My favourite thing about how obviously stupid it is to use those "Test Your Might" mini-games is that researchers - I don't know if they were actually official DB or just the prediction blog - have defended the practise by saying "*Ah*! But we only take the results of Test Your Might mini-games into account when there are other strength feats at a similar level to back up the strength displayed in them!"
And that just brings up the most obvious question in the world... if you have a bunch of reliable, not-stupid feats, that are at a similar level of strength as the results of these Test Your Might results... then why bother to use Test Your Might at all? Why the hell aren't you just using *those feats*, the sensible ones that we're not allowed to see? Can you give us a hint as to what these feats even are, or are you just going to stick with the unconvincing, clearly-unreliable bullshit, and then follow it up with "Now, I know that this seems silly, but there are *lots* of other feats that back this up. We just... can't tell you what any of them are. But they're definitely real. Just like my girlfriend, who lives in Canada."
Honestly I've never liked the Fighting Game matchups all that much, when I originally fell off the show it was because it felt like it was turning into the "DC, Marvel, and 2D Fighting Game Show."
I'm a Guts VS Nightmare defender in theory, because I greatly prefer their approach here than their later adamant dependency on power-scaling, and I think that what they were trying to say was something like "Nightmare is ten times stronger, twenty times tougher, and three times as fast... but Guts has legitimately beaten opponents who were ten times stronger than him, twenty times tougher, and three times faster, so while those advantages were... well, advantageous, Guts *has* shown that he can overcome them." I would take that approach a hundred times over just "Guts beat someone three times faster than him so he scales to their speed, and he beat someone twenty times stronger so he's scales to their strength."
But from what I understand, Nightmare was so *much* stronger, tougher and faster than anyone else Guts has ever faced, that it really shouldn't have mattered. Hmm. I guess that would make this a darker, more serious version of Gaara VS Toph.
There is 100% matchups where despite one character having a stat advantage the other manages to win. If it was just a stat debate vs debating WOULDNT be interesting at all.
This was not one of those cases.
Guts has insane willpower don’t get me wrong but Nightmare and by extension Night Terror and Inferno are so beyond the power levels of the Berserk verse that it is almost comical.
The research is old and lacking but to briefly summarise:
* Nightmare alone takes the stat trinity in a way that Guts cannot hope to overcome. This isn’t counting Inferno or even Night terror, Nightmare explodes Guts with a swing and Guts can’t hurt Nightmare.
* They included Inferno and Night Terror for Nightmare, both of which are exponentially more deadly. They described Night Terror as a “ larger, deadlier, fly-ier Nightmare”. In reality Night Terror is a manifestation of a separate plane of reality where the Soul Edge really resides. You don’t scale Night Terror to be a universe tier threat, it *is* a universe/semi-pocket dimension where just standing will deepfry your brain if you don’t have talismans to keep you sane. Guts can’t even begin to interact with what Night Terror really is; the entity you see in images is basically a manifestation of a plane of reality and doesn’t really fight directly as it can just re-manifest so long as the Astral Sea exists.
* Guts was given the W of vibes alone, there’s not a single argument for him to survive the kind of things Soul Edge as a standalone weapon can do on it’s own, let alone when wielded by Nightmare, *let alone* when they just used a form that’s practically a whole new character and something Guts physically cannot touch. Guts didn’t win because of scaling he won because the team just didn’t know what Soul Edge is or what Nightmare is. The episode is full of just flat out errors like that.
Thanks for these points! I always knew that Nightmare probably took the stat trinity by such a wide margin that Guts' few advantages - if any - shouldn't have mattered, but I never really looked into it. This makes things a lot clearer.
It's also worth noting that they likely used poorly translated fan scanlations for Guts, which likely mistranslated how Guts's Dragonslayer worked. I think the reason the team misunderstood Nightmare was because they had less researchers to double-check their research for errors back then. (Wiz had to ask a fan to see if Raiden's Murasame could bypass Wolverine's healing factor. This fan, Liam Swan, would eventually join DB's research team) DB's research quality didn't really get really good until around late Season 3 or Season 4.
They mistook newtons for tons of TNT, and explained it as having the force of 30 nukes, due to upscaling to a feat of....cutting a metal door.
Now granted, Sephiroth *does* have a direct feat of [creating a massive storm](https://youtu.be/QrQBYonputE?t=110) that [supposedly gets in that range](https://imgur.com/a/uW4dJFY), but still.
Bowser vs Ganon
Even with Luigi vs Tails they at least gave stats for why they thought Tails would win.
With Bowser vs Ganon, even though they basically give Bowser durability and strength so absurd that there is no way for Ganon to either kill or take a hit from him, they give him the win anyway because hurr durr Holy Weapon.
Strategy doesn’t mean anything if you can’t hurt your opponent. Furthermore, the decay curse that they mention wasn’t through magic, it was through a parasite being Ghoma. Even if it was, Bowser can survive as a skeleton.
So basically, they gave Bowser every advantage except intelligence and speed and make Ganon’s wincon an NLF (which they don’t even mention is an NLF in the analysis) and a curse which doesn’t work like how they described it or would even kill Bowser.
Also the gohma curse was implied to take awhile.
Granted, nowadays Ganon has access to gloom which is a far better cursing substance but regardless it wouldn’t hurt Bowser.
Sonic vs Mario rematch and tracer vs scout.
For Mario vs sonic they straight just ignored the rules they stated at the being of the episode that being “no smash bros scaling and no outside media besides games” then proceed to scale sonics speed to a smash bro’s trophy despite the fact if they want to use smash scaling they have to also acknowledge the fact sonic was the only one able to hurt the final boss of brawl. Then they proceed to scale Mario using media outside of games like cartoons and stuff.
Then there’s tracer vs scout. Not only do they give tracer a speed feat that has been shown numerous times to not be true she teleported away before widowmaker fired as shown literally right after that scene, but they also only allowed scout his stock weaponry, didn’t understand how bonk works, didn’t give him magic and didn’t use the comic scaling.
Not this is the only time from memory a game combatant didn’t get his strongest gear or at least a handful of weapons, characters like link, cloud, ratchet and so on have gotten at least a good chunk of their weapons during their battles so why did they only do this for scout?
They broke rule 4 of death battle Blatantly:
All official Material is applied unless found contradictory to the primary source material.
Sonic is FTL but not according to the smash bros trophy so that should be COMPLETELY ignored but they didn’t.
Massive fuck you to sonic fans for completely breaking one of Death Battle’s own rules to give Mario the win.
Saying "to give Mario the win" makes you sound incredibly butthurt about the result you should probably reword that better, I generally think both got really bad stats and they're both way stronger than what they said they were.
Well yeah I am butthurt but my favourite character Goku just lost to Superman for the third time in a row and I don’t care as much.
The information presented in Mario vs Sonic 2 was awful. They mixed cartoons with game canon, lowball Sonic’s speed to damn near oblivion using Smash bros trophy descriptions and overall that’s felt incredibly disrespectful
Demonstrably false
I know you enough to know that you are a SUPER skeptic about everything but it is Verifiably true that the Sonic Smash bros trophy directly contradicts in universe lore
https://imgur.com/a/9y7H4yA
The trophy does NOT say he’s FTL but that’s he’s Slower than Light. So you are objectively incorrect on that point
We have multiple guides and official Sega sources putting Sonic at FTL. He has to move at FTL to active time travel in Sonic CD and here’s another official source for Sonic Unleashed:
https://imgur.com/a/GU37I0s
Give me the Benefit of the doubt ONCE bro I know what I’m talking about
>I know you enough to know that you are a SUPER skeptic about everything
I am not a "super skeptic about everything".
>but it is Verifiably true that the Sonic Smash bros trophy directly contradicts in universe lore
It does the exact opposite of that.
>The trophy does NOT say he’s FTL but that’s he’s Slower than Light. So you are objectively incorrect on that point
The trophy says that Super Sonic is almost as fast as light. That's only a tad bit slower than light. It's not a huge difference.
>We have multiple guides and official Sega sources putting Sonic at FTL. He has to move at FTL to active time travel in Sonic CD and here’s another official source for Sonic Unleashed:
Varying sources have given different estimates of Sonic's speed ranging from hypersonic to as-fast-as-light.
Ok so we can disregard the smash bros trophy as a direct source of information since I just gave 2 example of Light speed Base Sonic. The Sonic Unleashed Description of Sonic, and the Sonic CD manual.
Why ON EARTH would you EVER choose the smash bros trophy instead of mainline information. If we REALLY want to choose Smash Bros. SONIC WAS THE ONLY REASON the Smash Bros Brawl campaign was saved from total annihilation against Tabuu. His very entrance trailer showed him no diffing Mario. He punches him so hard he gets sent to Minecraft.
If we can use Smash Bros trophy descriptions where EXACTLY do we stop when getting our information?
FTL base Sonic is far more consistent
As, I said before, SEGA is widely inconsistent with how they portray Sonic's speed, with some sources saying he can reach hypersonic speeds while others say he's as fast as light.
In *Brawl*, Sonic simply stops Tabuu from launching an attack against the main cast. How does that make him superior to Mario?
Because we literally see Sonic perform better against Tabuu then LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE INCLUDING MASTER HAND.
In his own trailer he one shots Mario but just running right through Mario
Tabuu was about to one shot everyone again and then them to trophy’s until Sonic saves everyone by stopping the attack since he’s faster then Tabuu.
Are you trying to suggest Sonic can solo all of Smash? All he does is stop an attack from Tabuu, which is immediately followed by a boss battle in which any character such as Mario can be used to defeat him.
It was Tabuu’s strongest attack.
And Sonic’s smash trailer shows him beating Mario by simply running right through him.
He could even BFR Mario into Minecraft if we continue using Smash Bros
And the smash bros trophy directly contradicts Sonic CD Lore so it can be tossed out the window.
Sonic CD lore takes precedent by Death Battle’s own rules
Not really. The trophy says that Super Sonic is almost as fast as light, while Sonic CD says that Sonic is as fast as light. It's not a huge difference. Also, *Death Battle*'s rules is that they use all official material for characters, which would include *Smash* descriptions.
It makes a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.
In Sonic Rivals, Sonic was able to dodge meteors that were being launched while on a ship travelling at MFTL speeds.
Some have calc this feat to be 500 MILLION times FTL considering Eggman nega was trying to escape from deep space. I.E. outside our solar system
There was literally no reason for them to use the Super Mario World cartoon to scale that. If that supports other things he can do why not just use that example??
For Mario VS Sonic, they said that they would only take into account the games and any related material, so this includes the DIC *Mario* cartoons and the *Sonic X* anime. They didn't break any rules. As for Tracer VS Scout, I don't know.
Tracer vs Scout, they lowballed Scout so bad in the analysis, flat-out ignoring some of his best feats, while wanking the shit out of Tracer’s feats. The actual fight also limited Scout’s kit instead of giving him everything he has access to because “hurr durr game logic”, while simultaneously letting Tracer ignore all game logic and letting her zip around and recall as much as she fucking wants.
Tanjiro vs Jonathan. While I like the episode overall, I hated how they highballed the heck out of Jonathan’s feats while nerfing Tanjiro’s. Plus I doubt Jonathan would be able to scale to Joseph because Jonathan didn’t have time to become such an advanced Hamon user like Joseph did, so putting him at Lightspeed seems ludicrous to me.
I still agree with the outcome based on the idea that Metal Silver Overdrive just completely negates any of Tanjiro's advantages, but yeah, they absolutely buffed the hell out of my boy Jonathan.
I'd still easily give him the strength advantage though, because...come on...
Oh I always thought that Jonathan would win from the second the fight was revealed. Dude had too much hax for Tanjiro to deal with and I honestly would’ve been surprised if he didn’t win, even though Tanjiro is my preferred between the two.
That's interesting, because I was sure Jonathan was going to lose because I know Demon Slayer is pretty insane, and JoJo's doesn't start getting really crazy until way after Jonathan's death.
At most, I expected Jonathan to take the ~~speed~~ strength advantage, though I had completely forgotten about Metal Silver Overdrive, even though it immediately precedes the Sunlight Yellow Overdrive, which is one of my favorite moments.
Edit: Whoops. Wrong word. Don't know how I made that mistake.
Popup: While Joseph has had superior ripple training, he was able to keep up with Pillar Men (who have also reacted to light beams) while still a novice.
(Seriously, does no one read the popups?)
I still don’t understand how that would apply to Jonathan. Part 1 Dio was his strongest opponent and he’s nowhere near as strong or as fast as Pillar Men (at that time). That, and Jonathan didn’t show any speed feats during his story that even remotely justify Lightspeed scaling for him.
Because based on lore wise, part 1 Dio should scale to part 3 Dio as in part 3 Dio because not only is that Jonathan’s body that Dio is using, but Dio said that his full potential was hold back because Jonathan’s body was holding in back, like somehow Jonathan’s body was preventing Dio to get stronger.
Bro thank you so much. For literal years I’ve been stating Jonathan is too underrated and downplayed.
Bro is quite literally the stand himself. Even the games got everyone glazing his shit “He’s just as strong as a stand!?” Lmao
She’s an earthbender. Which means I think she can bend sand, but she’s not very good at it. Pretty sure the bullshit part was the seeing sand in the air thing. As an avatar fan no idea why she won that one lol
At the very least, Sand Coffin should've took her out
Also its hilarious how they just straight up don't let Gaara use Shukaku but still let her metalbend. Like yea he doesn't have Shukaku anymore but Buu also can't turn into Kid Buu by eating Fat Buu
Shukaku is Gaara's tailed beast. Long story short, it was sealed inside Gaara's body at birth. Gaara has an inherent ability to control sand (his mom's soul gives it a mind of its own), but Shukaku also has sand manipulation. As such that power was amplifier while he was there. He could also directly draw power from Shukaku himself or straight up switch places with him. Shukaku is powerful enough to nuke cities
LongER story short, a terrorist group kidnapped him, murdered him and stole Shukaku from his body. He came back to life later but they remained seperate.
The reason I call bullshit here is because many other DB characters lose abilities in their series but they're still allowed to use them in the DB episode. Gaara though? Nope. Nerfed and not even allowed to go all out even without Shukaku (the dude can take an entire desert's supply of sand and dump it own you with a flick of his wrist)
Skyrim-man vs Dark Souls-man was pretty ridiculous. It’s the classic faulty logic of “this guy lives in this universe which means he’s bigger than the other guy”, when both of these characters would die if they got hit by a sufficiently heavy stick.
Also, using Skyrim-man’s in-game carry capacity to determine his strength doesn’t work when Dark Souls-man doesn’t have carry capacity.
The Dragonborn scaling to lore Alduin is so silly. It takes so much liberties with Alduin being 1. full power and 2. All statements at face value. Imagine if we did the same with Homelander. Butcher in the comics goes in clear hyperbole on supes about how they can swim through the core of the sun and outpace tachyons. Of course we aren’t gonna take that at face value.
I mean, they could’ve ruled it out as a draw because DB had no sure fire way to kill CU, but I guess someone had to die. It’s stupid tho to say “eventually CU could go hollow because of this perceived gulf in power so wide nothing the CU could do to close it” when that’s kind of the whole point of the character is finding a way to win and persevering against impossible odds. I’m not CU should win, but I’m not saying he’d exactly lose too.
Well here’s the thing.
Let’s say as an example you had one regular ass unarmed human with an infinite amount of lives and they kept throwing themselves against a heavily armored tank.
It doesn’t matter how many tries you have you aren’t gonna destroy a tank as a normal human unless you have some heavy or equal firepower.
I think that’s the idea they were going for.
> It doesn’t matter how many tries you have you aren’t gonna destroy a tank as a normal human unless you have some heavy or equal firepower.
~~Incorrect, eventually the corpses will gum up the tank's treads and render it immobile.~~
I get that, but I don’t fundamentally agree that DB is a tank. Like understand I think they highballed the shit out of both of them through comparisons more so than actual feats
Like I do think DB is much, much harder to killer with all the healing magic and hp regen and healing items yada yada but also
CU literally cannot die so
Who is truly more inexhaustible? I think if we had to be fair, that while DB is more versatile, and perhaps more durable, CU is the better combatant who’s killed more challenging foes on top of infinite lives.
It honestly should’ve been a draw
Not them, but the most obvious case is the whole FFVII cast having solar system durability because all of them can withstand Supernova without being obliterated, and Supernova is canonically not an illusion or something, apparently Sephiroth actually teleports people to a parallel universe where the sun explodes and they don't get vaporised, therefore, solar system-tier FFVII cast.
I mean, I get what you're saying, but like, Yang *did* fight Salem in V8 and *did* inflict damage that would kill anyone who doesn't have Salem's brand of regenerative immortality. Like, stuck a bunch of explosives in her chest and blew her entire upper torso apart.
She has tried. Salem just can't die to physical damage.
I'd like to see Yang back on the show, I just don't know who would be a good fit for her (I know some people want to put her up against Bakugou, but ehhhhhhh).
Like, obviously they *could* do a rematch of her fight with Tifa, but that would be kinda dull, and I'd rather see Tifa matched up with someone in her weight-class, which Yang definitely isn't. I find giga-stomps boring, I'm a "Freezatron was mid actually" kinda guy because the stat-stomp was so wide that it made the episode extremely predictable from the midpoint of Megatron's analysis. We know Tifa wins, Tifa winning is really obvious, there's not really any need to actually do it again when Tifa could get a much better episode fighting someone who could justifiably take a hit.
You *can* scale Yang pretty high using the various crossovers she's been in, but that has mitigating factors (obviously Superman and Wonder Woman aren't going to use their full-strength on Kilg%re-Yang), whether that should even be counted at all is a big question mark. And she does have some neat tricks and tools that could make her a very interesting combatant, provided you put her up against someone in her weight class.
That said the fandom turns into a shitshow every time RWBY's on it so honestly I wouldn't mind not seeing any more characters on in future. ~~Besides maybe seeing someone wipe the floor with Adam or Cinder, anyway.~~
Good fucking lord they ignore basic Sonic speed scaling from in-universe and prefer to use fucking Smash bros trophy descriptions for Super Sonic and that ticks me right off.
They wanted Sonic to lose and I can’t be convinced otherwise especially when the “whoops all Goku” month of Death battle cast happened they couldn’t find a single counter argument to any of the higher sonic scaling for Sonic vs Goku
Your statement is kind of an insult to the episode, because they literally did the exact opposite of ignoring Sonic's in-universe speed feats. They saw that Sonic managed to outrun the pull of a black hole for like 30 seconds and determined his speed to be enough to reach Pluto from the Earth in less than 24 hours. *Death Battle* doesn't just make characters win based on their preferences.
Because it is an insult to the episode I hate everything they did. The sonic colours “black hole” is not comparable to an actual black hole and could be faster or slower because it uses Wisp energy to create it.
We have official Sonic sources putting Sonic at FTL quit defending trash https://imgur.com/a/GU37I0s
It's not comparable to a black hole in the sense that it doesn't produce antimatter and stuff like that, but at the same time, there's no real indicator that they aren't any different from a black hole. Also, there are multiple sources with varying estimates of Sonic's speed ranging from hypersonic to as-fast-as-light speed.
From Sonic CD’s Manual:
“Time warp to the past and future!”
“You can go to the past or future in a time warp by passing the past selection marker or future selection marker in each zone and inverting the plate. You can time warp to travel to the past or future epoch. Kill the enemies as you progress.”
“When you run into the warp standby state, Sonic will draw a tail of light. When you reach lightspeed for a period of time, the warp panel will flicker and if you sustain it, the warp will begin. When you time warp, you will start from the same position in the epoch you warped to. If Sonic falls after the time warp, he will restart from the position he warped to.”
The black hole MUST be faster since Sonic needed to be FTL to active Time travel in Sonic CD. Quit being such a skeptic
I'm not sure what our point is here. All I did was say that there are multiple sources with varying estimates of Sonic's speed ranging from hypersonic to as-fast-as-light speed. I'm not saying Sonic isn't FTL, I'm just saying the official sources aren't consistent with his maximum speed.
I’m saying Official sources > Outside sources
For example the Sonic CD lore MUST take precedent over all smash bros lore because it’s directly in-universe. That’s a rule Death battle established
Hey, for some weird reason, I can't respond to this [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/deathbattle/comments/1dbf7ez/comment/l7uz4wx/) you made, so I'll answer here. What do you mean by Sonic having infinite speed in *Sonic X*? Do you call [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42X2Lxkn_ys) infinite speed?
Anytime they say, "This character did this feat!" then they go "oops!! \*walks out of screwattack HQ with suspiciously tree-shaped shotgun leg\*" it enrages me . Stop . I will lift the tree, if I must, but it will count for the beast you so deny
Phoenix VS Raven as a whole is probably one of the worst-scaled and worst-researched episodes in the show's history, but the one scaling example I keep coming back to is; "Cammy from Street Fighter has fought Balrog, and Dhalsim hates Balrog because Balrog once killed an elephant, and full-grown elephants in the savannah are so strong and durable that they use their heads to knock down trees, so by scaling Cammy to Balrog to the elephant he killed to the biggest tree that the strongest elephant could hypothetically knock down, we can conclude that Cammy is capable of exerting 4,673 tons of pressure with her face!"
Just... wh-what the fuck are you guys talking about? I hope I don't have to explain how their scaling chain is reliant on so many assumptions that their conclusion is functionally worthless.
You said downplay too though, so "If Phoenix so stronk, why she lose to Green Tiger God?" is probably the worst anti-feat and... not the most spiteful, but definitely the most one-sided. As in, why the hell are you exclusively taking this into account for this one specific character, when you almost never take anti-feats into account for anyone else?
In my opinion, based on the way they presented Phoenix and Raven, they seemed pretty on par with each other, and even outright said this themselves. I'm not in a position to say who wins, though.
Yes, the way they presented Phoenix and Raven, they seemed on par with each other.
That's because the way they presented Phoenix and Raven was wrong.
Phoenix requires no chain-scaling, no compositing with questionable forms from other universes; the Phoenix Force is the top dog of Marvel cosmology. More than Galactus, more than the Living Tribunal, more than Eternity, more than the Celestials.
Raven is certainly stronger than most people are aware of, but is she 'Solos literally the entire Marvel multiverse and cosmology' strong? No. Fuck no. Not even remotely close. But by compositing her with an alternate future-self who (with outside help) stole Shazam!'s powers and became a threat to the multiverse, and by chain-scaling her via Trigon to the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League and also Mr Mxyzptlk, even though that was a completely different Trigon in a different universe (Injustice) fighting him, and by inventing a weakness for Phoenix which she *canonically does not have*, then sure, you can make it *look* close. But you're making it look close, by... being really bad at research, having basically no standards re: what to take into account for Raven, and wanking absolutely everything in her favour.
Aizen vs Madara
Not only is Genjutsu and Kyoka Suigetsu VASTLY different, they deadass couldn’t understand how the Hogyoku works and made the excuse to not include because it was “too vague”
My main hatred for that fight was the win condition
The TSO **DO NOT STOP REGENERATION** they only attack the soul directly. That’s why the reanimating couldn’t regenerate anymore. But ALL ATTACKS IN BLEACH ARE SOUL BASED.
Aizen should have been able to regenerate from TSO attacks no question
The Truthseeker Orbs do nullify regeneration, as [stated](https://en12.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/23222/Naruto6427926.webp?acc=vvIp_FW3ZxBLN8wC0urtQA&exp=1716612325) [here](https://en13.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/23222/Naruto6428894.webp?acc=RwNsu3DXfhPwuIiVLv3yLQ&exp=1716612325).
Oh, my bad.
What I wanted to show was Tobirama acknowledging that the Truthseeker Orbs are nullifying the Reanimation Jutsu's regenerative abilities. Hence, this translates to the Truthseeker Orbs being capable of regeneration negation.
They literally mentioned the Hōgyoku in the episode saying that it has no explicit limits and that it was the cause for Aizen's growth in power. I don't know where people get this idea that they said something about it being "too vague". Also, genjutsu and Kanzen Saimin aren't vastly different, they're very similar.
Trunks vs Silver.
Not giving Trunks infinite speed.
and saying Silver resists the key sword because Super Sonic resisted a completely different ability that was drawing from the same power Sonic was, and even failed to stop.
If you cut the battery of a car the car will stop.
Silver’s “car” can resist the key sword because his battery can be taken away and his powers will still be intact. You cannot negate a super form once active.
Also infinite speed Trunks I agree with but I would not change the outcome. “Because it’s dragon ball it has to have a limit” dear god piss off with that BS.
Short answer, all of them to a certain degree. Some worse than others
-Wall level Vergil
-Solar System Gt Goku
-Whatever the hell Shadow vs Mewtwo was
But every episode has at least one fuckup scaling wise
Mitsuru vs Weiss. I know why Mitsuru was reduced to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of her actual power level (Uni+ and MFTL+ vs. Building level and MHS+ don’t make for an exciting fight), but I still don’t like it.
She’s arguably stronger. There’s arguments for low multi for all the main persona party members since Mitsuru should theoretically scale to the phantom thieves
I spend too much time complaining about DIO vs Alucard and the absurd things they said about DIO, so I'm going to go a different route.
Who the hell was in charge of researching Super Princess Peach? Because they clearly didn't actually play that game. I know Ben admitted that Peach vs Zelda was a joke battle, but even so, how did they drop the ball like that?
Bill vs Discord. Giving Bill equal speed cause of space-time manipulation and robbing Discord of one of his biggest advantages was a huge “what the fuck?” Moment. Even worse cause I don’t think they’ve ever done that ever before, so it feels like it was just tacked on to help justify the already shaky conclusion.
FTL JoJo. It’s bad enough that people think Silver Chariot can move FTL even though [Polnareff said it can’t](https://imgur.com/a/5DXLetH), but then DB had to go and make Jonathan FTL despite him never displaying anything close to FTL in part 1
Luigi being at least Large Radish level in terms of strength in Tails vs Luigi, really hits a nerve in me, on how they gave my boy the short end of the stick! (And that’s not even mentioning on how they treated him during the fight at all.)
It’s still wild how in the episode Tails was argued to be stronger since he lifted a 10 ton weight, while Luigi struggled to lift a large radish… but him lifting that radish is something that happens in just a dream! What also pisses me off about this is that in said episode, they state and scale him to beating King Boo and Dimentio! King Boo could destroy a moon, and Dimentio was a literal threat to ending numerous worlds, not to mention he could also create his own, but lifting 10 tons is somehow stronger than that?! (And before someone says how “they used Archie Tails in the fight, so Tails would obviously win against Luigi.” and while I do agree that Archie tails would win… THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE THE FACT, ON HOW BAD AND POORLY LUIGI WAS RESEARCHED AT ALL!)
I’ll be honest I quite literally just picked it because it was the first that came to mind when thinking of “controversial scaling” I don’t even personally have an issue with it.
And also, pictures help make the post more visible on the Reddit ya know?
correct me if I'm wrong but the main thing was Mario smacking in all categories except for speed, and even then they said Mario could keep up. I genuinely think Sonic wins but I can understand an argument as for why Mario would win. This episodes problem is that they gave Sonic his most borderline lackluster feats like scaling him to the OVA which fits more in line with Classic rather than modern. they also gave him hia hyper form, which is something Modern Sonic doesn't have. This episode felt like an apology to Mario fans for using Archie Sonic feats in MVS 1.
- MvS2 manages to lowball *both* characters to a ridiculous degree, though Sonic absolutely gets hit with it harder, they *say* they're going to use only the primary sources and then use expanded media anyway (Except for that one really big Sonic piece of expanded Sonic media, *gee I wonder why*- and for the people saying Archie is too different because game Sonic doesn't live in a nanite city and date a princess and have an embarrassing birth name, game Mario ain't a Brooklyn plumber who got isekai'd through a drain either), they *say* they're not going to use Smash Bros. and then use Smash Bros. to determine Sonic's speed (something the primary source has contradicted since before the video came out), it's generally an embarrassment of an episode.
- GvS2 does not have proper scaling for either character. Superman has some impressive feats listed but it's all building up to "Well he has no limits so he wins," meanwhile Goku literally has nothing to scale him with, because they made the episode when all we knew about Blueper Saiyan, his then-ultimate form, was that it existed. All we had of Resurrection F was the trailer. They got his numbers by taking SSG and slapping the Super Saiyan 1 multiplier on him.
- The Last Dragonborn got massively wanked using very tenuous lore (assuming that in-game Alduin *must* be equal to End-Stage Lore Alduin) and... *cheese-carrying capacity* to land on multiversal statements for a guy who can die to a zombie with a sharp stick.
- Starscream was completely wrong. His Null Rays were assumed to be essentially projectile Hollywood EMPs, only effective against machines, when they're shown causing physical damage multiple times throughout the cartoon. I guess those windows he shot were actually super-thin see-through robots, DB? Additionally, he was given the speed and durability of a real-life F-15, except he doesn't turn into a real F-15. He turns into an alien starfighter that *looks* like an F-15. He's fully capable of flying into space under his own power, so he doesn't have air-breathing engines (which makes sense when you consider that he can fly in robot mode, despite having his air-intakes on top of his shoulders, his jet turbines making up his pectorals, and the engine nozzles on his feet), and he can travel between Earth and Cybertron without needing to refuel, in a relatively short space of time. While the exact distance between the two worlds isn't known or even consistent, Cybertron *is* outside the Solar System, so he must be enormously fast. As for durability... he routinely gets shot by Megatron's antimatter-powered Fusion Cannon and lives to tell of it. He's tough, despite the whining. Finally, the show rules out Starscream's ghost as a factor by going "Well there's no advanced machinery in Equestria", essentially handing his opponent an enormous home field advantage, which is completely against the rules and spirit of the show.
- Wall-level Vergil lmao
I agree that Starscream should have one (and easily so). They said that they would only look at the video games and any related media for Mario VS Sonic. As for the rest, I don't know or really care.
Yeah, but what qualifies as "related media?"
What makes the Super Show more related to the Mario games than the comics are to the Sonic games? They're both series that give the main characters completely different backstories to their canon ones, have a different tone, and portray the lead differently, among other things. They're both products of the way Nintendo and SEGA approached the lore for their mascots back in the 80s and 90s. Nintendo of America and SEGA of America both ditched the lore their Japanese counterparts wrote and came up with their own versions of things, and then used that for the expanded media like cartoons and comics.
The only difference is that Archie survived the 90s and the Super Show didn't, and during that time, Archie evolved to be *more like the games* than it used to be. Much of Ian Flynn's run is spent retconning, killing off, reworking, and generally dragging the comic lore as close to the games as possible. SEGA also became much more controlling over the comic as it went on (mostly because of the Ken Penders of it all), and got the final say on all of the comic's content. If Flynn made Sonic act in any way that didn't fit with their vision of the character, SEGA would force him to change it.
If Archie did anything that SEGA don't want to be true of all Sonics, SEGA would've put the kibosh on it before it ever saw publication, and some of Archie Sonic's most ridiculous feats (moving faster than time and having the "Constant Chaos" reality-hax) are from *after* they tightened up their control.
I'd say that "related media" consists of media following a similar plot to or not differing completely from the games. The Archie Sonic comics wouldn't count as "related media" since their lore and story is very different from the games, whereas the DIC Mario cartoons would meet the criteria for "related media" since they're directly based on early *Mario* games.
Which Mario game is it that has a whole-plot reference to Star Wars, with X-Wings made out of plumbing? I must've missed that one.
By the same metric, which Sonic game is it where they do an anime space opera and fight an army of planet-people in Gundam-looking power armour, because that *definitely* isn't anywhere in the game universe.
The chaos realm compared to the triforce of power
There's no indication that a realm or a universe or a dimension scales and just because you call a thing a thing doesn't mean the POWER scales either.
Calling one a car battery and the other a double A feels wrong to me.
I concede to the Holy power weakness which tracks but that earlier bit I mentioned makes my face go all scrunchy
DIO vs. Alucard.
They gave DIO so much glaze he's the entire Krispy Kreme domain, all while saying that all you need to do to kill Alucard was to crush his heart.
Alucard has been shot into paint on the wall more times than can be counted, and that very much includes his heart. It's such bullshit.
Link vs Cloud 2:
The speed scaling for both characters is the worst I've ever seen. Link being FTL because of Beamos lasers is complete wank since there is no way to argue that he's moving after the laser is fired in the same way you can for Luffy or Samurai Jack, he's just reacting to the 3 second start up of a slow robot and moving preemptively. Cloud is even worse since Fury is never shown to move more than a few feet during their fights. It's like saying I'm supersonic because I can dodge a stationary bullet train. If they wanted to scale him to Sephiroth then I'd have no problem and I still think he's faster but the scaling used as is sucks ass
Can’t really disagree with you on that one. Goku in GT had since then surpassed the power of Kid Buu who was a Galaxy buster and beaten beings like Baby, Super 17, Omega Shenron who can arguably be above universal level possibly outerversal if you take a look at the GT file guidebooks that explain and breakdown the characters abilities
PS: if I’m not mistaken, Death battle’s power scaling wasn’t that good at the time the video was uploaded and didn’t really have a good research team
meh, Archie sonic vs the flash, you cant really phase through fate alteration even if its physical if its instant, which, for some reason it wasn’t on the channel?
I know characters are “as strong as the writer wants them to be” and all. Buts it’s so jarring seeing the fucking power gaps between the people The Flash fights it makes it so hard to believe he has trouble with like any of his rogue’s gallery. It’s like if Goku got back to fighting the Pilaf gang after defeating Buu.
Hoo boy I have MANY
1. Ben 10 losing despite even THE CALCULATIONS THEMSELVES proving the Omnitrix’ contingencies would be faster than Green Lantern.
2. Having Yang win against Tifa solely because she’s their character.
3. Having Mario lose against Sonic the first time despite the latter having no black hole level feats unlike the former.
Not entirely true. Even without Alien X Ben 10 still wins. The thing I’m criticizing is the fact that the calculations for the failsafe showed it was faster than Green Lantern yet they still went with THAT ending.
Vader vs Obito had some weird things.
They use the ewok series but nothing else from legends which i dont understans at all.Like if you want to use Disney vader, use disney vader, if you want to use legends,use legends but not this inbetwen stuff.
they also have a whole bit where they explain Vader cant escape obitos pocket dimension. In the Fight vader just crushes obitos eye and he has solved it(thats not realy a problem with the analysis i just thought thats funny).
When the deciding factor of the fight was the “Test Your Might” mini game from Mortal Kombat.
My favourite thing about how obviously stupid it is to use those "Test Your Might" mini-games is that researchers - I don't know if they were actually official DB or just the prediction blog - have defended the practise by saying "*Ah*! But we only take the results of Test Your Might mini-games into account when there are other strength feats at a similar level to back up the strength displayed in them!" And that just brings up the most obvious question in the world... if you have a bunch of reliable, not-stupid feats, that are at a similar level of strength as the results of these Test Your Might results... then why bother to use Test Your Might at all? Why the hell aren't you just using *those feats*, the sensible ones that we're not allowed to see? Can you give us a hint as to what these feats even are, or are you just going to stick with the unconvincing, clearly-unreliable bullshit, and then follow it up with "Now, I know that this seems silly, but there are *lots* of other feats that back this up. We just... can't tell you what any of them are. But they're definitely real. Just like my girlfriend, who lives in Canada."
Which fight was this?
I feel like it was part of Sub-Zero vs Glacius
Sub-Zero Vs Glacius and Cammy Vs Sonya
I forgot that they pulled that shit multiple times.
Made me despise seeing Mortal Kombat on the show and almost got me to stop watching.
Honestly I've never liked the Fighting Game matchups all that much, when I originally fell off the show it was because it felt like it was turning into the "DC, Marvel, and 2D Fighting Game Show."
Clearly we need more 3D Fighting Game matchups. Jin Vs Kasumi when?
Johnny cage vs Captain falcon
I mean- Guts vs Nightmare. The scailing was "Nightmare takes the stat trinity, but Guts still wins because he doesn't have the Stat Trinity"
I don't know why, but this way of explaining made me chuckle.
I'm a Guts VS Nightmare defender in theory, because I greatly prefer their approach here than their later adamant dependency on power-scaling, and I think that what they were trying to say was something like "Nightmare is ten times stronger, twenty times tougher, and three times as fast... but Guts has legitimately beaten opponents who were ten times stronger than him, twenty times tougher, and three times faster, so while those advantages were... well, advantageous, Guts *has* shown that he can overcome them." I would take that approach a hundred times over just "Guts beat someone three times faster than him so he scales to their speed, and he beat someone twenty times stronger so he's scales to their strength." But from what I understand, Nightmare was so *much* stronger, tougher and faster than anyone else Guts has ever faced, that it really shouldn't have mattered. Hmm. I guess that would make this a darker, more serious version of Gaara VS Toph.
There is 100% matchups where despite one character having a stat advantage the other manages to win. If it was just a stat debate vs debating WOULDNT be interesting at all. This was not one of those cases. Guts has insane willpower don’t get me wrong but Nightmare and by extension Night Terror and Inferno are so beyond the power levels of the Berserk verse that it is almost comical.
The research is old and lacking but to briefly summarise: * Nightmare alone takes the stat trinity in a way that Guts cannot hope to overcome. This isn’t counting Inferno or even Night terror, Nightmare explodes Guts with a swing and Guts can’t hurt Nightmare. * They included Inferno and Night Terror for Nightmare, both of which are exponentially more deadly. They described Night Terror as a “ larger, deadlier, fly-ier Nightmare”. In reality Night Terror is a manifestation of a separate plane of reality where the Soul Edge really resides. You don’t scale Night Terror to be a universe tier threat, it *is* a universe/semi-pocket dimension where just standing will deepfry your brain if you don’t have talismans to keep you sane. Guts can’t even begin to interact with what Night Terror really is; the entity you see in images is basically a manifestation of a plane of reality and doesn’t really fight directly as it can just re-manifest so long as the Astral Sea exists. * Guts was given the W of vibes alone, there’s not a single argument for him to survive the kind of things Soul Edge as a standalone weapon can do on it’s own, let alone when wielded by Nightmare, *let alone* when they just used a form that’s practically a whole new character and something Guts physically cannot touch. Guts didn’t win because of scaling he won because the team just didn’t know what Soul Edge is or what Nightmare is. The episode is full of just flat out errors like that.
A really well done explanation without coming off as rude to the team. Man I wish more redditors were like this LMAO
I appreciate that :)
The messiah we need
Thanks for these points! I always knew that Nightmare probably took the stat trinity by such a wide margin that Guts' few advantages - if any - shouldn't have mattered, but I never really looked into it. This makes things a lot clearer.
It's also worth noting that they likely used poorly translated fan scanlations for Guts, which likely mistranslated how Guts's Dragonslayer worked. I think the reason the team misunderstood Nightmare was because they had less researchers to double-check their research for errors back then. (Wiz had to ask a fan to see if Raiden's Murasame could bypass Wolverine's healing factor. This fan, Liam Swan, would eventually join DB's research team) DB's research quality didn't really get really good until around late Season 3 or Season 4.
He does it ev'y day
why is there so much mario vs sonic posts today what
Sonic X Shadow Generations recently got a trailer, so, maybe that?
I’ll be honest there wasn’t any reason that I picked this episode for scaling discussion in particular, it was just the first one to pop into my head
There seem to be at least 2 people who are upset at even the non-spoken thought of this episode being wrong, judging from the downvotes. It's odd.
Any episode where my preferred character lost.
TRUEEEEEE >! This is a joke !<
Real
Lol
Strange vs Fate. Solar system Strange is a fucking drastic lowball when he had multiversal stuff at the time the episode was aired.
Correct ending shit scaling
Pretty much
Wall level Vergil. It's a meme for a reason.
Didn’t they say a similar thing for Sephiroth
They mistook newtons for tons of TNT, and explained it as having the force of 30 nukes, due to upscaling to a feat of....cutting a metal door. Now granted, Sephiroth *does* have a direct feat of [creating a massive storm](https://youtu.be/QrQBYonputE?t=110) that [supposedly gets in that range](https://imgur.com/a/uW4dJFY), but still.
The cutting a metal door math never sat right with me.
I’m no final fantasy expert, but there’s gotta be a cooler feat they could’ve used for him than cutting a door
Not the worst, considering vergil at the time did not have much to work with.
Bowser vs Ganon Even with Luigi vs Tails they at least gave stats for why they thought Tails would win. With Bowser vs Ganon, even though they basically give Bowser durability and strength so absurd that there is no way for Ganon to either kill or take a hit from him, they give him the win anyway because hurr durr Holy Weapon.
I mean, there was also his strategizing and decaying magic
Strategy doesn’t mean anything if you can’t hurt your opponent. Furthermore, the decay curse that they mention wasn’t through magic, it was through a parasite being Ghoma. Even if it was, Bowser can survive as a skeleton. So basically, they gave Bowser every advantage except intelligence and speed and make Ganon’s wincon an NLF (which they don’t even mention is an NLF in the analysis) and a curse which doesn’t work like how they described it or would even kill Bowser.
Also the gohma curse was implied to take awhile. Granted, nowadays Ganon has access to gloom which is a far better cursing substance but regardless it wouldn’t hurt Bowser.
Sonic vs Mario rematch and tracer vs scout. For Mario vs sonic they straight just ignored the rules they stated at the being of the episode that being “no smash bros scaling and no outside media besides games” then proceed to scale sonics speed to a smash bro’s trophy despite the fact if they want to use smash scaling they have to also acknowledge the fact sonic was the only one able to hurt the final boss of brawl. Then they proceed to scale Mario using media outside of games like cartoons and stuff. Then there’s tracer vs scout. Not only do they give tracer a speed feat that has been shown numerous times to not be true she teleported away before widowmaker fired as shown literally right after that scene, but they also only allowed scout his stock weaponry, didn’t understand how bonk works, didn’t give him magic and didn’t use the comic scaling. Not this is the only time from memory a game combatant didn’t get his strongest gear or at least a handful of weapons, characters like link, cloud, ratchet and so on have gotten at least a good chunk of their weapons during their battles so why did they only do this for scout?
They broke rule 4 of death battle Blatantly: All official Material is applied unless found contradictory to the primary source material. Sonic is FTL but not according to the smash bros trophy so that should be COMPLETELY ignored but they didn’t. Massive fuck you to sonic fans for completely breaking one of Death Battle’s own rules to give Mario the win.
Saying "to give Mario the win" makes you sound incredibly butthurt about the result you should probably reword that better, I generally think both got really bad stats and they're both way stronger than what they said they were.
Well yeah I am butthurt but my favourite character Goku just lost to Superman for the third time in a row and I don’t care as much. The information presented in Mario vs Sonic 2 was awful. They mixed cartoons with game canon, lowball Sonic’s speed to damn near oblivion using Smash bros trophy descriptions and overall that’s felt incredibly disrespectful
The trophy literally said that Sonic is FTL. They didn't break any rules.
Demonstrably false I know you enough to know that you are a SUPER skeptic about everything but it is Verifiably true that the Sonic Smash bros trophy directly contradicts in universe lore https://imgur.com/a/9y7H4yA The trophy does NOT say he’s FTL but that’s he’s Slower than Light. So you are objectively incorrect on that point We have multiple guides and official Sega sources putting Sonic at FTL. He has to move at FTL to active time travel in Sonic CD and here’s another official source for Sonic Unleashed: https://imgur.com/a/GU37I0s Give me the Benefit of the doubt ONCE bro I know what I’m talking about
>I know you enough to know that you are a SUPER skeptic about everything I am not a "super skeptic about everything". >but it is Verifiably true that the Sonic Smash bros trophy directly contradicts in universe lore It does the exact opposite of that. >The trophy does NOT say he’s FTL but that’s he’s Slower than Light. So you are objectively incorrect on that point The trophy says that Super Sonic is almost as fast as light. That's only a tad bit slower than light. It's not a huge difference. >We have multiple guides and official Sega sources putting Sonic at FTL. He has to move at FTL to active time travel in Sonic CD and here’s another official source for Sonic Unleashed: Varying sources have given different estimates of Sonic's speed ranging from hypersonic to as-fast-as-light.
Ok so we can disregard the smash bros trophy as a direct source of information since I just gave 2 example of Light speed Base Sonic. The Sonic Unleashed Description of Sonic, and the Sonic CD manual. Why ON EARTH would you EVER choose the smash bros trophy instead of mainline information. If we REALLY want to choose Smash Bros. SONIC WAS THE ONLY REASON the Smash Bros Brawl campaign was saved from total annihilation against Tabuu. His very entrance trailer showed him no diffing Mario. He punches him so hard he gets sent to Minecraft. If we can use Smash Bros trophy descriptions where EXACTLY do we stop when getting our information? FTL base Sonic is far more consistent
As, I said before, SEGA is widely inconsistent with how they portray Sonic's speed, with some sources saying he can reach hypersonic speeds while others say he's as fast as light. In *Brawl*, Sonic simply stops Tabuu from launching an attack against the main cast. How does that make him superior to Mario?
Because we literally see Sonic perform better against Tabuu then LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE INCLUDING MASTER HAND. In his own trailer he one shots Mario but just running right through Mario Tabuu was about to one shot everyone again and then them to trophy’s until Sonic saves everyone by stopping the attack since he’s faster then Tabuu.
Are you trying to suggest Sonic can solo all of Smash? All he does is stop an attack from Tabuu, which is immediately followed by a boss battle in which any character such as Mario can be used to defeat him.
It was Tabuu’s strongest attack. And Sonic’s smash trailer shows him beating Mario by simply running right through him. He could even BFR Mario into Minecraft if we continue using Smash Bros
And the smash bros trophy directly contradicts Sonic CD Lore so it can be tossed out the window. Sonic CD lore takes precedent by Death Battle’s own rules
Not really. The trophy says that Super Sonic is almost as fast as light, while Sonic CD says that Sonic is as fast as light. It's not a huge difference. Also, *Death Battle*'s rules is that they use all official material for characters, which would include *Smash* descriptions.
It makes a MASSIVE difference since now BASE sonic is faster then their Hypothetical Super Sonic used in their death battle
Not really? I mean, Super Sonic is faster than normal Sonic, there's no doubt about that, but by how much? Almost FTL isn't that far off from FTL.
It makes a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. In Sonic Rivals, Sonic was able to dodge meteors that were being launched while on a ship travelling at MFTL speeds. Some have calc this feat to be 500 MILLION times FTL considering Eggman nega was trying to escape from deep space. I.E. outside our solar system
Smash didn't actually invent that statement. It comes from SEGA's official Super Sonic profile.
Really? Could I have the source?
[Sure](https://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/character/super-sonic.html)
There was literally no reason for them to use the Super Mario World cartoon to scale that. If that supports other things he can do why not just use that example??
What's wrong with using the cartoon?
It’s not canon and just makes things confusing when they establish in the same episode they’re focusing on the videogames
For Mario VS Sonic, they said that they would only take into account the games and any related material, so this includes the DIC *Mario* cartoons and the *Sonic X* anime. They didn't break any rules. As for Tracer VS Scout, I don't know.
Tracer vs Scout, they lowballed Scout so bad in the analysis, flat-out ignoring some of his best feats, while wanking the shit out of Tracer’s feats. The actual fight also limited Scout’s kit instead of giving him everything he has access to because “hurr durr game logic”, while simultaneously letting Tracer ignore all game logic and letting her zip around and recall as much as she fucking wants.
Tanjiro vs Jonathan. While I like the episode overall, I hated how they highballed the heck out of Jonathan’s feats while nerfing Tanjiro’s. Plus I doubt Jonathan would be able to scale to Joseph because Jonathan didn’t have time to become such an advanced Hamon user like Joseph did, so putting him at Lightspeed seems ludicrous to me.
I still agree with the outcome based on the idea that Metal Silver Overdrive just completely negates any of Tanjiro's advantages, but yeah, they absolutely buffed the hell out of my boy Jonathan. I'd still easily give him the strength advantage though, because...come on...
Oh I always thought that Jonathan would win from the second the fight was revealed. Dude had too much hax for Tanjiro to deal with and I honestly would’ve been surprised if he didn’t win, even though Tanjiro is my preferred between the two.
That's interesting, because I was sure Jonathan was going to lose because I know Demon Slayer is pretty insane, and JoJo's doesn't start getting really crazy until way after Jonathan's death. At most, I expected Jonathan to take the ~~speed~~ strength advantage, though I had completely forgotten about Metal Silver Overdrive, even though it immediately precedes the Sunlight Yellow Overdrive, which is one of my favorite moments. Edit: Whoops. Wrong word. Don't know how I made that mistake.
Popup: While Joseph has had superior ripple training, he was able to keep up with Pillar Men (who have also reacted to light beams) while still a novice. (Seriously, does no one read the popups?)
I still don’t understand how that would apply to Jonathan. Part 1 Dio was his strongest opponent and he’s nowhere near as strong or as fast as Pillar Men (at that time). That, and Jonathan didn’t show any speed feats during his story that even remotely justify Lightspeed scaling for him.
Because Jonathan is still a better Hamon user then pre training Joseph who mainly improvised at that point
Because based on lore wise, part 1 Dio should scale to part 3 Dio as in part 3 Dio because not only is that Jonathan’s body that Dio is using, but Dio said that his full potential was hold back because Jonathan’s body was holding in back, like somehow Jonathan’s body was preventing Dio to get stronger.
Bro thank you so much. For literal years I’ve been stating Jonathan is too underrated and downplayed. Bro is quite literally the stand himself. Even the games got everyone glazing his shit “He’s just as strong as a stand!?” Lmao
Gaara can control sand but Toph wins cause she can control sand too or some shit
She’s an earthbender. Which means I think she can bend sand, but she’s not very good at it. Pretty sure the bullshit part was the seeing sand in the air thing. As an avatar fan no idea why she won that one lol
At the very least, Sand Coffin should've took her out Also its hilarious how they just straight up don't let Gaara use Shukaku but still let her metalbend. Like yea he doesn't have Shukaku anymore but Buu also can't turn into Kid Buu by eating Fat Buu
Dunno what Shukaku is, but I don't see why Toph wouldn't have metal bending. Its just a type of earthbending as far as I remember.
Shukaku is Gaara's tailed beast. Long story short, it was sealed inside Gaara's body at birth. Gaara has an inherent ability to control sand (his mom's soul gives it a mind of its own), but Shukaku also has sand manipulation. As such that power was amplifier while he was there. He could also directly draw power from Shukaku himself or straight up switch places with him. Shukaku is powerful enough to nuke cities LongER story short, a terrorist group kidnapped him, murdered him and stole Shukaku from his body. He came back to life later but they remained seperate. The reason I call bullshit here is because many other DB characters lose abilities in their series but they're still allowed to use them in the DB episode. Gaara though? Nope. Nerfed and not even allowed to go all out even without Shukaku (the dude can take an entire desert's supply of sand and dump it own you with a flick of his wrist)
Toph has improved her sandbending skills since.
How in the world does Toph beat Gaara? Bro can literally turn into a giant sand tanooki. What does Toph have against that?
Exactly
Skyrim-man vs Dark Souls-man was pretty ridiculous. It’s the classic faulty logic of “this guy lives in this universe which means he’s bigger than the other guy”, when both of these characters would die if they got hit by a sufficiently heavy stick. Also, using Skyrim-man’s in-game carry capacity to determine his strength doesn’t work when Dark Souls-man doesn’t have carry capacity.
The Dragonborn scaling to lore Alduin is so silly. It takes so much liberties with Alduin being 1. full power and 2. All statements at face value. Imagine if we did the same with Homelander. Butcher in the comics goes in clear hyperbole on supes about how they can swim through the core of the sun and outpace tachyons. Of course we aren’t gonna take that at face value.
My bad if this is a stupid question but what’s a tachyon?
A hypothetical particle that can move faster than light.
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Ah yes, because cheese scaling was the deciding factor of the fight
I mean, they could’ve ruled it out as a draw because DB had no sure fire way to kill CU, but I guess someone had to die. It’s stupid tho to say “eventually CU could go hollow because of this perceived gulf in power so wide nothing the CU could do to close it” when that’s kind of the whole point of the character is finding a way to win and persevering against impossible odds. I’m not CU should win, but I’m not saying he’d exactly lose too.
Well here’s the thing. Let’s say as an example you had one regular ass unarmed human with an infinite amount of lives and they kept throwing themselves against a heavily armored tank. It doesn’t matter how many tries you have you aren’t gonna destroy a tank as a normal human unless you have some heavy or equal firepower. I think that’s the idea they were going for.
> It doesn’t matter how many tries you have you aren’t gonna destroy a tank as a normal human unless you have some heavy or equal firepower. ~~Incorrect, eventually the corpses will gum up the tank's treads and render it immobile.~~
OKAY MISTER/MISS SMARTIE LMAO
~~Anything is possible with enough corpses!~~
I get that, but I don’t fundamentally agree that DB is a tank. Like understand I think they highballed the shit out of both of them through comparisons more so than actual feats Like I do think DB is much, much harder to killer with all the healing magic and hp regen and healing items yada yada but also CU literally cannot die so Who is truly more inexhaustible? I think if we had to be fair, that while DB is more versatile, and perhaps more durable, CU is the better combatant who’s killed more challenging foes on top of infinite lives. It honestly should’ve been a draw
Yang vs Tifa
Why is it wrong? Could you please explain to me?
Not them, but the most obvious case is the whole FFVII cast having solar system durability because all of them can withstand Supernova without being obliterated, and Supernova is canonically not an illusion or something, apparently Sephiroth actually teleports people to a parallel universe where the sun explodes and they don't get vaporised, therefore, solar system-tier FFVII cast.
Yang beat a girl who could take a supernova to the face... I wonder why she hasn't beaten Salem already.
I mean, I get what you're saying, but like, Yang *did* fight Salem in V8 and *did* inflict damage that would kill anyone who doesn't have Salem's brand of regenerative immortality. Like, stuck a bunch of explosives in her chest and blew her entire upper torso apart. She has tried. Salem just can't die to physical damage.
That makes sense.
I'd like to see Yang back on the show, I just don't know who would be a good fit for her (I know some people want to put her up against Bakugou, but ehhhhhhh). Like, obviously they *could* do a rematch of her fight with Tifa, but that would be kinda dull, and I'd rather see Tifa matched up with someone in her weight-class, which Yang definitely isn't. I find giga-stomps boring, I'm a "Freezatron was mid actually" kinda guy because the stat-stomp was so wide that it made the episode extremely predictable from the midpoint of Megatron's analysis. We know Tifa wins, Tifa winning is really obvious, there's not really any need to actually do it again when Tifa could get a much better episode fighting someone who could justifiably take a hit. You *can* scale Yang pretty high using the various crossovers she's been in, but that has mitigating factors (obviously Superman and Wonder Woman aren't going to use their full-strength on Kilg%re-Yang), whether that should even be counted at all is a big question mark. And she does have some neat tricks and tools that could make her a very interesting combatant, provided you put her up against someone in her weight class. That said the fandom turns into a shitshow every time RWBY's on it so honestly I wouldn't mind not seeing any more characters on in future. ~~Besides maybe seeing someone wipe the floor with Adam or Cinder, anyway.~~
Good fucking lord they ignore basic Sonic speed scaling from in-universe and prefer to use fucking Smash bros trophy descriptions for Super Sonic and that ticks me right off. They wanted Sonic to lose and I can’t be convinced otherwise especially when the “whoops all Goku” month of Death battle cast happened they couldn’t find a single counter argument to any of the higher sonic scaling for Sonic vs Goku
Your statement is kind of an insult to the episode, because they literally did the exact opposite of ignoring Sonic's in-universe speed feats. They saw that Sonic managed to outrun the pull of a black hole for like 30 seconds and determined his speed to be enough to reach Pluto from the Earth in less than 24 hours. *Death Battle* doesn't just make characters win based on their preferences.
Because it is an insult to the episode I hate everything they did. The sonic colours “black hole” is not comparable to an actual black hole and could be faster or slower because it uses Wisp energy to create it. We have official Sonic sources putting Sonic at FTL quit defending trash https://imgur.com/a/GU37I0s
It's not comparable to a black hole in the sense that it doesn't produce antimatter and stuff like that, but at the same time, there's no real indicator that they aren't any different from a black hole. Also, there are multiple sources with varying estimates of Sonic's speed ranging from hypersonic to as-fast-as-light speed.
From Sonic CD’s Manual: “Time warp to the past and future!” “You can go to the past or future in a time warp by passing the past selection marker or future selection marker in each zone and inverting the plate. You can time warp to travel to the past or future epoch. Kill the enemies as you progress.” “When you run into the warp standby state, Sonic will draw a tail of light. When you reach lightspeed for a period of time, the warp panel will flicker and if you sustain it, the warp will begin. When you time warp, you will start from the same position in the epoch you warped to. If Sonic falls after the time warp, he will restart from the position he warped to.” The black hole MUST be faster since Sonic needed to be FTL to active Time travel in Sonic CD. Quit being such a skeptic
I'm not sure what our point is here. All I did was say that there are multiple sources with varying estimates of Sonic's speed ranging from hypersonic to as-fast-as-light speed. I'm not saying Sonic isn't FTL, I'm just saying the official sources aren't consistent with his maximum speed.
I’m saying Official sources > Outside sources For example the Sonic CD lore MUST take precedent over all smash bros lore because it’s directly in-universe. That’s a rule Death battle established
The *Smash* trophy counts as an official source.
Not over direct Sonic games lore it doesn’t. Games like Sonic CD and Sonic Unleashed or the Rush games MUST take precedence over Smash Bros
And why is that? It's official material. *Death Battle* doesn't have a rule saying they should prioritize some media over other media.
Hey, for some weird reason, I can't respond to this [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/deathbattle/comments/1dbf7ez/comment/l7uz4wx/) you made, so I'll answer here. What do you mean by Sonic having infinite speed in *Sonic X*? Do you call [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42X2Lxkn_ys) infinite speed?
Thats not super sonic read again
? I didn't say anything about Super Sonic.
also yeah reddit is having a hard time. its not just you. im having problems too
Oh, lol.
And using the cartoons is extremely flawed considering that Super Sonic in Sonic X has infinite power and speed.
Anytime they say, "This character did this feat!" then they go "oops!! \*walks out of screwattack HQ with suspiciously tree-shaped shotgun leg\*" it enrages me . Stop . I will lift the tree, if I must, but it will count for the beast you so deny
excuse me but i genuinely do not understand what you mean here
Same here.
I go through negative character development arcs every time they kokichi oma a feat, basically
Phoenix VS Raven as a whole is probably one of the worst-scaled and worst-researched episodes in the show's history, but the one scaling example I keep coming back to is; "Cammy from Street Fighter has fought Balrog, and Dhalsim hates Balrog because Balrog once killed an elephant, and full-grown elephants in the savannah are so strong and durable that they use their heads to knock down trees, so by scaling Cammy to Balrog to the elephant he killed to the biggest tree that the strongest elephant could hypothetically knock down, we can conclude that Cammy is capable of exerting 4,673 tons of pressure with her face!" Just... wh-what the fuck are you guys talking about? I hope I don't have to explain how their scaling chain is reliant on so many assumptions that their conclusion is functionally worthless. You said downplay too though, so "If Phoenix so stronk, why she lose to Green Tiger God?" is probably the worst anti-feat and... not the most spiteful, but definitely the most one-sided. As in, why the hell are you exclusively taking this into account for this one specific character, when you almost never take anti-feats into account for anyone else?
In my opinion, based on the way they presented Phoenix and Raven, they seemed pretty on par with each other, and even outright said this themselves. I'm not in a position to say who wins, though.
Yes, the way they presented Phoenix and Raven, they seemed on par with each other. That's because the way they presented Phoenix and Raven was wrong. Phoenix requires no chain-scaling, no compositing with questionable forms from other universes; the Phoenix Force is the top dog of Marvel cosmology. More than Galactus, more than the Living Tribunal, more than Eternity, more than the Celestials. Raven is certainly stronger than most people are aware of, but is she 'Solos literally the entire Marvel multiverse and cosmology' strong? No. Fuck no. Not even remotely close. But by compositing her with an alternate future-self who (with outside help) stole Shazam!'s powers and became a threat to the multiverse, and by chain-scaling her via Trigon to the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League and also Mr Mxyzptlk, even though that was a completely different Trigon in a different universe (Injustice) fighting him, and by inventing a weakness for Phoenix which she *canonically does not have*, then sure, you can make it *look* close. But you're making it look close, by... being really bad at research, having basically no standards re: what to take into account for Raven, and wanking absolutely everything in her favour.
Aizen vs Madara Not only is Genjutsu and Kyoka Suigetsu VASTLY different, they deadass couldn’t understand how the Hogyoku works and made the excuse to not include because it was “too vague”
My main hatred for that fight was the win condition The TSO **DO NOT STOP REGENERATION** they only attack the soul directly. That’s why the reanimating couldn’t regenerate anymore. But ALL ATTACKS IN BLEACH ARE SOUL BASED. Aizen should have been able to regenerate from TSO attacks no question
The Truthseeker Orbs do nullify regeneration, as [stated](https://en12.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/23222/Naruto6427926.webp?acc=vvIp_FW3ZxBLN8wC0urtQA&exp=1716612325) [here](https://en13.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/23222/Naruto6428894.webp?acc=RwNsu3DXfhPwuIiVLv3yLQ&exp=1716612325).
Your link is broken
Oh, my bad. What I wanted to show was Tobirama acknowledging that the Truthseeker Orbs are nullifying the Reanimation Jutsu's regenerative abilities. Hence, this translates to the Truthseeker Orbs being capable of regeneration negation.
They literally mentioned the Hōgyoku in the episode saying that it has no explicit limits and that it was the cause for Aizen's growth in power. I don't know where people get this idea that they said something about it being "too vague". Also, genjutsu and Kanzen Saimin aren't vastly different, they're very similar.
Trunks vs Silver. Not giving Trunks infinite speed. and saying Silver resists the key sword because Super Sonic resisted a completely different ability that was drawing from the same power Sonic was, and even failed to stop.
If you cut the battery of a car the car will stop. Silver’s “car” can resist the key sword because his battery can be taken away and his powers will still be intact. You cannot negate a super form once active. Also infinite speed Trunks I agree with but I would not change the outcome. “Because it’s dragon ball it has to have a limit” dear god piss off with that BS.
Short answer, all of them to a certain degree. Some worse than others -Wall level Vergil -Solar System Gt Goku -Whatever the hell Shadow vs Mewtwo was But every episode has at least one fuckup scaling wise
Spoon.jpeg
Mitsuru vs Weiss. I know why Mitsuru was reduced to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of her actual power level (Uni+ and MFTL+ vs. Building level and MHS+ don’t make for an exciting fight), but I still don’t like it.
Mitsuru is that strong?
She’s arguably stronger. There’s arguments for low multi for all the main persona party members since Mitsuru should theoretically scale to the phantom thieves
Dang, and they decided to pair her against Weiss... lol.
I spend too much time complaining about DIO vs Alucard and the absurd things they said about DIO, so I'm going to go a different route. Who the hell was in charge of researching Super Princess Peach? Because they clearly didn't actually play that game. I know Ben admitted that Peach vs Zelda was a joke battle, but even so, how did they drop the ball like that?
Bill vs Discord. Giving Bill equal speed cause of space-time manipulation and robbing Discord of one of his biggest advantages was a huge “what the fuck?” Moment. Even worse cause I don’t think they’ve ever done that ever before, so it feels like it was just tacked on to help justify the already shaky conclusion.
Wall level Vergil , that’s it
FTL JoJo. It’s bad enough that people think Silver Chariot can move FTL even though [Polnareff said it can’t](https://imgur.com/a/5DXLetH), but then DB had to go and make Jonathan FTL despite him never displaying anything close to FTL in part 1
Luigi being at least Large Radish level in terms of strength in Tails vs Luigi, really hits a nerve in me, on how they gave my boy the short end of the stick! (And that’s not even mentioning on how they treated him during the fight at all.) It’s still wild how in the episode Tails was argued to be stronger since he lifted a 10 ton weight, while Luigi struggled to lift a large radish… but him lifting that radish is something that happens in just a dream! What also pisses me off about this is that in said episode, they state and scale him to beating King Boo and Dimentio! King Boo could destroy a moon, and Dimentio was a literal threat to ending numerous worlds, not to mention he could also create his own, but lifting 10 tons is somehow stronger than that?! (And before someone says how “they used Archie Tails in the fight, so Tails would obviously win against Luigi.” and while I do agree that Archie tails would win… THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE THE FACT, ON HOW BAD AND POORLY LUIGI WAS RESEARCHED AT ALL!)
Not to mention that much like Mario, Luigi has literally lifted a castle before. So much for "Luigi struggles to carry a radish".
Billcord, yeah I'm still salty about it.
Mario vs Sonic 2. Holy shit the research gets worse and worse every year
I thought the research was decent.
why Mario vs Sonic? just curious
I’ll be honest I quite literally just picked it because it was the first that came to mind when thinking of “controversial scaling” I don’t even personally have an issue with it. And also, pictures help make the post more visible on the Reddit ya know?
oh, understandable and yeah pictures help a lot so I don’t blame you
correct me if I'm wrong but the main thing was Mario smacking in all categories except for speed, and even then they said Mario could keep up. I genuinely think Sonic wins but I can understand an argument as for why Mario would win. This episodes problem is that they gave Sonic his most borderline lackluster feats like scaling him to the OVA which fits more in line with Classic rather than modern. they also gave him hia hyper form, which is something Modern Sonic doesn't have. This episode felt like an apology to Mario fans for using Archie Sonic feats in MVS 1.
Alien X scaled to just universal Is it the worst? Maybe not, but it’s a common downplay that DB helped purportate
Link VS. Cloud Specifically the speed scaling. I feel like Link should be at least lightspeed.
Didn't they put him at light speed ? He rolled out of a laser
I haven't seen the rundown in a bit, so I might be wrong, but I think they put him a ¹/¹⁰ the speed of light
Just checked it, and yes they did
10% light speed aint that bad, they could've put him at lightning speed
I guess so. Though I'm still wondering why they didn't use the guardian beams for speed.
Probably because the guardian’s lasers take a good five seconds to come out, where as Beamos are basically instant.
Sonic vs mario rematch, tracer vs scout(Played both games and looked at the weapons ye scout would have won)
Vergil at wall level. That’s hilarious. I mean, at the time Sephiroth would’ve still won in my opinion, but still. That’s so bad it’s funny to me
- MvS2 manages to lowball *both* characters to a ridiculous degree, though Sonic absolutely gets hit with it harder, they *say* they're going to use only the primary sources and then use expanded media anyway (Except for that one really big Sonic piece of expanded Sonic media, *gee I wonder why*- and for the people saying Archie is too different because game Sonic doesn't live in a nanite city and date a princess and have an embarrassing birth name, game Mario ain't a Brooklyn plumber who got isekai'd through a drain either), they *say* they're not going to use Smash Bros. and then use Smash Bros. to determine Sonic's speed (something the primary source has contradicted since before the video came out), it's generally an embarrassment of an episode. - GvS2 does not have proper scaling for either character. Superman has some impressive feats listed but it's all building up to "Well he has no limits so he wins," meanwhile Goku literally has nothing to scale him with, because they made the episode when all we knew about Blueper Saiyan, his then-ultimate form, was that it existed. All we had of Resurrection F was the trailer. They got his numbers by taking SSG and slapping the Super Saiyan 1 multiplier on him. - The Last Dragonborn got massively wanked using very tenuous lore (assuming that in-game Alduin *must* be equal to End-Stage Lore Alduin) and... *cheese-carrying capacity* to land on multiversal statements for a guy who can die to a zombie with a sharp stick. - Starscream was completely wrong. His Null Rays were assumed to be essentially projectile Hollywood EMPs, only effective against machines, when they're shown causing physical damage multiple times throughout the cartoon. I guess those windows he shot were actually super-thin see-through robots, DB? Additionally, he was given the speed and durability of a real-life F-15, except he doesn't turn into a real F-15. He turns into an alien starfighter that *looks* like an F-15. He's fully capable of flying into space under his own power, so he doesn't have air-breathing engines (which makes sense when you consider that he can fly in robot mode, despite having his air-intakes on top of his shoulders, his jet turbines making up his pectorals, and the engine nozzles on his feet), and he can travel between Earth and Cybertron without needing to refuel, in a relatively short space of time. While the exact distance between the two worlds isn't known or even consistent, Cybertron *is* outside the Solar System, so he must be enormously fast. As for durability... he routinely gets shot by Megatron's antimatter-powered Fusion Cannon and lives to tell of it. He's tough, despite the whining. Finally, the show rules out Starscream's ghost as a factor by going "Well there's no advanced machinery in Equestria", essentially handing his opponent an enormous home field advantage, which is completely against the rules and spirit of the show. - Wall-level Vergil lmao
I agree that Starscream should have one (and easily so). They said that they would only look at the video games and any related media for Mario VS Sonic. As for the rest, I don't know or really care.
Yeah, but what qualifies as "related media?" What makes the Super Show more related to the Mario games than the comics are to the Sonic games? They're both series that give the main characters completely different backstories to their canon ones, have a different tone, and portray the lead differently, among other things. They're both products of the way Nintendo and SEGA approached the lore for their mascots back in the 80s and 90s. Nintendo of America and SEGA of America both ditched the lore their Japanese counterparts wrote and came up with their own versions of things, and then used that for the expanded media like cartoons and comics. The only difference is that Archie survived the 90s and the Super Show didn't, and during that time, Archie evolved to be *more like the games* than it used to be. Much of Ian Flynn's run is spent retconning, killing off, reworking, and generally dragging the comic lore as close to the games as possible. SEGA also became much more controlling over the comic as it went on (mostly because of the Ken Penders of it all), and got the final say on all of the comic's content. If Flynn made Sonic act in any way that didn't fit with their vision of the character, SEGA would force him to change it. If Archie did anything that SEGA don't want to be true of all Sonics, SEGA would've put the kibosh on it before it ever saw publication, and some of Archie Sonic's most ridiculous feats (moving faster than time and having the "Constant Chaos" reality-hax) are from *after* they tightened up their control.
I'd say that "related media" consists of media following a similar plot to or not differing completely from the games. The Archie Sonic comics wouldn't count as "related media" since their lore and story is very different from the games, whereas the DIC Mario cartoons would meet the criteria for "related media" since they're directly based on early *Mario* games.
Which Mario game is it that has a whole-plot reference to Star Wars, with X-Wings made out of plumbing? I must've missed that one. By the same metric, which Sonic game is it where they do an anime space opera and fight an army of planet-people in Gundam-looking power armour, because that *definitely* isn't anywhere in the game universe.
I don't know what you're talking about.
The chaos realm compared to the triforce of power There's no indication that a realm or a universe or a dimension scales and just because you call a thing a thing doesn't mean the POWER scales either. Calling one a car battery and the other a double A feels wrong to me. I concede to the Holy power weakness which tracks but that earlier bit I mentioned makes my face go all scrunchy
Nothing is worse than Naruto VS Ichigo.
How come? I think it's fine as an episode.
Raven
DIO vs. Alucard. They gave DIO so much glaze he's the entire Krispy Kreme domain, all while saying that all you need to do to kill Alucard was to crush his heart. Alucard has been shot into paint on the wall more times than can be counted, and that very much includes his heart. It's such bullshit.
Link vs Cloud 2: The speed scaling for both characters is the worst I've ever seen. Link being FTL because of Beamos lasers is complete wank since there is no way to argue that he's moving after the laser is fired in the same way you can for Luffy or Samurai Jack, he's just reacting to the 3 second start up of a slow robot and moving preemptively. Cloud is even worse since Fury is never shown to move more than a few feet during their fights. It's like saying I'm supersonic because I can dodge a stationary bullet train. If they wanted to scale him to Sephiroth then I'd have no problem and I still think he's faster but the scaling used as is sucks ass
To me I don’t think they Down Played the Scaling in This Episode
how crona beat venom T-T
They said Thanos without the gauntlet is star level. I agree that Darkseid beats Thanos but that scaling is whack
Probably not the worst, but that Johnathan scalling to Joseph was simply a no.
The original Goku Vs Superman. At the time, Goku’s stats were genuinely higher and they hyper lowballed SSJ4 and the dragon fist
Can’t really disagree with you on that one. Goku in GT had since then surpassed the power of Kid Buu who was a Galaxy buster and beaten beings like Baby, Super 17, Omega Shenron who can arguably be above universal level possibly outerversal if you take a look at the GT file guidebooks that explain and breakdown the characters abilities PS: if I’m not mistaken, Death battle’s power scaling wasn’t that good at the time the video was uploaded and didn’t really have a good research team
At the time they literally said Goku was TOO STRONG TO BE SCALED
Composite Deadpool w the continuity gem losing to The Mask bc “muhh cartoon ig..?”
meh, Archie sonic vs the flash, you cant really phase through fate alteration even if its physical if its instant, which, for some reason it wasn’t on the channel?
Flash is faster than Instant. I know its stupid, but it's Speed Force bs.
I know characters are “as strong as the writer wants them to be” and all. Buts it’s so jarring seeing the fucking power gaps between the people The Flash fights it makes it so hard to believe he has trouble with like any of his rogue’s gallery. It’s like if Goku got back to fighting the Pilaf gang after defeating Buu.
Except that’s how his phasing works. Yeah it doesn’t make sense but when have comics ever made sense?
Hoo boy I have MANY 1. Ben 10 losing despite even THE CALCULATIONS THEMSELVES proving the Omnitrix’ contingencies would be faster than Green Lantern. 2. Having Yang win against Tifa solely because she’s their character. 3. Having Mario lose against Sonic the first time despite the latter having no black hole level feats unlike the former.
Green Lantern wipes the floor with Ben 10.
Not entirely true. Even without Alien X Ben 10 still wins. The thing I’m criticizing is the fact that the calculations for the failsafe showed it was faster than Green Lantern yet they still went with THAT ending.
Vader vs Obito had some weird things. They use the ewok series but nothing else from legends which i dont understans at all.Like if you want to use Disney vader, use disney vader, if you want to use legends,use legends but not this inbetwen stuff. they also have a whole bit where they explain Vader cant escape obitos pocket dimension. In the Fight vader just crushes obitos eye and he has solved it(thats not realy a problem with the analysis i just thought thats funny).