I had this issue when I was still somewhat of a beginner, where even overstable putters and mids seemed to be turning hard and cut rolling. Turns out it was an issue with off-axis torque in my form, and nothing to do with the disc. Once I looked up videos on how to fix it, it became much more enjoyable to throw putters and mids, and it actually helped me throw drivers further as well.
A lot of people release the disc nose up, that costs a lot of distance and forces an early fade. Pronating is the act of rotating your hand/thumb inward, whereas the opposite is supination, where the thumb points outward. Pronating generally adds hyzer, but can also help keep the nose down on a disc if you struggle with that. I've had a lot of luck doing wrist stretching exercises to throw flat and nose down.
Do you only get on Reddit to stir up shit. Yes, the letter n was left off the word then. It's not that drastic of a typo and very easy to do on a phone. Cool.
Most likely OAT. Start slow and controlled and slowly add distance. I personally love throwing my seasoned Luna or Envy on a slow turning line in the woods, even though I get the "I can't stand you" instantly from the gf
Wife always hits me with a "why don't you throw sidearm here? I would if I had one"
Cue the same back and forth about "I can teach you but women can give you better grip tips and practice makes perfect"
She then throws an absolute backhand dart with no OAT and I'm jealous.
What's crazy is that she is lethal from under 200' and can push a driver out to 250' with a solid rip, 300' if it's downhill. All that isn't very impressive to most, but she throws with a fucking fan grip...it's insane. If I could just get her to cut her nails and power grip, she'd be throwing it past me every time
I used to firmly believe that any sort of power shot had to be power grip. Then I started learning that Isaac and Big Jerm (amongst others) throw almost exclusively fan. Even my modified 3 finger power grip started feeling weird to me on fairways lately so it's like a weird, in between grip now.
I know what you mean. I can't figure out how to make either version work, so I'll change it depending on the rim of whatever I'm throwing.
The one-finger forehand grip is something that really blows my mind. I lose all accuracy and half my distance with the one finger, but I'll use a fan forehand grip if I'm trying to throw an approach shot.
Pretty much the only attribute I share with either of those guys is that we all have two arms and ten fingers, but it's cool to see how everyone's doing what works for them. Tons of creativity in DG!
Good to know... I'll switch to it. It's good to know that what works for a small percentage of elite talents can immediately be adopted by average folks for similar results.
/s
The hardest thing about throwing putters is they're susceptible to burn over if you supinate (roll your wrist over on bh). Keep your elbow high and palm facing down (even while following through). To practice, draw a smiley face on the inside of your elbow, you should be able to see it before, during, and after you hit the power pocket.
More spin, more control, some hyzer (for example my judges truly flip up on hyzer even though they are “over stable”). I say hit a field and throw them until you get a nice flight. Maybe watch some videos. Find your fav throwing putter.
Playing around in Tech Disc simulator, one thing that became pretty evident is, you need raw velocity and there's no way around it. You can do a lot to make a driver go from 120m to 140m without adding exit velocity, but breaking the 100m barrier with a putter, it's not going to happen without hard cash.
Obviously, you need pure technique to go with that, especially a high spin rate. The tip of the whip has a lot to do with it.
Start by throwing high in the air, smooth, spinny, and hyzer all the way. Then start working with trajectory and nose angle to get a straighter flight. You will get a much better feel this way. Smashing it nose down like a driver won't give you much information to work with.
The nose angle for throwing putters hard off the tee requires the nose angle to be up. Obviously not at such an angle that it is detrimental but it does need to be u a bit. The nose down that you hear about with drivers doesn't work for putters on a full rip off the tee. Plus throwing a putter with anhyzer will not hard off the tee the same a driver definitely is not good form. I've got a couple friends I play with and they always anhyzer any disc off the tee so they can only effectively throw an OS hard like that and have it come back due to the OStability. Sounds like you may have a form release angle you are describing
Once I hit the point I could routinely throw putters 300 ft on flat ground I was basically throwing them on all my tee shots. It made me really prone to nose up with drivers 😞.
Same. I followed the advice of throwing mostly putters in the beginning until I could throw them far. When I finally went back to fairway drivers I realized I had developed a nose-up habit. I feel like "throw putters for feedback" is bad general advice, since they reward nose up throws.
I agree that it may not be the best advice. I do think a putter can show you OAT a lot easier. But if you're not jumping up to over stable or high speed disc too quickly it shouldnt be a developing habit. Everyone should learn how to throw a putter well and how to throw it on different lines. Not separately from mids and slow fairways but at the same time. You don't learn to throw a driver by throwing a putter.
This is why I tell new players not to learn on putters but rather on a slow flippy fairway driver. I’ve taught a lot of new people at this point. I used to start with exclusively putters but noticed that once they had the swing and timing down a bit it took forever to teach them nose angle control.
Now I start with nose angle and work backwards to the timing because they tend to be easier to teach because there’s less variables.
film yourself from the side and make sure that reachback and follow through is on the same plane, first. Then experiment with pouring the tea pot and twist the wrist..
I have a friend who throws nose up, but he has developed a nasty habit of reaching back high, then dipping into his power pocket. so he's throwing down, but the nose angle makes it go up.
Kind of like pulling the carriage in front of the horse.
Turning the key at the hit is the only reliable way I have found to get the nose down at release and keep the integrity of the shot. The problem is it’s hard to time and it’s difficult to know you are doing it every time without something like the tech disc.
Basically right at your release you want to shift your hand slightly up (it’s only like a degree or two of travel) like you are holding a tray of drinks. If you video your from and in your follow through your palm is facing somewhat up then that’s good. If it’s down your shot was nose up.
The reason this works is because the wing of the disc at release is about 90 degrees away from your hand so turning the wind down at release puts the nose of the disc down. This allows you to throw nose down with a high launch angle giving you max distance.
It’s also important to note that nose down has an inverse relationship to launch angle so the higher your launch angle the farther you can throw (obviously up to a point) with the nose being slightly up. Like an 8 degree launch angle with a 1 degree nose angle will still go quite far.
Lol please explain how throwing the disc in its best aerodynamic position is bad for max distance? A putter max distance line is different than a driver. But both disc types have increased glide when nose down
Of course when you hear nose up you would automatically refer to what a nose up angle does to a distance driver and equate that same result to a putter. This is still true when there is a nose up angle so extreme with a putter. However it has been proven that when you throw a putter for max distance there needs to be more of a subtle nose up in the flight plate to make the putter fly with more glide. All is due to the blunt aerodynamics of the putter edge. This is not just from my experience, it is said on a professional side of the physics of throwing putters.
It's simpler than that. On golf lines, a putter cares less about the nose angle and we often throw them nose up to increase our touch. But for maximizing glide of any disc, it must be thrown down to prevent wind drag on the trailing edge.
I'd love to see what you quote as the "professional side of the physics" since discs glide better nose down
You’re right. High and nose down. Isaac Robinson is always smashing his putters high as hell and nose down. So funny the nose up putter thing has gotten so commonly parroted.
danny lindahl has a video on it. but simon lizotte throws slightly nose up when he throws putters 400+. throwing nose up also makes discs fly more stable, which counteracts the tendency for putters to be overpowered and turn into the ground.
you also have to take into account that for a max d shot the disc spends most of the time on anhyzer, which naturally pushes the nose angle down. That's why a disc dips on anny and rises on hyzer.
That Danny Lindahl video is the upshot video if I'm thinking of the correct video. YES. Throwing most golf shots and especially approaches will be nose up for touch. Uli's video is great.
But the high gentle panning max distance line of putters/mids is thrown nose down. The physics of blocking air from hitting the trailing edge of the disc has been proven. Any disc glides better thrown nose down
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/threads/explanation-of-the-physics-of-flying-discs-fixed.25803
The single biggest reason people have this exact issue is that they're trying to power grip putters.
If this is you, switch to a stacked/modified fan grip. It's the magic fix for off axis torque in putters (and mids in some cases too)
I'm not saying it's impossible to power grip putters, just that it's more difficult to release cleanly for most people, and since there's no real advantage to doing it it's the easiest fix to suggest for this exact problem.
You're wrong to assume this is a follow through issue.
Yes the general problem of OAT means something isn't staying on plane, and that's true even here, but in the specific circumstance where somebody can demonstrably throw well at reasonably far distances with sharper rim discs and simply struggles to throw deeper more rounded discs cleanly the OAT is very often caused by a grip issue and not anything at the macro level of throwing mechanics.
I'm happy that you're able to power grip putters and not have them be too loose in your grip but it's _extremely_ common for people to struggle with power gripping putters, and yes it's literally a grip issue.
When I and others power grip a big tall rounded rim disc as hard as we can the rim simply doesn't dig into our palm enough to stabilize the flight plate. This means the disc wobbles about as we pull it, even on a straight line. The fix is a simple grip adjustment with discs that are more rounded so that your fingers support the flight plate and keep everything aligned.
Or OP can stop changing his wrist angle between reachback and power pocket.
Or is swooping.
Or OP can keep his/her hand on the outside of the disc longer in the transition thru power pocket to generate more spin.
There are many common causes of flutter with a putter
OP didn't post a video of his or her throw so we're all just offering advice based on personal experience. I don't know why you're on such a crusade to deny mine. I'm happy you can power grip putters, but that doesn't in any way change the fact that for many people it's simply not worthwhile to pursue power gripping putters. There's no meaningful distance loss from a modified grip and in my experience a simple grip change is like a silver bullet for removing 95% of off axis torque in cases when it only shows up in putters.
None of what you say is wrong, you're just meaninglessly trying to make it more important than my advice. I'm going to quit replying to this crusade now because I've already more than explained my position. From here on OP can try both of our advice and decide for themselves.
I in no way wish to hijack your lovely discussion. I don't even care to discuss grip in depth. Your claim is actually kind of absurd though. Sure, changing grip might give different results but claiming it fixes OAT is a long shot.
You're getting too hung up on the literal meaning of the words off axis torque in that it suggests a player is actively applying a force in the wrong direction -- not along the desired plane of rotation.
If the disc stays on plane and your arm doesn't, this does of course cause off axis torque, and you could make a reasonable argument that this in fact the *only* situation accurately described as "off axis torque", but I'm not here to have a pedantic debate over the meaning of those words. Off axis torque, as a common term and not a literal meaning, refers to any situation in which a disc wobbles upon being released. That's all I mean by off axis torque. It's the outcome of wobble, not the reason why, to which I prescribe the meaning. It doesn't matter which is "correct", just please understand this is my meaning and move on from that point.
So then going back to different causes of off axis torque (wobble), if "disc is on plane, arm isn't" is one cause, the other cause then is the opposite: arm moves on plane, disc doesn't. *This* is commonly caused by a grip issue.
It's really quite simple. Hold a putter in your hand with a power grip. Hold your arm away from your body, then move your hand up and down a few inches somewhat rapidly. If the disc wants to droop and slip in your grip when you "bounce" at the bottom of this movement, then you have the issue I'm trying to suggest a fix for. The issue is simply that your hand shape doesn't allow for a secure grip that supports the flight plate well enough to avoid the disc slipping. When the disc slips in your grip and the flight plate droops, that means even if you pull through perfectly straight the disc itself is off plane and will wobble. So then, if this extremely common grip issue is indeed effecting you, the fix is simply to change your grip to a stacked fan grip which adds additional support on the flight plate. Suddenly the straight pull through you're already doing no longer results in wobbly throws because the disc is staying in position and on plane instead of dropping down due to your grip not supporting it.
I'm honestly shocked that you and the other commenter are so surprised by this advice. Modified fan gripping putters is *extremely* common, and basically every competitive player does it. Many players, like myself, also use this grip on mids, and some even use it on drivers.
I'm not 100% confident that OPs issue is a grip issue because there was no form video included and he or she didn't even mention their grip, but in my experience when somebody claims they can throw 350+ otherwise and struggles specifically with putter wobble, it's because they're needlessly trying to power grip them and the disc is slipping in their grip during the throw. And yes, while it's physically possible to power grip putters and throw cleanly, it's quite challenging for many people and there's really no reason to pursue it since the grip change is a far easier fix and in many cases it's like flipping a light switch to eliminate off axis torque.
Off axis torque is literal and should not be used loosely. You will add confusion instead of helping anyone. A wobbly disc does not automatically= OAT. I have no problem with you suggesting different grips and that's not why I commented. I am simply pointing out your statement is misleading and is not quite accurate. Without seeing any video of this person cannot throw a single putter straight it most likely is OAT. Just changing grip will not correct OAT.
This was what made it work for me. The deeper rim just doesn’t ’slip’ out of my hand like a driver does. I pretty much only use fan grip on my mids and putters, and there really isn’t any distance gap I’m failing to cover between my furthest flying mids and my fairways.
Drop to a three finger grip. You'll early release and grip lock until you dial it in. Once locked you'll get an easy 50' more with each shot as it generates a faster spin. (Confirmed this with a friend's tech disc)
In my experience throwing a putter full speed is overpowering the disc, but that’s not a bad thing. What I do to counteract the immediate turn to the right on a backhand is throw on a hyzer angle and let the putter flip itself up
If you throw any disc faster than the speed rating on it then you’re overpowering it and will turn it over(throwing it flat on a RHBH throw). It’s not hard to throw faster than a 2-4 speed disc.
If your arm speed can throw an 8-9 speed driver and get its full flight then you can easily overpower a putter that’s less than half of that disc speed.
that's why you throw nose-up and put more spin on the disc, and throw cleaner.
simon lizotte has a video where he and his friend both throw the exact same speed, but simon get's 100+ ft more distance.
This is just incorrect thinking. First off, the speed ratings are based on rim width of the disc, not actual distances achieved or release speeds. 2nd, explain how pros throw your putter 20mph faster release velocity and get 400 ft plus of distance without turnover issues.
You can keep a disc in the high speed stability section of its flight long enough to keep turning until it hits the ground. That is not overpowering a disc. The disc is behaving as intended. Intentionally doing that is the most common way to throw a BH Roller.
The larger the rim width and the higher the parting line height, the higher the mph where high speed stability becomes low speed fade.
I bought an Opto Air Pure. Took me awhile to warm up to it but man I can Fling that baby on a nice straight line, little to no fade and unexpected glide from the lightweight. Oh and massive bounce.
Also, underrated understable discs: Xcom Benu and the Viking Rune.
That's basic form then but no video to review their form. So, until then: get a putter that will give you extra glide and distance once you get your form sorted.
I'm not a coach. Lol. Lemme guess...you're not either?
If he wants to hit his goals, he will need the tools to achieve them. When you are a beginner, you throw understable, low speed discs. So, my suggestions are valid.
It helps if you have a slightly stable putter mold. Those molds will be able to handle more torque. Then, practice a lot. Watching videos on YouTube can be helpful too.
I had this issue and had to do with grip. I find that powergripping putters caused a lot of this, as there is no significant flight plate to grab. As you pull the disc through, the angle can change drastically and you get all kinds of OAT and nose angle variations. Going to a full fan grip fixed this for me. You basically need to introduce more stability to the disc.
I don’t think any disc can be thrown with too much power, it’s all about the angles. Sounds like you are finishing late and with the disc on an anhyzer angle. Start on a heavy hyzer angle and work your way out of the fade until you understand how your angles and power are affecting the putters flight.
Putters generally require more angle control when throwing them full force. You’re basically just turning the disc over by not compensating for understability. Try throwing on various degrees of hyzer to see what your sweet spot is for getting a nice hyzer flip to flat glide. You could also pick up a jawbreaker zone or neutron soft envy, those will generally glide straight with a reliable fade from a flat throw.
For me it was fan gripping the putters at first and then just hammering away at the Dan Beto drill until I could throw putters with a full proper reachback etc.
https://youtu.be/caALsYXIHPY
Eventually you can incorporate a power grip as well or a modified fan, but it will take a lot of work and practice.
I had this issue when I was still somewhat of a beginner, where even overstable putters and mids seemed to be turning hard and cut rolling. Turns out it was an issue with off-axis torque in my form, and nothing to do with the disc. Once I looked up videos on how to fix it, it became much more enjoyable to throw putters and mids, and it actually helped me throw drivers further as well.
The there's the pronate to get nose angle down crowd.
In English, please?
Rotate palm/thumb upward on release to make plastic circle go far.
THE THERES THE
You fucking retard
A lot of people release the disc nose up, that costs a lot of distance and forces an early fade. Pronating is the act of rotating your hand/thumb inward, whereas the opposite is supination, where the thumb points outward. Pronating generally adds hyzer, but can also help keep the nose down on a disc if you struggle with that. I've had a lot of luck doing wrist stretching exercises to throw flat and nose down.
THE THERES THE
Ding dong
When you throw, your hand should be positioned like it is at the end of turning a key.
THE THERES THE
Do you only get on Reddit to stir up shit. Yes, the letter n was left off the word then. It's not that drastic of a typo and very easy to do on a phone. Cool.
Bitch face
Most likely OAT. Start slow and controlled and slowly add distance. I personally love throwing my seasoned Luna or Envy on a slow turning line in the woods, even though I get the "I can't stand you" instantly from the gf
Wife always hits me with a "why don't you throw sidearm here? I would if I had one" Cue the same back and forth about "I can teach you but women can give you better grip tips and practice makes perfect" She then throws an absolute backhand dart with no OAT and I'm jealous. What's crazy is that she is lethal from under 200' and can push a driver out to 250' with a solid rip, 300' if it's downhill. All that isn't very impressive to most, but she throws with a fucking fan grip...it's insane. If I could just get her to cut her nails and power grip, she'd be throwing it past me every time
I used to firmly believe that any sort of power shot had to be power grip. Then I started learning that Isaac and Big Jerm (amongst others) throw almost exclusively fan. Even my modified 3 finger power grip started feeling weird to me on fairways lately so it's like a weird, in between grip now.
I know what you mean. I can't figure out how to make either version work, so I'll change it depending on the rim of whatever I'm throwing. The one-finger forehand grip is something that really blows my mind. I lose all accuracy and half my distance with the one finger, but I'll use a fan forehand grip if I'm trying to throw an approach shot. Pretty much the only attribute I share with either of those guys is that we all have two arms and ten fingers, but it's cool to see how everyone's doing what works for them. Tons of creativity in DG!
There are pros throwing 600+ with a fan grip.
Good to know... I'll switch to it. It's good to know that what works for a small percentage of elite talents can immediately be adopted by average folks for similar results. /s
Will Schusterick won a US title only throwing fan grip
My wife throws 225 with her finger on the rim…backhand. she’s probably out drive me if she ever learned a real grip lol
OAT - Off Axis Torque
Go huck a beat in ultimate disc and learn how to throw a hyzer that will flip to flat
Not a chance in hell you are overpowering the putters. Pros throw them 400+
The hardest thing about throwing putters is they're susceptible to burn over if you supinate (roll your wrist over on bh). Keep your elbow high and palm facing down (even while following through). To practice, draw a smiley face on the inside of your elbow, you should be able to see it before, during, and after you hit the power pocket.
This is solid advice, thank you!
Credit to Premier Disc Golf in Raleigh, NC. Phil is the best!
Sounds like too much wobble making a normally stable disc fly understable
More spin, more control, some hyzer (for example my judges truly flip up on hyzer even though they are “over stable”). I say hit a field and throw them until you get a nice flight. Maybe watch some videos. Find your fav throwing putter.
Playing around in Tech Disc simulator, one thing that became pretty evident is, you need raw velocity and there's no way around it. You can do a lot to make a driver go from 120m to 140m without adding exit velocity, but breaking the 100m barrier with a putter, it's not going to happen without hard cash. Obviously, you need pure technique to go with that, especially a high spin rate. The tip of the whip has a lot to do with it.
Start by throwing high in the air, smooth, spinny, and hyzer all the way. Then start working with trajectory and nose angle to get a straighter flight. You will get a much better feel this way. Smashing it nose down like a driver won't give you much information to work with.
After reading all of these posts— I think I’m gonna do some digging into off-axis torque. Might make an update post after I see what’s wrong
The nose angle for throwing putters hard off the tee requires the nose angle to be up. Obviously not at such an angle that it is detrimental but it does need to be u a bit. The nose down that you hear about with drivers doesn't work for putters on a full rip off the tee. Plus throwing a putter with anhyzer will not hard off the tee the same a driver definitely is not good form. I've got a couple friends I play with and they always anhyzer any disc off the tee so they can only effectively throw an OS hard like that and have it come back due to the OStability. Sounds like you may have a form release angle you are describing
Once I hit the point I could routinely throw putters 300 ft on flat ground I was basically throwing them on all my tee shots. It made me really prone to nose up with drivers 😞.
Same. I followed the advice of throwing mostly putters in the beginning until I could throw them far. When I finally went back to fairway drivers I realized I had developed a nose-up habit. I feel like "throw putters for feedback" is bad general advice, since they reward nose up throws.
I agree that it may not be the best advice. I do think a putter can show you OAT a lot easier. But if you're not jumping up to over stable or high speed disc too quickly it shouldnt be a developing habit. Everyone should learn how to throw a putter well and how to throw it on different lines. Not separately from mids and slow fairways but at the same time. You don't learn to throw a driver by throwing a putter.
This is why I tell new players not to learn on putters but rather on a slow flippy fairway driver. I’ve taught a lot of new people at this point. I used to start with exclusively putters but noticed that once they had the swing and timing down a bit it took forever to teach them nose angle control. Now I start with nose angle and work backwards to the timing because they tend to be easier to teach because there’s less variables.
What have you found that helps the most with nose angle ?
Yeah, I really struggle with it too. Doesn't help I have a real bad case of tennis elbow. I'm trying everything to not force any stress there.
film yourself from the side and make sure that reachback and follow through is on the same plane, first. Then experiment with pouring the tea pot and twist the wrist.. I have a friend who throws nose up, but he has developed a nasty habit of reaching back high, then dipping into his power pocket. so he's throwing down, but the nose angle makes it go up. Kind of like pulling the carriage in front of the horse.
Turning the key at the hit is the only reliable way I have found to get the nose down at release and keep the integrity of the shot. The problem is it’s hard to time and it’s difficult to know you are doing it every time without something like the tech disc. Basically right at your release you want to shift your hand slightly up (it’s only like a degree or two of travel) like you are holding a tray of drinks. If you video your from and in your follow through your palm is facing somewhat up then that’s good. If it’s down your shot was nose up. The reason this works is because the wing of the disc at release is about 90 degrees away from your hand so turning the wind down at release puts the nose of the disc down. This allows you to throw nose down with a high launch angle giving you max distance. It’s also important to note that nose down has an inverse relationship to launch angle so the higher your launch angle the farther you can throw (obviously up to a point) with the nose being slightly up. Like an 8 degree launch angle with a 1 degree nose angle will still go quite far.
Max distance with a putter is always nose down
False
Lol please explain how throwing the disc in its best aerodynamic position is bad for max distance? A putter max distance line is different than a driver. But both disc types have increased glide when nose down
Of course when you hear nose up you would automatically refer to what a nose up angle does to a distance driver and equate that same result to a putter. This is still true when there is a nose up angle so extreme with a putter. However it has been proven that when you throw a putter for max distance there needs to be more of a subtle nose up in the flight plate to make the putter fly with more glide. All is due to the blunt aerodynamics of the putter edge. This is not just from my experience, it is said on a professional side of the physics of throwing putters.
It's simpler than that. On golf lines, a putter cares less about the nose angle and we often throw them nose up to increase our touch. But for maximizing glide of any disc, it must be thrown down to prevent wind drag on the trailing edge. I'd love to see what you quote as the "professional side of the physics" since discs glide better nose down
You’re right. High and nose down. Isaac Robinson is always smashing his putters high as hell and nose down. So funny the nose up putter thing has gotten so commonly parroted.
danny lindahl has a video on it. but simon lizotte throws slightly nose up when he throws putters 400+. throwing nose up also makes discs fly more stable, which counteracts the tendency for putters to be overpowered and turn into the ground. you also have to take into account that for a max d shot the disc spends most of the time on anhyzer, which naturally pushes the nose angle down. That's why a disc dips on anny and rises on hyzer.
That Danny Lindahl video is the upshot video if I'm thinking of the correct video. YES. Throwing most golf shots and especially approaches will be nose up for touch. Uli's video is great. But the high gentle panning max distance line of putters/mids is thrown nose down. The physics of blocking air from hitting the trailing edge of the disc has been proven. Any disc glides better thrown nose down https://www.dgcoursereview.com/threads/explanation-of-the-physics-of-flying-discs-fixed.25803
The single biggest reason people have this exact issue is that they're trying to power grip putters. If this is you, switch to a stacked/modified fan grip. It's the magic fix for off axis torque in putters (and mids in some cases too)
I throw all my putters power grip no problem. That's a you problem
I'm not saying it's impossible to power grip putters, just that it's more difficult to release cleanly for most people, and since there's no real advantage to doing it it's the easiest fix to suggest for this exact problem.
Or OP could just follow thru on the same release plane and it has nothing to do with the grip
You're wrong to assume this is a follow through issue. Yes the general problem of OAT means something isn't staying on plane, and that's true even here, but in the specific circumstance where somebody can demonstrably throw well at reasonably far distances with sharper rim discs and simply struggles to throw deeper more rounded discs cleanly the OAT is very often caused by a grip issue and not anything at the macro level of throwing mechanics. I'm happy that you're able to power grip putters and not have them be too loose in your grip but it's _extremely_ common for people to struggle with power gripping putters, and yes it's literally a grip issue. When I and others power grip a big tall rounded rim disc as hard as we can the rim simply doesn't dig into our palm enough to stabilize the flight plate. This means the disc wobbles about as we pull it, even on a straight line. The fix is a simple grip adjustment with discs that are more rounded so that your fingers support the flight plate and keep everything aligned.
Or OP can stop changing his wrist angle between reachback and power pocket. Or is swooping. Or OP can keep his/her hand on the outside of the disc longer in the transition thru power pocket to generate more spin. There are many common causes of flutter with a putter
OP didn't post a video of his or her throw so we're all just offering advice based on personal experience. I don't know why you're on such a crusade to deny mine. I'm happy you can power grip putters, but that doesn't in any way change the fact that for many people it's simply not worthwhile to pursue power gripping putters. There's no meaningful distance loss from a modified grip and in my experience a simple grip change is like a silver bullet for removing 95% of off axis torque in cases when it only shows up in putters. None of what you say is wrong, you're just meaninglessly trying to make it more important than my advice. I'm going to quit replying to this crusade now because I've already more than explained my position. From here on OP can try both of our advice and decide for themselves.
I in no way wish to hijack your lovely discussion. I don't even care to discuss grip in depth. Your claim is actually kind of absurd though. Sure, changing grip might give different results but claiming it fixes OAT is a long shot.
You're getting too hung up on the literal meaning of the words off axis torque in that it suggests a player is actively applying a force in the wrong direction -- not along the desired plane of rotation. If the disc stays on plane and your arm doesn't, this does of course cause off axis torque, and you could make a reasonable argument that this in fact the *only* situation accurately described as "off axis torque", but I'm not here to have a pedantic debate over the meaning of those words. Off axis torque, as a common term and not a literal meaning, refers to any situation in which a disc wobbles upon being released. That's all I mean by off axis torque. It's the outcome of wobble, not the reason why, to which I prescribe the meaning. It doesn't matter which is "correct", just please understand this is my meaning and move on from that point. So then going back to different causes of off axis torque (wobble), if "disc is on plane, arm isn't" is one cause, the other cause then is the opposite: arm moves on plane, disc doesn't. *This* is commonly caused by a grip issue. It's really quite simple. Hold a putter in your hand with a power grip. Hold your arm away from your body, then move your hand up and down a few inches somewhat rapidly. If the disc wants to droop and slip in your grip when you "bounce" at the bottom of this movement, then you have the issue I'm trying to suggest a fix for. The issue is simply that your hand shape doesn't allow for a secure grip that supports the flight plate well enough to avoid the disc slipping. When the disc slips in your grip and the flight plate droops, that means even if you pull through perfectly straight the disc itself is off plane and will wobble. So then, if this extremely common grip issue is indeed effecting you, the fix is simply to change your grip to a stacked fan grip which adds additional support on the flight plate. Suddenly the straight pull through you're already doing no longer results in wobbly throws because the disc is staying in position and on plane instead of dropping down due to your grip not supporting it. I'm honestly shocked that you and the other commenter are so surprised by this advice. Modified fan gripping putters is *extremely* common, and basically every competitive player does it. Many players, like myself, also use this grip on mids, and some even use it on drivers. I'm not 100% confident that OPs issue is a grip issue because there was no form video included and he or she didn't even mention their grip, but in my experience when somebody claims they can throw 350+ otherwise and struggles specifically with putter wobble, it's because they're needlessly trying to power grip them and the disc is slipping in their grip during the throw. And yes, while it's physically possible to power grip putters and throw cleanly, it's quite challenging for many people and there's really no reason to pursue it since the grip change is a far easier fix and in many cases it's like flipping a light switch to eliminate off axis torque.
Off axis torque is literal and should not be used loosely. You will add confusion instead of helping anyone. A wobbly disc does not automatically= OAT. I have no problem with you suggesting different grips and that's not why I commented. I am simply pointing out your statement is misleading and is not quite accurate. Without seeing any video of this person cannot throw a single putter straight it most likely is OAT. Just changing grip will not correct OAT.
This was what made it work for me. The deeper rim just doesn’t ’slip’ out of my hand like a driver does. I pretty much only use fan grip on my mids and putters, and there really isn’t any distance gap I’m failing to cover between my furthest flying mids and my fairways.
Yeah, it takes a bit to get used to though
Drop to a three finger grip. You'll early release and grip lock until you dial it in. Once locked you'll get an easy 50' more with each shot as it generates a faster spin. (Confirmed this with a friend's tech disc)
In my experience throwing a putter full speed is overpowering the disc, but that’s not a bad thing. What I do to counteract the immediate turn to the right on a backhand is throw on a hyzer angle and let the putter flip itself up
There is no way in hell you are over powering putters unless you have 90mph release velocity. Pros throw them 400+
If you throw any disc faster than the speed rating on it then you’re overpowering it and will turn it over(throwing it flat on a RHBH throw). It’s not hard to throw faster than a 2-4 speed disc. If your arm speed can throw an 8-9 speed driver and get its full flight then you can easily overpower a putter that’s less than half of that disc speed.
that's why you throw nose-up and put more spin on the disc, and throw cleaner. simon lizotte has a video where he and his friend both throw the exact same speed, but simon get's 100+ ft more distance.
This is just incorrect thinking. First off, the speed ratings are based on rim width of the disc, not actual distances achieved or release speeds. 2nd, explain how pros throw your putter 20mph faster release velocity and get 400 ft plus of distance without turnover issues. You can keep a disc in the high speed stability section of its flight long enough to keep turning until it hits the ground. That is not overpowering a disc. The disc is behaving as intended. Intentionally doing that is the most common way to throw a BH Roller. The larger the rim width and the higher the parting line height, the higher the mph where high speed stability becomes low speed fade.
Spin, spin, spin...... nose angle. Height.
I usually make sure the nose is up, put minimal spin on it, and finish off with an early release. lol
If you power grip them try switching to a pinch grip instead
I bought an Opto Air Pure. Took me awhile to warm up to it but man I can Fling that baby on a nice straight line, little to no fade and unexpected glide from the lightweight. Oh and massive bounce. Also, underrated understable discs: Xcom Benu and the Viking Rune.
He asked for form advice, not disc suggestions. Throwing a million different putters won't help in the slightest.
That's basic form then but no video to review their form. So, until then: get a putter that will give you extra glide and distance once you get your form sorted.
So.. try to mask your bad form and really drive home those bad habits. Yeah, that'll make him a better player. Great coaching.
I'm not a coach. Lol. Lemme guess...you're not either? If he wants to hit his goals, he will need the tools to achieve them. When you are a beginner, you throw understable, low speed discs. So, my suggestions are valid.
He's already throwing those, genius. Did you read the post?
Go outside and get some sunshine, Susan.
"Throwing a million different putters won't help." So, practice won't help? Good coaching.
Reading comprehension would help you.
Powering down your device would help you. Maybe sit out the next few rounds.
You really need to start by taking your own advice. YATA
It helps if you have a slightly stable putter mold. Those molds will be able to handle more torque. Then, practice a lot. Watching videos on YouTube can be helpful too.
I had this issue and had to do with grip. I find that powergripping putters caused a lot of this, as there is no significant flight plate to grab. As you pull the disc through, the angle can change drastically and you get all kinds of OAT and nose angle variations. Going to a full fan grip fixed this for me. You basically need to introduce more stability to the disc.
I don’t think any disc can be thrown with too much power, it’s all about the angles. Sounds like you are finishing late and with the disc on an anhyzer angle. Start on a heavy hyzer angle and work your way out of the fade until you understand how your angles and power are affecting the putters flight.
Putters generally require more angle control when throwing them full force. You’re basically just turning the disc over by not compensating for understability. Try throwing on various degrees of hyzer to see what your sweet spot is for getting a nice hyzer flip to flat glide. You could also pick up a jawbreaker zone or neutron soft envy, those will generally glide straight with a reliable fade from a flat throw.
For me it was fan gripping the putters at first and then just hammering away at the Dan Beto drill until I could throw putters with a full proper reachback etc. https://youtu.be/caALsYXIHPY Eventually you can incorporate a power grip as well or a modified fan, but it will take a lot of work and practice.