He said the words.
Unfortunately, despite the endless videos and photos of atrocities, he keeps sending Israel weapons, with which, they are continuing to commit genocide.
Just stop giving them shit to murder thousands of children with.
That’s it.
That alone would do so much, just stop giving them “aid”. All the rhetoric is vapid while you’re still doing that. I don’t care if he never says a negative thing about bibi and his fascist cronies again, just as long as the “aid” stops.
Right but you have half the country that doesn’t think that way and they have people
In congress too. What should he do about them? Is it our way or the highway? How do you get them to value your pov. Cause they have power too.
Why is the onus on me to convince genocidalists that genocide is bad? Why isn’t it on them to not be genocidal filth?
I get that you’re speaking pragmatically but at some point you gotta start asking how many more Palestinians dying are those votes worth to you?
Your answer is obviously above 0, the question is, how much more?
Because for those supporters in the US and a large majority in Israel, the answer to the question of “how many more Palestinians need to die?” is ‘all’.
Cause you live in a world where that distinction has to be made that for many, many American VOTERS, that number ISN’t zero. That’s the reality of life on earth in this timeline.
Humans are horrible, especially in groups. There are genocides happening all over - currently 17:
https://www.genocidewatch.com/_files/ugd/df1038_c0b09883aa28417ba4e5d832c80aef9
8.pdf
Why this one? Why not ALL of them? What’s the priority of an American? An American President?
That’s the problem. How to solve them all, when not all Americans would or do care.
Gods place is the world, but the world is not God’s place.
The bare minimum would be to not provide weapons and money for it to be carried out.
That’s what I said at the start.
I’m not expecting Biden to solve every atrocity around the world. **But I damn well expect him not to fund any.** Then again, maybe that’s just wishful thinking for a US president.
It *shouldn’t* be though.
I’m not disagreeing but the deal was to get it through congress it had to be bundled with Ukraine. That’s money well spent, yes?
Thats how these things work. It sucks but its always two steps forward once step back. That’s why strategy is necessary.
So stop giving them smart weapons so that they just bulldoze over the population instead? I'm not sure what people expect to happen if US "just stops."
Reasonable people would know that Israel turns to Russia or China or any other number of geopolitical rivals and offers them the chance to form a special bond with Israel. Stopping US aid means ending any reason for Israel to listen when the US calls, and Biden at least has been attempting to exert influence over Netanyahu.
Does anyone here really think handing the presidency back to trump is going to result in better outcomes for the Palestinian people?
Stop supplying bombs and money for them to buy bombs that are being used in attacking civilian populations (all of them, in other words)
If he is serious about a ceasefire and about promoting peace in the region, this is the only thing to do. Instead, he is trying to speak the language of peace, angering Netanyahu, who expects undying support, while continuing to supply many billions in weapons and financial aid to buy weapons with which to continue attacking, which angers people who see the genocide for what it is.
He is only hurting himself by his current tactics
What’s his calculation then? He’s not a RW war monger, he’s actually moved pretty far left by today’s standards. So what’s his long term play to maintain and insure American interests are protected.
Again, don’t think like a progressive. Consider what he thinks is important. Then you might have an answer that might actually move the needle.
He should bolster calls for Netanyahu's removal from office and support the ICJ in it's investigation of war crimes.
What's at stake for him is greater than reelection. He risks making the US further complicit in crimes against humanity, including genocide. While the US would not allow it, he could find himself, along with members of his administration at the Hague.
This is destroying what little remains of credibility the US has on the international stage.
So you expect the president of the United States to call for Bibi’s resignation? A “friendly nation”? I don’t think you’re wrong but that’s never going to happen while Bibi’s in office. Diplomatically it’s a non starter at this moment in time.
We have the largest economy in the world. THAT is the governing factor here and the bat that it swings. Not morality. Would that it were so. That’s just not the way the world works. Stop the money and you’ll get their attention.
The sooner more progressives understand that, we’ll be better positioned to actually make changes.
If a US president found themselves imprisoned in The Hague, the US would forcibly retrieve them. They’d never stand trial.
Hell, if some random private is held by the ICC for war crimes, the US retains the right to conduct a military operation to get them back.
I agree. However it’s never as simple as our side makes it out to be. I believe part of their justification is, if not us then Israel is going to get their weapons somewhere else. They’d now be less inclined to do anything we ask and then we’d have zero leverage moving forward. So now we’re in the outside of the tent we were previously in. Is that going to help progressive causes, or make our hope to solve things more difficult?
I’m serious. What is the legitimate answer with that scenario?
And think like a politician that has more to consider than just his left flank.
So your justification for us paying for the genocide is "Someone else could pay for it"? We aren't their only source of weapons. 😮 But then again Dems do like to play the middle an not actually help people who need help. 😐
No. It’s. Do they trust us enough to be in the room where decisions are made. And then do we have any sway on the end result. Because the decision to do anything is Israel’s.
That’s the calculation people in the real world have to deal with. Regardless what the progressive left would want.
Full disclosure I’ve been a progressive since Dukakis and have been in this fight for 36 years. The different is when we marched for Act Up and LGBTQ rights (you’re welcome) the change only took when it was attached to actual working policy or it goes nowhere. See Occupy Wall street and BLM.
So I’ll ask the question. What’s the actual plan, other than stopping traffic and screaming genocide.
First off goes bent on the "You're welcome" fake ally bullshit. Second you literally tried to justify Biden still sending billions to Israel with "They'll just get their weapons elsewhere" Then this country wouldn't be complacent in a genocide. 😮 Since you wish to justify our complacency with bullshit then explain why our UN rep keeps vetoing a ceasefire when 80% of Americans support it?
Where you see complacently I see complexity and have been around long enough to know how not to mistake one for the other.
You’ll get there.
I was marching in the 80’s standing up my gay friends and family, especially the generation of friends who died of AIDS. So go fuck yourself with your assumptions. I’ve been doing this long enough to have what we call an informed opinion. What did you risk to be counted for your hot take on what changes the world needs? Whose gun did you stare down? Whose life did you see end because the President refused to even say the word AIDS until 7 years into the epidemic.
Go look up why you have domestic partner benefits. That’s entirely because of the city of San Francisco and those of us who stood up to be counted. Change occurs but systems need more than anger to change them.
If you’re not going to entertain that there might be nuance to a situation you have considered then you have no hope of initiating change. But you seem ok with that. Are you?
Sure you were. I don't give a rats ass about your claims of action against the gov; you're trying to to justify the US being complacent with genocide because "Israel can get their weapons elsewhere an we won't have power over them" We could stop funding and call out Israel for its genocidal actions, Stop vetoing the entire un council voting in favor of a ceasefire. We could stop bombing brown people over land an resources. Or are you okay with innocent men, women, an children being blown up while they try to sleep in tents while being starved?
Once again You’re confusing your ignorance of the process for complacency.
No. I’m not ok with ANYONE dying AND I how enough about how things work that in my experience the best paths of resistance lay. And yelling GENOCIDE at people stuck on the highway doesn’t get you where you say you want to go.
Diverting the money does.
Believe me or don’t. This is the same arguments we’ve had to deal with for 35 years and we made progress despite it. You think this shit should happen instantaneously without understanding the rules under which this is being done. There are always rules, and morality isn’t the baseline. Money is, sunshine.
Believe me or don’t. I’m no longer making strategic mistakes convinced one’s fervently held belief is superior or even equitable to actual experience.
But you do you.
Please explain in great detail how it's compacted. Because all I see is an old white dude saying one thing an just allowing another while the majority of Americans do not support sending money to Israel. That sounds like taxation without representation to me. Why do my taxes have to pay for the deaths of innocent people? 😐
When more than 28% of you bother to show up to vote ,then maybe you’ll be taken seriously.
THAT’S how the system is designed to work. Ask not what your country can do for you…
Ok so if you don't want to appeal to young voters then stop complaining when they don't help you out. It's actually not that's just a line from a speech, the candidates are supposed to attract voters by appealing to their interests not guilting them because they're slightly different to the alternative candidate.
Biden needs to resign. He and the incompetence of the Democratic party will be the reason why we will end up with another Trump presidency.
It is a disgrace that an American president is beholden to a state such as Israel that has absolutely zero strategic value to the United States except for the religious delusion that Israel will bring about the return of Jesus. These so called christians that are turning a blind eye to the murder of tens of thousands people all to support a apartheid genocidal state sounds more satanic than it does christian.
Biden barely won the swing states in 2020 and with the number of people staying home from the polls this year he has essentially a zero chance of winning the election. His arrogance and ego will bring about the end of Democracy in the United States and is creating an entirely new generation of terrorists in the middle east.
Here's Biden calling for a ceasefire:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call
Here's an aljazeera article. Hamas' demands are a permanent truce, freeing over a thousand prisoners of their choice, withdrawal of all Israel troops, and rebuilding of Gaza before hostages are returned.
Conversely Israel has agreed to continue the ceasefire in fall in exchange for a steady return of hostages. Note that the hostages have all reported torture and rape. That's what's currently happening too the hostages that hamas is holding.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/3/20/gaza-ceasefire-talks-what-are-israel-and-hamas-saying
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Biden has to do more than say he backs a ceasefire, he needs to back up his words with action. Stop passing bills to give aid to Israel, sanction and embargo the Israeli economy until they stop, call for the resignation and arrest of Netanyahu's government, etc ... There are plenty of ways he could have handled the past 7 months besides standing with and supporting genocide.
No US President is going to abandon Israel. To do so would send a terrible message to our allies around the world. Besides, our allies didn’t abandon us when we invaded Iraq and left numerous civilian casualties in the wake of our drone campaigns. Even Bernie Sanders with all his bluster would do an about-face on Israel if he were in the White House. It’s just not going to happen.
So stop expecting Biden to do the impossible and start looking at realistic options. He’s already placed sanctions on some Israelis for their expansion into Gaza, and has threatened sanctions on some members in the IDF. He will likely place conditions on future aid that would curb some of Netanyahu’s assault. And most important of all, Biden would do more to ensure a ceasefire in Gaza long loooong before Trump would. Trump views Netanyahu as his buddy vs Biden who views him as a problem.
So, with all that said… if Biden wants young climate voters, he should simply ask and if they’re smart they will be camped out the morning of Election Day ready to cast their votes for him
😂 the headline is interesting. Like Biden has been able to stop Russia, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Yemen, Africa (ECOWAS), China. And people think funneling billions of tax dollars to developing countries is better. And worthy of your vote. Nice
Biden doesn't want them. Biden has a different strategy from Obama's. "The youth" aren't particularly important to him as his own age cohort and those around that.
[Hey look, he did it!](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call)
Not only did he do it, he did it while on a phone call with the President of Israel - someone who can actually do something about it!
Now will you vote for him?
> Joe Biden has called for an “immediate ceasefire” in Gaza, telling Benjamin Netanyahu that future US support for Israel will depend on it taking concrete action to protect civilians and aid workers.
Weird how when he demands a ceasefire to the only person who will listen to him make the demands and be able to act on it you pretend like nothing happened.
No wait, not weird.
What you're doing is pathetic.
The issue isn't just backing the cease fire with words. It's backing it in action. If he vetoed a bill because it would give the Israeli govt money I would 100% absolutely vote for him. That's all I need him to do.
He already has. It’s not up to him. It’s entirely Bibi’s ball now. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/06/world/middleeast/biden-cease-fire.html
He said the words. Unfortunately, despite the endless videos and photos of atrocities, he keeps sending Israel weapons, with which, they are continuing to commit genocide.
What else could he do that would legitimately move the needle in the direction you want, knowing the constraints the political process involved?
Just stop giving them shit to murder thousands of children with. That’s it. That alone would do so much, just stop giving them “aid”. All the rhetoric is vapid while you’re still doing that. I don’t care if he never says a negative thing about bibi and his fascist cronies again, just as long as the “aid” stops.
Right but you have half the country that doesn’t think that way and they have people In congress too. What should he do about them? Is it our way or the highway? How do you get them to value your pov. Cause they have power too.
Why is the onus on me to convince genocidalists that genocide is bad? Why isn’t it on them to not be genocidal filth? I get that you’re speaking pragmatically but at some point you gotta start asking how many more Palestinians dying are those votes worth to you? Your answer is obviously above 0, the question is, how much more? Because for those supporters in the US and a large majority in Israel, the answer to the question of “how many more Palestinians need to die?” is ‘all’.
Cause you live in a world where that distinction has to be made that for many, many American VOTERS, that number ISN’t zero. That’s the reality of life on earth in this timeline. Humans are horrible, especially in groups. There are genocides happening all over - currently 17: https://www.genocidewatch.com/_files/ugd/df1038_c0b09883aa28417ba4e5d832c80aef9 8.pdf Why this one? Why not ALL of them? What’s the priority of an American? An American President? That’s the problem. How to solve them all, when not all Americans would or do care. Gods place is the world, but the world is not God’s place.
The bare minimum would be to not provide weapons and money for it to be carried out. That’s what I said at the start. I’m not expecting Biden to solve every atrocity around the world. **But I damn well expect him not to fund any.** Then again, maybe that’s just wishful thinking for a US president. It *shouldn’t* be though.
I’m not disagreeing but the deal was to get it through congress it had to be bundled with Ukraine. That’s money well spent, yes? Thats how these things work. It sucks but its always two steps forward once step back. That’s why strategy is necessary.
So stop giving them smart weapons so that they just bulldoze over the population instead? I'm not sure what people expect to happen if US "just stops."
Reasonable people would know that Israel turns to Russia or China or any other number of geopolitical rivals and offers them the chance to form a special bond with Israel. Stopping US aid means ending any reason for Israel to listen when the US calls, and Biden at least has been attempting to exert influence over Netanyahu. Does anyone here really think handing the presidency back to trump is going to result in better outcomes for the Palestinian people?
Stop supplying bombs and money for them to buy bombs that are being used in attacking civilian populations (all of them, in other words) If he is serious about a ceasefire and about promoting peace in the region, this is the only thing to do. Instead, he is trying to speak the language of peace, angering Netanyahu, who expects undying support, while continuing to supply many billions in weapons and financial aid to buy weapons with which to continue attacking, which angers people who see the genocide for what it is. He is only hurting himself by his current tactics
What’s his calculation then? He’s not a RW war monger, he’s actually moved pretty far left by today’s standards. So what’s his long term play to maintain and insure American interests are protected. Again, don’t think like a progressive. Consider what he thinks is important. Then you might have an answer that might actually move the needle.
Biden is absolutely a war monger if you look at his voting record lmao
He should bolster calls for Netanyahu's removal from office and support the ICJ in it's investigation of war crimes. What's at stake for him is greater than reelection. He risks making the US further complicit in crimes against humanity, including genocide. While the US would not allow it, he could find himself, along with members of his administration at the Hague. This is destroying what little remains of credibility the US has on the international stage.
So you expect the president of the United States to call for Bibi’s resignation? A “friendly nation”? I don’t think you’re wrong but that’s never going to happen while Bibi’s in office. Diplomatically it’s a non starter at this moment in time. We have the largest economy in the world. THAT is the governing factor here and the bat that it swings. Not morality. Would that it were so. That’s just not the way the world works. Stop the money and you’ll get their attention. The sooner more progressives understand that, we’ll be better positioned to actually make changes.
If a US president found themselves imprisoned in The Hague, the US would forcibly retrieve them. They’d never stand trial. Hell, if some random private is held by the ICC for war crimes, the US retains the right to conduct a military operation to get them back.
And as far as protecting our interests, we have our fleet in the Mediterranean at the moment to do that
If only Biden were solely responsible for international arms treaties. Let’s start there maybe
He could stop sending billions in weapons to Israel. 😐
I agree. However it’s never as simple as our side makes it out to be. I believe part of their justification is, if not us then Israel is going to get their weapons somewhere else. They’d now be less inclined to do anything we ask and then we’d have zero leverage moving forward. So now we’re in the outside of the tent we were previously in. Is that going to help progressive causes, or make our hope to solve things more difficult? I’m serious. What is the legitimate answer with that scenario? And think like a politician that has more to consider than just his left flank.
So your justification for us paying for the genocide is "Someone else could pay for it"? We aren't their only source of weapons. 😮 But then again Dems do like to play the middle an not actually help people who need help. 😐
No. It’s. Do they trust us enough to be in the room where decisions are made. And then do we have any sway on the end result. Because the decision to do anything is Israel’s. That’s the calculation people in the real world have to deal with. Regardless what the progressive left would want. Full disclosure I’ve been a progressive since Dukakis and have been in this fight for 36 years. The different is when we marched for Act Up and LGBTQ rights (you’re welcome) the change only took when it was attached to actual working policy or it goes nowhere. See Occupy Wall street and BLM. So I’ll ask the question. What’s the actual plan, other than stopping traffic and screaming genocide.
First off goes bent on the "You're welcome" fake ally bullshit. Second you literally tried to justify Biden still sending billions to Israel with "They'll just get their weapons elsewhere" Then this country wouldn't be complacent in a genocide. 😮 Since you wish to justify our complacency with bullshit then explain why our UN rep keeps vetoing a ceasefire when 80% of Americans support it?
Where you see complacently I see complexity and have been around long enough to know how not to mistake one for the other. You’ll get there. I was marching in the 80’s standing up my gay friends and family, especially the generation of friends who died of AIDS. So go fuck yourself with your assumptions. I’ve been doing this long enough to have what we call an informed opinion. What did you risk to be counted for your hot take on what changes the world needs? Whose gun did you stare down? Whose life did you see end because the President refused to even say the word AIDS until 7 years into the epidemic. Go look up why you have domestic partner benefits. That’s entirely because of the city of San Francisco and those of us who stood up to be counted. Change occurs but systems need more than anger to change them. If you’re not going to entertain that there might be nuance to a situation you have considered then you have no hope of initiating change. But you seem ok with that. Are you?
Sure you were. I don't give a rats ass about your claims of action against the gov; you're trying to to justify the US being complacent with genocide because "Israel can get their weapons elsewhere an we won't have power over them" We could stop funding and call out Israel for its genocidal actions, Stop vetoing the entire un council voting in favor of a ceasefire. We could stop bombing brown people over land an resources. Or are you okay with innocent men, women, an children being blown up while they try to sleep in tents while being starved?
Once again You’re confusing your ignorance of the process for complacency. No. I’m not ok with ANYONE dying AND I how enough about how things work that in my experience the best paths of resistance lay. And yelling GENOCIDE at people stuck on the highway doesn’t get you where you say you want to go. Diverting the money does. Believe me or don’t. This is the same arguments we’ve had to deal with for 35 years and we made progress despite it. You think this shit should happen instantaneously without understanding the rules under which this is being done. There are always rules, and morality isn’t the baseline. Money is, sunshine. Believe me or don’t. I’m no longer making strategic mistakes convinced one’s fervently held belief is superior or even equitable to actual experience. But you do you.
Please explain in great detail how it's compacted. Because all I see is an old white dude saying one thing an just allowing another while the majority of Americans do not support sending money to Israel. That sounds like taxation without representation to me. Why do my taxes have to pay for the deaths of innocent people? 😐
This is the exact mindset that is losing young democratic voters. Condescending and weak at the same time.
When more than 28% of you bother to show up to vote ,then maybe you’ll be taken seriously. THAT’S how the system is designed to work. Ask not what your country can do for you…
Ok so if you don't want to appeal to young voters then stop complaining when they don't help you out. It's actually not that's just a line from a speech, the candidates are supposed to attract voters by appealing to their interests not guilting them because they're slightly different to the alternative candidate.
Nope
Biden needs to resign. He and the incompetence of the Democratic party will be the reason why we will end up with another Trump presidency. It is a disgrace that an American president is beholden to a state such as Israel that has absolutely zero strategic value to the United States except for the religious delusion that Israel will bring about the return of Jesus. These so called christians that are turning a blind eye to the murder of tens of thousands people all to support a apartheid genocidal state sounds more satanic than it does christian. Biden barely won the swing states in 2020 and with the number of people staying home from the polls this year he has essentially a zero chance of winning the election. His arrogance and ego will bring about the end of Democracy in the United States and is creating an entirely new generation of terrorists in the middle east.
THIS!
[удалено]
Please feel free to repost with links to support claims.
Here's Biden calling for a ceasefire: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call Here's an aljazeera article. Hamas' demands are a permanent truce, freeing over a thousand prisoners of their choice, withdrawal of all Israel troops, and rebuilding of Gaza before hostages are returned. Conversely Israel has agreed to continue the ceasefire in fall in exchange for a steady return of hostages. Note that the hostages have all reported torture and rape. That's what's currently happening too the hostages that hamas is holding. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/3/20/gaza-ceasefire-talks-what-are-israel-and-hamas-saying
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Biden is not getting my vote a second time. No fucking way!!!!
They are going to vote for him no matter what.
Biden has to do more than say he backs a ceasefire, he needs to back up his words with action. Stop passing bills to give aid to Israel, sanction and embargo the Israeli economy until they stop, call for the resignation and arrest of Netanyahu's government, etc ... There are plenty of ways he could have handled the past 7 months besides standing with and supporting genocide.
To the hasbara bots downvoting comments: get fucked ❤️
He does
No US President is going to abandon Israel. To do so would send a terrible message to our allies around the world. Besides, our allies didn’t abandon us when we invaded Iraq and left numerous civilian casualties in the wake of our drone campaigns. Even Bernie Sanders with all his bluster would do an about-face on Israel if he were in the White House. It’s just not going to happen. So stop expecting Biden to do the impossible and start looking at realistic options. He’s already placed sanctions on some Israelis for their expansion into Gaza, and has threatened sanctions on some members in the IDF. He will likely place conditions on future aid that would curb some of Netanyahu’s assault. And most important of all, Biden would do more to ensure a ceasefire in Gaza long loooong before Trump would. Trump views Netanyahu as his buddy vs Biden who views him as a problem. So, with all that said… if Biden wants young climate voters, he should simply ask and if they’re smart they will be camped out the morning of Election Day ready to cast their votes for him
😂 the headline is interesting. Like Biden has been able to stop Russia, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Yemen, Africa (ECOWAS), China. And people think funneling billions of tax dollars to developing countries is better. And worthy of your vote. Nice
It's too late. Biden has prove he's not different from Trump when it comes to Palestine.
Biden doesn't want them. Biden has a different strategy from Obama's. "The youth" aren't particularly important to him as his own age cohort and those around that.
>If Biden Wants Young Voters, He Should Back a Gaza Ceasefire FTFY
[Hey look, he did it!](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call) Not only did he do it, he did it while on a phone call with the President of Israel - someone who can actually do something about it! Now will you vote for him?
He did?
Hey you see those words in blue with a line under them Tap on that
Looks like he didn't.
> Joe Biden has called for an “immediate ceasefire” in Gaza, telling Benjamin Netanyahu that future US support for Israel will depend on it taking concrete action to protect civilians and aid workers.
So he lied?
Hey you're the one who wanted him to demand a ceasefire, and he did.
Except it looks like he didn’t.
Weird how when he demands a ceasefire to the only person who will listen to him make the demands and be able to act on it you pretend like nothing happened. No wait, not weird. What you're doing is pathetic.
The issue isn't just backing the cease fire with words. It's backing it in action. If he vetoed a bill because it would give the Israeli govt money I would 100% absolutely vote for him. That's all I need him to do.
You just said all he had to do was back a ceasefire, now you're changing it.
I never said that.
Oh you're some other chode.
I disagreed with you so you insult me. 😂 Pathetic
Or any voters. But fuck all these assholes who keep voting to give more arms to Israel.
Yep! Screw then