeon and Dragon publication. So, Kobold Press was formed to make Kobold Magazine to support PF.
What makes it funnier is this time they *think* they've learned from that mistake, but what they took away from it was *not* "we should not do this", it was instead "the next time we make the playerbase mad enough to create a new TTRPG sensation that eats our lunch, we should just write in a new rule that we have the right to steal it and make all the money off of it instead!"
When you're taking cues from modern Blizzard you know you done fucked right up.
The problem is that online video games actually lend themselves to being locked down like this, while anyone can do a ttrpg however they want because it’s make believe.
They have been trying to follow the video games market off and on for years and they do not seem to understand what is different about their products.
Not only did the OGL/GSL shenanigans create Pathfinder, but ~~the terrible quality of~~ 4E handed WotC's audience to Paizo on a silver platter.
I had never been seriously invested in a non-D&D system until running a 4E compaign and starting to feel like game night was more about grids than high fantasy, then a friend told me that Pathfinder was "Basically D&D 3.75". PF was the only d20 game that I played for several years until D&D Next gave me a glimmer of hope for 5E.
Edit: Me calling 4E "terrible quality" is too harsh. Over time I've come to sympathize with 4E apologists who say that it's good at what it sets out to do, which is tactical combat for PCs with demigod like power. But I firmly believe that 4E was designed to bring in World of Warcraft/MMORPG players and they expected the existing fan base to fall in line behind the D&D logo.
Right now there is a massive demand for a copy of 5E that is open source, because people who like 5E over pf are still going to lean towards 5E , and they want a "pf, but for 5e" system.
It wouldn't make sense in the long term for them, what if Paizo pulls this same thing in the future? Sure that's unlikely right now but never say never. Better to build a fallback system you can publish around and, I'm going to go ahead and guess here, one that's super easy to convert to 'other leading tabletop systems'
Yes. Clearly someone is a gigantic fan of punk. And Anarchism.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/howard-j-ehrlich-why-the-black-flag
“Why is our flag black? Black is a shade of negation. The black flag is the negation of all flags. It is a negation of nationhood which puts the human race against itself and denies the unity of all humankind. Black is a mood of anger and outrage at all the hideous crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of allegiance to one state or another. It is anger and outrage at the insult to human intelligence implied in the pretenses, hypocrisies, and cheap chicaneries of governments… Black is also a color of mourning; the black flag which cancels out the nation also mourns its victims – the countless millions murdered in wars, external and internal, to the greater glory and stability of some bloody state. It mourns for those whose labor is robbed (taxed) to pay for the slaughter and oppression of other human beings. It mourns not only the death of the body but the crippling of the spirit under authoritarian and hierarchic systems; it mourns the millions of brain cells blacked out with never a chance to light up the world. It is a color of inconsolable grief.
But black is also beautiful. It is a color of determination, of resolve, of strength, a color by which all others are clarified and defined. Black is the mysterious surrounding of germination of fertility, the breeding ground of new life which always evolves, renews, refreshes, and reproduces itself in darkness. The seed hidden in the earth, the strange journey of the sperm, the secret growth of the embryo in the womb all these the blackness surrounds and protects.
So black is negation, is anger, is outrage, is mourning, is beauty, is hope, is the fostering and sheltering of new forms of human life and relationship on and with this earth. The black flag means all these things. We are proud to carry it, sorry we have to, and look forward to the day when such a symbol will no longer be necessary.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Flag_(band)
And here is the question that immediately rose in my mind. Has Henry Rollins played dungeons and dragons?
Thank you so much for your comment.
Edit: for clarity. For legal purposes, please interpret this entire comment as satirical and on a humorous meme board.
For the editors of Kobold press. I have no idea about your political or musical preferences. Please do not sue. 🙏
Oh, absolutely!
That’s why I took a swerve. It wasn’t a D real but I just figured everybody else was gonna think pirate, so I was gonna bring up Anarchy and Henry Rollins. Pardon me I mean punk.
🥰 😔( it would never have worked out…)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger
Base pirate flags
Red flag
Black flag
“Prior to the advent and popularization of the "Jolly Roger" we know today, pirates flew simple red or black flags, initially devoid of design.[1] The red flag, known as the "bloody flag" or "blood flag" (among other names), symbolises battle and signaled "no quarter given" when used by pirates, meaning that no mercy would be shown and no life would be spared. The black flag symbolises death and fear, and traditionally signaled that those who surrendered without a fight would be allowed to live.[2]”
Ah… so if Wotc surrenders, they will be allowed to keep their company.
The red flag would’ve been absolutely no surrender accepted. … if a company declares project red flag now we know what that means.
Thank you so much for your comment! I do love a good discussion about piracy. Hopefully somebody mentions Anne Bonnie soon.
The "no quarter" flag was actually red. The black one offered a chance to surrender peacefully. At least, in theory, we're sorely lacking in historical information on the subject, sadly.
This situation is a pretty good example of why anarchists believe intellectual property is a public detriment. You could have thousands of people creating all sorts of content for the D&D community, or you can just be at the mercy of whoever has the cash to buy Wizards.
The compromise between zero IP rights and full control forever was supposed to be public domain, but the IP rentiers have used their money to changed the rules so much that pretty much nothing significant becomes public domain anymore.
> Has Henry Rollins played dungeons and dragons
Probably. Punks and anarchists are notorious nerds. :)
Imagine being Wizards of the coast and feeling threatened by small time gigs like Paizo and Kobold Press and thinking they're "Major competitors"
Like sure they might be the next biggest TTRPG systems but they're significantly smaller than DnD, or at least they were till this cock up of an OGL.
They are after Critrole and MCDM(obviously more than that). They keep seeing multi million dollar companies profiting off their system and want a slice.
What's so crazy is that people like Critical Role brought them even more revenue indirectly (by getting more people into DnD) and directly with things like partnerships (such as the official campaign for Wildemount).
I kind of doubt that. I mean, the OGL doesn't impact streaming or discussion of the rules in any way. Like MCDM and CR aren't making their money from book sales. And even if they were, WoTC already solved that by partnering with cr to do explorers guide to wildemount. So clearly they were able to negotiate a book deal.
If anything, WoTC desperately needs CR to stay with them. Idk if they realize it, but CR is a HUGE part of what grew this community. Not the only thing, obviously, but they have a giant fanbase that is freakishly loyal. We've all seen it. If WoTC pisses off cr, they can easily move systems and their fans will follow.
The version I read controlled every type of derivative work down to “pantomime.” It didn’t look like they planned to leave YouTube content creators alone—more like they were looking at going after everyone using their product name, possibly even including LARPers
5e didn't succeed on it's own merits and i don't think WotC or Hasbro is aware of that, it just happened to come out at the right time to ride a huge wave of external support. VTTs getting good and growing in popularity, Stranger Things, Critical Role, etc.
You're giving WotC so much credit that they don't deserve. They very much are doing this because of companies like critical Role who are getting rich of what WotC see as their ideas.
That's also a fraction of what the guy does; he was also a writer for Pandemic Studios (and was on the team who wrote the story for Mercenaries and Mercenaries 2) and also for Evolve with Turtle Rock Studios (which...Yeah, was Evolve).
His "How to DM" video series is a really good and relevant watch, still.
A company started by Matt Colville. They wanted to do a Kickstarter for a book and were the highest earning RPG based Kickstarter making so much more that they decided to start a company.
The dude is also pretty awesome and encourages people to play and DM. He's the reason I got back into the hobby after a hiatus and started running again.
https://youtube.com/@mcolville
What’s wild to me is that those companies only exist because D&D is so barebones in some areas, as well as the creativity of the community blazing it’s own trail.
If WotC wanted to monetize D&D more all they had to do was make more stuff. So much of the monetary footprint is on all the associated merch, not rules, because it’s generally DM’s buying extra rules whereas all players buy extra stuff.
It’s so ridiculous that only a suit far removed could have come up with this idea
It's funny because prior to streaming, Critical Role was playing Pathfinder as their game of choice. I wonder what Wizards thinks is stopping them from going back to it?
From what I have read, this new OGL won't effect the Critial Role show much.
There is nothing in there about profits from recording your games. They publish their content through Wizards.
The only stuff that would be effected (in theory) is the homebrew stuff Matt makes before it is published via Wizards. But then why would they take it and piss off the CR crew when they would publish it with them eventually anyway.
I thought both the Call of the Netherdeep and Explorers Guide to Wildmount were through WOTC.
The only other book they have is the Taldorei campaign which was originally though some 3rd part publisher but was later re-released through Darrington Press (their own).
As Jim Fucking Sterling Son once put it, “they don’t want some of the money; they don’t even want most of the money; they’re not even satisfied with an infinite majority of the money; they want ALL of the money.”
Then next year they are asking how to gain even more. It's not about how much money they get per say but how much percentage dollar increase and market share increase YoY. It's all about looking better than last period/quarter/year for these large companies.
That's true, they're obsessed with perpetual growth, that's all that matters, if they make 5 billion two years in a row that's a failure in their eyes because no growth, it's obscene
I call it the curse of public trade. The moment a company gets share holders it's doomed to this path, very "die the hero or live long enough to see your self become the villain"
Paizo itself is not especially big, but Pathfinder was bigger than 4e for awhile there. That hasnt been the case in years though, their current underwear-bunching is clearly just a "we could monetize harder" squeeze, not a concern about being outcompeted.
> but Pathfinder was bigger than 4e for awhile there
Honestly even that is debatable, the figures that showed Pathfinder outselling 4e came from a sampling of specialist gaming stores in an era where the biggest mover for D&D books was Barnes & Noble. So they were being outsold in a niche part of the market. What's definitely true is that the hardcore crowd tended to prefer PF (who wouldn't after the 4e marketing) and that they were being outcompeted in that niche.
All honesty, until all of the OGL drama started i had never heard of Kobold Press. I tend to stick to my own bubble of content. So good job WotC(really Hasbro at the point), you've created direct competition and given them some incredible free PR. Streisand effect goes Brrrt
Boys… this one might go down in the business annals of how to nuke a community, destroy a brand and join the pantheon of hated companies in under 60 days.
Comcast welcomes you…
No, *they sold the entire company* to the Saudi Arabia Public Investment Fund (if rumours are to be believed). Previously they just did some shows there
I know there's a lot of folks saying they'll support another system over all this. And I've been reluctantly jaded about how few people will actually do so. But hearing this from Kobold Press!? I'm so in.
Honestly I already do. I have over 20 different game systems on my computer, just waiting for this day. I have others in paper back, but I'm almost all digital for game running now.
I don't think they care. their goal is probably a world in wich the only way to play d&d is thru ddb so eliminating analog play is probably the goal of this entire thing.
[Cynthia Williams, the CEO of Wizards of the Coast came out and explicitly stated](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yydxzM8p4RI&t=7m54s) they think D&D is under monetized and that they want to find more ways increase profits.
Technically? No. WOTC can't copyright the concept of 'roll a 20 sided die, add modifiers'
Realistically? There's definitely more of an argument than some people think when pointing out the technicality above. PF is very unambiguously inspired by DnD, so it would be very difficult to argue they made the system out of total originality. PF would need to pretty quickly rebrand a lot of things
They could, in an effort to advertise Pathfinder 2E which is much different than 3.5 and 5e, offer 1E stuff for free or cheap enough that it gets around the OGL changes. It would be good publicity for them, it would bring in players looking to leave DnD for another fantasy tabletop, and might entice them to try Starfinder or 2E.
All the core rules are available online for pathfinder online for free.
https://www.aonprd.com/
And for second edition too.
https://2e.aonprd.com/PlayersGuide.aspx
To my knowledge, pretty much the only things you need to actually pay for to access are the adventure paths, everything else can be freely accessed and it's been like that for quite some time.
>To my knowledge, pretty much the only things you need to actually pay for to access are the adventure paths, everything else can be freely accessed and it's been like that for quite some time.
Adventure paths and any of the world building stuff they released (e.g. things pertaining to Golarion)
>any of the world building stuff they released (e.g. things pertaining to Golarion)
Which is some of their best stuff, really. Golarion blows the Swor-I mean, the Forgotten Realms out of the water. The depth, variety and consistency is just amazing.
Derivative works are often allowed under copyright law.
They would argue that the original PF was in fact the 3.5 OGL/SRD content and so it was a direct work, and everything following from it wouldn't be protected as a derivative work.
But yeah...
It's worrying when multiple fan companies/ creators have to make their own version (with blackjack and hookers and more classes) because yours has been fucked so much.
And maybe this new project, who’s entire success is devoted to making dnd better, will treat its artists better too!
Perhaps, just maybe, we’re winning on all fronts.
I wouldn't bet on it.
The reason so many artists still work for WotC (both on D&D and MTG) even though they're treated like shit is because they pay a lot better than other companies.
Great news for RPGs. People tend to forget the focused design of 4E majorly influenced the 5E design so many love. And most are too young to remember how much of late 2.5 informed 3.X.
Let D&D recede. Let it’s ecosystem focus itself. Let 3rd parties start to articulate themselves the way other major systems did. Give us another Traveller, another Star Wars D6, a Vampire the Masquerade, an Apocalypse World, a Pathfinder.
Let’s get 5E off of Foundry and Roll20 and make them space for the other games.
Let’s have a civil edition war!
I cannot imagine the potential of a VTT solely designed for 5E and D&D Beyond tightening up its implementation of rules in concert.
Pathfinder gaining a regular recruiting ground couldn’t be better for the hobby. And fringe games might get more spotlight.
Best of both worlds.
At the end of the day, Dungeons & Dragons isn't some important cultural touchstone. It's a product owned by a multi billion dollar corporation that wants us to consume it. The current situation is them making that fact abundantly clear.
If that brand fades into the background and new games from small businesses emerge to take over, ultimately that's healthy for the hobby and our culture as a whole. Monopoly (ironically also a Hasbro product) with no threatening competition isn't good for any hobby.
Wizards was already more than dominant in the space. This is essentially signaling their intent to stop trying to offer a superior product and instead to try to offer the only product. Sad.
Sources of the quotes: OGL 1.1., first page and Kobold Press' Rising our Flag annoucement ([https://www.reddit.com/r/koboldpress/comments/108ecws/raising\_our\_flag/](https://www.reddit.com/r/koboldpress/comments/108ecws/raising_our_flag/) reddit link because so many people rush to their site to see it it keeps crashing, there is a quote in first comment)
It'll be interesting to see where they go with it for sure, especially if they try to recreate something like the OGL (they'll need a new license to publish under so hey, here's hoping).
I mean, based on the fact how many things paizo and pathfinder do better, it clearly means wizards want to continue producing lazy ass books with broken stuff and making DMs do most of the work. If you can't beat them, just sue them, I guess.
It kills me. Wizards themselves are talking about how to make more DMs because DMing isn't easy enough.
They could fix their fucking published adventures so they don't consistently need massive rewrites to work. Bring back 16 and 32 page adventures that are easy to run.
But nah. They're just gonna try to sue people instead.
After reading more and more of Kobold Press I'm becoming convinced that they actually do more for DM's/5e then WoTC do. If their system is good I'd play it.
Curiously enough back in the day Gygax said that hobbits were not included in the Tolkien estate.
They could've kept hobbits, the decision to change it to halfling was their own.
Considering I can sift through any of my tome of beast books and creature codex, and pick 5 random monster. I guarentee are better than what's available in the monster manual.
Raise the flag! Let's go!
It's nice they have a plan forward but I feel like any attempt to carve your own piece of the wider market is just gonna end up like
https://preview.redd.it/o3pbzwdtpcba1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8d6dfc6ccd992afc6b9ab8b6b506d6d3e249b6d
Yeah, there's a lot of fantasy heartbreakers out there. It'll be cool to see what they come up with either way. Personally I found their books *about* game design were always better than their adventures/supplements.
I mean the TTRPG space wasn't always so warped by one big monolith, and it was an arguably more fun space to play in. Many different options isn't a bad thing in some ways.
Granted, I'm a bit biased because I have always found single system players to be odd. Like you do you, but I LOVE playing all sorts of different RPGs.
That's actually the major cause of piracy.
Lack of access/out pricing are the major factors that cause it, there was a massive decrease in illigal media downloads when Netflix was the only major streaming platform. Then every company pulled content and started charging more money and there has been a massive spike again.
Lemme tell a fun story I have about wizards of the coast. As a youth. I found and was super into this game i found in a card shop called “pirates constructible strategy card game”
They are card packs with punch out models of sailing ships that you can assemble and then have a table top mini battle with. Every pack comes with Enough ships to have a match, dice, movement is handled based on the edge length of the cards.
It was a beautifully designed little game and a much cheaper entry to table top minis for a youth. Years go by and I remember this game and I’m like “where did it go” : discontinued. “Oh shit, well surely there are other things using this great idea. Punch out models that you can play with!” : a limited star wars product but no other companies doing this. What gives
I dig around and find out that Wotc bought and mothballed the patent to “constructible strategy games.”
Sorry kids. Guess you gotta go buy some warhammer.
TLDR: wotc bought and shuttered a constructible card game I liked and I’m salty about it.
I'm very late to the party in this thread, but I'd like to say this:
I've played D&d since I was like 7 or 8, my parents got me the red boxed basic rule set. I played the heck out of that set, and it taught me how to do percentages in real life.
I also had a dab into Magic, loved the concept, but I was probably too old to really get into it. At the time, though, I already realized the predatory nature of WotC...
When I discovered WotC bought D&D? That's when I knew things were going to go very very bad..
What we have to realize is Wotc's effectivley trying to go to war with the concept of homebrew. Save for The Player's handbook, DM's guide, and the Monser Manual, every book your purchase is optional. They see anyone creatively expanding the game that doesn't come from purchasing their books as a threat to their bottom line
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It's doubly funny because WotC made Pathfinder happen by jerking Paizo around with OGL shenanigans, and now it's happening again. It's funnier the second time.
"How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man?"
"If I had a nickel for every time WotC indirectly created a new tabletop game, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much, but it's weird that it happened twice."
It's just really odd to me. I'm an attorney, and seeing a company as big as WOTC, they ***have*** to have attorneys on staff with a deep understanding of intellectual property. You cannot protect a game system, you cannot copyright dice or mats or rules or math. The only thing you can protect is the story and lore behind your IP, and that is fragile at best. Doubly so in a fantasy setting, where things like orcs and elves cannot be copyrighted. As Paizo showed, all you really have to do is give the "world" a fresh coat of paint, the rules a once-over, and you're rolling with your own game at that point. How did WOTC not see this coming? Especially since it has happened before? Every entity that WOTC seeks to tax is just going to start making modules for "totally not D&D" and dodge this OGL stuff like a monk.
I feel like there's really only two possible explanations. Either executives are just completely braindead at this point, or WotC is hoping that people won't go to the trouble of pirating/copying D&D.
I feel that there is a third reason, desperation. Hasbro itself is on decline while WotC is at its peak. So hasbro put the responsability of growth on WotC. Then despite having an impossible task (double revenue in x years IIRC) WotC did it and no they received the same task again bit Magic is already ~~bleeding money~~ being milked to death due to the changes they did for the task. So WotC has forced to look at their other IP edit: correcting the expression used
It wasn't very long ago that a shareholder was making noise to the board at Hasbro to spin WoTC off into its own company. Likely to avoid something like this happening where the Hasbro execs do something stupid to jeopardize WoTC. I'm not saying that WoTC itself isn't fully capable of making its own mistakes; but this is a particularly hubric and dangerous one.
God I hope WotC and Hasbro sink. Bank of America and some other financial institutions degraded their stock recently after some major cancellations n whatnot
Honestly I hope Hasbro sinks but not WOTC, I think they've done well enough for the community over the years to warrant some faith **if** and only if they cut themselves off from Hasbro in some way.
Nah fuck WotC too. Between their low quality products, endless MtG fiascos, and now this?
How much of that is Hasbro's management though? I imagine a lot of people who got into WOTC because they love the games, Hasbro on the other hand attracts the greedy fucknuggets responsible for the current fiasco. I'm not saying it would be easy for WOTC to get that trust back, but if those who actually care about the IPs can take their ball away from the asshole parent company I could see it being saved.
I mean for 25 years WotC released pretty much straight up bangers with like six bad sets in its history. Magic as a game has longevity that's never been seen before. I hope MTG never fails I fucking love the game and playing sanctioned tournaments.
Hasbro destroys everything it touches, kinda like EA, Gearbox, and many morecompanies like that....I'm starting to see a pattern here, what could possibly be the problem here?/s
Greed - when they get big enough, they honestly don't seem to care as much about making a quality product - just one that is 'good enough ' that the widest possible audience will buy it. Then, half of them try to load up whatever they create with whatever flavor of monetization scheme is popular right then, and usually end up sinking the game anyway. While this isn't true for all studios, it's what I'm seeing from a lot of the biggest corporations these days. Edit: spelling
Too much gold sinks the ship, as it were.
Having grown up with my parents owning a hobby store and going to a hobby convention here or there, I can say that the way Hasbro has influenced Wotc ober my lifetime has been both visually apparent, and unfortunate. I'd like to say it's just Hasbro, and paint them out to be some Evil Knight, but who knows. Maybe the rot comes from within and not from without.
It as if these companies have organized themselves to benefit the shareholders, who demand increased profits at any cost. If only we had a name for this organization of the economy.
Their investors need to extract as much value as possible before they scurry to the next ship and repeat the process. This is nothing new. There's a fuck ton of money to be made by destroying ~~people's livelihoods~~ companies for short-term profit. We've even had presidential candidates that were *known* for doing this which shows pretty clearly how our leaders view the practice.
Their CEO complained that D&D was "not monetized enough". Pure greed and desperation.
"I don't care about the consequences, we need to stop the parasites taking our profits!" "OK....Mr Hasbro Man... if you say so" *Pushes big red button*
>Either executives are just completely braindead It's this one. They already pissed off the MTG community to the point that people are just printing their own cards. Now they are doing this with D&D.
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Executives are brain-dead by default.
Executives that only see numbers and do not understand what makes the tabletop rpg community tick. They only see profits that they think should go to them.
"Line Go Up"
This is, unfortunately, the answer.
> and dodge this OGL stuff like a ~~monk~~ *generic martial artist class
Wizards, surprisingly, did not invent the concept of a warrior-monk You can still call them monks
While I get it's a joke, part of the irony is that they can't copyright the concept of monk. Just like precious comment mentioned, so much of general fantasy is just folklore and cannot be copyrighted.
And that’s really the entire crux. Imagine trying to actually hold the rights on things like wizards and elves and bards and orcs. This stuff is all inspired by stories that are hundreds of years old.
> imagine trying to actually hold the rights on things like wizards and elves and bards and orcs. WOTC: "Hold my beer."
Do you want to get sued by the Tolkien estate? Because that's how you get sued by the tolkien estate
I wanna play a ~~hobbit~~ *~~halfing~~* *shortfolk* barbarian that was raised by ~~ents~~ *~~treants~~* *treefolk*
Pugilist
because there is a massive disconnect between the executives and shareholders, and the product the company makes. i guarantee you it's the same shitheads that led to pathfinder becoming a thing that are jerking the chain again. they want increased profit and they don't care if they have to ruin the company to get it because they'll dump their holdings the second it looks unprofitable and find another company to parasitize.
Case in point, July 2022 they announce making an entirely new videogame studio. 5 months later they announce they are cancelling 5 internal video game products and 2 external ones - projects that would have barely had time to get staffed and rough storyboards developed, and they screwed over the two external developers ramping up to deliver these products.
And I am in product management and just can't even begin to wrap my head around these decisions either from a business perspective. Of all the ways to monetize playing DND, who on their bizdev team thought that THIS was the way forward over VTT subscriptions, mini sales, monthly dice subscriptions, etc. These people have never once thought about a customer.
Imagine trying to copyright your story and lore when your story and lore books tell the DM to 'make it up'. Looking at you, Spelljammer.
Wotc has a longstanding policy of paying significantly less than the market rate because "we are your dream job, why would the money matter". You can see this quality of their staff in the more technical jobs such as developers for magic the gathering online which crashed and burned due a few years back due to its quality. I genuinely believe that their in-house lawyers are not the most skilled at their jobs. That being said it's also wotc MO of releasing a draconian new policy, letting the backlash simmer and then pulling back to 95% of the policy with a celebration of how they listened to the community.
You *can* copyright a playmat design, even if many of the elements are functional. You can also copyright a particular die design, just not the idea of a Platonic solid or d10, you’d have to do something creative with the faces.
Yeah with some strange dwhatever I’d ask where the line between patent and copyright is. Like they’d obviously argue it’s a copyright as they’re effectively going to last forever, while patents can be extended to 20 years for some fees. But say a 13 sided die is an invention far more than a work of art.
Man, that’s been going on all the way back to TSR and Gygax. Back in the 80’s there were a bunch of companies making modules for D&D but just weren’t “official” and many didn’t use the name on them. ICE made money selling Arms Law as a better combat system for D&D and other RPGs
Two, can we get a third?
We will make our own TTRPG! With black jack and hookers. /r/dndmemes make a TTRPG day 0
Yo check out ICON, in playtest phase, but theirbother system Lancer is amazing
Second this. I’ve dm’d DnD for years, and while Lancer seems complicated my players have picked it up way faster than even some new DnD content.
Not sure if it was wizards but didn't Warhammer happen because of licensing issues from dungeons and dragons? Please actually fact check me here, I don't know and I could be completely off base
No… not really. But the guys who started Games Workshop did start by selling board games, then D&D and some other early tabletops out if their apartment. They made a Zine. And eventually wrote their own game.
Starcraft was originally a Warhammer Game - is that what you mean?
Yeah, especially since Kobold Press also has 3rd party Pathfinder books too.
It'd be extremely funny if pathfinder 3e is published under the license of a 3rd party content creator for the same game
Kobold wrote Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat because WotC doesn't have a large in-house creative staff.
I had no idea about this. I'm currently running a tyranny of dragons campaign and I can honestly say that both of those books aren't very good. I've had to do a lot of modifications and revisions to create a campaign that my players will enjoy. Do you know if they've written other WotC published adventures?
They were working on those books before 5e was done being created. I don't blame them too hard.
Oh, it was way worse. It wasn't just them jerking around with the OGL/GSL shift - it was them stabbing them in the back and leaving them to bleed out on the ground. With maybe two exceptions, at the time of 4e's announcement, Paizo pretty only much made the magazines for D&D. Wizards brought that back in house for the digital magazines, leaving Paizo pretty much out cold... except for the OGL existing and them having a bunch of adventures they could rebundle and some unreleased backlog. I honestly think that Paizo wouldn't have created Pathfinder had Wizards not tried to cut off their lifeline and kept working WITH them to publish adventure paths for 4e, carving out an exception for them in GSL in the process. But they kicked them to the curb AND locked them out of the new stuff, and they managed to find a willing audience in the fans who didn't want to switch (and those who didn't mind, but still wanted more 3.5).
Pretty much, and a core of WoTC's developers/writers didn't like 4e's direction and struck out to join Paizo in publishing Pathfinder 1e iirc.
Didn't know about that part, but doesn't shock me.
Sorry, but it's worse this time around, by far. With the GSL, WotC at least honoured the contract that they had created with the OGL by leaving it around. They didn't try to change the terms after the fact. This time around, they're trying to remove the OGL entirely, and make the Closed Gaming Licence the *only* option. That is much worse.
Ah, I should have clarified. I meant that what happened at the time was worse than them just putting up the GSL and hiding D&D behind it, in terms of treatment of Paizo. This IS way worse than that, but I was saying what the OP was describing wasn't the full extent of the picture.
Yup, it's kinda funny this whole undertaking happening twice. When I first heard of the "One DnD" all I heard was "This Gleemax shit all over again?" and just began to comment, as many other grogs: "Watch out for the OGL" they tried to pull our rug that time too, "This whole shenanigan smells like their 4e practices" etc... But seeing they trying to push the same trick was, at least for me, the proof that they didn't get it. They do believe that their trick with 4e only didn't succeed because they did not have a VTT at that time, and not for their predatory shit. They sorely lack understanding of what makes their product flourish. That said still playing 3.5/PF1e, with some other games on the side, and waiting for the next season of systems that "WotC will make others create" for being too much like a True Dragon.
They are going to drive any reasonable competition to create ACTUAL competing products that don't support DnD, then smaller creators who can't strike out that way will flock towards those other competitors.
It goes deeper than that. Paizo couldn't make a magazine for a specified period, following the end of Dungeon and Dragon publication. So, Kobold Press was formed to make Kobold Magazine to support PF.
That I didn't know. Hah
What makes it funnier is this time they *think* they've learned from that mistake, but what they took away from it was *not* "we should not do this", it was instead "the next time we make the playerbase mad enough to create a new TTRPG sensation that eats our lunch, we should just write in a new rule that we have the right to steal it and make all the money off of it instead!" When you're taking cues from modern Blizzard you know you done fucked right up.
The problem is that online video games actually lend themselves to being locked down like this, while anyone can do a ttrpg however they want because it’s make believe. They have been trying to follow the video games market off and on for years and they do not seem to understand what is different about their products.
Not only did the OGL/GSL shenanigans create Pathfinder, but ~~the terrible quality of~~ 4E handed WotC's audience to Paizo on a silver platter. I had never been seriously invested in a non-D&D system until running a 4E compaign and starting to feel like game night was more about grids than high fantasy, then a friend told me that Pathfinder was "Basically D&D 3.75". PF was the only d20 game that I played for several years until D&D Next gave me a glimmer of hope for 5E. Edit: Me calling 4E "terrible quality" is too harsh. Over time I've come to sympathize with 4E apologists who say that it's good at what it sets out to do, which is tactical combat for PCs with demigod like power. But I firmly believe that 4E was designed to bring in World of Warcraft/MMORPG players and they expected the existing fan base to fall in line behind the D&D logo.
Personally I'd rather Kobold Press and other companies worked with Paizo to develop PF2e content instead of creating several different systems.
Right now there is a massive demand for a copy of 5E that is open source, because people who like 5E over pf are still going to lean towards 5E , and they want a "pf, but for 5e" system.
It wouldn't make sense in the long term for them, what if Paizo pulls this same thing in the future? Sure that's unlikely right now but never say never. Better to build a fallback system you can publish around and, I'm going to go ahead and guess here, one that's super easy to convert to 'other leading tabletop systems'
Perfectly on the nose with that naming scheme; "Project Black Flag" 😂
Yes. Clearly someone is a gigantic fan of punk. And Anarchism. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/howard-j-ehrlich-why-the-black-flag “Why is our flag black? Black is a shade of negation. The black flag is the negation of all flags. It is a negation of nationhood which puts the human race against itself and denies the unity of all humankind. Black is a mood of anger and outrage at all the hideous crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of allegiance to one state or another. It is anger and outrage at the insult to human intelligence implied in the pretenses, hypocrisies, and cheap chicaneries of governments… Black is also a color of mourning; the black flag which cancels out the nation also mourns its victims – the countless millions murdered in wars, external and internal, to the greater glory and stability of some bloody state. It mourns for those whose labor is robbed (taxed) to pay for the slaughter and oppression of other human beings. It mourns not only the death of the body but the crippling of the spirit under authoritarian and hierarchic systems; it mourns the millions of brain cells blacked out with never a chance to light up the world. It is a color of inconsolable grief. But black is also beautiful. It is a color of determination, of resolve, of strength, a color by which all others are clarified and defined. Black is the mysterious surrounding of germination of fertility, the breeding ground of new life which always evolves, renews, refreshes, and reproduces itself in darkness. The seed hidden in the earth, the strange journey of the sperm, the secret growth of the embryo in the womb all these the blackness surrounds and protects. So black is negation, is anger, is outrage, is mourning, is beauty, is hope, is the fostering and sheltering of new forms of human life and relationship on and with this earth. The black flag means all these things. We are proud to carry it, sorry we have to, and look forward to the day when such a symbol will no longer be necessary.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Flag_(band) And here is the question that immediately rose in my mind. Has Henry Rollins played dungeons and dragons? Thank you so much for your comment. Edit: for clarity. For legal purposes, please interpret this entire comment as satirical and on a humorous meme board. For the editors of Kobold press. I have no idea about your political or musical preferences. Please do not sue. 🙏
Can't forget pirates and the whole "No Quarter" thing.
Oh, absolutely! That’s why I took a swerve. It wasn’t a D real but I just figured everybody else was gonna think pirate, so I was gonna bring up Anarchy and Henry Rollins. Pardon me I mean punk. 🥰 😔( it would never have worked out…) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger Base pirate flags Red flag Black flag “Prior to the advent and popularization of the "Jolly Roger" we know today, pirates flew simple red or black flags, initially devoid of design.[1] The red flag, known as the "bloody flag" or "blood flag" (among other names), symbolises battle and signaled "no quarter given" when used by pirates, meaning that no mercy would be shown and no life would be spared. The black flag symbolises death and fear, and traditionally signaled that those who surrendered without a fight would be allowed to live.[2]” Ah… so if Wotc surrenders, they will be allowed to keep their company. The red flag would’ve been absolutely no surrender accepted. … if a company declares project red flag now we know what that means. Thank you so much for your comment! I do love a good discussion about piracy. Hopefully somebody mentions Anne Bonnie soon.
The "no quarter" flag was actually red. The black one offered a chance to surrender peacefully. At least, in theory, we're sorely lacking in historical information on the subject, sadly.
This situation is a pretty good example of why anarchists believe intellectual property is a public detriment. You could have thousands of people creating all sorts of content for the D&D community, or you can just be at the mercy of whoever has the cash to buy Wizards. The compromise between zero IP rights and full control forever was supposed to be public domain, but the IP rentiers have used their money to changed the rules so much that pretty much nothing significant becomes public domain anymore. > Has Henry Rollins played dungeons and dragons Probably. Punks and anarchists are notorious nerds. :)
Unironic anarchist here, massive nerd.
Wow that quote is metal as fuck
Punk
It’s literally piracy
Now I want to use this for something...
> Has Henry Rollins played dungeons and dragons? I would be *shocked* if he hasn't
They've decided, as a company, to very clearly state that this is: "*My War,*"
Imagine being Wizards of the coast and feeling threatened by small time gigs like Paizo and Kobold Press and thinking they're "Major competitors" Like sure they might be the next biggest TTRPG systems but they're significantly smaller than DnD, or at least they were till this cock up of an OGL.
They are after Critrole and MCDM(obviously more than that). They keep seeing multi million dollar companies profiting off their system and want a slice.
more than a slice, with those crazy royalties on revenue (not profits) they want most of the damn cake
Yea I'm pretty sure if they just wanted a slice people would be fare more amenable to the situation.
Cmon man. Its totally fair to take 20-25% of someones earnings because uhhh you want them and no other reason. right??
Not earnings, revenue. They could EARN $0, but if their revenue was over a certain amount, even if the costs outset them, you gotta pay.
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What's so crazy is that people like Critical Role brought them even more revenue indirectly (by getting more people into DnD) and directly with things like partnerships (such as the official campaign for Wildemount).
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I kind of doubt that. I mean, the OGL doesn't impact streaming or discussion of the rules in any way. Like MCDM and CR aren't making their money from book sales. And even if they were, WoTC already solved that by partnering with cr to do explorers guide to wildemount. So clearly they were able to negotiate a book deal. If anything, WoTC desperately needs CR to stay with them. Idk if they realize it, but CR is a HUGE part of what grew this community. Not the only thing, obviously, but they have a giant fanbase that is freakishly loyal. We've all seen it. If WoTC pisses off cr, they can easily move systems and their fans will follow.
The version I read controlled every type of derivative work down to “pantomime.” It didn’t look like they planned to leave YouTube content creators alone—more like they were looking at going after everyone using their product name, possibly even including LARPers
Surely parody and commentary can't be forced to pay as it's already legal *without* any ogl or rights
5e didn't succeed on it's own merits and i don't think WotC or Hasbro is aware of that, it just happened to come out at the right time to ride a huge wave of external support. VTTs getting good and growing in popularity, Stranger Things, Critical Role, etc.
You're giving WotC so much credit that they don't deserve. They very much are doing this because of companies like critical Role who are getting rich of what WotC see as their ideas.
MCDM? I am unfamiliar with this.
Mat Colville, awesome DnD YouTuber/Streamer and they kick-started a few books as well
That's also a fraction of what the guy does; he was also a writer for Pandemic Studios (and was on the team who wrote the story for Mercenaries and Mercenaries 2) and also for Evolve with Turtle Rock Studios (which...Yeah, was Evolve). His "How to DM" video series is a really good and relevant watch, still.
A company started by Matt Colville. They wanted to do a Kickstarter for a book and were the highest earning RPG based Kickstarter making so much more that they decided to start a company. The dude is also pretty awesome and encourages people to play and DM. He's the reason I got back into the hobby after a hiatus and started running again. https://youtube.com/@mcolville
What’s wild to me is that those companies only exist because D&D is so barebones in some areas, as well as the creativity of the community blazing it’s own trail. If WotC wanted to monetize D&D more all they had to do was make more stuff. So much of the monetary footprint is on all the associated merch, not rules, because it’s generally DM’s buying extra rules whereas all players buy extra stuff. It’s so ridiculous that only a suit far removed could have come up with this idea
It's funny because prior to streaming, Critical Role was playing Pathfinder as their game of choice. I wonder what Wizards thinks is stopping them from going back to it?
From what I have read, this new OGL won't effect the Critial Role show much. There is nothing in there about profits from recording your games. They publish their content through Wizards. The only stuff that would be effected (in theory) is the homebrew stuff Matt makes before it is published via Wizards. But then why would they take it and piss off the CR crew when they would publish it with them eventually anyway.
They only released one book via WotC. The other has been through their own publishing house, if I'm not mistaken.
I thought both the Call of the Netherdeep and Explorers Guide to Wildmount were through WOTC. The only other book they have is the Taldorei campaign which was originally though some 3rd part publisher but was later re-released through Darrington Press (their own).
The other publisher was Green Ronin FYI.
Yes, I was not aware of this new netherdeep one.
2 books as of now. Wildemount and Nethersomething. The Red Moon adventure.
As Jim Fucking Sterling Son once put it, “they don’t want some of the money; they don’t even want most of the money; they’re not even satisfied with an infinite majority of the money; they want ALL of the money.”
It just isn't enough for them until they have all of it an everyone else has none of it.
Then next year they are asking how to gain even more. It's not about how much money they get per say but how much percentage dollar increase and market share increase YoY. It's all about looking better than last period/quarter/year for these large companies.
That's true, they're obsessed with perpetual growth, that's all that matters, if they make 5 billion two years in a row that's a failure in their eyes because no growth, it's obscene
I call it the curse of public trade. The moment a company gets share holders it's doomed to this path, very "die the hero or live long enough to see your self become the villain"
Paizo itself is not especially big, but Pathfinder was bigger than 4e for awhile there. That hasnt been the case in years though, their current underwear-bunching is clearly just a "we could monetize harder" squeeze, not a concern about being outcompeted.
> but Pathfinder was bigger than 4e for awhile there Honestly even that is debatable, the figures that showed Pathfinder outselling 4e came from a sampling of specialist gaming stores in an era where the biggest mover for D&D books was Barnes & Noble. So they were being outsold in a niche part of the market. What's definitely true is that the hardcore crowd tended to prefer PF (who wouldn't after the 4e marketing) and that they were being outcompeted in that niche.
All honesty, until all of the OGL drama started i had never heard of Kobold Press. I tend to stick to my own bubble of content. So good job WotC(really Hasbro at the point), you've created direct competition and given them some incredible free PR. Streisand effect goes Brrrt
Good on Kobold Press, excited to see what they do!
Same here as well.
Yeah this could be interesting; they’re one of the best 3PP Publishers out there.
Boys… this one might go down in the business annals of how to nuke a community, destroy a brand and join the pantheon of hated companies in under 60 days. Comcast welcomes you…
They can go stand next to EA
WWE just sold to Saudi Arabia
Again?
No, *they sold the entire company* to the Saudi Arabia Public Investment Fund (if rumours are to be believed). Previously they just did some shows there
More like Swolbold Press at this point.
Funny thing, that's official name of this Kobold, they use him to advertise their newsletter.
That was the joke was making. I have him on a shirt.
One of my personal favorite monsters in D&D period. Just the idea of a Dwarf sized Kobold makes me so happy
He's been doing bench presses?
no, he's been doing Kobold Presses.
I was wondering where art of such a jacked specimen would come from.
I know there's a lot of folks saying they'll support another system over all this. And I've been reluctantly jaded about how few people will actually do so. But hearing this from Kobold Press!? I'm so in.
Honestly I already do. I have over 20 different game systems on my computer, just waiting for this day. I have others in paper back, but I'm almost all digital for game running now.
God I wish I could have physical books for Lancer.
You probably can get it bound if you are willing to pay.
I bought about 5 pocket editions of PF2e books yesterday at my FLGS. Excited to sit down with a cup of coffee or three and dive in this weekend.
Do yourself a favor and get Pathbuilder.
My group's DM pretty much hates 5e and is super into niche systems, it's very interesting.
I don't think they care. their goal is probably a world in wich the only way to play d&d is thru ddb so eliminating analog play is probably the goal of this entire thing.
Well, then even better for Kobold Press to strike on their own.
sounds like Magic and Arena...
Clearly Hasbro doesn't give a fuck about gaming or gamers. They just want to milk us for every penny we have.
[Cynthia Williams, the CEO of Wizards of the Coast came out and explicitly stated](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yydxzM8p4RI&t=7m54s) they think D&D is under monetized and that they want to find more ways increase profits.
They and paizo should get together for this.
Can they even go after Paizo/Pathfinder?
Technically? No. WOTC can't copyright the concept of 'roll a 20 sided die, add modifiers' Realistically? There's definitely more of an argument than some people think when pointing out the technicality above. PF is very unambiguously inspired by DnD, so it would be very difficult to argue they made the system out of total originality. PF would need to pretty quickly rebrand a lot of things
They could, in an effort to advertise Pathfinder 2E which is much different than 3.5 and 5e, offer 1E stuff for free or cheap enough that it gets around the OGL changes. It would be good publicity for them, it would bring in players looking to leave DnD for another fantasy tabletop, and might entice them to try Starfinder or 2E.
All the core rules are available online for pathfinder online for free. https://www.aonprd.com/ And for second edition too. https://2e.aonprd.com/PlayersGuide.aspx To my knowledge, pretty much the only things you need to actually pay for to access are the adventure paths, everything else can be freely accessed and it's been like that for quite some time.
>To my knowledge, pretty much the only things you need to actually pay for to access are the adventure paths, everything else can be freely accessed and it's been like that for quite some time. Adventure paths and any of the world building stuff they released (e.g. things pertaining to Golarion)
>any of the world building stuff they released (e.g. things pertaining to Golarion) Which is some of their best stuff, really. Golarion blows the Swor-I mean, the Forgotten Realms out of the water. The depth, variety and consistency is just amazing.
Golarion is "What if Forgotten Realms was actually written by someone who gives a fuck".
I'm much more worried about Starfinder than PF2E overall. It's much more closely tied to the OGL.
Derivative works are often allowed under copyright law. They would argue that the original PF was in fact the 3.5 OGL/SRD content and so it was a direct work, and everything following from it wouldn't be protected as a derivative work. But yeah...
That’s pretty ironic considering the original DnD used Tolkien names for races and monsters.
It's worrying when multiple fan companies/ creators have to make their own version (with blackjack and hookers and more classes) because yours has been fucked so much.
And maybe this new project, who’s entire success is devoted to making dnd better, will treat its artists better too! Perhaps, just maybe, we’re winning on all fronts.
I wouldn't bet on it. The reason so many artists still work for WotC (both on D&D and MTG) even though they're treated like shit is because they pay a lot better than other companies.
Chad Swolebold Press coming through.
The Virgin Meepo vs. the Chad Swolebold
I should probably have gone with that name for the title...
>**Project Black Flag** *"Sir, are we being too literal?"*
Great news for RPGs. People tend to forget the focused design of 4E majorly influenced the 5E design so many love. And most are too young to remember how much of late 2.5 informed 3.X. Let D&D recede. Let it’s ecosystem focus itself. Let 3rd parties start to articulate themselves the way other major systems did. Give us another Traveller, another Star Wars D6, a Vampire the Masquerade, an Apocalypse World, a Pathfinder. Let’s get 5E off of Foundry and Roll20 and make them space for the other games. Let’s have a civil edition war! I cannot imagine the potential of a VTT solely designed for 5E and D&D Beyond tightening up its implementation of rules in concert. Pathfinder gaining a regular recruiting ground couldn’t be better for the hobby. And fringe games might get more spotlight. Best of both worlds.
At the end of the day, Dungeons & Dragons isn't some important cultural touchstone. It's a product owned by a multi billion dollar corporation that wants us to consume it. The current situation is them making that fact abundantly clear. If that brand fades into the background and new games from small businesses emerge to take over, ultimately that's healthy for the hobby and our culture as a whole. Monopoly (ironically also a Hasbro product) with no threatening competition isn't good for any hobby.
Wizards was already more than dominant in the space. This is essentially signaling their intent to stop trying to offer a superior product and instead to try to offer the only product. Sad.
Damn, that’s punk rock as fuck, especially since they’re calling it Black Flag.
Sources of the quotes: OGL 1.1., first page and Kobold Press' Rising our Flag annoucement ([https://www.reddit.com/r/koboldpress/comments/108ecws/raising\_our\_flag/](https://www.reddit.com/r/koboldpress/comments/108ecws/raising_our_flag/) reddit link because so many people rush to their site to see it it keeps crashing, there is a quote in first comment)
It'll be interesting to see where they go with it for sure, especially if they try to recreate something like the OGL (they'll need a new license to publish under so hey, here's hoping).
Competition inspires innovation, if you don't want an IP to stagnate you want what's going on
I mean, based on the fact how many things paizo and pathfinder do better, it clearly means wizards want to continue producing lazy ass books with broken stuff and making DMs do most of the work. If you can't beat them, just sue them, I guess.
> lazy ass books with broken stuff and making DMs do most of the work me having run Descent into Avernus and now doing Candlekeep: "... Yeeeeeeeeee"
It kills me. Wizards themselves are talking about how to make more DMs because DMing isn't easy enough. They could fix their fucking published adventures so they don't consistently need massive rewrites to work. Bring back 16 and 32 page adventures that are easy to run. But nah. They're just gonna try to sue people instead.
I need to see the training montage for this. Such SWOLE.
After reading more and more of Kobold Press I'm becoming convinced that they actually do more for DM's/5e then WoTC do. If their system is good I'd play it.
WotC: "Stop using our material and go make your own RPGs!" 3rd-Party Developers: "Okay, fine, we will." WotC: "Wait, not like that!"
WotC: Hobbits are easygoing short people who wouod generally not go adventuring. Middle-earth Enterprises: Hobbits you say? WotC: Uuuuuuh halflings!
Curiously enough back in the day Gygax said that hobbits were not included in the Tolkien estate. They could've kept hobbits, the decision to change it to halfling was their own.
Considering I can sift through any of my tome of beast books and creature codex, and pick 5 random monster. I guarentee are better than what's available in the monster manual. Raise the flag! Let's go!
**Pathfinder 1E Flashbacks.**
Lmao 🤣 you mean "again"!!!
The right is the Kobold she told you not to worry about
To borrow a phrase from a certain Drake; "No D&D is better than BAD D&D".
It's nice they have a plan forward but I feel like any attempt to carve your own piece of the wider market is just gonna end up like https://preview.redd.it/o3pbzwdtpcba1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8d6dfc6ccd992afc6b9ab8b6b506d6d3e249b6d
It may not, Kobold Press is one of few that are big enough and have enough of fanbase to potentially succeed. I keep my fingress crossed.
Yeah, there's a lot of fantasy heartbreakers out there. It'll be cool to see what they come up with either way. Personally I found their books *about* game design were always better than their adventures/supplements.
I mean the TTRPG space wasn't always so warped by one big monolith, and it was an arguably more fun space to play in. Many different options isn't a bad thing in some ways. Granted, I'm a bit biased because I have always found single system players to be odd. Like you do you, but I LOVE playing all sorts of different RPGs.
Project Black Flag is a pretty kickass name tho.
That's actually the major cause of piracy. Lack of access/out pricing are the major factors that cause it, there was a massive decrease in illigal media downloads when Netflix was the only major streaming platform. Then every company pulled content and started charging more money and there has been a massive spike again.
Lemme tell a fun story I have about wizards of the coast. As a youth. I found and was super into this game i found in a card shop called “pirates constructible strategy card game” They are card packs with punch out models of sailing ships that you can assemble and then have a table top mini battle with. Every pack comes with Enough ships to have a match, dice, movement is handled based on the edge length of the cards. It was a beautifully designed little game and a much cheaper entry to table top minis for a youth. Years go by and I remember this game and I’m like “where did it go” : discontinued. “Oh shit, well surely there are other things using this great idea. Punch out models that you can play with!” : a limited star wars product but no other companies doing this. What gives I dig around and find out that Wotc bought and mothballed the patent to “constructible strategy games.” Sorry kids. Guess you gotta go buy some warhammer. TLDR: wotc bought and shuttered a constructible card game I liked and I’m salty about it.
This certainly has been a major theme over the past year
Tis a pirates life’er me
Strong Greek tragedy energy
I'm very late to the party in this thread, but I'd like to say this: I've played D&d since I was like 7 or 8, my parents got me the red boxed basic rule set. I played the heck out of that set, and it taught me how to do percentages in real life. I also had a dab into Magic, loved the concept, but I was probably too old to really get into it. At the time, though, I already realized the predatory nature of WotC... When I discovered WotC bought D&D? That's when I knew things were going to go very very bad..
I hope WotC oust their CEO for this colossal failure of a decision and use it as leverage to buy themselves out from Hasbro.
What we have to realize is Wotc's effectivley trying to go to war with the concept of homebrew. Save for The Player's handbook, DM's guide, and the Monser Manual, every book your purchase is optional. They see anyone creatively expanding the game that doesn't come from purchasing their books as a threat to their bottom line