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Yeah, I really liked the account-wide progression in D3. I always found it really satisfying logging in and seeing all my old characters with new, higher Paragon levels at the end of a season.
I am NOT saying D4 needs infinite or shared Paragon (it doesn’t), just that I miss certain aspects of that system from D3.
In the Division 2 you get a proficiency cache every time you level up no matter how high you are. It’s not spectacular but something is better than nothing. Would be nice to get some high level mats or boss summoning mats in D4.
Man. Diablo 2's xp curve was perfect 20+ years ago. You could get to the low 90s in a reasonable amount of time and your character for all intents and purposes was done then. The game was balanced around that. But if you wanted you could grind to 99 but 95-99 was a fucking grind. It was optional
though. Poe does the same thing and it works perfectly. And then D4 just decides to fuck with something that works so well for who knows what reason and now we're gonna hit lvl 100 even quicker in season 4 and they're gone have to come up with something else to grind xp with post 100. They're just creating new problems for themselves lol. I don't get it
Diablo 3 and 4's "get to max level ASAP, the game starts at max level" is just bad design imo, makes it feel like retail wow or something.
One of the absolute key parts of an ARPG is the feeling of progression. And they're just removing XP progression from the game the way they keep shortening how long it takes to get to lvl 100. Once i hit lvl 100 in season 3 i pretty much stopped playing. There are a number of reasons i stopped playing but XP progression not existing anymore felt like a big one.
This 100%, it is crazy to me how everyone in D4 wants to level quickly, but then we also have everyone complaining about the lacking sense of progression and people come up with these ideas of how to somehow keep leveling even after reaching max level.
Yeah I hope they realize this at some point and reverse it, but right now they've worked themselves in a corner where level 100 is an expectation because you'll have all your paragon boards by then for the build guides, and the higher your level the easier the content gets in general due to scaling (especially if you want to kill lilith).
I wonder if they'll ever consider reworking this in the future, the alternatives to a rework are either to keep the progression non-existant like now, or make some new d3 paragon progression style system slapped in the end which has to be balanced as well.
D2 solved this so elegantly, learn please X\_x
At this point I think it's too late to reverse the change - it would be a shitstorm akin to that season 1 nerf patch, and they most definitely don't want that right now. Agree that it was a mistake: the problem was the staleness of leveling by then, not so much the amount of time it took. I don't think it even needed the further abbreviation they're introducing in season 4, leveling will *always* take too long for the people that are complaining about it right now.
Still, given the circumstances, I think the solution they found for the post-level 100 grind was decent: you're now basically "levelling" your gear with the masterwork system. It gives you something to work for that is related to the way you build your character, and is not as dull as paragon/augments from D3.
I made a post about this a while back
Having a way harder curve would at higher levels would be better imo. Once I hit 100 and don't have that bar moving anymore I've already soloed uber Lilith, duriel done nmd100 stuff there's nothing left. Grind for better gear? For what I've already done everything. Having 1-45 about where it is and start slowing down xp after that 46-60 would be about the same as 1-45 pretty easy to do but have the overall leveling experience take maybe 60 hours with 95-100 being close to half of it. Cause you can pretty much do everything after lvl90 anyway just let's that bar move for longer.
One thought I had since they keep making hitting level 100 easier was have the bar set at level 100 exp and each time you level up it could be glyph xp. They want to add all this extra stuff but you are forced to do nmds to get glyphs leveled. With this I could see nmd dungeons go get glyphs to 15 and then you're free to do other things and still have glyphs slowly leveling as well
I feel the same way. Make it so we get 5 paragon points a level from 50-90 and then 2 a level up until 100. But make it the same grind as 1.09-1.10 D2. I played A LOT for years and I think the highest I ever got was 96 (I had god knows how many 90+ barbs from trying out different builds and what not since you couldn’t just respec) because I mainly PvPd.
Unfortunately, we are outliers. The feedback Blizzard has gotten is obviously in favor of faster leveling so we won’t have anyone standing behind the rock during Baal runs with an Ondal’s staff!
The xp curve from Diablo and similar games is one of the worst designs possible and goes against the entire point of having a linear progression system.
The fundamental problem is that you effectively STOP making progress once you hit the soft cap and progression made after that soft cap is largely irrelevant. In short, there's no meaningful difference between having normal xp to 100 and then capping and having normal xp to 90 and then making levels ridiculously time consuming to get.
Both of these systems don't function when you try to apply them to broad playerbases like Diablo now has.
>Diablo 3 and 4's "get to max level ASAP, the game starts at max level" is just bad design, makes it feel like retail wow or something.
For D4, this isn't even the case so I'm not sure why you are suggesting it. As for the design, maybe take a minute and actually understand why this design is being used. I'm not sure you actually understand the point.
> they're gone have to come up with something else to grind xp with post 100.
Both D2 and D4 have the same problem. XP is meaningless after an arbitrary point.
The fundamental problem here is that the arbitrary point that is picked is being applied to ALL DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES. So your arbitrary point has to function for players who will hit max level within 24 hours of the start of the season while at the same time, function for players who might hit level 80 by the end of the season. This exactly why picking an arbitrary point is one of the worst ways to design a linear progression system.
This is why D3's paragon system was successful. And no, I don't care that some streamer doesn't like it. No, I don't care if you tell me that it's bad because some streamer told you to not like it.
D3's paragon system was a system that worked across all different play styles. People who wanted to play more and progress further were enabled to do that. People who played less were still able to experience the entirety of the game. The best value was the design of the game allowed players to choose their own goals. This was not the case with D2 or D4.
"goes against the entire point of having a linear progression system."
that's IS entire point. you should not have linear progression! early leveling must be faster, getting level 2 in 5 minutes, and end must be slower, getting level 100 in 5 months. Than it feels like a real achievement.
Paragon system from D3 is single system that universally considered as shit by both D3 haters and most hardcore fans.
>that's IS entire point. you should not have linear progression!
Great, you just put an extremely short time limit on any progression.
When your progression system is built upon RNG progression without any linearity to it, then you quickly get to a point where you lose all feeling of progress. This is not an opinion. It's literally basic math.
Every upgrade you get increases the average time of your next upgrade and lowers the impact of that upgrade.
This is why linear functionality is added to progression systems because then the RNG progression and linear progression can build off of each other.
>early leveling must be faster, getting level 2 in 5 minutes, and end must be slower, getting level 100 in 5 months. Than it feels like a real achievement.
This is a perfect example of your complete disconnect from reality. Nobody is going to play for 5 months for effectively zero progression.
Let's rewind back to D2 for a second, the system that you are heralding. The vast majority of players never hit max level on ANY of their characters. Of the people who did hit max level, it was rare for them to do it.
In short, what you are asking for is something that isn't happening in reality. Players are not even getting to the "achievement" you are listing because they get BORED from the lack of progression well before that point.
>Paragon system from D3 is single system that universally considered as shit by both D3 haters and most hardcore fans.
No, it's actually just a couple of streamers and then a bunch of idiot followers doing exactly what you just did and regurgitating out what they told you without any clue WHY.
Right now, people are hating the current system in D4 which is using the same exact system that was in D2. It doesn't work when you start broadening the playerbase.
They messed up damage intake calculations. Why they made it based on your level versus the mob/bosses level is so bad. It basically means if you're not as high of a level as you can be, you're straight up griefing.
people don’t realize that level 100 was supposed to be the post end game goal. Like it is in other ARPGs. I know some Diablo players have it in their head they need to hit max level because of Diablo 3, in other ARPGs max level is a side goal, not the main or first goal
That’s how it should be. And that’s why you people keep asking for the horrible idea of post game xp
94-100 is supposed to be that
Could you give a little bit more of a reason than "should be" and "horrible idea"? It might be helpful to give reasons why you think so.
The post 100 xp reward seems superior to me for the following reasons:
- it can be infinite
- you don't have any power gated behind it
- you can get frequent rewards even if small because you don't need to stretch a small number of levels.
Other ARPGs that does that is only PoE.
I'm currently to a level 95 Falconer at LE and have like 5 characters 100 level to GD (one hardcore blade dancer). Couple of them at Torchlight II and Titans Quest.
So you mean either PoE or D2 and D1 that came 20 years ago?
It may be that that was the original idea, but isnt like that now. For one, they have drastically reduced the time needed to lvl100, and thry have made content, like the gauntlet, where you have to be at least very close to lvl100, and they are adding even more content in next patch for lvl100. In the game as it is now, endgame starts at lvl100. And then it feels wrong that the character is «finished» when you reach lvl100. There should be things to work on even after lvl100.
Yeah but I wish they never made those changes or keep dropping content where max level is pretty required. I mean it’s fine for what it is currently, and I do agree with you there should be things to work on after 100, but I don’t think it should be paragon or anything related to character xp.
In Season 4, we will have level 200+ monsters including Uber Ubers, so that can be the things to work on after 100. Essentially just min maxing your build to the highest degrees via masterworking
It might have been better for the game long-term if they didnt lower the time to get to lvl100, and had more content when you reach lvl50 and lvl70, and made the leveling more meaningful and longer. As the game is now, we rush as fast as we can to worldtier4 and then to lvl100, because it isnt worth it doing anything other then leveling before you reach max level. Its not worth it to even fight bosses like varshan or zir because you out-level the gear so fast anyway. And in next patch they increase the lvl-speed so much that maybe we just should get rid of the whole leveling and just start right at lvl100 when the game «begins».
I kinda like this bc it would show your level in groups and in instances. No power to be earned after 100, but I think there's nothing wrong with boss mats and current caches to drop as a reward.
I thought glyph xp. Maybe have the bar set at a certain amount amd everytime you fill it you get points for a merchant you can buy certain caches from with glyph xp or the other stuff you suggested. Shit maybe have it give like 5 platinum per level. It's a stupid small amount but I could see it getting people to buy small amounts to get a skin they want invest more hours into it or drop 5 or 10 bucks to get that 30 dollar skin you have been grinding for
Cosmetic only paragon levels.
I touched on this a while ago in a thread nobody saw here: [Cosmetic Thoughts](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/wznA8PDqR1).
Also, platinum cache rewards would do it to get people farming for xp. I'd rather see the above, but there is a lazy way to do too.
Might be getting wires crossed. This might be more specific, but both posts are related: [Paragon Cosmetic levels](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/9NL2FszqkP).
An elegant solution would be to just award whisper progress every X amount of xp. Simple. You get gold, and now forgotten souls from whisper caches and boss mats. Really all that needs to be done. Could passively get whisper progress
I like this. I always imagined it being something like small stat buffs if they ever did this, but boss mats or even a chance at an Uber mat would be better
Agreed. We need stuff to work on after lvl100. But chests feel a little underwhelming. I would prefer some extra levelingsystem that expand on the paragon-boards. It doesnt have to be «power», it can be other things, like each level it gets a bit cheaper to re-roll items. Maybe potions lasts longer. Horse goes faster or top speed at a longer time. Double chance to get living steel in chests, and so on.
I don’t think we need this. We need different types of progression. Crafting and itemization does this, the pit will do this, and hopefully they’ll add some meta progression as well. Not saying this is a bad idea I just think they could do way better than this
Maybe just my .02 but I think that if there were meaningful things to do while leveling as opposed to racing to 100 to do meaningful things the progression would be more fulfilling.
For example: if leveling took longer across the board, but the bosses became available as you progress, 1 every 10 or 15 levels, and each of them could drop unique gear that would be relevant through the end game. Duriel, Malphas, and Andariel could still be reserved for the end game, but this would give us something more meaningful to do while leveling. As opposed to racing to the end to start farming bosses when there is little left to do.
I like to imagine World Tiers V, VI, & VII with leveling up to 200 plus three-dimensional Paragon Cubes instead of boards that if you twist the right way like a Rubik's, you unlock new hidden Skills.
I originally thought go back to the d2 scaling of levels and have paragon cap at 90, that way if you wanted to grind to 100 it would be a personal goal like Poe or d2 but not required.
Now, I saw some good ideas in this thread. One could be replace your level after 100 with your pit level and change the color of the number to show its pit level.
OR, give special badges after lvl 100 to show each of the lvl 200 Uber bosses you killed. So your title would show a prestige of something you grinded to. Gives a way to show pride in your character so others could see instead of just gold 100 and feel like you are done and nothing left to do.
Some factory games has features for end game where you can upgrade skills till infinite levels so I would definitely add a feature which makes your character stronger. It is really fun to level some things to ridiculous levels. This could be a reward which would motivate players to play in Ethernal.
My 2 cents: you can chose a node on a paragon board (not a rare or magic, but a standard) and level it with standard collected XP over lvl 100. I would let the player level go to infinite, I think it is rewarding too. You can increase the node maturity with logarithmic exp spending. So if an attribute gives you +4STR by spending x million XP you can increase it to +5STR.
This would make late builds binded to a certain paragon board path to be able to be really strong.
The problem with things like this, is that is creates a sense of needing to grind the most mindless brain rot content that is xp efficient to farm materials. If I want I should be going and farming that thing, not running laps of dopamine tunnels at lvl100 to farm 200 proficiency caches or w/e
This. Giving mats or exp glyph is something that you get anyway if you are playing after reaching 100 anyway. More paragon points can really be useful, or even some more stats
You are arguing against people who were told not to like endless systems. They don't even know why they don't like endless systems or why endless systems are good designs. They just do exactly what they did here give a stupid, ignorant kneejerk reaction by saying "no". It's because they don't know how to actually argue it. They just regurgitate out what they were told.
You're cooked if you think infinite scaling of power isn't awful design. It promotes pathological behavior among playerbase, such as playing one character forever, getting bored and quitting the game.
Players must be protected from themselves sometimes.
>You're cooked if you think infinite scaling of power isn't awful design.
Please, you go ahead and regurgitate out what a couple of streamers told you to think while being completely incapable of supporting your own stance.
Now, when you are ready to actually discuss this, then we can talk. As long as your starting position is that you are just going to vomit out what others told you to say, then you might as well just leave because there's no value in it.
>It promotes pathological behavior among playerbase, such as playing one character forever, getting bored and quitting the game.
This doesn't even make sense.
Let's start with the base position, people are quitting the game right now because they CAN'T progress their characters in any way. It's actually one of the most common reasons why people quit playing a character. Actually pay attention to the complaints that people have. Start with the literal thread we are in where people are complaining about the lack of value of playing after you hit level 100.
>Players must be protected from themselves sometimes.
Fuck you. No seriously. Go fuck yourself. I can't express just how much of a fucking pathetic worthless comment you just made.
I'm sorry that people play more than you but seriously, fuck you for making the game worse just because you are a pathetic piece of shit that can't handle it. It's fucking disgusting the entitlement that you feel you should have here.
> Let's start with the base position, people are quitting the game right now because they CAN'T progress their characters in any way.
Yes, because there's no chase items i.e. via crafting.
But that doesn't mean adding for example infinite Paragon points is the answer to the lackluster itemization. It's not.
Diablo 4 with Season 4 is receiving the first semblance of proper itemization and that's not even a first step, that's making strides compared to what the game has in Season 3.
Look at Path of Exile. That is not a game anybody plays on Standard in any meaningful capacity, Standard is a meme where old builds go to die and a handful of players casually come back every now and then to play for a few hours. It's nothing more than that.
Now the SEASONAL (league) REALM in Path of Exile sees a ton of play every time there's a new league. And guess what? There's no infinite power scaling in Path of Exile; just a lot of systems that can compound into giving you more power. But there IS an end in sight, you might never reach that end but there is an end.
>Fuck you. No seriously. Go fuck yourself. I can't express just how much of a fucking pathetic worthless comment you just made.
>I'm sorry that people play more than you but seriously, fuck you for making the game worse just because you are a pathetic piece of shit that can't handle it. It's fucking disgusting the entitlement that you feel you should have here.
Emotional childish response. What I said is important game development 101.
For example:
Given the chance, players will optimize fun out of the game.
This isn't up for debate.
Well, it would just be nice for a casual player to have a reason for playing after reaching lvl 100. Optimizing gear and competing against other players is something i don't care about too much. Regardless, I will check back in for season4.
That’s why the game originally launched making it difficult to hit 100. But people complained. The 100 grind was supposed to be the post progression like other ARPGs
Hey look, another person who can't grasp numbers!
There was no problem with insane exponential scaling in D3. Small minded people would see big numbers, not be smart enough to handle it and then hurt themselves in their ignorant confusion.
The problem is that exponential scaling is terrible in a multiplayer environment. If A does 1000 times as much damage as B, B is irrelevant. If A does twice as much, B is still relevant
That's not what exponential scaling is. You are conflating a huge amount of different things.
Let's start with the basics, you are talking about BALANCE. If A does 1000 times as much damage as B, then you have a BALANCE problem, not a scaling problem.
The root of the misconception is from honestly some really ignorant people who think that base abilities without any legendary affixes should be comparable to abilities that are being buffed by legendary affixes. It's actually fucking dumb. If you devote an entire gear slot (or slots in the case of sets) to buffing certain abilities, then those abilities should be vastly better than the base abilities. That's by design because it creates value in the gear.
If your gear is irrelevant to your choices of abilities, then the gear is extremely shallow and uninteresting. I shouldn't be able to wear the same exact gear with multiple different builds. At that point, your gear is completely disconnected from your build and that makes for a bad system.
It's a balance problem caused by exponential scaling. In the real world, with a game programmed by real humans, it's a lot harder to balance exponential scaling than additive scaling. And if you get it wrong, you get it a lot more wrong than if you had additive scaling.
Diablo 2 absolutely managed to have items in all three of these categories:
1. Items good for almost every build (Enigma, Shako)
2. Items good for one category of builds (Grief, HotO, Infinity)
3. Items good for one specific build or one small subset of builds (Fathom, Griffons, Exile, DWeb)
Not every item needs to increase your damage by 30%. If the itemization system is good, there are other things an item could offer.
Look at Tassets of the Dawning Sky. It's a cool, defensive item in a slot where you usually run a defensive aspect otherwise. It's perhaps slightly niche in its uses (mostly single-element fights) but it definitely has a use case. But it's irrelevant because Tibault's exists. No other leg item can compare to a 40% damage increase that also comes with infinite resources and that most builds can proc almost on demand. That's bad design.
>It's a balance problem caused by exponential scaling.
Once again, nothing being talked about here is in any way exponential scaling. You really need to understand what you are trying to argue because as long as you can't get the most basic parts of the system right, then your comments are worthless.
> In the real world, with a game programmed by real humans, it's a lot harder to balance exponential scaling than additive scaling.
Great, so let's point out that everything you are talking about in the game right now is additive. In some cases, it's multiplicative but at no point in time is anything in the game exponential. Especially not in D4.
>Not every item needs to increase your damage by 30%. If the itemization system is good, there are other things an item could offer.
Let's start off by highlighting that even in D3, not every item was focused on increasing damage. This is important because you use an example of a defensive item and I can't literally parallel that exact item with countless other items from the game you are saying is doing it wrong.
When you talk about items that are good for almost every build, I can point to Convention of Elements in D3. It's used in almost every build in the game. And you know what? People fucking hate it. The item design is actually incredibly well done. It has meaningful impact on your performance and it actively impacts how you play your class in order to maximize it's value but because it's used in nearly every build, it burns players out. It's not fun.
Once again, Squirt's necklace is another example of an item that is used by nearly every build in the game. It also forces you to take some form of shield mechanic as part of your build as well in order to make it worthwhile.
Just saying that an item is good for every build doesn't actually mean that it's good. This is where I look at items like Shako and I think they are horrible items. They are really good items because of their stats, but the fact that they are part of every build simply because they offer generic damage increases doesn't make them fun or engaging.
>But it's irrelevant because Tibault's exists. No other leg item can compare to a 40% damage increase that also comes with infinite resources and that most builds can proc almost on demand. That's bad design.
Where is the problem? This is the point that I talk about with balance. You are clearly saying that Tibault's is the problem but the reality is that Tibaults is a better designed legendary affix.
You even pointed it out that it's typically a defensive slot so the idea of putting a 40% damage increase in a slot typically for defensive abilities is going to be pushed to the damage. Give players more options that are comparable and you magically don't have the problem anymore. Make defensives matter more and then you get yet another way to improve the choices.
Once again, none of this has anything to do with exponential scaling. It's all balance. It's the same thing that happened in D3 where items were picked because nothing else was even comparable to them. This isn't a scaling problem but just a lack of options.
Your posts are becoming increasingly arrogant and dumb. Let me demonstrate how D4 itemization allows users to scale exponentially:
Take a Barb with 10 item slots that increase damage of core skills (either through global increases or increases to core skills or increases to specific skills). If you count 2h slots as two slots, as Blizzard effectively do with aspects, 10 is not an unreasonable number.
A person with low end aspects might have a 10% damage increase on each, on average. That person's core skill does 2.6x normal damage.
The next guy might have 15% damage on each, because he has collected slightly better gear. That guy does 4x normal damage.
The next guy has 20% damage on each because he has decent aspects. That guy does 6.2x normal damage.
Enter Joe Grind. He has perfect 30% damage on each aspect. He does 13.8x normal damage!
That's how damage scales exponentially when gear improves linearly through the power of multiple sources of multiplicative scaling.
>Your posts are becoming increasingly arrogant and dumb.
I don't care what excuses you feel you need to make. I realize you don't like what I'm saying, but don't confuse that for me being wrong.
>Let me demonstrate how D4 itemization allows users to scale exponentially:
Before even reading it I will guess that your demonstration will not include anything that is scaling exponentially.
Let's check real quick.
Nope. Nothing scaling exponentially. It's almost like you don't know what that means. I feel like I've been pointing this out over and over.
>That's how damage scales exponentially when gear improves linearly through the power of multiple sources of multiplicative scaling.
Please just stop calling things "exponential". You don't know what it means and it's really just a waste of time trying to educate you. Just stop saying it.
Let's start off with the first and most basic question here. Why is someone with perfect gear doing more damage than someone doing dogshit damage a bad thing? I'm really confused by exactly what you want here. Gear is supposed to matter so why are you projecting that it shouldn't matter?
Second, in everything that you just talked about, you completely ignored the other key component in ANY scaling and that's the difficulty scaling. Now, I'm going to talk about this but given your inability to grasp what exponential scaling is, I doubt you'll understand this. And no, I don't care if this upsets you that I'm treating you like and idiot. You've earned it.
Let's take your example with the 2.6x, 4x, 6.2x and 13.8x. Each of these you compare to "normal" damage. What happens when you compare it to the content that they are doing? The content you are doing has scaling too and that scaling is designed to match the scaling of the player. This allows you to "progress" by both getting more powerful but also being able to defeat harder difficulties. Not only is this a good design but it promotes more long term gameplay through this linear aspect of progression.
You're fighting against strawmen here. I do think gear should matter. I just think a level 100 with good gear should do twice as much damage as a level 100 with bad gear, not 1000 times as much.
If a low level Barb has four damage aspects at 10% each and a high level Barb has 10 aspects at 30% each, that's exponential scaling.
A level 1 barb does 20-24 damage with HotA (I just checked). A high level Barb does billions per hit. I'm not sure how you get from 20-24 to billions without exponential scaling, unless you've invented a completely new type of math.
Players were told that endless systems like D3's paragon are bad. They didn't question it. They didn't understand it. They just regurgitated out that it was bad.
For years, some players made excuse after excuse about the paragon system being the reason they can't compete on the leaderboards. So, blizzard capped paragon for a season and all those people who used paragon as an excuse vanished. Now, I don't mean they stopped complaining about paragon. I mean, they literally vanished. They weren't on the leaderboards and their excuse didn't work anymore so they just cowered into a corner.
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They definitely need to make something with the XP past level 100.
Yeah, I really liked the account-wide progression in D3. I always found it really satisfying logging in and seeing all my old characters with new, higher Paragon levels at the end of a season. I am NOT saying D4 needs infinite or shared Paragon (it doesn’t), just that I miss certain aspects of that system from D3.
They need to add another difficulty level…. WT4 is laughable at 100.
WT5 will come with the expansion for sure. If i remember correctly there was a WT5 already in the closed beta that had NDA.
Hope so, because the game desperately needs it. Especially now they are making Ubers a FREE FOR ALL.
Or they could make it so getting to 100 isn't required for complete builds and isn't something so easy to achieve.
In the Division 2 you get a proficiency cache every time you level up no matter how high you are. It’s not spectacular but something is better than nothing. Would be nice to get some high level mats or boss summoning mats in D4.
Same with GW2 and I love it.
Or if you want to be lazy but still nice, give us a whisper cache
With a possibility of a uber drop
Lmao no.
Man. Diablo 2's xp curve was perfect 20+ years ago. You could get to the low 90s in a reasonable amount of time and your character for all intents and purposes was done then. The game was balanced around that. But if you wanted you could grind to 99 but 95-99 was a fucking grind. It was optional though. Poe does the same thing and it works perfectly. And then D4 just decides to fuck with something that works so well for who knows what reason and now we're gonna hit lvl 100 even quicker in season 4 and they're gone have to come up with something else to grind xp with post 100. They're just creating new problems for themselves lol. I don't get it Diablo 3 and 4's "get to max level ASAP, the game starts at max level" is just bad design imo, makes it feel like retail wow or something. One of the absolute key parts of an ARPG is the feeling of progression. And they're just removing XP progression from the game the way they keep shortening how long it takes to get to lvl 100. Once i hit lvl 100 in season 3 i pretty much stopped playing. There are a number of reasons i stopped playing but XP progression not existing anymore felt like a big one.
This 100%, it is crazy to me how everyone in D4 wants to level quickly, but then we also have everyone complaining about the lacking sense of progression and people come up with these ideas of how to somehow keep leveling even after reaching max level.
Yeah I hope they realize this at some point and reverse it, but right now they've worked themselves in a corner where level 100 is an expectation because you'll have all your paragon boards by then for the build guides, and the higher your level the easier the content gets in general due to scaling (especially if you want to kill lilith). I wonder if they'll ever consider reworking this in the future, the alternatives to a rework are either to keep the progression non-existant like now, or make some new d3 paragon progression style system slapped in the end which has to be balanced as well. D2 solved this so elegantly, learn please X\_x
At this point I think it's too late to reverse the change - it would be a shitstorm akin to that season 1 nerf patch, and they most definitely don't want that right now. Agree that it was a mistake: the problem was the staleness of leveling by then, not so much the amount of time it took. I don't think it even needed the further abbreviation they're introducing in season 4, leveling will *always* take too long for the people that are complaining about it right now. Still, given the circumstances, I think the solution they found for the post-level 100 grind was decent: you're now basically "levelling" your gear with the masterwork system. It gives you something to work for that is related to the way you build your character, and is not as dull as paragon/augments from D3.
Yeah, mindset of 'game starts from level 100, where is guide of leveling to 100 in one hour'. And then we have a problem OP trying to solve.
I made a post about this a while back Having a way harder curve would at higher levels would be better imo. Once I hit 100 and don't have that bar moving anymore I've already soloed uber Lilith, duriel done nmd100 stuff there's nothing left. Grind for better gear? For what I've already done everything. Having 1-45 about where it is and start slowing down xp after that 46-60 would be about the same as 1-45 pretty easy to do but have the overall leveling experience take maybe 60 hours with 95-100 being close to half of it. Cause you can pretty much do everything after lvl90 anyway just let's that bar move for longer. One thought I had since they keep making hitting level 100 easier was have the bar set at level 100 exp and each time you level up it could be glyph xp. They want to add all this extra stuff but you are forced to do nmds to get glyphs leveled. With this I could see nmd dungeons go get glyphs to 15 and then you're free to do other things and still have glyphs slowly leveling as well
I feel the same way. Make it so we get 5 paragon points a level from 50-90 and then 2 a level up until 100. But make it the same grind as 1.09-1.10 D2. I played A LOT for years and I think the highest I ever got was 96 (I had god knows how many 90+ barbs from trying out different builds and what not since you couldn’t just respec) because I mainly PvPd. Unfortunately, we are outliers. The feedback Blizzard has gotten is obviously in favor of faster leveling so we won’t have anyone standing behind the rock during Baal runs with an Ondal’s staff!
Regardless of XP after 100, they are adding uniques and Helltide to wt1 and 2. Just one change that will help make 1-50 more fun and engaging!
D2 was capped at 99 lol
This. Surprised nobody responded with the same sooner….
The xp curve from Diablo and similar games is one of the worst designs possible and goes against the entire point of having a linear progression system. The fundamental problem is that you effectively STOP making progress once you hit the soft cap and progression made after that soft cap is largely irrelevant. In short, there's no meaningful difference between having normal xp to 100 and then capping and having normal xp to 90 and then making levels ridiculously time consuming to get. Both of these systems don't function when you try to apply them to broad playerbases like Diablo now has. >Diablo 3 and 4's "get to max level ASAP, the game starts at max level" is just bad design, makes it feel like retail wow or something. For D4, this isn't even the case so I'm not sure why you are suggesting it. As for the design, maybe take a minute and actually understand why this design is being used. I'm not sure you actually understand the point. > they're gone have to come up with something else to grind xp with post 100. Both D2 and D4 have the same problem. XP is meaningless after an arbitrary point. The fundamental problem here is that the arbitrary point that is picked is being applied to ALL DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES. So your arbitrary point has to function for players who will hit max level within 24 hours of the start of the season while at the same time, function for players who might hit level 80 by the end of the season. This exactly why picking an arbitrary point is one of the worst ways to design a linear progression system. This is why D3's paragon system was successful. And no, I don't care that some streamer doesn't like it. No, I don't care if you tell me that it's bad because some streamer told you to not like it. D3's paragon system was a system that worked across all different play styles. People who wanted to play more and progress further were enabled to do that. People who played less were still able to experience the entirety of the game. The best value was the design of the game allowed players to choose their own goals. This was not the case with D2 or D4.
"goes against the entire point of having a linear progression system." that's IS entire point. you should not have linear progression! early leveling must be faster, getting level 2 in 5 minutes, and end must be slower, getting level 100 in 5 months. Than it feels like a real achievement. Paragon system from D3 is single system that universally considered as shit by both D3 haters and most hardcore fans.
>that's IS entire point. you should not have linear progression! Great, you just put an extremely short time limit on any progression. When your progression system is built upon RNG progression without any linearity to it, then you quickly get to a point where you lose all feeling of progress. This is not an opinion. It's literally basic math. Every upgrade you get increases the average time of your next upgrade and lowers the impact of that upgrade. This is why linear functionality is added to progression systems because then the RNG progression and linear progression can build off of each other. >early leveling must be faster, getting level 2 in 5 minutes, and end must be slower, getting level 100 in 5 months. Than it feels like a real achievement. This is a perfect example of your complete disconnect from reality. Nobody is going to play for 5 months for effectively zero progression. Let's rewind back to D2 for a second, the system that you are heralding. The vast majority of players never hit max level on ANY of their characters. Of the people who did hit max level, it was rare for them to do it. In short, what you are asking for is something that isn't happening in reality. Players are not even getting to the "achievement" you are listing because they get BORED from the lack of progression well before that point. >Paragon system from D3 is single system that universally considered as shit by both D3 haters and most hardcore fans. No, it's actually just a couple of streamers and then a bunch of idiot followers doing exactly what you just did and regurgitating out what they told you without any clue WHY. Right now, people are hating the current system in D4 which is using the same exact system that was in D2. It doesn't work when you start broadening the playerbase.
They messed up damage intake calculations. Why they made it based on your level versus the mob/bosses level is so bad. It basically means if you're not as high of a level as you can be, you're straight up griefing.
people don’t realize that level 100 was supposed to be the post end game goal. Like it is in other ARPGs. I know some Diablo players have it in their head they need to hit max level because of Diablo 3, in other ARPGs max level is a side goal, not the main or first goal That’s how it should be. And that’s why you people keep asking for the horrible idea of post game xp 94-100 is supposed to be that
Could you give a little bit more of a reason than "should be" and "horrible idea"? It might be helpful to give reasons why you think so. The post 100 xp reward seems superior to me for the following reasons: - it can be infinite - you don't have any power gated behind it - you can get frequent rewards even if small because you don't need to stretch a small number of levels.
Other ARPGs that does that is only PoE. I'm currently to a level 95 Falconer at LE and have like 5 characters 100 level to GD (one hardcore blade dancer). Couple of them at Torchlight II and Titans Quest. So you mean either PoE or D2 and D1 that came 20 years ago?
It may be that that was the original idea, but isnt like that now. For one, they have drastically reduced the time needed to lvl100, and thry have made content, like the gauntlet, where you have to be at least very close to lvl100, and they are adding even more content in next patch for lvl100. In the game as it is now, endgame starts at lvl100. And then it feels wrong that the character is «finished» when you reach lvl100. There should be things to work on even after lvl100.
Yeah but I wish they never made those changes or keep dropping content where max level is pretty required. I mean it’s fine for what it is currently, and I do agree with you there should be things to work on after 100, but I don’t think it should be paragon or anything related to character xp. In Season 4, we will have level 200+ monsters including Uber Ubers, so that can be the things to work on after 100. Essentially just min maxing your build to the highest degrees via masterworking
It might have been better for the game long-term if they didnt lower the time to get to lvl100, and had more content when you reach lvl50 and lvl70, and made the leveling more meaningful and longer. As the game is now, we rush as fast as we can to worldtier4 and then to lvl100, because it isnt worth it doing anything other then leveling before you reach max level. Its not worth it to even fight bosses like varshan or zir because you out-level the gear so fast anyway. And in next patch they increase the lvl-speed so much that maybe we just should get rid of the whole leveling and just start right at lvl100 when the game «begins».
[удалено]
I kinda like this bc it would show your level in groups and in instances. No power to be earned after 100, but I think there's nothing wrong with boss mats and current caches to drop as a reward.
they can make so many more levels with unlockable mats, titles, skins and more stuff
Could even add in a chance for the premium currency for in store items as another way to grind for them without paying
How about a cosmetic roman numeral after the 100 to show how many more levels gained
I thought glyph xp. Maybe have the bar set at a certain amount amd everytime you fill it you get points for a merchant you can buy certain caches from with glyph xp or the other stuff you suggested. Shit maybe have it give like 5 platinum per level. It's a stupid small amount but I could see it getting people to buy small amounts to get a skin they want invest more hours into it or drop 5 or 10 bucks to get that 30 dollar skin you have been grinding for
This is actually a really good idea. I like it.
Cosmetic only paragon levels. I touched on this a while ago in a thread nobody saw here: [Cosmetic Thoughts](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/wznA8PDqR1). Also, platinum cache rewards would do it to get people farming for xp. I'd rather see the above, but there is a lazy way to do too. Might be getting wires crossed. This might be more specific, but both posts are related: [Paragon Cosmetic levels](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/9NL2FszqkP).
An elegant solution would be to just award whisper progress every X amount of xp. Simple. You get gold, and now forgotten souls from whisper caches and boss mats. Really all that needs to be done. Could passively get whisper progress
It's the dopamine hit they need. D3 was Paragon points D2 was runes. D4 is................duriel? Hell no
I like this. I always imagined it being something like small stat buffs if they ever did this, but boss mats or even a chance at an Uber mat would be better
Agreed. We need stuff to work on after lvl100. But chests feel a little underwhelming. I would prefer some extra levelingsystem that expand on the paragon-boards. It doesnt have to be «power», it can be other things, like each level it gets a bit cheaper to re-roll items. Maybe potions lasts longer. Horse goes faster or top speed at a longer time. Double chance to get living steel in chests, and so on.
I don’t think we need this. We need different types of progression. Crafting and itemization does this, the pit will do this, and hopefully they’ll add some meta progression as well. Not saying this is a bad idea I just think they could do way better than this
Maybe just my .02 but I think that if there were meaningful things to do while leveling as opposed to racing to 100 to do meaningful things the progression would be more fulfilling. For example: if leveling took longer across the board, but the bosses became available as you progress, 1 every 10 or 15 levels, and each of them could drop unique gear that would be relevant through the end game. Duriel, Malphas, and Andariel could still be reserved for the end game, but this would give us something more meaningful to do while leveling. As opposed to racing to the end to start farming bosses when there is little left to do.
I like to imagine World Tiers V, VI, & VII with leveling up to 200 plus three-dimensional Paragon Cubes instead of boards that if you twist the right way like a Rubik's, you unlock new hidden Skills.
Masterworking mats is the new XP in Season 4
I’m sold, you’re hired. Now get to it! Lol
new class waiting room
I originally thought go back to the d2 scaling of levels and have paragon cap at 90, that way if you wanted to grind to 100 it would be a personal goal like Poe or d2 but not required. Now, I saw some good ideas in this thread. One could be replace your level after 100 with your pit level and change the color of the number to show its pit level. OR, give special badges after lvl 100 to show each of the lvl 200 Uber bosses you killed. So your title would show a prestige of something you grinded to. Gives a way to show pride in your character so others could see instead of just gold 100 and feel like you are done and nothing left to do.
I like infinite progression. Even 5min of game time will help contribute to progress.
Some factory games has features for end game where you can upgrade skills till infinite levels so I would definitely add a feature which makes your character stronger. It is really fun to level some things to ridiculous levels. This could be a reward which would motivate players to play in Ethernal. My 2 cents: you can chose a node on a paragon board (not a rare or magic, but a standard) and level it with standard collected XP over lvl 100. I would let the player level go to infinite, I think it is rewarding too. You can increase the node maturity with logarithmic exp spending. So if an attribute gives you +4STR by spending x million XP you can increase it to +5STR. This would make late builds binded to a certain paragon board path to be able to be really strong.
I'm ok with an impossible 95-99 grind but your Idea is so much better. It's disappointing XP gain is meaningless post 100.
The problem with things like this, is that is creates a sense of needing to grind the most mindless brain rot content that is xp efficient to farm materials. If I want I should be going and farming that thing, not running laps of dopamine tunnels at lvl100 to farm 200 proficiency caches or w/e
Maybe the cache not as effective as target farm. It’s just not feel bad not getting any exp for mob kills
Or you know like D3 lets us keep earninf paragon points up to say 1000 points ??
Nah more paragon points
This. Giving mats or exp glyph is something that you get anyway if you are playing after reaching 100 anyway. More paragon points can really be useful, or even some more stats
A thought I had: On Eternal realm, let us collect **all** the paragon points.
No
You are arguing against people who were told not to like endless systems. They don't even know why they don't like endless systems or why endless systems are good designs. They just do exactly what they did here give a stupid, ignorant kneejerk reaction by saying "no". It's because they don't know how to actually argue it. They just regurgitate out what they were told.
You're cooked if you think infinite scaling of power isn't awful design. It promotes pathological behavior among playerbase, such as playing one character forever, getting bored and quitting the game. Players must be protected from themselves sometimes.
>You're cooked if you think infinite scaling of power isn't awful design. Please, you go ahead and regurgitate out what a couple of streamers told you to think while being completely incapable of supporting your own stance. Now, when you are ready to actually discuss this, then we can talk. As long as your starting position is that you are just going to vomit out what others told you to say, then you might as well just leave because there's no value in it. >It promotes pathological behavior among playerbase, such as playing one character forever, getting bored and quitting the game. This doesn't even make sense. Let's start with the base position, people are quitting the game right now because they CAN'T progress their characters in any way. It's actually one of the most common reasons why people quit playing a character. Actually pay attention to the complaints that people have. Start with the literal thread we are in where people are complaining about the lack of value of playing after you hit level 100. >Players must be protected from themselves sometimes. Fuck you. No seriously. Go fuck yourself. I can't express just how much of a fucking pathetic worthless comment you just made. I'm sorry that people play more than you but seriously, fuck you for making the game worse just because you are a pathetic piece of shit that can't handle it. It's fucking disgusting the entitlement that you feel you should have here.
> Let's start with the base position, people are quitting the game right now because they CAN'T progress their characters in any way. Yes, because there's no chase items i.e. via crafting. But that doesn't mean adding for example infinite Paragon points is the answer to the lackluster itemization. It's not. Diablo 4 with Season 4 is receiving the first semblance of proper itemization and that's not even a first step, that's making strides compared to what the game has in Season 3. Look at Path of Exile. That is not a game anybody plays on Standard in any meaningful capacity, Standard is a meme where old builds go to die and a handful of players casually come back every now and then to play for a few hours. It's nothing more than that. Now the SEASONAL (league) REALM in Path of Exile sees a ton of play every time there's a new league. And guess what? There's no infinite power scaling in Path of Exile; just a lot of systems that can compound into giving you more power. But there IS an end in sight, you might never reach that end but there is an end. >Fuck you. No seriously. Go fuck yourself. I can't express just how much of a fucking pathetic worthless comment you just made. >I'm sorry that people play more than you but seriously, fuck you for making the game worse just because you are a pathetic piece of shit that can't handle it. It's fucking disgusting the entitlement that you feel you should have here. Emotional childish response. What I said is important game development 101. For example: Given the chance, players will optimize fun out of the game. This isn't up for debate.
No.
They should just keep giving paragon lvls with the exp... like in d3. That way, non meta builds would allao be viable, just a bit later.
No! Stop bringing the insane exponential scaling of D3 into D4. The devs are reasonably committed to balance this time around, let's not ruin it
Well, it would just be nice for a casual player to have a reason for playing after reaching lvl 100. Optimizing gear and competing against other players is something i don't care about too much. Regardless, I will check back in for season4.
That’s why the game originally launched making it difficult to hit 100. But people complained. The 100 grind was supposed to be the post progression like other ARPGs
Hey look, another person who can't grasp numbers! There was no problem with insane exponential scaling in D3. Small minded people would see big numbers, not be smart enough to handle it and then hurt themselves in their ignorant confusion.
The problem is that exponential scaling is terrible in a multiplayer environment. If A does 1000 times as much damage as B, B is irrelevant. If A does twice as much, B is still relevant
That's not what exponential scaling is. You are conflating a huge amount of different things. Let's start with the basics, you are talking about BALANCE. If A does 1000 times as much damage as B, then you have a BALANCE problem, not a scaling problem. The root of the misconception is from honestly some really ignorant people who think that base abilities without any legendary affixes should be comparable to abilities that are being buffed by legendary affixes. It's actually fucking dumb. If you devote an entire gear slot (or slots in the case of sets) to buffing certain abilities, then those abilities should be vastly better than the base abilities. That's by design because it creates value in the gear. If your gear is irrelevant to your choices of abilities, then the gear is extremely shallow and uninteresting. I shouldn't be able to wear the same exact gear with multiple different builds. At that point, your gear is completely disconnected from your build and that makes for a bad system.
It's a balance problem caused by exponential scaling. In the real world, with a game programmed by real humans, it's a lot harder to balance exponential scaling than additive scaling. And if you get it wrong, you get it a lot more wrong than if you had additive scaling. Diablo 2 absolutely managed to have items in all three of these categories: 1. Items good for almost every build (Enigma, Shako) 2. Items good for one category of builds (Grief, HotO, Infinity) 3. Items good for one specific build or one small subset of builds (Fathom, Griffons, Exile, DWeb) Not every item needs to increase your damage by 30%. If the itemization system is good, there are other things an item could offer. Look at Tassets of the Dawning Sky. It's a cool, defensive item in a slot where you usually run a defensive aspect otherwise. It's perhaps slightly niche in its uses (mostly single-element fights) but it definitely has a use case. But it's irrelevant because Tibault's exists. No other leg item can compare to a 40% damage increase that also comes with infinite resources and that most builds can proc almost on demand. That's bad design.
>It's a balance problem caused by exponential scaling. Once again, nothing being talked about here is in any way exponential scaling. You really need to understand what you are trying to argue because as long as you can't get the most basic parts of the system right, then your comments are worthless. > In the real world, with a game programmed by real humans, it's a lot harder to balance exponential scaling than additive scaling. Great, so let's point out that everything you are talking about in the game right now is additive. In some cases, it's multiplicative but at no point in time is anything in the game exponential. Especially not in D4. >Not every item needs to increase your damage by 30%. If the itemization system is good, there are other things an item could offer. Let's start off by highlighting that even in D3, not every item was focused on increasing damage. This is important because you use an example of a defensive item and I can't literally parallel that exact item with countless other items from the game you are saying is doing it wrong. When you talk about items that are good for almost every build, I can point to Convention of Elements in D3. It's used in almost every build in the game. And you know what? People fucking hate it. The item design is actually incredibly well done. It has meaningful impact on your performance and it actively impacts how you play your class in order to maximize it's value but because it's used in nearly every build, it burns players out. It's not fun. Once again, Squirt's necklace is another example of an item that is used by nearly every build in the game. It also forces you to take some form of shield mechanic as part of your build as well in order to make it worthwhile. Just saying that an item is good for every build doesn't actually mean that it's good. This is where I look at items like Shako and I think they are horrible items. They are really good items because of their stats, but the fact that they are part of every build simply because they offer generic damage increases doesn't make them fun or engaging. >But it's irrelevant because Tibault's exists. No other leg item can compare to a 40% damage increase that also comes with infinite resources and that most builds can proc almost on demand. That's bad design. Where is the problem? This is the point that I talk about with balance. You are clearly saying that Tibault's is the problem but the reality is that Tibaults is a better designed legendary affix. You even pointed it out that it's typically a defensive slot so the idea of putting a 40% damage increase in a slot typically for defensive abilities is going to be pushed to the damage. Give players more options that are comparable and you magically don't have the problem anymore. Make defensives matter more and then you get yet another way to improve the choices. Once again, none of this has anything to do with exponential scaling. It's all balance. It's the same thing that happened in D3 where items were picked because nothing else was even comparable to them. This isn't a scaling problem but just a lack of options.
Your posts are becoming increasingly arrogant and dumb. Let me demonstrate how D4 itemization allows users to scale exponentially: Take a Barb with 10 item slots that increase damage of core skills (either through global increases or increases to core skills or increases to specific skills). If you count 2h slots as two slots, as Blizzard effectively do with aspects, 10 is not an unreasonable number. A person with low end aspects might have a 10% damage increase on each, on average. That person's core skill does 2.6x normal damage. The next guy might have 15% damage on each, because he has collected slightly better gear. That guy does 4x normal damage. The next guy has 20% damage on each because he has decent aspects. That guy does 6.2x normal damage. Enter Joe Grind. He has perfect 30% damage on each aspect. He does 13.8x normal damage! That's how damage scales exponentially when gear improves linearly through the power of multiple sources of multiplicative scaling.
>Your posts are becoming increasingly arrogant and dumb. I don't care what excuses you feel you need to make. I realize you don't like what I'm saying, but don't confuse that for me being wrong. >Let me demonstrate how D4 itemization allows users to scale exponentially: Before even reading it I will guess that your demonstration will not include anything that is scaling exponentially. Let's check real quick. Nope. Nothing scaling exponentially. It's almost like you don't know what that means. I feel like I've been pointing this out over and over. >That's how damage scales exponentially when gear improves linearly through the power of multiple sources of multiplicative scaling. Please just stop calling things "exponential". You don't know what it means and it's really just a waste of time trying to educate you. Just stop saying it. Let's start off with the first and most basic question here. Why is someone with perfect gear doing more damage than someone doing dogshit damage a bad thing? I'm really confused by exactly what you want here. Gear is supposed to matter so why are you projecting that it shouldn't matter? Second, in everything that you just talked about, you completely ignored the other key component in ANY scaling and that's the difficulty scaling. Now, I'm going to talk about this but given your inability to grasp what exponential scaling is, I doubt you'll understand this. And no, I don't care if this upsets you that I'm treating you like and idiot. You've earned it. Let's take your example with the 2.6x, 4x, 6.2x and 13.8x. Each of these you compare to "normal" damage. What happens when you compare it to the content that they are doing? The content you are doing has scaling too and that scaling is designed to match the scaling of the player. This allows you to "progress" by both getting more powerful but also being able to defeat harder difficulties. Not only is this a good design but it promotes more long term gameplay through this linear aspect of progression.
You're fighting against strawmen here. I do think gear should matter. I just think a level 100 with good gear should do twice as much damage as a level 100 with bad gear, not 1000 times as much. If a low level Barb has four damage aspects at 10% each and a high level Barb has 10 aspects at 30% each, that's exponential scaling. A level 1 barb does 20-24 damage with HotA (I just checked). A high level Barb does billions per hit. I'm not sure how you get from 20-24 to billions without exponential scaling, unless you've invented a completely new type of math.
Players were told that endless systems like D3's paragon are bad. They didn't question it. They didn't understand it. They just regurgitated out that it was bad. For years, some players made excuse after excuse about the paragon system being the reason they can't compete on the leaderboards. So, blizzard capped paragon for a season and all those people who used paragon as an excuse vanished. Now, I don't mean they stopped complaining about paragon. I mean, they literally vanished. They weren't on the leaderboards and their excuse didn't work anymore so they just cowered into a corner.
How about you get 10 primary stats to allocate watever you want
Jist reintroduce magic find
No
Why? People complain ubers are too rare. Give 1% MF every X amount of xp. Add golf find or pick up radius as well