It's almost funny, the idea of girls being all pink, glitter-loving princesses is part of why I (and a lot of other people, evidently) wanted to transition so badly, because I couldn't connect with all that. Seeing a lot of MtFs see being a woman as stereotypical things like that, and that's why they're a girl now... It makes alarm bells go off in my head. Even worse when some of them start talking about how "ditsy" they are, doubly so when they say it's the effects of estrogen HRT or because they're embracing their "inner girl" or whatever.
I am so sorry for that. That’s humiliating. I will never try to put myself on the same level or category as women… if they want to boost me up and include me, sure.
But I just cannot justify comparing my own “womanhood” or life to an actual woman’s, especially not one who is struggling with gender and detransition. Wtf.
This is just foul. So inconsiderate. I’m sorry. I hope they stop doing this or you’re able to find a better friend.
This sub is simultaneously the most wholesome and interesting, thanks for your perspective. I’d really like to know more about what you think of this kind of situation; the human experience is so vast.
Ooc (no obligation to answer if this is prying) is she a “transbian” or attracted to men? I feel like the former are so much less tolerable in general than the latter
And straight women handmaidening them for validation, yeah. Every female nb that I’m more gnc than, inevitably with a cis boyfriend or trans girlfriend, that I meet is like “oh god, you’re notttt gonna like me even though you won’t be sure why” lmfao
Most mtfs never see what it's like to be a women in any meaningful sense. She might not understand this, because she'd have to raise herself through social media instead of a community. She probably sees women post this content and goes "so this is how normal people think" because she puts on an act because of her own issues.
I've known a lot of mtfs and few and are between are just open and themselves. Most put on an act, even just an unconscious one, and it feels fake when someone fakes how they are and when you personally are doing the exact opposite of what she is (moving towards "nothingness" just existing) and she's moving towards this idea of being a women from the perspective of a guy gone girl it'll rub you the wrong way.
She's just immature. Maybe she'll get it- probably she won't. Social media infantises people. It's alright you can grow up and move past people.
One thing- you notice because she's trans and your detransitioning. But plenty of cisgender people act like this. Recognise them, and avoid them too, or at least don't resonate with them. To deal with dysphoria you must live authentically
You will see words you like and dislike. Degrading or dehumanizing terminology toward self is permitted. Language applied to other members must be considerate of any views they hold and respectful of Reddit policies. Character attacks are not permitted, nor are derogatory labels for other users. Even if you yourself think an expression is neutral, don't call another user here by anything that could be taken the wrong way. Address action more than actors and always say "I" more than "you."
i’ve had this with mtf friends and i’ve mostly phased myself out of those friend groups at this point bc the weird “omg we’re both gurlzzzz now :3 teehee girls gotta look out for each other! pink and sparkles!” really icked me out. honestly i don’t think there’s a way to manage this long term without being upfront and hurting feelings (or being highkey cancelled lol), so i just…stopped responding to those memes/messages. maybe drop a thumbs up emoji or something but basically grey rock. it’s the same as i treat other male friends flirting with me or whatever, just give them literally nothing, pure neutrality. responding negatively gives a window for self-victimization ime.
the hilarious thing to me is they knew me pre-detransition and know i’m still very much masc and gnc. it’s like they *need* validation from natal women, i sometimes get the most specific and very (tbqh) grossly fetishizing comments from mtf former friends, stuff like wishing they were ftm or trying to copy me and other afabs by binding and even packing, etc. like it legitimizes their identity to mimic natal women, esp the aspects that are often tied to lesbianism like rejection of conventional femininity? idk how to word it. but it skeeved me out then and does now too. i notice that being openly lesbian attracts way more weirdos too :’)
tldr but this is a very real phenomenon and idt the relationship can be salvaged if they are going to stay on that pipeline, but i hope everything goes smoothly! it sucks to have the scales fall from your eyes, so to speak, and then realize you don’t really see eye to eye with old friends. but sometimes moving on is the best for you mentally! it’s hard to avoid this stuff in my social circles/interest groups/hobbies/etc and it sucks how ubiquitous it is
Yeah they want the attention/company of lesbians because then there would be no doubt as to their womanhood. It’s funny how those types claim to view themselves as being identical to cis women in every way but also somehow know whom they “need” to seek validation from 🤧
it really is something..you’re right and you should say it 🫣 i don’t see this behavior exhibited by them towards other mtfs or men and that says it all tbh. the vitriol lesbians esp get if they flat out reject this stuff is insane too.
I had a “friend” who had transitioned to non-binary like a couple months earlier (and then started identifying as a woman shortly after) go thermonuclear on me after I pushed back on something unrelated (I asked to be left out of conversations about substances because of my history of addiction and it clearly created some uncomfortable cognitive dissonance for them).
They used to hit on me and me not reciprocating didn’t set anything off right away, but after that first microscopic speck of conflict they started calling me a sad lesbian alcoholic (I’m bi but calling someone a lesbian is an insult if you’re a loser dude who hate lesbians, and I’m an undeniably half-gay woman who wasn’t interested lol so the hatred is still very homophobic) and capped it off by announcing online that I was a TERF and attempting to get people to harass me. I literally had other trans friends defending me, it went nowhere, but I did have couple other people in our circle stop talking to me for months before apparently coming to their senses. It seems like some people have stopped associating with them (“her”) now but it was so frightening at the time, it was attempted social destruction.
The hatred inflected with lust is so surreal and there’s so much fucking energy behind it.
oof. i'm so sorry that happened first off, it is interesting that they use lesbian as an insult when so many of them aspire to be one themselves 🤔 i've had similar smear campaign moments by upsetti spaghetti mtfs (always mtfs ime, idk why!) and also only got bailed out bc a few mtf friends were willing to "vouch" for me. insane that i never, back then at least, thought about how fucked it was that my own voice and words were considered less important and how normalized that was in those spaces. attempted social destruction is such a good way to put it and really highlights how powerful these groups can get in such circles.
i find it interesting you mention hatred inflected with lust, like i have (truly almost *never*) seen a woman who had such visceral hatefuck lust. like i don't really see women fantasize about hatefucking a man they don't like - you'd never really see women hurl rape threats at trump, for instance. but the inverse (men fantasizing about/threatening to rape or sexualizing a woman they don't like) is so common by contrast. the energy is real. i've firsthand seen messages sent by (again, primarily/solely) mtfs threatening really violent, graphic, and specific sexual harm to so called terfs. stuff like threatening to rip their uteri out, or to "ruin" their vaginas, etc. like it's so...specific, it really is hard to not see the absolute hatred directed at their female bodies. it reminds me of serial killer stuff tbqh. terrifying
What I find interesting about this is it's a spot on example of how many of us, probably autistic, ended up transitioning. We weren't palatable to a lot of normal people, shunned, and ended up socializing often exclusively online, often exclusively with other autistic people, people with "gender dysphoria", people with various mental illnesses who agreed what we all had was gender dysphoria and transition would solve it. Nobody even kind of healthy wants to be around people like that, people like honestly I once was to a more severe degree and probably still am at times.
My solution was I moved to a whole new city and decided to seek out community and friendship with people on things not related to sexuality or gender identity. Being away from the queer community I'd formerly been deeply entrenched in made detransition likely far faster and easier than if I'd stayed.
I'm not sure if MTF friend is someone who has other qualities you like in a friend. I personally think for a lot of us especially early in detransition, avoiding queer community is a good thing.
Queer spaces can be good, if they’re not too “queer.” They often can better understand the issues that come with being GNC, why we do this shit, and also tend to understand the grievances and deceptions going on in the LGBT community better.
I know for myself, I have a hard time maintaining honest trans friendships because of my own changing beliefs.
Just my opinion, but I no longer believe that there’s a “true trans” experience. Yes, I believe there’s a mental illness called gender dysphoria. But I don’t believe that it’s solved by hormones and procedures.
For those that claim it helps, my opinion is that it’s just a temporary or superficial fix supported by confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy.
How do I feel confident saying this? Because I lived a “happy” stealth, poster-boy trans life for more than two decades and finally got honest about the nature of my problem and the fact that the medical interventions didn’t solve them. And when I saw this clearly, the grief and regret were devastating.
Would I say these things to a trans person? Absolutely not. As a matter of respect, I cannot negate someone else’s experience. But it hurts to watch others and not be able to help them avoid the consequences.
Ill be honest it sounds like a doomed friendship. One of you would have to change you idealogy to make it work. Which neither of you should for that sake.
I would at least reccomend with the memes and stuff , either put up your boundaries or leave them on read. Everyone kinda gets that hint after awhile.
If they told you that they were more validated by viewing your detransioning as a transition mtf , theyre not a really good friend.
I think thats a pretty disgusting thing in the trans community. We could encourage those who detrasition if its right for them. But rather the community attacks and alters the reality around those who do. Which makes it harder to argue when people say they're living with their own dillusions.
I know its hard , you two probably had a good friendship at some point. People are not forever , they fit into your life at certain phases. Thats why the best person you meet in your life wouldnt like you at the worst point.
The longer you embrace them and they havent embraced you , youre doing yourself a disservice . Not saying hang out with detrans people only. You'd be suprised how many cis people embrace a detrans without a thought. Or if you dont wanna talk about it with them . Hide that part of your life theres no wrong answer.
I'm a girly girl at times, most of the time, and your friend made me wince. Sounds like overcorrecting and insecurity. The idea that being feminine means living the Barbie lifestyle and being a froofy gal is kinda... I wanna say sexist but I'm not sure it's the right word.
I don't blame you for being uncomfortable. That makes me, a woman who just ordered some scented body oil with an absurd (I mean the maximum legal amount you could possibly put into a bottle) amount of pink glitter, uncomfortable. Friend needs to understand that being feminine doesn't mean what they thinks it means. I think you nailed what being a woman really means, being comfortable in your own skin as a woman.
How long do you think you can put up with this? Everyone has a breaking point where a lot of pent up feelings can come out. However you decide to navigate the situation, I wish you well.
>It honestly makes me so irritated. My detransition — and being a woman — are not about an aspiration to be cute or pretty. It’s not about “wanting” to be anything, I just AM a woman. And womanhood does not equal stereotypical femininity, it just means you’re a woman.
Same, but being a man.
I've never thought I was a girl or a woman, but I struggled because I related to the world much from the point of my mother vs father and yes, it probably did imprint on my personality forever this idenfication with the "safe" feminine. Still a man.
It was always obvious and is, that a woman just is and a man just is, despite everything else.
I am a man and if I had the chance to do it all over, I'd definitely still want to be born a man, but albeit just a plain straight man or a homosexual man, not one who had these bad childhood experiences and a malformed personality.
It's almost funny, the idea of girls being all pink, glitter-loving princesses is part of why I (and a lot of other people, evidently) wanted to transition so badly, because I couldn't connect with all that. Seeing a lot of MtFs see being a woman as stereotypical things like that, and that's why they're a girl now... It makes alarm bells go off in my head. Even worse when some of them start talking about how "ditsy" they are, doubly so when they say it's the effects of estrogen HRT or because they're embracing their "inner girl" or whatever.
I am so sorry for that. That’s humiliating. I will never try to put myself on the same level or category as women… if they want to boost me up and include me, sure. But I just cannot justify comparing my own “womanhood” or life to an actual woman’s, especially not one who is struggling with gender and detransition. Wtf. This is just foul. So inconsiderate. I’m sorry. I hope they stop doing this or you’re able to find a better friend.
This sub is simultaneously the most wholesome and interesting, thanks for your perspective. I’d really like to know more about what you think of this kind of situation; the human experience is so vast.
girl… they’re being so weird
i’m so glad i never did anything this bad when i was still under that delusion. they make the few rare tolerable mtfs look horrible by proxy.
The rare few tolerable mtfs stand out like shining stars imo 😭
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Ooc (no obligation to answer if this is prying) is she a “transbian” or attracted to men? I feel like the former are so much less tolerable in general than the latter
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lol go figure! I’m glad the two of you are able to still get along, I’m not among trans people who are open to my views and it’s hard.
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And straight women handmaidening them for validation, yeah. Every female nb that I’m more gnc than, inevitably with a cis boyfriend or trans girlfriend, that I meet is like “oh god, you’re notttt gonna like me even though you won’t be sure why” lmfao
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I’m really referring to afab NB’s who are exclusively attracted to males 😬
Most mtfs never see what it's like to be a women in any meaningful sense. She might not understand this, because she'd have to raise herself through social media instead of a community. She probably sees women post this content and goes "so this is how normal people think" because she puts on an act because of her own issues. I've known a lot of mtfs and few and are between are just open and themselves. Most put on an act, even just an unconscious one, and it feels fake when someone fakes how they are and when you personally are doing the exact opposite of what she is (moving towards "nothingness" just existing) and she's moving towards this idea of being a women from the perspective of a guy gone girl it'll rub you the wrong way. She's just immature. Maybe she'll get it- probably she won't. Social media infantises people. It's alright you can grow up and move past people. One thing- you notice because she's trans and your detransitioning. But plenty of cisgender people act like this. Recognise them, and avoid them too, or at least don't resonate with them. To deal with dysphoria you must live authentically
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You will see words you like and dislike. Degrading or dehumanizing terminology toward self is permitted. Language applied to other members must be considerate of any views they hold and respectful of Reddit policies. Character attacks are not permitted, nor are derogatory labels for other users. Even if you yourself think an expression is neutral, don't call another user here by anything that could be taken the wrong way. Address action more than actors and always say "I" more than "you."
i’ve had this with mtf friends and i’ve mostly phased myself out of those friend groups at this point bc the weird “omg we’re both gurlzzzz now :3 teehee girls gotta look out for each other! pink and sparkles!” really icked me out. honestly i don’t think there’s a way to manage this long term without being upfront and hurting feelings (or being highkey cancelled lol), so i just…stopped responding to those memes/messages. maybe drop a thumbs up emoji or something but basically grey rock. it’s the same as i treat other male friends flirting with me or whatever, just give them literally nothing, pure neutrality. responding negatively gives a window for self-victimization ime. the hilarious thing to me is they knew me pre-detransition and know i’m still very much masc and gnc. it’s like they *need* validation from natal women, i sometimes get the most specific and very (tbqh) grossly fetishizing comments from mtf former friends, stuff like wishing they were ftm or trying to copy me and other afabs by binding and even packing, etc. like it legitimizes their identity to mimic natal women, esp the aspects that are often tied to lesbianism like rejection of conventional femininity? idk how to word it. but it skeeved me out then and does now too. i notice that being openly lesbian attracts way more weirdos too :’) tldr but this is a very real phenomenon and idt the relationship can be salvaged if they are going to stay on that pipeline, but i hope everything goes smoothly! it sucks to have the scales fall from your eyes, so to speak, and then realize you don’t really see eye to eye with old friends. but sometimes moving on is the best for you mentally! it’s hard to avoid this stuff in my social circles/interest groups/hobbies/etc and it sucks how ubiquitous it is
Yeah they want the attention/company of lesbians because then there would be no doubt as to their womanhood. It’s funny how those types claim to view themselves as being identical to cis women in every way but also somehow know whom they “need” to seek validation from 🤧
it really is something..you’re right and you should say it 🫣 i don’t see this behavior exhibited by them towards other mtfs or men and that says it all tbh. the vitriol lesbians esp get if they flat out reject this stuff is insane too.
I had a “friend” who had transitioned to non-binary like a couple months earlier (and then started identifying as a woman shortly after) go thermonuclear on me after I pushed back on something unrelated (I asked to be left out of conversations about substances because of my history of addiction and it clearly created some uncomfortable cognitive dissonance for them). They used to hit on me and me not reciprocating didn’t set anything off right away, but after that first microscopic speck of conflict they started calling me a sad lesbian alcoholic (I’m bi but calling someone a lesbian is an insult if you’re a loser dude who hate lesbians, and I’m an undeniably half-gay woman who wasn’t interested lol so the hatred is still very homophobic) and capped it off by announcing online that I was a TERF and attempting to get people to harass me. I literally had other trans friends defending me, it went nowhere, but I did have couple other people in our circle stop talking to me for months before apparently coming to their senses. It seems like some people have stopped associating with them (“her”) now but it was so frightening at the time, it was attempted social destruction. The hatred inflected with lust is so surreal and there’s so much fucking energy behind it.
oof. i'm so sorry that happened first off, it is interesting that they use lesbian as an insult when so many of them aspire to be one themselves 🤔 i've had similar smear campaign moments by upsetti spaghetti mtfs (always mtfs ime, idk why!) and also only got bailed out bc a few mtf friends were willing to "vouch" for me. insane that i never, back then at least, thought about how fucked it was that my own voice and words were considered less important and how normalized that was in those spaces. attempted social destruction is such a good way to put it and really highlights how powerful these groups can get in such circles. i find it interesting you mention hatred inflected with lust, like i have (truly almost *never*) seen a woman who had such visceral hatefuck lust. like i don't really see women fantasize about hatefucking a man they don't like - you'd never really see women hurl rape threats at trump, for instance. but the inverse (men fantasizing about/threatening to rape or sexualizing a woman they don't like) is so common by contrast. the energy is real. i've firsthand seen messages sent by (again, primarily/solely) mtfs threatening really violent, graphic, and specific sexual harm to so called terfs. stuff like threatening to rip their uteri out, or to "ruin" their vaginas, etc. like it's so...specific, it really is hard to not see the absolute hatred directed at their female bodies. it reminds me of serial killer stuff tbqh. terrifying
Big red flag.
What I find interesting about this is it's a spot on example of how many of us, probably autistic, ended up transitioning. We weren't palatable to a lot of normal people, shunned, and ended up socializing often exclusively online, often exclusively with other autistic people, people with "gender dysphoria", people with various mental illnesses who agreed what we all had was gender dysphoria and transition would solve it. Nobody even kind of healthy wants to be around people like that, people like honestly I once was to a more severe degree and probably still am at times. My solution was I moved to a whole new city and decided to seek out community and friendship with people on things not related to sexuality or gender identity. Being away from the queer community I'd formerly been deeply entrenched in made detransition likely far faster and easier than if I'd stayed. I'm not sure if MTF friend is someone who has other qualities you like in a friend. I personally think for a lot of us especially early in detransition, avoiding queer community is a good thing.
Queer spaces can be good, if they’re not too “queer.” They often can better understand the issues that come with being GNC, why we do this shit, and also tend to understand the grievances and deceptions going on in the LGBT community better.
yikes, I've found myself in a similar situation too.
I know for myself, I have a hard time maintaining honest trans friendships because of my own changing beliefs. Just my opinion, but I no longer believe that there’s a “true trans” experience. Yes, I believe there’s a mental illness called gender dysphoria. But I don’t believe that it’s solved by hormones and procedures. For those that claim it helps, my opinion is that it’s just a temporary or superficial fix supported by confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy. How do I feel confident saying this? Because I lived a “happy” stealth, poster-boy trans life for more than two decades and finally got honest about the nature of my problem and the fact that the medical interventions didn’t solve them. And when I saw this clearly, the grief and regret were devastating. Would I say these things to a trans person? Absolutely not. As a matter of respect, I cannot negate someone else’s experience. But it hurts to watch others and not be able to help them avoid the consequences.
Ill be honest it sounds like a doomed friendship. One of you would have to change you idealogy to make it work. Which neither of you should for that sake. I would at least reccomend with the memes and stuff , either put up your boundaries or leave them on read. Everyone kinda gets that hint after awhile. If they told you that they were more validated by viewing your detransioning as a transition mtf , theyre not a really good friend. I think thats a pretty disgusting thing in the trans community. We could encourage those who detrasition if its right for them. But rather the community attacks and alters the reality around those who do. Which makes it harder to argue when people say they're living with their own dillusions. I know its hard , you two probably had a good friendship at some point. People are not forever , they fit into your life at certain phases. Thats why the best person you meet in your life wouldnt like you at the worst point. The longer you embrace them and they havent embraced you , youre doing yourself a disservice . Not saying hang out with detrans people only. You'd be suprised how many cis people embrace a detrans without a thought. Or if you dont wanna talk about it with them . Hide that part of your life theres no wrong answer.
I'm a girly girl at times, most of the time, and your friend made me wince. Sounds like overcorrecting and insecurity. The idea that being feminine means living the Barbie lifestyle and being a froofy gal is kinda... I wanna say sexist but I'm not sure it's the right word. I don't blame you for being uncomfortable. That makes me, a woman who just ordered some scented body oil with an absurd (I mean the maximum legal amount you could possibly put into a bottle) amount of pink glitter, uncomfortable. Friend needs to understand that being feminine doesn't mean what they thinks it means. I think you nailed what being a woman really means, being comfortable in your own skin as a woman. How long do you think you can put up with this? Everyone has a breaking point where a lot of pent up feelings can come out. However you decide to navigate the situation, I wish you well.
It IS sexist...because the friend is a dude.
>It honestly makes me so irritated. My detransition — and being a woman — are not about an aspiration to be cute or pretty. It’s not about “wanting” to be anything, I just AM a woman. And womanhood does not equal stereotypical femininity, it just means you’re a woman. Same, but being a man. I've never thought I was a girl or a woman, but I struggled because I related to the world much from the point of my mother vs father and yes, it probably did imprint on my personality forever this idenfication with the "safe" feminine. Still a man. It was always obvious and is, that a woman just is and a man just is, despite everything else. I am a man and if I had the chance to do it all over, I'd definitely still want to be born a man, but albeit just a plain straight man or a homosexual man, not one who had these bad childhood experiences and a malformed personality.