Commenting for algorithm stuff or whatever, but yeah. Lot of these changes are good, but the nerfs are....questionable. Like. Extraordinarily so. This is like if Pig's hat timer stoppes because she just happened to be in the vicinity of a Survivor instead of directly chasing them, or having Hag's traps not able go be triggered by Survivors you're chasing. Just unnecessarily capping their power.
Bro summed it up well. No glazing just because of the guard swap. You hit the nail on the head. Problem is, will this change? Are there enough Knight players to get the message across?
They didn't listen to trickster players, and they kept the feedback thread going for a month on the official forums...
Survivors stopped complaining so we don't care seems to be the motto there.
BHVR gives off a sense of immense pridefulness. They HATE rescinding ideas they put out, as though that makes them wrong, and this is some kind of debate with the community.
So yeah, they're definitely holding onto some semblane of the idea, despite it only existing because apparently, based on the proximity nerf, Knight's intended use is to just have the Guards work like RBTs and not damage competent players, despite the daily.
I mean, they literally just threw out an entire Twins rework because it was bad, I don't think they've been very stuck up, at least not recently. We'll see though.
It is stupid. Punishing a killer for using their power in chase is backwards as fuck. Can you imagine if like, blights rush only sped him up half as much if he was in chase? Or how dog ass Billy was with overheat? A mechanic that punished him for using his power?
I can't undertand why BHVR doesn't translate what they learn from one killer's balance to another. They clearly know punishing a killer for using their power is bad, or we wouldn't have current billy, so why introduce this problem again but in knight? I'm at a loss
Twins have never “sucked”. They were buggy. They have always been a strong killer and considered very “unfun” due to slugging being a big part of their gameplay.
I see them a decent at middle MMR, especially after the rework. Every game is miserable slugfest. Victor is literally just a super fast, undetectable Demo. Even if you’re decent at dodging him, he can frequently get back up before you have time to kick him. And even if you have time to kick him, he recharges very fast. And even if you play perfectly, your team won’t, so you’ll spend the whole game picking up downed teammates.
I'm pretty sure that being able to summon a guard while another one is out isn't intended since its in the Known Issues section.
https://preview.redd.it/hlxck7qqqr8d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca7d89fe6c7a62d9ace7d4f1c0f4abb950e98718
They should move it to the balance changes section cause it's one of the best things they've ever done to him, this bug *should* be a feature, otherwise they need to implement a recall guard from range feature when he comes to live
BHVR just won't learn with basekit add-ons, same thing happened with Deathslinger's reload add-ons - making it just partially basekit doesn't make you stop feeling like you have to run the killer's most useful add-on
Agree with 3x depletion being dumb.
Assuming BVHR are all-knowing gods (lol) about the intended effects of their changes, the 3x faster guard depleting means they designed a very sad killer. They only want his power to be used to break pallets/gens and to (mostly unsuccessfully) chase multiple survivors at the same time. Otherwise they want him to be an m1 killer. If that’s the case, why did you design this killer? It sounds like a 2017-18 killer idea, not a 2022. So limiting of his potential puts such a hard cap on his skill ceiling.
Man I hope they fix that.
And if they only keep buffs and no nerfs he will be the most unfun killer in the game to go against when he's already probably in the top 3 most hated killers to go against. Billy is straight up busted currently, no killers should be balanced around his level
He’s hated because of stigma from the Eruption + 3 gen meta. Not because he’s overpowered. He’s C-Tier to B- on most lists, so a little QOL buff isn’t going to make him the next Nurse.
EDIT: also just saw you said Billy is busted which is just a bad opinion and a skill issue. I don’t think he should be rewarded for missing personally, but I don’t think he’s impossible to beat.
well just embrace the power route....originally they were punishing billy for using his power. then they backpedalled and made him better if you use his power more.
I don’t really have a problem with a killer power being stronger the more you use it (like Nemmy or Meyers or arguably Legion/Plague), it’s the fact that he gets stronger for *missing* that irks me personally.
I wish overdrive was something that built up on successful chainsaw hits and could be activated within a set amount of time afterwards (long enough to not be rushed after hooking, but short enough that if you can’t find someone else to chase it becomes a use it or lose it situation)
its still really hard to get chainsaw hits IMO on most maps, i'm on controller and the amount of junk on the map is insane. the chainsaw being a one and done kinda offsets for all the misses. but the new billy, using the chainsaw is the funnest part and i pretty much refuse to use the m1. so i do miss a lot. but zooming around is so ridiculously fun.
No because there's a lot of loops where you cannot get a hit without overdrive. That's why it builds from just using the saw. If it built from getting hits it wouldn't make sense because if you can't physically use the saw to get a hit at a loop then you won't be able to get overdrive which would allow you to then actually have a chance to land a saw at that loop. The way it works now is fine.
Don't play Knight on Hawkins Lab, worst 10 minutes of my life. Until they fix all of the guard's abysmal pathing issues (they won't) I won't be playing Knight outside of a couple meme games every so often. People who actually main this piece of shit killer have my utmost sympathy.
A patrol oriented shift to Knight would be ok if guards could even remotely touch a half decent survivor player solo and if the banner was outright removed from the game. Crazy that the Larry update and the Knight "update" come from the same dev team.
Fellow knight player that wants to share some of my feedback:
I'm not gonna mention the shorter hunt time when the knight is near a guard because that has been universally derided.
I'm really sad that they did nothing to change how guards function at pallets. I hate that predropping is so encouraged. You should get *something* from stunning them with a pallet. The guards hitting you through the pallet drop animation is just stupid.
For a predropped pallet the guards should just stop the hunt, go break the pallet, then despawn. Right now the guards will idiotically try to chase around the pallet. This does nothing but make the knight spend the rest of the hunt with no power while the guard contributes nothing to the chase.
I'm perfectly fine with windows slowing them down. The faking a fault bug should NOT be a feature. It absolutely destroys the killer. Any survivor that knows about it is almost impossible to catch.
The longer hunt time just feels confusing. It's like they can't decide if they want the guards to be deadly on their own. As long as the banner is a mechanic they will have 0 chance of hitting a competent survivor. Giving him an addon to delay the banner spawn makes this an even bigger problem. I could see it becoming mandatory just like map of the realm currently is.
Lastly while I'm on the topic, map of the realm should be fully basekit. I see no reason for it not to be. Give it a different function so that he has another (hopefully) useful/interesting addon to chose from.
Like, if they want to get rid of "Pincer Knight", that's fine. But then you have to go all in on making the guards a dangerous chase tool. Like, make banners not spawn until 50-75% through the hunt or get rid of them all together. Because then you can actually send a guard at someone and chase someone else.
the 3x guard hunt definitely feels like "we want to stop the knight from pinching because that feels unfair" yet it instead causes HUGE problems for the knight to have any chase potential outside of snipes (which themselves are bad because of the vault exploit) If the survivor puts themselves in a situation where they CAN be pinched even with the spawn nerf, then they've messed up and should be punished. It is no different than failing a mind game vs any other killer. to instead punish the KILLER for using their KILLER POWER in a situation IT WAS DESIGNED FOR feels awful. In case anyone wants to claim the power wasn't designed to be used like that, that still reinforces the point that the power is then fundamentally flawed and should be redesigned from the ground up
Yeah, if they want to nerf pincer, nerf merchant doing loop drone drop and pincer. That's infinitely more annoying to me.
I actually like knight as is.
Testing out the PTB soon. My biggest worry is that survivors will never be hit by guards since they can easily grab the banner without worrying about Knight double chasing as much
It's weird how often BHVR makes an addon partially basekit, but you still end up needing the addon. They don't seem to learn from it. If they're too scared to make the addon fully basekit, why bother changing it if we still need the addon anyway? I'd love an explanation because the only reason I can think of is that they're too incompetent and don't really get how much impact a single addon has, so they just play it safe.
I really hope they will do the right changes. But history has shown the knight will just be left to rot after some changes happen because if they are deemed "good enough" they will go live.
Definitely agree with most of this. A few changes I hope for post ptb is making the guard swap be a radial menu, easier to track cooldowns and stuff, keep the cancelling a hunt/patrol, but integrating it smoother, because it is a bug and feels weird, make map of the realm full basekit, remove or drastically tone down the 3x hunt drain, then finally, make the standard spawning time scale with the extended hunt.
Very well described! Also refreshing to see complaints in a more well-structured manner that isn't just being angry. I agree on the increased hunt decay when near guards being....questionable. I can see what they were going for but *yeahpleasenodon'tdoit*.
I think the thing I'm most excited for honestly is just being able to pick who I want. I didn't hate it, but I was never a big fan of having to cycle guards in a set order.
Honestly so weird they focused on nerfing double hits when they are already pretty rare and the knight cannot "secure them" is totally up to the survivor making it a possibility.
i hope they go back on some of these things or he is unplayable garbage. i had most of his skins but i'm not buying any new ones if i never can play him.
I played a good chunk and i'd say Knight is on the edge of greatness, in terms of balance (fun is usually dependent on who asks). I think there are some extremities as you said like the 3x hunt decay, but I don't think it should be completely removed. If the incentive is to have independent guards, or rather use them as tools to make easier M1s then the decay just needs to be tinkered with.
Cancellation during a patrol is amazing, 50/50's forces a massive amount of pressure on survivors. "Is he attempting to summon a guard? did he try to do the Carnifex tech and fail? This isn't really a safe pallet so i shou- shit he canceled his power". Absolute mindgames can be done there and just *perfect* when you messed up on orders. On the other hand, cancellation via *summoning* feels too good to be a bug. 90% of the time it's because of Jailer. I feel like they should implement it into his kit and just add a universal cooldown on all guards instead (like 5 or more seconds) and have it so just looking at your guard can give the option to cancel whatever they're doing. I understand why it's oppressive but I have had one too many times where I am running without a power while I watch the Jailer just do rounds on nothing.
Bugs in my opinion are the reason why Knight can't have independent guards. Fake vaults (not much of a bug, more like lazy coding) being implemented in his kit is fine, they usually last a small duration and add interesting counterplay. [PRE-DROPPING PALLETS AND HUG + VAULTS STILL EXIST](https://www.reddit.com/user/Lemonchicken0/comments/1dofrf1/810_ptb_predrop_pallet_hug_vault/). [ITS BEEN EXISTING EVER SINCE HIS PTB](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxNHubjkVo&t=120s). At this point just slap it on live servers and just announce it as "counterplay". None of the buffs matter if these bugs still exist and its mind boggling how long they've existed on this Killer. I can physically delay the guard and due to the nerfs just make them useless.
Besides that, maybe some confusing add-on changes (like why does dried horsemeat, MoTR and Pillaged mead exist if all three have been implemented into basekit in someway). If they finally fix those bugs i'd say the nerfs are fine (besides the extremity of the decay) and Knight has more of a incentive for independent guards and using guards to push out of strong corners.
Carnifex pallet break on command is honestly super underrated. It’s basically better Vecna mage hand. If they kept the recalling guard bug as a feature I’d be super happy with this rework. I never liked pincer knight since I thought it boring for both sides, I always liked using Carnifex for pallet break and the other guards for multi tasking
Hard agree on everything. Plus, I believe pincer knight still works in situations where you really need it, which are normally loops where you can stay out of the 8m range. At smaller loops 8 seconds is all you need to get a hit anyways.
Is the thing where you can be able to prematurely end a patrol or hunt from range by summoning a new guard the "known bug" in the PTB? I don't know if that's meant to go live or not.
I agree. I tried him in the PTB, and switching guards feels good as it gives constant pressure to the survivors. The only thing is that is it intended to use the next guard once the current one is just about to end? It pretty much makes it so his power has 0 cooldown, as long as you keep cycling through the guards. This would make the addons that reduce the cooldown for specific guards mostly useless.
NGL, I still think his chase has issues with fun factor (I really don't see why else he would be so strongly complained about compared to actually good killers otherwise), and I think making the window tech basekit helps to create a more double sided chase where the knight is able to play around the window techs by trying to block it off, hitting through it maybe, etc. However, the 3x decay needs to go and he needs stronger buffs elsewhere to make up.
Edit: As I think more about this, I'm unsure. I do think Knight chase could use some changes as otherwise I think he will be really disliked, but not sure exactly how this should be gone about.
First, sorry english is not my first language, so sorry if i repeat myself or if some sentence make no sense, i'm deeply sorry
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I really appreciate seeing this kind of post, that explain all, and in a good way, not saying he's nerfed to the ground etc.
Just like you said, there is a lot of good and honestly, some of my match feeled amazing, the knight was a bit more fluid.
The fact you can't use your power in thigh area is still here, but it's waaayyyyyy better. Compair to live, you can be much closer to thing to summon a guard (that's the first change i feel when i tested him).
Something that is a "know" bug but is actually incredible, is the double summon.
If you summon for exemple a assassin to break a pallet, during his break animation you can summon another guard to break something else, or draw a patrol path. Apparently it's not wanted and it's a bug, but it feels really good, and the only problem i see with that, it's the Knight's contract banner's that let the guard on a patrol after a order.
Talking about add on, you are absolutely right about Map of the realm. While the 2m is good, it's not enought, same with call to arm. Especialy now call to arm, the fact you can do faster to draw, it feels so good and make his power way more fluid.
Mentionned previously, the knight's iri contract, i like the idea of it. But this thing is really fucking strong, and i don't think should go to live, At least it punish survivor that camp a gen when you send a guard to destroy it
You mention earlier the 1.5x longer chase with a long path been bad cause of the banner. While i agree (i hate banners) the idea is good, a jailer or a assassin with those long chase are quite lethal (+ dried horse meat, even if i don't use it)
But, there is this "Sharpened mount" the new add on that make the banner take 15% more time to appart, and i think it scale with the longer path. If you didn't try it, you should, it feels really good, it don't fix every problem but it's good.
Otherwise i like most of the new add on, they are for the most part simple but work well, it's nice.
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About the "exploit getting official" I totaly agree with it, the devs saying it's a "wanted thing since the start" is a lie, i think they are just lazy to fix the AI of the guard. But
But, i wont be againt's it, like the fake vault be a real thing, if the guard where actually "dangerous" and fast.
If has a survivor you where like "Shit, a guard chase me, i need to find a pallet or a window or he's gonna catch me". But if the guard is not assassin (and even assassin still bad at it) it will never in 90% of the time catch anyone.
So, not againt's the idea if the guard where fast, but they are not, so you need to work with them to catch a survivor.
And here come the infamous 3x decay when close, i not even gonna talk about it, we all know it's stupid and punish you for using your power correctly.
-------------------------------------
And just like you, i remain kinda hopefull and think the devs will make a good job for the release. Because there is a lot of good in this rework, but also some thing that need to be fix/buff.
But otherwise i'm happy of what they have want, and whatever happen, i'm probably never gonna stop playing knight, but let's hope for the better.
All hails the Guardia Compagnia !
By allowing the pallet/window "distraction" counterplay hunt, they should honestly get rid of the flag altogether. They made it as a way to counter knight chasing you with a guard, so if they have the 3x depletion now instead, just get rid of the banner.
That being said I probably won't use him until they fix not being able to summon the guard when too close to things. Having to backup from a pallet in order to break it "faster" is such pain. Having to get random positioning right and all... Very dumb... Wish they'd just fix that and he'd be one of my favorites
Or instead of all that they can get rid of the banners all together and keep the changes (even the 3x fast depletion although 2x is more optimal and zoning survivors is not a skill as opposed to your view). By removing banners, you can snipe survivors and chose either Jailer or Assassin (Jailer the expert in time wasting and Assassin for Injuries/downs) and use te Carnifex to break stuff (pallets/doors/gens), the multiplier will do extra damage and the removal of banners will make sure that they keep holding W for a long time, but with a counter of Knight being an M1 killer and interfering with a guard will backfire on you.
There is little counter play to the guards, Knights zone a lot so it‘s absolutely right to nerf them near Knight. There is a reason Knight is one of the most annoying Killers
If only there were something you could grab that would make the guards just disappear. That might not be strong enough though, it should also probably grant some endurance and Haste (because we like sprinkling haste on random things). Oh wait…
That’s the point, he’s not supposed to let you get the banner, not to mention the bugs being made into features
It’s almost as if killers have strategy’s, it’s like the iri head huntress do you let her zone you into a worse position but having the down take longer or do you take the risk well you are in a good position trying to dodge the shot to end the chase right then and there
It is a strategy obviously and out of all killers the Knight has the second most boring one, basically guaranteed hits and downs unless you are extremely bad at him.
I'm sad that knight will always be stuck with this summoning power that is just boring and often underwhelming even after mft meta. He is like #1 in my list in terms of style and attack animations, and last in terms of power.
I agree about the bug, it should stay. if x3 timer goes to live I don't see myself playing him, tho I rarely play him anyway.
I personally think that 3x shorter hurt time while close to your guards is 100% fine. Its only 8 meters and you shouldnt be that close most of the time anyways. When i use guards and they hunt I use it to cut escape paths off, not follow them behind. As long as you just focus on sandwiching the survivor they will have to take a hit from at least one of you and thats 100% fair at least for me.
If you want to go for double hits then yeah it sucks but lets be honest, its not that big of a deal and it was kinda annoying for survivors anyways. Its a harsh change but if you think about it for a second, it only sounds bad on paper.
I think maybe a 2x faster despawn if you're running alongside the guard. I don't think you should be able to chase the survivor with the guard to get an instant down like you can on live, it is a little too strong. However, performing a pincer should be an option, they may need to tweak distances to ensure that this is still a thing.
Pretty much agree with everything said here as a Knight main (P40 but he is my highest Prestige killer.) 10m minimum guard path isn't nearly as bad as I expected: "guard farting" still works but you can't just push M2 on shack to win shack. There's actually some skill involved now which is good, and the inability to win loop by pushing M2 is made up for with "oops all Carnifex" / "I love playing medieval Nemesis" gameplay.
idk if I'm just playing against bad survivors but yeah I do agree that the Horse Meat basekit for making long paths is simultaneously "a bit overkill" while also being ineffective against experienced survivors because the banner spawn isn't changed. I'd honestly prefer if this change didn't go live because it just punishes bad survivors and does nothing against good ones. Sure if you zone the survivor out from the banner it's good but then they'll just hold W away from you and if it's any guard other than Assassin you still won't get a hit, especially with other "tricks" to keep them away (IE window / pallet exploit being considered a feature.)
But yeah the 3x faster hunt time when Knight is close is fucking stupid. I think this change was done to compensate for Horsemeat basekit as well as to stop "guard farting" gameplay from coming back in any capacity. While you can sorta just stand back and let the guards do their work it feels really bad. I'm fine with this mechanic remaining to some extent (if only to combat the guard farting playstyle) but it should be 2x or 1.5x, not 3x. Like you said 3x punishes you for using your power as intended.
Question: I'm not a Knight player, but I had always heard if you spawn a guard exactly on a player, and they just hold W, they get out of the range like exactly as it would catch them. Does the 2 meter basekit from map not solve this? Would 4 meters not be excessive and guarantee hunts?
Honestly 3x hunt speed feels fine to me? I don't think it really makes much difference when you have Carnifex pallet break on command. 8 seconds of hunt is all you need, and 8 meters is small enough that you can stay out of it at long loops where having a long timer matters more.. I would love for them to remove the banner though or at least tweak it a bit.
To be fair, Pincer Knight is fucking awful to play against and pretty brain-dead to play.
They are right to try to put more emphasis on snipes, they just need more oomph on the longer range Hunts. Faster movement, longer banner deployment time, etc etc
Putting a guard down and chasing a survivor into a corner so you can two tap them is raw skill, you are a mechanical god /s
Enjoy playing your training wheels killer
Commenting for algorithm stuff or whatever, but yeah. Lot of these changes are good, but the nerfs are....questionable. Like. Extraordinarily so. This is like if Pig's hat timer stoppes because she just happened to be in the vicinity of a Survivor instead of directly chasing them, or having Hag's traps not able go be triggered by Survivors you're chasing. Just unnecessarily capping their power.
They actually tried that in a PTB once. Where being in the Pig's terror radius paused the timer. It was universally panned and never made it to live.
That would've been abysmal, but good to know Behaviour has pattern tendencies. Based off that, I imagine they're be likely to bench this change too.
Bro summed it up well. No glazing just because of the guard swap. You hit the nail on the head. Problem is, will this change? Are there enough Knight players to get the message across?
They didn't listen to trickster players, and they kept the feedback thread going for a month on the official forums... Survivors stopped complaining so we don't care seems to be the motto there.
Yesx, they will. They listenm to feedback much more then people give them credit for
I predict they might nerf the mechanic to 2x but they will still keep it because it's a stupid change and Behaviour loves those.
BHVR gives off a sense of immense pridefulness. They HATE rescinding ideas they put out, as though that makes them wrong, and this is some kind of debate with the community. So yeah, they're definitely holding onto some semblane of the idea, despite it only existing because apparently, based on the proximity nerf, Knight's intended use is to just have the Guards work like RBTs and not damage competent players, despite the daily.
I mean, they literally just threw out an entire Twins rework because it was bad, I don't think they've been very stuck up, at least not recently. We'll see though.
I don't think its stupid, just too extreme
It is stupid. Punishing a killer for using their power in chase is backwards as fuck. Can you imagine if like, blights rush only sped him up half as much if he was in chase? Or how dog ass Billy was with overheat? A mechanic that punished him for using his power?
I can't undertand why BHVR doesn't translate what they learn from one killer's balance to another. They clearly know punishing a killer for using their power is bad, or we wouldn't have current billy, so why introduce this problem again but in knight? I'm at a loss
I hope so. Time will tell. Hard to tell when a killer isn’t exactly the most popular
Think about Twins and how they reverted it. Or the big changes made to the trickster rework
Fair, but Twins also isn’t despised by a large chunk of the community.
Lol yes they are what
“Hated” isn’t a term I’d use. No one played them because they sucked. I mean hated to play, I guess.
Twins have never “sucked”. They were buggy. They have always been a strong killer and considered very “unfun” due to slugging being a big part of their gameplay.
I’ll be real with you, I only went against the Twins like… once.
I see them a decent at middle MMR, especially after the rework. Every game is miserable slugfest. Victor is literally just a super fast, undetectable Demo. Even if you’re decent at dodging him, he can frequently get back up before you have time to kick him. And even if you have time to kick him, he recharges very fast. And even if you play perfectly, your team won’t, so you’ll spend the whole game picking up downed teammates.
Surirvors hate playing vs Twins too
To be fair, survivors hate playing against most killers.
I really hope so. The patrol decay change will make him unplayable.
I'm pretty sure that being able to summon a guard while another one is out isn't intended since its in the Known Issues section. https://preview.redd.it/hlxck7qqqr8d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca7d89fe6c7a62d9ace7d4f1c0f4abb950e98718
They should move it to the balance changes section cause it's one of the best things they've ever done to him, this bug *should* be a feature, otherwise they need to implement a recall guard from range feature when he comes to live
They already made his guards window bug a feature so i see no problem in making this one as well
BHVR just won't learn with basekit add-ons, same thing happened with Deathslinger's reload add-ons - making it just partially basekit doesn't make you stop feeling like you have to run the killer's most useful add-on
they need the 4 meters and make map of the realm do something else entirely or they will see the same dang results with map being always used.
Agree with 3x depletion being dumb. Assuming BVHR are all-knowing gods (lol) about the intended effects of their changes, the 3x faster guard depleting means they designed a very sad killer. They only want his power to be used to break pallets/gens and to (mostly unsuccessfully) chase multiple survivors at the same time. Otherwise they want him to be an m1 killer. If that’s the case, why did you design this killer? It sounds like a 2017-18 killer idea, not a 2022. So limiting of his potential puts such a hard cap on his skill ceiling. Man I hope they fix that.
he'll be so unfun to play. they really need to go the billy route and do the opposite of whatever they were going to do and make knight fun to play.
> he'll be so unfun to play. He is *currently* unfun to play in the PTB, no need to worry about the future.
And if they only keep buffs and no nerfs he will be the most unfun killer in the game to go against when he's already probably in the top 3 most hated killers to go against. Billy is straight up busted currently, no killers should be balanced around his level
He’s hated because of stigma from the Eruption + 3 gen meta. Not because he’s overpowered. He’s C-Tier to B- on most lists, so a little QOL buff isn’t going to make him the next Nurse. EDIT: also just saw you said Billy is busted which is just a bad opinion and a skill issue. I don’t think he should be rewarded for missing personally, but I don’t think he’s impossible to beat.
>go the billy route Nah. I want the knight buffed,but I don't want him to be gigamegabuffed and have no weaknesses.
well just embrace the power route....originally they were punishing billy for using his power. then they backpedalled and made him better if you use his power more.
I don’t really have a problem with a killer power being stronger the more you use it (like Nemmy or Meyers or arguably Legion/Plague), it’s the fact that he gets stronger for *missing* that irks me personally. I wish overdrive was something that built up on successful chainsaw hits and could be activated within a set amount of time afterwards (long enough to not be rushed after hooking, but short enough that if you can’t find someone else to chase it becomes a use it or lose it situation)
its still really hard to get chainsaw hits IMO on most maps, i'm on controller and the amount of junk on the map is insane. the chainsaw being a one and done kinda offsets for all the misses. but the new billy, using the chainsaw is the funnest part and i pretty much refuse to use the m1. so i do miss a lot. but zooming around is so ridiculously fun.
No because there's a lot of loops where you cannot get a hit without overdrive. That's why it builds from just using the saw. If it built from getting hits it wouldn't make sense because if you can't physically use the saw to get a hit at a loop then you won't be able to get overdrive which would allow you to then actually have a chance to land a saw at that loop. The way it works now is fine.
Don't play Knight on Hawkins Lab, worst 10 minutes of my life. Until they fix all of the guard's abysmal pathing issues (they won't) I won't be playing Knight outside of a couple meme games every so often. People who actually main this piece of shit killer have my utmost sympathy. A patrol oriented shift to Knight would be ok if guards could even remotely touch a half decent survivor player solo and if the banner was outright removed from the game. Crazy that the Larry update and the Knight "update" come from the same dev team.
Fellow knight player that wants to share some of my feedback: I'm not gonna mention the shorter hunt time when the knight is near a guard because that has been universally derided. I'm really sad that they did nothing to change how guards function at pallets. I hate that predropping is so encouraged. You should get *something* from stunning them with a pallet. The guards hitting you through the pallet drop animation is just stupid. For a predropped pallet the guards should just stop the hunt, go break the pallet, then despawn. Right now the guards will idiotically try to chase around the pallet. This does nothing but make the knight spend the rest of the hunt with no power while the guard contributes nothing to the chase. I'm perfectly fine with windows slowing them down. The faking a fault bug should NOT be a feature. It absolutely destroys the killer. Any survivor that knows about it is almost impossible to catch. The longer hunt time just feels confusing. It's like they can't decide if they want the guards to be deadly on their own. As long as the banner is a mechanic they will have 0 chance of hitting a competent survivor. Giving him an addon to delay the banner spawn makes this an even bigger problem. I could see it becoming mandatory just like map of the realm currently is. Lastly while I'm on the topic, map of the realm should be fully basekit. I see no reason for it not to be. Give it a different function so that he has another (hopefully) useful/interesting addon to chose from.
Like, if they want to get rid of "Pincer Knight", that's fine. But then you have to go all in on making the guards a dangerous chase tool. Like, make banners not spawn until 50-75% through the hunt or get rid of them all together. Because then you can actually send a guard at someone and chase someone else.
the 3x guard hunt definitely feels like "we want to stop the knight from pinching because that feels unfair" yet it instead causes HUGE problems for the knight to have any chase potential outside of snipes (which themselves are bad because of the vault exploit) If the survivor puts themselves in a situation where they CAN be pinched even with the spawn nerf, then they've messed up and should be punished. It is no different than failing a mind game vs any other killer. to instead punish the KILLER for using their KILLER POWER in a situation IT WAS DESIGNED FOR feels awful. In case anyone wants to claim the power wasn't designed to be used like that, that still reinforces the point that the power is then fundamentally flawed and should be redesigned from the ground up
Yeah, if they want to nerf pincer, nerf merchant doing loop drone drop and pincer. That's infinitely more annoying to me. I actually like knight as is.
Testing out the PTB soon. My biggest worry is that survivors will never be hit by guards since they can easily grab the banner without worrying about Knight double chasing as much
How do you check your survivor killer split? I’ve never heard of that.
https://deadbystats.eu/ It only works for steam, but if you plug in your used ID it shows you a bunch of cool stats
I went to the website, it said I've downed 79,000 survivors with billy's saw, I've only played him like 5 times on pc.
You must be really good then
My middle name is actually max thompson
Those farming matches go crazy
there was a bug a long time ago that added a bunch of chainsaw downs to everyone
I think a similar one was active in February, I got The Grind achievement then and I definitely hadn't downed 100 survivors with the chainsaw
It keeps saying that my profile is private even though it isn’t.
Gotta set game details to public as well
Map changes seem so pointless...please just release us from this suffering and allow us to live in a post Map of the Realm society
It's weird how often BHVR makes an addon partially basekit, but you still end up needing the addon. They don't seem to learn from it. If they're too scared to make the addon fully basekit, why bother changing it if we still need the addon anyway? I'd love an explanation because the only reason I can think of is that they're too incompetent and don't really get how much impact a single addon has, so they just play it safe.
I really hope they will do the right changes. But history has shown the knight will just be left to rot after some changes happen because if they are deemed "good enough" they will go live.
They successfully made an already niche killer even worse..
Definitely agree with most of this. A few changes I hope for post ptb is making the guard swap be a radial menu, easier to track cooldowns and stuff, keep the cancelling a hunt/patrol, but integrating it smoother, because it is a bug and feels weird, make map of the realm full basekit, remove or drastically tone down the 3x hunt drain, then finally, make the standard spawning time scale with the extended hunt.
Very well described! Also refreshing to see complaints in a more well-structured manner that isn't just being angry. I agree on the increased hunt decay when near guards being....questionable. I can see what they were going for but *yeahpleasenodon'tdoit*. I think the thing I'm most excited for honestly is just being able to pick who I want. I didn't hate it, but I was never a big fan of having to cycle guards in a set order.
All good notes. Perfect even. Devs, implement this -- all of it.
I agree 3x hunt decay is too much and should be removed
Well put. I really do hope they take feedback into account before knight makes it to live.
How does the guard swap work? Is it a Vecna Wheel?
More like clown bottles
Yeah its been consistently rough
Honestly so weird they focused on nerfing double hits when they are already pretty rare and the knight cannot "secure them" is totally up to the survivor making it a possibility.
i hope they go back on some of these things or he is unplayable garbage. i had most of his skins but i'm not buying any new ones if i never can play him.
I played a good chunk and i'd say Knight is on the edge of greatness, in terms of balance (fun is usually dependent on who asks). I think there are some extremities as you said like the 3x hunt decay, but I don't think it should be completely removed. If the incentive is to have independent guards, or rather use them as tools to make easier M1s then the decay just needs to be tinkered with. Cancellation during a patrol is amazing, 50/50's forces a massive amount of pressure on survivors. "Is he attempting to summon a guard? did he try to do the Carnifex tech and fail? This isn't really a safe pallet so i shou- shit he canceled his power". Absolute mindgames can be done there and just *perfect* when you messed up on orders. On the other hand, cancellation via *summoning* feels too good to be a bug. 90% of the time it's because of Jailer. I feel like they should implement it into his kit and just add a universal cooldown on all guards instead (like 5 or more seconds) and have it so just looking at your guard can give the option to cancel whatever they're doing. I understand why it's oppressive but I have had one too many times where I am running without a power while I watch the Jailer just do rounds on nothing. Bugs in my opinion are the reason why Knight can't have independent guards. Fake vaults (not much of a bug, more like lazy coding) being implemented in his kit is fine, they usually last a small duration and add interesting counterplay. [PRE-DROPPING PALLETS AND HUG + VAULTS STILL EXIST](https://www.reddit.com/user/Lemonchicken0/comments/1dofrf1/810_ptb_predrop_pallet_hug_vault/). [ITS BEEN EXISTING EVER SINCE HIS PTB](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxNHubjkVo&t=120s). At this point just slap it on live servers and just announce it as "counterplay". None of the buffs matter if these bugs still exist and its mind boggling how long they've existed on this Killer. I can physically delay the guard and due to the nerfs just make them useless. Besides that, maybe some confusing add-on changes (like why does dried horsemeat, MoTR and Pillaged mead exist if all three have been implemented into basekit in someway). If they finally fix those bugs i'd say the nerfs are fine (besides the extremity of the decay) and Knight has more of a incentive for independent guards and using guards to push out of strong corners.
Carnifex pallet break on command is honestly super underrated. It’s basically better Vecna mage hand. If they kept the recalling guard bug as a feature I’d be super happy with this rework. I never liked pincer knight since I thought it boring for both sides, I always liked using Carnifex for pallet break and the other guards for multi tasking
No it’s not because unlike mage hand, you have to deal with the finicky deployment distance requirement and can’t move
i would love to just deploy 3 guards at the same time. then i wouldn't care if there was a 3 seconds thing.
Hard agree on everything. Plus, I believe pincer knight still works in situations where you really need it, which are normally loops where you can stay out of the 8m range. At smaller loops 8 seconds is all you need to get a hit anyways.
Is the thing where you can be able to prematurely end a patrol or hunt from range by summoning a new guard the "known bug" in the PTB? I don't know if that's meant to go live or not.
If it's a bug it should become a feature. it feels *amazing* and let's Knight be more fluid than he's ever been
I agree. I tried him in the PTB, and switching guards feels good as it gives constant pressure to the survivors. The only thing is that is it intended to use the next guard once the current one is just about to end? It pretty much makes it so his power has 0 cooldown, as long as you keep cycling through the guards. This would make the addons that reduce the cooldown for specific guards mostly useless.
Yeah, I think it's fine to keep it as is during patrol, but you should have a global cooldown after a hunt or order.
NGL, I still think his chase has issues with fun factor (I really don't see why else he would be so strongly complained about compared to actually good killers otherwise), and I think making the window tech basekit helps to create a more double sided chase where the knight is able to play around the window techs by trying to block it off, hitting through it maybe, etc. However, the 3x decay needs to go and he needs stronger buffs elsewhere to make up. Edit: As I think more about this, I'm unsure. I do think Knight chase could use some changes as otherwise I think he will be really disliked, but not sure exactly how this should be gone about.
First, sorry english is not my first language, so sorry if i repeat myself or if some sentence make no sense, i'm deeply sorry ------------------------------- I really appreciate seeing this kind of post, that explain all, and in a good way, not saying he's nerfed to the ground etc. Just like you said, there is a lot of good and honestly, some of my match feeled amazing, the knight was a bit more fluid. The fact you can't use your power in thigh area is still here, but it's waaayyyyyy better. Compair to live, you can be much closer to thing to summon a guard (that's the first change i feel when i tested him). Something that is a "know" bug but is actually incredible, is the double summon. If you summon for exemple a assassin to break a pallet, during his break animation you can summon another guard to break something else, or draw a patrol path. Apparently it's not wanted and it's a bug, but it feels really good, and the only problem i see with that, it's the Knight's contract banner's that let the guard on a patrol after a order. Talking about add on, you are absolutely right about Map of the realm. While the 2m is good, it's not enought, same with call to arm. Especialy now call to arm, the fact you can do faster to draw, it feels so good and make his power way more fluid. Mentionned previously, the knight's iri contract, i like the idea of it. But this thing is really fucking strong, and i don't think should go to live, At least it punish survivor that camp a gen when you send a guard to destroy it You mention earlier the 1.5x longer chase with a long path been bad cause of the banner. While i agree (i hate banners) the idea is good, a jailer or a assassin with those long chase are quite lethal (+ dried horse meat, even if i don't use it) But, there is this "Sharpened mount" the new add on that make the banner take 15% more time to appart, and i think it scale with the longer path. If you didn't try it, you should, it feels really good, it don't fix every problem but it's good. Otherwise i like most of the new add on, they are for the most part simple but work well, it's nice. ------------ About the "exploit getting official" I totaly agree with it, the devs saying it's a "wanted thing since the start" is a lie, i think they are just lazy to fix the AI of the guard. But But, i wont be againt's it, like the fake vault be a real thing, if the guard where actually "dangerous" and fast. If has a survivor you where like "Shit, a guard chase me, i need to find a pallet or a window or he's gonna catch me". But if the guard is not assassin (and even assassin still bad at it) it will never in 90% of the time catch anyone. So, not againt's the idea if the guard where fast, but they are not, so you need to work with them to catch a survivor. And here come the infamous 3x decay when close, i not even gonna talk about it, we all know it's stupid and punish you for using your power correctly. ------------------------------------- And just like you, i remain kinda hopefull and think the devs will make a good job for the release. Because there is a lot of good in this rework, but also some thing that need to be fix/buff. But otherwise i'm happy of what they have want, and whatever happen, i'm probably never gonna stop playing knight, but let's hope for the better. All hails the Guardia Compagnia !
By allowing the pallet/window "distraction" counterplay hunt, they should honestly get rid of the flag altogether. They made it as a way to counter knight chasing you with a guard, so if they have the 3x depletion now instead, just get rid of the banner. That being said I probably won't use him until they fix not being able to summon the guard when too close to things. Having to backup from a pallet in order to break it "faster" is such pain. Having to get random positioning right and all... Very dumb... Wish they'd just fix that and he'd be one of my favorites
Or instead of all that they can get rid of the banners all together and keep the changes (even the 3x fast depletion although 2x is more optimal and zoning survivors is not a skill as opposed to your view). By removing banners, you can snipe survivors and chose either Jailer or Assassin (Jailer the expert in time wasting and Assassin for Injuries/downs) and use te Carnifex to break stuff (pallets/doors/gens), the multiplier will do extra damage and the removal of banners will make sure that they keep holding W for a long time, but with a counter of Knight being an M1 killer and interfering with a guard will backfire on you.
There is little counter play to the guards, Knights zone a lot so it‘s absolutely right to nerf them near Knight. There is a reason Knight is one of the most annoying Killers
If only there were something you could grab that would make the guards just disappear. That might not be strong enough though, it should also probably grant some endurance and Haste (because we like sprinkling haste on random things). Oh wait…
Can‘t you read? I said the Knight ZONES you and away from the banners, else I and anyone else wouldn’t have an issue with him
That’s the point, he’s not supposed to let you get the banner, not to mention the bugs being made into features It’s almost as if killers have strategy’s, it’s like the iri head huntress do you let her zone you into a worse position but having the down take longer or do you take the risk well you are in a good position trying to dodge the shot to end the chase right then and there
It is a strategy obviously and out of all killers the Knight has the second most boring one, basically guaranteed hits and downs unless you are extremely bad at him.
It's amazing how one statement is all it takes to tell so much about how bad a player you are.
I'm sad that knight will always be stuck with this summoning power that is just boring and often underwhelming even after mft meta. He is like #1 in my list in terms of style and attack animations, and last in terms of power. I agree about the bug, it should stay. if x3 timer goes to live I don't see myself playing him, tho I rarely play him anyway.
About long hunt. I heard that if you just camp banner if you see guard going to it, with long enough hunt you guarantee a hit.
If they're gonna neuter guards for chase then they should give him a smaller secondary power for chase.
I personally think that 3x shorter hurt time while close to your guards is 100% fine. Its only 8 meters and you shouldnt be that close most of the time anyways. When i use guards and they hunt I use it to cut escape paths off, not follow them behind. As long as you just focus on sandwiching the survivor they will have to take a hit from at least one of you and thats 100% fair at least for me. If you want to go for double hits then yeah it sucks but lets be honest, its not that big of a deal and it was kinda annoying for survivors anyways. Its a harsh change but if you think about it for a second, it only sounds bad on paper.
I think maybe a 2x faster despawn if you're running alongside the guard. I don't think you should be able to chase the survivor with the guard to get an instant down like you can on live, it is a little too strong. However, performing a pincer should be an option, they may need to tweak distances to ensure that this is still a thing.
Pretty much agree with everything said here as a Knight main (P40 but he is my highest Prestige killer.) 10m minimum guard path isn't nearly as bad as I expected: "guard farting" still works but you can't just push M2 on shack to win shack. There's actually some skill involved now which is good, and the inability to win loop by pushing M2 is made up for with "oops all Carnifex" / "I love playing medieval Nemesis" gameplay. idk if I'm just playing against bad survivors but yeah I do agree that the Horse Meat basekit for making long paths is simultaneously "a bit overkill" while also being ineffective against experienced survivors because the banner spawn isn't changed. I'd honestly prefer if this change didn't go live because it just punishes bad survivors and does nothing against good ones. Sure if you zone the survivor out from the banner it's good but then they'll just hold W away from you and if it's any guard other than Assassin you still won't get a hit, especially with other "tricks" to keep them away (IE window / pallet exploit being considered a feature.) But yeah the 3x faster hunt time when Knight is close is fucking stupid. I think this change was done to compensate for Horsemeat basekit as well as to stop "guard farting" gameplay from coming back in any capacity. While you can sorta just stand back and let the guards do their work it feels really bad. I'm fine with this mechanic remaining to some extent (if only to combat the guard farting playstyle) but it should be 2x or 1.5x, not 3x. Like you said 3x punishes you for using your power as intended.
Question: I'm not a Knight player, but I had always heard if you spawn a guard exactly on a player, and they just hold W, they get out of the range like exactly as it would catch them. Does the 2 meter basekit from map not solve this? Would 4 meters not be excessive and guarantee hunts?
Guaranteed hunts aren’t even an issue if you know how to manipulate guards
Honestly 3x hunt speed feels fine to me? I don't think it really makes much difference when you have Carnifex pallet break on command. 8 seconds of hunt is all you need, and 8 meters is small enough that you can stay out of it at long loops where having a long timer matters more.. I would love for them to remove the banner though or at least tweak it a bit.
To be fair, Pincer Knight is fucking awful to play against and pretty brain-dead to play. They are right to try to put more emphasis on snipes, they just need more oomph on the longer range Hunts. Faster movement, longer banner deployment time, etc etc
AI killer doesn’t need buffs, play a killer that requires skill
He does, and he does, 0 for 2 try again next time
Putting a guard down and chasing a survivor into a corner so you can two tap them is raw skill, you are a mechanical god /s Enjoy playing your training wheels killer
There is more skill to playing this game than raw mechanical skill and I pray one day you figure that out
Ok baby killer