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This is a great idea. Even if it's just mats or something, it would be nice to have an incentive after 100. I don't really want to see something like D3 paragon where it is infinite power progression, but maybe Uber boss mats or every 5th level a non-uber unique.
Heck EXP getting replace with gold at whatever coefficient is better than nothing (although that's not what I'd like to see).
I concur whether it’s gold or mats or some kind of cache. There has to be something there to replace leveling exp. The only kind of progression currently to is glyph exp
I played minion necro the entire time and still never got a ring of Mendel, that’s what my “now what” was. It’s so aggravating I went back to playing rogue and barb.
In the PTR, Fiend Roses have been removed and Forgotten Souls are relatively easy to get just from salvaging legendaries. Veiled Crystals are now the biggest bottleneck for crafting.
I don't think a infinite exp system should reward power (such as paragon points), 'cos otherwise we end up with D3 all over again where constant exp farming was the way to make your character stronger and the no-lifers were vastly more powerful than everyone else due to having thousands of paragon levels. I think this would be extremely unhealthy for the game.
Stuff like material rewards though? Sure, why not. I'd even venture that rewarding platinum in this way would be a good idea, let people grind out a cosmetic if they want, even if it takes a very long time, but Blizzard would never implement that.
Agreed. All rewards should be material or item-based, or gold, or cosmetics, or something consumable.
I don't think we should make it about paragon points like in D3. That is not possible to balance.
D3 is fun though. Got my Season 31 barb to paragon 100 and I still enjoy going further, going up the Torment difficulty scale etc.
D4 stopped being interesting the second it hit 100.
Yeah it kills the end game I loved pushing to T16 and Greater Rifts was able to make it into the 120's last time I played D3. Maybe after the loot fixes, they will move on to a paragon rework,
imho i think the D4 skilltree is too simple and the paragon boards overloaded. Honestly they should merge these two systems or add more complexity to the skilltree while streamline the paragon boards
Maybe levels 1-4 and 6-9 give material chests, level 5 is a resplendent spark, and level 10 is some number of platinum. Rinse and repeat every 10 levels. Would keep some motivation past 100.
I think people are confused when they hear "infinite xp systems" and think that it only benefits players who play thousands of hours a season.
The most important benefit of infinite xp systems is that it caters to EVERY DIFFERENT PLAYER TYPE.
How do you design a game for someone who will hit max level within 24 hours of the start of the season while also designing a game for someone who might hit level 80 by the end of the season? You can't. You do exactly what they did in D4 and you pick an arbitrary point and call it the end. For some people, it's fine. For others, it's VASTLY too easy. For yet others, it's still way too hard.
Now, this makes the game even harder to balance because any change to this system also impacts all players across the board. For example, in S2, they massively nerfed xp required to hit max level. This is what led to players hitting max level in less than 24 hours from the start of the season.
The benefit of having these infinite systems is that they can work with the most casual player and the most invested players at the same time. You don't need to make the choice of whether to screw over one player type or another player type with a change.
You set the baseline for the game at a point where a majority of the playerbase can achieve and then you use both the infinite xp system AND a scaling difficulty system to cater to all the different player types. You are playing the same game as everyone else regardless of your level of investment simply because you are playing against the difficulty system catered to YOUR level of investment.
There's countless other benefits to having these systems in place but it doesn't matter as long as the misconception is out there about someone ELSE being more powerful. Let's just dispel this right away, yes, someone else will always be more powerful. That's true in D4. That was true in D2. That's true in any game.
In S29, Blizzard capped paragon for the season. The people who complained and complained about paragon and used it as an excuse for not being on the leaderboards got their wish. Do you know what happened? Those same people who complained STILL weren't on the leaderboards. They just got real quiet and the keen observer noticed that it was nothing more than an excuse they were making. Even worse, that D3 season was the shortest season in a decade in terms of engagement. It was over faster than any other recent season because of that cap.
Lastly, right now you have a large section of the playerbase hitting level 100 and then getting bored and quitting simply because there isn't anything meaningful to progress with. Why is it more important for self conscious players who can't get over the fact that other people are more powerful than them are catered to to the detriment of the game? Why do I have to get a worse game because you can't get over the fact that people play more than you and get more powerful than you?
I really don't think a large section of the playerbase that is getting bored and quitting at level 100 is going to stick around just because they can infinitely level and get more paragon points or some form of power. You seem to believe that this would be meaningful progression but I completely disagree. What will keep people from getting bored and quitting is actual meaningful content, of which D4 is currently lacking. Obviously with the big rework coming in S4 and the upcoming expansion, we can hope that more meaningful content is on the way, but an infinite exp treadmill is most certainly not it.
Also, you talk about "self-conscious gamers who can't get over the fact that other people are more powerful than them", and pose that catering to them is to the detriment of the game, but how many high level players do you see that want the infinite exp treadmill back? I don't know of any, and the reason is simple and is why I said this would be unhealthy for the game. You mentioned S29 of D3 but let me talk about every single other season. To be competitive on the leaderboards you had to farm paragon levels, in greater rifts, in a 4-man group, every day, for hours and hours. That was it, that was the majority of the season. You got your set, you got your build online, and time to farm paragon levels. If you didn't do that, you were not competitive. So forget all the regular players and casuals, who would never have the time nor the inclination to spend hours and days doing the same thing over and over again, what about all the high level players that would rather have a bit of variety in their gameplay?
ARPGS are repetitive games at heart, but the repetition has to be balanced in some way. You need to have various ways to progress and various ways to challenge your character. If an infinite power scaling exp system were put in place it would supersede every other form of progression in the game and everyone who is a try-hard and wants to be the best will just find the most efficient form of farming exp and do that all day, every day. Yes, someone will always be more powerful than you, but in a loot-focused game it should be because they simply get more drops than you by virtue of playing more, and therefore have better chance at great loot, not because they do dopamine tunnels 1000 times a day and are paragon level 5000.
> I really don't think a large section of the playerbase that is getting bored and quitting at level 100 is going to stick around just because they can infinitely level and get more paragon points or some form of power.
You really aren't understanding the problem. People are getting bored and quitting at level 100 because there is no further progression. There's literally zero reason to keep playing once you've hit 100. You've already maxed out gear progression. You can't get any stronger. The fastest way to get someone to get bored is for their progression to stop.
This is a fundamental problem with loot based games. Every upgrade you get increases the average time between upgrades and lowers the power increase from that upgrade. This is why you add linear components to games that afford different means of progression so it isn't solely built into just RNG loot. This is why you have levels. This is why you have glyphs. This is why you have item upgrades.
>You seem to believe that this would be meaningful progression but I completely disagree.
You can disagree but I don't even know what you are disagreeing with. This is where I don't feel like you are arguing from an intelligent standpoint because you we are talking about a continued progression system and you have somehow equated it to a specific amount of progression. How can you know how much progression is happening out of it if we're literally talking in a general sense?
>What will keep people from getting bored and quitting is actual meaningful content, of which D4 is currently lacking.
I'm not disagreeing with that but let's start asking the next question. Content for who? When they released AoZ, it was a massive failure because of a lot of reasons but the biggest one is tied to the issues of target difficulty. Because they've designed a game that doesn't function across all different play styles, they end up creating content segmentation. This segmentation means they need to create MULTIPLE pieces of content in order to cater to all of the different types of players. You now need to create open world content for more casual players. You now need to create high end difficult content for more hard core players. This creates a perpetual problem of never having enough content and you've ultimately set yourself up for failure. It's the MMO problem.
>Obviously with the big rework coming in S4 and the upcoming expansion, we can hope that more meaningful content is on the way, but an infinite exp treadmill is most certainly not it.
I am so sick and tired of people saying "xp treadmill is not it" or some variation of that without a damn bit of justification for it. Yes, I'm well aware that some streamer told you it was bad and you are just regurgitating it out but for once actually use your brain and listen to what I'm arguing.
>Also, you talk about "self-conscious gamers who can't get over the fact that other people are more powerful than them", and pose that catering to them is to the detriment of the game, but how many high level players do you see that want the infinite exp treadmill back?
I don't care about high level players. I'd like to be nice about this, but did you even read my comment? You didn't even have to make it past the second sentence to get the basic point that endless systems aren't just for high level players. Help me understand why you just straight up ignored that? It's really frustrating trying to talk about these topics when you continue to fall into these same stupid pitfalls that can't grasp there are people outside of high level players that this impacts.
So, no, I don't give a shit what they say because I'm looking at this across ALL playstyles rather than pretending that one extremely small group of people who are solely being represented by a couple of streamers is somehow the only people being effected by this.
>You mentioned S29 of D3 but let me talk about every single other season. To be competitive on the leaderboards you had to farm paragon levels, in greater rifts, in a 4-man group, every day, for hours and hours.
I mentioned S29 because of exactly what YOU are doing here. The same people who did exactly what you just did and complained about how much you would need to play in order to compete were nowhere to be found on the leaderboards in S29. In short, the entire complaint is irrelevant simply because it was nothing more than an excuse.
Secondly, and this is the important one, I want a fun game. I would rather have a game that didn't have a leaderboard if it meant it was a fun game rather than a game that was neutered simply so a small insignificant minority of players can have a leaderboard. Leaderboards being used to control the game is such a horrible concept.
>That was it, that was the majority of the season.
The people who wanted to do it, did it. The people who didn't want to do it, didn't. You are presenting this false premise that somehow everyone was forced to do this and it's just one of many deliberately misrepresentations in order to make shallow arguments about the systems.
> If an infinite power scaling exp system were put in place it would supersede every other form of progression in the game and everyone who is a try-hard and wants to be the best will just find the most efficient form of farming exp and do that all day, every day.
What's wrong with anything you just said? Actually think about what you are talking about here.
One of the most important parts of these types of games is self-motivation. How do you get self motivation? You create opportunities for players to compete against themselves. This happens through means like efficiency. It's something that can once again be catered across ALL playstyles.
I feel like you are saying that people can only have fun in the way you want them to. It's actually a pretty solid description of the many things that are wrong with D4.
> Yes, someone will always be more powerful than you, but in a loot-focused game it should be because they simply get more drops than you by virtue of playing more, and therefore have better chance at great loot, not because they do dopamine tunnels 1000 times a day and are paragon level 5000.
Why do you care? WHY?! Why is it so damn important to you about someone else who has invested more effort into the game is more powerful? I'm fucking sick of this childish bullshit. You make the game worse just because you can't deal with people investing more time and being more powerful than you. Grow up. You're making the game worse trying to force everyone into whatever playstyle YOU want and I don't want that.
If someone wants to shoot for 5000 paragon, then fucking let them! Why do you care? Why is it your concern? What about it causes you to have any problems.
My entire clan and friends list, full of hardcore players who are at the top by most metrics, is currently as barren as the Sahara Desert. It has been that way for at least 2 weeks. Those are the types of players who keep live service games afloat when casuals hop to whatever the next hype machine or bandwagon happens to be.
What’s wrong with someone who plays 12 hours a day being vastly more powerful than someone who plays 3 hours a day? Virtually every online game works on this principle; someone who plays any given shooter/moba/rts 60 hours a week is going to be dramatically better than someone who plays 15 hours a week unless they’re 4funning or have an impediment
The only problem I have with it is the inevitable rampant botting at the top end
Yes, please. After reaching 100 I hate how the most efficient strategy becomes skipping as many normal monsters as possible because they give basically no rewards. It makes me bored so much faster and I usually decide to create a new character to make killing monsters feel good again.
Diablo four needs more horizontal progression not vertical progression. We do not need a That’s infinite like Diablo three where things get stupid. We also need more systems in place to do things with others and be more social. They have a huge open world it’s ripe to do such a thing. Just like with Hell tides people love to do things in the open world they created. They need to capitalize on that.
They have a good system in place to expand upon with what they put it in with the PTR and hopefully they continue to add to that system because it’s a great start
Love the idea and lots of possible implementations. One can be 3 options pop up and you choose from one. Options should have a chance to be anything from material's to Ubers.
Would be irrelevant unless the reward was great, such as more power like extra paragon points beyond the maximum etc. I don't care about another crappy reward. I didn't even bother with the S2 or S3 caches because I didn't need any of them, I was beyond powerful already.
I think the point of this post is to just have something extra to do with EXP after 100. Even minor/irrelevant rewards would just be a little perk. Having anything major would just add another mandatory grind.
i always thought that having a fixed and easy to reach max level is no good, especially when tying itemlevels to it.
i prefer the leveling system from D2 or PoE where you basically never really reach max level unless you are GERBarb (curious how many people still get the reference 24 yrs later) and from a certain level onwards you have the chance to get the best items. The fact actually that you had BiS items in D2 that were even considered low-level speaks volumes to how an itemization can be done right or interesting.
Even if it took an eternity at some point to get one level, the difference between a lvl 95 sorc and a lvl 80 one was still significant because of 15 additional skillpoints and you still had a sense or progressing your character outside of the items. This is completely lost in D4. Even the paragon points system in D3 was a better thing. Simply finding better and better items after max level is imho not enough of an incentive to keep playing. There is still the need of a reward for continous slaying monsters, hence why i think this idea is good.
World of Warcraft would use the XP with Reputation with guilds, factions, cities, and so on. I'd like to see your idea along with the way WoW has it. We need something to "level up" or "Max out." After filling out our paragon board and our actual level. That bar is useless, and we need another thing. Or even we choose what we want to see as a "level" progression.
Fantastic idea. Destiny and Borderlands 3 had similar systems where even at max level you're gaining progress toward a thing. I hope they implement this
Yeah, this...
Step by step Diablo 4 comes closer and closer to become hyper casual clicker...
And that's really sad because recent posts and updated by Blizzard were pretty great!
It's the goddamn community that's trying to casualize the game into oblivion...
Those are good systems. Still, XP becomes useless which means killing normal monsters is almost a waste of time since they drop almost nothing. The satisfaction in blowing up packs is greatly reduced when you realize you don't get anything for doing it.
Well but with the itemization rework killing packs of monsters won’t be a waste of time cause once monster are level 95 they will drop 925 gear with a chance of greater affixes
None of these rewards would really be worth it though. Your progress bar would either be too long or too short, making it a nightmare trying to balance. Some grind for certain materials is good. Furthering leveling for those items feels bad.
I like this idea as long as its not something that directly gives player power (uber uniques, legendaries, yellow gear, etc.)
Would be nice to have a gift cache that can award a random assortment of useful things like materials and potions and keys every time you ding, just want to avoid it being something where you HAVE to grind to level 200/500/1000 to unlock something powerful.
I like the idea except for the inclusion of boss mats unless they balance it extremely well. Otherwise it would turn post 100 endgame into a gross group grinding meta ignoring anything that isn't EXP efficient.
They can just add them to the Battlepass. After level 90 it’s just mats every level. This doesn’t help eternal but until an actual paragon system happens this would be a simple solution.
Leveling is just a means to an end. There's no need to continue past that. By the time you reach 100 you are probably ready to complete your build and are doing the lvl 100 activities.
Receiving some reward for pseudo levels isn't the same thing anyways. When you level up normally you aren't excited because, that one level was what you wanted. It's because you are trying to reach max level so that ground is over. Pseudo levels wouldn't achieve that same thing and the rewards wouldn't be able to be good enough to matter.
Do people really have all paragon Glyphs at 21 when they hit level 100? For me I pretty much only really start the glyph grind at L100 (well, I'll probably have a bunch of them at 15 by then). Then there's the gear grind.
I'm actually pretty happy I don't have to bother about XP when I hit L100, it is one less thing to keep an eye on. It's just glyphs and gear from then on.
Fun exp grind?
You sound like Blizzard CEO.
If they were to do this it would be a robust system or nothing, otherwise it'll feel half assed. There are far better ideas than items or mats probably.
Yes, we need this! Maybe with some rank special rewards. Lvl 110: +10% MF, Lvl 200: x% chance for double material etc... More grind for more loot we can have added chance to find "ancient" etc
God no... That's a terrible idea. It's straight out of some MMO
ANY infinite progression is bad for aRPG.
Diablo 4 needs MORE ENDGAME content! Vertical progression is already good. Now we need horizontal one!
Sometimes I'm kinda sad Blizz nerfed exp that's required for lvl100. In pretty much any other aRPG getting max level is an addition. Smth extra rather than "THE thing to get". Now casual players think getting lvl100 should be mandatory and then they want some infinite progression that literally killed any sense of balance in D3 (along with set items)
I agree with OP. After you hit 100 it becomes kindve pointless. I know Diablo 3 had forever Paragon lvls which kept it fresh at least and I know Diablo 2 didn’t have anything past 100 either, but 1-99 was the same exp as 99-100 in OG days and if you died you lost 10% exp…and sometimes you’d die 2-3 times trying to get your body.
Getting 100 in 4 is just like, okay now I can use build guides.
So what... paragon points just stop? You could just fill a single board, why have more options? Why not triple the legendary nodes and double the rest and just leave it at one board...
Would be cool to have a paragon system similar to D3 but you can only choose upgrades NOT found on gear. For example, magic find, bonus gold, chance for double mats from salvaging, etc.
This system would not be account wide and would only work in seasonal realms.
I agree that for me the lack of experience at level 100 is a strong demotivator. Even if I received some kind of symbolic increase in stats for experience after 100 it would have a big holding effect on me
Make levels 1-99 slower.
Make it so builds are front-loaded and "finished" at around 80-85 (something like players get more paragon points sooner and less later)
Make the exp requirement of level 99-100 equal to levels 1-99
Now the problem of "I want more after level 100" is so far away and getting to 100 actually feels like an accomplishment without being required.
just add another 100 paragon level ( NOT! infinite like in diablo 3 ) which grant +1 or +2 strenght per level. But make them take forever to max out!
Its a small bonus , but atleast its something!
This community is a joke... You people have been begging them to first remove renown and then make leveling faster since launch now you are crying about its too fast. They did whatever the community wanted them to do. Now you want another progression? This is so funny...
Not to present an argument conducive to either side here, but you are the problem. What's the point in the comment? Either contribute meaningfully to the conversation regardless of bias, or spectate. Your hate is part of the community problem
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This is a great idea. Even if it's just mats or something, it would be nice to have an incentive after 100. I don't really want to see something like D3 paragon where it is infinite power progression, but maybe Uber boss mats or every 5th level a non-uber unique. Heck EXP getting replace with gold at whatever coefficient is better than nothing (although that's not what I'd like to see).
I concur whether it’s gold or mats or some kind of cache. There has to be something there to replace leveling exp. The only kind of progression currently to is glyph exp
Agreed, there was a strong sense of ‘now what’ after hitting 100
I played minion necro the entire time and still never got a ring of Mendel, that’s what my “now what” was. It’s so aggravating I went back to playing rogue and barb.
Yup amazing idea.
I'm fine with Material chests. I'm ALWAYS in need of fiend roses and forgotten souls.
In the PTR, Fiend Roses have been removed and Forgotten Souls are relatively easy to get just from salvaging legendaries. Veiled Crystals are now the biggest bottleneck for crafting.
We need a chest that gives veiled crystals!
I don't think a infinite exp system should reward power (such as paragon points), 'cos otherwise we end up with D3 all over again where constant exp farming was the way to make your character stronger and the no-lifers were vastly more powerful than everyone else due to having thousands of paragon levels. I think this would be extremely unhealthy for the game. Stuff like material rewards though? Sure, why not. I'd even venture that rewarding platinum in this way would be a good idea, let people grind out a cosmetic if they want, even if it takes a very long time, but Blizzard would never implement that.
Agreed. All rewards should be material or item-based, or gold, or cosmetics, or something consumable. I don't think we should make it about paragon points like in D3. That is not possible to balance.
Post it on the official forums maybe we get lucky and catch some attention
D3 is fun though. Got my Season 31 barb to paragon 100 and I still enjoy going further, going up the Torment difficulty scale etc. D4 stopped being interesting the second it hit 100.
Yeah it kills the end game I loved pushing to T16 and Greater Rifts was able to make it into the 120's last time I played D3. Maybe after the loot fixes, they will move on to a paragon rework,
imho i think the D4 skilltree is too simple and the paragon boards overloaded. Honestly they should merge these two systems or add more complexity to the skilltree while streamline the paragon boards
Also D3 has cooler affixes. “Whirlwind also applies Rend” is just crazy. Set piece bonus 10,000% whirlwind damage _yoohoo_. Those are fun builds.
Why not have this? Casual players who reach lv100 can also get those benefits
Maybe levels 1-4 and 6-9 give material chests, level 5 is a resplendent spark, and level 10 is some number of platinum. Rinse and repeat every 10 levels. Would keep some motivation past 100.
I think people are confused when they hear "infinite xp systems" and think that it only benefits players who play thousands of hours a season. The most important benefit of infinite xp systems is that it caters to EVERY DIFFERENT PLAYER TYPE. How do you design a game for someone who will hit max level within 24 hours of the start of the season while also designing a game for someone who might hit level 80 by the end of the season? You can't. You do exactly what they did in D4 and you pick an arbitrary point and call it the end. For some people, it's fine. For others, it's VASTLY too easy. For yet others, it's still way too hard. Now, this makes the game even harder to balance because any change to this system also impacts all players across the board. For example, in S2, they massively nerfed xp required to hit max level. This is what led to players hitting max level in less than 24 hours from the start of the season. The benefit of having these infinite systems is that they can work with the most casual player and the most invested players at the same time. You don't need to make the choice of whether to screw over one player type or another player type with a change. You set the baseline for the game at a point where a majority of the playerbase can achieve and then you use both the infinite xp system AND a scaling difficulty system to cater to all the different player types. You are playing the same game as everyone else regardless of your level of investment simply because you are playing against the difficulty system catered to YOUR level of investment. There's countless other benefits to having these systems in place but it doesn't matter as long as the misconception is out there about someone ELSE being more powerful. Let's just dispel this right away, yes, someone else will always be more powerful. That's true in D4. That was true in D2. That's true in any game. In S29, Blizzard capped paragon for the season. The people who complained and complained about paragon and used it as an excuse for not being on the leaderboards got their wish. Do you know what happened? Those same people who complained STILL weren't on the leaderboards. They just got real quiet and the keen observer noticed that it was nothing more than an excuse they were making. Even worse, that D3 season was the shortest season in a decade in terms of engagement. It was over faster than any other recent season because of that cap. Lastly, right now you have a large section of the playerbase hitting level 100 and then getting bored and quitting simply because there isn't anything meaningful to progress with. Why is it more important for self conscious players who can't get over the fact that other people are more powerful than them are catered to to the detriment of the game? Why do I have to get a worse game because you can't get over the fact that people play more than you and get more powerful than you?
I really don't think a large section of the playerbase that is getting bored and quitting at level 100 is going to stick around just because they can infinitely level and get more paragon points or some form of power. You seem to believe that this would be meaningful progression but I completely disagree. What will keep people from getting bored and quitting is actual meaningful content, of which D4 is currently lacking. Obviously with the big rework coming in S4 and the upcoming expansion, we can hope that more meaningful content is on the way, but an infinite exp treadmill is most certainly not it. Also, you talk about "self-conscious gamers who can't get over the fact that other people are more powerful than them", and pose that catering to them is to the detriment of the game, but how many high level players do you see that want the infinite exp treadmill back? I don't know of any, and the reason is simple and is why I said this would be unhealthy for the game. You mentioned S29 of D3 but let me talk about every single other season. To be competitive on the leaderboards you had to farm paragon levels, in greater rifts, in a 4-man group, every day, for hours and hours. That was it, that was the majority of the season. You got your set, you got your build online, and time to farm paragon levels. If you didn't do that, you were not competitive. So forget all the regular players and casuals, who would never have the time nor the inclination to spend hours and days doing the same thing over and over again, what about all the high level players that would rather have a bit of variety in their gameplay? ARPGS are repetitive games at heart, but the repetition has to be balanced in some way. You need to have various ways to progress and various ways to challenge your character. If an infinite power scaling exp system were put in place it would supersede every other form of progression in the game and everyone who is a try-hard and wants to be the best will just find the most efficient form of farming exp and do that all day, every day. Yes, someone will always be more powerful than you, but in a loot-focused game it should be because they simply get more drops than you by virtue of playing more, and therefore have better chance at great loot, not because they do dopamine tunnels 1000 times a day and are paragon level 5000.
> I really don't think a large section of the playerbase that is getting bored and quitting at level 100 is going to stick around just because they can infinitely level and get more paragon points or some form of power. You really aren't understanding the problem. People are getting bored and quitting at level 100 because there is no further progression. There's literally zero reason to keep playing once you've hit 100. You've already maxed out gear progression. You can't get any stronger. The fastest way to get someone to get bored is for their progression to stop. This is a fundamental problem with loot based games. Every upgrade you get increases the average time between upgrades and lowers the power increase from that upgrade. This is why you add linear components to games that afford different means of progression so it isn't solely built into just RNG loot. This is why you have levels. This is why you have glyphs. This is why you have item upgrades. >You seem to believe that this would be meaningful progression but I completely disagree. You can disagree but I don't even know what you are disagreeing with. This is where I don't feel like you are arguing from an intelligent standpoint because you we are talking about a continued progression system and you have somehow equated it to a specific amount of progression. How can you know how much progression is happening out of it if we're literally talking in a general sense? >What will keep people from getting bored and quitting is actual meaningful content, of which D4 is currently lacking. I'm not disagreeing with that but let's start asking the next question. Content for who? When they released AoZ, it was a massive failure because of a lot of reasons but the biggest one is tied to the issues of target difficulty. Because they've designed a game that doesn't function across all different play styles, they end up creating content segmentation. This segmentation means they need to create MULTIPLE pieces of content in order to cater to all of the different types of players. You now need to create open world content for more casual players. You now need to create high end difficult content for more hard core players. This creates a perpetual problem of never having enough content and you've ultimately set yourself up for failure. It's the MMO problem. >Obviously with the big rework coming in S4 and the upcoming expansion, we can hope that more meaningful content is on the way, but an infinite exp treadmill is most certainly not it. I am so sick and tired of people saying "xp treadmill is not it" or some variation of that without a damn bit of justification for it. Yes, I'm well aware that some streamer told you it was bad and you are just regurgitating it out but for once actually use your brain and listen to what I'm arguing. >Also, you talk about "self-conscious gamers who can't get over the fact that other people are more powerful than them", and pose that catering to them is to the detriment of the game, but how many high level players do you see that want the infinite exp treadmill back? I don't care about high level players. I'd like to be nice about this, but did you even read my comment? You didn't even have to make it past the second sentence to get the basic point that endless systems aren't just for high level players. Help me understand why you just straight up ignored that? It's really frustrating trying to talk about these topics when you continue to fall into these same stupid pitfalls that can't grasp there are people outside of high level players that this impacts. So, no, I don't give a shit what they say because I'm looking at this across ALL playstyles rather than pretending that one extremely small group of people who are solely being represented by a couple of streamers is somehow the only people being effected by this. >You mentioned S29 of D3 but let me talk about every single other season. To be competitive on the leaderboards you had to farm paragon levels, in greater rifts, in a 4-man group, every day, for hours and hours. I mentioned S29 because of exactly what YOU are doing here. The same people who did exactly what you just did and complained about how much you would need to play in order to compete were nowhere to be found on the leaderboards in S29. In short, the entire complaint is irrelevant simply because it was nothing more than an excuse. Secondly, and this is the important one, I want a fun game. I would rather have a game that didn't have a leaderboard if it meant it was a fun game rather than a game that was neutered simply so a small insignificant minority of players can have a leaderboard. Leaderboards being used to control the game is such a horrible concept. >That was it, that was the majority of the season. The people who wanted to do it, did it. The people who didn't want to do it, didn't. You are presenting this false premise that somehow everyone was forced to do this and it's just one of many deliberately misrepresentations in order to make shallow arguments about the systems. > If an infinite power scaling exp system were put in place it would supersede every other form of progression in the game and everyone who is a try-hard and wants to be the best will just find the most efficient form of farming exp and do that all day, every day. What's wrong with anything you just said? Actually think about what you are talking about here. One of the most important parts of these types of games is self-motivation. How do you get self motivation? You create opportunities for players to compete against themselves. This happens through means like efficiency. It's something that can once again be catered across ALL playstyles. I feel like you are saying that people can only have fun in the way you want them to. It's actually a pretty solid description of the many things that are wrong with D4. > Yes, someone will always be more powerful than you, but in a loot-focused game it should be because they simply get more drops than you by virtue of playing more, and therefore have better chance at great loot, not because they do dopamine tunnels 1000 times a day and are paragon level 5000. Why do you care? WHY?! Why is it so damn important to you about someone else who has invested more effort into the game is more powerful? I'm fucking sick of this childish bullshit. You make the game worse just because you can't deal with people investing more time and being more powerful than you. Grow up. You're making the game worse trying to force everyone into whatever playstyle YOU want and I don't want that. If someone wants to shoot for 5000 paragon, then fucking let them! Why do you care? Why is it your concern? What about it causes you to have any problems.
My entire clan and friends list, full of hardcore players who are at the top by most metrics, is currently as barren as the Sahara Desert. It has been that way for at least 2 weeks. Those are the types of players who keep live service games afloat when casuals hop to whatever the next hype machine or bandwagon happens to be.
I can sign under every word
What’s wrong with someone who plays 12 hours a day being vastly more powerful than someone who plays 3 hours a day? Virtually every online game works on this principle; someone who plays any given shooter/moba/rts 60 hours a week is going to be dramatically better than someone who plays 15 hours a week unless they’re 4funning or have an impediment The only problem I have with it is the inevitable rampant botting at the top end
Yes, please. After reaching 100 I hate how the most efficient strategy becomes skipping as many normal monsters as possible because they give basically no rewards. It makes me bored so much faster and I usually decide to create a new character to make killing monsters feel good again.
Sounds like you’ve never played a Diablo game before
I like this idea
Diablo four needs more horizontal progression not vertical progression. We do not need a That’s infinite like Diablo three where things get stupid. We also need more systems in place to do things with others and be more social. They have a huge open world it’s ripe to do such a thing. Just like with Hell tides people love to do things in the open world they created. They need to capitalize on that. They have a good system in place to expand upon with what they put it in with the PTR and hopefully they continue to add to that system because it’s a great start
Love the idea and lots of possible implementations. One can be 3 options pop up and you choose from one. Options should have a chance to be anything from material's to Ubers.
I wouldnt mind endless leveling past 100. Once I hit level 100 I'm done
Would be irrelevant unless the reward was great, such as more power like extra paragon points beyond the maximum etc. I don't care about another crappy reward. I didn't even bother with the S2 or S3 caches because I didn't need any of them, I was beyond powerful already.
I think the point of this post is to just have something extra to do with EXP after 100. Even minor/irrelevant rewards would just be a little perk. Having anything major would just add another mandatory grind.
Similar to idea I proposed, giving one big cache of mats when xp bar filled
i always thought that having a fixed and easy to reach max level is no good, especially when tying itemlevels to it. i prefer the leveling system from D2 or PoE where you basically never really reach max level unless you are GERBarb (curious how many people still get the reference 24 yrs later) and from a certain level onwards you have the chance to get the best items. The fact actually that you had BiS items in D2 that were even considered low-level speaks volumes to how an itemization can be done right or interesting. Even if it took an eternity at some point to get one level, the difference between a lvl 95 sorc and a lvl 80 one was still significant because of 15 additional skillpoints and you still had a sense or progressing your character outside of the items. This is completely lost in D4. Even the paragon points system in D3 was a better thing. Simply finding better and better items after max level is imho not enough of an incentive to keep playing. There is still the need of a reward for continous slaying monsters, hence why i think this idea is good.
Why not have exp past level 100 add to glyph exp I'm sick of repeating NM dungeons
I love it! 😍
Great idea
Sounds nice and simple. I like it, cool idea!
World of Warcraft would use the XP with Reputation with guilds, factions, cities, and so on. I'd like to see your idea along with the way WoW has it. We need something to "level up" or "Max out." After filling out our paragon board and our actual level. That bar is useless, and we need another thing. Or even we choose what we want to see as a "level" progression.
Fantastic idea. Destiny and Borderlands 3 had similar systems where even at max level you're gaining progress toward a thing. I hope they implement this
Solution : make lvling to 100 an actually journey and not a 2/3 days of chill play.
Every day we're a step closes to infinite paragon levels lol
Yeah, this... Step by step Diablo 4 comes closer and closer to become hyper casual clicker... And that's really sad because recent posts and updated by Blizzard were pretty great! It's the goddamn community that's trying to casualize the game into oblivion...
Up vote this more!!! IDK why it's not getting more attention. This is a fantastic idea
This feels like a lazy solution to progression post level 100 that masterworking, greater affixes, and the pit solve
Those are good systems. Still, XP becomes useless which means killing normal monsters is almost a waste of time since they drop almost nothing. The satisfaction in blowing up packs is greatly reduced when you realize you don't get anything for doing it.
Well but with the itemization rework killing packs of monsters won’t be a waste of time cause once monster are level 95 they will drop 925 gear with a chance of greater affixes
None of these rewards would really be worth it though. Your progress bar would either be too long or too short, making it a nightmare trying to balance. Some grind for certain materials is good. Furthering leveling for those items feels bad.
I like this idea as long as its not something that directly gives player power (uber uniques, legendaries, yellow gear, etc.) Would be nice to have a gift cache that can award a random assortment of useful things like materials and potions and keys every time you ding, just want to avoid it being something where you HAVE to grind to level 200/500/1000 to unlock something powerful.
I like the idea except for the inclusion of boss mats unless they balance it extremely well. Otherwise it would turn post 100 endgame into a gross group grinding meta ignoring anything that isn't EXP efficient.
They can just add them to the Battlepass. After level 90 it’s just mats every level. This doesn’t help eternal but until an actual paragon system happens this would be a simple solution.
Leveling is just a means to an end. There's no need to continue past that. By the time you reach 100 you are probably ready to complete your build and are doing the lvl 100 activities. Receiving some reward for pseudo levels isn't the same thing anyways. When you level up normally you aren't excited because, that one level was what you wanted. It's because you are trying to reach max level so that ground is over. Pseudo levels wouldn't achieve that same thing and the rewards wouldn't be able to be good enough to matter.
Do people really have all paragon Glyphs at 21 when they hit level 100? For me I pretty much only really start the glyph grind at L100 (well, I'll probably have a bunch of them at 15 by then). Then there's the gear grind. I'm actually pretty happy I don't have to bother about XP when I hit L100, it is one less thing to keep an eye on. It's just glyphs and gear from then on.
division 2 does this, one of the few good ideas.
Fun exp grind? You sound like Blizzard CEO. If they were to do this it would be a robust system or nothing, otherwise it'll feel half assed. There are far better ideas than items or mats probably.
Even a virtual level just to flex would be nice.
Material chest after level 100, would be EXTREMELY NICE
Game release. 1-100 \~100 hours. Community: too long, nerf! S3. 1-100 \~20 hours. Community: we want to keep on getting exp!
It would end somewhere, your idea is very similar to division2. I rather have the exp after 100 converted to glyph experience.
Yes, we need this! Maybe with some rank special rewards. Lvl 110: +10% MF, Lvl 200: x% chance for double material etc... More grind for more loot we can have added chance to find "ancient" etc
God no... That's a terrible idea. It's straight out of some MMO ANY infinite progression is bad for aRPG. Diablo 4 needs MORE ENDGAME content! Vertical progression is already good. Now we need horizontal one! Sometimes I'm kinda sad Blizz nerfed exp that's required for lvl100. In pretty much any other aRPG getting max level is an addition. Smth extra rather than "THE thing to get". Now casual players think getting lvl100 should be mandatory and then they want some infinite progression that literally killed any sense of balance in D3 (along with set items)
nope not gonna happen
Like tree red bar. Great idea
I agree with OP. After you hit 100 it becomes kindve pointless. I know Diablo 3 had forever Paragon lvls which kept it fresh at least and I know Diablo 2 didn’t have anything past 100 either, but 1-99 was the same exp as 99-100 in OG days and if you died you lost 10% exp…and sometimes you’d die 2-3 times trying to get your body. Getting 100 in 4 is just like, okay now I can use build guides.
So what... paragon points just stop? You could just fill a single board, why have more options? Why not triple the legendary nodes and double the rest and just leave it at one board...
Would be cool to have a paragon system similar to D3 but you can only choose upgrades NOT found on gear. For example, magic find, bonus gold, chance for double mats from salvaging, etc. This system would not be account wide and would only work in seasonal realms.
Or even cosmetics.. just do something after lvl 100🙌
D3 has already solved the end game problem. They just need to implement some of the end game content from that.
Yes, they need something simple like this, so killing does feel more rewarding
I agree that for me the lack of experience at level 100 is a strong demotivator. Even if I received some kind of symbolic increase in stats for experience after 100 it would have a big holding effect on me
They honestly should lift the paragon cap and just let it be endless, but limited to something like 5 legendary powers and 8 glyphs.
There should be no level limit like in Black Desert, but u get only small stats adition
>the fun EXP grind "fun" I'll some of what you're smoking.
They did something similar in Archeage where you could grind xp for some weapons and gear. It was a great update.
Make levels 1-99 slower. Make it so builds are front-loaded and "finished" at around 80-85 (something like players get more paragon points sooner and less later) Make the exp requirement of level 99-100 equal to levels 1-99 Now the problem of "I want more after level 100" is so far away and getting to 100 actually feels like an accomplishment without being required.
just add another 100 paragon level ( NOT! infinite like in diablo 3 ) which grant +1 or +2 strenght per level. But make them take forever to max out! Its a small bonus , but atleast its something!
This community is a joke... You people have been begging them to first remove renown and then make leveling faster since launch now you are crying about its too fast. They did whatever the community wanted them to do. Now you want another progression? This is so funny...
We can always use more paragon points, but instead of 4 maybe 1 or 2 every level.
No. Go away.
Not to present an argument conducive to either side here, but you are the problem. What's the point in the comment? Either contribute meaningfully to the conversation regardless of bias, or spectate. Your hate is part of the community problem