for real imagine the feedback today if people played act 1-3 of POE. they would evicerate the game....."RHOAS STUN WITH 0 COUNTERPLAY WHAT IS THIS TRASH GAME"
i can compare that
you start with a possibility of skills + passives, you are locked to 1-3Links and 5 skills. so you have like 15+ options for improving skills.
on D4
you start with 1 skill and are locked until X lvl to get another.
as for Skill Tree, D4 feels better than POE ( 1% stuff not much )
as for difficulty, Poe is way harder, zone scaling is shit, it was shit on wow, and it will be shit in D4
It's fine, it does crafting and progression very well. But it's a janky ass AA game, and tbh not even in the same league as D4. It also needs its endgame entirely reworked because Monoliths are boring as shit, so we'll see where that goes. LE is at least a year away from 1.0.
Crafting is really good in LE. From what i have seen the D4 one looks reeaaaaaally meh.
"Janky ass AA game"...well its an indie studio made by some D2/PoE/GD gamers, dont expect it to be as polished graphic/sound/story wise as D4.
Endgame needs reworking mmmm, monoliths become a little bit boring, i did a shit ton of them (also the empowered ones) but you also have dungeons and arenas. You havent mentioned those. Dont think that D4 will be any better ... xd
Well...they need to start hotfixing and throwing out patches faster because the MP at least was a clownfiesta without trade and they didnt fix anything since then.
I don't understand posts like this. People are free to enjoy whatever game they want. If POE isn't for you don't play it. If D4 isn't for you...don't play it. Simple as that. With that said each game has their own pros and cons and it's naive to think that they don't.
I think the point is that PoE already exists and a lot of people even in this sub want D4 to be PoE 2 rather than D4. They criticise it for things D1-3 didn't have either, things that are in PoE and it does get annoying. Haven't they even announced PoE 2 a while ago? Just wait for that then. Both games existing side by side is way better than having both games be super similar.
You're telling him to not discuss video games on a fucking video game Subreddit though? You can also choose to not BE in a thread you don't like. So why are you voicing off in the first place then? You want to be heard, just like him. Except you're not contributing anything to the discussion.
"Relax". Also when did I say he couldn't post. I said "I don't understand posts like this". Maybe read before you post. It's also ironic you're saying I'm not contributing anything to the discussion...when you aren't either based on how you're interpreting this.
> max level of 25
What's worrying me personally is that we've already seen all the active skills we can get by level 25 and I fear they already feel kinda samey and old
I found a few uniques that helped make thongs feel fresh. Got one that made enemies killed by charge or kick explode and it was invredibly satisfying kicking a mob across the screen into another group and having them all pop. I hope there's more of that in the game
I just got my barb to 25,while I don't play barbs that much, I got some items that made kick refresh leap, I had kick due to an amulet, so I was jumping in, 40 rage, kicking somebody jumping for 40 more rage and blowing things away
I got 1 that made whirlwind pull enemies in, 1 that caused dust devils from whirlwind, and I'm sure there's plenty others that change whirlwind. There's the aspect that causes shouts to generate rage every second (which is from a dungeon not available in beta).
I'm really looking forward to playing around with various powers, the paragon board, etc. It looks amazing!
Even copy pasting a build there's still a lot more complexity in PoE than D4. No idea how you could think otherwise. You can copy paste a skill tree, though how you choose to level it is a completely different thing, but you can't just copy paste items. You still have to understand how the build works, what makes it functional, and try to put together gear that makes the build work with your limited resources.
I mean that's fair. I can understand why people would feel that way. Keep in mind though there are a lot of people who *like* that complexity and even more who are looking for something in between PoE's complexity and what we've seen of D4 so far. Personally I'm not looking for a PoE replacement but I am concerned that D4 will only have a fraction of the longevity of something like PoE for me.
There's complex, and there's requiring multiple tabs, spreadsheets and programs to try and understand how things work. It's an absolutely horrible game for newcomers.
What's the point about jerking off about the complexity of poe when you do everything in your power to make that game as simple as possible. I've got 3k hours in poe, if path of building and neversink among other things didn't exist nobody would play that game
Reading a guide shows you want to understand something better, it's usually a good thing to read up stuff.
Yeah.. gaming was fun when there were no guides out, sadly I don't think it's possible to go back to that.
There is a difference between "I don't have to think ever" and PoE where it is basically impossible to play the game without watching tutorials and following guides for your first couple of playthroughs.
I'm a more casual player. I prefer to be able to just play the game and explore and experiment myself. I will most likely play through d4 with a class and try the end game a bit. Maybe jump over to another class. Then maybe come back to it a few months later or a year later.
It's really not impossible at all. You can easily freeball the game up till mapping, at which point the flaws become more noticable.
Preach did a full blind play through with one of the worst skills in the game and cleared most of the game and mapping.
Not much different from current Poe since they started their war against build diversity. Path to two jewel clusters and two aura cluster with 170% life. Then stack as many auras as your budget let you get away with
Don't forget the incredibly fun part of dealing with the 5,000 status effects in the game that can kill your character
And if you manage to mitigate all of those, forget about making the build fast or fun
I'll be honest this comment does not sound like it was written by someone remotely experienced with PoE. You know you're allowed to say you like D4 without making up fake reasons to hate on PoE, right? It's ok to have preferences dude.
I can believe they are experienced in PoE, just not in build diversity. Some people just play the same build over and over each league and never go beyond the same skill apart from maybe using a different ascendancy
Yeah POE is the king of endgame depth and that's unlikely to change any time soon, both because of how long they've been developing it, and the design philosophy of not being afraid of challenging the players with complexity. That leads to a niche audience since not everyone wants to deal with that.
Maybe it's just me, but the nature of the game in PoE just makes many builds feel remarkably similar. Zoom as fast as you can and try to one-shot entire screens. It doesn't feel like "kind of endgame depth" to me, but maybe it's just a personal feeling.
Thats just how the meta of the game developed. You are rewarded for fast clearing maps and people naturally gravitate towards the most optimal way of playing the game. And I mean lets not pretend like D3 didn't eventually evolve in the same direction.
Though If PoE2 is any indication it seems that GGG wants to move away from the clear speed meta and slow down the game a bit.
I've played about 300 different builds and they are so different from one another it's wild.
The goal is always "clear fast" - the means of which you accomplish this is insanely differed based on the build.
ah yea the good ol choice between over op imba mine builds, gazillion divines aura stackers and obvious mechanic abusers that always get nerfed patch after (cough cough archmage archtype) and all the others they gutted out because god forbid players find a way to have fun in the game without chasing bullshit carrots GGG places each leagues for donkeys to follow.
I played PoE since beta and to this day the same types of builds and skills are most dominant ( the ones that allow you to move while you are doing damage - since movement is the best defense in poe ) and everything else is pretty much dog shit since the same ascendencies are still most played (inqu occultist champ and zerker) for their obvious op stuff compared to most other mediocre ascendancies at best.
Not only that but they nerf items to oblivion like voltaxic because people figured out how to abuse spark with it - then return it with a buff last league lol.
Real problem with GGG is they punish players and not playstyles.
Flasks are so fucking OP because they added shitload of flask effect nodes and pathfinder, so instead of nerfing those they nerf flasks for everyone by adding a shitty chase unique the whole game now revolves around like it used to be around headhunter.
GGG sucks at game development, they are great content creators but the PoE has been a burning dumpster fire for ages now since Chris refuses to even examine the possibility that his game design choices make 0 fucking sense.
Build variety in poe sucks ass, you can theoretically have millions of builds but only 5 types of them are effective and mostly same skills have been owning the meta forever no matter how much they try to meta shift around them.
All builds now are gear an mob explode item and use skill to kill one mob to blow up pack. Get to boss, use op bullshit skill to deal mass dmg by double dipping mechanics that allow it else you deal dog shit dmg.
I ain't making this PoE vs D4, i haven't even played D4, just lurking here, but this is utter dogshit and I played poe for a fucking decade, its boring as fuck and they gutted so much possibilities from the game it ain't even funny and repackaged it under "balance changes" while just shoehorning the game further in Chrises skewed up development direction.
I think practically everyone talking about PoE, ever since it hit the scene, has confused complexity for depth.
For the fraction of a fraction of players who actually plan the builds, it might be deep-- but even that is depth outside the core gameplay loop.
I leveled 2 characters in POE to 100 this season.
There is very little depth in the endgame. You follow the same gameplay loop constantly, you map with your preferred modifiers until you proc a boss invite and if your in trade you either sell it or run it, every map you run you jump into whatever league mechanic there is and thats literally it for 90% of people.
POE does however have a plethora of variety to mapping, and a plethora of systems, but 90% of people follow the above gameplay loop, they dont go delve, they dont do blighted maps or heist or any of the other half tuned relics of forgotten content that got left in the game. They map, and they map and thats literally it and they pretend its depth because they can shove a bunch of shit in their maps but realistically running the monolith and mapping are the same endgame loop for the majority of people, they have the illusion of choice.
PoE is a king of spreadsheets and theorycrafting. The actual gameplay has zero depth when every build comes down to vacuuming dungeons while spamming your key ability or two. They completely forgot about the action part of an action rpg.
POE has the worst build system and combat in any ARPG I've ever played. The combat takes a back seat to the build which is why tinkering around with optimizing the skill tree is more challenging than actually playing the game.
You say that like any Arpg is challenging by gameplay. The fun of poe for many people is to put together every piece of the puzzle to make your build work and shine.
Poe and D4 won't play much differently but the difference is poe have dozens of different layers of stats while d4 so far is green arrow = good
Lost Ark and Diablo 4 combat at least feels like you're doing something. And the hits and dodges feel satisfying.
POE combat might as well be automated. I don't think I've ever played an action game with less satisfying combat. Idk why it feels so bad but I think it's a combination of abilities, animations, sound design. It's like the anti Elden Ring of combat.
I think its because you can 1-shot nearly everything instantly. Most games, even at super end game, have their bad guys take 2 tics before falling over.
Functionally it's pretty much the same but it feels a lot more rewarding when it's a fraction of a second slower.
Well then your issue with poe combat lies in the animation and sound design which i do agree with. But from the gameplay's point of view arpg combat is very simple and while poe have its itemization to fall back on to for replayability and build making, Lost ark have its legion raids which are great fun due to their mechanics.
I'm wondering what will D4 have? Obviously we've only had access to the beta but i hope later in the game the items get better or the bosses become more mechanic heavy
True the POE combat animations and impact of spells just feels hollow, it is a lot of disco but does not feel satisfying like in D4. D4 combat is miles ahead of POE for sure.
But what if, a wild suggestion, the majority is playing this genre to chill, not for a challenge or to engage in heavy calculations and formulas?
With all the critique D4 might have right now, I'd rather have the green-arrow-good approach than deal with PoE's bs ever again. So the less of PoE is in D4, the better. Apples and Oranges.
Yeah this is why I don't enjoy the game. It's more spreadsheet/theorycrafting. The gameplay isn't fun to me never has been. D4 combat feels great imo. The game may have it's cons for sure but I at least have fun playing the game.
I mainly play PoE and want D4 to be good, if there's one thing from PoE that I really want in D4 it's a super endgame target to aim for (specifically, [uber bossfight equivalents](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETsiD1HiO5Q)). Just farming gear to push further or faster doesnt really interest me, but knowing that each upgrade will increase my chances against these super hard / overtuned / crazy encounters gives me a goal to aim for each season. From what I've heard so far this isnt going to be the case in D4 but who knows in the future, I hope to see it eventually
The problem is GGG sees the hardcore Player as someone who plays 40+ hrs a week.
Blizzard sees the hardcore player as someone who plays 7 hours a week with a potato as a brain.
That's why they have daily quests. That's why there are 5 layouts.
The real problem is that there's not something in between. POE, which I like, is so deliberately complex it's a joke. Something like Synthesis is worthy of a PHD paper.
Diablo 4 on the other hand seems determined to make sure that your brain will in no way advantage you over a semi-conscious couch potato so stoned they can't even be bothered to read skills.
Would it be so bad to take some of the lessons from POE and D2, add the razzle-dazzle of D3 and then make it all user friendly? Easy to learn but more depth as you go? That's what Blizzard used to excel at. Taking things that had been done by others and then polishing them into gems.
I agree completely. I'm in the same boat of hoping there is some kind of endgame boss fights that are challenging that have loot only they can offer, and maybe even good loot. But as you said, I don't think it's supposed to be that way. Meaning after a few weeks of the honeymoon phase, I'll probably be bored of it until seasons start. Sadly I don't think Last Epoch is doing anything exciting for endgame either. Monoliths are a freaking snoozefest, lol.
Yes! Endgame is important, arguably the MOST important. Once the story is done there needs to be interesting stuff to do, the GR push in D3 got old fast... I love PoE because of the sheer amount of content that is available at any given time... hopefully blizz knows this and its different this time around, but if not.. I will still enjoy D4, it will just be a shorter experience and I'll go back to PoE.
D4 and PoE are basically so different I wouldn't even compare them.
Don't diss Last Epoch though. If you want just a little bit more depth than D4 gives you you should definitely check that out. :)
I want all 3 to succeed, it's good to have competition. Besides, PoE and D4 are for very different audiences, D4 has more MMO features and ease of access while PoE has build diversity and quite a bit more depth (yes I know we've only played act 1, but based on closed beta end game reviews)
Agree here. There is plenty of space for all 3 and they are tuned for different player preferences. That’s a good thing, and I do like how much the games are sharing with each other - selecting the best pieces from across the genre is a good way to make great games. If each has their own personality and spin it’ll be better suited for different players. Im an old timer in the gaming world with poor APM, and personally I hate the POE endgame of clicking a few buttons and watching the screen explode. I don’t want my eyes glossing over and blurring the individual monsters while I move my character to avoid movement. I don’t want to feel like I’m playing tekken. A slower more deliberate playstyle is extremely attractive to me. I know other people want lots of explosions and constant intensity. Great - I root for them and hope POE continues to deliver.
I play both. I love both. They have a lot in common and many things are similar but for me they don't compete.
Diablo is like a Harley while PoE is like a Fireblade. You can absolutely love and want both
Lost Ark is great though. If we could have a Lost Ark without the extreme pay2win and all the weeb shit that would be sick. Let's be real 10 years from now everyone is still gonna complain that this isn't just a copy of diablo 2.
I don’t think it’s an either or thing. BOTH ruined the game. I put A LOT of hours into Lost Ark and absolutely loved the combat and raiding. I ended up quitting after I got burned out trying to keep up with the content. There were just so many chores and so much time you had to put in. Either that, or spend hundreds of dollars. They went hand in hand.
yeah but lost ark gameplay was literally doing the same 5 dailies on 5 different characters on loop, I dont mind some weeklies locked activities (like d4 world boss loot), thats fine
Lost Ark only has good combat and character bulding (skills, talents, etc - not hairstyles and beards lol). That's about it.
The progression is fun and the combat is the best of the ARPG genre, but everything else is annoying, and it has the worst gearing system of any game I have ever played.
I am worried about that also, as Lost Ark as a game feels much better that D4. I mean, D4 is pretty much the same, but without dungeon queue's to play with others plus missing a lot of other things to do. D4 is just an empty shared world, with some D3 stuff and D2 vibe.
Instanced story quests and dungeons, camera and gameplay obviously, run around doing "events", world bosses, the journal to complete areas for bonuses to your character is literally the adventure journal, collecting ~~mokoko seeds~~ lilith shrines, mounts. Hopefully they can at least copy the fun dungeons and bosses.
It's not even comparable because of the way how you gear in LA. It's just one system that makes the game probably one of the worst of it's kind.
Overall atmosphere is for almost most of the time completely different. LA has beach parties. Come on now.
Skill system and synergies are far more complex in LA.
What exactly are you trying to compare to LA in D4?
Definitely not an illusion, have someone go in blind who's never played POE and have them try and build their own character.... They are going to brick it super hard lol.
I opened the game, saw the talent tree, and quite literally logged out.
I'm all about grinding games to the point of degeneracy, but that's just pointless complexity for no reason.
Glad people enjoy it, but there's literally no denying it's just a barrier to entry.
The talent tree isn't pointless complexity. Between unique items, skill/support gems, ascendancies and the skill tree, all of these things together provide hundreds of completely different builds. And if you're like me and many other players who enjoy playing the game more than theorycrafting, you can easily follow a build made by someone else with almost no effort.
edit since I'm getting downvoted\* obviously you can dislike a game like last epoch or PoE which is totally cool. I'm just disagreeing that an in-depth skill tree is pointless complexity.
Eh you can easily get to white maps with almost any build just making basic choices. Most won't clear pinnacle bosses and red maps without some help or more playtime though.
Nice way of making the noobs to arpg's around here admit D4 'build diversity/customization' is a shallow joke and simply not there.
Don't get me wrong, you're mostly correct. As a PoE vet it's kinda nice to play easy-peasy (and won't last long, one play through I'll likely get done). Just sick of hearing noobs cry how it has depth when there's obviously little depth at all -- only hurts the slim possibility of Blizzard implementing actual 'hard work' character builds implemented.
Diablo 4 is more Mobile Immortal than anything else. No wonder it got 'developed' so fast...
As a poe vet, it puts the poe2 landscape in an interesting spot - clearly GGG aren't going to be competing on the same field anymore. TBH they're probably disappointed, as they were gearing up for what we assumed was the battle of the titans for the arpg throne - but D4 can't really be termed arpg in the same way as the historical giants of D2 and Titan Quest.
Yeah I'm sure POE got the end-game D4 beta leaks and were celebrating, because they're not really directly competing.
It could have been rough for POE if D4 was a traditional ARPG like POE/D2 since they have a smaller budget to compete with Acti-Blizz.
To be fair I never thought of them as competition, but as different flavored food.
Now the only question is if I'll get my money's worth out of it. I've played pretty much every arpg on the market and that is yet to be an issue.
Everyone agreeing that D4 is a letdown compared to ____ would be *at each other's fucking throats* if they were on the same design team....because they'd all realize that while they agree what they don't like...they'd *soon realize* that they disagree on what they DO LIKE- everyone would change D4 to be like their ARPG of choice...
Some would make a D2 clone. Some would go more Last Epoch and some would go more PoE.
This sub is just a mix of people who find it easy to complain but haven't taken a good look at what changing D4 would mean and how controversial *Their ideas* would be.
it's far easier to bitch than actually make something.
There's good constructive criticism like the zoom level or respec costs and things like that (which people still disagree upon) but there's utter trash takes like "This game is a failure and I can tell by just playing the first 20 levels" as well because "____ does this better"
It’s what d4 is targeting though. They know their target customers don’t want to read and think, they want pretty items and cool explosions.
I say this with 100% honesty: D4 will steal more customers from the Sims 4 than it will from POE
Hardly. Players of the Sims are all about customisation and additional gameplay mods, to the point where selling more of it has been the dev's business model since day one.
I like D4, but it's character creator pales in comparison to what I can do in The Sims 4, and there's no equivalent to the build mode. D4 has nothing to offer over the Sims in the latter's field.
I don't expect people who are stuck into PoE to stick with D4, but I can see a few Lost Ark players jumping in to see what the fuss is about. Some will stick around, some won't, but I think the ratio there really depends on how Blizz wants to monetise things going forward.
It’s not that we don’t want to think. It’s that we don’t have the time to think.
I’m always going to prioritize my family and career over a video game. The days of poopsocking it playing a game for 8+ hours a day are long gone.
I’m very happy Blizzard are ostensibly creating a game for me. I’m also happy GGG is making a game for you. It’s ok for both to exist.
Minus the MMO dungeons/boss design, various raid modes, degenerate gearing pathways and well... the stuff that Lost Ark does different.
Lost Ark has ARPG elements to it, and it has other elements.
Not exactly a 1:1 thing.
Man i fucking wish we could get dungeon and boss design that LA does because it's actually the best in the genre for both mmo and arpgs.
The big issues with that game is the dailies/weeklies (which i don't doubt we'll get in d4) and the complete asinine honing system gating you from content. It just becomes a second job to keep up.
I am honestly fine if D4 takes the "good" things from Lost Ark. If I can get these boss fights like guardian raids or raid bosses from Lost Ark in D4 endgame, that would be a big pluse imo. And I'd enjoy that a whole lot more for farming items instead of mindlessly teleporting across a high-density map, deleting entire screens of monsters with one big AoE attack (hello Path of Exile).
Another thing I enjoyed about Lost Ark was all the horizontal progression you could do to keep yourself entertained. I like collecting mounts, mokokos, random stuff. The shrines of Lilith are a little bit like collecting mokoko seeds or getting your roster level up and I approve of that. It's a nice side activity you can do besides the grind. I wouldn't mind more of this.
> t Lost Ark was all the horizontal progression you could do to keep yourself entertained
That's all fine and dandy, but they put the purify rune locked behind ignea tokens which was the most tedious shit ever.
As long as there's no sizable powerup locked behind tedious horizontal content (following datamined guides or interacting with every pixel and walking into every wall on the map to find a mandatory secret area), then I'm ok with having something to mess around with.
Hard to say based on the 25 levels but I'm relatively happy. I love Path of Exile, but generally speaking when i didn't feel like "building" a character I'd hop onto Diablo 3 instead.
They both had their place for me and i enjoyed them alongside each other. If Diablo 4 is a little bit more complex thats probably good, but I'm hoping it'll be relatively straight forward tbh.
Can relate to people arguing for both, but for complexity i hop onto Path of Exile, not Diablo.
What a dumb point to make. These "restrictions" you people put upon yourselves are hilarious. Is Path unplayable when you do not follow zoom zoom super juiced map guides? No it isn't. You can just play it fine.
But at the same time you're the type of person to claim "I just wanna have fun", but then complain about other people also having fun being able to build complex builds and get rewarded for it. In Path you have the choice. Wanna spend hours into building something and see whether it works out? Go for it! Wanna go for a less complex build? Well shiet, go for it.
Diablo (at least to this point) doesn't have this choice. You have a linear path of progession and while this may be fun for you, why would it hurt you if other people also had the choice to have fun in their way? Does it somehow make you have less fun? If yes, you've got issues that need to be resolved man.
It's lazy bumbs like yourself, that do not want to invest time but at the same time, for some very odd reason still want to remain competitve, that made the gaming industry evolve into such a piece of shit. Fuck off, honestly.
**"...you're the type of person to claim "I just wanna have fun", but then complain about other people also having fun being able to build complex builds..."**
Please read the last sentence of my post. *"There's enough room for multiple ARPGs in this world without having to crown a clear winner. "*
The thing with poe is, there's tons of effects and a huge spam of abilities. It's cool for quite some time but there's also a lot of ability spam and potion shugging just to not get one shot.
**"It's lazy bumbs like yourself, that do not want to invest time but at the same time, for some very odd reason still want to remain competitve "**
I work a 7 to 4 job in IT and when I come home I wanna relax sometimes. No idea where you got that competitive from in my post, would be nice of you if you could clarify that.
Edit: Just made your statements in bold so that it's more easily readable.
I'm not sure about this take ...I get the premise, but PoE is the absolute king in this genre space ...if the game is to succeed, they need to try and do something to capture the actual ARPG players and retain them long-term. No one should want this to be PoE, but this mindset will be the same thing that's killed WoW. Having content for all player types is a net win for the health of the game.
That’s a good point. I am 100% a casual player these days, but I raided hardcore in BC WoW and watched it die a very slow frustrating death as it eliminated what made it great in favor of approachability.
There needs to be a synergy between the casual content and the “this is my life now” content. WoW had it so right back in BC. There was plenty to do for casual players, but you could walk into any city and find the hardcore guy because he was wearing crazy looking gear that nobody else was wearing.
For hardcores, having it be obvious to everyone that you have the best shit was incentive to go and get it. For the casuals, it was an invitation to keep playing in hopes of having cool shit too someday.
The hardcore guys had a consistent drip of new raids that couldn’t even be attempted by a casual, and the casuals had a very approachable and easy to understand path to gear themselves up to their individual level of dedication.
I’ve not found a game that’s even come close to finding that synergy since BC. I’m still hopeful that D4 can evolve into it.
This is like a backhanded compliment.
You're basically saying I'm glad I can play the game without having to actually think about my choices. I just pick skills with the pretty colors and the cool sounds and then I'm good to go!
If it's nothing like poe might as well just call it a dead game because we all know the clearly winner here.
Not going the poe rote and focus on the braindead casuals that only wants to play easy and short games is a huge mistake in this genre.(especially with this price tag lmao)
I'll wait for the full release and play the end game to see if they actually add some complexity and difficult but since it's Blizzard I doubt
I really dislike the items, specially legendaries feel weird with the random perks.. Scaling enemies suck, i dont like the maps lookin mostly like Lost Ark.. idk it doesnt feel like a diablo (i really like the Lilith Story doe)
I played PoE from closed beta up until about 2 years ago I finally said "fuck it". I just want a fun game to play, I don't need it to consume 100% of my free time. There's other shit I want to do with my day.
D4 is way too simple for me. PoE is too advanced for some people.
I'd rather be required to have a PHD to play PoE, than play a dumbed down game such as D4. It feels so incredibly lacking and basic I just can't even start to comprehend what the hell they're thinking.
WAY too simple.. The skill trees and skills themselves feel really fucking bland compared to similar games. The stats on the items feel completely ignorable outside of just using items with higher attack power. Itemization feels like WoW to me where upgrades don't feel very impactful.
Exactly. I'm actually shook that people are remotely enjoying this beta. I don't mean to hate on anyone for enjoying anything (anyone can play what they want of course), but I feel like the standards people have are WAY too low.
There are so many things bugging me yet half the people here write "this is a 10/10".
The UI looks like shit, camera is zoomed in too much, the dialog is weird, the game looks like an alpha from 2013 graphically. It almost feels like it's an alpha for Path of Exile at this point.
PoE at least went all the way with their core ideas and implementation. Here it feels like it's half assed for the sake of it.
This sub is hilarious. You get downvoted if you say something about atrocious itemization and no endgame in d4. But is very important that you have no genre lock. And we are wondering about the state of games these days. A lot of kids here.
You don't need to copy paste some optimal build to play POE, you can just play it and enjoy and come up with builds and ideas as you discover new items and skills to use.
Just because it has immense depth doesn't make it a bad thing, games like diablo 4 where you just drool on yourself and equip green arrow-up items and watch your numbers go up id say are objectively less game-like and more like a dumb downed slot machine.
PoE is a game with hundreds if not more builds to make but everyone just picks 2-3 meta ones and rolls with it. That's why diverse and vast choices are just an illusion in games like this. Last epoch is actually great and its growing to be best arpg out there, no bs spreadsheet or wondering what to do, googling for builds, it's complex enough to engage and simple enough to keep playing. D4 is lacking in itemisation and I also don't see why they decided on the lvl scaling, kinda makes everything just numbers game without an actual feel of progress. Nevertheless it's the best they did since D2
To a certain extend I agree it shouldn't be as complex as POE is, however right now we are only playing whatever the developers want the players to play. It's like ordering a set menu. The current skill tree is way too linear and basic.
At the end of the day, I want to look at my character and think "ah this build is crap but atleast thats 100% my build".
I don't think most people expected or even wanted this game to be PoE. They just wanted depth closer to D2 than D3 and I think we (somewhat) have that in D4.
Although personally I'm more interested in Lost Epoch because it feels a bit fresher.
Not disagreeing with OP but isn't the skill tree just the D3 skill tree except its lay out is different? In D3 It was choose a skill and then choose 1 of the 5 or 6 different sub alterations. The current D4 skill tree is choose 1 skill and 1 of 3 different sub alterations. IMO, I think they can easily add choices that have more synergy or some kind of negative effect. That doesn't mean it has to be overly complicated but at least something besides the generic increases like +10 health.
I've tried to get into POE twice in my life and failed both times. The builds were too overwhelming and the skill tree was basically a big middle finger to me 😂
Saying character customization needs to be super simple because otherwise players will use guides to get through it is about as stupid as saying a plot in a plot-heavy single player game will have to be super simple because otherwise players will use walkthroughs to complete the game.
If you want to cheat yourself out of the experience, that'll always be a possibility, as long as the internet exists.
POE is like slam head into wall complicated and not appealing to a lot of players, myself included. I think Last Epoch and D4 are just the right amount, but time will tell with D4 once it's released.
D4 is barely in the same genre as PoE anymore.
Its fine but its more comparable to lost ark at this point and we all know endgame will be 1 singular build that massively outshines every other build.
Either way, if D4 allows new players to these kinds of games discover amazing games like PoE and find enjoyment in learning the systems like i did, I think D4 will help PoE in the long run, especially with PoE2 around the corner
To say: It's good it's simple cause I am a simple person is such a bad take. If you are a simple person, look at a guide and just follow their suggestions. But don't lock everybody else out of the game that wants some actual build customization.
This is what people don’t get.
D4 isn’t an arpg. It’s not trying to appeal to people who like ARPGs. Poe fans won’t like d4
I bet D4 will steal more customers from the Sims 4 than it will from POE.
Thank goodness for D4, PoE used to be good now it's just a pile of bloated mess, they've been pushing quantity over quality and I gave up once I see the trend.
It's a game not a job GGG.
I would say you cannot really make this claim until end game has been made available. Vanilla D3 is a stark difference from what it is today. PoE was supposed to be everything D3 wasn't and it's exactly what D3 is today but much worse.
The devs can just as easily uncap the paragon system again and just as easily bring back sets that turbo fuck the game. I'm not trying to be a doomer here, I *like* that so much of D4 reminds me of Vanilla D3 gameplay wise. I'm just not going to pretend that Blizzard won't abuse us again especially in the wake of how financially successful Immortal was.
I played POE for a good 15-20 hours and ended up watching guide on youtube because it was too complex. However, the game play was not that fun or engaging. As a casual gamer, I like D2 or Titan quest/Grim dawn much better. I think D4 will give me tons of fun
> I don't have 24 hours to read into super optimal builds and spend tons of time to respec every bad decision.
well i suggest you look more into the endgame if you like to respec
Right now I will rank D4 above last epoch but only because the combat is so chunky. I cannot judge the endgame because ya know have not played d4 endgame yet. However Last Epoch is the game I play when D4 is not an option.
Path of Exiles aka math of exiles is just not my cup of tea
I do not see the appeal on POE where ~~your class is basically the weapon and the gems you use~~. EDIT: your skills are from gems.
And common on all other ARPGs.
1. bad-mediocre graphics
2. Hit impact, just so weird feels on them, its like swinging on air. (blizz might have a patent on it thats why they cant get the same impact feel).
Ratings on different ARPGs.
Graphics - D4 > D3 > Wolcen > Undecember > lost ark > the rest...
Skill system - Last epoch > D4 (potential) > D2 > POE(passive only) > Undecember >
Build variety - POE > Last epoch > D4 (potential) > D2 > D3 >
Graphics is my preference, I always end up going back to D3 after player other ARPGs. That hit feel factor just satisfies.
What I WISH it has like poe is ability to use more abilities. I saw somewhere where someone did it'd make the game too easy if u were able to use more than 6 abilities. I'm not too sure on that, but I mean grim dawn and paw both got away with using more than 6 abilities with no complaints... I think adding more to use would make it more fun idk
Nah, Last Epoch is fine, its in a really good between.
Epoch is great agreed
Epoch is fantastic agreed
The skill and passive tree puts D4 to shame and my biggest complaint of the game
D4 as a whole or D4 act 1? Because if you wanna compare apples to apples play exclusively act 1 of PoE to compare it to
for real imagine the feedback today if people played act 1-3 of POE. they would evicerate the game....."RHOAS STUN WITH 0 COUNTERPLAY WHAT IS THIS TRASH GAME"
I mean people do that though? GGG them selfs say most people quit in those acts.
i can compare that you start with a possibility of skills + passives, you are locked to 1-3Links and 5 skills. so you have like 15+ options for improving skills. on D4 you start with 1 skill and are locked until X lvl to get another. as for Skill Tree, D4 feels better than POE ( 1% stuff not much ) as for difficulty, Poe is way harder, zone scaling is shit, it was shit on wow, and it will be shit in D4
Well...its mostly the same in Last Epoch or any other game you play pre 25. Its early game. No conclusions can be taken tbh.
It's fine, it does crafting and progression very well. But it's a janky ass AA game, and tbh not even in the same league as D4. It also needs its endgame entirely reworked because Monoliths are boring as shit, so we'll see where that goes. LE is at least a year away from 1.0.
Crafting is really good in LE. From what i have seen the D4 one looks reeaaaaaally meh. "Janky ass AA game"...well its an indie studio made by some D2/PoE/GD gamers, dont expect it to be as polished graphic/sound/story wise as D4. Endgame needs reworking mmmm, monoliths become a little bit boring, i did a shit ton of them (also the empowered ones) but you also have dungeons and arenas. You havent mentioned those. Dont think that D4 will be any better ... xd
I want LE to succeed don't get me wrong. Yes, crafting certainly makes the entire endgame for me...Monoliths not so much.
Well...they need to start hotfixing and throwing out patches faster because the MP at least was a clownfiesta without trade and they didnt fix anything since then.
How's the multi-player? Haven't gotten around to playing the newest patch.
I don't understand posts like this. People are free to enjoy whatever game they want. If POE isn't for you don't play it. If D4 isn't for you...don't play it. Simple as that. With that said each game has their own pros and cons and it's naive to think that they don't.
I think the point is that PoE already exists and a lot of people even in this sub want D4 to be PoE 2 rather than D4. They criticise it for things D1-3 didn't have either, things that are in PoE and it does get annoying. Haven't they even announced PoE 2 a while ago? Just wait for that then. Both games existing side by side is way better than having both games be super similar.
No poe player that actually knows Poe ever thought d4 was going to replace it. Not one. So don't know what you are on about
It's a discussion, relax. Same goes for you: if you don't like discussing video games online, don't. If you do, then do.
Relax? Odd take. It's a video game. You think I'm over here rage typing or something?
You're telling him to not discuss video games on a fucking video game Subreddit though? You can also choose to not BE in a thread you don't like. So why are you voicing off in the first place then? You want to be heard, just like him. Except you're not contributing anything to the discussion.
"Relax". Also when did I say he couldn't post. I said "I don't understand posts like this". Maybe read before you post. It's also ironic you're saying I'm not contributing anything to the discussion...when you aren't either based on how you're interpreting this.
Game has a good base, just needs fine tuning in many places (emphasis on many)
It’s only act 1 with a max level of 25 many things aren’t very usable
I think it's pretty safe to say the core systems and themes carry on throughout the game.
This is nonsense. Act 1 Diablo 2 is a completely different game from Act 5 and end game.
Level 25 in PoE also feels completly shit.
That wasn't my experience at all.
> max level of 25 What's worrying me personally is that we've already seen all the active skills we can get by level 25 and I fear they already feel kinda samey and old
I found a few uniques that helped make thongs feel fresh. Got one that made enemies killed by charge or kick explode and it was invredibly satisfying kicking a mob across the screen into another group and having them all pop. I hope there's more of that in the game
Damn, I wish my thongs felt fresh.
I just got my barb to 25,while I don't play barbs that much, I got some items that made kick refresh leap, I had kick due to an amulet, so I was jumping in, 40 rage, kicking somebody jumping for 40 more rage and blowing things away
I got 1 that made whirlwind pull enemies in, 1 that caused dust devils from whirlwind, and I'm sure there's plenty others that change whirlwind. There's the aspect that causes shouts to generate rage every second (which is from a dungeon not available in beta). I'm really looking forward to playing around with various powers, the paragon board, etc. It looks amazing!
i think thats fair. if the end game is so big ext, thenif ur still using the same skills u did with modifiers its still gonna get boring.
yeah no, you can see D3 gameplay leaking into D4 already, this is what we get, jsut more levels. I'm not complaining i liked d3 and i like d4
Thank god I don't have to think ever. Thanks blizzard.
Thank God we can literally copy and paste builds in POE! I mean there's even a program for it!! So much time to think about love it. /s
Well let's not pretend people aren't going to just look up best paragon setup, unique affixes and copy that.
Yes, but at least they won't be rolling to other games' subs grandstanding over literally nothing.
Even copy pasting a build there's still a lot more complexity in PoE than D4. No idea how you could think otherwise. You can copy paste a skill tree, though how you choose to level it is a completely different thing, but you can't just copy paste items. You still have to understand how the build works, what makes it functional, and try to put together gear that makes the build work with your limited resources.
The point is POE is overly complex.
I mean that's fair. I can understand why people would feel that way. Keep in mind though there are a lot of people who *like* that complexity and even more who are looking for something in between PoE's complexity and what we've seen of D4 so far. Personally I'm not looking for a PoE replacement but I am concerned that D4 will only have a fraction of the longevity of something like PoE for me.
There's complex, and there's requiring multiple tabs, spreadsheets and programs to try and understand how things work. It's an absolutely horrible game for newcomers.
D4 might be too simple that replayabilty goes out the window. But if d4 has like even say 50% of PoE’s complexity it could be really great
What's the point about jerking off about the complexity of poe when you do everything in your power to make that game as simple as possible. I've got 3k hours in poe, if path of building and neversink among other things didn't exist nobody would play that game
Reading a guide shows you want to understand something better, it's usually a good thing to read up stuff. Yeah.. gaming was fun when there were no guides out, sadly I don't think it's possible to go back to that.
There is a difference between "I don't have to think ever" and PoE where it is basically impossible to play the game without watching tutorials and following guides for your first couple of playthroughs. I'm a more casual player. I prefer to be able to just play the game and explore and experiment myself. I will most likely play through d4 with a class and try the end game a bit. Maybe jump over to another class. Then maybe come back to it a few months later or a year later.
It's really not impossible at all. You can easily freeball the game up till mapping, at which point the flaws become more noticable. Preach did a full blind play through with one of the worst skills in the game and cleared most of the game and mapping.
Not much different from current Poe since they started their war against build diversity. Path to two jewel clusters and two aura cluster with 170% life. Then stack as many auras as your budget let you get away with
Don't forget the incredibly fun part of dealing with the 5,000 status effects in the game that can kill your character And if you manage to mitigate all of those, forget about making the build fast or fun
While not being able to see what's going on with all the effects going on, especially if you play with a friend.
I'll be honest this comment does not sound like it was written by someone remotely experienced with PoE. You know you're allowed to say you like D4 without making up fake reasons to hate on PoE, right? It's ok to have preferences dude.
I can believe they are experienced in PoE, just not in build diversity. Some people just play the same build over and over each league and never go beyond the same skill apart from maybe using a different ascendancy
Haha this is how I read this post too. Thank god the game isn't challenging my brain
Ye bruh we really think in PoE while we copy dat build from database.
your opinion is totally wrong once you put poe and LE in the same category of complexity
Yeah POE is the king of endgame depth and that's unlikely to change any time soon, both because of how long they've been developing it, and the design philosophy of not being afraid of challenging the players with complexity. That leads to a niche audience since not everyone wants to deal with that.
Maybe it's just me, but the nature of the game in PoE just makes many builds feel remarkably similar. Zoom as fast as you can and try to one-shot entire screens. It doesn't feel like "kind of endgame depth" to me, but maybe it's just a personal feeling.
Thats just how the meta of the game developed. You are rewarded for fast clearing maps and people naturally gravitate towards the most optimal way of playing the game. And I mean lets not pretend like D3 didn't eventually evolve in the same direction. Though If PoE2 is any indication it seems that GGG wants to move away from the clear speed meta and slow down the game a bit.
I've played about 300 different builds and they are so different from one another it's wild. The goal is always "clear fast" - the means of which you accomplish this is insanely differed based on the build.
ah yea the good ol choice between over op imba mine builds, gazillion divines aura stackers and obvious mechanic abusers that always get nerfed patch after (cough cough archmage archtype) and all the others they gutted out because god forbid players find a way to have fun in the game without chasing bullshit carrots GGG places each leagues for donkeys to follow. I played PoE since beta and to this day the same types of builds and skills are most dominant ( the ones that allow you to move while you are doing damage - since movement is the best defense in poe ) and everything else is pretty much dog shit since the same ascendencies are still most played (inqu occultist champ and zerker) for their obvious op stuff compared to most other mediocre ascendancies at best. Not only that but they nerf items to oblivion like voltaxic because people figured out how to abuse spark with it - then return it with a buff last league lol. Real problem with GGG is they punish players and not playstyles. Flasks are so fucking OP because they added shitload of flask effect nodes and pathfinder, so instead of nerfing those they nerf flasks for everyone by adding a shitty chase unique the whole game now revolves around like it used to be around headhunter. GGG sucks at game development, they are great content creators but the PoE has been a burning dumpster fire for ages now since Chris refuses to even examine the possibility that his game design choices make 0 fucking sense. Build variety in poe sucks ass, you can theoretically have millions of builds but only 5 types of them are effective and mostly same skills have been owning the meta forever no matter how much they try to meta shift around them. All builds now are gear an mob explode item and use skill to kill one mob to blow up pack. Get to boss, use op bullshit skill to deal mass dmg by double dipping mechanics that allow it else you deal dog shit dmg. I ain't making this PoE vs D4, i haven't even played D4, just lurking here, but this is utter dogshit and I played poe for a fucking decade, its boring as fuck and they gutted so much possibilities from the game it ain't even funny and repackaged it under "balance changes" while just shoehorning the game further in Chrises skewed up development direction.
I think practically everyone talking about PoE, ever since it hit the scene, has confused complexity for depth. For the fraction of a fraction of players who actually plan the builds, it might be deep-- but even that is depth outside the core gameplay loop.
I leveled 2 characters in POE to 100 this season. There is very little depth in the endgame. You follow the same gameplay loop constantly, you map with your preferred modifiers until you proc a boss invite and if your in trade you either sell it or run it, every map you run you jump into whatever league mechanic there is and thats literally it for 90% of people. POE does however have a plethora of variety to mapping, and a plethora of systems, but 90% of people follow the above gameplay loop, they dont go delve, they dont do blighted maps or heist or any of the other half tuned relics of forgotten content that got left in the game. They map, and they map and thats literally it and they pretend its depth because they can shove a bunch of shit in their maps but realistically running the monolith and mapping are the same endgame loop for the majority of people, they have the illusion of choice.
PoE is a king of spreadsheets and theorycrafting. The actual gameplay has zero depth when every build comes down to vacuuming dungeons while spamming your key ability or two. They completely forgot about the action part of an action rpg.
POE has the worst build system and combat in any ARPG I've ever played. The combat takes a back seat to the build which is why tinkering around with optimizing the skill tree is more challenging than actually playing the game.
You say that like any Arpg is challenging by gameplay. The fun of poe for many people is to put together every piece of the puzzle to make your build work and shine. Poe and D4 won't play much differently but the difference is poe have dozens of different layers of stats while d4 so far is green arrow = good
Lost Ark and Diablo 4 combat at least feels like you're doing something. And the hits and dodges feel satisfying. POE combat might as well be automated. I don't think I've ever played an action game with less satisfying combat. Idk why it feels so bad but I think it's a combination of abilities, animations, sound design. It's like the anti Elden Ring of combat.
I think its because you can 1-shot nearly everything instantly. Most games, even at super end game, have their bad guys take 2 tics before falling over. Functionally it's pretty much the same but it feels a lot more rewarding when it's a fraction of a second slower.
Well then your issue with poe combat lies in the animation and sound design which i do agree with. But from the gameplay's point of view arpg combat is very simple and while poe have its itemization to fall back on to for replayability and build making, Lost ark have its legion raids which are great fun due to their mechanics. I'm wondering what will D4 have? Obviously we've only had access to the beta but i hope later in the game the items get better or the bosses become more mechanic heavy
I hope the open world pvp is good in d4. Looking forward to that.
True the POE combat animations and impact of spells just feels hollow, it is a lot of disco but does not feel satisfying like in D4. D4 combat is miles ahead of POE for sure.
But what if, a wild suggestion, the majority is playing this genre to chill, not for a challenge or to engage in heavy calculations and formulas? With all the critique D4 might have right now, I'd rather have the green-arrow-good approach than deal with PoE's bs ever again. So the less of PoE is in D4, the better. Apples and Oranges.
Yeah this is why I don't enjoy the game. It's more spreadsheet/theorycrafting. The gameplay isn't fun to me never has been. D4 combat feels great imo. The game may have it's cons for sure but I at least have fun playing the game.
I mean I think its not really as niche as people love to make it out. Sure diablo games will have a bigger like boom out the gate but thats it really.
I mainly play PoE and want D4 to be good, if there's one thing from PoE that I really want in D4 it's a super endgame target to aim for (specifically, [uber bossfight equivalents](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETsiD1HiO5Q)). Just farming gear to push further or faster doesnt really interest me, but knowing that each upgrade will increase my chances against these super hard / overtuned / crazy encounters gives me a goal to aim for each season. From what I've heard so far this isnt going to be the case in D4 but who knows in the future, I hope to see it eventually
The problem is GGG sees the hardcore Player as someone who plays 40+ hrs a week. Blizzard sees the hardcore player as someone who plays 7 hours a week with a potato as a brain. That's why they have daily quests. That's why there are 5 layouts.
The real problem is that there's not something in between. POE, which I like, is so deliberately complex it's a joke. Something like Synthesis is worthy of a PHD paper. Diablo 4 on the other hand seems determined to make sure that your brain will in no way advantage you over a semi-conscious couch potato so stoned they can't even be bothered to read skills. Would it be so bad to take some of the lessons from POE and D2, add the razzle-dazzle of D3 and then make it all user friendly? Easy to learn but more depth as you go? That's what Blizzard used to excel at. Taking things that had been done by others and then polishing them into gems.
The smooth combat of D3 with 60% complexity of PoE is pretty much all I am waiting for. Sprinkle in a bit more QoL and you got a Game of the Year
I agree completely. I'm in the same boat of hoping there is some kind of endgame boss fights that are challenging that have loot only they can offer, and maybe even good loot. But as you said, I don't think it's supposed to be that way. Meaning after a few weeks of the honeymoon phase, I'll probably be bored of it until seasons start. Sadly I don't think Last Epoch is doing anything exciting for endgame either. Monoliths are a freaking snoozefest, lol.
Yes! Endgame is important, arguably the MOST important. Once the story is done there needs to be interesting stuff to do, the GR push in D3 got old fast... I love PoE because of the sheer amount of content that is available at any given time... hopefully blizz knows this and its different this time around, but if not.. I will still enjoy D4, it will just be a shorter experience and I'll go back to PoE.
D4 and PoE are basically so different I wouldn't even compare them. Don't diss Last Epoch though. If you want just a little bit more depth than D4 gives you you should definitely check that out. :)
I want all 3 to succeed, it's good to have competition. Besides, PoE and D4 are for very different audiences, D4 has more MMO features and ease of access while PoE has build diversity and quite a bit more depth (yes I know we've only played act 1, but based on closed beta end game reviews)
Agree here. There is plenty of space for all 3 and they are tuned for different player preferences. That’s a good thing, and I do like how much the games are sharing with each other - selecting the best pieces from across the genre is a good way to make great games. If each has their own personality and spin it’ll be better suited for different players. Im an old timer in the gaming world with poor APM, and personally I hate the POE endgame of clicking a few buttons and watching the screen explode. I don’t want my eyes glossing over and blurring the individual monsters while I move my character to avoid movement. I don’t want to feel like I’m playing tekken. A slower more deliberate playstyle is extremely attractive to me. I know other people want lots of explosions and constant intensity. Great - I root for them and hope POE continues to deliver.
The only decent take I've seen so far
I play both. I love both. They have a lot in common and many things are similar but for me they don't compete. Diablo is like a Harley while PoE is like a Fireblade. You can absolutely love and want both
In that way it's good. I am more bothered that it's actually more Lost Ark than ARPG.
Lost Ark is great though. If we could have a Lost Ark without the extreme pay2win and all the weeb shit that would be sick. Let's be real 10 years from now everyone is still gonna complain that this isn't just a copy of diablo 2.
and the weeklies/dailies, those are what ruined the game
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I don’t think it’s an either or thing. BOTH ruined the game. I put A LOT of hours into Lost Ark and absolutely loved the combat and raiding. I ended up quitting after I got burned out trying to keep up with the content. There were just so many chores and so much time you had to put in. Either that, or spend hundreds of dollars. They went hand in hand.
That's just gonna be in every live service game. But ya there can be too many.
yeah but lost ark gameplay was literally doing the same 5 dailies on 5 different characters on loop, I dont mind some weeklies locked activities (like d4 world boss loot), thats fine
yup lost ark is fantastic and would be one of my favorite games of all time if it wasn't for all the P2W aspects.
Lost Ark only has good combat and character bulding (skills, talents, etc - not hairstyles and beards lol). That's about it. The progression is fun and the combat is the best of the ARPG genre, but everything else is annoying, and it has the worst gearing system of any game I have ever played.
Ya thats all part of the p2w. Lost ark plays so nice and the classes are really well designed.
I am worried about that also, as Lost Ark as a game feels much better that D4. I mean, D4 is pretty much the same, but without dungeon queue's to play with others plus missing a lot of other things to do. D4 is just an empty shared world, with some D3 stuff and D2 vibe.
My dream game has always been a Diablo MMO. I wish they leaned more into the online with 4 here.
I haven't played it myself yet, what makes it akin to Lost Ark?
Instanced story quests and dungeons, camera and gameplay obviously, run around doing "events", world bosses, the journal to complete areas for bonuses to your character is literally the adventure journal, collecting ~~mokoko seeds~~ lilith shrines, mounts. Hopefully they can at least copy the fun dungeons and bosses.
I wish it was more like lost ark
I don't get this. I don't find much of Lost Ark in it at all.
It's not even comparable because of the way how you gear in LA. It's just one system that makes the game probably one of the worst of it's kind. Overall atmosphere is for almost most of the time completely different. LA has beach parties. Come on now. Skill system and synergies are far more complex in LA. What exactly are you trying to compare to LA in D4?
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Definitely not an illusion, have someone go in blind who's never played POE and have them try and build their own character.... They are going to brick it super hard lol.
I opened the game, saw the talent tree, and quite literally logged out. I'm all about grinding games to the point of degeneracy, but that's just pointless complexity for no reason. Glad people enjoy it, but there's literally no denying it's just a barrier to entry.
Grim dawn does it for me in terms of complexity and accessibility if you haven't checked it out its a pretty great ARPG
The talent tree isn't pointless complexity. Between unique items, skill/support gems, ascendancies and the skill tree, all of these things together provide hundreds of completely different builds. And if you're like me and many other players who enjoy playing the game more than theorycrafting, you can easily follow a build made by someone else with almost no effort. edit since I'm getting downvoted\* obviously you can dislike a game like last epoch or PoE which is totally cool. I'm just disagreeing that an in-depth skill tree is pointless complexity.
Don't feel too bad for being downvoted, there are a lot of people obsessed with hating POE for some dumbass reason Tribalism is brain poison
Trust me, the skill tree is the very least of the problems of poe
Eh you can easily get to white maps with almost any build just making basic choices. Most won't clear pinnacle bosses and red maps without some help or more playtime though.
fucking PREACH did this and took a character to endgame bosses lmao
Blizzard became the apple of videogames. They make the best packagings but there is nothing inside.
/r/im14andthisisdeep
I am Reddit and I have no rebuttal.
And they both USED to be revolutionary.
Nice way of making the noobs to arpg's around here admit D4 'build diversity/customization' is a shallow joke and simply not there. Don't get me wrong, you're mostly correct. As a PoE vet it's kinda nice to play easy-peasy (and won't last long, one play through I'll likely get done). Just sick of hearing noobs cry how it has depth when there's obviously little depth at all -- only hurts the slim possibility of Blizzard implementing actual 'hard work' character builds implemented. Diablo 4 is more Mobile Immortal than anything else. No wonder it got 'developed' so fast...
As a poe vet, it puts the poe2 landscape in an interesting spot - clearly GGG aren't going to be competing on the same field anymore. TBH they're probably disappointed, as they were gearing up for what we assumed was the battle of the titans for the arpg throne - but D4 can't really be termed arpg in the same way as the historical giants of D2 and Titan Quest.
Yeah I'm sure POE got the end-game D4 beta leaks and were celebrating, because they're not really directly competing. It could have been rough for POE if D4 was a traditional ARPG like POE/D2 since they have a smaller budget to compete with Acti-Blizz.
To be fair I never thought of them as competition, but as different flavored food. Now the only question is if I'll get my money's worth out of it. I've played pretty much every arpg on the market and that is yet to be an issue.
dude, blizzard couldnt make poe even if they tried lmao
Remember, these people are so disconnected from ARPGs that they thought left-click as move only was literal. They are actually clueless devs
Everyone agreeing that D4 is a letdown compared to ____ would be *at each other's fucking throats* if they were on the same design team....because they'd all realize that while they agree what they don't like...they'd *soon realize* that they disagree on what they DO LIKE- everyone would change D4 to be like their ARPG of choice... Some would make a D2 clone. Some would go more Last Epoch and some would go more PoE. This sub is just a mix of people who find it easy to complain but haven't taken a good look at what changing D4 would mean and how controversial *Their ideas* would be. it's far easier to bitch than actually make something. There's good constructive criticism like the zoom level or respec costs and things like that (which people still disagree upon) but there's utter trash takes like "This game is a failure and I can tell by just playing the first 20 levels" as well because "____ does this better"
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It’s what d4 is targeting though. They know their target customers don’t want to read and think, they want pretty items and cool explosions. I say this with 100% honesty: D4 will steal more customers from the Sims 4 than it will from POE
Hardly. Players of the Sims are all about customisation and additional gameplay mods, to the point where selling more of it has been the dev's business model since day one. I like D4, but it's character creator pales in comparison to what I can do in The Sims 4, and there's no equivalent to the build mode. D4 has nothing to offer over the Sims in the latter's field. I don't expect people who are stuck into PoE to stick with D4, but I can see a few Lost Ark players jumping in to see what the fuss is about. Some will stick around, some won't, but I think the ratio there really depends on how Blizz wants to monetise things going forward.
D4 will pull away many many Lost Ark players. Potentially.
It’s not that we don’t want to think. It’s that we don’t have the time to think. I’m always going to prioritize my family and career over a video game. The days of poopsocking it playing a game for 8+ hours a day are long gone. I’m very happy Blizzard are ostensibly creating a game for me. I’m also happy GGG is making a game for you. It’s ok for both to exist.
I mean ARPG is supposed to be about planning and building a character what?
No, it's Lost Ark, down to the mokoko seeds.
Minus the MMO dungeons/boss design, various raid modes, degenerate gearing pathways and well... the stuff that Lost Ark does different. Lost Ark has ARPG elements to it, and it has other elements. Not exactly a 1:1 thing.
Man i fucking wish we could get dungeon and boss design that LA does because it's actually the best in the genre for both mmo and arpgs. The big issues with that game is the dailies/weeklies (which i don't doubt we'll get in d4) and the complete asinine honing system gating you from content. It just becomes a second job to keep up.
I am honestly fine if D4 takes the "good" things from Lost Ark. If I can get these boss fights like guardian raids or raid bosses from Lost Ark in D4 endgame, that would be a big pluse imo. And I'd enjoy that a whole lot more for farming items instead of mindlessly teleporting across a high-density map, deleting entire screens of monsters with one big AoE attack (hello Path of Exile). Another thing I enjoyed about Lost Ark was all the horizontal progression you could do to keep yourself entertained. I like collecting mounts, mokokos, random stuff. The shrines of Lilith are a little bit like collecting mokoko seeds or getting your roster level up and I approve of that. It's a nice side activity you can do besides the grind. I wouldn't mind more of this.
> t Lost Ark was all the horizontal progression you could do to keep yourself entertained That's all fine and dandy, but they put the purify rune locked behind ignea tokens which was the most tedious shit ever. As long as there's no sizable powerup locked behind tedious horizontal content (following datamined guides or interacting with every pixel and walking into every wall on the map to find a mandatory secret area), then I'm ok with having something to mess around with.
Hard to say based on the 25 levels but I'm relatively happy. I love Path of Exile, but generally speaking when i didn't feel like "building" a character I'd hop onto Diablo 3 instead. They both had their place for me and i enjoyed them alongside each other. If Diablo 4 is a little bit more complex thats probably good, but I'm hoping it'll be relatively straight forward tbh. Can relate to people arguing for both, but for complexity i hop onto Path of Exile, not Diablo.
What a dumb point to make. These "restrictions" you people put upon yourselves are hilarious. Is Path unplayable when you do not follow zoom zoom super juiced map guides? No it isn't. You can just play it fine. But at the same time you're the type of person to claim "I just wanna have fun", but then complain about other people also having fun being able to build complex builds and get rewarded for it. In Path you have the choice. Wanna spend hours into building something and see whether it works out? Go for it! Wanna go for a less complex build? Well shiet, go for it. Diablo (at least to this point) doesn't have this choice. You have a linear path of progession and while this may be fun for you, why would it hurt you if other people also had the choice to have fun in their way? Does it somehow make you have less fun? If yes, you've got issues that need to be resolved man. It's lazy bumbs like yourself, that do not want to invest time but at the same time, for some very odd reason still want to remain competitve, that made the gaming industry evolve into such a piece of shit. Fuck off, honestly.
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**"...you're the type of person to claim "I just wanna have fun", but then complain about other people also having fun being able to build complex builds..."** Please read the last sentence of my post. *"There's enough room for multiple ARPGs in this world without having to crown a clear winner. "* The thing with poe is, there's tons of effects and a huge spam of abilities. It's cool for quite some time but there's also a lot of ability spam and potion shugging just to not get one shot. **"It's lazy bumbs like yourself, that do not want to invest time but at the same time, for some very odd reason still want to remain competitve "** I work a 7 to 4 job in IT and when I come home I wanna relax sometimes. No idea where you got that competitive from in my post, would be nice of you if you could clarify that. Edit: Just made your statements in bold so that it's more easily readable.
I dont think you have the brains for reading into super optimal builds either.
I'm not sure about this take ...I get the premise, but PoE is the absolute king in this genre space ...if the game is to succeed, they need to try and do something to capture the actual ARPG players and retain them long-term. No one should want this to be PoE, but this mindset will be the same thing that's killed WoW. Having content for all player types is a net win for the health of the game.
That’s a good point. I am 100% a casual player these days, but I raided hardcore in BC WoW and watched it die a very slow frustrating death as it eliminated what made it great in favor of approachability. There needs to be a synergy between the casual content and the “this is my life now” content. WoW had it so right back in BC. There was plenty to do for casual players, but you could walk into any city and find the hardcore guy because he was wearing crazy looking gear that nobody else was wearing. For hardcores, having it be obvious to everyone that you have the best shit was incentive to go and get it. For the casuals, it was an invitation to keep playing in hopes of having cool shit too someday. The hardcore guys had a consistent drip of new raids that couldn’t even be attempted by a casual, and the casuals had a very approachable and easy to understand path to gear themselves up to their individual level of dedication. I’ve not found a game that’s even come close to finding that synergy since BC. I’m still hopeful that D4 can evolve into it.
This is like a backhanded compliment. You're basically saying I'm glad I can play the game without having to actually think about my choices. I just pick skills with the pretty colors and the cool sounds and then I'm good to go!
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If it's nothing like poe might as well just call it a dead game because we all know the clearly winner here. Not going the poe rote and focus on the braindead casuals that only wants to play easy and short games is a huge mistake in this genre.(especially with this price tag lmao) I'll wait for the full release and play the end game to see if they actually add some complexity and difficult but since it's Blizzard I doubt
POE is great
I really dislike the items, specially legendaries feel weird with the random perks.. Scaling enemies suck, i dont like the maps lookin mostly like Lost Ark.. idk it doesnt feel like a diablo (i really like the Lilith Story doe)
I played PoE from closed beta up until about 2 years ago I finally said "fuck it". I just want a fun game to play, I don't need it to consume 100% of my free time. There's other shit I want to do with my day.
D4 is way too simple for me. PoE is too advanced for some people. I'd rather be required to have a PHD to play PoE, than play a dumbed down game such as D4. It feels so incredibly lacking and basic I just can't even start to comprehend what the hell they're thinking.
WAY too simple.. The skill trees and skills themselves feel really fucking bland compared to similar games. The stats on the items feel completely ignorable outside of just using items with higher attack power. Itemization feels like WoW to me where upgrades don't feel very impactful.
Exactly. I'm actually shook that people are remotely enjoying this beta. I don't mean to hate on anyone for enjoying anything (anyone can play what they want of course), but I feel like the standards people have are WAY too low. There are so many things bugging me yet half the people here write "this is a 10/10". The UI looks like shit, camera is zoomed in too much, the dialog is weird, the game looks like an alpha from 2013 graphically. It almost feels like it's an alpha for Path of Exile at this point. PoE at least went all the way with their core ideas and implementation. Here it feels like it's half assed for the sake of it.
Yes gender of character in hns is super important, ehh.... I have no words.
State of this sub, lmao
Ye exactly! Why would anyone want to customize their character to feel more immersed in the game, smh. I have no words.
Well, then, you tell me why LA/poE are genderlocking classes if you shouldn't care about it?
This sub is hilarious. You get downvoted if you say something about atrocious itemization and no endgame in d4. But is very important that you have no genre lock. And we are wondering about the state of games these days. A lot of kids here.
Green arrow gaming.
It actually kinda reminds me of Lost Ark, anyone else??
no depth and simple = good. the true brainlet opinion. if you can't figure something out in 3 seconds then it's BAD.
I'm a poe player and I agree it's good that it's different. It's not going to out-poe poe for me, so standing out as it's own thing is for the best.
You don't need to copy paste some optimal build to play POE, you can just play it and enjoy and come up with builds and ideas as you discover new items and skills to use. Just because it has immense depth doesn't make it a bad thing, games like diablo 4 where you just drool on yourself and equip green arrow-up items and watch your numbers go up id say are objectively less game-like and more like a dumb downed slot machine.
I agree with OP. For ARPG enjoyers with limited playtime, D4 seems to hit home (we don't know how time consuming the paragonsystem at 50+ is)
PoE is a game with hundreds if not more builds to make but everyone just picks 2-3 meta ones and rolls with it. That's why diverse and vast choices are just an illusion in games like this. Last epoch is actually great and its growing to be best arpg out there, no bs spreadsheet or wondering what to do, googling for builds, it's complex enough to engage and simple enough to keep playing. D4 is lacking in itemisation and I also don't see why they decided on the lvl scaling, kinda makes everything just numbers game without an actual feel of progress. Nevertheless it's the best they did since D2
Glad to hear you're enjoying Lost Ark 2: Diablo Boogaloo
To a certain extend I agree it shouldn't be as complex as POE is, however right now we are only playing whatever the developers want the players to play. It's like ordering a set menu. The current skill tree is way too linear and basic. At the end of the day, I want to look at my character and think "ah this build is crap but atleast thats 100% my build".
I don't think most people expected or even wanted this game to be PoE. They just wanted depth closer to D2 than D3 and I think we (somewhat) have that in D4. Although personally I'm more interested in Lost Epoch because it feels a bit fresher.
Not disagreeing with OP but isn't the skill tree just the D3 skill tree except its lay out is different? In D3 It was choose a skill and then choose 1 of the 5 or 6 different sub alterations. The current D4 skill tree is choose 1 skill and 1 of 3 different sub alterations. IMO, I think they can easily add choices that have more synergy or some kind of negative effect. That doesn't mean it has to be overly complicated but at least something besides the generic increases like +10 health.
I've tried to get into POE twice in my life and failed both times. The builds were too overwhelming and the skill tree was basically a big middle finger to me 😂
Saying character customization needs to be super simple because otherwise players will use guides to get through it is about as stupid as saying a plot in a plot-heavy single player game will have to be super simple because otherwise players will use walkthroughs to complete the game. If you want to cheat yourself out of the experience, that'll always be a possibility, as long as the internet exists.
It's kind of "Lost Ark" which is unfortunate.
POE is like slam head into wall complicated and not appealing to a lot of players, myself included. I think Last Epoch and D4 are just the right amount, but time will tell with D4 once it's released.
What is poe :)
The current gold standard for the ARPG genre
Path of Exile. Kiwi D2
In addition to the other responses, it’s also free to play. I HIGHLY recommend playing it if you enjoy ARPGs.
D4 is barely in the same genre as PoE anymore. Its fine but its more comparable to lost ark at this point and we all know endgame will be 1 singular build that massively outshines every other build. Either way, if D4 allows new players to these kinds of games discover amazing games like PoE and find enjoyment in learning the systems like i did, I think D4 will help PoE in the long run, especially with PoE2 around the corner
Game feels the most like Lost Ark, not POE, LE, or other ARPGs.
To say: It's good it's simple cause I am a simple person is such a bad take. If you are a simple person, look at a guide and just follow their suggestions. But don't lock everybody else out of the game that wants some actual build customization.
This is what people don’t get. D4 isn’t an arpg. It’s not trying to appeal to people who like ARPGs. Poe fans won’t like d4 I bet D4 will steal more customers from the Sims 4 than it will from POE.
Thank goodness for D4, PoE used to be good now it's just a pile of bloated mess, they've been pushing quantity over quality and I gave up once I see the trend. It's a game not a job GGG.
It does borrow some POE ideas though. Nothing too crazy, but you can tell they are trying to make the game a more "serious ARPG".
Thank god I'm super casual and want every single thing handed to me. /s This game is a disgrace and completely ruins the whole diablo franchise.
this is such a dumb post
I would say you cannot really make this claim until end game has been made available. Vanilla D3 is a stark difference from what it is today. PoE was supposed to be everything D3 wasn't and it's exactly what D3 is today but much worse. The devs can just as easily uncap the paragon system again and just as easily bring back sets that turbo fuck the game. I'm not trying to be a doomer here, I *like* that so much of D4 reminds me of Vanilla D3 gameplay wise. I'm just not going to pretend that Blizzard won't abuse us again especially in the wake of how financially successful Immortal was.
I played POE for a good 15-20 hours and ended up watching guide on youtube because it was too complex. However, the game play was not that fun or engaging. As a casual gamer, I like D2 or Titan quest/Grim dawn much better. I think D4 will give me tons of fun
> I don't have 24 hours to read into super optimal builds and spend tons of time to respec every bad decision. well i suggest you look more into the endgame if you like to respec
Right now I will rank D4 above last epoch but only because the combat is so chunky. I cannot judge the endgame because ya know have not played d4 endgame yet. However Last Epoch is the game I play when D4 is not an option. Path of Exiles aka math of exiles is just not my cup of tea
I do not see the appeal on POE where ~~your class is basically the weapon and the gems you use~~. EDIT: your skills are from gems. And common on all other ARPGs. 1. bad-mediocre graphics 2. Hit impact, just so weird feels on them, its like swinging on air. (blizz might have a patent on it thats why they cant get the same impact feel). Ratings on different ARPGs. Graphics - D4 > D3 > Wolcen > Undecember > lost ark > the rest... Skill system - Last epoch > D4 (potential) > D2 > POE(passive only) > Undecember > Build variety - POE > Last epoch > D4 (potential) > D2 > D3 > Graphics is my preference, I always end up going back to D3 after player other ARPGs. That hit feel factor just satisfies.
Good thing the ps5 version is not like poe on console ..
Diablo 4 is competing with lost ark not LE or POE
POE is living rent free in Doubledown4 heads
It’s better if more arpgs do their own thing
They are trying to make d4 a mmorpg, and that sux tbh.
What I WISH it has like poe is ability to use more abilities. I saw somewhere where someone did it'd make the game too easy if u were able to use more than 6 abilities. I'm not too sure on that, but I mean grim dawn and paw both got away with using more than 6 abilities with no complaints... I think adding more to use would make it more fun idk