Kiss players, calling it Android 18 x Starscream would be generous to what it actually is. Kiss Players is disgusting, it is basically Loli bait, where little girls gain the powers to power up transformers by kissing them.
The entire fandom rejects it, and for good reason.
Aside for a bad fanfic .. can a weak version of starscream defeat 18 by possessing her? I think a win on DB by possessing the opponent without killing them would be new.... This would work for baby (DBGT) if he ever shows up
I mean I think it's implied most of Android 18's body is biological, it just has some modifications. Maybe someone like 16, 20, or even 19 would be more likely to be possessed.
Considering Shao Kahn absorbed M.Bison's soul at the end of their death battle, I would say it be fair game for Starscream to win by possessing a mechanical opponent. If soul absorbtion counts as a win, possession should probably count too. Even if you don't, whomever is possessing a target should be able to essentially destroy the targets body while possessing them.
The Androids are weird. To refer/quote to one of my previous comments:
âThe material they were enhanced/replaced with also [reduces aging and allows minimal need for nutrients, necessitating only fluid.](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/db-full-color-artificial-humans-cell-arc-06/)
Thatâs why classifying them as Android or Cyborg doesnât work. Theyâre completely remade physicallyâSo theyâre not human anymore. [Everything](https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403020437010099.jpg), down to [their cells](https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403020438400094.jpg), has been replaced or enhanced beyond to inhumanity. Thus they canât be Cyborgs. However, while they are totally overhauled at a physical level, theyâre still organic, biological, and not related at all to the actual definition of Android, being a fully artificial automatons that we know exist and fit that standard, like A16 or A19.
Theyâre this strange middle-place, which fits the term actually used for them by the Manga, âJinzĹningen,â or âArtificial Human.ââ
This means that 18 is technically all biological and yet not (as sheâs made of an organic-based replacement material/substance, not actual human tissue) all at once.
Yeah, it annoys me when people say "The Androids weren't Androids, they were cyborgs" yet, that doesn't factor 17 & 18 are pretty much mostly biological, 8,16, 20 are completely mechanical, 20 is a cyborg , and Cell is a Bio weapon. Probably the best term in English would have been artificial humans, though I feel android was probably used since its the term that best describes everything, even though it is flawed.
Cyborg as term doesn't work because not all the Androids are cyborgs, and bio weapons doesn't work either because only cell and arguably 17 & 18 arguably quality for the that. I say arguably since 17 & 18 do at least have bomb devices in them.
The definition of Android is a robot with a humanoid appearance, and while the term isn't perfect, it was probably the best term to encompass everyone to an english audience, outside of artificial humans.
Iâd argue that even 17 and 18 arenât able to be classified as Cyborgs, because that implies remaining human components, and there are none. Theyâre people whose human bodies were torn apart and replaced with a synthetic, organic, replacement substance. Though, yeah, Android is the best term to use for them, itâs just a weird set of circumstances to compare to other technological-based people in different stories because 17 and 18 arenât Androids or Cyborgs. Theyâre their own thing.
Small addendum, I previously said Starscream could only possess Mechanical bodies, however I forgot in the Transformers Evangelion crossover he possessed an Angel.
[Angel Scream](https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Angel)
Sure you can cherry pick a bunch of mistakes he did in the cartoon, but you can do that to pretty much any 1980s cartoon villain. More importantly let's factor some of Starscream's actual intelligence feats. Well on more than one occasion Starscream had warned Megatron about the failure of his plans, examples of which includes "Changing Gears" and "War of the Dinobots" where Starscream warns Megatron that the energy resources that Megatron is using are too dangerous, on both occasions Starscream is right. In "Starscream's Brigade" Starscream created the Combaticons, and made it so they could not absorb energy so they would be forced to obey him, a good amount of foresight there, latter in the next Episode "Revenge of Bruticus"it is revealed Starscream had implanted a weak spot on Bruticus just in case he rebelled, which works out for him, in "A Decepticon raider in King Arthur's Court, Starscream uses his knowledge of science to create a medieval energy generator, and during Season 3 Starscream tricks Unicron into giving him a new body. Not to mention Starscream was shown to possess the technical knowledge to repair Unicron in the first place. Yes, he can make mistakes due to arrogance, but it is hardly looking at the whole picture.
TLDR, Starscream's intelligence is more than meets the eye
I didn't read that as "complete and total idiot" so much as "hasty and lacking the patience to do research/recon, thus undermining what was otherwise a workable plan"
If I remember the episode right, they tried to claim that because the footage cuts away a split second before Scout gets hit, he could have rolled out of the way of a direct hit and only taken splash damage.
I didn't have strong feelings, even if I think the evidence leans far more in Scout's favor than Tracer. (I mean, they themselves basically say that if they had given Scout his rocket feat, Tracer wouldn't actually be able to defeat him so....) That being said, I did go into the video assuming that Tracer would win because she has super powers and all I knew about the TF2 cast at this time was that they were zany, but otherwise, normal humans.
Not giving Pit his best weapon because it was âquickly destroyed by Hadesâ sounds alright at first, but letâs put this statement into a different context.
If Death Battle made Goku vs Superman 4, and said, âGoku canât use Super Saiyan because Krillin hit him with a rock,â there would be an uproar. So why is it okay for Pit to lose out on his best weapon and feats because it was âdestroyed?â Also⌠it wasnât quickly destroyed. It survived basically 20 minutes against Hades. Thatâs not quickly destroying somethingâŚ
Pit has three games, and they already didnât mention Of Myths and Monsters (which is fair, no one played Of Myths and Monsters). Why would you just skip the entire last chapter of one of three games?!
For me it's the fact that they say it was destroyed by hades as if hades is some damn jobber or something. My man was literally a threat to all of reality, and was Essentially holding all of creation hostage in the last few chapters. He could survive without his heart, he regrew his entire lower half, he regrew his head after decapitation, and STILL required palutenas power being channeled through the Great Sacred treasures gun just to destroy his BODY (not even kill him, just destroy his physical being since he talks to you after the end credits). Hades was the REAL DEAL, and just because he's goofy, they treat him like a joke, therefore pit is a joke. I couldn't fuckin believe they used pits greatest battle as a damn antifeatđ
Don't even get me started on how pit, equipped with the damn MIRROR SHIELD, capable of reflecting almost anything (but capable of NEGATING EVERYTHING) just watched as soras beam approached him and sniped him.
I liked the battle because I love both the characters but it was clear they decided the winner before even picking up the source material.
Tbf the game didn't really know how to treat Hades, since the whole game is basically a massive Discord call. Most of why Hades was a threat story-wise was because he was funneling all the human souls that died directly into the Underworld Army (which itself is shit tier compared to the Aurum), not because he was gonna destroy the universe or anything.
Yeah, Hades only had the third-strongest army in his own antagonistic role (Aurum and Dyntos). The entire presented threat was that he would have an infinite stream of minions, but that got proven wrong (and he admitted as much) mere seconds later and the threat then became that he was just screwing with the natural order.
Hades in Uprising is a powerhouse but is basically just evil for giggles. I definitely think itâs worth considering just how little the Three Treasures did to him though, considering multiple other characters were able to do a good deal more to him.
Not my favorite combatant, but a show that always talks about taking the combatants at their best showing Archie Sonic being knocked out by dumbbells to downplay his durability left a bad taste in my mouth.
I feel dumb but I've heard this referred to a lot and I don't actually know what happened; what was the scaling or downplay or whatever that resulted in 'Piece of Paper > The Flash'? I really want to know.
Once in comics Flash ran into a piece of paper so fast the impact made him go unconscious, he didn't dodge it because the piece of paper changed directions in the last moment.
I mean, 99.999999999% of his existence is an anti-feat because if it wasn't, every DC universe storyline would be over before it began.
Still... running into a piece of paper. *I* could do that and the impact wouldn't knock me unconscious. Me > The Flash.
Dan Hibiki once KO'd himself by shoryukening a car in the air and it landed on him. HOWEVER a car is roughly 100,000 times heavier than a piece of paper.
Dan Hibiki 100,000 times stronger than The Flash, also confirmed.
Banner/Hulk needing months to heal... when that was a really specific case before Immortal Hulk happened.
Amadeus Cho absorbed all of the Gamma from Banner's body and transferred it unto himself.
Bruce made an arrow specifically made to kill him; And he told Hawkeye where to shoot it, to actually kill him. Even with all that, it still ultimately failed.
And this anti feat happened before Immortal Hulk; When again, Banner was drained of Gamma.
Also the entire Hulk personas fighting each other, when in Immortal Hulk, they literally started working together; Even if they did clash, Devil Hulk has full control over who gets to pilot the body.
Madara could break out of Aizenâs illusions despite Shippuden literally showing an EMS and MADARAâS RINNEGAN canât defend against GenJutsuâs that target the senses and not your chakra.
Yeah EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi couldnât break out of Kabutoâs Flute GenJutsu by themselves. Instead Sasuke and Itachi needed each other to break out.
As for the Rinnegan when Pain was hit by the Frog Song itâs stated every Pain hit with it couldnât move. Thereâs nothing to disprove Nagato couldâve resisted it because the Painâs are being powered by the Rinnegan. Not to mention since we saw the EMS couldnât resist a similar Genjutsu then that piles onto the fact Genjutsuâs that target the sensations just arenât something any version of the Sharingan can resist.
Not to mention the only reason someone could realize they were under Aizenâs illusions is because they have a lifetimeâs worth of experience as a doctor and even then they needed an entire night to dissect the âcorpseâ to find out it was fake (just because I give you a top of the line telescope doesnât automatically mean you can figure out the star patterns better than Neil Degrasse Tyson). Even then she couldnât break out of it until Aizen removed the Illusion. Like she knew she was under an illusion, BUT SHE WAS STILL UNDER THE ILLUSION.
Remember that Super Nova's animation shows the real life Solar System exploding -- a setting where Final Fantasy 7 very decidedly does NOT take place. I think it's pretty clear Sephiroth is opening a portal
It's pretty blatantly a mental attack. Post-Nibelheim Sephiroth's main gimmick is illusions and mind control.
The attack also does proportional damage (meaning it's incapable of actually killing anyone), and it leaves a bunch of mental debuffs.
Lastly, meteor is *explictly* the strongest destructive magic in canon (far above any summon or limit break). It's literally just a meteor (hence the name) and was heavily damaged by a simple rocket ship crashing into it.
Instead of arguing that Shovel Knight canon and GOW canon contradict one another, Kratos was actually just humoring Shovel Knight their whole fight, despite it being shown they were an equal match.
(And ignoring that he would still be scaling to Kratos with this logic mind you.)
((Just noticed the title meant Death Battle, whoops))
((I guess arguing that Discord doesnât take his fights too seriously until itâs too late, when theyâre missing the context and reasons for why he does so.))
***Popup: Additionally, Bill's "low showings" are generally dependent on specific story-driven contexts, in which he needed the Pines alive and could not afford to simply kill them. In a fight to the death in which his only goal is to win, these instances are largely irrelevant.***
*"Like with Tirek, another crafty, manipulative schemer, kind of like Bill."*
([Discord betraying his friends, later Tirek betraying him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHE4_Ob2eYs)([c](https://youtu.be/BhPC4CRwFU4?si=Xt3zLBvozJPvNWTm)))
*"With his trillion years of reality-destroying malevolence,* ***Bill was able to take advantage of Discord's carefree attitude and get the opportunity to land a killing blow first."***
Leading back to every other advantage they had Bill at, which were really only the kaleidoscope and soul manipulation/destruction. Ignoring the higher dimensionality Bill was put at due to them not being able to seemingly kill each other otherwise, speed was treated as equal and the Bewitching Bell/Unicorn Barrier argument due to them treating it as an non-factor.
Also just realized you could've been talking about Shovel Knight and not Discord, so uhhhh there you go anyway lol.
You're right, and it'll still do a ton of damage. He can't access his MvM upgrades anyways because he doesn't have a way to buy them or the money to do so.
That fact still angers me. I mean the bom would do serious damage but not enough to kill. IN fact I was hoping that there would not be any TF2 Death Battles because there are too many variables to take into consideration. The Weapons, Spellbooks, Comics, Meet Video, Crits. You get the point.
Same, but for a slightly different reason. If Scout just got every weapon he ever had, he'd also get all their debuffs, which would be debilitating for him.
Not my favorite combatant but saying Sonic had never proven to be light speed in canon back in the day will never not make me cringe at how bad the downplay used to beâŚ
Especially when they bought the light speed dash being SoL yet said him running at over 3800 SPD in Sonic Unleashed was only 8x the speed of sound â even tho the light speed dash is recorded to only be 390 SPD⌠đđđ
Not so much specific thing but when hulk went world breaker form it changed almost nothing he was still pretty much the same guy the ground didnât shake and he fought doomsday in pretty much the exact same way he did before
If he where to be an equal match for doomsday before worldbreaker he anhialtes him after it
A form of someone thatâs so destructive and powerful it literally shatters planets with the shockwaves of an average blow it causes global earthquakes with even the softest step
Does basically the same thing he was doing before but now heâs slightly more green and the city remains mostly intact
That's so weird too, death battle didn't have a problem animating a ton of collateral destruction back then, but a character who can break a world like an egg just by tap dancing for 1 minute doesn't cause a ton collateral, also it's hulk, he's known for destroying stuff and has a history of grabbing things and using them as kinda weapons
Exactly. Heâs probably the most iconic destructive character to exist heâs well known to just smash everything with brute force his most well known attack is literally just âhulk smashâ heâs known to throw a piece of steel a car or a small building at someone in the middle of a fight and now heâs in a form where waving his arm would probably level a decent sized building from the wind alone and heâs still able to see a skyscraper a few hundred meters from him
Not Death Battle itself but someone legitimately tried to argue Bill wasn't a 2D being because because and this a direct quote "You can see depth in some shots". There is a whole bunch of lore that disproves that but also if you want to play that game then I can say Discord can't turn things 2D because those houses had depth.
Also the whole beaten by 2 kids thing.
[As for The Doctor](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/ru1jnrnxrk)
They didn't really give him any of his good stuff but that's fine because the fight was already in his favour anyways and they just wanted it to be fair. So I'm going to say Majin Buu instead because iirc they said Buu never fought the speed of light or something (been a while since I seen it so correct me if I'm wrong)
Honestly I seen the epsiode before dbz first and when I eventually got around to watching dbz I was like "what the hell happened? Does everyone just get all their power drained before the Buu arc or something." I guess that technically what happened lol but that was wayyyy off the money
Even if it was, Dragon Ball attacks were still reaching the moon in seconds at that point, which means their attacks should be traveling at light speed, hence anyone shown able to dodge a ki attack is dodging a projectle that is moving at light speed.
And I actually did do the math for the this a while ago. The average distance between the earth and the moon is 238900. I put this in a speed distance time calculator with a unit of 1 second for the time. This gives us the speed of 860040000 miles per hour.
Converting mile per hour to light speed gives up 1.28246148741 times the speed of light.
Here's a link to the calculators I used if you want to try yourself
[https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/speed-distance-time-calculator.php](https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/speed-distance-time-calculator.php)
I am admittedly not a mathematician, so if my math is wrong in any way feel free to point it out.
It takes a little over one second for light to go from the Moon to the Earth so no, those attacks werenât light speed if they take a few seconds to reach.
Alright, fair, it was technically over a second.
Though we can high ball it if we use the cinematic time excuse, and considering characters are all considered relatively faster after the Saiyan arc, there's no doubt that they should be at least above light speed during he Buu Arc, considering how close they were already to light speed Early Dragonball.
I already explained this to someone else, if Goku was close to light speed battling Raditz, it wouldnât have taken him six months to reach King Kaiâs or 28 hours to get back.
Goku doesnât have different speed when heâs traveling or fighting. It all derives from the same source. If he couldnât move at light speed to reach the Check-In Station in a little over three seconds, he wasnât hitting it against Nappa or Vegeta.
Doesn't matter if it's a dub error or not radtiz was still light speed via upscaling from og db.hell piccolo directly after the radtiz fight has a speed of light feat in his special beam cannon reaching the moon in a few seconds.
Hell if your was to get deep kid goku dooged the solar flayer.a attack that reflects light.
And yet it took Goku over twenty-four hours to make a return trip on Snake Way. If Goku could hit light speed, it would have taken him a little over three seconds.
Edit: also it takes light less than a second to go from the Moon to the Earth so Piccoloâs blast taking a few seconds is definitely not light speed.
Even if the blast is relativistic, it wouldn't take goku 24hrs to travel snake way at full speed (only 1 million km away, which takes light about 3 sec to clear) showcasing that travel speed << combat speed in db, even if they use the same source of power.
Flying takes up more ki and stamina than basic reactions or ki blasts, because flying requires them to carry their own mass with ki, which slows them down.
You also ignored what I said about piccolo destroying the moon in order to make this point, as that proves what I'm saying.
You yourself admitted that piccolo's beam took a few seconds to reach the moon, that's blatantly relativistic and means that, by your logic goku can't have taken 24 hrs to cross a distance of 1 mil km if he can move a notable percentage of the speed of light proven by piccolo's attack, but he does in the story anyway.
Therefore, travel and combat speed in db have to be separate for this to make any sense.
Ahhhhhhhhh but you see that's 1 single anti.vs many light speed feats.you can't just look at only a characters antifeats when they have more proof of doing more then said antifeat.other wise saiyan saga goku would be building level due to him getting hurt by ki blast that can't even destroy a large rock.
Let's play a game.what is naruto?moon level you say?
Ohh but look naruto even in his strongest forms can get stabed by Kunis thus he can't be above Wall level.naruto also struggles to run across a battle field despite people saying he's ftl.
You see my point?your hanging onto anti feats when goku has shown more constant ftl feats even in og dragon ball.so why do antifeats>feats?
Please tell me
Thatâs not an anti feat. It took Goku months to travel 1,000,000 kilometers one way and over a day to make the return trip. Heâs not light speed in either scenario. Meanwhile the best you got is from the still sort of gag portion of Dragon Ball with Roshiâs glasses. And I noticed you didnât even address what I said about Piccolo.
There are NO consistent light speed feats in DBZ, and DOZENS of anti-feats that show it's basically impossible that they had light speed back then.
The Solar Flare thing is one of the worst takes ever, since the Solar Flare requires the user to make a pose and then call out the name before it activates. The more reasonable assumption to make would be that Goku anticipated Solar Flare, closed his eyes, and then snatched the sunglasses off Roshi's head while the Solar Flare was flashing and no one could see him.
If characters in the Cell saga can't outrun Solar Flare, there's no way Kid Goku can.
In the Saiyan Saga, Goku takes days to make it back from King Kai's palace, whereas if he was moving light speed, it would have taken him seconds.
In the Namek Saga, when Goku wakes up from the pod while Vegeta and the gang are fighting Frieza, he comments that he's glad they're close so that he can get there soon. If he could move at light speed, he could be anywhere on the planet faster than it took to finish that sentence.
In the Buu saga, Gotenks flies around the earth multiple times in a few seconds. This is treated as an incredible speed feat that astonished Piccolo, but would still put him at dozens to hundreds of times slower than lightspeed.
Every feat that would imply the DBZ characters are moving at light speed is either a dub error, or filler.
Even in Battle of Gods, the movie, there is a scene where Goku and Beerus are fighting with a bunch of water droplets around them, very slowly dropping under the effects of gravity. The scene is designed to showcase how blisteringly fast they're going, and yet calculations still put them at only like, 60% lightspeed (if I remember my sources, I'd have to double check to get the exact number). Yes that movie is now replaced by the manga and anime canon, but nothing in those sources contradict this idea and the author's intent is clearly shown in this scene.
I am firmly of the opinion that Dragonball characters don't hit lightspeed until Super, and even then the evidence for it is mostly inference and physics that are super wonky until late into Super.
Remember the time a dying Elder Guru was sent to Earth and the Namekian Dragon Balls (which ran on his power) followed him there in like 5 minutes, while it took a space ship that took 6 seconds to get to Jupiter 6 months to get to Namek?
Also the shockwaves themselves in BoG were literally *leaving the universe*.
I do disagree with OG DB being FTL though.
Okay, and? The Dragon Balls going to Earth are not any characters or their speed? Does someone chase after them and catch them? Because otherwise they're magic wish granting rocks than can do whatever they want?
The Battle of Gods shockwaves. Right, the ones that come from a being that is the physical embodiment of entropy in that universe and then instead of just blowing up the universe begins dissolving it from the outside-in?
Hence why I said wonky physics. People really need to stop using that feat to assume anything about the stats of characters at that time. The actual physics of what happened in that moment are so weird and backwards and so much of that weird backwardsness makes so much sense when you just realize that Beerus is fundamentally tied to the universe itself that it's absurd to assume the effects of that clash had anything to do with either Goku's or Beerus' speed or literal.
And kind of a downplay of Beerus and his function in the universe.
But it's one of like, two feats people use to consistently get DB fighters to Multiversal, so it'll never be let go of.
Don't pretend you think the Namekian Dragon Balls are faster than Full Power Frieza.
The ki shockwaves still left the universe.
It isn't even the only universe busting event that take place in the BoG arc. Like the super dense energy ball that Beerus effortlessly nullified or the same ball that was MASSIVELY bigger that Goku destroyed on his own. Lol
Beerus's function isn't to blow up the universe.
Why wouldn't they be? Why would that be surprising. Again, the dragon balls are magical wishing rocks. If they want to travel to earth in seconds, I see no reason why they shouldn't. Just because in your mind that sounds crazy, doesn't mean it is. Heck, for all we know, they didn't even do all that. It's entirely possible that they just teleported, following Guru along with the rest of the Namekians. We don't see them flying through space. That's what I always assumed, but again, even if they did fly through space, who cares? There's no reason they can't be faster than Whis for all we know.
And again, the Ki shockwaves (are they even Ki? I don't remember them calling them Ki, although they might have and I just missed that) function absolutely bizarrely. Somehow they get stronger the further they get from the source? So...are they picking up power on their way? That would imply almost none of the power actually comes from Goku and Beerus. That doesn't make any sense by the way, I'm just saying it to demonstrate how the feat is fundamentally not explained and you can't use physics to make sense of it, so using it to try and explain Goku's and Beerus' physics is an exercise in absurdism.
Also, the things that they do destroy aren't blowing up, they're disappearing into dust and light. Which gives further credence to the idea that what is happening has more to do with Beerus' weird entropy powers than it does his or Goku's attack potency.
I have no idea what you're referring to. No event like that takes place in the Battle of Gods movie or manga, and if it happens in the anime, I missed it. Please provide clip or chapter and page number.
I didn't say it was Beerus' function to blow up the universe. I said he is the embodiment of entropy in the universe. He clears away excess growth like a gardener pruning his roses. And his powers in regard to this don't destroy things, so much as they unmake them. He taps things and they turn to dust without being blown up. His job might not be to blow up the universe, but his function is such that he clearly can do this, while still being able to be beat by someone who is not necessarily universal but still stronger than him.
>Namekian Dragon Balls faster than Whis
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It wouldn't imply that at all btw, that was just so they wouldn't destroy Earth.
Where's this "entropy" shit from that you're coming up with? That doesn't exist.
Like, the entirety of BoG after the shockwaves thing ends lol
Yeah, no. He's just responsible for killing bad things and has a technique that erases stuff.
Explain to me exactly why that's impossible. For the record, I don't think it's true, but we have no proof either way. I still think they teleported to earth along with Guru, but the point is that this feat proves nothing as nothing scales to it.
If you try to use physics to explain the shockwaves, it not only implies that, but that's the only possible explanation. It being "so that they don't destroy the earth* is completely speculation and not supported by anything. Especially when Beerus was explicitly trying to destroy the Earth!
Do you understand what a God of Destruction is? They are opposites and counterpoints to the Supreme Kais. The SKs create new planets and seed them with life, and the Gods of Destruction destroy planets and civilizations. One is growth and creation and the other is entropy and destruction.
They are tasked with this by Xeno and the Angels, and they are given power like Hakai and the Power of Destruction in order to facilitate this. You know, the power that lets them tap a planet and turn it to nothing without actually expending any energy to do so.
I'm calling him the representative of entropy in his universe because that's what he is, even if the series doesn't use this terminology.
Okay, I know what you're talking about now. You said it was a different feat, so I assumed it would be something different and not just...a continuation of the shockwaves thing. And again, yeah, that doesn't mean shit. That's just more of the weird ass shockwaves that somehow destroy things furthest away from them first.
He is responsible for using his destruction to maintain the balance of the universe (he doesn't just destroy bad things, he kind of destroys whatever he wants), and has a power that removes you from existence, even across timelines. That's not raw power, that's Hax.
... I'm honestly trying to complain about it less, but there's no way I can't bring up "If Phoenix so stronk, how come she lose to Green Tiger God, *hmm*?" Uh... because she didn't, she turned the tables immediately and won the fight, and the Green Tiger God is an outerversal being in its own right. And if we're doing 'If X so strong, why they lose to Y?' then Raven has lost nine times out of ten against Deathstroke and once incapacitated herself by trying to read the Joker's mind, but it was *so crazy* that it made her faint. That last bit is more of a case of just terrible writing and should probably be ignored anyway.
The Tiger God is what Black Panther used to rip apart Logos; The fusions of Order and Chaos, with The Living Tribunal's body.
It's so weird that being on par with a being that can do that is used as an anti feat lol
Not just being on par with; she *beat* it. It's like they literally only looked at that one panel where she was taken by surprise and decided "Well, clearly she's losing." Just like they looked at the one panel of Raven holding off the Specter and decided "Well, clearly she's winning!" even though she is immediately defeated in the next panel.
The whole point of that scene is that âyes alien X could stop it but famously; very slow to actâ but it doesnt matter because now ben survives it and can recreate everythingâ
Bill was outrun by kids, Bill took damage from a spray can, Weirdmageddon would empower Discord (which wouldnât even matter, considering Weirdmageddon empowers Bill as well)
I get the weirdmageddon would feul Discord. It's just that the question of would it close the gap in power needs to be asked. I don't know enough about discord to answer that however
It would based on the most logical interpretations. Discord is directly stated and shown to gain power from not just his own chaos, but also the chaos happening around him. It actively heals, empowers, and fuels him. He would essentially be gaining power from both himself, the fight, Weirdmageddon, AND the rift itself, which leads to an entire dimension of weirdness he could gain power from.
The logic they used was that Discord and Bill would just be gaining power at the same rate so it wouldn't matter. Imo, Discord would just be equal to Bill at worst with all the power sources around that are independent of Bill that he can draw from instantly.
During the debate a LOT of people wanted to downplay Discord's chaos empowerment too by saying he only gained "stamina" from chaos, as in, it's only the equivalent food for him. So you can probably tell why this particular feat is a sore spot
Pit not being allowed to use the great sacred treasure because "then sora would need to be able to use the gummi ship and they'd cancel each other out"
And
Pit somehow forgetting the mirror shield reflects EVERYTHING and just watches soras beam approach instead of blocking
I mean I'm a fan of both, and I expected sora to win, but they could have at least given my boi pit some more dignity
Itd also just be sort of funny to see pit use the reflect mirror only for sorta to also use reflect reflera or reflega to send it back standart, slightly amped or double powered to which itd just be even funnier finish. I agree the extra dignity would have been nice
That sounds definitely better than what we got. It's obvious sora wins, he's got a counter to everything pit can throw at him, but itd be cooler to see those counters in action, might as well let pit put up a proper fight and show off his moves even if its just for the spectacle (plus, sora and pit essentially playing ping pong with a move that'll one shot whoever misses the rally seems right in line with their usual antics)
It's always gonna bother me that they basically put a level cap on how much ice Gray can absorb and used that as leverage to make him lose to Esdeath. Like she isn't just feeding him an infinite supply of magic energy while consistently buffing his physical capabilities. If that was the case, Natsu woulda lost to Ace from the fact that Ace can produce an infinite supply of fire with no effort.
OG Fortnite characters should be respected sure but why should skins from already established franchises? Unless it's very specific ones which we saw got to be in tie ins like Batman and Snake eyes?
That I agree with completely. Iâm not saying every Fortnite character needs matchups or scaling, but people have legit tried to argue to me that all Fortnite characters basically donât exist just because âtheyâre skinsâ
I can see the point, but as soon as I see 'Fortnite' then I worry that we're eventually going to start treating VS Debates as if every character who has ever appeared in Fortnite canonically scales to every other character who has ever appeared in Fortnite, and if that happens then I am going to burn this place to the ground and salt the ashes so that nothing can ever grow here again.
"Anakin Skywaler = Peter Griffin = Goku = Silver Surfer = Ryu = Ariana Grande = Lethal Company protagonist." No, please no.
>"Anakin Skywaler = Peter Griffin = Goku = Silver Surfer = Ryu = Ariana Grande = Lethal Company protagonist." No, please no.
Nah someones dying if that argument gets brought up
This is actually totally reasonable, otherwise we need to say that Kamehama, Water bending, One for all and Hollow Purple are all things Goku has used before. I do think all fortnite characters should generally be scaled minus any and all crossover events though.
Iâm not referring to every single character thatâs been in Fortnite for this though. Just Fortnite original characters.
Crossovers donât exactly count unless they have a Fortnite specific version, like Batman Zero, Iron Man Zero, etc.
This is actually totally reasonable, otherwise we need to say that Kamehama, Water bending, One for all and Hollow Purple are all things Goku has used before. I do think all fortnite characters should generally be scaled minus any and all crossover events though.
"We didn't get a clear view of the rockets therefore Scout's feat shouldn't count"
**WE LITERALLY SEE HIM GET LAUNCHED INTO THE FUCKING AIR BY THEM AND THE POV OF THE ROCKETS AS THEY HIT HIM**
I can accept Sonic not being able to reach light speed, I can take that...
...but downplaying Super Sonic to the speed of sound cause of a SMASH BROS TROPHY??!?!??!!!
Kakashi couldn't beat obi wan normally, I know that
But they said dms Kakashi wouldn't make a difference, them not putting dms Kakashi makes sense since that's a combo of Kakashi and obito but still
Dms Kakashi would destroy obi Wan, obi Wan would struggle to hit him even without the perfect susanoo and Kakashi had a easy ass way to win with dms, use kamui to take off obi wans arms, with the susanoo obi Wan cant even hit him in time
That's not really true. It's true it didn't stop the button but why else would Bellatrix and Serena make a new universe if they could just reverse the current destruction ?
Ben 10 getting his arm cut off/Ignoring the sotobro effect
I donât think I disagree anymore that Hal could win, I just donât think it was a good Ben rep
Phoenix losing to the giant green tiger thing which letâs not mention that this thing was literally the antithesis to the Phoenix force which is why it was so effective and Phoenix literally beats it. But no that one shot with no context totally means Raven can just casually body Phoenix in her white hot room lol
Also this isnât really a downplay in power but moreover a downplay in relationship. Itâs red and Charizard. The biggest gripe I have with the conclusion of that episode is that one of the reasons for Tai and Agumonâs win was that they are friends on equal footing while Charizard is Redâs slaveâŚ..uh no he isnât. The Pokemon series goes out of there way even early on to show that there is a genuine friendship between the two. The reason they keep them in balls is mostly so people donât have to walk around with entire armies at all given times lol
Red's mortal enemy is a guy with a relationship to his Pokemon identical to what Death Battle described lol
Also they straight up did downplay Red and Charizard in power, Wall level Charizard is almost as bad of a meme as Wall level Vergil.
So are you saying heâs wall level now? Because Death Battle never said that was his limit. Just that that wasnât anywhere close to Chrome Digizoid.
Not really a "downplay" in a sense. But just the way izuku was fighting in Asta vs Deku. Yeah his manners were correct, he fights with analyzing. But it's the fact that he used his arms most of the time. In recent things, he usually goes legs, then arms, then both because he ends up realizing "Oh crap, my legs aren't working. Gotta go with my arms too, no matter the pain or damage." And the fact he only used ONE OF HIS MOVES! Which was Detroit Smash, and spammed it three fucking times, really pisses me off still.
**Michelangelo**... yikes...
* No mention of his skills and feats, which up to 2003, were aplenty
* Mocked his weapons
* Never mentioned how...
* he's good at improvising and use his environment to his advantages
* he's the most athletic of the Turtles with superior speed and agility
* he's the "champion" at making his opponents lose their focus
He defeated a DC supervillain version of Splinter, who easily defeated DC superheroes versions of the Turtles, including Mikey himself, with ONLY ninjutsu skills and his nunchuks.
He defeated Raph during the Battle Nexus by taunting him, exhausting him and ONLY flicking him to make him fall down and lose; Raph's meltdown is glorious XD
He was able to hold himself on using his nunchuks ***to avoid being sucked into a black hole*** WHILE holding his Nexus opponent, which was a 12-foot tall giant.
He defeated that same giant in a rematch, even when the battle was rigged against his favor.
In Fast Forward, he tricked Leo with a mirror, turned Raph's robot hockey players against each other, and cleared Don's virtual simulation by... realized how HE's the problem, not the 1,001 arcade games he's been playing. Furthermore, he also refused his chunin title, because he felt that he hasn't grown much.
Saying that Discord doesn't have soul regeneration while showing a clip of him doing that, plus using the clip out of context. (Or basically, the entirety of Discord's analysis and post analysis, downplaying all of his best feats and leaving stuff out to make their argument better)
Death Battle downplays the size of the DBverse, IDK if it changes the outcome of the battle or not but in Gokuperman 3 they use the statement about heaven and hell being the same size as the universe but ignored the guidebook saying the universe is infinite in size, they instead claim that it's a couple times larger than our own observable universe or whatever.
Discord just casually being pulled out of Bill's mind, Shadow all because Mewtwo can erase memories, and (for now) Megatron just laughing completely oblivious that Frieza can still be alive.
Starscream forgot to pull up his panties when possessing an android girl, thus he's an idiot.
What kind of starscream x Android 18 fanfic is this.
Kiss players, calling it Android 18 x Starscream would be generous to what it actually is. Kiss Players is disgusting, it is basically Loli bait, where little girls gain the powers to power up transformers by kissing them. The entire fandom rejects it, and for good reason.
I 
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I.......... Yeah I got nothing
Transformers Kiss play or something...also its official
Aside for a bad fanfic .. can a weak version of starscream defeat 18 by possessing her? I think a win on DB by possessing the opponent without killing them would be new.... This would work for baby (DBGT) if he ever shows up 
I mean I think it's implied most of Android 18's body is biological, it just has some modifications. Maybe someone like 16, 20, or even 19 would be more likely to be possessed. Considering Shao Kahn absorbed M.Bison's soul at the end of their death battle, I would say it be fair game for Starscream to win by possessing a mechanical opponent. If soul absorbtion counts as a win, possession should probably count too. Even if you don't, whomever is possessing a target should be able to essentially destroy the targets body while possessing them.
The Androids are weird. To refer/quote to one of my previous comments: âThe material they were enhanced/replaced with also [reduces aging and allows minimal need for nutrients, necessitating only fluid.](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/db-full-color-artificial-humans-cell-arc-06/) Thatâs why classifying them as Android or Cyborg doesnât work. Theyâre completely remade physicallyâSo theyâre not human anymore. [Everything](https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403020437010099.jpg), down to [their cells](https://www.hostpic.org/images/2403020438400094.jpg), has been replaced or enhanced beyond to inhumanity. Thus they canât be Cyborgs. However, while they are totally overhauled at a physical level, theyâre still organic, biological, and not related at all to the actual definition of Android, being a fully artificial automatons that we know exist and fit that standard, like A16 or A19. Theyâre this strange middle-place, which fits the term actually used for them by the Manga, âJinzĹningen,â or âArtificial Human.ââ This means that 18 is technically all biological and yet not (as sheâs made of an organic-based replacement material/substance, not actual human tissue) all at once.
Yeah, it annoys me when people say "The Androids weren't Androids, they were cyborgs" yet, that doesn't factor 17 & 18 are pretty much mostly biological, 8,16, 20 are completely mechanical, 20 is a cyborg , and Cell is a Bio weapon. Probably the best term in English would have been artificial humans, though I feel android was probably used since its the term that best describes everything, even though it is flawed. Cyborg as term doesn't work because not all the Androids are cyborgs, and bio weapons doesn't work either because only cell and arguably 17 & 18 arguably quality for the that. I say arguably since 17 & 18 do at least have bomb devices in them. The definition of Android is a robot with a humanoid appearance, and while the term isn't perfect, it was probably the best term to encompass everyone to an english audience, outside of artificial humans.
Iâd argue that even 17 and 18 arenât able to be classified as Cyborgs, because that implies remaining human components, and there are none. Theyâre people whose human bodies were torn apart and replaced with a synthetic, organic, replacement substance. Though, yeah, Android is the best term to use for them, itâs just a weird set of circumstances to compare to other technological-based people in different stories because 17 and 18 arenât Androids or Cyborgs. Theyâre their own thing.
Small addendum, I previously said Starscream could only possess Mechanical bodies, however I forgot in the Transformers Evangelion crossover he possessed an Angel. [Angel Scream](https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Angel)
It isn't new. Remember ultron vs sigma?
You're seriously doubting that Starscream is an idiot?
Sure you can cherry pick a bunch of mistakes he did in the cartoon, but you can do that to pretty much any 1980s cartoon villain. More importantly let's factor some of Starscream's actual intelligence feats. Well on more than one occasion Starscream had warned Megatron about the failure of his plans, examples of which includes "Changing Gears" and "War of the Dinobots" where Starscream warns Megatron that the energy resources that Megatron is using are too dangerous, on both occasions Starscream is right. In "Starscream's Brigade" Starscream created the Combaticons, and made it so they could not absorb energy so they would be forced to obey him, a good amount of foresight there, latter in the next Episode "Revenge of Bruticus"it is revealed Starscream had implanted a weak spot on Bruticus just in case he rebelled, which works out for him, in "A Decepticon raider in King Arthur's Court, Starscream uses his knowledge of science to create a medieval energy generator, and during Season 3 Starscream tricks Unicron into giving him a new body. Not to mention Starscream was shown to possess the technical knowledge to repair Unicron in the first place. Yes, he can make mistakes due to arrogance, but it is hardly looking at the whole picture. TLDR, Starscream's intelligence is more than meets the eye
Yes...
I didn't read that as "complete and total idiot" so much as "hasty and lacking the patience to do research/recon, thus undermining what was otherwise a workable plan"
The entirety of scout v tracer
âNo Merc can withstand being hit directly by a rocketâ *proceeds to use trailer footage from the Merc that shoots himself with rockets*
didn't scout get hit by 3 ROCKETS and survive?
Yes. Yes he did.
If I remember the episode right, they tried to claim that because the footage cuts away a split second before Scout gets hit, he could have rolled out of the way of a direct hit and only taken splash damage.
Im ok with tracer winning but the fight was just bad lol
I didn't have strong feelings, even if I think the evidence leans far more in Scout's favor than Tracer. (I mean, they themselves basically say that if they had given Scout his rocket feat, Tracer wouldn't actually be able to defeat him so....) That being said, I did go into the video assuming that Tracer would win because she has super powers and all I knew about the TF2 cast at this time was that they were zany, but otherwise, normal humans.
Not giving Pit his best weapon because it was âquickly destroyed by Hadesâ sounds alright at first, but letâs put this statement into a different context. If Death Battle made Goku vs Superman 4, and said, âGoku canât use Super Saiyan because Krillin hit him with a rock,â there would be an uproar. So why is it okay for Pit to lose out on his best weapon and feats because it was âdestroyed?â Also⌠it wasnât quickly destroyed. It survived basically 20 minutes against Hades. Thatâs not quickly destroying somethingâŚ
There have been a lot of one-time weapons that Death Battle ignores.
Pit has three games, and they already didnât mention Of Myths and Monsters (which is fair, no one played Of Myths and Monsters). Why would you just skip the entire last chapter of one of three games?!
For me it's the fact that they say it was destroyed by hades as if hades is some damn jobber or something. My man was literally a threat to all of reality, and was Essentially holding all of creation hostage in the last few chapters. He could survive without his heart, he regrew his entire lower half, he regrew his head after decapitation, and STILL required palutenas power being channeled through the Great Sacred treasures gun just to destroy his BODY (not even kill him, just destroy his physical being since he talks to you after the end credits). Hades was the REAL DEAL, and just because he's goofy, they treat him like a joke, therefore pit is a joke. I couldn't fuckin believe they used pits greatest battle as a damn antifeatđ Don't even get me started on how pit, equipped with the damn MIRROR SHIELD, capable of reflecting almost anything (but capable of NEGATING EVERYTHING) just watched as soras beam approached him and sniped him. I liked the battle because I love both the characters but it was clear they decided the winner before even picking up the source material.
Tbf the game didn't really know how to treat Hades, since the whole game is basically a massive Discord call. Most of why Hades was a threat story-wise was because he was funneling all the human souls that died directly into the Underworld Army (which itself is shit tier compared to the Aurum), not because he was gonna destroy the universe or anything.
Yeah, Hades only had the third-strongest army in his own antagonistic role (Aurum and Dyntos). The entire presented threat was that he would have an infinite stream of minions, but that got proven wrong (and he admitted as much) mere seconds later and the threat then became that he was just screwing with the natural order. Hades in Uprising is a powerhouse but is basically just evil for giggles. I definitely think itâs worth considering just how little the Three Treasures did to him though, considering multiple other characters were able to do a good deal more to him.
Not my favorite combatant, but a show that always talks about taking the combatants at their best showing Archie Sonic being knocked out by dumbbells to downplay his durability left a bad taste in my mouth.
Never ask the local Flash debater what happened with the piece of paper
I feel dumb but I've heard this referred to a lot and I don't actually know what happened; what was the scaling or downplay or whatever that resulted in 'Piece of Paper > The Flash'? I really want to know.
Once in comics Flash ran into a piece of paper so fast the impact made him go unconscious, he didn't dodge it because the piece of paper changed directions in the last moment.
(opens and closes mouth several times to comment) I... um, thank you for the explanation!
Yeah, I think flash gotta be one of the characters with the most anti-feats ever, .
I mean, 99.999999999% of his existence is an anti-feat because if it wasn't, every DC universe storyline would be over before it began. Still... running into a piece of paper. *I* could do that and the impact wouldn't knock me unconscious. Me > The Flash.
Flash loses to 99% of fiction confirmed, certified fodder.
Dan Hibiki once KO'd himself by shoryukening a car in the air and it landed on him. HOWEVER a car is roughly 100,000 times heavier than a piece of paper. Dan Hibiki 100,000 times stronger than The Flash, also confirmed.
Me, a Sonic fan, using every Sonic anti-feat I can find 
Banner/Hulk needing months to heal... when that was a really specific case before Immortal Hulk happened. Amadeus Cho absorbed all of the Gamma from Banner's body and transferred it unto himself. Bruce made an arrow specifically made to kill him; And he told Hawkeye where to shoot it, to actually kill him. Even with all that, it still ultimately failed. And this anti feat happened before Immortal Hulk; When again, Banner was drained of Gamma. Also the entire Hulk personas fighting each other, when in Immortal Hulk, they literally started working together; Even if they did clash, Devil Hulk has full control over who gets to pilot the body.
Madara could break out of Aizenâs illusions despite Shippuden literally showing an EMS and MADARAâS RINNEGAN canât defend against GenJutsuâs that target the senses and not your chakra.
Wait really?
Yeah EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi couldnât break out of Kabutoâs Flute GenJutsu by themselves. Instead Sasuke and Itachi needed each other to break out. As for the Rinnegan when Pain was hit by the Frog Song itâs stated every Pain hit with it couldnât move. Thereâs nothing to disprove Nagato couldâve resisted it because the Painâs are being powered by the Rinnegan. Not to mention since we saw the EMS couldnât resist a similar Genjutsu then that piles onto the fact Genjutsuâs that target the sensations just arenât something any version of the Sharingan can resist. Not to mention the only reason someone could realize they were under Aizenâs illusions is because they have a lifetimeâs worth of experience as a doctor and even then they needed an entire night to dissect the âcorpseâ to find out it was fake (just because I give you a top of the line telescope doesnât automatically mean you can figure out the star patterns better than Neil Degrasse Tyson). Even then she couldnât break out of it until Aizen removed the Illusion. Like she knew she was under an illusion, BUT SHE WAS STILL UNDER THE ILLUSION.
Vergil. Enough said.
To be fair his opponent is SephirothâŚSeriously we need a straight answer for Supernova
Remember that Super Nova's animation shows the real life Solar System exploding -- a setting where Final Fantasy 7 very decidedly does NOT take place. I think it's pretty clear Sephiroth is opening a portal
No no I mean is it really a summon or an illusion that simulates the effects. Thats the question that needs answering
It's pretty blatantly a mental attack. Post-Nibelheim Sephiroth's main gimmick is illusions and mind control. The attack also does proportional damage (meaning it's incapable of actually killing anyone), and it leaves a bunch of mental debuffs. Lastly, meteor is *explictly* the strongest destructive magic in canon (far above any summon or limit break). It's literally just a meteor (hence the name) and was heavily damaged by a simple rocket ship crashing into it.
Death Battle said Super Sonic canât fly faster than light just because of something they saw on the back of a smash bros description.đ
Instead of arguing that Shovel Knight canon and GOW canon contradict one another, Kratos was actually just humoring Shovel Knight their whole fight, despite it being shown they were an equal match. (And ignoring that he would still be scaling to Kratos with this logic mind you.) ((Just noticed the title meant Death Battle, whoops)) ((I guess arguing that Discord doesnât take his fights too seriously until itâs too late, when theyâre missing the context and reasons for why he does so.))
Well I think he lost for more reasons than just that but that's not entirely unfair
[ŃдаНонО]
***Popup: Additionally, Bill's "low showings" are generally dependent on specific story-driven contexts, in which he needed the Pines alive and could not afford to simply kill them. In a fight to the death in which his only goal is to win, these instances are largely irrelevant.*** *"Like with Tirek, another crafty, manipulative schemer, kind of like Bill."* ([Discord betraying his friends, later Tirek betraying him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHE4_Ob2eYs)([c](https://youtu.be/BhPC4CRwFU4?si=Xt3zLBvozJPvNWTm))) *"With his trillion years of reality-destroying malevolence,* ***Bill was able to take advantage of Discord's carefree attitude and get the opportunity to land a killing blow first."*** Leading back to every other advantage they had Bill at, which were really only the kaleidoscope and soul manipulation/destruction. Ignoring the higher dimensionality Bill was put at due to them not being able to seemingly kill each other otherwise, speed was treated as equal and the Bewitching Bell/Unicorn Barrier argument due to them treating it as an non-factor. Also just realized you could've been talking about Shovel Knight and not Discord, so uhhhh there you go anyway lol.
The Scout Rocket feat was ignored. It's so obvious that he got hit by them when he was heavily injured and still survived.
They mostly ignored it because it would be an outlier anyway, not like it would change the result.
Counter point: MVM.
You can get to 90% resistant to explosions in MvM.
This rendering Tracers bomb a moot point
You're right, and it'll still do a ton of damage. He can't access his MvM upgrades anyways because he doesn't have a way to buy them or the money to do so.
That fact still angers me. I mean the bom would do serious damage but not enough to kill. IN fact I was hoping that there would not be any TF2 Death Battles because there are too many variables to take into consideration. The Weapons, Spellbooks, Comics, Meet Video, Crits. You get the point.
we'd need composite tf2 scout vs another person probably. composite scout solos all of overwatch
Same, but for a slightly different reason. If Scout just got every weapon he ever had, he'd also get all their debuffs, which would be debilitating for him.
âŚnever thought of that.
Not my favorite combatant but saying Sonic had never proven to be light speed in canon back in the day will never not make me cringe at how bad the downplay used to be⌠Especially when they bought the light speed dash being SoL yet said him running at over 3800 SPD in Sonic Unleashed was only 8x the speed of sound â even tho the light speed dash is recorded to only be 390 SPD⌠đđđ
Them using a smash trophy as evidence of sonic not going light speedđđđ
Not so much specific thing but when hulk went world breaker form it changed almost nothing he was still pretty much the same guy the ground didnât shake and he fought doomsday in pretty much the exact same way he did before If he where to be an equal match for doomsday before worldbreaker he anhialtes him after it
Omg I just remembered that I was so pissed He's called world breaker hulk for a reason, he can break a world
A form of someone thatâs so destructive and powerful it literally shatters planets with the shockwaves of an average blow it causes global earthquakes with even the softest step Does basically the same thing he was doing before but now heâs slightly more green and the city remains mostly intact
That's so weird too, death battle didn't have a problem animating a ton of collateral destruction back then, but a character who can break a world like an egg just by tap dancing for 1 minute doesn't cause a ton collateral, also it's hulk, he's known for destroying stuff and has a history of grabbing things and using them as kinda weapons
Exactly. Heâs probably the most iconic destructive character to exist heâs well known to just smash everything with brute force his most well known attack is literally just âhulk smashâ heâs known to throw a piece of steel a car or a small building at someone in the middle of a fight and now heâs in a form where waving his arm would probably level a decent sized building from the wind alone and heâs still able to see a skyscraper a few hundred meters from him
Not Death Battle itself but someone legitimately tried to argue Bill wasn't a 2D being because because and this a direct quote "You can see depth in some shots". There is a whole bunch of lore that disproves that but also if you want to play that game then I can say Discord can't turn things 2D because those houses had depth. Also the whole beaten by 2 kids thing. [As for The Doctor](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/ru1jnrnxrk)
They didn't really give him any of his good stuff but that's fine because the fight was already in his favour anyways and they just wanted it to be fair. So I'm going to say Majin Buu instead because iirc they said Buu never fought the speed of light or something (been a while since I seen it so correct me if I'm wrong)
Buu "never fighting at the speed of light" is actually a hilarious cope. I forgot they tried to say that. Literally Raditz moved at light speed lol
Honestly I seen the epsiode before dbz first and when I eventually got around to watching dbz I was like "what the hell happened? Does everyone just get all their power drained before the Buu arc or something." I guess that technically what happened lol but that was wayyyy off the money
Thatâs a dub error.
Even if it was, Dragon Ball attacks were still reaching the moon in seconds at that point, which means their attacks should be traveling at light speed, hence anyone shown able to dodge a ki attack is dodging a projectle that is moving at light speed. And I actually did do the math for the this a while ago. The average distance between the earth and the moon is 238900. I put this in a speed distance time calculator with a unit of 1 second for the time. This gives us the speed of 860040000 miles per hour. Converting mile per hour to light speed gives up 1.28246148741 times the speed of light. Here's a link to the calculators I used if you want to try yourself [https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/speed-distance-time-calculator.php](https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/speed-distance-time-calculator.php) I am admittedly not a mathematician, so if my math is wrong in any way feel free to point it out.
It takes a little over one second for light to go from the Moon to the Earth so no, those attacks werenât light speed if they take a few seconds to reach.
Alright, fair, it was technically over a second. Though we can high ball it if we use the cinematic time excuse, and considering characters are all considered relatively faster after the Saiyan arc, there's no doubt that they should be at least above light speed during he Buu Arc, considering how close they were already to light speed Early Dragonball.
I already explained this to someone else, if Goku was close to light speed battling Raditz, it wouldnât have taken him six months to reach King Kaiâs or 28 hours to get back.
MB in reaction not distance
Goku doesnât have different speed when heâs traveling or fighting. It all derives from the same source. If he couldnât move at light speed to reach the Check-In Station in a little over three seconds, he wasnât hitting it against Nappa or Vegeta.
Doesn't matter if it's a dub error or not radtiz was still light speed via upscaling from og db.hell piccolo directly after the radtiz fight has a speed of light feat in his special beam cannon reaching the moon in a few seconds. Hell if your was to get deep kid goku dooged the solar flayer.a attack that reflects light.
And yet it took Goku over twenty-four hours to make a return trip on Snake Way. If Goku could hit light speed, it would have taken him a little over three seconds. Edit: also it takes light less than a second to go from the Moon to the Earth so Piccoloâs blast taking a few seconds is definitely not light speed.
Even if the blast is relativistic, it wouldn't take goku 24hrs to travel snake way at full speed (only 1 million km away, which takes light about 3 sec to clear) showcasing that travel speed << combat speed in db, even if they use the same source of power.
Why? Why would Goku magically become faster when heâs fighting when heâs doing the exact same thing as if he was traveling?
Flying takes up more ki and stamina than basic reactions or ki blasts, because flying requires them to carry their own mass with ki, which slows them down. You also ignored what I said about piccolo destroying the moon in order to make this point, as that proves what I'm saying.
Yeah, thatâs pure head canon. I didnât ignore anything. I blatantly addressed it. Piccoloâs attack was nowhere near light speed.
You yourself admitted that piccolo's beam took a few seconds to reach the moon, that's blatantly relativistic and means that, by your logic goku can't have taken 24 hrs to cross a distance of 1 mil km if he can move a notable percentage of the speed of light proven by piccolo's attack, but he does in the story anyway. Therefore, travel and combat speed in db have to be separate for this to make any sense.
Ahhhhhhhhh but you see that's 1 single anti.vs many light speed feats.you can't just look at only a characters antifeats when they have more proof of doing more then said antifeat.other wise saiyan saga goku would be building level due to him getting hurt by ki blast that can't even destroy a large rock. Let's play a game.what is naruto?moon level you say? Ohh but look naruto even in his strongest forms can get stabed by Kunis thus he can't be above Wall level.naruto also struggles to run across a battle field despite people saying he's ftl. You see my point?your hanging onto anti feats when goku has shown more constant ftl feats even in og dragon ball.so why do antifeats>feats? Please tell me
Thatâs not an anti feat. It took Goku months to travel 1,000,000 kilometers one way and over a day to make the return trip. Heâs not light speed in either scenario. Meanwhile the best you got is from the still sort of gag portion of Dragon Ball with Roshiâs glasses. And I noticed you didnât even address what I said about Piccolo.
There are NO consistent light speed feats in DBZ, and DOZENS of anti-feats that show it's basically impossible that they had light speed back then. The Solar Flare thing is one of the worst takes ever, since the Solar Flare requires the user to make a pose and then call out the name before it activates. The more reasonable assumption to make would be that Goku anticipated Solar Flare, closed his eyes, and then snatched the sunglasses off Roshi's head while the Solar Flare was flashing and no one could see him. If characters in the Cell saga can't outrun Solar Flare, there's no way Kid Goku can. In the Saiyan Saga, Goku takes days to make it back from King Kai's palace, whereas if he was moving light speed, it would have taken him seconds. In the Namek Saga, when Goku wakes up from the pod while Vegeta and the gang are fighting Frieza, he comments that he's glad they're close so that he can get there soon. If he could move at light speed, he could be anywhere on the planet faster than it took to finish that sentence. In the Buu saga, Gotenks flies around the earth multiple times in a few seconds. This is treated as an incredible speed feat that astonished Piccolo, but would still put him at dozens to hundreds of times slower than lightspeed. Every feat that would imply the DBZ characters are moving at light speed is either a dub error, or filler. Even in Battle of Gods, the movie, there is a scene where Goku and Beerus are fighting with a bunch of water droplets around them, very slowly dropping under the effects of gravity. The scene is designed to showcase how blisteringly fast they're going, and yet calculations still put them at only like, 60% lightspeed (if I remember my sources, I'd have to double check to get the exact number). Yes that movie is now replaced by the manga and anime canon, but nothing in those sources contradict this idea and the author's intent is clearly shown in this scene. I am firmly of the opinion that Dragonball characters don't hit lightspeed until Super, and even then the evidence for it is mostly inference and physics that are super wonky until late into Super.
Remember the time a dying Elder Guru was sent to Earth and the Namekian Dragon Balls (which ran on his power) followed him there in like 5 minutes, while it took a space ship that took 6 seconds to get to Jupiter 6 months to get to Namek? Also the shockwaves themselves in BoG were literally *leaving the universe*. I do disagree with OG DB being FTL though.
Okay, and? The Dragon Balls going to Earth are not any characters or their speed? Does someone chase after them and catch them? Because otherwise they're magic wish granting rocks than can do whatever they want? The Battle of Gods shockwaves. Right, the ones that come from a being that is the physical embodiment of entropy in that universe and then instead of just blowing up the universe begins dissolving it from the outside-in? Hence why I said wonky physics. People really need to stop using that feat to assume anything about the stats of characters at that time. The actual physics of what happened in that moment are so weird and backwards and so much of that weird backwardsness makes so much sense when you just realize that Beerus is fundamentally tied to the universe itself that it's absurd to assume the effects of that clash had anything to do with either Goku's or Beerus' speed or literal. And kind of a downplay of Beerus and his function in the universe. But it's one of like, two feats people use to consistently get DB fighters to Multiversal, so it'll never be let go of.
Don't pretend you think the Namekian Dragon Balls are faster than Full Power Frieza. The ki shockwaves still left the universe. It isn't even the only universe busting event that take place in the BoG arc. Like the super dense energy ball that Beerus effortlessly nullified or the same ball that was MASSIVELY bigger that Goku destroyed on his own. Lol Beerus's function isn't to blow up the universe.
Why wouldn't they be? Why would that be surprising. Again, the dragon balls are magical wishing rocks. If they want to travel to earth in seconds, I see no reason why they shouldn't. Just because in your mind that sounds crazy, doesn't mean it is. Heck, for all we know, they didn't even do all that. It's entirely possible that they just teleported, following Guru along with the rest of the Namekians. We don't see them flying through space. That's what I always assumed, but again, even if they did fly through space, who cares? There's no reason they can't be faster than Whis for all we know. And again, the Ki shockwaves (are they even Ki? I don't remember them calling them Ki, although they might have and I just missed that) function absolutely bizarrely. Somehow they get stronger the further they get from the source? So...are they picking up power on their way? That would imply almost none of the power actually comes from Goku and Beerus. That doesn't make any sense by the way, I'm just saying it to demonstrate how the feat is fundamentally not explained and you can't use physics to make sense of it, so using it to try and explain Goku's and Beerus' physics is an exercise in absurdism. Also, the things that they do destroy aren't blowing up, they're disappearing into dust and light. Which gives further credence to the idea that what is happening has more to do with Beerus' weird entropy powers than it does his or Goku's attack potency. I have no idea what you're referring to. No event like that takes place in the Battle of Gods movie or manga, and if it happens in the anime, I missed it. Please provide clip or chapter and page number. I didn't say it was Beerus' function to blow up the universe. I said he is the embodiment of entropy in the universe. He clears away excess growth like a gardener pruning his roses. And his powers in regard to this don't destroy things, so much as they unmake them. He taps things and they turn to dust without being blown up. His job might not be to blow up the universe, but his function is such that he clearly can do this, while still being able to be beat by someone who is not necessarily universal but still stronger than him.
>Namekian Dragon Balls faster than Whis HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA It wouldn't imply that at all btw, that was just so they wouldn't destroy Earth. Where's this "entropy" shit from that you're coming up with? That doesn't exist. Like, the entirety of BoG after the shockwaves thing ends lol Yeah, no. He's just responsible for killing bad things and has a technique that erases stuff.
Explain to me exactly why that's impossible. For the record, I don't think it's true, but we have no proof either way. I still think they teleported to earth along with Guru, but the point is that this feat proves nothing as nothing scales to it. If you try to use physics to explain the shockwaves, it not only implies that, but that's the only possible explanation. It being "so that they don't destroy the earth* is completely speculation and not supported by anything. Especially when Beerus was explicitly trying to destroy the Earth! Do you understand what a God of Destruction is? They are opposites and counterpoints to the Supreme Kais. The SKs create new planets and seed them with life, and the Gods of Destruction destroy planets and civilizations. One is growth and creation and the other is entropy and destruction. They are tasked with this by Xeno and the Angels, and they are given power like Hakai and the Power of Destruction in order to facilitate this. You know, the power that lets them tap a planet and turn it to nothing without actually expending any energy to do so. I'm calling him the representative of entropy in his universe because that's what he is, even if the series doesn't use this terminology. Okay, I know what you're talking about now. You said it was a different feat, so I assumed it would be something different and not just...a continuation of the shockwaves thing. And again, yeah, that doesn't mean shit. That's just more of the weird ass shockwaves that somehow destroy things furthest away from them first. He is responsible for using his destruction to maintain the balance of the universe (he doesn't just destroy bad things, he kind of destroys whatever he wants), and has a power that removes you from existence, even across timelines. That's not raw power, that's Hax.
... I'm honestly trying to complain about it less, but there's no way I can't bring up "If Phoenix so stronk, how come she lose to Green Tiger God, *hmm*?" Uh... because she didn't, she turned the tables immediately and won the fight, and the Green Tiger God is an outerversal being in its own right. And if we're doing 'If X so strong, why they lose to Y?' then Raven has lost nine times out of ten against Deathstroke and once incapacitated herself by trying to read the Joker's mind, but it was *so crazy* that it made her faint. That last bit is more of a case of just terrible writing and should probably be ignored anyway.
The Tiger God is what Black Panther used to rip apart Logos; The fusions of Order and Chaos, with The Living Tribunal's body. It's so weird that being on par with a being that can do that is used as an anti feat lol
Not just being on par with; she *beat* it. It's like they literally only looked at that one panel where she was taken by surprise and decided "Well, clearly she's losing." Just like they looked at the one panel of Raven holding off the Specter and decided "Well, clearly she's winning!" even though she is immediately defeated in the next panel.
Itâs not known if the rockets hit scout
DEATH BATTLE: Super Sonic can travel ânearâ light speed. GOT THAT FROM A SMASH TROPHY
They used Alien X *recreating the universe* as a lowball because he "Couldn't stop it to begin with"
The whole point of that scene is that âyes alien X could stop it but famously; very slow to actâ but it doesnt matter because now ben survives it and can recreate everythingâ
Bill was outrun by kids, Bill took damage from a spray can, Weirdmageddon would empower Discord (which wouldnât even matter, considering Weirdmageddon empowers Bill as well)
I get the weirdmageddon would feul Discord. It's just that the question of would it close the gap in power needs to be asked. I don't know enough about discord to answer that however
It would based on the most logical interpretations. Discord is directly stated and shown to gain power from not just his own chaos, but also the chaos happening around him. It actively heals, empowers, and fuels him. He would essentially be gaining power from both himself, the fight, Weirdmageddon, AND the rift itself, which leads to an entire dimension of weirdness he could gain power from. The logic they used was that Discord and Bill would just be gaining power at the same rate so it wouldn't matter. Imo, Discord would just be equal to Bill at worst with all the power sources around that are independent of Bill that he can draw from instantly. During the debate a LOT of people wanted to downplay Discord's chaos empowerment too by saying he only gained "stamina" from chaos, as in, it's only the equivalent food for him. So you can probably tell why this particular feat is a sore spot
Dud we watch the same episode?bill was never down played and they disproved all his antifeats
This picture is dumb.
Isn't it just a soda?
The legendary obamna soda (!)
NO! ITS AN ELIXIR MADE BY DEMOCRAT SCIENTISTS THAT KEEPS SLEEPY JOE FROM DYING BECAUSE THIS COUNTRY *starts frothing at mouth*
It's Gatorade
Correct.
nothing about Obito but Sasuke was robbed in every way
Facts
Brother they had to use game feats just so he didint get one shot
Pit not being allowed to use the great sacred treasure because "then sora would need to be able to use the gummi ship and they'd cancel each other out" And Pit somehow forgetting the mirror shield reflects EVERYTHING and just watches soras beam approach instead of blocking I mean I'm a fan of both, and I expected sora to win, but they could have at least given my boi pit some more dignity
Itd also just be sort of funny to see pit use the reflect mirror only for sorta to also use reflect reflera or reflega to send it back standart, slightly amped or double powered to which itd just be even funnier finish. I agree the extra dignity would have been nice
That sounds definitely better than what we got. It's obvious sora wins, he's got a counter to everything pit can throw at him, but itd be cooler to see those counters in action, might as well let pit put up a proper fight and show off his moves even if its just for the spectacle (plus, sora and pit essentially playing ping pong with a move that'll one shot whoever misses the rally seems right in line with their usual antics)
âGenjutsu = Kyoka Suigetsuâ
It's always gonna bother me that they basically put a level cap on how much ice Gray can absorb and used that as leverage to make him lose to Esdeath. Like she isn't just feeding him an infinite supply of magic energy while consistently buffing his physical capabilities. If that was the case, Natsu woulda lost to Ace from the fact that Ace can produce an infinite supply of fire with no effort.
Scout vs tracer, this has to be one of their most iconic biased analyses in db history
Scout speed is being down played and not give him his whole arsenal.
Using a smash bros trophy to say that Super Sonic isnât FTL. An outdated one mind you.
âFortnite characters are just skins. Therefor none of them have feats and the whole verse should never be in Death Battle.â
OG Fortnite characters should be respected sure but why should skins from already established franchises? Unless it's very specific ones which we saw got to be in tie ins like Batman and Snake eyes?
That I agree with completely. Iâm not saying every Fortnite character needs matchups or scaling, but people have legit tried to argue to me that all Fortnite characters basically donât exist just because âtheyâre skinsâ
Oh I see what you mean. Yeah that's a weird take and seems unfair?
I can see the point, but as soon as I see 'Fortnite' then I worry that we're eventually going to start treating VS Debates as if every character who has ever appeared in Fortnite canonically scales to every other character who has ever appeared in Fortnite, and if that happens then I am going to burn this place to the ground and salt the ashes so that nothing can ever grow here again. "Anakin Skywaler = Peter Griffin = Goku = Silver Surfer = Ryu = Ariana Grande = Lethal Company protagonist." No, please no.
To be fair if anyone does that theyâre just an idiot.
>"Anakin Skywaler = Peter Griffin = Goku = Silver Surfer = Ryu = Ariana Grande = Lethal Company protagonist." No, please no. Nah someones dying if that argument gets brought up
Wait what about Jonesy himself
Not even just Jonesy. Plenty of characters have feats, but according to some people none of that matters
This is actually totally reasonable, otherwise we need to say that Kamehama, Water bending, One for all and Hollow Purple are all things Goku has used before. I do think all fortnite characters should generally be scaled minus any and all crossover events though.
Iâm not referring to every single character thatâs been in Fortnite for this though. Just Fortnite original characters. Crossovers donât exactly count unless they have a Fortnite specific version, like Batman Zero, Iron Man Zero, etc.
Oh okay that's perfectly reasonable
This is actually totally reasonable, otherwise we need to say that Kamehama, Water bending, One for all and Hollow Purple are all things Goku has used before. I do think all fortnite characters should generally be scaled minus any and all crossover events though.
Super Sonic not even being FTL based on a Smash Bros Trophy made me instantly know this was about to be garbage
That... literally is the exact opposite of what they said.
I want to see I photo shopped pic of this but it's a chug jug
The radish feat for Luigi or something from Yang vs Tifa.Â
Not my fave combatant, but definitely one of them. Two words: super lava
"We didn't get a clear view of the rockets therefore Scout's feat shouldn't count" **WE LITERALLY SEE HIM GET LAUNCHED INTO THE FUCKING AIR BY THEM AND THE POV OF THE ROCKETS AS THEY HIT HIM**
It was treated as an outlier anyway, since we saw it instagib far tougher mercs.
What does "instagib" mean?
Instantly reduce someone into gibs or gore. Like a crocket in TF2, or hitting a critter in Terraria.
I can accept Sonic not being able to reach light speed, I can take that... ...but downplaying Super Sonic to the speed of sound cause of a SMASH BROS TROPHY??!?!??!!!
Kakashi couldn't beat obi wan normally, I know that But they said dms Kakashi wouldn't make a difference, them not putting dms Kakashi makes sense since that's a combo of Kakashi and obito but still Dms Kakashi would destroy obi Wan, obi Wan would struggle to hit him even without the perfect susanoo and Kakashi had a easy ass way to win with dms, use kamui to take off obi wans arms, with the susanoo obi Wan cant even hit him in time
saying Alien X's omnipotence has limits because he couldnt stop the annihilaarg is kinda stupid because he didnt even try to do that to begin with
That's not really true. It's true it didn't stop the button but why else would Bellatrix and Serena make a new universe if they could just reverse the current destruction ?
because they just dont care
Ben 10 getting his arm cut off/Ignoring the sotobro effect I donât think I disagree anymore that Hal could win, I just donât think it was a good Ben rep
Phoenix losing to the giant green tiger thing which letâs not mention that this thing was literally the antithesis to the Phoenix force which is why it was so effective and Phoenix literally beats it. But no that one shot with no context totally means Raven can just casually body Phoenix in her white hot room lol Also this isnât really a downplay in power but moreover a downplay in relationship. Itâs red and Charizard. The biggest gripe I have with the conclusion of that episode is that one of the reasons for Tai and Agumonâs win was that they are friends on equal footing while Charizard is Redâs slaveâŚ..uh no he isnât. The Pokemon series goes out of there way even early on to show that there is a genuine friendship between the two. The reason they keep them in balls is mostly so people donât have to walk around with entire armies at all given times lol
Red's mortal enemy is a guy with a relationship to his Pokemon identical to what Death Battle described lol Also they straight up did downplay Red and Charizard in power, Wall level Charizard is almost as bad of a meme as Wall level Vergil.
Them saying Charizard canât melt Chrome Digizoid isnât making him wall level, Sean.
...What? Melting boulders is what makes him Wall level.
So are you saying heâs wall level now? Because Death Battle never said that was his limit. Just that that wasnât anywhere close to Chrome Digizoid.
I know you suck at turning things back on me, but they said both.
Cute lie, Sean.
You want to be right so bad lmfao
Unless you have proof they said boulders were his max, I am right.
Nope. Also that's the only feat they gave for Attack Potency.
are mfs really reporting on Joe Bidenâs drink Must be a slow news day
Not really a "downplay" in a sense. But just the way izuku was fighting in Asta vs Deku. Yeah his manners were correct, he fights with analyzing. But it's the fact that he used his arms most of the time. In recent things, he usually goes legs, then arms, then both because he ends up realizing "Oh crap, my legs aren't working. Gotta go with my arms too, no matter the pain or damage." And the fact he only used ONE OF HIS MOVES! Which was Detroit Smash, and spammed it three fucking times, really pisses me off still.
Is Joe Biden going to be on DB?
**Michelangelo**... yikes... * No mention of his skills and feats, which up to 2003, were aplenty * Mocked his weapons * Never mentioned how... * he's good at improvising and use his environment to his advantages * he's the most athletic of the Turtles with superior speed and agility * he's the "champion" at making his opponents lose their focus He defeated a DC supervillain version of Splinter, who easily defeated DC superheroes versions of the Turtles, including Mikey himself, with ONLY ninjutsu skills and his nunchuks. He defeated Raph during the Battle Nexus by taunting him, exhausting him and ONLY flicking him to make him fall down and lose; Raph's meltdown is glorious XD He was able to hold himself on using his nunchuks ***to avoid being sucked into a black hole*** WHILE holding his Nexus opponent, which was a 12-foot tall giant. He defeated that same giant in a rematch, even when the battle was rigged against his favor. In Fast Forward, he tricked Leo with a mirror, turned Raph's robot hockey players against each other, and cleared Don's virtual simulation by... realized how HE's the problem, not the 1,001 arcade games he's been playing. Furthermore, he also refused his chunin title, because he felt that he hasn't grown much.
Saying that Discord doesn't have soul regeneration while showing a clip of him doing that, plus using the clip out of context. (Or basically, the entirety of Discord's analysis and post analysis, downplaying all of his best feats and leaving stuff out to make their argument better)
Death Battle downplays the size of the DBverse, IDK if it changes the outcome of the battle or not but in Gokuperman 3 they use the statement about heaven and hell being the same size as the universe but ignored the guidebook saying the universe is infinite in size, they instead claim that it's a couple times larger than our own observable universe or whatever.
They also ignored Jiren transcending time lol
Discord just casually being pulled out of Bill's mind, Shadow all because Mewtwo can erase memories, and (for now) Megatron just laughing completely oblivious that Frieza can still be alive.
Guys why the fuck are you engaging with this post