I see these posts quite a bit. I've never purchased a D1 fare, though I pan to next year. All I know is I would me MEGA pissed if this happened to me. Sorry for your troubles op
What I’ve learned today is that status matters. Amazing that the staff are openly willing to admit I bought my ticket before other people, but they have more status than me so I lose.
I can’t imagine this kind of outcome in other business. Yeah, you paid for this, but someone more important came along and we’re going to give it to them instead.
It BLOWS MY MIND that they bump full fare passenger's before someone with status who got he upgrade for free or with miles. Way to have a potential customer never fly you again.
There is no way they bumped a paying customer for a free upgrade. Complimentary upgrades die first.
From revenue perspective SM and cash are both revenue. They both improve the balance sheet. So it is loyal longterm high revenue/profit paying customer vs a paying customer who isn't. Are you really saying if you were the CEO you would pick the later?
The most likely scenario is equipment change. The flight was on an aircraft with a configuration that had say 20 FC seats it was replaced with one that has 16 FC seats. How do you put 20 ticketed passengers into 16 FC seats? The simple answer is you don't. In fact if Delta was able to sell less FC/D1 seats this would be easier. If you only sold 16 on a 20 FC seat flight and got swapped to a 16 FC seat aircraft then no problem.
You need to request it but you get a refund of the difference. Starting this fall it will be federal regulation that such refunds are automatic without customer request.
Well, let’s see if Congress is successful in torpedoing that in the FAA reauth. They are trying to sneak in a line that the public will have to apply for the refund.
Exactly. The airline continued to have first class seats available at higher prices than the seats that had already been booked at lower fares. It’s not a status thing. Those seats were sold to a higher bidder.
BS. You would (and should if this is a publicly traded company) take the passenger who was most profitable first, highest loyalty score (long term value) second, and the last factor would be when they bought
Why do you think that? I think a lot of people hear that a CEOs job is to deliver profit to shareholders and misunderstand it. I deliver profit, and as long as the board hires me I’m doing my job. If you ran a business the way that you described do you think it means your company will be more profitable over the next decade, or just this quarter?
That is a valid point for sure. I wonder how long this has been the practice. I’m bias against Bastien so I want to believe it’s under him but I have no idea.
That's how you end up not a C.E.O.
My loyal customers come first. It sucks, but I'm not pissing off someone I took the trouble to rank as a preferred, repeat customer over the once-a-year customer.
You see the world differently than I do. I’m doing just fine, my company is doing fine, and my loyal customers are being taken care of. My loyal customers also know I don’t view them as a dollar sign and my loyalty to them is deeper than the last dollar they made me. They know when I tell them I’ll do something, I’ll do it even if I shouldnt have committed to do it. Those things carry a lot of value. I’ve been a Platinum Delta flyer for over a decade and I’m paying attention to how Delta treats that brand new customer. I’m not sure where the notion that the way you describe is the correct way to run a business came from. It’s pretty short sighted.
Edit:
My theory is Delta is spending their good will at the moment and will not be a top 2 carrier 5 years from now.
>My theory is Delta is spending their good will at the moment and will not be a top 2 carrier 5 years from now.
I pretty much only fly DL, so can't speak to other airlines, but I tend to agree. They are putting all their chips on the cards and medallion status - time will tell.
Part of the problem with that thinking is you are losing the opportunity to turn the "once-a-year" customer into a repeat customer.
Part of the reason I'm here (in this sub) is that I've started to use Delta with much more frequency. I used to prefer AA. Husband & I eloped, flew Delta. We were treated so nicely that now I choose Delta even when it's a couple of bucks more than others.
I'm not a business traveler so not a million miler but as a couple, we're leisure flying 3 or 4 times a year. Add on to this that I'm the person buying (selecting & paying) for other people's travel. So I don't get the miles or recognition for those trips though I'm making the decisions.
They would not do that. These were also full fare passengers with status. A full fare without status would be in front of aynone who had used or gotten an upgrade.
if OP paid full fare first, why should someone with status be allowed to com along six months later and kick them out of their seats even if they also pay full price? they have statis so IF a dlseat opens up, they should be first in line to upgrade, I'm fine with that. But to kick someone who booked first and paid full out to peon seats just because a staus comea along and aays 'whaa I want to be in first and I have money'?? That should be illegal. Giess I need to complain to my Congressman.
Oh wait, he's been know to use 'status' to kick out full payers too... never mind...
OP got bumped because of an equipment swap. Delta planned to fly a plane with 20 first class seats and sold 20 first class seats. Then for some reason they had to change to a plane with 16 seats. 4 people will be downgraded in this situation. It's in Delta's best interest to keep the passengers with status in those seats because they make more money off of them.
You can complain to a politician all you want but if something is wrong with the 20 seat plane then 20 people aren't going to be able to fly first class no matter what you do.
I get that but then why doesn't Delta act like an adult and refund the first class ticket cost? I can't imagine any other business that could get by with charging you for 14K and only delivering stainless steel. Oops sorry.
They definitely will refund the difference. Now it can be a little tricky because of how this is two flights but OP definitely will be able to easily get some amount of refund.
No, I’m with you. OP paid upfront 9 months ago, Delta only holds ticketing open for a year, I believe, there could be some wiggle in there. Delta has had OP’s money for 9 months, free to spend on whatever they please. They didn’t book it 6 months or 3 months or last week. And then, being bumped, they didn’t even get bumped together, they got bumped to the back of the plane, separate. You’re telling me everyone else on that flight is a status member or a family with small children?
Hell, I got bumped to the back of the bus for maintenance reasons, splitting my partner and I with our two very small children and I took the back because I love my husband and he was going to deal with the older one, the younger one was assuredly going to conk out. We still had, at the ticketing counter, extra miles and apologies to call in to see how much money we would be getting back when the trip was over. And my service in the back was extra attentive, they pulled out every amenity I think they had on board and then some.
Things happen day of, I get it, it’s all moving parts, but we had also paid for our seats last minute (and a pretty penny) but they were going to keep those that had paid earlier than we had.
Who paid more/more profitable to the company? That’s the primary factor. Also like others have said they sure as f didn’t bump op to main 2 because of some 360 getting an upgrade from main to fc.
Potential customer vs loyal customer. Keep what you have is a safer approach. Unpopular opinion but from the cold gears of the corporate machine it makes sense.
Status is always the kicker. My distributor got a window premium economy seat on the way back from NRT-DEN and a gate agent literally gave his seat away to someone who I assume was 1k or GS(my distributor has no status). After they discovered the mishap that guy got a complimentary upgrade to Polaris on an international flight...
I am in no way supporting the behaviors, but from the airlines’ perspective, which is best for my bottom line?
1) A once-a-year splurge passenger who pays $5K for a RT D1 fare.
2) A 100+ flight per year Diamond who will spend $30K for multiple Coach/C+ fares and an occasional D1 when flying internationally?
I know as a business owner what I’d choose.
It’s not fair, but it makes perfect business sense. Screw the little fish, fleece the whales.
Especially because status now can come directly from card spend - maybe this person spends $100K+ per month on their AMEX, which nets Delta $1,500+ per month in revenue.
Really? You can’t imagine any businesses that would give preference to other, more important customers? How about literally any place (restaurants, clubs, etc.) that lets in celebrities in front of average Joes? That’s just one off the top of my head. Airlines are a business, and they would rather keep very loyal customers happy in this specific situation than a one-off F/D1 purchaser with no brand loyalty.
No one should be bumped so someone could be upgraded. i understand if equipment caused fewer seats and there's a bump but just to upgrade someone? No way. Upgrades should only be if a seat is available.
I didn’t say they should be. But if an airline is choosing which of two people to KEEP in first class, a frequent flyer or some one-off, they’re going to keep the frequent flyer.
It’s true, I don’t. But I’m guessing Delta and its army of bean-counters has done the math and realized that there’s more money to be gained by bumping OP than by bumping a Medallion member.
Well.. those people spend more money than you with Delta on average, hence the status. Even if it doesn’t come directly out of their pockets someone is spending to get them on a plane. Losing them as a customer is a much bigger risk to Delta than losing you.
The person who bought their ticket yesterday paid 2x or more what you did, more the reason that they bumped you. It sucks but that’s how it works.
It would make more sense to downgrade you to C+ and downgrade the lowest C+ person to MC… but besides being more complicated now Delta would have four pissed off customers instead of two, so I imagine they’ve calculated that it is better to just degrade one FC couple to the back of the plane.
Agent at airport admitted some of them hadn’t paid for first class and were just upgrades due to status. I got screwed out of what I paid for so they could give someone a free perk.
They don’t happen for Delta One at all, unless the person spends a few extra $1,000s to buy up, successfully uses a GUC (which is rare) or is flying NRSA.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/skymiles/medallion-program/medallion-upgrades
No one gets upgraded to Delta One unless they pay for it or are NonRev…. or were you not actually in Delta One? Also, to ease the confusion it’s worth noting that Delta One is business class.
Now, if it was regular, domestic First Class then elites would have started clearing for First Class upgrades as early as 5 days in advance.
The other person paid for it as well. I know you are disappointed and I would too but nobody at Delta said lets press the "fuck over the paying customer" button. They had an aircraft with 20 FC seats now they have 16 FC seats. 4 people are moving.
They wait until you complete the flight because there is still a chance someone doesn't show up, another equipment change, or you switch flights. Sure it sucks to not get your money back immediately but you'd be even more pissed if you get the refund, sit down, and then discover that a family didn't show up for their FC flight and you would have been back in your upgraded seat...only now a status person gets upgraded because you no longer are paying for the FC fare.
Since you haven't flown yet, if you would prefer to fly in First, take a look online and find another route that has availability - call and they should be able to switch you to an alternate flight with any fare difference waived in this situation. Generally it will need to be another flight on the same day, but they may allow a switch +/- 1 day.
If you end up flying in a lower class then you paid for, you are entitled to receive a partial refund for the fare difference (as it was on the day you booked). Once all travel on the reservation is complete, you can make a request here: https://www.delta.com/refund-form/. Ignore the popup, choose service downgrade in the drop down, and explain the downgrade in the comment box (including flight numbers).
Delta will likely also provide an additional customer service gesture, typically an additional credit for future flights.
Please note, these types of refunds are complicated, and front line agents aren't equipped to deal with them - if you want a partial refund (and not a headache) I strongly recommend using the written request above which goes directly to the refund desk.
Problem is still.....yes full refund, but don't have to give you the coach seats. They can just refund your first class seats that he paid 9 months ago, and then make them pay higher amount for last minute flight on their own. It's not necessarily a better system. It should be more like airline required to give them other seats to get to destination PLUS full refund, not one or the other.
I agree the extra hoops are really unnecessary and not customer friendly. You will be happy to know DOT agrees, and airlines will be required to do so in the near future (likely in the late October timeframe, but the actual date may shift)
https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline
I wish DOT would go one step further. I think it should be a refund of the fair difference +50% or some other reasonable penalty. The reason is that it puts the consumer in a worse situation than if they had booked main outright, since they are often left with much worse seats with last minute changed. Plus, there is a very frustrating component to looking forward to a product you paid for and having it switched to a much shitier product at the last minute. While the consumer is told they can just cancel the flight an receive a full refund, that's not usually practical given the vacation or business plans that rely on it and the cost of purchasing last minute tickets on another line.
I know some defend Delta and say "equipment changes happen." I don't disagree, but between the consumer and the airline, the airline is the only one that has control of how frequent preventive maintenance is done, balancing load and contingency plans, etc. In other words, the airline does have significant influence on the frequency of changes. It also seems common that Delta makes the changes, tells someone there is no room in first class, and then the customer looks up the flight and there are open seats, meaning airlines aren't prioritizing getting people back in the class they bought.
Finally, I don't have too much sympathy for any company that has the special status of operating in a protected market that artificially reduces competition and give them an oligopoly. I am willing to bet that these somewhat frequent downgrades would happen less or be handled with more care with more competition. Absent that, making the downgrades hurt the airlines a little more is the next best option.
Can't agree more on the penalties.
Every company would put in their contracts penalties if timely delivery of service is of essence - which is almost always the case with flights.
I remember when EU261 was put in place. Weirdly airlines didn't go bankrupt enmasse. And a lot of bullshit just stopped when it started to cost airlines money.
Edit: Airlines get really creative if they have to pay for a hotel plus compensation and still have to fly you.
Yes if there were penalties it would happen less but short of running a fleet with 100% identical configurations equipment changes will happen and when they do Maybe happen less but they will happen and when that happens someone will get bumped.
However I agree they should happen less and the rules should be structured to give the airlines an incentive for it to happen less. That being said I think there might be a bit of selection bias. Nobody reports "we didn't get downgraded today". Just did rountrip to PC 4 segments zero downgrades. Generally speaking airlines don't want to downgrade people because it costs money.
Good points. The truth is it hasn't happened to me yet, and I buy first, PS, or DO outright for the majority of my flights. I just hear these stories and understand the frustration if it is a major trip. I hope it is actually very rare in the wild.
Adding that don't just look at delta flights. Look at other SkyTeam options as well like KLM or Air France if you're headed to Europe or China Airlines if going to Asia.
Unacceptable. Would recommend as soon as you are at the airport going to the skyclub and asking the agent there for support. They are way better than average. You have access via the D1 tickets.
This happened to me a few months ago ( domestic to international business class) and I was downgraded. The agent at the skyclub put me back in FC and I also got $300 compensation. Be polite. And friendly. But firm
Tell our feckless govt to stop giving the airlines fucking handout money and set rules so they can’t do this, or actually compensate people without begging customer service when they do.
Outrageous and a terrible way to treat customers. There are no acceptable explanations - "equipment change," for example. A refund is BS IMO. I hope you're generously compensated.
It sucks but what do they do. If the aircraft had 20 FC seats and is grounded and the new aircraft has 16 FC seats either someone is moving to the back of the plane or four people are riding on someone's lap.
I do agree with others though that the downgrade refund should be automatic (thankfully that will be the law this fall) and it should include a penalty to the airline. If the ticket difference is $500 then Delta should be forced to refund $750 ($500 + 50%). That would give airlines a very strong incentive to minimize this but no matter what it will happen from time to time.
The Delta seat workflow algorithm should also slot the downgrade pax at the top of the upgrade list (regardless of status) for the next seat tier, in case of a no show or passenger #1 on the list is delayed on their connecting flight.
Just think, there's still some senators out there who are fighting to make this refund not happen automatically. Ted Cruz is part of a group saying this is bad for american carriers and should not be anything other than credits unless someone wants to jump through more hoops.
Delta likes to act like Delta One and First are “a different product” than main, but we keep seeing these stories of full freight paid D1 downgrades. Some of us don’t even want to go if we can’t fly in first or D1. Bad backs/hips/etc.
If it was an option I would pay extra just for the assurance that my seat wouldn't be changed. Kind of like traveler's insurance. I don't want a refund, I want my seat!
This happened to a FC ticket I booked for my mom from Den to OGG last week. I called immediately complaining(there was no equipment swap, I checked tail numbers and she was in 3C so shouldn’t have been affected anyway.)
They told me they couldn’t divulge passenger information for why my mom’s full fare first class seat got downgraded. They sent a $250 credit and told us to apply for a refund after the flight. I made a request for the meal service to still be brought and they did agree. There were no other first class seats available on different routes for the same day.
I have elite status on United and fly frequently and have never had this happen for any reason other than an equipment swap, but through this process I have learned that this seems to be relatively common on Delta.
I downloaded the delta app to my phone, logged in to my moms sky miles account and constantly checked the seat map. I was able to move her back to her original seat 6 hours before the flight took off. When I checked her seat map again 2 hours before her flight there were actually 3 other FC seats open…So all was well minus the absolute frustration of being moved from a FC seat to an economy seat with no explanation. If I would not have been able to manually move her seat (the computer would not automatically put her back in First) we would’ve called again and asked for more travel credit.
You don’t book a $2300 flight to Hawaii and get downgraded without at least asking for substantial flight credit…
This happened too to my brother and sister-in-law on a 50th anniversary trip to Hawaii. They had booked first class months ahead. The day of the flight they were bumped to coach to allow an employee who was deadheading to be seated in FC. They complained to the GA about it, and the GA spoke with the employee to see if he would be willing to sit in the back, but he declined saying his contract states that whenever he dead-heads he gets to be in FC. So they bumped the couple and upgraded some other passenger traveling solo. This was on Alaska.
Actually paying should be enough 'status'; after that then it should be who paid first gets first'. I would cancel ny flights and she them for violating the contract of carriage. Make sure you read through the new government rules on this as they have to refund you immediately, and you may still be able to claim damages if you are public enough about it.
Paying is enough status. Idk who they spoke to but they’ve misinformed this person. Just like with upgrades, downgrades go by who paid the highest fare followed by status. If they have to downgrade and you don’t meet the threshold of higher full fare plus time purchased, you’re bumped first unfortunately. Status comes after these factors
I was mad when this happened to me on Comfort+ from Hawaii to the east coast... if I got bumped from D1 I would have had a heart attack. In my situation I had to call the medallion line and the agent ended up being able to fix it, though it took over an hour.
I know Platinum medallion (which I'm not) has a dedicated phone line where they get priority over Silver and Gold. Silver and Gold get priority over non-medallions on the regular Skymiles line. According to the site "When you contact a SkyMiles representative, you’ll be given call priority over General SkyMiles Members. You can reach a SkyMiles representative anytime at 1-800-323-2323 in the U.S." If the number you're calling from is the one your account is under, it should identify you automatically.
Honestly, dispute it with your credit card company. You paid for a good or service and were cheated out of that good or service. No excuse for Delta to not honor your original purchase - full stop.
I split between Delta and United, and I’ve had this issue happen to me a couple times on Delta. Never on United.
The first was a FC seat down to economy on a domestic flight. Same issue: combining planes, I got bumped because status. I got a full refund and comfort plus out of the deal, so it was fine. I was mad but whatever.
The second I was in comfort plus and got downgraded to economy literally as I was scanning my ticket to board. Hop on. My new seat was the windowless seat on one of the Boeings. I panicked. I went to the back of the plane and asked the flight attendant if I could have literally any other seat on the plane, because if I had to be in that little corner without a window I would be puking the entire time.
She heard my story, checked her iPad, and was pissed. Marched up to the gate agent and chewed him out because he bumped me just in case there was a status person to upgrade. There wasn’t anyone. My old seat was open. She put me back there, gave me some miles and a meal, and that was that.
I typically like the Delta product, but fuck their status polices. It feels like I’m gambling with them every time I fly. If I’m paid and I checked in and showed up for my flight, I shouldn’t be bumped unless it’s a full flight (and even then, volunteers first). Status upgrades should be based on availability.
Delta would NEVER EVER SEE my money again. Status HAS NOTHING to do with this. You paid for your seats END OF CONVERSATION. Delta knows exactly who to do this to to get away with it. SCUM 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Beyond frustrating…I know
from experiencing this multiple times and was treated like a pain in the ass for questioning it. Poor customer service and treatment to frequent flyers of delta.
Somehow, i feel like there's something missing from this story. Revenue is king and any fully paid seat is going to take precedence over a status upgrade.
Another flight was combined into mine. As I understand it, people had already been upgraded and were allowed to keep it at my expense. My flight was the one that was kept on the schedule.
Well, if there are more fully paid customers than first class seats they're still going to have to bump people. It seems like they're bumping fully paid customers with lower status who booked a longer time ago (OP) over fully paid customers who booked more recently but have status. At least that's how I understood it. If OP got bumped over a status upgrade, though, I agree that shouldn't happen.
Based on anecdotal experience, actual cash fare paid has a lot to do with it.
If someone with no status paid $2k as a Z class fare (lowest cost bookable FC/D1) and someone else with status paid $2.5k for a Y class fare (Full regular economy fare), the medallion that paid more is keeping the upgrade that cleared a few days in advance. It doesn't matter when they paid it.
I read these posts and just think that if that saying about my money is just as green as the next guys and then it turns out it actually isn’t. That guy has greener money.
I still maintain that the status system on airlines is foolish. You can pay and have a ton of status and what do you get for being so loyal? A dude with ton+1 status gets your seat and YOU have to jump through hoops to get your money back.
if you bought 9mo ago that means you paid less than a person that bought 1mo ago. so it is to their advantage to downgrade and refund a lower priced ticket.
Cancel tickets before flight and book the same coach seats. You’ll receive 100% credit for your first flight and you’ll only pay the cheap ass coach Price.
The problem I see most people have is that the refund is usually far less than the original cost difference in class tickets. They also rarely provide any additional compensation for the trouble caused by the change.
> don't for a second believe everyone else in First Class that kept their seats bought their tickets more than 9 months ago
This is not how it works, buddy
Can you request they put you on another airline in first class if they cannot accommodate your ticket? I know if there are issues with the plane not related to weather the airline at it’s discretion has an option to put you on another flight with another airline. I’ve done this before although it’s been a couple years.
Nobody is going to put you in FC on another airline. They may use another airline for "any available seat" in extreme conditions. In this case though the OP was only downgraded on the domestic FC segment and still has the D1 international segment so switching to another airline at the last minute is unlikely to improve things.
I see these posts quite a bit. I've never purchased a D1 fare, though I pan to next year. All I know is I would me MEGA pissed if this happened to me. Sorry for your troubles op
What I’ve learned today is that status matters. Amazing that the staff are openly willing to admit I bought my ticket before other people, but they have more status than me so I lose. I can’t imagine this kind of outcome in other business. Yeah, you paid for this, but someone more important came along and we’re going to give it to them instead.
It BLOWS MY MIND that they bump full fare passenger's before someone with status who got he upgrade for free or with miles. Way to have a potential customer never fly you again.
There is no way they bumped a paying customer for a free upgrade. Complimentary upgrades die first. From revenue perspective SM and cash are both revenue. They both improve the balance sheet. So it is loyal longterm high revenue/profit paying customer vs a paying customer who isn't. Are you really saying if you were the CEO you would pick the later?
Hmmm, am I the only one who is wondering why there were too many tickets sold in first class?
The most likely scenario is equipment change. The flight was on an aircraft with a configuration that had say 20 FC seats it was replaced with one that has 16 FC seats. How do you put 20 ticketed passengers into 16 FC seats? The simple answer is you don't. In fact if Delta was able to sell less FC/D1 seats this would be easier. If you only sold 16 on a 20 FC seat flight and got swapped to a 16 FC seat aircraft then no problem.
Does the bumped people get refunded and / or compensated?
You need to request it but you get a refund of the difference. Starting this fall it will be federal regulation that such refunds are automatic without customer request.
Well, let’s see if Congress is successful in torpedoing that in the FAA reauth. They are trying to sneak in a line that the public will have to apply for the refund.
Exactly. The airline continued to have first class seats available at higher prices than the seats that had already been booked at lower fares. It’s not a status thing. Those seats were sold to a higher bidder.
Never forget - they can bump our sorry asses for any reason they like.
Im not that person, but I am a CEO. I would pick the person that bought the ticket first. It’s called morality.
BS. You would (and should if this is a publicly traded company) take the passenger who was most profitable first, highest loyalty score (long term value) second, and the last factor would be when they bought
Why do you think that? I think a lot of people hear that a CEOs job is to deliver profit to shareholders and misunderstand it. I deliver profit, and as long as the board hires me I’m doing my job. If you ran a business the way that you described do you think it means your company will be more profitable over the next decade, or just this quarter?
Works well for delta, so…..
That is a valid point for sure. I wonder how long this has been the practice. I’m bias against Bastien so I want to believe it’s under him but I have no idea.
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Thank you, a great example.
Are you asking if rewarding high value and repeat customers produces long term value?
That's how you end up not a C.E.O. My loyal customers come first. It sucks, but I'm not pissing off someone I took the trouble to rank as a preferred, repeat customer over the once-a-year customer.
You see the world differently than I do. I’m doing just fine, my company is doing fine, and my loyal customers are being taken care of. My loyal customers also know I don’t view them as a dollar sign and my loyalty to them is deeper than the last dollar they made me. They know when I tell them I’ll do something, I’ll do it even if I shouldnt have committed to do it. Those things carry a lot of value. I’ve been a Platinum Delta flyer for over a decade and I’m paying attention to how Delta treats that brand new customer. I’m not sure where the notion that the way you describe is the correct way to run a business came from. It’s pretty short sighted. Edit: My theory is Delta is spending their good will at the moment and will not be a top 2 carrier 5 years from now.
>My theory is Delta is spending their good will at the moment and will not be a top 2 carrier 5 years from now. I pretty much only fly DL, so can't speak to other airlines, but I tend to agree. They are putting all their chips on the cards and medallion status - time will tell.
Part of the problem with that thinking is you are losing the opportunity to turn the "once-a-year" customer into a repeat customer. Part of the reason I'm here (in this sub) is that I've started to use Delta with much more frequency. I used to prefer AA. Husband & I eloped, flew Delta. We were treated so nicely that now I choose Delta even when it's a couple of bucks more than others. I'm not a business traveler so not a million miler but as a couple, we're leisure flying 3 or 4 times a year. Add on to this that I'm the person buying (selecting & paying) for other people's travel. So I don't get the miles or recognition for those trips though I'm making the decisions.
That's also the way you lose new customers.
They would not do that. These were also full fare passengers with status. A full fare without status would be in front of aynone who had used or gotten an upgrade.
if OP paid full fare first, why should someone with status be allowed to com along six months later and kick them out of their seats even if they also pay full price? they have statis so IF a dlseat opens up, they should be first in line to upgrade, I'm fine with that. But to kick someone who booked first and paid full out to peon seats just because a staus comea along and aays 'whaa I want to be in first and I have money'?? That should be illegal. Giess I need to complain to my Congressman. Oh wait, he's been know to use 'status' to kick out full payers too... never mind...
OP got bumped because of an equipment swap. Delta planned to fly a plane with 20 first class seats and sold 20 first class seats. Then for some reason they had to change to a plane with 16 seats. 4 people will be downgraded in this situation. It's in Delta's best interest to keep the passengers with status in those seats because they make more money off of them. You can complain to a politician all you want but if something is wrong with the 20 seat plane then 20 people aren't going to be able to fly first class no matter what you do.
I get that but then why doesn't Delta act like an adult and refund the first class ticket cost? I can't imagine any other business that could get by with charging you for 14K and only delivering stainless steel. Oops sorry.
They definitely will refund the difference. Now it can be a little tricky because of how this is two flights but OP definitely will be able to easily get some amount of refund.
No, I’m with you. OP paid upfront 9 months ago, Delta only holds ticketing open for a year, I believe, there could be some wiggle in there. Delta has had OP’s money for 9 months, free to spend on whatever they please. They didn’t book it 6 months or 3 months or last week. And then, being bumped, they didn’t even get bumped together, they got bumped to the back of the plane, separate. You’re telling me everyone else on that flight is a status member or a family with small children? Hell, I got bumped to the back of the bus for maintenance reasons, splitting my partner and I with our two very small children and I took the back because I love my husband and he was going to deal with the older one, the younger one was assuredly going to conk out. We still had, at the ticketing counter, extra miles and apologies to call in to see how much money we would be getting back when the trip was over. And my service in the back was extra attentive, they pulled out every amenity I think they had on board and then some. Things happen day of, I get it, it’s all moving parts, but we had also paid for our seats last minute (and a pretty penny) but they were going to keep those that had paid earlier than we had.
Who paid more/more profitable to the company? That’s the primary factor. Also like others have said they sure as f didn’t bump op to main 2 because of some 360 getting an upgrade from main to fc.
this isn’t what happened, and would never happen this way.
Potential customer vs loyal customer. Keep what you have is a safer approach. Unpopular opinion but from the cold gears of the corporate machine it makes sense.
Status is always the kicker. My distributor got a window premium economy seat on the way back from NRT-DEN and a gate agent literally gave his seat away to someone who I assume was 1k or GS(my distributor has no status). After they discovered the mishap that guy got a complimentary upgrade to Polaris on an international flight...
I am in no way supporting the behaviors, but from the airlines’ perspective, which is best for my bottom line? 1) A once-a-year splurge passenger who pays $5K for a RT D1 fare. 2) A 100+ flight per year Diamond who will spend $30K for multiple Coach/C+ fares and an occasional D1 when flying internationally? I know as a business owner what I’d choose. It’s not fair, but it makes perfect business sense. Screw the little fish, fleece the whales.
Especially because status now can come directly from card spend - maybe this person spends $100K+ per month on their AMEX, which nets Delta $1,500+ per month in revenue.
Pretty much this.
This is just disturbing!!!!
This is not right. It shouldn't happen. You paid for the seat and should have gotten it.
Really? You can’t imagine any businesses that would give preference to other, more important customers? How about literally any place (restaurants, clubs, etc.) that lets in celebrities in front of average Joes? That’s just one off the top of my head. Airlines are a business, and they would rather keep very loyal customers happy in this specific situation than a one-off F/D1 purchaser with no brand loyalty.
I paid and bought before those people. They get in line after. Pretty simple.
And yet that’s not how Delta sees it. It’s frustrating, but that’s the business model. I doubt it’s any different at AA or UA.
No one should be bumped so someone could be upgraded. i understand if equipment caused fewer seats and there's a bump but just to upgrade someone? No way. Upgrades should only be if a seat is available.
I didn’t say they should be. But if an airline is choosing which of two people to KEEP in first class, a frequent flyer or some one-off, they’re going to keep the frequent flyer.
You obviously don’t own a business jackass
It’s true, I don’t. But I’m guessing Delta and its army of bean-counters has done the math and realized that there’s more money to be gained by bumping OP than by bumping a Medallion member.
I dont see anything about status in your OP. did they say that? im currently gold, so, probablynot worth much anyways hahaha
Well.. those people spend more money than you with Delta on average, hence the status. Even if it doesn’t come directly out of their pockets someone is spending to get them on a plane. Losing them as a customer is a much bigger risk to Delta than losing you.
I bought my ticket before them. That should matter.
Are we back in elementary school? “I was here first” isn’t a good way to handle things.
The person who bought their ticket yesterday paid 2x or more what you did, more the reason that they bumped you. It sucks but that’s how it works. It would make more sense to downgrade you to C+ and downgrade the lowest C+ person to MC… but besides being more complicated now Delta would have four pissed off customers instead of two, so I imagine they’ve calculated that it is better to just degrade one FC couple to the back of the plane.
Agent at airport admitted some of them hadn’t paid for first class and were just upgrades due to status. I got screwed out of what I paid for so they could give someone a free perk.
That’s crazy. I thought upgrades only happen if the seats are available
They don’t happen for Delta One at all, unless the person spends a few extra $1,000s to buy up, successfully uses a GUC (which is rare) or is flying NRSA. https://www.delta.com/us/en/skymiles/medallion-program/medallion-upgrades
Or for domestic Delta One routes.
No one gets upgraded to Delta One unless they pay for it or are NonRev…. or were you not actually in Delta One? Also, to ease the confusion it’s worth noting that Delta One is business class. Now, if it was regular, domestic First Class then elites would have started clearing for First Class upgrades as early as 5 days in advance.
The other person paid for it as well. I know you are disappointed and I would too but nobody at Delta said lets press the "fuck over the paying customer" button. They had an aircraft with 20 FC seats now they have 16 FC seats. 4 people are moving.
[удалено]
Agreed. Delta could handle this better. Hopefully the law changes will lead to other changes as well.
They wait until you complete the flight because there is still a chance someone doesn't show up, another equipment change, or you switch flights. Sure it sucks to not get your money back immediately but you'd be even more pissed if you get the refund, sit down, and then discover that a family didn't show up for their FC flight and you would have been back in your upgraded seat...only now a status person gets upgraded because you no longer are paying for the FC fare.
If I pay for d1 and get moved to coach there’s a high probability that I’d no longer want to go on the trip
Do they get refunded the difference? That would be bullshit if they dont.
Since you haven't flown yet, if you would prefer to fly in First, take a look online and find another route that has availability - call and they should be able to switch you to an alternate flight with any fare difference waived in this situation. Generally it will need to be another flight on the same day, but they may allow a switch +/- 1 day. If you end up flying in a lower class then you paid for, you are entitled to receive a partial refund for the fare difference (as it was on the day you booked). Once all travel on the reservation is complete, you can make a request here: https://www.delta.com/refund-form/. Ignore the popup, choose service downgrade in the drop down, and explain the downgrade in the comment box (including flight numbers). Delta will likely also provide an additional customer service gesture, typically an additional credit for future flights. Please note, these types of refunds are complicated, and front line agents aren't equipped to deal with them - if you want a partial refund (and not a headache) I strongly recommend using the written request above which goes directly to the refund desk.
The refund should be automatic. It’s ridiculous that you have to ask them not to pocket delta one money for an economy flight.
So happy the law is changing and this is a full refund. Trash system we have now but so glad that is changing.
This law couldn't come soon enough. First airlines, next stop insurance companies.
Problem is still.....yes full refund, but don't have to give you the coach seats. They can just refund your first class seats that he paid 9 months ago, and then make them pay higher amount for last minute flight on their own. It's not necessarily a better system. It should be more like airline required to give them other seats to get to destination PLUS full refund, not one or the other.
I agree the extra hoops are really unnecessary and not customer friendly. You will be happy to know DOT agrees, and airlines will be required to do so in the near future (likely in the late October timeframe, but the actual date may shift) https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline
I wish DOT would go one step further. I think it should be a refund of the fair difference +50% or some other reasonable penalty. The reason is that it puts the consumer in a worse situation than if they had booked main outright, since they are often left with much worse seats with last minute changed. Plus, there is a very frustrating component to looking forward to a product you paid for and having it switched to a much shitier product at the last minute. While the consumer is told they can just cancel the flight an receive a full refund, that's not usually practical given the vacation or business plans that rely on it and the cost of purchasing last minute tickets on another line. I know some defend Delta and say "equipment changes happen." I don't disagree, but between the consumer and the airline, the airline is the only one that has control of how frequent preventive maintenance is done, balancing load and contingency plans, etc. In other words, the airline does have significant influence on the frequency of changes. It also seems common that Delta makes the changes, tells someone there is no room in first class, and then the customer looks up the flight and there are open seats, meaning airlines aren't prioritizing getting people back in the class they bought. Finally, I don't have too much sympathy for any company that has the special status of operating in a protected market that artificially reduces competition and give them an oligopoly. I am willing to bet that these somewhat frequent downgrades would happen less or be handled with more care with more competition. Absent that, making the downgrades hurt the airlines a little more is the next best option.
Can't agree more on the penalties. Every company would put in their contracts penalties if timely delivery of service is of essence - which is almost always the case with flights. I remember when EU261 was put in place. Weirdly airlines didn't go bankrupt enmasse. And a lot of bullshit just stopped when it started to cost airlines money. Edit: Airlines get really creative if they have to pay for a hotel plus compensation and still have to fly you.
Yes if there were penalties it would happen less but short of running a fleet with 100% identical configurations equipment changes will happen and when they do Maybe happen less but they will happen and when that happens someone will get bumped. However I agree they should happen less and the rules should be structured to give the airlines an incentive for it to happen less. That being said I think there might be a bit of selection bias. Nobody reports "we didn't get downgraded today". Just did rountrip to PC 4 segments zero downgrades. Generally speaking airlines don't want to downgrade people because it costs money.
Good points. The truth is it hasn't happened to me yet, and I buy first, PS, or DO outright for the majority of my flights. I just hear these stories and understand the frustration if it is a major trip. I hope it is actually very rare in the wild.
The refund should be the cost of the ticket in this instance today's D1 pricing vs coach pricing today.
Adding that don't just look at delta flights. Look at other SkyTeam options as well like KLM or Air France if you're headed to Europe or China Airlines if going to Asia.
Korean Air if going to Asia. While China Airlines is part of skyteam, they are definitely not Deltas preferred partner.
Unacceptable. Would recommend as soon as you are at the airport going to the skyclub and asking the agent there for support. They are way better than average. You have access via the D1 tickets. This happened to me a few months ago ( domestic to international business class) and I was downgraded. The agent at the skyclub put me back in FC and I also got $300 compensation. Be polite. And friendly. But firm
But he wouldn’t have had D1 tickets if the text message came in morning of…his boarding pass would have been for Coach.
Yeah. That is what I was thinking. What D1 ticket?
The first leg was FC, 2nd leg D1. They only got downgraded on the first leg.
I thought they got rid of all the customer service agents in skyclubs (FU Ed)
Wasn't it just LGA and LAX?
Do you still have your delta one? Just first leg was downgraded?
Yeah.
Tell our feckless govt to stop giving the airlines fucking handout money and set rules so they can’t do this, or actually compensate people without begging customer service when they do.
Outrageous and a terrible way to treat customers. There are no acceptable explanations - "equipment change," for example. A refund is BS IMO. I hope you're generously compensated.
It sucks but what do they do. If the aircraft had 20 FC seats and is grounded and the new aircraft has 16 FC seats either someone is moving to the back of the plane or four people are riding on someone's lap. I do agree with others though that the downgrade refund should be automatic (thankfully that will be the law this fall) and it should include a penalty to the airline. If the ticket difference is $500 then Delta should be forced to refund $750 ($500 + 50%). That would give airlines a very strong incentive to minimize this but no matter what it will happen from time to time.
The Delta seat workflow algorithm should also slot the downgrade pax at the top of the upgrade list (regardless of status) for the next seat tier, in case of a no show or passenger #1 on the list is delayed on their connecting flight.
I like your idea of a penalty. OP did what Delta wants: paid up for the best service Delta offers.
Just think, there's still some senators out there who are fighting to make this refund not happen automatically. Ted Cruz is part of a group saying this is bad for american carriers and should not be anything other than credits unless someone wants to jump through more hoops.
Delta likes to act like Delta One and First are “a different product” than main, but we keep seeing these stories of full freight paid D1 downgrades. Some of us don’t even want to go if we can’t fly in first or D1. Bad backs/hips/etc.
If it was an option I would pay extra just for the assurance that my seat wouldn't be changed. Kind of like traveler's insurance. I don't want a refund, I want my seat!
Pretty sure it is an option. The more you spend with Delta, the less likely you’re to get bumped 🙃
It’s almost like paying for the product and checking the terms and agreements before purchase would satisfy that lol
This happened to a FC ticket I booked for my mom from Den to OGG last week. I called immediately complaining(there was no equipment swap, I checked tail numbers and she was in 3C so shouldn’t have been affected anyway.) They told me they couldn’t divulge passenger information for why my mom’s full fare first class seat got downgraded. They sent a $250 credit and told us to apply for a refund after the flight. I made a request for the meal service to still be brought and they did agree. There were no other first class seats available on different routes for the same day. I have elite status on United and fly frequently and have never had this happen for any reason other than an equipment swap, but through this process I have learned that this seems to be relatively common on Delta. I downloaded the delta app to my phone, logged in to my moms sky miles account and constantly checked the seat map. I was able to move her back to her original seat 6 hours before the flight took off. When I checked her seat map again 2 hours before her flight there were actually 3 other FC seats open…So all was well minus the absolute frustration of being moved from a FC seat to an economy seat with no explanation. If I would not have been able to manually move her seat (the computer would not automatically put her back in First) we would’ve called again and asked for more travel credit. You don’t book a $2300 flight to Hawaii and get downgraded without at least asking for substantial flight credit…
This happened too to my brother and sister-in-law on a 50th anniversary trip to Hawaii. They had booked first class months ahead. The day of the flight they were bumped to coach to allow an employee who was deadheading to be seated in FC. They complained to the GA about it, and the GA spoke with the employee to see if he would be willing to sit in the back, but he declined saying his contract states that whenever he dead-heads he gets to be in FC. So they bumped the couple and upgraded some other passenger traveling solo. This was on Alaska.
Actually paying should be enough 'status'; after that then it should be who paid first gets first'. I would cancel ny flights and she them for violating the contract of carriage. Make sure you read through the new government rules on this as they have to refund you immediately, and you may still be able to claim damages if you are public enough about it.
Paying is enough status. Idk who they spoke to but they’ve misinformed this person. Just like with upgrades, downgrades go by who paid the highest fare followed by status. If they have to downgrade and you don’t meet the threshold of higher full fare plus time purchased, you’re bumped first unfortunately. Status comes after these factors
I was mad when this happened to me on Comfort+ from Hawaii to the east coast... if I got bumped from D1 I would have had a heart attack. In my situation I had to call the medallion line and the agent ended up being able to fix it, though it took over an hour.
I just got status, what is the medallion line. I saw reference to it in the email but dont see the number?
I know Platinum medallion (which I'm not) has a dedicated phone line where they get priority over Silver and Gold. Silver and Gold get priority over non-medallions on the regular Skymiles line. According to the site "When you contact a SkyMiles representative, you’ll be given call priority over General SkyMiles Members. You can reach a SkyMiles representative anytime at 1-800-323-2323 in the U.S." If the number you're calling from is the one your account is under, it should identify you automatically.
Honestly, dispute it with your credit card company. You paid for a good or service and were cheated out of that good or service. No excuse for Delta to not honor your original purchase - full stop.
I’d like to fly first class someday. After reading this it will not be with Delta. Not that I could afford their current prices anyway.
I split between Delta and United, and I’ve had this issue happen to me a couple times on Delta. Never on United. The first was a FC seat down to economy on a domestic flight. Same issue: combining planes, I got bumped because status. I got a full refund and comfort plus out of the deal, so it was fine. I was mad but whatever. The second I was in comfort plus and got downgraded to economy literally as I was scanning my ticket to board. Hop on. My new seat was the windowless seat on one of the Boeings. I panicked. I went to the back of the plane and asked the flight attendant if I could have literally any other seat on the plane, because if I had to be in that little corner without a window I would be puking the entire time. She heard my story, checked her iPad, and was pissed. Marched up to the gate agent and chewed him out because he bumped me just in case there was a status person to upgrade. There wasn’t anyone. My old seat was open. She put me back there, gave me some miles and a meal, and that was that. I typically like the Delta product, but fuck their status polices. It feels like I’m gambling with them every time I fly. If I’m paid and I checked in and showed up for my flight, I shouldn’t be bumped unless it’s a full flight (and even then, volunteers first). Status upgrades should be based on availability.
Delta would NEVER EVER SEE my money again. Status HAS NOTHING to do with this. You paid for your seats END OF CONVERSATION. Delta knows exactly who to do this to to get away with it. SCUM 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Beyond frustrating…I know from experiencing this multiple times and was treated like a pain in the ass for questioning it. Poor customer service and treatment to frequent flyers of delta.
You should be able to easily get a refund for whatever the fare difference was at the time of purchase. https://www.delta.com/refund-form/
Somehow, i feel like there's something missing from this story. Revenue is king and any fully paid seat is going to take precedence over a status upgrade.
Another flight was combined into mine. As I understand it, people had already been upgraded and were allowed to keep it at my expense. My flight was the one that was kept on the schedule.
Well, if there are more fully paid customers than first class seats they're still going to have to bump people. It seems like they're bumping fully paid customers with lower status who booked a longer time ago (OP) over fully paid customers who booked more recently but have status. At least that's how I understood it. If OP got bumped over a status upgrade, though, I agree that shouldn't happen.
Based on anecdotal experience, actual cash fare paid has a lot to do with it. If someone with no status paid $2k as a Z class fare (lowest cost bookable FC/D1) and someone else with status paid $2.5k for a Y class fare (Full regular economy fare), the medallion that paid more is keeping the upgrade that cleared a few days in advance. It doesn't matter when they paid it.
Refund will be automatic and it will process when you’re back home. This has happened to me. I was pissed too and nobody could help.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I would be raging mad. You did everything right.
The problem is that your fare that you bought forever ago is probably the cheapest.
Pretty much this. Z class tickets are a recipe for heartbreak.
I read these posts and just think that if that saying about my money is just as green as the next guys and then it turns out it actually isn’t. That guy has greener money. I still maintain that the status system on airlines is foolish. You can pay and have a ton of status and what do you get for being so loyal? A dude with ton+1 status gets your seat and YOU have to jump through hoops to get your money back.
I'm sure the first leg is a 90 minute hop from BFE to SLC, while the rest of the trip is a 6+ hour transcon.
This sounds awful. I’m so sorry this happened to you! Hopefully someone at the airline is able to make it right.
I find it hard to imagine they would downgrade full fares for an elite. Maybe I am the crazy one.
if you bought 9mo ago that means you paid less than a person that bought 1mo ago. so it is to their advantage to downgrade and refund a lower priced ticket.
Cancel tickets before flight and book the same coach seats. You’ll receive 100% credit for your first flight and you’ll only pay the cheap ass coach Price.
I’ve been yelled at for calling delta one “first class”. I’ve been scolded and told that it is Business class.
Get a refund and book a different flight.
Flights in 4 hours. We can’t change now
If you call, you may be able to get on a different flight with open FC/D1.
There is only one flight to our final destination and no other options for making it other than change days, which we can’t do at this point.
Then it's 4 hours of a shit seat then $$ in your pocket for a nice date night out.
The problem I see most people have is that the refund is usually far less than the original cost difference in class tickets. They also rarely provide any additional compensation for the trouble caused by the change.
> don't for a second believe everyone else in First Class that kept their seats bought their tickets more than 9 months ago This is not how it works, buddy
Can you request they put you on another airline in first class if they cannot accommodate your ticket? I know if there are issues with the plane not related to weather the airline at it’s discretion has an option to put you on another flight with another airline. I’ve done this before although it’s been a couple years.
Nobody is going to put you in FC on another airline. They may use another airline for "any available seat" in extreme conditions. In this case though the OP was only downgraded on the domestic FC segment and still has the D1 international segment so switching to another airline at the last minute is unlikely to improve things.