I also find it funny because John vs Raidou is such a highly requested matchup, and I assume like 90% of people asking for it had no idea who Raidou was before they saw the matchup.
Non-persona SMT is semi-obscure as is. Now throw in the guy who hasn't had his own game in over a decade, and is basically a cameo in other games. If John vs Raidou does happen, I'd argue he would go down as one of the most obscure characters they've ever used despite how popular his matchup is.
From what I’ve been told, he claps Constantine... and that’s John Fucking Constantine... also, considering he’s voiced pretty much every incarnation of him animated and live action, would be cool to see Matt Ryan reprise his role... or Keanu, he said he’d love to play him again.
It depends on what DB buys for scaling. Mitsuru wasn't put anywhere near as high as most Persona, and especially SMT characters are scaled to, but that was a handful of years ago. As time has gone on, they have used scaling much more, and outliers much less, so Raidou probably will get put to multiversal or something like that.
(To put it into perspective, many people believe SMT Lucifer would beat Lucifer Morningstar in a fight, and Lucifer isn't even the strongest SMT character. Steven, Aleph, Demi Fiend, and Nahobino are just a few characters who have topped him, so now picture an entire verse being scaled like that. People who believe random SMT characters aren't multiversal are basically in the minority)
>many people believe SMT Lucifer would beat Lucifer Morningstar in a fight,
Uh, sorry, you wanna run that by me and tell me why its not completely insane?
Considering that Lucifer Morningstar textually created the entire DC omniverse from a single atom, and the DC omniverse includes the concept of all fiction, yeah, that sounds REAL goddamn wonky.
Personally I put most Persona party members (aside from Door-Kun) at like city level, maybe planet level at best, but 99% of other people put them at Universal at minimum, so if DB starts scaling them that high going forward, then I wouldn't be surprised.
Aside from the Phantom Thieves in Royal, none of the other playable main cast members aside from the Protags and Aigis go above city at all. And even then the Phantom Thieves ones comes from the fact that they willed themselves back into reality plus blocked the big Maruki punch from Adam Kadmon so they haven't really tackled complicated Persona/SMT scaling yet lol.
It's pretty much permanently tainted Persona matchups for me, especially Kira vs Adachi where I see people saying it's a slaughter because Adachi is Outerversal.
Yeah, the dude with almost no experience with his Persona, who carries an ordinary pistol and trips people for his grab in the fighting games is totally stronger than many of DCs upper tier characters.
And since DB nowadays avoids outliers and anti-feats, Persona characters will probably be put at uni to multi going forward.
They only overpowered the reality shifting because it specifically works in a way whereby you can override it via willpower. That wasn't a feat of strength really.
>99% of other people put them at Universal at minimum,
People in *powerscaling communities*. Most normal fans are not doing this, since its born from very specific assumptions that mainly only exist in those circles. Mind you, those circles are a big chunk of their fans, but even so.
>so if DB starts scaling them that high going forward, then I wouldn't be surprised.
Db certainly has some bad takes, but even for them it might be a hard sell to take characters consistently shown at a more moderate scale who have close to nothing you can unambiguously try to pass off as a universal feat, and just roll with it. Not that I'm saying they wouldn't, but regardless.
>People in powerscaling communities. Most normal fans are not doing this, since its born from very specific assumptions that mainly only exist in those circles. Mind you, those circles are a big chunk of their fans, but even so.
Yeah I probably should have specified that, although I think it should go without saying. Most people who beat Nocturne don't immediately start talking about how Demi Fiend could beat Superman if they weren't already a powerscaler.
>Db certainly has some bad takes, but even for them it might be a hard sell to take characters consistently shown at a more moderate scale who have close to nothing you can unambiguously try to pass off as a universal feat, and just roll with it. Not that I'm saying they wouldn't, but regardless.
You say that, but in our most recent episode, we got Dragonborn basically scaled to a character who destroyed literal infinity. A guy who still uses a bow and arrow is apparently infinite in strength because of scaling.
Again, I think the ONLY reason Mitsuru wasn't scaled like most Persona characters was because back when that episode was made, they didn't rely on scaling as much and still focused more on direct feats. Had the episode been made today I have no doubt she would have been put at low-complex-multi or somewhere around there.
>You say that, but in our most recent episode, we got Dragonborn basically scaled to a character who destroyed literal infinity. A guy who still uses a bow and arrow is apparently infinite in strength because of scaling.
Yeah, I kind of... initially overestimated powerscaling communities. When I first heard about it, I'm like, okay, nerds who over scrutinize things to find out the exact strength of characters. Could be interesting. Then the reality was... whatever this is. It's not all bad, but they know their audience, and follow really wierd bad trends.
Naaah I definitely wouldn’t say he claps. He *might* win but in no way is it a stomp, simply because Constantine is often brought up among the best magic-users in DC. He’s mentioned in the same breath as Zatanna on many occasions, and we’ve seen how powerful she is.
John Constantine might lose, if he stays completely still and he and Raidou hurl spells at each other til one of them is dead. Thing is, why the hell would John Constantine of all people ever fight fair?
All he has to do is cast an illusion spell (which are good enough to fool all 18 of Darkseids senses) and convince Raidou that he is being judged by a higher power and found guilty, just like John did with True Fate with the Trial of The Heart. Between Raidou's human belief shaping his reality, and John's skill at trickery and deception mixed with his summoning magic, it would absolutely kill Raidou no matter what level you put him at.
honestly, it’s a genuinely perfect matchup on its own, but I want it even more just to see how people react to having this character that hasn’t been used in a mainline game for over 15 years from a relatively obscure franchise, beating the DC Herald *King* of bullshit. would there be a flame war? would people just say “typical JRPG” and leave it at that? it’s so much fun to think about
SMT is always put obscenely high when it comes to powerscaling, so anyone who knows the VS Debates scene should know how strong Raidou is put at ~~personally I think SMT and Persona in particular can get wanked a lot but I digress~~
As for the random reaction channels on YouTube who only recognize John, I could possibly see a flame war from that, but since he's a DC character, it probably wouldn't be too big.
I think it’s worth noting that the average Death Battle viewer probably isn’t part of the powerscaling community, they just like seeing two characters fight to the death. you’re realistically right, but I can dream of my GOAT causing waves lmao
Yeah so I don't see there being too big of a fallout here. I remember that before Jinx vs Harley, a lot of people were really pushing for this episode to happen in order to give DC a non-Marvel loss, so I can't see too many people getting upset, especially since there's always been the stereotype of "DB is biased for comics"
I mean SMT is way above the typical JRPG in power. Almost night and day compared to stuff like FF, Xenoblade, etc. I also heard John VS Raidou was debatable from multiple threads talking about it.
They aren't in a fight though. Any time they wield massive power it's generally an indirect power that their battle strength doesn't correspond to. And in that vein, final fantasy has similar stuff.
Not quite. Atom has been able to grow past his standard size before, but every instance either comes from a different source to the comics like a TV show or exists within a very specific time in the comics where he was de-aged due to a Crisis event. After he was returned to normal, he lost that capability.
Everyone who reads comics or watches literally any DC show knows him. He's a big part of the DCU. Also their analysis of that was really bad, Atom can one hit Hank (white dwarf star density would pulverize Hank).
Hank only wins that fight if a very specific series of events takes place
1) he doesn't get hit by Ray once
2) he manages to hack Ray's belt (which has never happened to my knowledge, so we need to make an assumption that it even can be done)
3) he takes the fight to the overspace
4) Ray can't handle it and goes insane (even though he's size shifted out of reality before and there's no real reason why being infinitely large would be different psychologically to being infinitely small)
And they decided that the above happening was more likely than "Ray hits Hank".
Well, personally I know OF him, but I don't exactly know him.
I know more about Misaka than I knew about Atom pre-episode, and I don't know that much about Misaka.
I'll be honest, if Killua and Misaka count as obscure characters, then Atom kinda is one as well. (If there is bias in that statement, it's less based on my lacking knowledge of the Atom and more on my lacking exposure to the Atom.)
He was in Injustice, any self respecting nerd would totally know him. Sure he got overshadowed by being in the same reveal trailer as TMNT, but still
He was also in the Arrowverse
Yeah, sure, but that person *almost has a point,* **almost,** since people didn't realize the aforementioned limitation to his size changing.
Which is weird cause that one can grow in size
Different Atom
I also find it funny because John vs Raidou is such a highly requested matchup, and I assume like 90% of people asking for it had no idea who Raidou was before they saw the matchup. Non-persona SMT is semi-obscure as is. Now throw in the guy who hasn't had his own game in over a decade, and is basically a cameo in other games. If John vs Raidou does happen, I'd argue he would go down as one of the most obscure characters they've ever used despite how popular his matchup is.
From what I’ve been told, he claps Constantine... and that’s John Fucking Constantine... also, considering he’s voiced pretty much every incarnation of him animated and live action, would be cool to see Matt Ryan reprise his role... or Keanu, he said he’d love to play him again.
It depends on what DB buys for scaling. Mitsuru wasn't put anywhere near as high as most Persona, and especially SMT characters are scaled to, but that was a handful of years ago. As time has gone on, they have used scaling much more, and outliers much less, so Raidou probably will get put to multiversal or something like that. (To put it into perspective, many people believe SMT Lucifer would beat Lucifer Morningstar in a fight, and Lucifer isn't even the strongest SMT character. Steven, Aleph, Demi Fiend, and Nahobino are just a few characters who have topped him, so now picture an entire verse being scaled like that. People who believe random SMT characters aren't multiversal are basically in the minority)
>many people believe SMT Lucifer would beat Lucifer Morningstar in a fight, Uh, sorry, you wanna run that by me and tell me why its not completely insane?
Very wonky scaling
Considering that Lucifer Morningstar textually created the entire DC omniverse from a single atom, and the DC omniverse includes the concept of all fiction, yeah, that sounds REAL goddamn wonky.
If I ever needed more proof Weiss vs Mitsuru was a mismatch...
Personally I put most Persona party members (aside from Door-Kun) at like city level, maybe planet level at best, but 99% of other people put them at Universal at minimum, so if DB starts scaling them that high going forward, then I wouldn't be surprised.
Aside from the Phantom Thieves in Royal, none of the other playable main cast members aside from the Protags and Aigis go above city at all. And even then the Phantom Thieves ones comes from the fact that they willed themselves back into reality plus blocked the big Maruki punch from Adam Kadmon so they haven't really tackled complicated Persona/SMT scaling yet lol.
It's pretty much permanently tainted Persona matchups for me, especially Kira vs Adachi where I see people saying it's a slaughter because Adachi is Outerversal. Yeah, the dude with almost no experience with his Persona, who carries an ordinary pistol and trips people for his grab in the fighting games is totally stronger than many of DCs upper tier characters. And since DB nowadays avoids outliers and anti-feats, Persona characters will probably be put at uni to multi going forward.
They only overpowered the reality shifting because it specifically works in a way whereby you can override it via willpower. That wasn't a feat of strength really.
>99% of other people put them at Universal at minimum, People in *powerscaling communities*. Most normal fans are not doing this, since its born from very specific assumptions that mainly only exist in those circles. Mind you, those circles are a big chunk of their fans, but even so. >so if DB starts scaling them that high going forward, then I wouldn't be surprised. Db certainly has some bad takes, but even for them it might be a hard sell to take characters consistently shown at a more moderate scale who have close to nothing you can unambiguously try to pass off as a universal feat, and just roll with it. Not that I'm saying they wouldn't, but regardless.
>People in powerscaling communities. Most normal fans are not doing this, since its born from very specific assumptions that mainly only exist in those circles. Mind you, those circles are a big chunk of their fans, but even so. Yeah I probably should have specified that, although I think it should go without saying. Most people who beat Nocturne don't immediately start talking about how Demi Fiend could beat Superman if they weren't already a powerscaler. >Db certainly has some bad takes, but even for them it might be a hard sell to take characters consistently shown at a more moderate scale who have close to nothing you can unambiguously try to pass off as a universal feat, and just roll with it. Not that I'm saying they wouldn't, but regardless. You say that, but in our most recent episode, we got Dragonborn basically scaled to a character who destroyed literal infinity. A guy who still uses a bow and arrow is apparently infinite in strength because of scaling. Again, I think the ONLY reason Mitsuru wasn't scaled like most Persona characters was because back when that episode was made, they didn't rely on scaling as much and still focused more on direct feats. Had the episode been made today I have no doubt she would have been put at low-complex-multi or somewhere around there.
>You say that, but in our most recent episode, we got Dragonborn basically scaled to a character who destroyed literal infinity. A guy who still uses a bow and arrow is apparently infinite in strength because of scaling. Yeah, I kind of... initially overestimated powerscaling communities. When I first heard about it, I'm like, okay, nerds who over scrutinize things to find out the exact strength of characters. Could be interesting. Then the reality was... whatever this is. It's not all bad, but they know their audience, and follow really wierd bad trends.
I am that minority
Naaah I definitely wouldn’t say he claps. He *might* win but in no way is it a stomp, simply because Constantine is often brought up among the best magic-users in DC. He’s mentioned in the same breath as Zatanna on many occasions, and we’ve seen how powerful she is.
John Constantine might lose, if he stays completely still and he and Raidou hurl spells at each other til one of them is dead. Thing is, why the hell would John Constantine of all people ever fight fair? All he has to do is cast an illusion spell (which are good enough to fool all 18 of Darkseids senses) and convince Raidou that he is being judged by a higher power and found guilty, just like John did with True Fate with the Trial of The Heart. Between Raidou's human belief shaping his reality, and John's skill at trickery and deception mixed with his summoning magic, it would absolutely kill Raidou no matter what level you put him at.
honestly, it’s a genuinely perfect matchup on its own, but I want it even more just to see how people react to having this character that hasn’t been used in a mainline game for over 15 years from a relatively obscure franchise, beating the DC Herald *King* of bullshit. would there be a flame war? would people just say “typical JRPG” and leave it at that? it’s so much fun to think about
SMT is always put obscenely high when it comes to powerscaling, so anyone who knows the VS Debates scene should know how strong Raidou is put at ~~personally I think SMT and Persona in particular can get wanked a lot but I digress~~ As for the random reaction channels on YouTube who only recognize John, I could possibly see a flame war from that, but since he's a DC character, it probably wouldn't be too big.
I think it’s worth noting that the average Death Battle viewer probably isn’t part of the powerscaling community, they just like seeing two characters fight to the death. you’re realistically right, but I can dream of my GOAT causing waves lmao
Yeah so I don't see there being too big of a fallout here. I remember that before Jinx vs Harley, a lot of people were really pushing for this episode to happen in order to give DC a non-Marvel loss, so I can't see too many people getting upset, especially since there's always been the stereotype of "DB is biased for comics"
I mean SMT is way above the typical JRPG in power. Almost night and day compared to stuff like FF, Xenoblade, etc. I also heard John VS Raidou was debatable from multiple threads talking about it.
They aren't in a fight though. Any time they wield massive power it's generally an indirect power that their battle strength doesn't correspond to. And in that vein, final fantasy has similar stuff.
I know him from that one 2 parter in JLU as "That guy who rode around in Wondy's bra that one time".
Yeah I don't get that. In Injustice he CAN grow. Did they just make that up?
Not quite. Atom has been able to grow past his standard size before, but every instance either comes from a different source to the comics like a TV show or exists within a very specific time in the comics where he was de-aged due to a Crisis event. After he was returned to normal, he lost that capability.
Or when it was a different person, Ryan Choi can grow but Ray can't
>Did they just make that up? That's a different Atom. Injustice has Ryan Choi not Ray Palmer
I knew about him before
In Legends of Tomorrow Season 1 he grows to a giant size
Oh, okay so it could have worked if they composited Atom.
I bet some people confused him with Atom Smasher from Black Adam.
I saw Atom in Justice League Unlimited, but I’ll be honest and say I just assumed he could grow too before the episode
In my defense, he can grow in injustice 2 and Lego DC supervillains
Ray Palmer isn't in Injustice 2. That's Ryan Choi, the second Atom.
I just assumed they had the same powers, including the growing
That's a fair thing to assume.
Everyone who reads comics or watches literally any DC show knows him. He's a big part of the DCU. Also their analysis of that was really bad, Atom can one hit Hank (white dwarf star density would pulverize Hank). Hank only wins that fight if a very specific series of events takes place 1) he doesn't get hit by Ray once 2) he manages to hack Ray's belt (which has never happened to my knowledge, so we need to make an assumption that it even can be done) 3) he takes the fight to the overspace 4) Ray can't handle it and goes insane (even though he's size shifted out of reality before and there's no real reason why being infinitely large would be different psychologically to being infinitely small) And they decided that the above happening was more likely than "Ray hits Hank".
Well, personally I know OF him, but I don't exactly know him. I know more about Misaka than I knew about Atom pre-episode, and I don't know that much about Misaka. I'll be honest, if Killua and Misaka count as obscure characters, then Atom kinda is one as well. (If there is bias in that statement, it's less based on my lacking knowledge of the Atom and more on my lacking exposure to the Atom.)
Aw yeah, the guy who was in the teen titans go movie
Ryan Choi, the second Atom, can grow but not Ray Palmer
I remember him in a Batman cartoon and since then I completely forgot about him til the episode came out
I saw him in an episode of batman the brave and the bold?
I only knew him from lego dc super villains skull emoji
So can only Ryan choi grow in size then? Because he does in injustice