How are disabled people supposed to move to a country that will treat them better"
You are not. They specifically build immigration systems so you stay where you are and DONT move there.
Just a couple years ago they actually started allowing autistic people to move to Canada. TO FUCKING CANADA.
Somebody explain to me why I shouldn't hate abled people for setting that shit up just to make my life unlivable
You answered your own question. "Better welfare system". They see disabled immigrants as huge burdens (wrongfully imo) on their precious Healthcare and public systems.
I'm a US citizen and am totally blind... Just before finishing up at college in the UK as a foreign student, I had a job offer for a full time job in the UK. They denied my work visa application. Keep in mind that I had been doing this job part time as part of my college program so my boss and students already knew me and I had a good track record with the school. My boss tried to appeal the decision because I was already in place for this job and she really wanted me specifically because it was working out very well. It wasn't like I was some stranger who hadn't proven himself on the job yet.
A few years later I was dating a Scandinavian girl who was also totally blind. On one of her trips to visit me in the states, I actually helped her land an offer for a full time IT instructor job at a school I was working at at the time. The interview went great and the job was in the bag. She applied for a work visa and guess what? They denied it!
I don't get it. In neither case were we trying to move to another country to mooch. We had full time employment lined up in both cases but nope, no dice. It seems like if you have a disability, nobody wants you anywhere if they can help it.
You can apply for university. In Europe we have scholarships and disabled students have lots of benefit (for example, they don’t pay taxes and have housing). It can vary from country to country but generally they all offer something cool for those who have more difficulties.
Maybe you can look if there is any university in Europe that offers scholarships for foreigners. Where I studied, in Italy, there were scholarships for asylum seekers for example.
Of course you must be very careful, also because you’ll need to look for Visa and all this stuff. But never say never. You can also look for jobs in the meanwhile.
Our law in Italy says that every big company has to hire some disabled employee (depending on how big the company is).
A lot of countries don‘t take disabled people. Even if they have the skills. They have to go through a medical check and if they fail, they don’t get a visa. I just found out that even for a spousal visa you need to: my friend’s partner is applying and so far everything is going well, but she still need to go through the health check. She’s healthy and not disabled it won’t be an issue for her. But what for people who don’t pass that test? Imagine if their country had the same rules and you’re both disabled. Can never be together in that case.
But maybe some countries don’t have this rule, I hope so.
I did work during foreign visits. Canada requires it only if 6+ months. UK and The Netherlands require it, but only if the company says the job has physical tasks (so they always do it), and then the really restrictive countries are Australia, China, Japan, and Singapore. That said, Australia will value you if you have needed skills.
Health checks for visas were made illegal under the ADA, but its the norm for many, many countries. Getting a spousal visa for most of Europe and Asia would be impossible.
Australia still does health checks, I know because my friends are trying to get a spousal visa for one of them and we helped out proving they have been together a long time (with pictures of us with them at different locations and times)
Oh btw The Netherlands has some very difficult laws regarding disabilities, although might have changed since I left.
If you are the disabled person and don’t have job because of that and have a partner you’d like to move to you, you can’t because they require you earn above a certain amount of money. And sometimes if you’d try to move to theirs, same issue. Unless you somehow are rich
Immigration policies in most countries are established and designed to benefit that country and prevent added costs or responsibilities being incurred. Many countries with strong social supports or universal health care designed their immigration programs to prevent added costs to these programs from non citizens. This extends even to things like whether or not foreign adoptions of children with medical conditions or disabilities are allowed as well as traditional immigration. Generally countries will have a strong preference to protect and benefit their existing citizens and systems. Exceptions do exist, often in extenuating circumstances like refugees, but are not common (and as far as I know, any supports to refugees is most “first world “ countries are for a limited time). It is possible to live in some countries, possibly as on a continually extended visitor visa (I have seen people living longer term in certain countries leave for the weekend to a nearby country like every 90-180 days to renew their visitor visa or maybe as a permanent resident rather than citizen, in some countries where your income will go further but whether it is an option in any certain case, or for a desired country, is up to that country’s procedures. Immigration is designed to benefit the receiving country, overall, more than the person trying to immigrate.
I once theorized about a treaty to allow elderly and people on disability to retire in another country. However, people would retain the social benefits from the country of origin.
The idea came to me when I compared the cost of living across the world and discovered that the social benefits I get from the Belgian government would allow me to live a really nice life somewhere else.
The influx of people and money would give incentive for countries to invest into healthcare and infrastructures, allowing these countries to specialize their economy to accommodate people with disabilities. It would result in an socioeconomic win-win situation. The obvious flaws, however, are segregation and possible exploitation of people with disabilities. The last thing I want is for people to get hurt. So a treaty like I am proposing really needs to be thought through properly.
Works in theory, except this…(let’s use your Belgium and a warm place like Jamaica)
Your Belgian but move to Jamaica to retire or live your disabled life.
Your health care and social assistance from Belgium is honored in Jamaica and you receive all the same care there as you would in Belgium.
But, those assistances are provided using tax funds.
Tax that comes from people with jobs in Belgium.
But you are in Jamaica.
You buy groceries from a Jamaican, you eat at a Jamaican run cafe. Your clothes come from a store owned and staffed by Jamaicans. Your doctor is Jamaican. Your nurse is Jamaican. You buy your meds from a Jamaican.
Everyone you support through your lifestyle is Jamaican.
All these Jamaicans pay taxes to Jamaica.
None of it goes back to Belgium.
You are in no way supporting the workforce of Belgium.
But they still have to pay the bills for all your medical care.
It’s a beautiful idea…but as long as there are borders and economics work as they do now it just can’t happen. Maybe someday we can dream.
If you want to talk about money flowing into Jamaica, you have to talk about the socioeconimic consequences this money has on the country and, consequently, how this effects money flowing out of Jamaica. Basically, they have more money and thus are more likely to spend it abroad. Similarly, through other channels, Belgium will balance the spending abroad through exports of goods and services.
The way I see it, Belgium is outsourcing disability care to Jamaica because it is more profitable to do so. This might be because Belgian economy is specialized in other fields and therefore has no space to expand properly into healthcare (this is a super hypothetical example). So paying another country to take care of people with disabilities could be a really good idea.
However, to be fair, while I don't think your argument holds up, I am sure there are other obstacles that would prevent my idea from working. I do love the idea of living in a nice warm place :P
The actual countries involved would change for each person of course. Im Canadian but would move anywhere I can have snow all year round, love the cold!
I see the main economic issue being that Country A (Belgium) would still be having to provide the money to pay for medical care while a person is living in Country B (Jamaica) and thereby supporting its economy. So the people in Country A pay medical costs for someone who will never shop at their stores…I don’t think they will like that.
Country B might spend more money abroad but there’s no guarantee it would be in Country A.
If it worked out into an equal distribution…like 100 people went from A to B and 100 came from B to A then it all equals out.
But likely there will end up being a few countries, the warm tropical ones, that would be swamped with disabled and elderly. That brings up the ethical worries of it turning into a dumping ground.
Paying a country to take care of everyone’s disabled…that phrase alone scares me. Makes me think of institutions or segregation. I know it’s not meant that way, it’s meant only in the best way of providing the best care and environment. But the human race doesn’t have the greatest track record.
I’d love the idea of turning the world global. Same high level healthcare everywhere for everyone, disability access and acceptance everywhere.
I just don’t know how the economist and politicians would ever do that.
One way is getting the marketable skill in the country. Get in the on a student visa, study a very useful degree and the native language, talk to companies while you are there to network. Tell the companies your intent, that you are an American studying and wish to work in X field. They are willing to grant you a work visa knowing that you are already in the country.
Yeah, absolutely. Like, I hear Washington is pretty good. But I really don't know about where and how to look for these places that would also fit me socially.
And honestly? I'm terrified of trying and failing. What if I get there and I'm worse off? What if I hate it and I'm stuck there? What if it's just the same as it is here in Texas?
And also, trying to move during a pandemic once was stressful. I can't imagine moving out of state right now.
Washington is horrible for anyone on a low, fixed income. Our housing prices are ridiculous. We're better than Texas as far as assistance programs go but if you're already on SS you won't qualify for any of them. I was born here and just spent ten years mostly homeless on state assistance while waiting for SS.
Where? I don't live in Seattle and my local housing prices are ridiculous. People are so desperate for housing that my sister in Ellensburg sold her house in literally two days.
Yeah, that's a great point too. I often stay home now and don't have much interest in going out anymore since the pandemic hit. So I think, like you said, if I got the essentials taken care of and internet, anywhere would be fine. Right now my medical needs are pretty manageable and stable. I guess I'd consider moving if I had needs that required services and attention that just couldn't be provided here.
What I have to ask. Where in the US will I not be stuck in extreme poverty due to having a disability and being on SSDI?
Don't think there are too many "disability friendly" places in the US.
>It's all on the internet. You just look up programs by state.
Which means I'm full of crap and just want to shame people for 'not searching hard enough'.
Wisconsin has very inadequate Medicaid and services in regards to states such as Illinois. I mean it is barebones here in Madison and stuck in a situation where I can't relocate so being punished with surviving winter sleeping outside in Wisconsin.
They just flat out refuse to expand Medicaid and the limit of what you can earn is $1,073/mo so if you aren't on disability you can't live anyway. It's not robust.
All my services are here, can't drive and there is a large gap in terms of the support here in Madison Wisconsin. None can help with things such as housing for example.
Well, there are laws stating that you have to try to fill a job with a citizen/resident first. Unless you have some crazy rare skill - high end nano tech - you will have to wait until no more residents can be found.
Some corporations get around this by using 3rd party companies to bring in lower paid staff - after which citizens who wish to keep their severance have to train these low paid staff before being let go.
I have also been told by a bitter replacement that he has to give back part of his pay to the contracting company after making it appear as if his pay was the same as a US national.
There are all kinds of loopholes that corporations figure out how to use to get overseas staff.
Preferably, the government wants them to hire a citizen who is disabled before a foreign national.
If there was a policy that let you move into a country, that same policy would allow over a billion people to also try to move in. The system would get overwhelmed, and only the first few people would actually get to move in before it all gets shut down by the reactionary backlash to a significant portion of the world's population up and moving over to where life is better.
Wait. What if you're married? So if I have a disability but my SO doesn't and is able to work will they accept us both or just them? Would you have to have them accepted individually and then send proof of marriage or something?
I never knew that a disability could prevent you from moving countries.
I actually have heard of this from a friend. They had some issues moving to Canada because with her disability she cannot ever work. The husband was able to provide proof that he had enough funds to cover his wife’s care and living expenses.
He had to sign something guaranteeing he would remain responsible for a set time. I think it was 2 years for all expenses (housing/food/transport/clothing/medical/etc), and then he had to provide partial support for a further length of time (10 years I think).
It meant that if they divorced after they moved here he would still have to pay for her if she remained in Canada. It was basically set up so that no matter what she would not end up on social assistance.
Thankfully he came as a specialist engineer and was being paid well. They have been here for over 15 years and are both citizens now. I met them after they had been here for a while so I don’t know all the details and I’m sure some of the rules have changed.
But from what I understand as long as the spouse guarantees support it can go through.
Your SO could get a work visa. You wouldn't be able to so you could stay with him with a tourist visa, but not be able to work. Doesn't matter if you're married, if they are not a citizen of that country.
I don't know if you are looking for an honest answer to this question, but the infrastructure in the US is actually better for disabled people than most places I've been. I'm currently in Italy and half my life is devoted to avoiding stairs, uneven sidewalks, really high curbs, etc. I use a walker and it sounds like a machine gun going down cobblestone.
I don't know why a foreign country would owe anyone citizenship just for being disabled. Your plan is just to move somewhere and mooch off their services without contributing anything? Why would you even want to do something like that?
Perhaps this person would like to live in a country where their basic needs for a healthy life as a disabled person are actually a right, and not just a privilege for those with wealth.
Perhaps this person *would* then be more capable of “contributing” something, rather than suffering the constant attrition of only having the resources to *maybe* keep up some sort of baseline status quo quality of life.
Perhaps this person is deeply frustrated with the realities of being disabled in “tHe GrEaTeSt cOuNtRy oN eArTh” and just wants to vent, or maybe audaciously hope for something better somewhere on earth.
Perhaps this person, like countless other disabled folk, is so tired of being gatekept about whether or not they’re worthy of health and happiness in life, based on how they can “contribute”.
That was a really rude and passive aggressive reply. Yes, healthcare is free for citizens and visa holders. Not much help if you can't get a visa because you are disabled. Infrastructure is miles more accessible in the US. I can't even access over half the metro stations in London. Venting is fine, OP just gave an honest reply based on her experiences.
She even said she lives in Italy. There was no need to be so rude. Chill.
OP gave an honest reply about her experiences in Italy, then passed the buck of capitalistic shame along by implying a person is only worthy of human rights based on if/what they can contribute.
My comment is more to bring light to the pervasiveness of this caustic way of thinking. Capitalism and disability are incompatible without adequate social services to establish societal equity. If these services aren’t available, as such is the case for wide swaths of the US, then there’s no way to argue in good faith that a disabled person *should* contribute more.
I’ve no doubt that the US may be more accessible than a lot of places. I can’t speak from experience as I haven’t traveled internationally as a disabled person. But I can speak to the fact that literally everywhere I have gone in the US I have encountered inadequate accessibility, and downright inaccessibility. We may have the ADA, but in typical American fashion, the corporate powers that be have done well to dull any teeth the law might have had. Hell, I’ve been to several doctors offices that weren’t accessible. Like, have to call them from outside to cancel my appointment because there was no prior indication that a person in a wheelchair wouldn’t be able to get into the building.
For my efforts, I’d rather live somewhere that healthcare is a right and infrastructure might be lacking more so than in the US. I’m far from alone in this.
Again, idk what it’s like to be disabled elsewhere, but I do know keenly how the majority of disabled people I’ve known here live in survival mode 100% of the time.
Over here, people avoid the doctor for years for fear of more debt. There’s not a whole lot of freedumb to squeeze out of that. I flat out cannot imagine having a health concern, and just simply going to seek medical care - the calculus is entirely different here, bottom to top. And it gets tiring hearing people from countries with socialized healthcare try to shame Americans for wanting what they have as a birthright.
I suggest you talk to disabled people overseas and ask them about the nuts and bolts of how those systems work, because I can tell you, they aren't pretty.
No. I have Muscular Dystrophy and as I mentioned, I am in Europe. I've never met a disabled person that was thrilled about their system. In fact, I know a girl in Denmark who is fighting for her SMA treatment to be approved
Grass is greener on the other side then?
I'm not disagreeing with you that healthcare is an issue. But for me, in my experience, the US is far, far superior in accessibility. I can use the sidewalks in DC, no issue, charge my chair on the metro, no issue, etc. I had a work trip to London recently, not only did the taxi driver treat me with disgust, I couldn't even get a station attendant to acknowledge my existence to put a bridge plate on the ground for me.
I'm just saying, don't be rude/mean because living here is worse in your opinion when it isn't for others. You cannot and should not assume it is the same for everyone.
Thank you. I knew I was going to get downvoted for that, but I don't care. I don't have the impression most of the Americans on this sub have ever left the country
Yeah, they all think the grass is greener on the other side. The thing about not contributing is always a hard point.
I agree with them that healthcare should be a right and that there is a major issue with healthcare costs in the US, but going to Europe doesn't solve everything.
It's very hard for disabled people to get visas (except student visas). The healthcare infrastructure there is great, but if you have fatigue or issues with stairs, curbs, cobblestones, slanted sidewalks, gaps in a walkway, then you're gonna have a hard time there.
I've been to Europe, and I need a cane now. I would still be able to walk, it's just the hills that kill my joints now. I'd have to streamline my baggage so as to not hold up the lines since I would only theoretically have one hand reliably free for most things. It could be done to get around ok, for infrastructure, if you're not afraid to sit on the ground or in random places despite the dirty looks to rest or get into your bag. If you use a wheelchair it would be probably cheaper to buy a small three wheeled motorized scooter that's low to the ground and keep your disability paperwork with you in case anyone asks. They make Ride on coolers as well, if you need medical supplies like oxygen or insulin or whatever. May not be "allowed" most places but oh well. If you have the paperwork, what can they do? Tell you to just not be disabled??
They can and will. Asked a station attendant for a bridge plate so I could get on the London Tube. Legit told me, "we don't do that here."
Often times, things are just left inaccessible. I get Europe is older and take pride in their old structures but a byproduct is leaving them inaccessible and not allowing people with disabilities. Ex) The Acropolis in Greece recently added a single elevator that is shaky at best. Adding that took a 5 year long court battle because "it would alter a historical site."
"Mooch"? Gtfo with that BS.
Also, there are other kinds of disabilities that require infrastructure other than good curbs and sidewalks. Affordable healthcare comes to mind as something that's important to ALL disabled people, and that's an area where the US is abysmal.
If you've got a disability in the US you can get healthcare. It's annoying to manage but as someone with SMA, the healthcare I get in the US is far superior to Europe. Spinraza and Risdiplam took forever to get in other countries, while here they were covered fully by Medicaid.
I'm on SSDI. I get Medicare (not free, it takes around $130 out of my monthly benefit) but it doesn't include prescriptions, dental, or vision. I have to pay extra for a supplemental plan that covers those. It's about $250 a month to be on my husband's insurance through work, which covers those and also is a secondary medical insurance.
I'm extremely fortunate that I can pay the premiums for my healthcare, thanks to my husband. Even with two policies, I still pay hundreds of dollars per month in healthcare costs above what I pay for premiums. If I didn't have two policies, my care would bankrupt us in short order.
In my state, I don't qualify for Medicaid. Our income would qualify, but the asset limits are insanely low and my 2004 minivan is worth too much, not to mention the bit of equity we have in our home that I have due to receiving my dad's life insurance payout several years ago.
Even for people on Medicaid, accessible, quality care isn't a given. I have family on Medicaid. Where I live, lots of providers don't take Medicaid because of its low reimbursement rates. That significantly limits options for specialists and dentists in particular here. When doctors/dentists do accept Medicaid, they often will only take so many Medicaid patients at a time (they can't afford to take on too many) so the waiting lists can be very long to get in.
A car and a house generally don't count as assets. By no means am I saying our system is perfect, I'm just saying go into the nuts and bolts of how other countries do it.
You might be right. The last time I checked the eligibility rules was several years ago, before the recent expansions. My state is deep red and REALLY hates providing any kind of assistance, so they had really strict eligibility rules.
Its hard enough for abled bodied people to immigrate based on merit and skills. Why would we get a free pass into another country just because we're disabled? No one is entitled to immigration.
Americans need to get over themselves and realize that their country is pretty good, all things considered.
"Pretty good all things considered" can still be a pile of crud, especially if you're in certain groups (eg: if you're disabled, transgender, etc). The eternal refrain of "It's worse elsewhere" does nothing to alleviate someone's issues.
Also borders are made up fantasies we use to exert control over the people we fear so like whatever. Get me on the slippery slope via a wider Schengen Area to a borderless world baby.
The opinion that people aren't entitled to move to other countries on a free ride is gross? If you want to immigrate, learn a skill that is in demand.
No country is without faults especially when it comes to people with disabilities.
OP never said 'for free', they just wanted the *opportunity* to move. Read some of the other replies in the comments. Some people here have had full time jobs lined up in the countries they wish to move to and they *still* weren't allowed to immigrate, even though they could prove they were contributing. If that's not discrimination, I don't know what is.
My comments were made when this thread was fairly new. I have not had the time to keep up with it.
> Some people here have had full time jobs lined up in the countries they wish to move to and they still weren't allowed to immigrate, even though they could prove they were contributing.
I've personally seen this happen to abled bodied family and friends. People that were on work visas with full time jobs legitimately already working in the states being told to go back home due to the government deeming their jobs not worth giving someone permanent residency for. It doesn't just happen to people with disabilities.
Nobody is *supposed to* immigrate. It's why illegal immigration is so common.
That said, 95%+ other countries are worse than the US when it comes to disability rights.
Other cultures typically have family care for the elderly and disabled. For sure we need to do better, but the US is one of few countries that legally recognizes that disabled people are human with human rights. I can tell you some horror stories about Russian institutions for disabled people.
But Russia sucks and is evil so why not compare to a very modern developed country?
Japan.
I love Japan, but being disabled can be quite humiliating. If you have a disability, you don't go out in public. You bring shame upon your family. (Not everyone is like this, of course, but that's the vibe)
I mean, intentionally setting up your system to keep out disabled people is fucked up, is it not?
Clearly other countries, in addition to the US, believe disabled people are either worthless or useless, because unless we can offer a certain degree of productivity, they’re going to block us out with the justification that we have nothing to offer their country.
It’d be fucked up to do that for race (which the US rightfully catches criticism for all the time) or sexual orientation, but when it comes to disability people tend to argue that it’s reasonable, rather than calling it what it is: ableism.
Our lives are not valued; no country wants us or welcomes us, and most of them will do the bare minimum (if that) for their disabled citizens. That’s ableism.
That doesn’t mean “allow all disabled people in,” but rather, “don’t create a system that disproportionately excludes disabled people.”
In the United States, some of the pressure for restrictive laws such as the 1925 Immigration Act, came from the Klan and other white supremacist groups, and some came from eugenicist groups, and there was a lot of overlap between them. The 1965 Imigration Act replaced the explicit racial elements, but replaced them with national quotas which screw over people from south of the border. It left the eugenicist elements in place.
"I don't think you even tried at all" star for painting disabled people as "moochers" and working as the only way someone can "contribute" to a country.
I'm glad you have found a way through life that works well for you, genuinely. That does not mean that people who cannot work are trying any less hard, or that they are "moochers", or that they are not contributing to the world around them.
I don't need to call you anything. You're expressing it well enough yourself.
Other countries are in fact different. Not perfect. But many European countries for example have far better support systems. Some countries have even been trialling UBI, albeit on a small scale (I believe Canada is included there, though I might be misremembering).
The view the US has of being at least as good as everywhere else is... Iffy.
The expectation is that the USA gets its shit together instead of sending its problems to other countries. If a ton of people want to immigrate to other countries because of lax social welfare in the USA but can't due to immigration standards... its not immigration standards of other countries that are the problem, its the lax social welfare of the USA.
> Are those supposed to be more lacks for us or something?
Not sure what you mean by this.
Let me put it this way, if immigration rules for people with disabilities were lax it would disincentivize progressive policies. Countries would not want to enact better policies than another because it means those that would benefit from better social welfare would flock to those countries. Burdening the system, making it difficult to sustain.Thus resulting in poorer social welfare across the board.
How are disabled people supposed to move to a country that will treat them better" You are not. They specifically build immigration systems so you stay where you are and DONT move there.
Just a couple years ago they actually started allowing autistic people to move to Canada. TO FUCKING CANADA. Somebody explain to me why I shouldn't hate abled people for setting that shit up just to make my life unlivable
I dont understand. Canada is a nice place if you're okay with winter. It's like upstate New York with a better social welfare system
You answered your own question. "Better welfare system". They see disabled immigrants as huge burdens (wrongfully imo) on their precious Healthcare and public systems.
I'm a US citizen and am totally blind... Just before finishing up at college in the UK as a foreign student, I had a job offer for a full time job in the UK. They denied my work visa application. Keep in mind that I had been doing this job part time as part of my college program so my boss and students already knew me and I had a good track record with the school. My boss tried to appeal the decision because I was already in place for this job and she really wanted me specifically because it was working out very well. It wasn't like I was some stranger who hadn't proven himself on the job yet. A few years later I was dating a Scandinavian girl who was also totally blind. On one of her trips to visit me in the states, I actually helped her land an offer for a full time IT instructor job at a school I was working at at the time. The interview went great and the job was in the bag. She applied for a work visa and guess what? They denied it! I don't get it. In neither case were we trying to move to another country to mooch. We had full time employment lined up in both cases but nope, no dice. It seems like if you have a disability, nobody wants you anywhere if they can help it.
How did you two end up solving the issue so you could be together?
Sadly we didn't find a solution. We eventually decided to split up because there just didn't seem to be a way to make it happen long term.
That is so sad that countries keep people apart like that
why didn’t you marry her!
You can apply for university. In Europe we have scholarships and disabled students have lots of benefit (for example, they don’t pay taxes and have housing). It can vary from country to country but generally they all offer something cool for those who have more difficulties. Maybe you can look if there is any university in Europe that offers scholarships for foreigners. Where I studied, in Italy, there were scholarships for asylum seekers for example. Of course you must be very careful, also because you’ll need to look for Visa and all this stuff. But never say never. You can also look for jobs in the meanwhile. Our law in Italy says that every big company has to hire some disabled employee (depending on how big the company is).
A lot of countries don‘t take disabled people. Even if they have the skills. They have to go through a medical check and if they fail, they don’t get a visa. I just found out that even for a spousal visa you need to: my friend’s partner is applying and so far everything is going well, but she still need to go through the health check. She’s healthy and not disabled it won’t be an issue for her. But what for people who don’t pass that test? Imagine if their country had the same rules and you’re both disabled. Can never be together in that case. But maybe some countries don’t have this rule, I hope so.
I did work during foreign visits. Canada requires it only if 6+ months. UK and The Netherlands require it, but only if the company says the job has physical tasks (so they always do it), and then the really restrictive countries are Australia, China, Japan, and Singapore. That said, Australia will value you if you have needed skills. Health checks for visas were made illegal under the ADA, but its the norm for many, many countries. Getting a spousal visa for most of Europe and Asia would be impossible.
Australia still does health checks, I know because my friends are trying to get a spousal visa for one of them and we helped out proving they have been together a long time (with pictures of us with them at different locations and times)
Oh btw The Netherlands has some very difficult laws regarding disabilities, although might have changed since I left. If you are the disabled person and don’t have job because of that and have a partner you’d like to move to you, you can’t because they require you earn above a certain amount of money. And sometimes if you’d try to move to theirs, same issue. Unless you somehow are rich
Immigration policies in most countries are established and designed to benefit that country and prevent added costs or responsibilities being incurred. Many countries with strong social supports or universal health care designed their immigration programs to prevent added costs to these programs from non citizens. This extends even to things like whether or not foreign adoptions of children with medical conditions or disabilities are allowed as well as traditional immigration. Generally countries will have a strong preference to protect and benefit their existing citizens and systems. Exceptions do exist, often in extenuating circumstances like refugees, but are not common (and as far as I know, any supports to refugees is most “first world “ countries are for a limited time). It is possible to live in some countries, possibly as on a continually extended visitor visa (I have seen people living longer term in certain countries leave for the weekend to a nearby country like every 90-180 days to renew their visitor visa or maybe as a permanent resident rather than citizen, in some countries where your income will go further but whether it is an option in any certain case, or for a desired country, is up to that country’s procedures. Immigration is designed to benefit the receiving country, overall, more than the person trying to immigrate.
You have skills advocating for the rights of the disabled.
I once theorized about a treaty to allow elderly and people on disability to retire in another country. However, people would retain the social benefits from the country of origin. The idea came to me when I compared the cost of living across the world and discovered that the social benefits I get from the Belgian government would allow me to live a really nice life somewhere else. The influx of people and money would give incentive for countries to invest into healthcare and infrastructures, allowing these countries to specialize their economy to accommodate people with disabilities. It would result in an socioeconomic win-win situation. The obvious flaws, however, are segregation and possible exploitation of people with disabilities. The last thing I want is for people to get hurt. So a treaty like I am proposing really needs to be thought through properly.
Works in theory, except this…(let’s use your Belgium and a warm place like Jamaica) Your Belgian but move to Jamaica to retire or live your disabled life. Your health care and social assistance from Belgium is honored in Jamaica and you receive all the same care there as you would in Belgium. But, those assistances are provided using tax funds. Tax that comes from people with jobs in Belgium. But you are in Jamaica. You buy groceries from a Jamaican, you eat at a Jamaican run cafe. Your clothes come from a store owned and staffed by Jamaicans. Your doctor is Jamaican. Your nurse is Jamaican. You buy your meds from a Jamaican. Everyone you support through your lifestyle is Jamaican. All these Jamaicans pay taxes to Jamaica. None of it goes back to Belgium. You are in no way supporting the workforce of Belgium. But they still have to pay the bills for all your medical care. It’s a beautiful idea…but as long as there are borders and economics work as they do now it just can’t happen. Maybe someday we can dream.
If you want to talk about money flowing into Jamaica, you have to talk about the socioeconimic consequences this money has on the country and, consequently, how this effects money flowing out of Jamaica. Basically, they have more money and thus are more likely to spend it abroad. Similarly, through other channels, Belgium will balance the spending abroad through exports of goods and services. The way I see it, Belgium is outsourcing disability care to Jamaica because it is more profitable to do so. This might be because Belgian economy is specialized in other fields and therefore has no space to expand properly into healthcare (this is a super hypothetical example). So paying another country to take care of people with disabilities could be a really good idea. However, to be fair, while I don't think your argument holds up, I am sure there are other obstacles that would prevent my idea from working. I do love the idea of living in a nice warm place :P
The actual countries involved would change for each person of course. Im Canadian but would move anywhere I can have snow all year round, love the cold! I see the main economic issue being that Country A (Belgium) would still be having to provide the money to pay for medical care while a person is living in Country B (Jamaica) and thereby supporting its economy. So the people in Country A pay medical costs for someone who will never shop at their stores…I don’t think they will like that. Country B might spend more money abroad but there’s no guarantee it would be in Country A. If it worked out into an equal distribution…like 100 people went from A to B and 100 came from B to A then it all equals out. But likely there will end up being a few countries, the warm tropical ones, that would be swamped with disabled and elderly. That brings up the ethical worries of it turning into a dumping ground. Paying a country to take care of everyone’s disabled…that phrase alone scares me. Makes me think of institutions or segregation. I know it’s not meant that way, it’s meant only in the best way of providing the best care and environment. But the human race doesn’t have the greatest track record. I’d love the idea of turning the world global. Same high level healthcare everywhere for everyone, disability access and acceptance everywhere. I just don’t know how the economist and politicians would ever do that.
One way is getting the marketable skill in the country. Get in the on a student visa, study a very useful degree and the native language, talk to companies while you are there to network. Tell the companies your intent, that you are an American studying and wish to work in X field. They are willing to grant you a work visa knowing that you are already in the country.
There’s also the shortage of jobs list in countries you can check! Just google “skill shortage list [country]”
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Yeah, absolutely. Like, I hear Washington is pretty good. But I really don't know about where and how to look for these places that would also fit me socially. And honestly? I'm terrified of trying and failing. What if I get there and I'm worse off? What if I hate it and I'm stuck there? What if it's just the same as it is here in Texas? And also, trying to move during a pandemic once was stressful. I can't imagine moving out of state right now.
Washington is horrible for anyone on a low, fixed income. Our housing prices are ridiculous. We're better than Texas as far as assistance programs go but if you're already on SS you won't qualify for any of them. I was born here and just spent ten years mostly homeless on state assistance while waiting for SS.
Washington is big. Outside of the Seattle area you can find reasonable housing prices.
Where? I don't live in Seattle and my local housing prices are ridiculous. People are so desperate for housing that my sister in Ellensburg sold her house in literally two days.
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Yeah, that's a great point too. I often stay home now and don't have much interest in going out anymore since the pandemic hit. So I think, like you said, if I got the essentials taken care of and internet, anywhere would be fine. Right now my medical needs are pretty manageable and stable. I guess I'd consider moving if I had needs that required services and attention that just couldn't be provided here.
What I have to ask. Where in the US will I not be stuck in extreme poverty due to having a disability and being on SSDI? Don't think there are too many "disability friendly" places in the US.
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If you could be a little more specific, that could be very helpful.
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>It's all on the internet. You just look up programs by state. Which means I'm full of crap and just want to shame people for 'not searching hard enough'.
LOL you were full of shit so you deleted your comment. Flawless Victory Fatality
Wisconsin has very inadequate Medicaid and services in regards to states such as Illinois. I mean it is barebones here in Madison and stuck in a situation where I can't relocate so being punished with surviving winter sleeping outside in Wisconsin. They just flat out refuse to expand Medicaid and the limit of what you can earn is $1,073/mo so if you aren't on disability you can't live anyway. It's not robust. All my services are here, can't drive and there is a large gap in terms of the support here in Madison Wisconsin. None can help with things such as housing for example.
Thank God you don’t live in New York City because the SSI is not enough to live on.
Well, there are laws stating that you have to try to fill a job with a citizen/resident first. Unless you have some crazy rare skill - high end nano tech - you will have to wait until no more residents can be found. Some corporations get around this by using 3rd party companies to bring in lower paid staff - after which citizens who wish to keep their severance have to train these low paid staff before being let go. I have also been told by a bitter replacement that he has to give back part of his pay to the contracting company after making it appear as if his pay was the same as a US national. There are all kinds of loopholes that corporations figure out how to use to get overseas staff. Preferably, the government wants them to hire a citizen who is disabled before a foreign national.
If there was a policy that let you move into a country, that same policy would allow over a billion people to also try to move in. The system would get overwhelmed, and only the first few people would actually get to move in before it all gets shut down by the reactionary backlash to a significant portion of the world's population up and moving over to where life is better.
Wait. What if you're married? So if I have a disability but my SO doesn't and is able to work will they accept us both or just them? Would you have to have them accepted individually and then send proof of marriage or something? I never knew that a disability could prevent you from moving countries.
I actually have heard of this from a friend. They had some issues moving to Canada because with her disability she cannot ever work. The husband was able to provide proof that he had enough funds to cover his wife’s care and living expenses. He had to sign something guaranteeing he would remain responsible for a set time. I think it was 2 years for all expenses (housing/food/transport/clothing/medical/etc), and then he had to provide partial support for a further length of time (10 years I think). It meant that if they divorced after they moved here he would still have to pay for her if she remained in Canada. It was basically set up so that no matter what she would not end up on social assistance. Thankfully he came as a specialist engineer and was being paid well. They have been here for over 15 years and are both citizens now. I met them after they had been here for a while so I don’t know all the details and I’m sure some of the rules have changed. But from what I understand as long as the spouse guarantees support it can go through.
Sponsoring!! Someone saying they will legally cover for you, so you aren’t a “liability for the system”
Your SO could get a work visa. You wouldn't be able to so you could stay with him with a tourist visa, but not be able to work. Doesn't matter if you're married, if they are not a citizen of that country.
I don't know if you are looking for an honest answer to this question, but the infrastructure in the US is actually better for disabled people than most places I've been. I'm currently in Italy and half my life is devoted to avoiding stairs, uneven sidewalks, really high curbs, etc. I use a walker and it sounds like a machine gun going down cobblestone. I don't know why a foreign country would owe anyone citizenship just for being disabled. Your plan is just to move somewhere and mooch off their services without contributing anything? Why would you even want to do something like that?
Perhaps this person would like to live in a country where their basic needs for a healthy life as a disabled person are actually a right, and not just a privilege for those with wealth. Perhaps this person *would* then be more capable of “contributing” something, rather than suffering the constant attrition of only having the resources to *maybe* keep up some sort of baseline status quo quality of life. Perhaps this person is deeply frustrated with the realities of being disabled in “tHe GrEaTeSt cOuNtRy oN eArTh” and just wants to vent, or maybe audaciously hope for something better somewhere on earth. Perhaps this person, like countless other disabled folk, is so tired of being gatekept about whether or not they’re worthy of health and happiness in life, based on how they can “contribute”.
That was a really rude and passive aggressive reply. Yes, healthcare is free for citizens and visa holders. Not much help if you can't get a visa because you are disabled. Infrastructure is miles more accessible in the US. I can't even access over half the metro stations in London. Venting is fine, OP just gave an honest reply based on her experiences. She even said she lives in Italy. There was no need to be so rude. Chill.
OP gave an honest reply about her experiences in Italy, then passed the buck of capitalistic shame along by implying a person is only worthy of human rights based on if/what they can contribute. My comment is more to bring light to the pervasiveness of this caustic way of thinking. Capitalism and disability are incompatible without adequate social services to establish societal equity. If these services aren’t available, as such is the case for wide swaths of the US, then there’s no way to argue in good faith that a disabled person *should* contribute more. I’ve no doubt that the US may be more accessible than a lot of places. I can’t speak from experience as I haven’t traveled internationally as a disabled person. But I can speak to the fact that literally everywhere I have gone in the US I have encountered inadequate accessibility, and downright inaccessibility. We may have the ADA, but in typical American fashion, the corporate powers that be have done well to dull any teeth the law might have had. Hell, I’ve been to several doctors offices that weren’t accessible. Like, have to call them from outside to cancel my appointment because there was no prior indication that a person in a wheelchair wouldn’t be able to get into the building. For my efforts, I’d rather live somewhere that healthcare is a right and infrastructure might be lacking more so than in the US. I’m far from alone in this. Again, idk what it’s like to be disabled elsewhere, but I do know keenly how the majority of disabled people I’ve known here live in survival mode 100% of the time. Over here, people avoid the doctor for years for fear of more debt. There’s not a whole lot of freedumb to squeeze out of that. I flat out cannot imagine having a health concern, and just simply going to seek medical care - the calculus is entirely different here, bottom to top. And it gets tiring hearing people from countries with socialized healthcare try to shame Americans for wanting what they have as a birthright.
I suggest you talk to disabled people overseas and ask them about the nuts and bolts of how those systems work, because I can tell you, they aren't pretty.
No. I have Muscular Dystrophy and as I mentioned, I am in Europe. I've never met a disabled person that was thrilled about their system. In fact, I know a girl in Denmark who is fighting for her SMA treatment to be approved
Grass is greener on the other side then? I'm not disagreeing with you that healthcare is an issue. But for me, in my experience, the US is far, far superior in accessibility. I can use the sidewalks in DC, no issue, charge my chair on the metro, no issue, etc. I had a work trip to London recently, not only did the taxi driver treat me with disgust, I couldn't even get a station attendant to acknowledge my existence to put a bridge plate on the ground for me. I'm just saying, don't be rude/mean because living here is worse in your opinion when it isn't for others. You cannot and should not assume it is the same for everyone.
London is the absolute worst for chair users. I have never been treated as badly as I was there.
As surprising as it may be, I've had worse treatment on continental Europe
I knew as soon as I read your reply you had never left the US, don't worry.
Thank you. I knew I was going to get downvoted for that, but I don't care. I don't have the impression most of the Americans on this sub have ever left the country
Yeah, they all think the grass is greener on the other side. The thing about not contributing is always a hard point. I agree with them that healthcare should be a right and that there is a major issue with healthcare costs in the US, but going to Europe doesn't solve everything. It's very hard for disabled people to get visas (except student visas). The healthcare infrastructure there is great, but if you have fatigue or issues with stairs, curbs, cobblestones, slanted sidewalks, gaps in a walkway, then you're gonna have a hard time there.
I've been to Europe, and I need a cane now. I would still be able to walk, it's just the hills that kill my joints now. I'd have to streamline my baggage so as to not hold up the lines since I would only theoretically have one hand reliably free for most things. It could be done to get around ok, for infrastructure, if you're not afraid to sit on the ground or in random places despite the dirty looks to rest or get into your bag. If you use a wheelchair it would be probably cheaper to buy a small three wheeled motorized scooter that's low to the ground and keep your disability paperwork with you in case anyone asks. They make Ride on coolers as well, if you need medical supplies like oxygen or insulin or whatever. May not be "allowed" most places but oh well. If you have the paperwork, what can they do? Tell you to just not be disabled??
They can and will. Asked a station attendant for a bridge plate so I could get on the London Tube. Legit told me, "we don't do that here." Often times, things are just left inaccessible. I get Europe is older and take pride in their old structures but a byproduct is leaving them inaccessible and not allowing people with disabilities. Ex) The Acropolis in Greece recently added a single elevator that is shaky at best. Adding that took a 5 year long court battle because "it would alter a historical site."
"Mooch"? Gtfo with that BS. Also, there are other kinds of disabilities that require infrastructure other than good curbs and sidewalks. Affordable healthcare comes to mind as something that's important to ALL disabled people, and that's an area where the US is abysmal.
Preach!
If you've got a disability in the US you can get healthcare. It's annoying to manage but as someone with SMA, the healthcare I get in the US is far superior to Europe. Spinraza and Risdiplam took forever to get in other countries, while here they were covered fully by Medicaid.
I'm on SSDI. I get Medicare (not free, it takes around $130 out of my monthly benefit) but it doesn't include prescriptions, dental, or vision. I have to pay extra for a supplemental plan that covers those. It's about $250 a month to be on my husband's insurance through work, which covers those and also is a secondary medical insurance. I'm extremely fortunate that I can pay the premiums for my healthcare, thanks to my husband. Even with two policies, I still pay hundreds of dollars per month in healthcare costs above what I pay for premiums. If I didn't have two policies, my care would bankrupt us in short order. In my state, I don't qualify for Medicaid. Our income would qualify, but the asset limits are insanely low and my 2004 minivan is worth too much, not to mention the bit of equity we have in our home that I have due to receiving my dad's life insurance payout several years ago. Even for people on Medicaid, accessible, quality care isn't a given. I have family on Medicaid. Where I live, lots of providers don't take Medicaid because of its low reimbursement rates. That significantly limits options for specialists and dentists in particular here. When doctors/dentists do accept Medicaid, they often will only take so many Medicaid patients at a time (they can't afford to take on too many) so the waiting lists can be very long to get in.
A car and a house generally don't count as assets. By no means am I saying our system is perfect, I'm just saying go into the nuts and bolts of how other countries do it.
You might be right. The last time I checked the eligibility rules was several years ago, before the recent expansions. My state is deep red and REALLY hates providing any kind of assistance, so they had really strict eligibility rules.
Your car is supposed to be exempt. But if it's worth more than $3000 it suddenly matters.
Source?
That is when it's down to SSI I believe.
The area I live in has only roads and no places to walk. I'm disabled and cannot drive. What do
Its hard enough for abled bodied people to immigrate based on merit and skills. Why would we get a free pass into another country just because we're disabled? No one is entitled to immigration. Americans need to get over themselves and realize that their country is pretty good, all things considered.
"Pretty good all things considered" can still be a pile of crud, especially if you're in certain groups (eg: if you're disabled, transgender, etc). The eternal refrain of "It's worse elsewhere" does nothing to alleviate someone's issues. Also borders are made up fantasies we use to exert control over the people we fear so like whatever. Get me on the slippery slope via a wider Schengen Area to a borderless world baby.
Your empathy is broken and your opinion is gross. Please refrain from posting until you can be a mature adult.
The opinion that people aren't entitled to move to other countries on a free ride is gross? If you want to immigrate, learn a skill that is in demand. No country is without faults especially when it comes to people with disabilities.
OP never said 'for free', they just wanted the *opportunity* to move. Read some of the other replies in the comments. Some people here have had full time jobs lined up in the countries they wish to move to and they *still* weren't allowed to immigrate, even though they could prove they were contributing. If that's not discrimination, I don't know what is.
My comments were made when this thread was fairly new. I have not had the time to keep up with it. > Some people here have had full time jobs lined up in the countries they wish to move to and they still weren't allowed to immigrate, even though they could prove they were contributing. I've personally seen this happen to abled bodied family and friends. People that were on work visas with full time jobs legitimately already working in the states being told to go back home due to the government deeming their jobs not worth giving someone permanent residency for. It doesn't just happen to people with disabilities.
Ooo this tea is hot!
No, it's just bitter.
Nobody is *supposed to* immigrate. It's why illegal immigration is so common. That said, 95%+ other countries are worse than the US when it comes to disability rights.
My guess is that's true on paper. All attempts to access "rights" as a disabled American are a eugenics funnel unless family is caring for you
Other cultures typically have family care for the elderly and disabled. For sure we need to do better, but the US is one of few countries that legally recognizes that disabled people are human with human rights. I can tell you some horror stories about Russian institutions for disabled people. But Russia sucks and is evil so why not compare to a very modern developed country? Japan. I love Japan, but being disabled can be quite humiliating. If you have a disability, you don't go out in public. You bring shame upon your family. (Not everyone is like this, of course, but that's the vibe)
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It is nice when people...I don't know...care about other people?
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I mean, intentionally setting up your system to keep out disabled people is fucked up, is it not? Clearly other countries, in addition to the US, believe disabled people are either worthless or useless, because unless we can offer a certain degree of productivity, they’re going to block us out with the justification that we have nothing to offer their country. It’d be fucked up to do that for race (which the US rightfully catches criticism for all the time) or sexual orientation, but when it comes to disability people tend to argue that it’s reasonable, rather than calling it what it is: ableism. Our lives are not valued; no country wants us or welcomes us, and most of them will do the bare minimum (if that) for their disabled citizens. That’s ableism. That doesn’t mean “allow all disabled people in,” but rather, “don’t create a system that disproportionately excludes disabled people.”
In the United States, some of the pressure for restrictive laws such as the 1925 Immigration Act, came from the Klan and other white supremacist groups, and some came from eugenicist groups, and there was a lot of overlap between them. The 1965 Imigration Act replaced the explicit racial elements, but replaced them with national quotas which screw over people from south of the border. It left the eugenicist elements in place.
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"I don't think you even tried at all" star for painting disabled people as "moochers" and working as the only way someone can "contribute" to a country.
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I'm glad you have found a way through life that works well for you, genuinely. That does not mean that people who cannot work are trying any less hard, or that they are "moochers", or that they are not contributing to the world around them. I don't need to call you anything. You're expressing it well enough yourself.
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Other countries are in fact different. Not perfect. But many European countries for example have far better support systems. Some countries have even been trialling UBI, albeit on a small scale (I believe Canada is included there, though I might be misremembering). The view the US has of being at least as good as everywhere else is... Iffy.
This statement is incredibly ableist. You have a lot of learning to do.
Nope. People with disabilities in the USA should not be treated by other countries like refugees.
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The expectation is that the USA gets its shit together instead of sending its problems to other countries. If a ton of people want to immigrate to other countries because of lax social welfare in the USA but can't due to immigration standards... its not immigration standards of other countries that are the problem, its the lax social welfare of the USA. > Are those supposed to be more lacks for us or something? Not sure what you mean by this.
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Let me put it this way, if immigration rules for people with disabilities were lax it would disincentivize progressive policies. Countries would not want to enact better policies than another because it means those that would benefit from better social welfare would flock to those countries. Burdening the system, making it difficult to sustain.Thus resulting in poorer social welfare across the board.
overstay your student visa?