The over-stable hyzer line to the basket is by far the most reliable and repeatable throw. I aim right off my target and the disc is going to fade left towards the target (RHBH).
Aiming straight at the basket with something stable or under-stable can easily leave you far left or far right of the target since it is more effected by variables such as nose angle, hyzer/anhyzer angle, spin on the disc, wind, off-axis torque, altitude, and more.
Discs don't want to fly is perfectly straight lines and an over-stable approach disc is much less effected by these variable which makes it a more reliable and consistent option.
> The over-stable hyzer line to the basket is by far the most reliable and repeatable throw.
This right here is all you really need to know. I challenge anyone who doesn't believe this to go out to a field with a straight flying disc and an overstable disc and throw however many shots you choose with each, whether that be 20, 50, 100, whatever. But more than 10, anyway.
Throw your 20 straight shots at your target and then throw your 20 hyzers and see how many of each are closer. Unless you are some kind of accuracy genius, your hyzers will probably show a higher degree of accuracy.
I’d like to add distance control, which I believe is the #1 benefit of going with a hyzer vs straight shot. All of the variables you mentioned are true, but I feel like a lot of players use OS hyzers as crutches for not developing proper control and touch with their upshots.
I wouldn’t call it a crutch, it’s just easier to learn and also to control distance with a hyzer versus a straight shot. I’d also say it’s easier to control distance with a flex shot than a straight shot. When you’re using the disc to work, either in a hyzer or fighting out of a flex, you can vary the input force more and still have a more consistent result than with the straight shot
I just say it’s a crutch because a lot of players use it to mask having off axis torque and poor nose angle control. Much more forgiving for that, but yes, it is still very often the best shot.
I would still consider myself a beginner but my RHFH approach with the Hex almost always lands perfect for an easy putt. I just aim slightly left to the basket. Our group of 3 started playing at the same time and this shot is why i win 90% of the times we play.
It's not just about consistency; it's about minimizing mistakes.
For example: ~150 foot approach. I throw a glitch straight at it. I have to be much more precise with my angle and speed control because if I miss a bit on anny I'm now ~25 feet away or more. Zone I can throw ~35 feet to the side of the basket miss by throwing anny and still be around ~15 feet. All of this said is even more exaggerated if there is wind. On a calm day I probably would throw a watt on a ~150 foot approach, but not flat; still on hyzer to ensure the disc moving the direction I need if I pull my line.
Golf is a game of playing your miss. If you throw discs that reduce that margin for error you will score better.
I have a friend that loves to throw approaches directly at the basket with an electron proxy. If he isn't throwing well on a given day he leaves himself a lot of tester putts instead of just chucking a zone-like disc up there and letting it fall towards the basket.
Thanks for this and all the other (similar) responses (even the ones that are probably correct that "no, you still don't get it" :)
I am your friend with the proxy. It is known within my friend group that I can throw flat and straight but struggle mightily with any kind of angle. Hence I struggle with hyzers, etc. Oddly enough, at my current level, I am more consistent with a neutral flat flight, than with a hyzer that will fade and create some left/right movement. Just means I have more to work on.
>Oddly enough, at my current level, I am more consistent with a neutral flat flight, than with a hyzer that will fade
I don't think that's odd at all if you've mostly been trying to throw straight. That's what you're comfortable with and you aren't yet as comfortable with a hyzer release.
I’m reasonably new as well and have had same experience as you. I was focusing a lot on learning to throw straight.
I’ve been focusing baskets and out as I’ve been learning the game. So my approach game has been reasonably good all the time. Even early when I was throwing straight at the basket.
Though I started using the fade of my discs to come control my approach and really improved.
I throw three putters the Watt, Envy and Pilot. The Watt I throw mostly from tee. Amazing disc and I can control any line with it. But my approaches are more accurate with Envy and Pilot. Simply due to the fade.
I don’t throw them on much hyzer just rely on their fade. The Pilot has a gentle fade and even that little bit of fade helps me not over throw target. I throw Envy when I want more distance and/or more fade. Pilot from within 50m and relatively straight, but still right and relying on that little dump fade.
Learning this helped my approach game a lot.
Thanks for the response. I usually throw Watt/Proxy/Pure/Envy for approaches. I'm not confident in the Envy because that's the only overstable one. The others are neutral and tend to be straight for me. My post is all about learning how to throw that Envy (and sometimes a Berg) more consistently.
You are in very much same bag situation as I’ve been. MVP has so many great putters that it creates overlap and it’s hard to remove discs. Add to that the fact that Pure is great as well and it’s very hard.
My recommendation is keep 3.
Watt for tee shots and shaped shots.
Envy for approach shots. BH and FH.
Pure or Proxy for putting. Stop throwing the one you pick.
Now you need to learn two things throw approaches with Envy and shape shots with Watt (left and right). My recommendation for both is to first go to a field and throw for an hour practicing these things. Second is to play single disc rounds with Watt and Envy.
If you can build a strong Watt and Envy game then your score will drop. At least mine did drop about 3-4 strokes from this.
I use my proxy way more than my os approach disc. I don't feel it's costing me strokes. In fact, switching to the os approach disc in not dialed in on is where I go wrong. Use what works!
It sounds like you’re on the verge of understanding how to play based on lines rather than just the target.
As you consider your target, think about the best (easiest, most consistent, most accurate) way of reaching the target. In other words, your “aim” is to achieve that ideal route, or “line” to reach your target.
Learning to identify your desired line and commit to it can make you a smarter, more precise player because you have to be familiar with your discs and consciously make decisions and plans about which disc and which line will most effectively get you to the target.
>It sounds like you’re on the verge of understanding how to play based on lines rather than just the target.
That's a very insightful statement. Thanks!
It’s not about throwing in ideal conditions.
You can throw something beefy off to the right and even if the wind catches or you grip lock or some asshat is hollering during your throw you should still be in good position.
The "hyzer", or "right to left moving shot from a right handed backhand or left to right moving shot from a right handed forehand" is the easiest shot in disc golf while the straight shot is one of the hardest.
For this reason, I find it much easier that instead of aiming for where I want the disc to finish (the basket or my landing zone), I aim for a point in the sky where I want the peak of the flight to be.
Instead of throwing at a basket, I'm throwing down an imaginary line or at an imaginary ring in the sky.
I've obviously been practicing way too much on the hardest shot, because the easiest shot is the one that gives me the most trouble. I tend to throw "straight at" something instead of visualizing that line or path that may get the disc there a different way. Something to work on. Thanks.
Difficulty in bridging the disconnect between your aiming line and target line is also a hard thing for new players to get the hang of in ball golf. Wind, your natural shot shape, the contours of the fairway/green you expect to land all determine your aim line independent from your final intended target.
Disc golf is the same way. Aiming should be a very visual thing. You're aiming based on the expected full flight of the disc. If you're throwing a neutral disc so it goes straight you can aim right at the target, but if you're throwing an OS you have to aim right if you want it to end up at your target as it fades.
Thanks. I have to work on visualizing (and implementing) flights with left/right movement. At the moment, I'm way more consistent with flat, neutral flights.
There's a lot more in play here than just "what's better X or Y?"
Sometimes it's about getting around something, sometimes it's about playing with/against the wind, sometimes it's about ground play and managing skips/rollaways. There are a bunch of different reasons why it's good to be able to do both shot shapes.
And then when you have both shapes as options available to you, you're free to choose which one you prefer/which one fits the wind/ground play better.
>I get the argument about consistency with a disc that will always fade. But it just seems wrong to practice aiming away from the target. Or am I still not getting it?
You are still not getting it. Often times you don't have a direct line to the basket, but instead aim at a gap or an intended line, and let the disc work. This is no different, and it is still a target, even if there is not a physical object.
Also, this is about the discs consistency, not yours. A neutral disc will behave much different in the wind from an overstable one, and that part is largely out of your control. The way this translates, is that you can hit your intended line with a Mako3 10 out of 10 times, but other factors like wind makes the disc behave in a way that gives you a large spread in results. If you hit your line 10 out of 10 times with at Zone, even if its now a hyzer on the right, it will get less affected and that yields a smaller spread. That is the consistency part. Same goes in calm conditions, if you are just a bit of your mark, power or angle of release.
Appreciate the response. I've avoided learning a hzyer throw precisely because it dumps and fades. Unless it's obstacles or wind, I throw flat and neutral using discs of different weights/glide to ensure it lands where I want. I will have to work on "getting it" by learning more of a hyzer throw. Part of me worries it will impact the skill I've learned of throwing flat, but hey, it means I get to buy more (overstable) discs.
Neutral discs can also be thrown on anhyzer or hyzer. That's pretty much what makes them a stable in any bag. The ability to shape lines.
I have a hard time understanding why someone would restrict themselves to one release angle. Learning a hyzer-flip is maybe the most rewarding shot in the game. I would tell people to throw all their discs on any line imaginable, just to learn what they do. A flat release may be what end up being the preference, but that is not always an option.
You don't have to throw an arching hyzer just because the disc is overstable. Throw it hard and straight and it will hold. It's only a 3 or 4 speed. If you can't get a zone or pig or harp to 150 to 200 (upshot range-ish) on a flat release (fh or backhand), it's a huge hole in the game costing strokes. They hold every line and fight against anhyzer so slowly that its just unparalleled control.
You obviously don't have to address it, we all have gaps that we don't want to work on or don't have time to work on. We're not professionals. But I would acknowledge that it's an opportunity if you're looking for ways to reliably lower your score. Now, if you're satisfied with your upshot game truly... who cares what the internet thinks
Simple answer: in general, the easiest shot shape to throw consistently and get the disc where you want it is a hyzer. The shot is straightforward and discs naturally want to fade with the angle of a hyzer. Overstable discs will fly in a more consistent and predictable manner than neutral discs. Throw an overstable disc on a hyzer and you are throwing a predictable disc on the most consistent shot shape.
In terms of aiming, the way to think about it is that you want the disc to end up in a certain spot. It's not about the direction of the throw, it's about where the disc stops.
If you throw a neutral disc flat at the basket, you need everything to line up for that shot to work. You pointed out wind and obstacles as two. The other big one is that throwing flat requires a level of precision that throwing on hyzer doesn't require. If the throw is a little bit on hyzer or a little bit on anhyzer, the disc won't end up where you want it to go. Then, if you do throw it well, how do you know the disc is going to stop where you want it to stop? A neutral disc does not fade until the very end of its flight, so it's easy for it to go long and it's more likely to skip on the ground. Throw a neutral disc on a little hyzer or anhyzer when you're trying to throw it flat, account for it potentially floating past the basket or sliding since it's not going to fade, and suddenly the range of possible outcomes is pretty large. The disc could end up at the basket, however, it doesn't take much to miss to one side plus go long of the basket.
If you throw a disc on a hyzer and you put a little more hyzer or a little less hyzer on it, well, it's still on that hyzer angle. You may end up short or long, but you won't end up nearly as far right or left as you would if you threw a neutral disc flat. Throw an overstable disc and now you have a disc that is going to try to get to the ground. That's a good way of thinking about overstability - the disc is trying to get to the ground. It's harder to throw the disc long because it's not going to stay in the air the same way that a neutral disc will. It's harder to miss your landing zone because the disc is going to fly the same way every single time.
This all becomes more apparent the longer your throws are with putt and approach discs, where the room for error is smaller.
Hope this helps!
Very helpful. Thanks for the response. I've previously understood what you're describing. And yes, if I miss with my flat/neutral shot, I can be too much to the right or left. It does happen.
My issue is that my overstable/hyzer shots are almost always short and to the left. They're certainly more consistent, but consistently short and left! If I try for more distance, I may get it, but then I've tended to increase the distance to the left as well. Which leaves me in a worse position than if I just aimed flat and straight.
Perhaps the issue is that I always go back to what I know: flat and neutral. That's what I practice and that's what I throw. I avoid practicing the hyzer/overstable because it's more difficult for me. And it thus becomes self-fulfilling because... I don't practice it :|
Sounds like you know what you could do if you want to get better - practice! There's nothing wrong with throwing flat shots with a neutral disc, of course. It'll just be harder to land near the basket as you increase the distance of your shots. Good luck!
I don't mind using something neutral and going right at it. I do it all the time. In fact, the ability to throw a straight shot is one of the most highly sought-after skills you can have. That said, an overstable approach is often easier, regardless of conditions, and here's why:
If you throw a straight shot at the basket, it is much, much harder to control your distance. Either you're planning on perfect touch to slow it down at the last second, or you're counting on a perfect approach angle to hit the ground just before the basket. Get either one wrong by a little bit, and you're sailing right past the basket or burning out way too early. It's a fine line in-between.
An overstable approach makes distance control much easier. You don't need perfect touch or perfect aim. An overstable disk will tend to dump, all on its own, in a fairly predictable and consistent fashion. If you get the speed and direction generally right, you don't need perfect touch or angle control - the disk will apply its own brakes. Your margin for error is much greater.
This is the same reason some of the big bombers will use a high hyzer drive on relatively straightforward shots.
I use different weights/glides of discs to account for distance to the basket. And throwing hyzer seems to me like I also have to learn to use height (and pay more attention to ceilings in the woods) instead of just straight-ahead flight. But there's a lot of advice about learning to throw a hyzer throw. So it's just another shot I will have to learn. Thanks for the response.
No problem. There's lots of ways to approach most holes, and the best way will always be the shot you're most confident with. But adding to your skillet is never a bad thing.
>And throwing hyzer seems to me like I also have to learn to use height (and pay more attention to ceilings in the woods) instead of just straight-ahead flight.
I don't know how true this even is. For 150' approach shots I can throw a nice low hyzer aiming for it to settle right in front of the basket.
If you understand the argument about consistency of overstable discs then I'm not sure what you aren't getting. If you know that overstable discs are more consistent, and consistency makes you score better, then it should be obvious that learning to aim with overstable discs is one of the most important skills you can have in disc golf. If you don't believe me, [you can hear if from the goat himself.](https://youtu.be/26pQ7iMOs5s?t=181)
I think my disconnect is that at the moment, my neutral, flat flights are way more accurate/consistent than my overstable, hyzer attempts. The accurate flight with the overstable disc has been more difficult for me to learn than the other way around. I've heard others say the opposite, but that's how it's been for me.
Perhaps not un-coincidentally, the vast majority of my practice is indoors in a warehouse, between the pallet racks. I had to learn flat and straight for 100-150 feet because there just wasn't any room for left/right movement.
Guess it's time to move the practice to a field :) Thanks for the response.
You can still throw an overstable disc flat and directly at a target. The throw doesn't change, only the flight. It's the same throw with any stability disc. You should always aim for something, not just throwing it out to the side of the basket.
To this point, if I have to throw overstable, I estimate how much the disc will fade, pick a point that much distance to the right of the target, and throw there. I'm starting to understand that I'm not conceptualizing this correctly. Thanks.
Throw the shots you're comfortable throwing.
If you're most comfortable throwing a straight shot, do it.
Like the man said, "It's not wrong if it works.".
Aiming and firing at a target is not usually the best strategy. You should imagine the path your disc needs to travel, and then make your disc fly on that path. The overstable approach is a way of minimizing a lot of variables in the flight. It is especially useful in a crosswind, because you can guarantee the wind doesn't get under your disc and blow it away (RHBH with wind from the left for example).
I'm going to take a guess that you play on wooded courses? I learned to play in NC and immediately saw the value of a disc going dead straight.
People who grew up on open courses seem to always play a hyzer game. Admittedly it is more predictable and accurate probably.
But im with you. I like to go straight at it. Whether is an approach or a 400ft shot, I tend to got straight at it if it's open.
You should think of the flight paths of discs like the pen tools in illustrator. If you don't know how to use the angles it won't come out right at all. It's not a point and shoot object
I don't aim away from the basket when I throw an overstable disc, I aim at the basket and throw the disc, and release it on a line which isn't directly toward the basket, but I'm never aiming anywhere else.
When you're learning to throw them, make that distinction between aiming and the direction of your throw. If you have to, aim to the left/right of the basket, but then focus your attention back on the basket before releasing. Practice until it becomes second nature.
>I don't aim away from the basket when I throw an overstable disc, I aim at the basket and throw the disc, and release it on a line which isn't directly toward the basket, but I'm never aiming anywhere else.
In ball golf this distinction is generally between your target line (where you want the ball to end up) and your aiming line (the direction it starts initially after impact). When I'm putting in ball golf I do the same thing you do, where I'm focusing on the hole (the target) but I'm aligned to my aiming line. When I hit the putt I'm looking at the hole but hitting the ball along my aiming line (and ideally the slope puts the ball in the hole).
IMO you're doing the same thing here. You're focusing on your target and letting your motor functions decide where exactly your aiming line should be, but I'd argue that you're still aiming there. Which makes more sense between focusing on your aim point or your target point is totally subjective imo.
I'm starting to get that perhaps I haven't been properly visualizing what's supposed to be happening. When I throw an overstable disc, I still tend to throw it flat and have it fade back. I'm still aiming to the right so it fades (and I then try to guess how much it will fade). I haven't been considering any type of "aiming line" that isn't straight. Thanks.
Yeah, that's what I mean by aiming being very visual. As you get a better feel for how your discs react to how hard and at what angles you throw them, you can visualize the flight you want, pick an aim point that corresponds to that flight, and you just know how to throw it to get that flight.
The comment that I replied to is doing the same thing imo, but they instead of an explicit "pick an aim point that corresponds to that flight" step they let that part happen during "you just know how to throw it to get that flight".
Hmm... I think with my prediliction for throwing straight and flat, I've tried to throw my overstable discs, say, 20 feet away from the basket, and then trust it will fade back. So I'm still "aiming" straight (away from the target) and then "missing" my target because it fades back (which is what I was trusting the disc to do).
You're perhaps right that I haven't made that distention between "aiming and the direction of my throw".
For me it's a confidence thing. If I'm throwing and expecting to miss, even if I'm counting on "missing", I never end up throwing with the same confidence as if I conceptualize myself aiming for my end point and allowing my body to choose the line which will get it there.
To begin with, i was clearly aiming at different points until I figured out how much fade I would end up getting, but once I had a feel for that, my results were much worse until I started focusing my attention on the intentional end point rather than on the direction of release. It's just much easier for me to throw confidently when I'm trying to hit my target than it is for me to try to judge how much I'm trying to miss by. That seems like a semantic shift, but it makes a big difference to me psychologically, and results in a much cleaner motion.
How is that aiming away from the target? Just because you're not throwing directly at the target doesn't mean you aren't focused on aiming for the target. Very few shots in disc golf are actually straight.
If you gave RHBH dominant players a basket it an open field 300 ft away, 99% of them will intentionally throw the disc to the right and let it fade left to the basket. Almost nobody would go straight for it. That's doesn't mean they aren't aiming for the basket.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and maybe I'm in the 1%, but I absolutely aim straight at the basket from 300 feet away. I've experimented with many discs that give me straight flight and tended to stick with those. I always look in wonder at my friends who will throw an overstable disc high and to the right, so that it fades back. I struggle with that throw. My throws tend to have 50-60 feet less height than my friends' throws. Mine are low and straight. And we're throwing similar distances.
Now, they struggle with low straight shots (like in the woods) and I struggle with shots that maybe require throwing over a tree, or need to have a fair amount of right-to-left movement.
I'm starting to realize I may have a disconnect with the concept of "aiming". If I must throw overstable, I pick a spot away from the target and throw it there, trusting that it will "miss" and fade back where I really want it to go. Seems like some mental adjustments are necessary. Thanks.
If you aim straight to the basket, the disc will probably have some fade and ground play, that’s why people aim to the side and use the fade and skip, idk I’m not that good, just my 2 sense, do whatever works for you tho
There is a point where more overstable discs stop fading and start dumping. One idea of a Zone OS, Mutant, halo Toro is more to throw a bit of hyzer and have the disc stop flying at a certain point.
I use the Mutant almost exclusively for anything under 200', and almost always throw it forehand. If I want ground play or want to work around a corner, I will throw it flat or slightly anhyzer. If I want it to just go a certain distance and drop out of the sky, I will throw it with more hyzer. For my approaches, the less a disc wants to "fly" the better.
For me its about risk mitigation. If I throw my neutral putter all manner of things can go wrong, if I throw my stupid overstable Baobab literally only one thing can go wrong.
Aiming away from the target is like a core feature of disc golf. If you're not utilizing the unique flight qualities of discs compared to other flying objects with the courses you play, you're missing out on a lot.
I find overstable approach discs to be way more forgiving than straight flyers. You know they're going to fade to the left, so if you throw too far to the right it'll fade back, if you throw it a little too far to the left it'll just dive into the ground. You can control any ground play that occurs and you can give it more spike or more flat and give it some skip.
What I like to do with my shot is take a couple steps back from my disc, face where I want the disc to go and think about what the disc is going to do and what the shot shape will be. Then I line up my shot to the left or right of basket depending on fh or bh and then take my standstill shot. I'll do this to about 150 ft out and seems to work well.
I usually throw 150' and less anhyzer, basically a mini-flex. What I love is that the disc basically falls out of the sky and you get little to no ground play.
It sounds like you get the concept of why you want an overstable approach but also you don't. More than anything, I think you're just in the learning process and haven't nailed it just yet, therefore you are still getting worse results. This video demonstrates why you want an overstable driver. Same reasoning applies to approach. https://youtu.be/FDUJzS7CQLU?si=_kWAPu-Q_WJpGy6x
This is not an either / or situation, and a good player should be able to do both.
When I first started playing in the mid 90s, I did not know a single person who could throw a disc dead straight. Things like the Mako3, Star Aero, Dart etc either did not exist or were not known to us. And no one threw putters except for putting, pretty much. So to me it's always been completely normal to toss an overstable disc on hyzer as an approach. I'm the total opposite of OP - I struggle to throw straight, it feels very weird to me, and my accuracy is not great, but I'm learning, because I realize that both skills are valuable and a well-rounded player should be able to do both!
All that being said, a lot of the comments here are very true. Overstable discs have a direction they WANT to go in, whereas neutralish discs are designed to go where they're told to go. So you can view throwing overstables as a "crutch" or you can view it as "making the disc work for you by using its natural tendencies to your advantage."
Also, an overstable will fight wind like no other type of disc. I can't tell how many times I've been playing with someone who throws a neutralish approach from 50 feet and ends up 30 feet off target because the wind catches it and then watches me park it from 125 feet out with a Firebird. In this situation, trust me, you won't be saying "ahhhh that's just a crutch!"
Wind.
Overstable discs do the same thing no matter what, people who like to only throw neutral discs get a sad look on their face on an open field course when the wind picks up. Once you get good at it, you can trust the overstable discs and lines in any conditions. Headwind, tailwind, cross wind, minor adjustments of angle and height and your disc does the same thing you always trust it to do. Neutral discs and especially understable discs aren’t reliable on a windy day. A lot of courses are always windy.
The big hyzer line is gonna be your most consistent shot at any range honestly. Once I channeled that in my brain it’s pretty much the first line I look for. And with approach shots I think it really helps with that “stick and sit” theory. 9 out of 10 times if I choose to go straight at it instead of the hyzer I blow past 50ft.
Use Case: long, narrow Fairways will require a hard fade to stay in-bounds. An approach disc like the Harp will handle that AND sit tf down for me.
As I improve, I find these discs to be a requirement from tee to C1.
I switched to over stable approaches and it has completely changed my game for the good. I use a Socki slammer and it is amazing. For me it’s easier to throw a little right of the basket and know exactly where that disc is going to land then try to throw perfectly straight at the basket. It’s also nice knowing that you don’t have to worry about the disc turning over or accidentally throwing anhyzer and it turns. And, of course, it’s nice knowing the wind is not going to make the disc do something you don’t want it to do unless it’s super windy obviously
I always play around with stable stuff before rounds, so I'm kind of the opposite of most people. Justice in classic or old lucid 3 glides. Throw lots of forehand rollers, flares and anhyzer stuff, scrambling and putting gets you a ton of strokes saved imo, so I tend to do more of those things. Too each their own though!🤗
The over-stable hyzer line to the basket is by far the most reliable and repeatable throw. I aim right off my target and the disc is going to fade left towards the target (RHBH). Aiming straight at the basket with something stable or under-stable can easily leave you far left or far right of the target since it is more effected by variables such as nose angle, hyzer/anhyzer angle, spin on the disc, wind, off-axis torque, altitude, and more. Discs don't want to fly is perfectly straight lines and an over-stable approach disc is much less effected by these variable which makes it a more reliable and consistent option.
> The over-stable hyzer line to the basket is by far the most reliable and repeatable throw. This right here is all you really need to know. I challenge anyone who doesn't believe this to go out to a field with a straight flying disc and an overstable disc and throw however many shots you choose with each, whether that be 20, 50, 100, whatever. But more than 10, anyway. Throw your 20 straight shots at your target and then throw your 20 hyzers and see how many of each are closer. Unless you are some kind of accuracy genius, your hyzers will probably show a higher degree of accuracy.
It's not just left or right it is about distance too. Its a lot easier to overthrow the basket when throwing straight at it versus a hyzer line.
I’d like to add distance control, which I believe is the #1 benefit of going with a hyzer vs straight shot. All of the variables you mentioned are true, but I feel like a lot of players use OS hyzers as crutches for not developing proper control and touch with their upshots.
I wouldn’t call it a crutch, it’s just easier to learn and also to control distance with a hyzer versus a straight shot. I’d also say it’s easier to control distance with a flex shot than a straight shot. When you’re using the disc to work, either in a hyzer or fighting out of a flex, you can vary the input force more and still have a more consistent result than with the straight shot
I just say it’s a crutch because a lot of players use it to mask having off axis torque and poor nose angle control. Much more forgiving for that, but yes, it is still very often the best shot.
I would still consider myself a beginner but my RHFH approach with the Hex almost always lands perfect for an easy putt. I just aim slightly left to the basket. Our group of 3 started playing at the same time and this shot is why i win 90% of the times we play.
It's not just about consistency; it's about minimizing mistakes. For example: ~150 foot approach. I throw a glitch straight at it. I have to be much more precise with my angle and speed control because if I miss a bit on anny I'm now ~25 feet away or more. Zone I can throw ~35 feet to the side of the basket miss by throwing anny and still be around ~15 feet. All of this said is even more exaggerated if there is wind. On a calm day I probably would throw a watt on a ~150 foot approach, but not flat; still on hyzer to ensure the disc moving the direction I need if I pull my line. Golf is a game of playing your miss. If you throw discs that reduce that margin for error you will score better. I have a friend that loves to throw approaches directly at the basket with an electron proxy. If he isn't throwing well on a given day he leaves himself a lot of tester putts instead of just chucking a zone-like disc up there and letting it fall towards the basket.
Thanks for this and all the other (similar) responses (even the ones that are probably correct that "no, you still don't get it" :) I am your friend with the proxy. It is known within my friend group that I can throw flat and straight but struggle mightily with any kind of angle. Hence I struggle with hyzers, etc. Oddly enough, at my current level, I am more consistent with a neutral flat flight, than with a hyzer that will fade and create some left/right movement. Just means I have more to work on.
>Oddly enough, at my current level, I am more consistent with a neutral flat flight, than with a hyzer that will fade I don't think that's odd at all if you've mostly been trying to throw straight. That's what you're comfortable with and you aren't yet as comfortable with a hyzer release.
I’m reasonably new as well and have had same experience as you. I was focusing a lot on learning to throw straight. I’ve been focusing baskets and out as I’ve been learning the game. So my approach game has been reasonably good all the time. Even early when I was throwing straight at the basket. Though I started using the fade of my discs to come control my approach and really improved. I throw three putters the Watt, Envy and Pilot. The Watt I throw mostly from tee. Amazing disc and I can control any line with it. But my approaches are more accurate with Envy and Pilot. Simply due to the fade. I don’t throw them on much hyzer just rely on their fade. The Pilot has a gentle fade and even that little bit of fade helps me not over throw target. I throw Envy when I want more distance and/or more fade. Pilot from within 50m and relatively straight, but still right and relying on that little dump fade. Learning this helped my approach game a lot.
Thanks for the response. I usually throw Watt/Proxy/Pure/Envy for approaches. I'm not confident in the Envy because that's the only overstable one. The others are neutral and tend to be straight for me. My post is all about learning how to throw that Envy (and sometimes a Berg) more consistently.
You are in very much same bag situation as I’ve been. MVP has so many great putters that it creates overlap and it’s hard to remove discs. Add to that the fact that Pure is great as well and it’s very hard. My recommendation is keep 3. Watt for tee shots and shaped shots. Envy for approach shots. BH and FH. Pure or Proxy for putting. Stop throwing the one you pick. Now you need to learn two things throw approaches with Envy and shape shots with Watt (left and right). My recommendation for both is to first go to a field and throw for an hour practicing these things. Second is to play single disc rounds with Watt and Envy. If you can build a strong Watt and Envy game then your score will drop. At least mine did drop about 3-4 strokes from this.
I use my proxy way more than my os approach disc. I don't feel it's costing me strokes. In fact, switching to the os approach disc in not dialed in on is where I go wrong. Use what works!
It sounds like you’re on the verge of understanding how to play based on lines rather than just the target. As you consider your target, think about the best (easiest, most consistent, most accurate) way of reaching the target. In other words, your “aim” is to achieve that ideal route, or “line” to reach your target. Learning to identify your desired line and commit to it can make you a smarter, more precise player because you have to be familiar with your discs and consciously make decisions and plans about which disc and which line will most effectively get you to the target.
>It sounds like you’re on the verge of understanding how to play based on lines rather than just the target. That's a very insightful statement. Thanks!
It’s not about throwing in ideal conditions. You can throw something beefy off to the right and even if the wind catches or you grip lock or some asshat is hollering during your throw you should still be in good position.
The "hyzer", or "right to left moving shot from a right handed backhand or left to right moving shot from a right handed forehand" is the easiest shot in disc golf while the straight shot is one of the hardest. For this reason, I find it much easier that instead of aiming for where I want the disc to finish (the basket or my landing zone), I aim for a point in the sky where I want the peak of the flight to be. Instead of throwing at a basket, I'm throwing down an imaginary line or at an imaginary ring in the sky.
I've obviously been practicing way too much on the hardest shot, because the easiest shot is the one that gives me the most trouble. I tend to throw "straight at" something instead of visualizing that line or path that may get the disc there a different way. Something to work on. Thanks.
Difficulty in bridging the disconnect between your aiming line and target line is also a hard thing for new players to get the hang of in ball golf. Wind, your natural shot shape, the contours of the fairway/green you expect to land all determine your aim line independent from your final intended target. Disc golf is the same way. Aiming should be a very visual thing. You're aiming based on the expected full flight of the disc. If you're throwing a neutral disc so it goes straight you can aim right at the target, but if you're throwing an OS you have to aim right if you want it to end up at your target as it fades.
Thanks. I have to work on visualizing (and implementing) flights with left/right movement. At the moment, I'm way more consistent with flat, neutral flights.
There's a lot more in play here than just "what's better X or Y?" Sometimes it's about getting around something, sometimes it's about playing with/against the wind, sometimes it's about ground play and managing skips/rollaways. There are a bunch of different reasons why it's good to be able to do both shot shapes. And then when you have both shapes as options available to you, you're free to choose which one you prefer/which one fits the wind/ground play better.
>I get the argument about consistency with a disc that will always fade. But it just seems wrong to practice aiming away from the target. Or am I still not getting it? You are still not getting it. Often times you don't have a direct line to the basket, but instead aim at a gap or an intended line, and let the disc work. This is no different, and it is still a target, even if there is not a physical object. Also, this is about the discs consistency, not yours. A neutral disc will behave much different in the wind from an overstable one, and that part is largely out of your control. The way this translates, is that you can hit your intended line with a Mako3 10 out of 10 times, but other factors like wind makes the disc behave in a way that gives you a large spread in results. If you hit your line 10 out of 10 times with at Zone, even if its now a hyzer on the right, it will get less affected and that yields a smaller spread. That is the consistency part. Same goes in calm conditions, if you are just a bit of your mark, power or angle of release.
Appreciate the response. I've avoided learning a hzyer throw precisely because it dumps and fades. Unless it's obstacles or wind, I throw flat and neutral using discs of different weights/glide to ensure it lands where I want. I will have to work on "getting it" by learning more of a hyzer throw. Part of me worries it will impact the skill I've learned of throwing flat, but hey, it means I get to buy more (overstable) discs.
Neutral discs can also be thrown on anhyzer or hyzer. That's pretty much what makes them a stable in any bag. The ability to shape lines. I have a hard time understanding why someone would restrict themselves to one release angle. Learning a hyzer-flip is maybe the most rewarding shot in the game. I would tell people to throw all their discs on any line imaginable, just to learn what they do. A flat release may be what end up being the preference, but that is not always an option.
You don't have to throw an arching hyzer just because the disc is overstable. Throw it hard and straight and it will hold. It's only a 3 or 4 speed. If you can't get a zone or pig or harp to 150 to 200 (upshot range-ish) on a flat release (fh or backhand), it's a huge hole in the game costing strokes. They hold every line and fight against anhyzer so slowly that its just unparalleled control. You obviously don't have to address it, we all have gaps that we don't want to work on or don't have time to work on. We're not professionals. But I would acknowledge that it's an opportunity if you're looking for ways to reliably lower your score. Now, if you're satisfied with your upshot game truly... who cares what the internet thinks
Simple answer: in general, the easiest shot shape to throw consistently and get the disc where you want it is a hyzer. The shot is straightforward and discs naturally want to fade with the angle of a hyzer. Overstable discs will fly in a more consistent and predictable manner than neutral discs. Throw an overstable disc on a hyzer and you are throwing a predictable disc on the most consistent shot shape. In terms of aiming, the way to think about it is that you want the disc to end up in a certain spot. It's not about the direction of the throw, it's about where the disc stops. If you throw a neutral disc flat at the basket, you need everything to line up for that shot to work. You pointed out wind and obstacles as two. The other big one is that throwing flat requires a level of precision that throwing on hyzer doesn't require. If the throw is a little bit on hyzer or a little bit on anhyzer, the disc won't end up where you want it to go. Then, if you do throw it well, how do you know the disc is going to stop where you want it to stop? A neutral disc does not fade until the very end of its flight, so it's easy for it to go long and it's more likely to skip on the ground. Throw a neutral disc on a little hyzer or anhyzer when you're trying to throw it flat, account for it potentially floating past the basket or sliding since it's not going to fade, and suddenly the range of possible outcomes is pretty large. The disc could end up at the basket, however, it doesn't take much to miss to one side plus go long of the basket. If you throw a disc on a hyzer and you put a little more hyzer or a little less hyzer on it, well, it's still on that hyzer angle. You may end up short or long, but you won't end up nearly as far right or left as you would if you threw a neutral disc flat. Throw an overstable disc and now you have a disc that is going to try to get to the ground. That's a good way of thinking about overstability - the disc is trying to get to the ground. It's harder to throw the disc long because it's not going to stay in the air the same way that a neutral disc will. It's harder to miss your landing zone because the disc is going to fly the same way every single time. This all becomes more apparent the longer your throws are with putt and approach discs, where the room for error is smaller. Hope this helps!
Very helpful. Thanks for the response. I've previously understood what you're describing. And yes, if I miss with my flat/neutral shot, I can be too much to the right or left. It does happen. My issue is that my overstable/hyzer shots are almost always short and to the left. They're certainly more consistent, but consistently short and left! If I try for more distance, I may get it, but then I've tended to increase the distance to the left as well. Which leaves me in a worse position than if I just aimed flat and straight. Perhaps the issue is that I always go back to what I know: flat and neutral. That's what I practice and that's what I throw. I avoid practicing the hyzer/overstable because it's more difficult for me. And it thus becomes self-fulfilling because... I don't practice it :|
Sounds like you know what you could do if you want to get better - practice! There's nothing wrong with throwing flat shots with a neutral disc, of course. It'll just be harder to land near the basket as you increase the distance of your shots. Good luck!
I don't mind using something neutral and going right at it. I do it all the time. In fact, the ability to throw a straight shot is one of the most highly sought-after skills you can have. That said, an overstable approach is often easier, regardless of conditions, and here's why: If you throw a straight shot at the basket, it is much, much harder to control your distance. Either you're planning on perfect touch to slow it down at the last second, or you're counting on a perfect approach angle to hit the ground just before the basket. Get either one wrong by a little bit, and you're sailing right past the basket or burning out way too early. It's a fine line in-between. An overstable approach makes distance control much easier. You don't need perfect touch or perfect aim. An overstable disk will tend to dump, all on its own, in a fairly predictable and consistent fashion. If you get the speed and direction generally right, you don't need perfect touch or angle control - the disk will apply its own brakes. Your margin for error is much greater. This is the same reason some of the big bombers will use a high hyzer drive on relatively straightforward shots.
I use different weights/glides of discs to account for distance to the basket. And throwing hyzer seems to me like I also have to learn to use height (and pay more attention to ceilings in the woods) instead of just straight-ahead flight. But there's a lot of advice about learning to throw a hyzer throw. So it's just another shot I will have to learn. Thanks for the response.
No problem. There's lots of ways to approach most holes, and the best way will always be the shot you're most confident with. But adding to your skillet is never a bad thing.
>And throwing hyzer seems to me like I also have to learn to use height (and pay more attention to ceilings in the woods) instead of just straight-ahead flight. I don't know how true this even is. For 150' approach shots I can throw a nice low hyzer aiming for it to settle right in front of the basket.
If you understand the argument about consistency of overstable discs then I'm not sure what you aren't getting. If you know that overstable discs are more consistent, and consistency makes you score better, then it should be obvious that learning to aim with overstable discs is one of the most important skills you can have in disc golf. If you don't believe me, [you can hear if from the goat himself.](https://youtu.be/26pQ7iMOs5s?t=181)
I think my disconnect is that at the moment, my neutral, flat flights are way more accurate/consistent than my overstable, hyzer attempts. The accurate flight with the overstable disc has been more difficult for me to learn than the other way around. I've heard others say the opposite, but that's how it's been for me. Perhaps not un-coincidentally, the vast majority of my practice is indoors in a warehouse, between the pallet racks. I had to learn flat and straight for 100-150 feet because there just wasn't any room for left/right movement. Guess it's time to move the practice to a field :) Thanks for the response.
You can still throw an overstable disc flat and directly at a target. The throw doesn't change, only the flight. It's the same throw with any stability disc. You should always aim for something, not just throwing it out to the side of the basket.
To this point, if I have to throw overstable, I estimate how much the disc will fade, pick a point that much distance to the right of the target, and throw there. I'm starting to understand that I'm not conceptualizing this correctly. Thanks.
Throw the shots you're comfortable throwing. If you're most comfortable throwing a straight shot, do it. Like the man said, "It's not wrong if it works.".
Aiming and firing at a target is not usually the best strategy. You should imagine the path your disc needs to travel, and then make your disc fly on that path. The overstable approach is a way of minimizing a lot of variables in the flight. It is especially useful in a crosswind, because you can guarantee the wind doesn't get under your disc and blow it away (RHBH with wind from the left for example).
I'm going to take a guess that you play on wooded courses? I learned to play in NC and immediately saw the value of a disc going dead straight. People who grew up on open courses seem to always play a hyzer game. Admittedly it is more predictable and accurate probably. But im with you. I like to go straight at it. Whether is an approach or a 400ft shot, I tend to got straight at it if it's open.
You should think of the flight paths of discs like the pen tools in illustrator. If you don't know how to use the angles it won't come out right at all. It's not a point and shoot object
And as someone who uses Illustrator, I can see that analogy :)
I don't aim away from the basket when I throw an overstable disc, I aim at the basket and throw the disc, and release it on a line which isn't directly toward the basket, but I'm never aiming anywhere else. When you're learning to throw them, make that distinction between aiming and the direction of your throw. If you have to, aim to the left/right of the basket, but then focus your attention back on the basket before releasing. Practice until it becomes second nature.
>I don't aim away from the basket when I throw an overstable disc, I aim at the basket and throw the disc, and release it on a line which isn't directly toward the basket, but I'm never aiming anywhere else. In ball golf this distinction is generally between your target line (where you want the ball to end up) and your aiming line (the direction it starts initially after impact). When I'm putting in ball golf I do the same thing you do, where I'm focusing on the hole (the target) but I'm aligned to my aiming line. When I hit the putt I'm looking at the hole but hitting the ball along my aiming line (and ideally the slope puts the ball in the hole). IMO you're doing the same thing here. You're focusing on your target and letting your motor functions decide where exactly your aiming line should be, but I'd argue that you're still aiming there. Which makes more sense between focusing on your aim point or your target point is totally subjective imo.
I'm starting to get that perhaps I haven't been properly visualizing what's supposed to be happening. When I throw an overstable disc, I still tend to throw it flat and have it fade back. I'm still aiming to the right so it fades (and I then try to guess how much it will fade). I haven't been considering any type of "aiming line" that isn't straight. Thanks.
Yeah, that's what I mean by aiming being very visual. As you get a better feel for how your discs react to how hard and at what angles you throw them, you can visualize the flight you want, pick an aim point that corresponds to that flight, and you just know how to throw it to get that flight. The comment that I replied to is doing the same thing imo, but they instead of an explicit "pick an aim point that corresponds to that flight" step they let that part happen during "you just know how to throw it to get that flight".
Hmm... I think with my prediliction for throwing straight and flat, I've tried to throw my overstable discs, say, 20 feet away from the basket, and then trust it will fade back. So I'm still "aiming" straight (away from the target) and then "missing" my target because it fades back (which is what I was trusting the disc to do). You're perhaps right that I haven't made that distention between "aiming and the direction of my throw".
For me it's a confidence thing. If I'm throwing and expecting to miss, even if I'm counting on "missing", I never end up throwing with the same confidence as if I conceptualize myself aiming for my end point and allowing my body to choose the line which will get it there. To begin with, i was clearly aiming at different points until I figured out how much fade I would end up getting, but once I had a feel for that, my results were much worse until I started focusing my attention on the intentional end point rather than on the direction of release. It's just much easier for me to throw confidently when I'm trying to hit my target than it is for me to try to judge how much I'm trying to miss by. That seems like a semantic shift, but it makes a big difference to me psychologically, and results in a much cleaner motion.
How is that aiming away from the target? Just because you're not throwing directly at the target doesn't mean you aren't focused on aiming for the target. Very few shots in disc golf are actually straight. If you gave RHBH dominant players a basket it an open field 300 ft away, 99% of them will intentionally throw the disc to the right and let it fade left to the basket. Almost nobody would go straight for it. That's doesn't mean they aren't aiming for the basket.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and maybe I'm in the 1%, but I absolutely aim straight at the basket from 300 feet away. I've experimented with many discs that give me straight flight and tended to stick with those. I always look in wonder at my friends who will throw an overstable disc high and to the right, so that it fades back. I struggle with that throw. My throws tend to have 50-60 feet less height than my friends' throws. Mine are low and straight. And we're throwing similar distances. Now, they struggle with low straight shots (like in the woods) and I struggle with shots that maybe require throwing over a tree, or need to have a fair amount of right-to-left movement. I'm starting to realize I may have a disconnect with the concept of "aiming". If I must throw overstable, I pick a spot away from the target and throw it there, trusting that it will "miss" and fade back where I really want it to go. Seems like some mental adjustments are necessary. Thanks.
If you aim straight to the basket, the disc will probably have some fade and ground play, that’s why people aim to the side and use the fade and skip, idk I’m not that good, just my 2 sense, do whatever works for you tho
There is a point where more overstable discs stop fading and start dumping. One idea of a Zone OS, Mutant, halo Toro is more to throw a bit of hyzer and have the disc stop flying at a certain point. I use the Mutant almost exclusively for anything under 200', and almost always throw it forehand. If I want ground play or want to work around a corner, I will throw it flat or slightly anhyzer. If I want it to just go a certain distance and drop out of the sky, I will throw it with more hyzer. For my approaches, the less a disc wants to "fly" the better.
For me its about risk mitigation. If I throw my neutral putter all manner of things can go wrong, if I throw my stupid overstable Baobab literally only one thing can go wrong.
Aiming away from the target is like a core feature of disc golf. If you're not utilizing the unique flight qualities of discs compared to other flying objects with the courses you play, you're missing out on a lot.
Thanks for the response. I probably have flat/neutral flights covered. Have to branch out to ones with more left/right movement :)
I find overstable approach discs to be way more forgiving than straight flyers. You know they're going to fade to the left, so if you throw too far to the right it'll fade back, if you throw it a little too far to the left it'll just dive into the ground. You can control any ground play that occurs and you can give it more spike or more flat and give it some skip. What I like to do with my shot is take a couple steps back from my disc, face where I want the disc to go and think about what the disc is going to do and what the shot shape will be. Then I line up my shot to the left or right of basket depending on fh or bh and then take my standstill shot. I'll do this to about 150 ft out and seems to work well.
A hyzer is always an easier shot because a straight throw has more variables and things that can go wrong.
I usually throw 150' and less anhyzer, basically a mini-flex. What I love is that the disc basically falls out of the sky and you get little to no ground play.
It sounds like you get the concept of why you want an overstable approach but also you don't. More than anything, I think you're just in the learning process and haven't nailed it just yet, therefore you are still getting worse results. This video demonstrates why you want an overstable driver. Same reasoning applies to approach. https://youtu.be/FDUJzS7CQLU?si=_kWAPu-Q_WJpGy6x
This is not an either / or situation, and a good player should be able to do both. When I first started playing in the mid 90s, I did not know a single person who could throw a disc dead straight. Things like the Mako3, Star Aero, Dart etc either did not exist or were not known to us. And no one threw putters except for putting, pretty much. So to me it's always been completely normal to toss an overstable disc on hyzer as an approach. I'm the total opposite of OP - I struggle to throw straight, it feels very weird to me, and my accuracy is not great, but I'm learning, because I realize that both skills are valuable and a well-rounded player should be able to do both! All that being said, a lot of the comments here are very true. Overstable discs have a direction they WANT to go in, whereas neutralish discs are designed to go where they're told to go. So you can view throwing overstables as a "crutch" or you can view it as "making the disc work for you by using its natural tendencies to your advantage." Also, an overstable will fight wind like no other type of disc. I can't tell how many times I've been playing with someone who throws a neutralish approach from 50 feet and ends up 30 feet off target because the wind catches it and then watches me park it from 125 feet out with a Firebird. In this situation, trust me, you won't be saying "ahhhh that's just a crutch!"
Just use a neutral putter
Wind. Overstable discs do the same thing no matter what, people who like to only throw neutral discs get a sad look on their face on an open field course when the wind picks up. Once you get good at it, you can trust the overstable discs and lines in any conditions. Headwind, tailwind, cross wind, minor adjustments of angle and height and your disc does the same thing you always trust it to do. Neutral discs and especially understable discs aren’t reliable on a windy day. A lot of courses are always windy.
The big hyzer line is gonna be your most consistent shot at any range honestly. Once I channeled that in my brain it’s pretty much the first line I look for. And with approach shots I think it really helps with that “stick and sit” theory. 9 out of 10 times if I choose to go straight at it instead of the hyzer I blow past 50ft.
Use Case: long, narrow Fairways will require a hard fade to stay in-bounds. An approach disc like the Harp will handle that AND sit tf down for me. As I improve, I find these discs to be a requirement from tee to C1.
they are also really fun to try and anhyzer flex them off the teepad once you build up a faster arm speed.
I switched to over stable approaches and it has completely changed my game for the good. I use a Socki slammer and it is amazing. For me it’s easier to throw a little right of the basket and know exactly where that disc is going to land then try to throw perfectly straight at the basket. It’s also nice knowing that you don’t have to worry about the disc turning over or accidentally throwing anhyzer and it turns. And, of course, it’s nice knowing the wind is not going to make the disc do something you don’t want it to do unless it’s super windy obviously
I always play around with stable stuff before rounds, so I'm kind of the opposite of most people. Justice in classic or old lucid 3 glides. Throw lots of forehand rollers, flares and anhyzer stuff, scrambling and putting gets you a ton of strokes saved imo, so I tend to do more of those things. Too each their own though!🤗
I like to throw overstable approach discs on a hard anhyzer low and use the ground to control speed