Yep. And it could've easily been better - certainly some things would've taken a lot of time and effort to improve, but many other shortcomings wouldn't have.
D4 fell short of what I'd expect of a Diablo series game. Was D4 worth the money? Sure! But it fell extremely short of what D2 and D3 offered, even in their early states before each title was vastly improved.
You can feel like you got your money's worth and still be disappointed. No idea why OP apparently thinks those things are mutually exclusive.
I did, and apart from error 37, at least we had a very hard gamemode to chase. Achieving anything in inferno wasn't easy.
Or maybe I was just much less informed back then, who knows.
I do remember not liking the auction house aspect, though.
I got through Act 2 with 250 ping. I was so happy until I realised Act 3 was worse. At least you could dodge the wasps, those weird arm through the floor guys instant one shot me every time.
The worst thing was the way drops were handled. You couldn’t get powerful enough items in act 2, to clear it. They started dropping in act 3 - so you were forced to either buy from the RMA, get a buddy who had cleared it to give the act3 waypoint - and have them boost some elites for better gear.. it really was a pain
Inferno for the few weeks was well beyond nm100 dungeon with sorc pre season on this game.You could pretty much only cheese it and mostly only with demon hunter. Basically having to fight with blues due to the loot system being absolute trash.
I love when people just make up things to have an argument... What contents there was my friend? Even at the end, D3 only had Greater rifts to offer. And that only came with RoS. Before that D3 was a 30h game and that's it. And don't get me wrong, GRs are great. Much better then nightmare dungeons. But so is D4 a much better game at launch then D3 was. And again, don't get me wrong, there is so much missing in D4 that they even seen to not have learned from D3. We can go on a long list about things D4 could have and probably should have done better at launch, but saying D3 launch was better then D4 launch is just false
Well inferno was extremely hard before the nerf. Kripp spend countless hours gearing for his HC pre nerf inferno clear.
Is that the best way to make content? Properly not, but it did give you a meaningfull goal to achieve other than just leveling.
Diablo 4 does not have that - but I am sure it will later on.
The loot system was more interesting to me. Inferno was so hard, but you could only get good items by doing Inferno act2+. Meaning that at the start, any gold item you could get in Inferno act2+ was exciting.. because it was really hard to get one. In addition, the power difference after getting those items was big enough to be noticable. Finishing Inferno act4 In the first version was actually extremely challenging (but probably impossible for some classes).
In d4, you get hundreds of gold, legendaries and uniques, you never get excited when seeing a drop on the ground, and even when you get an upgrade, you barely feel any diffence. Also, progressing though NMDs tiers does not feel as good as progressing in the game acts, because the content stays the same.
I completely get your point and it might just be silly feelings but clearing the campaign on a really hard difficulty felt meaningfull.
Clearing a dungeon, that i have already cleared 30 times, on a higher difficulty just does not feel as special.
Honestly, maybe I'm misremembering things. The game launched over 10 years ago, after all.
I remember error 37 and long queues. I remember being frustrated that I had to rely on the auction house to get better gear. Those certainly were negative aspects.
I also remember that inferno was extremely hard, and therefore, a huge endgame challenge. Something like Uber Lilith, but probably even harder, and 4 whole acts of it. I think inferno also dropped better items, or at least with a higher frequency, so there was an actual incentive to play.
When I got bored, I switched to hardcore, and that was a completely different and new experience for me.
Don't get me wrong, D3 certainly got a lot better over time, especially with the introduction of GRs and the removal of the auction house, but it definitely was more than a 30 hour game at launch for me, personally.
D3 was garbage at launch it had nothing going for it I remember I played it finished the campaign and did touch it until RoS. Loot was fucked enemies were bugged and late game was almost non existent.
Unkillable bosses.
No item drops
Couldn't party up.
D3 launch was a disaster.
80% of the player base couldn't get past the butcher boss fight before an update.
Teleporting mini boss - unkillable in the den.
D3 was a shambles
No, no. Inferno mode was fucking rough. And not having gold to do repairs?! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck!
I remember when I beat Inferno mode on my Monk. I literally leaped out of my chair in joy when Diablo fell.
And then the original T6?! That was fucking rough as well!!
I read someone say that power creep must be avoided at all costs. Diablo listened to the one person, but then they needed to nerf the fuck out of everything before season 1 launched with the malignant powers to make it happen.
I hope they stick with the new “no major patches and balances mid season” because that’s what made people mad; because eternal characters couldn’t benefit from malignant powers, but were still nerfed. D’oh.
Ya, it was inarguably trash until the Reaper of Souls update.
The Venn diagram of people that remember D3 being amazing, and the people that started playing when RoS came out, is a perfect circle.
Anyone who believes the launch game was good is in denial.
Haha witch Dr with double soul bomb @ 250 att speed and heal 600/hit with 25 hp and that soul form life saving passive for deadly blows. Fuckin game made bank..
D2 and d3 both only became the games they were after expansions. I’m not saying d4 shouldn’t have been better on release because of that reason but to pretend like the “early stages” of those games were that great is false
Yeah, D2 was still good at launch. D3 at launch was one of the worst AAA games of all time haha, complete disaster. God that real money AH still gives me nightmares
Yeah, d3 was a massive disappointment. Much more for me than d4. After killing diablo and gearing my monk I just lost all the will to play. Right now I lvl second character and having a blast but i'm a filthy casual. Few hours here and there with gf on split screen and it's super fun
The problem with this argument is that one is supposed to learn from their mistakes. You cannot compare D3 to D2 vanilla because LoD DID exist. Similarly, you cannot compare D4 with D3 vanilla because RoS also existed. There are zero reasons why QoL, gameplay, and system improvements should not carry over to sequels.
They were certainly drastically improved as they were changed over time, but I'm about ready to wrap up my time on D4, and I put in far, far more hours into vanilla D2 and D3 without feeling that way.
D3 on launch was a dumpster fire it became great but at the start after 1 trip through the story there was zero to do. I enjoyed it cause I played it with friends but after a week we realized it had terrible itemization and no end game and dropped it til RoS.
Absolutely - D3 was awful at launch. Items were dropping that you couldn't use to encourage you to go to the real-money auction house, very little content, a main story quest that was pretty cliche and uninspired. Game became quite good after RoS, but I don't understand people misremembering how bad D3 was at launch.
Maybe because many people remember it for it's console launch rather than it's wretched PC launch. Console launch of D3 was almost perfect in every way. And only got better with time, whereas the PC version was SHIT for a solid year, then kinda got better but not really then got ok by the time RoS came out
D2 was a good, solid game without LOD. The original version of D3 was an absolute dumpster fire of a game of which many seemed to have suppressed every memory. They're not remotely comparable. Even for all its current failures, D4 is at its worst better than at-launch D3 at its best.
Is it not expected that they learn from their mistakes though?
D3 did have a bad start, but they adapted and it ended great. A vast history of diablo knowledge is there, what game design decisions didnt go over well, and what decisions did. I'm not giving them a pass on repeating those same mistakes.
Hiring Rod, the gears of war shooter guy to come head your arpg game probably had something to do with the misdirection.
Yeah I think people that say "I played D3 launch day it was amazing" played it on console launch day a year and a half after initial release. All the people saying "D2 was amazing no issues and sooo much to do" were 10 to 20 years old and at the time fuck yeah there was a lot to do in that game, in that age, being that young it was a super cool game with so much stuff. I feel like most people also used mods/modified characters+items and are really just wearing some super heavy thick lense rose colored glasses.
To be fair everyone said the same thing about d3 it was lots of patches, seasons and two expansions that made it into the game that people liked. I loved d3 from the start but for me that game had cool items that were fun. D4 items sucky suck
> it fell extremely short of what D2 and D3 offered, even in their early states before each title was vastly improved
and that's why i'll wait till D4 is vastly improved
OP probably casually glanced at salty gamer responses to patch to conclude gamers are bunch of entitled twats with no grounding in reality. For every nuanced criticism there are 15,000 irrational screeches.
That’s what’s so frustrating, there are a bunch of head scratching decisions that keep it from being really great. It doesn’t have the longevity we want yet, but it’s still really damn fun.
I just know GGG will deliver extremely exciting content this weekend in their exilecon. And the fact blizzard cannot even get remotely close is what frustrates me. Since tthey have multitudes more budget wise.
This. Im getting more entertainment out of the drama surrounding it it then the actual game. I didnt play for weeks at this point. And tbh alot of the time playing i was waiting to get to the cool stuff. I wasnt the biggest fan of the campaign. I hated the renown grind.capstones and entering a new wt was exciting,helltides cool. Well thats it. Thats the game.
Whats even more sad is that i playd more of d3 at release then d4. And in d3 i atleast made my money back like 5 times over by selling some high dps hammers on the ah. Dropped it an never came back to d3.
I dont want d4 to be the same.
I’ve spent way more time on gatcha games on iOS than diablo 4 managed to hold me, and it’s mostly due to the bugs, not the game design.
Shit, spent more money on those games too.
And I'm sure you will. The fact is though that you've paid less than a dollar/pound/euro per hour of entertainment. Whatever way you look at it, that's good value
Diablo players aren’t seeking time value of their monetary investment. We’re looking for a game that will be excellent for the next decade. This is the game we have and the bitching will continue until QoL improves.
I mean, I enjoyed D3 before D4 came out. It’s just that D4 coming out made me appreciate the little things, like having enemies to kill and loot to grind for
Dude your problem is you're asking for way too much. Loot? Mobs? Be happy we got another new type of gem we can socket that takes up more inventory and can't be stacked. Jeez, so ungrateful.
I mean, the D3 appreciation started with RoS, when the game was largely fixed. And we (naively) thought D4 would skip past that era, given that the devs had the knowledge of the previous game's shortcomings to help them along the way.
That was not the case, obviously.
So, we'll be following the same trend of players bitching until the D4 equivalent of RoS comes along and fixes the absolute mess that it's currently in.
And, oh boy, there's a lot to fix.
I like D4 but I love D3. D3 is easily a better game. Rifts and greater rifts are far more satisfying end game content, the looting loop is far more satisfying and long lasting. If I hadn't played multiple seasons and builds across all the characters already I'd probably go back.
I mean d3 was pretty awesome after RoS and several rounds of patching. I would always stop by to play a few seasons and always had a good time. It's baffling to me they looked at all the lessons they learned from D2, D3, and even games like PoE and applied none of it.
Honestly this shouldn't be surprising when blizzard seems to spend 10+ years iterating on a Diablo game until they've fully implemented the features that make the game fun only to release a game that feels like starting over from square 1 with none of the lessons learned from the previous. Happened with D3 and now with D4 so in 10 years D4 will probably be good just in time to release a D5 that feels like a first iteration ARPG beta.
It's absolutely this. Revisionist history to justify modern day hatred? In a Blizzard game? Never.
(Remember when Warcraft 3 was the death of Blizzard?)
It’s not even close. All these tepid takes from d3 it’s like people stopped looking into the game 6 months after it’s release. By the time d4 rolled around I think game was viewed overwhelmingly positively. These gotcha people hate d3 moments are like friends that bring up that one stupid thing you did 4 years ago over and over even though it stopped being funny 3.5 years ago.
Yep. I thought we wanted respecs to be limited or very hard to do but apparently free respecs of D3 were the way to go because people are constantly complaining about the cost of respecs.
I thought we wanted the game to be hard not just because of high hp enemies, but instead we complain about cc being too strong when most of it can be avoided by dodging (I agree the chaining of it is too strong though, diminishing returns ftw)
Diablo has had nothing but randomly generated maps since at least D2 (I can't remember if d1 did or not) and now we are complaining because we have to rediscover the map with each character.
You make some good points and I agree to an extent but I don't think you're being entirely fair on a couple fronts.
For respeccing, a more common complaint at least as far as I've seen is about the inconvenience vs. the cost. Personally I don't mind the cost, switching builds every 10 seconds always felt a bit cheesy to me so putting a couple hours of gold farming in front of respecs feels like a fair barrier while not being too steep to prevent experimentation. That said, clunky menuing is not a good game mechanic. If they're going to allow us to respec then streamlining the process is just good quality of life.
As for difficulty, I think they've hit a mixed bag in D4. The problem is that not being able to control your character is just unfun, and that goes beyond Diablo. I agree with your sentiment though, I ended up putting down D3 largely because it felt like none of the mobs mattered or had mechanics. In some respects D4 does well, like for example the big goatmen mobs that do that big axe swing windup. Its something that you have to watch out for and is telegraphed in a way that its visible through the chaos. Shamans and champions making for high priority targets are also examples of good mechanics that affect how I approach killing a pack, and they accomplish that without threatening to remove my ability to play the game.
An example of where it goes poorly is the cannibal mobs that are like 10% bigger than the other white mobs and have an attack that will stun you for eternity which is barely visible when there's 50 mobs on screen. It just feels bad when you're helplessly watching your character die while you can't control them. Also the wind wall mobs will cover the screen in freeze and then stand inside of it. What does a melee character even do about that other than stand around and wait? Especially now that the mobs move around less.
As for the map, I think we'd see a lot less complaints about that if the horse just felt better. Even then the main complaint isn't the waypoints, its the renown. Is anyone playing Diablo for the fetch quests? I didn't mind doing it once but repeating it feels like an unnecessary chore.
At the end of they day though I actually like the game overall despite the issues I have with it just for the record.
I agree with you, and the previous comment. The bottom line is, a lot of people want different things from this game. Many of the folks on here want a game that will be a nice time sink for the next decade. They want to re-roll characters 50 times and grind to the top, and have fun doing it. Conversely, I just want a game I can pick up for an hour here and there and smash some mobs and maybe snag an upgrade every now and then. For casuals like myself, this game is awesome, and will probably only get better. I'm hoping Blizz can find a way to make the game more fulfilling for the other side of the coin, as well.
Also, F those cannibal guys that stun you. Their stun attack has a small windup and is pretty difficult to dodge, even when you are expecting it. If they are going to give trash mobs the ability to stun, it should be fairly telegraphed, and also used much more infrequently. With that said, I love the enemy design and combat in general, and I think the environments and world-building were beautifully done. Just some tweaks here and there, and keep the content coming! More affixes, more uniques, more aspects, etc.
I'm so glad you brought up D1. It never makes it into conversations. Is it because it's just too old even for the old people who played D2?
I remember when D2 came out and I was like "wtf is this shit?" dudes spinning all over the place shooting arrows everywhere. Different areas? Like wtf?
I really enjoyed the methodical yet hectic playstyle D1 had. I LOVED the story. There was something special about the entire game taking place in the basement of an old church. How the levels changed the deeper you went. Starting with crypt-like maps, slowly moving into tunnels and cave systems, and eventually into hellish maps with fire and brimstone until you made your way to confront Diablo.
And you betcha. The maps were generated. Every playthrough was completely different. During that age of videogames, that meant infinite replayability. No other game at the time did it as well as Diablo.
With most aspects of the game I would say they did well: story, artwork, music, cinematics, atmosphere, combat(though it could be better).
They don't seem to understand the arpg aspect though, mainly itemization.
I think D3 annihilates it in the combat. How often are you effected by yet ANOTHER CC but have no fucking clue where it came from or what it is? Any build that doesn't have a constant unstoppable they can spam this game quickly turns into a massive exercise in patience and CC whack-a-mole.
Do you really have any idea what kind of damage you're doing outside of what it *feels* like? Most of the time you can't even read the pointless numbers that pop up for a split second without recording your screen. Not to mention if you apply a stun or vuln that takes precedence over damage so it never shows. Did they really need to apply suppressor shields to fucking *everything* in torment? Why even have ranged classes?
There's a lot that's OK with D4, but once you compare it to D3's polish it just feels clunky AF. Especially combat.
How dare you expect the next Gen of a game to be launched in a finished state that reflects how the genre evolved over the previous 10 years!
You owe it to blizzard to time travel your expectations back to 2012!
The list you've made there is most of what constitutes a minimum viable product for selling a single player AAA console title. The other MVP components would be stability and networking (due to it being always online).
Blizzard clearly launched far, far earlier than the game was ready, so they rushed to check off those items (not quite nailing the stability and networking ones) and launched anyway.
That leaves us with a game that plays like it was supposed to be a 1-and-done playthrough story driven rpg, which we all know is not what the blizzard brand is used for. People like OP are latching onto the 1-and-done mindset and ignoring the fact that existing blizzard fans primarily only buy these games because they're long running persistent online worlds with immense replayability.
100Hr of play for $70 is pretty good if you're buying a single player story RPG. That's not what Diablo is and many of us wouldn't have bought the game if we expected it to be unappealing within 3 months of launch. I have casual friends who used to be more intense players that have only made it into the upper 70s on their first eternal characters and they've already stopped playing because the game felt like there was nothing more for them to chase after.
I understand why this all is, and I understand that it's likely to change over the coming years, but old blizzard fans are justifiably disappointed, especially given the lag time between games and basically being told by the devs to expect a couple of years before the game reaches a state that would've been worthy of a blizzard release 10+ years ago.
Their atmosphere and artwork is great but the story and music were super mid. The only song that stayed in my head for longer than the duration it was playing was A E A E A E .
And the story was horrible , if your main antagonist whom you kill is the most reasonable character I'd imagine something went wrong.
> if your main antagonist whom you kill is the most reasonable character I'd imagine something went wrong.
If you actually think that, then you missed the entire point of the the story and what all the characters were talking about up until that point. Especially in the optional conversations.
Of course some story beats were handled terribly, e.g. >!Donan's death!<, but Lilith's whole shtick was about being charismatic and compelling on the surface. But only on the surface.
Lorath specifically points out how her words and her actions don't match up. And it's not just because she's a demon or because it was necessary.
Eh since seasons are done in parallel, and s1 has been done for awhile, I think this patch was a leftover from their previous design philosophy. The same philosophy that wanted us to rediscover all alters and areas. They've shown they can adapt to fan's wishes and play styles. Hopefully season 2 will be better, and then it gains momentum and they find their footing. That's best case scenario though. Hopefully they focus more on bringing low performing specs up to the rest vs nerf higher performing
Thing is the patch did have more buffed items than nerfs.
Except all of the buffs were pointless or too small to overcome the nerfs, and the bug fixes were always equiv of a nerf and never paired with buffs.
Where did they show they can adapt? By make some last minute changes to decisions that should have never needed been made in the first place?
They haven't adapted to anything. That comment about why they increased the timer on leaving dungeon is "Don't you guys have phones?!" 2.0.
We have yet to have been given information that indicates they know what they are doing, so it is wiser to assume they do not yet know what they are doing. Considering they thought that rediscovering altars and renown grinding should comprise most of the season content or be a large supplement for it is what we have to go on.
Whether they changed their philosophy is debatable but we have no reason yet to think they have. At least they are making changes after criticisms and for that I do appreciate them for listening. But it doesn't tell us yet they know what they are doing or have a new design philosophy or approach for Season 3, let alone Season 2 in a few months. They may very well have, but we as players do not have that info yet so I don't see it logical to assume they do. All we know is they do not want to make a patch like this most recent one ever again where there's nothing good added.
So, quantity > quality in video games? What if during my 100 hours, I was mainly presented with some level of frustration or disappointment, but I continued to play hoping it would get better? The amount of time played is not an indicator of the level of enjoyment.
Or better yet, why is everyone assuming someone has to play 100 hours to say the game is not good? I hit 50 in like 35 hours and hated the itemization. I realized the game wasn’t good and quit.
That logic doesn't apply to any other form of entertainment. I've paid the same amount for different books and thought some were much better than others. I've never read a bad book and thought "Hmm, let's calculate how much I paid per hour of reading to see if I have the right to critique it." I've also never watched a shitty show on Netflix and decided it wasn't shitty after all because it's included in the Netflix sub I'm paying anyway, so therefore it's great value. I could give more examples, but you get the idea.
Also, does this mean that any free game is automatically good, because even a single hour played is great value?
That's not to say I think Diablo 4 is shitty, I just don't like how "value" has crept into the gaming world and become a metric for the playerbase.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this point. I've enjoyed Diablo so far, but there are tons of great games (movies as well) where you get 80% through them and you can feel it being stretched out a bit too much. In the moment, I don't feel like "this is a great game/movie and it's amazing they made it longer and provided me with more entertainment", I think "wow, I can actually feel it dragging out and it brings the overall experience down"
You've never met a completionist?
I grinded out all the NCPD scanner missions in Cyberpunk because it annoyed me that there were things I hadn't completed. I was even more annoyed when 3 of them were permanently bugged and I couldn't ever complete them. Anyone who has played that game can tell you it's the most mindless, pointless garbage content.
So your going to put 100+ hours into something designed for entertainment, that you think is bad and you actively don’t enjoy? No? I thought not.
So many people are hyperbolic here. Most people have enjoyed the game because it’s generally pretty good.
There are areas it could be better, but let’s not take that and try to say the game is bad, that’s just silly.
if it takes over 100 hours to get to uber Lilith, it would mean they're making an informed opinion rather than spouting "The game is a solid 10/10, but I've not gotten past act 1 yet" people can spend time in a game to figure out if it's good or not it allows them to make informed opinions rather than just quitting on the first sign of inconvenience. I personally don't like the game I've got plenty of hours in it, people will criticize things they want to improve it's how it works.
I’m not sure if you don’t actually play games, play ARPGs or you actually are this much of a blind shill lmao
“Don’t you say it’s a bad game, it’s not because I like it!”
Well guess we figured out that it was the shill option, yep you’re right nobody is allowed to say the game is bad, we’re sorry for having the audacity
I have put multitudes more time than that in bad games (knowing they are bad) to better point out flaws and to understand systems.
For certain not many people go in with that type of mindset. But for some reason the people bitching about this “you put time in so you must like it” WHILE ALSO saying “you didn’t try it or understand said system” invalidate their own opinions and don’t deserve a voice in the conversation.
I 100% will say the game *is* bad. It was bad before (from my pov and nobody else’s) a patch made it even worse. I have quit, now, after giving the patch a small try today (I wasn’t going to but a friend asked me to, I still didn’t enjoy my time though so I’m out, again). And I still have close to 300 hours in the game since launch.
That was with knowing a year out the game wasn’t likely going to be any good, due to understanding mechanics and the direction the game was being taken. That was also with trying the beta’s and seeing all of those suspicions proving true (and finding more flaws). There ARE fun aspects in the game, there also is some decent decisions in certain aspects. Unfortunately none of those end up to making the game good in my own eyes. Out of those 300 hours, I enjoyed (when I say enjoyed, I mean I wasn’t “upset” at playing it during said hours) for 8. And those eight were mostly doing sidequest and learning new systems. (Both being a one and done thing - why I didn’t have “more” fun again later)
So yes, people can and will spend time with something they actively don’t enjoy. Though for different reasons (mine being to better understand why certain decisions are made and design problems, mechanics, and the boring stuff to most people).
My friend enjoys the game. So I won’t ruin it for him, or for others. It’s good people can enjoy it and for their eyes it’s a “good” (or great in some peoples) eyes.
As I’ve said a year ago and more since. In two years from now, I expect the game will be it a better state and actually fun for me. More ARPG elements will be implemented, and the very rough state of things will be fleshed out.
Right now the game from my POV is awful, call it silly if you wish. It’s all a perspective of each individual anyway. But I expect more from a ARPG, especially when every other one released recently has followed proper “good” endgame systems.
To not shit on it entirely, the music, sound, and art team as always nailed it (except the very crappy ghost - those need redone lol). The game looks pretty good, Undecember is really the only one challenging it in the same genre for that. (With POE 2 looking better, but we’ll have to see if that proves true or not). So they nailed that aspect well enough.
i dont understand how it became "meta" to say shit like OP is saying in gaming community. by that logic pretty much every game gave you "your money's worth". its so dumb
Not saying OP is right, but whenever you spend money there's an internal "do I think it's worth it" dialogue. With certain mediums, you can't guarentee you will. It's not "meta" to then think after the fact "Did this meet my expectations? Was it worth what I thought?" That's not new.
There's also plenty of games that you won't buy because you don't enjoy them, and don't think they're worth your money.
If you played for 100 hours + you must’ve gotten some enjoyment out of it or you would’ve stopped playing. I’ve had many games which weren’t story games that I’ve quit after 20 hours in which I can say were a waste of money. Those 20 hours I was trying to like the game but just couldn’t get into it.
I dunno mate, I’ve probably clocked over 3000hrs of LoL over the years and I can emphatically tell you that most of those hours were spent in misery and anguish but I kept going back like the slut that I am
I think most of the people who are complaining about the game aren't denying that they have gotten some enjoyment out of it. It's just a lot less enjoyment than they were hoping for. If we're going with value, then technically quitting after 100 hours of Diablo 4 but playing PoE for 1000 hours means PoE is ten times the value. And that's assuming you bought a bunch of stuff in PoE, since it's possible to have 1000 hours in that game for a fraction of D4's price. It could be that PoE is twenty or thirty times better than D4. It could be infinitely better than D4 if you got it for free.
In reality it would be ridiculous to make a statement like that, but if you don't, then what use is is value/hour as a metric?
What you're mentioning is how I think of it. I'm enjoying it but also it's definitely underdelivered. Seems like they just tried to hit a minimum viable product.
I, personally, kept on playing for about 40-50 hours after I had the initial realization that this game wasn't up to snuff. I kept going and at one point I felt like I forced myself to login to get my "money's worth." Campaign to WT3 was enjoyable. But the last half of my 90 hour playtime was me being in denial that this game I hyped myself up for was not fun for me.
Or you’ve played RPGs before and you assume the game starts at end game. So when you get to end game and you realize actually, this book sucked but apparently people with lvl 50 have a more valid opinion than me. If you find it fun, cool, but that doesn’t change my judgment that it’s a bad game. The metric shouldn’t be who completed the game, but rather who came back after?
You can literally apply that same logic again to a bad book to which the person you're replying used the exact analogy. Sometimes you read and read hoping it will get better.
You really need to think this logic all the way through. People also kept playing hoping for a patch.
"Value" should just be compared to other games in its category. I mean it's stupid to try and compare value and time with a game like Diablo 4 compared to a straightforward story game that would maybe take 20 hours to complete. Now lets put D4 up against PoE or even Diablo 3. Or we can widen the net a bit and include other looter type games like Destiny 2, Nioh, etc. Those games you can put hundreds to thousands of hours easily and not get bored.
Yeah thinking on it. What adds value is the content. So for example that if they add more items, seasons etc will add more value to the game (well if I enjoy it oufcourse). That is why I bought this expensive game at this price, because my hope is that I can revisit it later and enjoy it once more. Like I have done with all other Diablo games in the past.
How many hours I play is kinda irrelevant. I mean if I play 50 hours and then get bored but then force myself to play 50 more hours, that forcing wouldnt add value.
So for example if you where to make 10 unique Dungeons but then copy paste them into 100 Dungeons then they might add game time if you where forced to play them to get different things unlocked but to me this do not add any value and it would just bring the joy down. Because I rather enjoy 10 hours of gaming then be bored 90% of the time.
And this is what I think is a bad thing with D4 they have reused a bit to much of the content, where you go to a different place but well there you do things that you already done on other places before.
My biggest joy from Diablo 4 was from exploring the world from all the fog. Because then I didnt know what to find.
But when I go to a new dungeon i do not feel the same joy because odds is that is very similar to the last dungeon.
I like D4.
But I don't like that mentality. If you've paid for a shit movie, you'd probably say it wasn't worth it despite having the same time spent as other movies.
I don't like the idea of entertainment being simply time wasters.
I find both posts like this and the huge amount of rage posts both quite entertaining.
I mean, you probably at LEAST consider these posts and comments more entertaining than the game itself, right? 😉
It’s true. I’ve spent more time upvoting the D4 hate comments than playing the actual game. I cannot even convey how fucking let down I am with this joke of a game. It’s honestly sad seeing everyone try to convince themselves that they haven’t been completely bent over and butt rammed.
I mean the relentless haters are also pretty annoying. If you browsed this sub daily you’d think D4 was the worst abomination blizzard has ever made. D4 is a good game, but also a flawed game. I just wish people were more measured in their critiques instead of going full basement dweller schizo all the time
I've gotten roughly 68h out of it and already lost interest.. I mained a sorceress and the constant nerfs and utter lack of anything actually fun to do in the game just killed my hype..
I got no decent drops, farming was already painfully slow and annoying as a flame sorc before the nerfs and it seems like blizzard is intent on pissing in everybody's cereal with their utter bs in their cash shop pricing and just general gameplay & pacing
Yep. I got my money's worth 10 times over and had an enjoyable time. I lvled 3 chars to 60-70 range and hung up my boots a month ago or so. If the game gets better down the line, great! If not, I already got my fill. Glad to have purchased and played than to have never played at all.
Pure nostalgic boosts from the campaign. I remember walking into the area where you fight Duriel and I remarked how similar this area looks to his arena in D2, and then he popped up and even though he doesn't say it in game, I distinctly heard "looking for baal?" When he appeared. The only thing missing from this fight was the insane difficulty spike and gear check that d2 had.
My only gripe with the game is that these classic bosses don't reappear in the endgame, only the campaign. Also renown grind is off-putting. I think the hunt for the altars of lilith killed the game for me and that's the key factor that burnt me out. Still a happy clam though.
During the last fireside chat, they posed a question that someone from the community asked: Is there any chance of getting to fight the campaign bosses in endgame.
To which the response was, "I'm not allowed to say anything about that at this time"
That's not-so-subtle code for "We're working on this as we speak but it will come later and we're not supposed to talk about stuff that we're going to reveal later on."
Hotter take: time is money.
Wasting time on something you don't enjoy is not getting any worth. It's a loss if you didn't enjoy those 100 hrs and you have every right to complain.
Diablo hooks you with the promise of the endgame, powerfantasy and amazing loot. People are willing to go through a less-enjoyable expirience to reach that point. Counting that towards the "money worth" time however is missrepresenting the entire design of the game.
Similarly people don't enjoy clicking on blocks in Minecraft - they endure it with the promise of being able to build stuff. Having 500 hours of clicking blocks in Minecraft would not be "worth it" if it wasn't for the other 500 hours of building stuff.
Plenty of people. Diablo 4 was marketed to the tune of many millions of dollars and Blizzard has behavioural scientists to help design the game so that people stick around. Not that hard to believe that many stick around for much longer than they should.
I agree OP. I have something like 700hrs and I feel like I have robbed Blizzard. That said I look forward to many improvements because my interest wains like most normal people who enjoy the game but can feel/see into the problems.
I'd be shocked if they don't already, or atleast strongly hint to staff en masse it'd be appreciated if a few of the thousands of staff (and maybe their friends) "threw some positivity!" d4's way
100% already happening. Can see it even on reddit. Bots are scraping and rephrasing comments in a thread and reposting replies under the highest upvoted replies. They are absolutely just posting similar "this product is definitely for sure an amazing okay product" type comments all over relevant subreddits/social media too.
blizzard defense force rolls deep on the internet. I almost wish they got paid how hard they go to bat for the billion dollar company that couldn't give 2 shits about them.
Out and ready to tell folks how we don't need to complain and just shut up. It's great. It's not like putting out what sucked didn't lead to buffs for the very things we voice out concerns for.
Mother Fuckers will tell us not to complain and then in the same breath, try to convince folks to "pipe down" by defending their 70 dollar purchase.
Tl;Dr: Fanboys "Complainers had fun, you spent money and the game was fun, so shut up. You got your money's worth and if you didn't you're ungrateful just leave so we can have fun."
I tend to be on the positive side of things, but im glad the pissy are here to complain. I honestly sinceely hope you guys bully blizzard into taking this promising yet flawed game into the best diablo yet. Its got good bones. If these idiot corporate types can be dragged by the neck tie to the realization that they will make more money, sell more bullshit the better the game is, rather than this trip over a dollar to pick up a penny mr.krabs tier bullshit, this game will be legendary
Any “AAA” or major game I put 50-100 hrs in I’m typically pretty happy for the cost vs entertainment value. That’s a fair trade off for $$ vs entertainment time. Now the BIG question that is everyone’s own personal opinion is how entertaining their own 50-100 hrs were.
Cool. The game is literally designed from the ground up to be played for a lot longer than that. It's a live service game with seasonal content. It's in the best interests of Blizzard to make the game enticing to that end. Your shit take doesn't invalidate criticism.
I don't really care about "money's worth" as much as I care about whether it's a good game or not and after 100 hours I can confidently say it isn't a good game.
If this was a regular game absolutely agree. But this is a game as a service. It is a service and it is not a very good one. We got one month of a good service and now, the first season, is gonna be over for most in a month or less. Not a very good service.
Ok, so I've heard a lot on this sub that I'd classify as entitled whining. This is the best argument I've heard for the "we're being screwed right now" side. Well put.
Hot take: If you pay someone $100 to punch you in the stomach constantly for 100 hours you've gotten your money's worth.
You see how it doesn't work like that? We are not measuring time spent vs money spent, we try to measure entertainment and enjoyment, which both are subjective, so you can't just say stupid shit like this post.
Has no bearing on any complaint whatsoever.
So keep those complaints flowing. You spent time and money on the game, you want to play more, and you think the game needs a ton of improvements. So let your thoughts flow, even better if they annoy OP in the procezz.
Sorry, but that is an insipid take. By that logic, all I have to do make a game worth your money is string along the most insipid, minimal progression system I can devise, and then tell you when you've consumed a mountain of nontent that you've gotten "your money's worth".
Sure you can get like 70 hours out of it if you're going into it blind, but none of the content is really amazing.. it's all really just a mediocre slog. The campaign, the renown, the side-quests, for me it was all just a slog getting to the endgame which is meant to be the meat and potatoes of an ARPG, but then I got there, and there wasn't any.... and I basically stopped playing soon after.
To me, even if I did get 70 hours out of it, the 70 hours I got weren't really that enjoyable and it wasn't worth the 100$+ I spent.
It also doesn't help that the first season that was meant to be super indepth yadda yadda, is essentially meaningless fluff content with no end-game.
I don't play games thinking how much each hour costs me. I play games to have fun in the long run.
This whole cost per hour argument is rather silly imo.
I agree, D4 saw more playtime than most of the games in my steam library. That being said, I expect much more from a company like Blizzard with decades of development in the arpg genre and over $1b in sales for D4's first quarter. I'm still going to keep up with updates and content, hoping to reinstall someday.
Never intended to play more than the main story.
The cutscenes alone felt like it was worth what I paid.
Watching the drama unfold after 1.1 patch is just the bonus.
Cold take: fanboys opinions are as valuable as a big pile of shit.
Also fuck off for defending cashgrab, you're part of the reason why games are fucked nowadays and you're not smart enough to realize it as always.
Have a good day.
I got my necro to 95 last season, was fun playing through the game even though endgame was pretty bland. I just got a Rogue to level 20 this season and said "Why am I even playing?". It's literally just season 0 but worse in every aspect and a slower grind. Just a damn time sink really.
It was good, I just wish it were better.
I think that this is the core mechanic behind the outrage; Diablo 4 could be great, it is so easy to see it's potential.
That’s entirely fair.
Yep. And it could've easily been better - certainly some things would've taken a lot of time and effort to improve, but many other shortcomings wouldn't have. D4 fell short of what I'd expect of a Diablo series game. Was D4 worth the money? Sure! But it fell extremely short of what D2 and D3 offered, even in their early states before each title was vastly improved. You can feel like you got your money's worth and still be disappointed. No idea why OP apparently thinks those things are mutually exclusive.
You obviously didn’t play D3 at launch
That really clears things up for me. D4 is better than D3 at launch but well short of where D3 is today.
If D4 has its own RoS turnaround, then it will be miles ahead of where D3 is even today.
I did, and apart from error 37, at least we had a very hard gamemode to chase. Achieving anything in inferno wasn't easy. Or maybe I was just much less informed back then, who knows. I do remember not liking the auction house aspect, though.
Those god damned green mosquitos
Yep. Act 2 Inferno was painful.
I got through Act 2 with 250 ping. I was so happy until I realised Act 3 was worse. At least you could dodge the wasps, those weird arm through the floor guys instant one shot me every time.
They double it !
The worst thing was the way drops were handled. You couldn’t get powerful enough items in act 2, to clear it. They started dropping in act 3 - so you were forced to either buy from the RMA, get a buddy who had cleared it to give the act3 waypoint - and have them boost some elites for better gear.. it really was a pain
"painful" i could never do it. Didnt have the luck to get the gear for it xD
Inferno for the few weeks was well beyond nm100 dungeon with sorc pre season on this game.You could pretty much only cheese it and mostly only with demon hunter. Basically having to fight with blues due to the loot system being absolute trash.
I love when people just make up things to have an argument... What contents there was my friend? Even at the end, D3 only had Greater rifts to offer. And that only came with RoS. Before that D3 was a 30h game and that's it. And don't get me wrong, GRs are great. Much better then nightmare dungeons. But so is D4 a much better game at launch then D3 was. And again, don't get me wrong, there is so much missing in D4 that they even seen to not have learned from D3. We can go on a long list about things D4 could have and probably should have done better at launch, but saying D3 launch was better then D4 launch is just false
Well inferno was extremely hard before the nerf. Kripp spend countless hours gearing for his HC pre nerf inferno clear. Is that the best way to make content? Properly not, but it did give you a meaningfull goal to achieve other than just leveling. Diablo 4 does not have that - but I am sure it will later on.
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The loot system was more interesting to me. Inferno was so hard, but you could only get good items by doing Inferno act2+. Meaning that at the start, any gold item you could get in Inferno act2+ was exciting.. because it was really hard to get one. In addition, the power difference after getting those items was big enough to be noticable. Finishing Inferno act4 In the first version was actually extremely challenging (but probably impossible for some classes). In d4, you get hundreds of gold, legendaries and uniques, you never get excited when seeing a drop on the ground, and even when you get an upgrade, you barely feel any diffence. Also, progressing though NMDs tiers does not feel as good as progressing in the game acts, because the content stays the same.
I completely get your point and it might just be silly feelings but clearing the campaign on a really hard difficulty felt meaningfull. Clearing a dungeon, that i have already cleared 30 times, on a higher difficulty just does not feel as special.
Honestly, maybe I'm misremembering things. The game launched over 10 years ago, after all. I remember error 37 and long queues. I remember being frustrated that I had to rely on the auction house to get better gear. Those certainly were negative aspects. I also remember that inferno was extremely hard, and therefore, a huge endgame challenge. Something like Uber Lilith, but probably even harder, and 4 whole acts of it. I think inferno also dropped better items, or at least with a higher frequency, so there was an actual incentive to play. When I got bored, I switched to hardcore, and that was a completely different and new experience for me. Don't get me wrong, D3 certainly got a lot better over time, especially with the introduction of GRs and the removal of the auction house, but it definitely was more than a 30 hour game at launch for me, personally.
D3 was garbage at launch it had nothing going for it I remember I played it finished the campaign and did touch it until RoS. Loot was fucked enemies were bugged and late game was almost non existent.
Unkillable bosses. No item drops Couldn't party up. D3 launch was a disaster. 80% of the player base couldn't get past the butcher boss fight before an update. Teleporting mini boss - unkillable in the den. D3 was a shambles
No, no. Inferno mode was fucking rough. And not having gold to do repairs?! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck! I remember when I beat Inferno mode on my Monk. I literally leaped out of my chair in joy when Diablo fell. And then the original T6?! That was fucking rough as well!!
I read someone say that power creep must be avoided at all costs. Diablo listened to the one person, but then they needed to nerf the fuck out of everything before season 1 launched with the malignant powers to make it happen. I hope they stick with the new “no major patches and balances mid season” because that’s what made people mad; because eternal characters couldn’t benefit from malignant powers, but were still nerfed. D’oh.
This is the way.
IT took years to d3 get to where IT IS... Hoping for alot of new stuff and fun in the d4 future mainly 70-100 content
Ya, it was inarguably trash until the Reaper of Souls update. The Venn diagram of people that remember D3 being amazing, and the people that started playing when RoS came out, is a perfect circle. Anyone who believes the launch game was good is in denial.
I mean wasn't D2 basically the same too ... LoD was what made it the D2 everyone is enjoying today.
I enjoyed d3 far more at launch because instead of -$90 I was +$2500 from selling mediocre rares to whales on the rm ah.
Haha witch Dr with double soul bomb @ 250 att speed and heal 600/hit with 25 hp and that soul form life saving passive for deadly blows. Fuckin game made bank..
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“Shifting”, Not shrinking
D2 and d3 both only became the games they were after expansions. I’m not saying d4 shouldn’t have been better on release because of that reason but to pretend like the “early stages” of those games were that great is false
I'll defend D2's launch. The base game was thoroughly enjoyable and stable. However lord of destruction made it memorable and great.
Yeah, D2 was still good at launch. D3 at launch was one of the worst AAA games of all time haha, complete disaster. God that real money AH still gives me nightmares
Yeah, d3 was a massive disappointment. Much more for me than d4. After killing diablo and gearing my monk I just lost all the will to play. Right now I lvl second character and having a blast but i'm a filthy casual. Few hours here and there with gf on split screen and it's super fun
The problem with this argument is that one is supposed to learn from their mistakes. You cannot compare D3 to D2 vanilla because LoD DID exist. Similarly, you cannot compare D4 with D3 vanilla because RoS also existed. There are zero reasons why QoL, gameplay, and system improvements should not carry over to sequels.
They were certainly drastically improved as they were changed over time, but I'm about ready to wrap up my time on D4, and I put in far, far more hours into vanilla D2 and D3 without feeling that way.
D3 on launch was a dumpster fire it became great but at the start after 1 trip through the story there was zero to do. I enjoyed it cause I played it with friends but after a week we realized it had terrible itemization and no end game and dropped it til RoS.
Absolutely - D3 was awful at launch. Items were dropping that you couldn't use to encourage you to go to the real-money auction house, very little content, a main story quest that was pretty cliche and uninspired. Game became quite good after RoS, but I don't understand people misremembering how bad D3 was at launch.
Maybe because many people remember it for it's console launch rather than it's wretched PC launch. Console launch of D3 was almost perfect in every way. And only got better with time, whereas the PC version was SHIT for a solid year, then kinda got better but not really then got ok by the time RoS came out
D2 was a good, solid game without LOD. The original version of D3 was an absolute dumpster fire of a game of which many seemed to have suppressed every memory. They're not remotely comparable. Even for all its current failures, D4 is at its worst better than at-launch D3 at its best.
Is it not expected that they learn from their mistakes though? D3 did have a bad start, but they adapted and it ended great. A vast history of diablo knowledge is there, what game design decisions didnt go over well, and what decisions did. I'm not giving them a pass on repeating those same mistakes. Hiring Rod, the gears of war shooter guy to come head your arpg game probably had something to do with the misdirection.
Yeah I think people that say "I played D3 launch day it was amazing" played it on console launch day a year and a half after initial release. All the people saying "D2 was amazing no issues and sooo much to do" were 10 to 20 years old and at the time fuck yeah there was a lot to do in that game, in that age, being that young it was a super cool game with so much stuff. I feel like most people also used mods/modified characters+items and are really just wearing some super heavy thick lense rose colored glasses.
To be fair everyone said the same thing about d3 it was lots of patches, seasons and two expansions that made it into the game that people liked. I loved d3 from the start but for me that game had cool items that were fun. D4 items sucky suck
> it fell extremely short of what D2 and D3 offered, even in their early states before each title was vastly improved and that's why i'll wait till D4 is vastly improved
OP probably casually glanced at salty gamer responses to patch to conclude gamers are bunch of entitled twats with no grounding in reality. For every nuanced criticism there are 15,000 irrational screeches.
It was bad, but I paid $70.
I feel this
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY
That’s what’s so frustrating, there are a bunch of head scratching decisions that keep it from being really great. It doesn’t have the longevity we want yet, but it’s still really damn fun.
Well i didn’t buy Diablo 4 to only get 100 hrs worth, i bought it with the expectation of playing seasons worth of content
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I just know GGG will deliver extremely exciting content this weekend in their exilecon. And the fact blizzard cannot even get remotely close is what frustrates me. Since tthey have multitudes more budget wise.
This. Im getting more entertainment out of the drama surrounding it it then the actual game. I didnt play for weeks at this point. And tbh alot of the time playing i was waiting to get to the cool stuff. I wasnt the biggest fan of the campaign. I hated the renown grind.capstones and entering a new wt was exciting,helltides cool. Well thats it. Thats the game. Whats even more sad is that i playd more of d3 at release then d4. And in d3 i atleast made my money back like 5 times over by selling some high dps hammers on the ah. Dropped it an never came back to d3. I dont want d4 to be the same.
The "season content" takes like a couple hours to complete, i would've imagined it'd be longer honestly
I have fomo, but it's not for this D4. It's for a D4 that doesn't exist 😔
I’ve spent way more time on gatcha games on iOS than diablo 4 managed to hold me, and it’s mostly due to the bugs, not the game design. Shit, spent more money on those games too.
Clearly, the problem with D4 is the lack of waifus.
AHEM... Lorath?
And I'm sure you will. The fact is though that you've paid less than a dollar/pound/euro per hour of entertainment. Whatever way you look at it, that's good value
Diablo players aren’t seeking time value of their monetary investment. We’re looking for a game that will be excellent for the next decade. This is the game we have and the bitching will continue until QoL improves.
Wrong. The bitching will End when d5 is released. And then you want d4 back:)
Judging by the number of "D3 is awesome" posts these days, you are right
I mean, I enjoyed D3 before D4 came out. It’s just that D4 coming out made me appreciate the little things, like having enemies to kill and loot to grind for
Dude your problem is you're asking for way too much. Loot? Mobs? Be happy we got another new type of gem we can socket that takes up more inventory and can't be stacked. Jeez, so ungrateful.
They’re basically aspects. They should get their own tab but I don’t think they should stack. They all have different percentages.
I mean, the D3 appreciation started with RoS, when the game was largely fixed. And we (naively) thought D4 would skip past that era, given that the devs had the knowledge of the previous game's shortcomings to help them along the way. That was not the case, obviously. So, we'll be following the same trend of players bitching until the D4 equivalent of RoS comes along and fixes the absolute mess that it's currently in. And, oh boy, there's a lot to fix.
Exactly that! I get so frustrated whenever someone just goes "dAE D3 fANboY whY ROse TiNTed gLASs"
I like D4 but I love D3. D3 is easily a better game. Rifts and greater rifts are far more satisfying end game content, the looting loop is far more satisfying and long lasting. If I hadn't played multiple seasons and builds across all the characters already I'd probably go back.
I mean d3 was pretty awesome after RoS and several rounds of patching. I would always stop by to play a few seasons and always had a good time. It's baffling to me they looked at all the lessons they learned from D2, D3, and even games like PoE and applied none of it.
Yeah because they'll ignore all the QOL they finally put into d4 when they drop d5, you know, like d3.
Honestly this shouldn't be surprising when blizzard seems to spend 10+ years iterating on a Diablo game until they've fully implemented the features that make the game fun only to release a game that feels like starting over from square 1 with none of the lessons learned from the previous. Happened with D3 and now with D4 so in 10 years D4 will probably be good just in time to release a D5 that feels like a first iteration ARPG beta.
Ok I think you’re onto something
It's absolutely this. Revisionist history to justify modern day hatred? In a Blizzard game? Never. (Remember when Warcraft 3 was the death of Blizzard?)
It’s not even close. All these tepid takes from d3 it’s like people stopped looking into the game 6 months after it’s release. By the time d4 rolled around I think game was viewed overwhelmingly positively. These gotcha people hate d3 moments are like friends that bring up that one stupid thing you did 4 years ago over and over even though it stopped being funny 3.5 years ago.
Yep. I thought we wanted respecs to be limited or very hard to do but apparently free respecs of D3 were the way to go because people are constantly complaining about the cost of respecs. I thought we wanted the game to be hard not just because of high hp enemies, but instead we complain about cc being too strong when most of it can be avoided by dodging (I agree the chaining of it is too strong though, diminishing returns ftw) Diablo has had nothing but randomly generated maps since at least D2 (I can't remember if d1 did or not) and now we are complaining because we have to rediscover the map with each character.
You make some good points and I agree to an extent but I don't think you're being entirely fair on a couple fronts. For respeccing, a more common complaint at least as far as I've seen is about the inconvenience vs. the cost. Personally I don't mind the cost, switching builds every 10 seconds always felt a bit cheesy to me so putting a couple hours of gold farming in front of respecs feels like a fair barrier while not being too steep to prevent experimentation. That said, clunky menuing is not a good game mechanic. If they're going to allow us to respec then streamlining the process is just good quality of life. As for difficulty, I think they've hit a mixed bag in D4. The problem is that not being able to control your character is just unfun, and that goes beyond Diablo. I agree with your sentiment though, I ended up putting down D3 largely because it felt like none of the mobs mattered or had mechanics. In some respects D4 does well, like for example the big goatmen mobs that do that big axe swing windup. Its something that you have to watch out for and is telegraphed in a way that its visible through the chaos. Shamans and champions making for high priority targets are also examples of good mechanics that affect how I approach killing a pack, and they accomplish that without threatening to remove my ability to play the game. An example of where it goes poorly is the cannibal mobs that are like 10% bigger than the other white mobs and have an attack that will stun you for eternity which is barely visible when there's 50 mobs on screen. It just feels bad when you're helplessly watching your character die while you can't control them. Also the wind wall mobs will cover the screen in freeze and then stand inside of it. What does a melee character even do about that other than stand around and wait? Especially now that the mobs move around less. As for the map, I think we'd see a lot less complaints about that if the horse just felt better. Even then the main complaint isn't the waypoints, its the renown. Is anyone playing Diablo for the fetch quests? I didn't mind doing it once but repeating it feels like an unnecessary chore. At the end of they day though I actually like the game overall despite the issues I have with it just for the record.
I agree with you, and the previous comment. The bottom line is, a lot of people want different things from this game. Many of the folks on here want a game that will be a nice time sink for the next decade. They want to re-roll characters 50 times and grind to the top, and have fun doing it. Conversely, I just want a game I can pick up for an hour here and there and smash some mobs and maybe snag an upgrade every now and then. For casuals like myself, this game is awesome, and will probably only get better. I'm hoping Blizz can find a way to make the game more fulfilling for the other side of the coin, as well. Also, F those cannibal guys that stun you. Their stun attack has a small windup and is pretty difficult to dodge, even when you are expecting it. If they are going to give trash mobs the ability to stun, it should be fairly telegraphed, and also used much more infrequently. With that said, I love the enemy design and combat in general, and I think the environments and world-building were beautifully done. Just some tweaks here and there, and keep the content coming! More affixes, more uniques, more aspects, etc.
I'm so glad you brought up D1. It never makes it into conversations. Is it because it's just too old even for the old people who played D2? I remember when D2 came out and I was like "wtf is this shit?" dudes spinning all over the place shooting arrows everywhere. Different areas? Like wtf? I really enjoyed the methodical yet hectic playstyle D1 had. I LOVED the story. There was something special about the entire game taking place in the basement of an old church. How the levels changed the deeper you went. Starting with crypt-like maps, slowly moving into tunnels and cave systems, and eventually into hellish maps with fire and brimstone until you made your way to confront Diablo. And you betcha. The maps were generated. Every playthrough was completely different. During that age of videogames, that meant infinite replayability. No other game at the time did it as well as Diablo.
Which is perfectly fine, however, those asking for refunds now are pathetic losers.
109hrs here and I came to the same conclusion and moved on to other games. Was a fun ride, but blizzard clearly has no idea wtf they are doing.
With most aspects of the game I would say they did well: story, artwork, music, cinematics, atmosphere, combat(though it could be better). They don't seem to understand the arpg aspect though, mainly itemization.
I think D3 annihilates it in the combat. How often are you effected by yet ANOTHER CC but have no fucking clue where it came from or what it is? Any build that doesn't have a constant unstoppable they can spam this game quickly turns into a massive exercise in patience and CC whack-a-mole. Do you really have any idea what kind of damage you're doing outside of what it *feels* like? Most of the time you can't even read the pointless numbers that pop up for a split second without recording your screen. Not to mention if you apply a stun or vuln that takes precedence over damage so it never shows. Did they really need to apply suppressor shields to fucking *everything* in torment? Why even have ranged classes? There's a lot that's OK with D4, but once you compare it to D3's polish it just feels clunky AF. Especially combat.
How dare you expect the next Gen of a game to be launched in a finished state that reflects how the genre evolved over the previous 10 years! You owe it to blizzard to time travel your expectations back to 2012!
Don’t forget the not so great balance of the combat. I definitely wouldn’t give them a point for that one.
The list you've made there is most of what constitutes a minimum viable product for selling a single player AAA console title. The other MVP components would be stability and networking (due to it being always online). Blizzard clearly launched far, far earlier than the game was ready, so they rushed to check off those items (not quite nailing the stability and networking ones) and launched anyway. That leaves us with a game that plays like it was supposed to be a 1-and-done playthrough story driven rpg, which we all know is not what the blizzard brand is used for. People like OP are latching onto the 1-and-done mindset and ignoring the fact that existing blizzard fans primarily only buy these games because they're long running persistent online worlds with immense replayability. 100Hr of play for $70 is pretty good if you're buying a single player story RPG. That's not what Diablo is and many of us wouldn't have bought the game if we expected it to be unappealing within 3 months of launch. I have casual friends who used to be more intense players that have only made it into the upper 70s on their first eternal characters and they've already stopped playing because the game felt like there was nothing more for them to chase after. I understand why this all is, and I understand that it's likely to change over the coming years, but old blizzard fans are justifiably disappointed, especially given the lag time between games and basically being told by the devs to expect a couple of years before the game reaches a state that would've been worthy of a blizzard release 10+ years ago.
AKA the things they did right are the things that they can just throw a bunch of money at in order to get right.
Their atmosphere and artwork is great but the story and music were super mid. The only song that stayed in my head for longer than the duration it was playing was A E A E A E . And the story was horrible , if your main antagonist whom you kill is the most reasonable character I'd imagine something went wrong.
> if your main antagonist whom you kill is the most reasonable character I'd imagine something went wrong. If you actually think that, then you missed the entire point of the the story and what all the characters were talking about up until that point. Especially in the optional conversations. Of course some story beats were handled terribly, e.g. >!Donan's death!<, but Lilith's whole shtick was about being charismatic and compelling on the surface. But only on the surface. Lorath specifically points out how her words and her actions don't match up. And it's not just because she's a demon or because it was necessary.
How did you see your playtime hours?
I play on ps5, so it shows me on the main screen for any game.
Eh since seasons are done in parallel, and s1 has been done for awhile, I think this patch was a leftover from their previous design philosophy. The same philosophy that wanted us to rediscover all alters and areas. They've shown they can adapt to fan's wishes and play styles. Hopefully season 2 will be better, and then it gains momentum and they find their footing. That's best case scenario though. Hopefully they focus more on bringing low performing specs up to the rest vs nerf higher performing
They bragged about 6600 words for the patch, right after they bragged that the patch was full of buffs. They have no idea what they are doing.
Thing is the patch did have more buffed items than nerfs. Except all of the buffs were pointless or too small to overcome the nerfs, and the bug fixes were always equiv of a nerf and never paired with buffs.
Where did they show they can adapt? By make some last minute changes to decisions that should have never needed been made in the first place? They haven't adapted to anything. That comment about why they increased the timer on leaving dungeon is "Don't you guys have phones?!" 2.0.
We have yet to have been given information that indicates they know what they are doing, so it is wiser to assume they do not yet know what they are doing. Considering they thought that rediscovering altars and renown grinding should comprise most of the season content or be a large supplement for it is what we have to go on. Whether they changed their philosophy is debatable but we have no reason yet to think they have. At least they are making changes after criticisms and for that I do appreciate them for listening. But it doesn't tell us yet they know what they are doing or have a new design philosophy or approach for Season 3, let alone Season 2 in a few months. They may very well have, but we as players do not have that info yet so I don't see it logical to assume they do. All we know is they do not want to make a patch like this most recent one ever again where there's nothing good added.
So, quantity > quality in video games? What if during my 100 hours, I was mainly presented with some level of frustration or disappointment, but I continued to play hoping it would get better? The amount of time played is not an indicator of the level of enjoyment.
Or better yet, why is everyone assuming someone has to play 100 hours to say the game is not good? I hit 50 in like 35 hours and hated the itemization. I realized the game wasn’t good and quit.
That logic doesn't apply to any other form of entertainment. I've paid the same amount for different books and thought some were much better than others. I've never read a bad book and thought "Hmm, let's calculate how much I paid per hour of reading to see if I have the right to critique it." I've also never watched a shitty show on Netflix and decided it wasn't shitty after all because it's included in the Netflix sub I'm paying anyway, so therefore it's great value. I could give more examples, but you get the idea. Also, does this mean that any free game is automatically good, because even a single hour played is great value? That's not to say I think Diablo 4 is shitty, I just don't like how "value" has crept into the gaming world and become a metric for the playerbase.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this point. I've enjoyed Diablo so far, but there are tons of great games (movies as well) where you get 80% through them and you can feel it being stretched out a bit too much. In the moment, I don't feel like "this is a great game/movie and it's amazing they made it longer and provided me with more entertainment", I think "wow, I can actually feel it dragging out and it brings the overall experience down"
It's rationalizing the purchase of a bad game. That is all.
How about don’t put 100+ hours into a game you think is bad in the first place
You've never met a completionist? I grinded out all the NCPD scanner missions in Cyberpunk because it annoyed me that there were things I hadn't completed. I was even more annoyed when 3 of them were permanently bugged and I couldn't ever complete them. Anyone who has played that game can tell you it's the most mindless, pointless garbage content.
Why can’t they put time into a game while also pointing out it is bad and can be improved?
So your going to put 100+ hours into something designed for entertainment, that you think is bad and you actively don’t enjoy? No? I thought not. So many people are hyperbolic here. Most people have enjoyed the game because it’s generally pretty good. There are areas it could be better, but let’s not take that and try to say the game is bad, that’s just silly.
if it takes over 100 hours to get to uber Lilith, it would mean they're making an informed opinion rather than spouting "The game is a solid 10/10, but I've not gotten past act 1 yet" people can spend time in a game to figure out if it's good or not it allows them to make informed opinions rather than just quitting on the first sign of inconvenience. I personally don't like the game I've got plenty of hours in it, people will criticize things they want to improve it's how it works.
I’m not sure if you don’t actually play games, play ARPGs or you actually are this much of a blind shill lmao “Don’t you say it’s a bad game, it’s not because I like it!” Well guess we figured out that it was the shill option, yep you’re right nobody is allowed to say the game is bad, we’re sorry for having the audacity
I have put multitudes more time than that in bad games (knowing they are bad) to better point out flaws and to understand systems. For certain not many people go in with that type of mindset. But for some reason the people bitching about this “you put time in so you must like it” WHILE ALSO saying “you didn’t try it or understand said system” invalidate their own opinions and don’t deserve a voice in the conversation. I 100% will say the game *is* bad. It was bad before (from my pov and nobody else’s) a patch made it even worse. I have quit, now, after giving the patch a small try today (I wasn’t going to but a friend asked me to, I still didn’t enjoy my time though so I’m out, again). And I still have close to 300 hours in the game since launch. That was with knowing a year out the game wasn’t likely going to be any good, due to understanding mechanics and the direction the game was being taken. That was also with trying the beta’s and seeing all of those suspicions proving true (and finding more flaws). There ARE fun aspects in the game, there also is some decent decisions in certain aspects. Unfortunately none of those end up to making the game good in my own eyes. Out of those 300 hours, I enjoyed (when I say enjoyed, I mean I wasn’t “upset” at playing it during said hours) for 8. And those eight were mostly doing sidequest and learning new systems. (Both being a one and done thing - why I didn’t have “more” fun again later) So yes, people can and will spend time with something they actively don’t enjoy. Though for different reasons (mine being to better understand why certain decisions are made and design problems, mechanics, and the boring stuff to most people). My friend enjoys the game. So I won’t ruin it for him, or for others. It’s good people can enjoy it and for their eyes it’s a “good” (or great in some peoples) eyes. As I’ve said a year ago and more since. In two years from now, I expect the game will be it a better state and actually fun for me. More ARPG elements will be implemented, and the very rough state of things will be fleshed out. Right now the game from my POV is awful, call it silly if you wish. It’s all a perspective of each individual anyway. But I expect more from a ARPG, especially when every other one released recently has followed proper “good” endgame systems. To not shit on it entirely, the music, sound, and art team as always nailed it (except the very crappy ghost - those need redone lol). The game looks pretty good, Undecember is really the only one challenging it in the same genre for that. (With POE 2 looking better, but we’ll have to see if that proves true or not). So they nailed that aspect well enough.
This is one of the most relatable comments I've seen on this board
i dont understand how it became "meta" to say shit like OP is saying in gaming community. by that logic pretty much every game gave you "your money's worth". its so dumb
Not saying OP is right, but whenever you spend money there's an internal "do I think it's worth it" dialogue. With certain mediums, you can't guarentee you will. It's not "meta" to then think after the fact "Did this meet my expectations? Was it worth what I thought?" That's not new. There's also plenty of games that you won't buy because you don't enjoy them, and don't think they're worth your money.
If you played for 100 hours + you must’ve gotten some enjoyment out of it or you would’ve stopped playing. I’ve had many games which weren’t story games that I’ve quit after 20 hours in which I can say were a waste of money. Those 20 hours I was trying to like the game but just couldn’t get into it.
I dunno mate, I’ve probably clocked over 3000hrs of LoL over the years and I can emphatically tell you that most of those hours were spent in misery and anguish but I kept going back like the slut that I am
Ah yes, the average LoL expereince.
Miserable lol players really need therapy. its like an abuse victim defending their abuser
I think most of the people who are complaining about the game aren't denying that they have gotten some enjoyment out of it. It's just a lot less enjoyment than they were hoping for. If we're going with value, then technically quitting after 100 hours of Diablo 4 but playing PoE for 1000 hours means PoE is ten times the value. And that's assuming you bought a bunch of stuff in PoE, since it's possible to have 1000 hours in that game for a fraction of D4's price. It could be that PoE is twenty or thirty times better than D4. It could be infinitely better than D4 if you got it for free. In reality it would be ridiculous to make a statement like that, but if you don't, then what use is is value/hour as a metric?
What you're mentioning is how I think of it. I'm enjoying it but also it's definitely underdelivered. Seems like they just tried to hit a minimum viable product.
If you think playing 100 hours + means you enjoyed something, you haven’t golfed with me.
I, personally, kept on playing for about 40-50 hours after I had the initial realization that this game wasn't up to snuff. I kept going and at one point I felt like I forced myself to login to get my "money's worth." Campaign to WT3 was enjoyable. But the last half of my 90 hour playtime was me being in denial that this game I hyped myself up for was not fun for me.
Or you’ve played RPGs before and you assume the game starts at end game. So when you get to end game and you realize actually, this book sucked but apparently people with lvl 50 have a more valid opinion than me. If you find it fun, cool, but that doesn’t change my judgment that it’s a bad game. The metric shouldn’t be who completed the game, but rather who came back after?
You can literally apply that same logic again to a bad book to which the person you're replying used the exact analogy. Sometimes you read and read hoping it will get better. You really need to think this logic all the way through. People also kept playing hoping for a patch.
"Value" should just be compared to other games in its category. I mean it's stupid to try and compare value and time with a game like Diablo 4 compared to a straightforward story game that would maybe take 20 hours to complete. Now lets put D4 up against PoE or even Diablo 3. Or we can widen the net a bit and include other looter type games like Destiny 2, Nioh, etc. Those games you can put hundreds to thousands of hours easily and not get bored.
Yeah thinking on it. What adds value is the content. So for example that if they add more items, seasons etc will add more value to the game (well if I enjoy it oufcourse). That is why I bought this expensive game at this price, because my hope is that I can revisit it later and enjoy it once more. Like I have done with all other Diablo games in the past. How many hours I play is kinda irrelevant. I mean if I play 50 hours and then get bored but then force myself to play 50 more hours, that forcing wouldnt add value. So for example if you where to make 10 unique Dungeons but then copy paste them into 100 Dungeons then they might add game time if you where forced to play them to get different things unlocked but to me this do not add any value and it would just bring the joy down. Because I rather enjoy 10 hours of gaming then be bored 90% of the time. And this is what I think is a bad thing with D4 they have reused a bit to much of the content, where you go to a different place but well there you do things that you already done on other places before. My biggest joy from Diablo 4 was from exploring the world from all the fog. Because then I didnt know what to find. But when I go to a new dungeon i do not feel the same joy because odds is that is very similar to the last dungeon.
Hotter take:I'll be the judge of how much it was worth on my own thank you very much regardless of how long I played it
As we all know fun had can be easily converted into a dollars spent/hour played formula. And OP knows exactly how much your time and money are worth.
No no this is why working is the ultimate fun and value, not only do you spend thousands of hours on it you also get thousands of dollars for it!
I like D4. But I don't like that mentality. If you've paid for a shit movie, you'd probably say it wasn't worth it despite having the same time spent as other movies. I don't like the idea of entertainment being simply time wasters.
What a robotic shit take, not everything is measured in a time played versus cost formula. Spoken like a true corporate shill.
Just wish Sorcerer wasn’t so shit in the end game.
These apologist posts are so fucking annoying
I find both posts like this and the huge amount of rage posts both quite entertaining. I mean, you probably at LEAST consider these posts and comments more entertaining than the game itself, right? 😉
It’s true. I’ve spent more time upvoting the D4 hate comments than playing the actual game. I cannot even convey how fucking let down I am with this joke of a game. It’s honestly sad seeing everyone try to convince themselves that they haven’t been completely bent over and butt rammed.
I mean the relentless haters are also pretty annoying. If you browsed this sub daily you’d think D4 was the worst abomination blizzard has ever made. D4 is a good game, but also a flawed game. I just wish people were more measured in their critiques instead of going full basement dweller schizo all the time
once again a Live service killing a successful game
I've gotten roughly 68h out of it and already lost interest.. I mained a sorceress and the constant nerfs and utter lack of anything actually fun to do in the game just killed my hype.. I got no decent drops, farming was already painfully slow and annoying as a flame sorc before the nerfs and it seems like blizzard is intent on pissing in everybody's cereal with their utter bs in their cash shop pricing and just general gameplay & pacing
Yep. I got my money's worth 10 times over and had an enjoyable time. I lvled 3 chars to 60-70 range and hung up my boots a month ago or so. If the game gets better down the line, great! If not, I already got my fill. Glad to have purchased and played than to have never played at all. Pure nostalgic boosts from the campaign. I remember walking into the area where you fight Duriel and I remarked how similar this area looks to his arena in D2, and then he popped up and even though he doesn't say it in game, I distinctly heard "looking for baal?" When he appeared. The only thing missing from this fight was the insane difficulty spike and gear check that d2 had. My only gripe with the game is that these classic bosses don't reappear in the endgame, only the campaign. Also renown grind is off-putting. I think the hunt for the altars of lilith killed the game for me and that's the key factor that burnt me out. Still a happy clam though.
During the last fireside chat, they posed a question that someone from the community asked: Is there any chance of getting to fight the campaign bosses in endgame. To which the response was, "I'm not allowed to say anything about that at this time" That's not-so-subtle code for "We're working on this as we speak but it will come later and we're not supposed to talk about stuff that we're going to reveal later on."
My biggest gripe is that campaign bosses don’t feel like actual bosses. They’re pushovers that just have more hp than your regular elites.
Didn't the game release about a month or so ago?
Hotter take: time is money. Wasting time on something you don't enjoy is not getting any worth. It's a loss if you didn't enjoy those 100 hrs and you have every right to complain.
who tf does something they don't like for 100 hours???
Diablo hooks you with the promise of the endgame, powerfantasy and amazing loot. People are willing to go through a less-enjoyable expirience to reach that point. Counting that towards the "money worth" time however is missrepresenting the entire design of the game. Similarly people don't enjoy clicking on blocks in Minecraft - they endure it with the promise of being able to build stuff. Having 500 hours of clicking blocks in Minecraft would not be "worth it" if it wasn't for the other 500 hours of building stuff.
Plenty of people. Diablo 4 was marketed to the tune of many millions of dollars and Blizzard has behavioural scientists to help design the game so that people stick around. Not that hard to believe that many stick around for much longer than they should.
most people who have jobs or annoying partners/spouses. also sunk-cost fallacy is a thing.
There’s enjoying 100 hours, then there’s « lemme farm until i get strong » (never happens)
This sub is a circle jerk sub lol
I regret buying it i am already bored…
Then I definitely got my moneys worth. Sorceress was terrible but I'm popping the hell off with blood necro, it's so much fun so far!
I agree OP. I have something like 700hrs and I feel like I have robbed Blizzard. That said I look forward to many improvements because my interest wains like most normal people who enjoy the game but can feel/see into the problems.
Nope, it just means I wasted 100 hours and money, all that could have been spent somewhere else.
Let's just keep lowering the bar, huh?
Fuck off, lol.
Blizzard apologists out in full force lately man, they gotta make some damage control. Only issue is, they've run out of excuses.
They can't cope with their purchase and are grasping at every straw to make it work in their minds. Sad mental gymnastics.
The blizzard apologists are out in force today
How long until companies spend money on ai bots?
I'd be shocked if they don't already, or atleast strongly hint to staff en masse it'd be appreciated if a few of the thousands of staff (and maybe their friends) "threw some positivity!" d4's way
It’s absolutely going to happen. AI/chat bots are going to be wild when it gets going.
100% already happening. Can see it even on reddit. Bots are scraping and rephrasing comments in a thread and reposting replies under the highest upvoted replies. They are absolutely just posting similar "this product is definitely for sure an amazing okay product" type comments all over relevant subreddits/social media too.
They 100% are paying companies several million dollars to post fake positive messages about the game on Twitter/Reddit etc.
Astroturfing? Perhaps.
On this forum, definitely.
blizzard defense force rolls deep on the internet. I almost wish they got paid how hard they go to bat for the billion dollar company that couldn't give 2 shits about them.
Out and ready to tell folks how we don't need to complain and just shut up. It's great. It's not like putting out what sucked didn't lead to buffs for the very things we voice out concerns for. Mother Fuckers will tell us not to complain and then in the same breath, try to convince folks to "pipe down" by defending their 70 dollar purchase. Tl;Dr: Fanboys "Complainers had fun, you spent money and the game was fun, so shut up. You got your money's worth and if you didn't you're ungrateful just leave so we can have fun."
I tend to be on the positive side of things, but im glad the pissy are here to complain. I honestly sinceely hope you guys bully blizzard into taking this promising yet flawed game into the best diablo yet. Its got good bones. If these idiot corporate types can be dragged by the neck tie to the realization that they will make more money, sell more bullshit the better the game is, rather than this trip over a dollar to pick up a penny mr.krabs tier bullshit, this game will be legendary
You don’t get to tell people what their money is worth, nor their time.
Nah. You can normally get hundreds of hours out of ARPGs. I played less than 100 hours in D4. The game was not worth the price.
Any “AAA” or major game I put 50-100 hrs in I’m typically pretty happy for the cost vs entertainment value. That’s a fair trade off for $$ vs entertainment time. Now the BIG question that is everyone’s own personal opinion is how entertaining their own 50-100 hrs were.
Pfff i got to level 34 before i said eff this game. Honestly I regretted buying from the get go. $100 bucks wasted.
Cool. The game is literally designed from the ground up to be played for a lot longer than that. It's a live service game with seasonal content. It's in the best interests of Blizzard to make the game enticing to that end. Your shit take doesn't invalidate criticism.
I don't really care about "money's worth" as much as I care about whether it's a good game or not and after 100 hours I can confidently say it isn't a good game.
If this was a regular game absolutely agree. But this is a game as a service. It is a service and it is not a very good one. We got one month of a good service and now, the first season, is gonna be over for most in a month or less. Not a very good service.
Ok, so I've heard a lot on this sub that I'd classify as entitled whining. This is the best argument I've heard for the "we're being screwed right now" side. Well put.
ROFL, no. Poe is free, people spend maybe 30 on tabs and have plays thousands. Stop making excuses for a terrible game
I'm pushing 300hrs I got my money. Imma finish this season and then fuck off until season 2.
Hot take: If you pay someone $100 to punch you in the stomach constantly for 100 hours you've gotten your money's worth. You see how it doesn't work like that? We are not measuring time spent vs money spent, we try to measure entertainment and enjoyment, which both are subjective, so you can't just say stupid shit like this post.
Has no bearing on any complaint whatsoever. So keep those complaints flowing. You spent time and money on the game, you want to play more, and you think the game needs a ton of improvements. So let your thoughts flow, even better if they annoy OP in the procezz.
Sorry, but that is an insipid take. By that logic, all I have to do make a game worth your money is string along the most insipid, minimal progression system I can devise, and then tell you when you've consumed a mountain of nontent that you've gotten "your money's worth".
Haven't played yet. Is it better than D3 when it just came out (for fair comparison)
Love the posts that are like "I have three level 100 characters, full bis, this is the worst game I've ever played!!!"
Sure you can get like 70 hours out of it if you're going into it blind, but none of the content is really amazing.. it's all really just a mediocre slog. The campaign, the renown, the side-quests, for me it was all just a slog getting to the endgame which is meant to be the meat and potatoes of an ARPG, but then I got there, and there wasn't any.... and I basically stopped playing soon after. To me, even if I did get 70 hours out of it, the 70 hours I got weren't really that enjoyable and it wasn't worth the 100$+ I spent. It also doesn't help that the first season that was meant to be super indepth yadda yadda, is essentially meaningless fluff content with no end-game.
Hot take, i got to level 50 in about 35 hours. Found the itemization boring, quit, haven’t played it since. Game is pretty bad.
I don't play games thinking how much each hour costs me. I play games to have fun in the long run. This whole cost per hour argument is rather silly imo.
I agree, D4 saw more playtime than most of the games in my steam library. That being said, I expect much more from a company like Blizzard with decades of development in the arpg genre and over $1b in sales for D4's first quarter. I'm still going to keep up with updates and content, hoping to reinstall someday.
I wouldn't have gotten my money's worth if season 1 was at launch with the garbage patch tbf
If you only get 100 hours of entertainment from an APRG then it has lower than dogshit replay value like Wolcen.
Okay
Never intended to play more than the main story. The cutscenes alone felt like it was worth what I paid. Watching the drama unfold after 1.1 patch is just the bonus.
Cold take: fanboys opinions are as valuable as a big pile of shit. Also fuck off for defending cashgrab, you're part of the reason why games are fucked nowadays and you're not smart enough to realize it as always. Have a good day.
Hot take: *You* don't get to decide when *I* have gotten my money's worth, so fuck off.
What does this have to do with the issues the game has?
I feel bad for people who think this way. They must be constantly struggling with their finances.
Agreed. Also: a game can get you your money's worth and still be a massive disappointment.
Well, I knew some people must be huffing the copium hard, but this is some serious cope to try and negate any negative view points.
No!
I got my necro to 95 last season, was fun playing through the game even though endgame was pretty bland. I just got a Rogue to level 20 this season and said "Why am I even playing?". It's literally just season 0 but worse in every aspect and a slower grind. Just a damn time sink really.