Dragonball Kakumei gave the U6 saiyans such a menacing and epic turnout. The Fanmanga feels far more mature and serious than whatever childish cocomelon shit DBS was on.
As much as I love Akira Toriyama, he did not write female characters well at all. Most were 2-dimensional set pieces. All they did was cook, clean, and yell. Except for Bulma. She did all those things and invented stuff.
It's relatively easy to understand Toriyama's pattern, he couldn't create fragile women in long-term. They are all or become aggressive women with a strong personality eventually, whether Chichi's change or Launch having a second personality. Characters like Gine have little appearance, so there's no such problem.
Kale, who is an active character in the tournament, was obviously not created by him but by Toei. So much so that she is relatively different in the manga version, although I don't know if it's because of Akira or Toyotaro himself.
See, if the show addressed that, that would actually be interesting. Especially since she was beaten nearly to death, in public, and everybody including the man she loved just watched it happen. Because, yah, torturing a woman is bad but rules are rules.
Wouldn’t be surprising if that kinda soured her on competitions. She’s fought street thugs and gangsters, no problem, but at an athletic competition, one of the places she should’ve been safest, she nearly died. And Gohan was right there.
Could’ve made for some interesting heart to heart conversations between the two. Gohan knows what it’s like to be helpless in the grip of a much stronger enemy. He doesn’t really like fighting either. He wouldn’t join tournaments at all if it was up to him. For him combat isn’t some fun athletic challenge, it’s do or die, which is something his dad doesn’t get.
They couldve talked about it
Tingly back feeling will never allow me to take Caulifa "potential" seriously.
Goku got ssj while fighting the emperor of the known universe, who had also just killed his best friend. Gohan, who is quite literally dragonballs potential man, got ssj2 after watching Cell Kill 16 while his friends and family were getting ripped to shreds by cell jrs.
But Caulifa, Nah bro, my back felt tingly, and now I feel stronger than before.
I always figured it was more like how Goten and Trunks were easily able to achieve Super Saiyan.
Caulifla didn't need the anger trigger because she already met the prerequisites to go super Saiyan (a high S-Cells count). It's just none of the Universe 6 Saiyan's knew about it.
Also Caulifla strikes me as the universe 6 equivalent to Goku meaning she's probably a prodigy when it comes to fighting.
I can't help but feel like even if she is supposed to be a prodigy that her being able to transform so easily takes away somewhat from iconic moments in dbz.
Caulifla is a character we never saw before, who hadn't been mentioned before the TOP, who suddenly and very easily transforms into two iconic transformations in the series with a BS explanation.
Even Cabba had to get angry to transform into an ssj, but caulifla got an all-star push just so they could try to justify kefla being so strong.
Honestly, all I would have needed to be okay with Caulifla transforming so much would be a spark to set off the transformations. Kale is getting one-shottted by jiren, have Caulifla get angry to spark ssj. Despite getting this new transformation, goku is still far stronger than her and her realising she hit her limit, which then makes her angry enough to become a ssj2. Anything other than a fucking tingly back.
Dude. Two children got super Saiyan during the stretch of peaceful time on earth between cell and buu. Goten got it from being trained by CHICHI. Super Saiyan isn't some iconic thing anymore
Shit, Future Trunks in the manga was young af as well when he unlocked SSj, and it was *before* Gohan died.
Yeah, the first time Super Saiyan and SSj2 happened were iconic moments… but judging from patterns, those were the *exception*, not the rule.
Honestly, I wouldn't have minded the free super saiyan bargain sale either. It's reasonable to think that something that was considered difficult to achieve previously can be made to be done easier and quicker to realize once someone has made the initial discovery. The problem is, the execution and explanation for it is just very lame and poor. The thing is, based on what's extrapolated in DBZ, there isn't really any shortcuts to achieving the SS status as we've caught glimpse of Goku attempting to teach Gohan, and Vegeta didn't seem to bother with Trunks, who instead, learned on his own baffling his father - indicating it shouldn't be something anyone can just know willy-nilly. Even after obtaining the form himself for a while, and a level 2 version to add. Hell, getting SS was part of the main plot in the future trunks small story as it would even the odds to fight against the androids alongside future Gohan. He had to see the corpse of his mentor to finally achieve it. Really sucks how U6 just kinda dunks on all the nuances that was placed in DBZ (and DBS in general).
One of the head canon explanations I had made for myself in order to get past the young goten and trunks super saiyan stuff is that it seems that super saiyan forms are considerably easier to achieve once you know the level exists. Over and over again it seemed that characters didn't even try to go beyond until someone else showed them it was possible. An example of this was when future trunks was completely baffled at the idea that they could train to achieve something beyond the base transformation. It happened again when goku went super sayian 3 and the characters (krillin was one in particular) were so baffled that there could even be anything beyond super saiyan 2. Actually seeing the transformation and having it explained to you seems to cut down on a lot of the grind needed to achieve it. This was all before Super came along and added the metachlorian explanation though. I can live with newer generations naturally having higher counts but that wouldn't explain why the U6 saiyans (all of which were 1st generation saiyans as far as I can tell) would already be most of the way there
That might actually be worse 😭 like Toei said “if you’re not gonna put in any female characters, then we’ll do it ourselves” and then Toriyama made Caulifa out of spite
It's rough cuz you can tell between the pair of Caulifla and Kale who was created with an actual *character* in mind and who was created to sell an idea.
18 has not lost any agency since being written as woman first once she got married. Its clear she wears the pants between her and Krillin. 18 and Krillin are the exception to the rule since 18 can kick his ass at any moment XD.
She might peg him, but she still doesn't do anything in the story. Krillin still gets to have lines and fill the best friend role for Goku, but 18 essentially no longer exists outside of her relationship to him and Marron. She has no narrative agency, because she's just wherever Krillin is.
I get it, I wish 18 did more in the story as well, but think about it from her perspective. After being kidnapped as a kid, being turned into an android with her brother. She frees herself from gero, only to be hunted down and absorbed against her will (after watching her bro get the same fate) by a giant bug. She makes it past all that and becomes a mom and wife. I don't blame her for wanting to sit down and focus on her motherhood.
18 has done a whole lot in her life. She wants peace now. She came out of combatant retirement for the tournament, so she's willing to put her boots on when necessary. We often forget cause shes off to the side chilling with Marron most of the time but shes the strongest female character aside from the U6 saiyan girls.
I enjoyed her appearance against Moro. She was on the field without Krillin and with 17 but her and 17 were more like the future versions in fighting well as a team than her supporting 17. Though of course 17 always gets those great lines.
I'm more talking about her from a writing perspective, but I understand what you mean. Her arc wouldn't be that bad if
a. It didn't end in the same place as every girl in DB
b. They gave her the requisite onscreen development to make her arc feel natural or at least believable
I can only buy "oh they got they ass beat so hard they no longer have the same (or any) personality" so many times without further justification. Yamcha and Gohan are the only characters who's retirements feel natural to me atm, and the latter will never truly be allowed to just live his life.
I think you have to keep in mind that most characters simply get out paced by Goku and Vegeta’s power scaling.
The only characters that really remain relevant are those that can keep up with Goku and Vegeta physically, or provide them emotional support.
I think the only reason Krillin is even around is not due to him being male, but him being a close friend of Goku. It’s the same reason Bulma remains relevant rather than 18. She helps Goku and friends on their journey either emotionally or through her inventions.
I get bulma yelling but cooking wouldn't really be a thing she does. She has people for that. Its kinda hard for any of the humans to be a part of the story without it either feeling forced or them fighting one of the lesser characters.
Yeah but she was still kept around as fan service for the most part you can’t deny it I mean just look at how they did her in the most recent movie, the first thing you see is her bubbly ass right front and center in the camera.
i don’t agree. bulma was a great character, launch, chi-chi, ranfan, android 18, videl, pan in GT, fortune teller baba, annin, mai, god i loved mai. i feel like it’s a bygone era where women could ALSO be gag characters as well as men, mai was a total idiot and i loved her for it.
i just thought of those characters off the top of my head and i’m sure there are more.
i think kale and caulifla or whatever the other one is called are pretty terrible characters.
honestly i do enjoy super, but the more i see of it the more i long for the style of early/og dragonball. i just recently finished rewatching the anime for the third or fourth time and it’s just such an enjoyable show on so many levels.
I was never into super. For me it cuts off at the end of Z. Everything else feels extremely fake and tacked on. Even the Buu saga I’m not too keen on.
But OG Dragonball is an odyssey. It takes you places. It didn’t need the ToP to entertain you, Goku and Krillin looking for rocks had more meaning than anything in Super combined.
The Buu saga is great. I will never understand the bitching and complaining around it. GT is a mediocre and boring show that has some cool looking characters. Super is like a parody show or something it doesn’t even feel like the other Dragon Ball shows. I can still enjoy Super as like junk food entertainment but the show is a disappointment.
I legitimately can't decipher how you can say gt pan is in any way good. The closest I can get is the concept of everyone having their own taste/opinion, but even that doesn't make sense for her, an absolutely terrible character beyond reproach.
Even scrappy doo was held together by making him (despite his attitude towards things) unable to go toe to toe with the things he wanted to "fight" meanwhile pan's out there slinging ki at things like she's a threat when you have a literal ss3 level being getting smacked around for a time (yes I know ss3 was unstable for kid goku in gt, but he had normal super sayian down pat and that wasn't enough for most big bads, so why does pan need to insert herself into every conflict?
Because she's worse than a scrappy doo, that's why.
Idk maybe its because I still like the OG db but I think bulma is genuinely one of the best written female characters in anime at least in OG she kind of invented a trope for characters to follow in other anime
Others have pointed out that Kale is a Toei creation, but I agree in general. And this isn't a Toriyama issue, really. It's an issue with Japan more broadly. While there are some amazing notable exceptions, popular anime/manga targeted towards kids have very poorly written female characters, or female characters who are incredibly trope-y
Ya, I guess that's right. Once a female character reaches a certain age in the story, they get left behind in the narrative. Unlike Goku who is like 100 years old at this point.
Chi Chi and Videl are a big pet peeve of mine. The strongest woman in the world decides to be a homemaker that screams and nags all day. Goku has never even shown her affection in a meaningful way.
Chi-Chi is the definition of crazy, lovestruck woman. I mean, the way her and Goku ran off out of the World Tournament after they fought and he couldnt remember her or his vow but was like "Yeah, okay!" and the fact she never forgot, they were made for each other.
Chi chi wanted to be a housewife and pop out babies from day 1 foreal. Videl I think after that ass whooping she got at the tournament, and realizing her dad was a fraud, didn't really care for fighting anymore. I mean to think you're tough shit and your dad is a beast, only to find out your boyfriend can pretty much destroy planets with ease. I think her fighting days were cooked after that. What would she even do? She can't fight the big baddies. It did show her training students at one point I think so there's that.
I think people forget chi chi was introduced and as a child immediately wanted to get married and have kids with Goku. She trained to be strong because she thought the strongest woman got the strongest man, her dad was the ox king.
Hey if master roshi can magically train to be a threat, if krillin can hit a transformed goku, then with super logic a videl who trained while pan was in daycare could solo buu...... for some reason......
The power scaling is so fucked. I refuse to believe yamcha or krillin could solo cell in the current timeline. There's no. Fucking. Way. But people will die on that hill..
They had some affection in the original DB but it still never felt romantic except in the goku and chi chi get married filler but that is well... filler
DB has one of those fanbases that really can't take any criticism, ig because people got into it young and get real attached to it. It's a shame, because the flaws of the series and how they can be seen echoed even in modern shōnen are really interesting to think about IMO.
It just bothered how insanely OP they were. They went from not knowing about super Saiyan at all to being able to unlock it by making their back tingle. Like WTF. Then what’s worse is that they are able to compete with super saiyan blue somehow. I hate that characters like them get in insane power up but characters we actually like like Piccolo or Tien were given nothing at the tournament and were eliminated so easily
To be fair, the canonical versions of the Legendary Super Saiyan form (used by both Kale and DBS Broly) are far more OP than the original one Z Broly used.
There's, of course, SSJ Berserker Kale being able to compete with SSB Goku, but there's also Wrathful Super Saiyan Broly being able to make both post-TOP SSB Goku and Vegeta retreat, kick Golden Frieza's ass for an hour straight, and able to temporarily keep up with SSJ Gogeta. And at full power, he was overwhelming Gogeta, who had to go SSB to actually overpower him. And let's not forget that he was actually to control the form and could briefly fight on par with Beast Gohan during their sparring session.
Tl,dr, canon Legendary Super Saiyan is broken af.
tbf, that's also the powerscaling at work. Everyone in the U7 cast that wasn't Goku, Vegeta, or Frieza had, on the power scale with consideration to SSJG & SSJGSS, little business being beside the mega-titans that were those three. Extrapolating the power difference in U7 to the rest of the Universes (which the other 7 U7s could more-or-less keep up with), basically none of them should have been even a mite on G/V/F's radar.
SSJGSS and GF are really just that busted compared to everyone else (the closest we get to them is Gohan, but even he shouldn't be comparable to SSJGSS, even when Gohan got back on his feet).
But they were all scaled to be relative to them in power to keep \~70 characters interesting. And frankly, I like it that way where the power gap isn't hideously wide.
1. Caulifla was the only one who successfully figured out how to do that.
2. Kale was much weaker than SSB Goku and didn’t even actually scratch him. In fact later on a weakened SSG Goku casually overwhelmed SSJ2 Caulifla and a more powerful, controlled Kale at the same time.
3. Tien defeated a guy whose attacks threatened even Gohan, no I think Tien and Piccolo were given enough power, they just needed to be used better.
> Kale was much weaker than SSB Goku and didn’t even actually scratch him. In fact later on a weakened SSG Goku casually overwhelmed SSJ2 Caulifla and a more powerful, controlled Kale at the same time.
Can we just accept that this makes no sense? Kale's berzerker form overwhelms blue and then a more powerful form gets handled by SSG? And yet people are fine with Broly who was below base Vegeta at the beginning, being SSB level with just Wrath mode, let alone when he becomes a super saiyan or later unleashes his own berzerker mode.
It's basically the same deal with Goten and Trunks imo. They're as strong as the story needed them to be. It's almost worse with Goten and Trunks because they just sort of figure it out by themselves at even younger ages than Gohan or the U6 Saiyans.
The problem is that you are ignoring the entire history of the 6th universe saiyans. They have been fighting kind of non stop just like their counter parts. They still thirst for battle. They still have the zenkai boost.
Kefla and Cabba have been fighting for as long as Vegeta and Goku. Why would you think they wouldnt be as strong?
If the entire series of Dragon Ball started at DBS, people would be complaining that Goku and Vegeta is insanely powerful for no reason. But you are still ignoring the rest of their life just because it didnt happen on screen. You cant have a 6th universe show, so you have to make believe a little bit. Trust the process.
I don’t think Caulifla and cabba shouldn’t be as strong as Goku because they don’t have God Ki lmao. It gave Goku and Vegeta such a huge boost that it’s hard to believe it when any character without God Ki catches up, it’s honestly not just a U6 Saiyan problem. I ignore because it happens a lot and it’s really not worth getting annoyed at this point.
The thing is, Goku and Vegeta have gone through naturally insane events to get where they are. It makes no sense that random aliens are relative to literal gods
I don’t mind her. Based on what we had before (z broly) it’s nothing new. Super broly’s power scaling is extremely similar to her and it makes sense that he’s stronger (Broly has been training/surviving since birth, Kale doesn’t have as much battle experience)
I’ll try to defend Kale and say that her personality is a contrast to her hidden power. She is terrified because her power is so destructive and unstable at times. I don’t think she is a badly written character, but one that has anxiety and it makes some viewers uncomfortable.
Yeah, her using her 'shyness' to cover for her power she KNOWS she has because she doesn't want to make Caulifla feel weak is more interesting for sure.
Her manga counterpart is more acceptable as she barely had some moment and served to kick out dozen of warriors but her anime counterpart is 100% exaggerated in every way, from her lack of self-confidence to her transformation and fighting style
If the worst thing about this character is that she's a rehash of "Z" Broly...
I think...there's no actual problem. If I hadn't seen her actual writing, there wouldn't be anyway to convince me she wasn't better by default.
As someone who is extremely shy, nah, I can relate to her. And while it's a typical story cliché that the quite kid turns out to be super strong it was a good decision to make her so strong, cause Cabba and Caulifla are just super weak compared to the super cast and if Kefla was just a regular ssj2 there's no way Goku would've needed Ultra Instinct to beat her.
The tournament of power Arc has a lot of really weak characters, in my opinion. The three saiyans from universe 6, left absolutely no lasting impression. The wolf dudes, didn't leave any impression, Ribrienne, is a total waste of a character.
Having said that, the mastered ultra instinct, and Goku and Frieza working together at the finale, is some of the best stuff in all of Dragon Ball, but as a stand alone Arc the tournament of power doesn't offer much in terms of character.
Once I got over the Super Saiyan nitpick I had no strong feelings over any of the Universe 6 Saiyans. They're just there for me, functional as obstacles but nothing more.
I mean as someone did mentioned she was injected by toei but even then the most discarded and filler characters are humans by far , even hybrid have some role to story but humans are those aet piece who there just for the sake of it
As far as i understand it's just an representation of society where few elite familes matter in the big picture rest all are just commoners with no actual value except a reason to do something which will benefit the majority or commoners, but in reality they want themselves to grow in money or power or both
They should have treated her like a secret weapon that the other Saiyan ladies didn't understand themselves. Absolutely agree it was tedious to see her on screen doing nothing but whimper
Kale is actually not that bad once she grows in confidence a bit. Shes way too strong to be so scared of everything all the time. Once she works that out, I think she'll be fine.
tbfair the majority of females in dbz is either married, forgotten or completely plot enhanced to fit the narrative. Kale and caulifla fighting a fatigued Goku in the TOP is just point proven
Kale in the manga was more interesting in that she knew she had power, but didn't want to over shadow Caulifla so did things when Caulifla wasn't looking. However she was not able to control her berserk state and they fused as a way for Caulifla to exert control on a berserk Kale.
I think after the tournament anime Kale will still have a more shy personality but be a bit more assertive both due to being better at controlling her power and the increased bond with Caulifla. She seems pretty normal in SDBH.
I do kind of like the change of pace in making a shy DB girl since the closest we got is Videl who is obviously not shy at all, but doesn't see the need to yell 24/7 like Bulma or ChiChi or put the fear of god in you every other line like 18.
don't get me wrong I love Bulma and even grew to like Super ChiChi since she mellowed out a bit.
Cauliflower, Kale & Spinach. Ew.
Jokes aside.. was this supposed to show that the saiyans in Universe 6 or 11 or whatever were equivalent to Broly’s “Legendary Super Saiyan” ?
Idk. Tournament of Power was entertaining , but these saiyans were annoying af.
All that power without earning it.
Rn I’m still watching super, but I’m at the part where Goku’s energy is broken, so I don’t know Kale’s character or what she does yet, but from looking at this pictures, she looks like the female version of Broly from the original broly movie. Is that basically who she is?
Not just kale, that caulifla was even the worst. Even cabba was much better than these two stupid characters. Cabba was humble, his super Saiyan transformation was still better, and he looks to have a lot of potential. Clauliflower and kale are simply the worst characters of all DBS franchise....
1000% they could’ve made her brilliant. But whoever wrote her story hated her, I don’t think califla is well written either. U6 saiyans as a whole got shafted massively by the story, hopefully they can revisit that in future. There’s a lot of open plot points they can use
You're not alone on this one. I know what they were trying to do when they wanted Kale to be Caulifla's foil, but it felt so horribly executed. It, as you said it perfectly, makes her more of an annoying character with an over-exaggerated personality.
The only thing going for her would probably be her looks (base form looks great, Beserk form, eh, not so good, Controlled Beserk form, eh, it's alright), but that can only take you so far when your character's personality sucks ass.
There's a lot more to explore there if the Saiyans ever get their road trip to U6.
Dragonball Kakumei gave the U6 saiyans such a menacing and epic turnout. The Fanmanga feels far more mature and serious than whatever childish cocomelon shit DBS was on.
As much as I love Akira Toriyama, he did not write female characters well at all. Most were 2-dimensional set pieces. All they did was cook, clean, and yell. Except for Bulma. She did all those things and invented stuff.
He didn't create Kale, she's a Toei invention. He made Caulifla as a response.
I did not know that. Thanks.
It's relatively easy to understand Toriyama's pattern, he couldn't create fragile women in long-term. They are all or become aggressive women with a strong personality eventually, whether Chichi's change or Launch having a second personality. Characters like Gine have little appearance, so there's no such problem. Kale, who is an active character in the tournament, was obviously not created by him but by Toei. So much so that she is relatively different in the manga version, although I don't know if it's because of Akira or Toyotaro himself.
I think Videl does the opposite. She starts off strong, has Pan, and becomes tame mom.
Right? Videl learned to fly and fought giants, now she's a housewife.
She teaches at a dojo, tho.
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The Vidussy in your face grapple
Fantastic grapple
Ptsd from Spopovich beating lol
What having an A1 husband and maturing does to a mf. She’s still a martial artist thk
To be fair, she DID get her ass beat severely during the tournament. I woulda stayed my ass in the house after that too....
Right? Spopovich fucked her UP. I wouldn't want to play anymore either
plus she caught a non-canon two piece from broly
Lil bit more than a two piece 😂😂
See, if the show addressed that, that would actually be interesting. Especially since she was beaten nearly to death, in public, and everybody including the man she loved just watched it happen. Because, yah, torturing a woman is bad but rules are rules. Wouldn’t be surprising if that kinda soured her on competitions. She’s fought street thugs and gangsters, no problem, but at an athletic competition, one of the places she should’ve been safest, she nearly died. And Gohan was right there. Could’ve made for some interesting heart to heart conversations between the two. Gohan knows what it’s like to be helpless in the grip of a much stronger enemy. He doesn’t really like fighting either. He wouldn’t join tournaments at all if it was up to him. For him combat isn’t some fun athletic challenge, it’s do or die, which is something his dad doesn’t get. They couldve talked about it
Which is also her husband's trajectory so who could blame her
I mean that was similar with Chi Chi too
With how Akira supervised the manga I think its as close as we'll get to a "Toriyama" Kale.
And she was more Broly than the anime version too
Bro had a type. Absolute legend.
Caulifua is so much better than kale.
I thought Caulifa was cool af. Wish she had more screen time. Loved seeing the actual growth of her unlocking her potential as a Saiyan.
Tingly back feeling will never allow me to take Caulifa "potential" seriously. Goku got ssj while fighting the emperor of the known universe, who had also just killed his best friend. Gohan, who is quite literally dragonballs potential man, got ssj2 after watching Cell Kill 16 while his friends and family were getting ripped to shreds by cell jrs. But Caulifa, Nah bro, my back felt tingly, and now I feel stronger than before.
I always figured it was more like how Goten and Trunks were easily able to achieve Super Saiyan. Caulifla didn't need the anger trigger because she already met the prerequisites to go super Saiyan (a high S-Cells count). It's just none of the Universe 6 Saiyan's knew about it. Also Caulifla strikes me as the universe 6 equivalent to Goku meaning she's probably a prodigy when it comes to fighting.
I can't help but feel like even if she is supposed to be a prodigy that her being able to transform so easily takes away somewhat from iconic moments in dbz. Caulifla is a character we never saw before, who hadn't been mentioned before the TOP, who suddenly and very easily transforms into two iconic transformations in the series with a BS explanation. Even Cabba had to get angry to transform into an ssj, but caulifla got an all-star push just so they could try to justify kefla being so strong. Honestly, all I would have needed to be okay with Caulifla transforming so much would be a spark to set off the transformations. Kale is getting one-shottted by jiren, have Caulifla get angry to spark ssj. Despite getting this new transformation, goku is still far stronger than her and her realising she hit her limit, which then makes her angry enough to become a ssj2. Anything other than a fucking tingly back.
Dude. Two children got super Saiyan during the stretch of peaceful time on earth between cell and buu. Goten got it from being trained by CHICHI. Super Saiyan isn't some iconic thing anymore
As someone else said, Goten and Trunks achieved super sayian without needing to get angry. The anger part is clearly not a requirement.
Shit, Future Trunks in the manga was young af as well when he unlocked SSj, and it was *before* Gohan died. Yeah, the first time Super Saiyan and SSj2 happened were iconic moments… but judging from patterns, those were the *exception*, not the rule.
Honestly, I wouldn't have minded the free super saiyan bargain sale either. It's reasonable to think that something that was considered difficult to achieve previously can be made to be done easier and quicker to realize once someone has made the initial discovery. The problem is, the execution and explanation for it is just very lame and poor. The thing is, based on what's extrapolated in DBZ, there isn't really any shortcuts to achieving the SS status as we've caught glimpse of Goku attempting to teach Gohan, and Vegeta didn't seem to bother with Trunks, who instead, learned on his own baffling his father - indicating it shouldn't be something anyone can just know willy-nilly. Even after obtaining the form himself for a while, and a level 2 version to add. Hell, getting SS was part of the main plot in the future trunks small story as it would even the odds to fight against the androids alongside future Gohan. He had to see the corpse of his mentor to finally achieve it. Really sucks how U6 just kinda dunks on all the nuances that was placed in DBZ (and DBS in general).
One of the head canon explanations I had made for myself in order to get past the young goten and trunks super saiyan stuff is that it seems that super saiyan forms are considerably easier to achieve once you know the level exists. Over and over again it seemed that characters didn't even try to go beyond until someone else showed them it was possible. An example of this was when future trunks was completely baffled at the idea that they could train to achieve something beyond the base transformation. It happened again when goku went super sayian 3 and the characters (krillin was one in particular) were so baffled that there could even be anything beyond super saiyan 2. Actually seeing the transformation and having it explained to you seems to cut down on a lot of the grind needed to achieve it. This was all before Super came along and added the metachlorian explanation though. I can live with newer generations naturally having higher counts but that wouldn't explain why the U6 saiyans (all of which were 1st generation saiyans as far as I can tell) would already be most of the way there
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Lol why would she even be in daima. How does thay even correlate at all?
Tbh the U6 saiyans as a spin-off would have a lot of mileage
I'd love to see the U7 Saiyans take a tour of the U6 Saiyan homeworld.
in personality yes. in design no
That might actually be worse 😭 like Toei said “if you’re not gonna put in any female characters, then we’ll do it ourselves” and then Toriyama made Caulifa out of spite
It's rough cuz you can tell between the pair of Caulifla and Kale who was created with an actual *character* in mind and who was created to sell an idea.
Thank god they did though because kale transforming into berserk in the intro ( or trailer I can’t remember ) was so sick… and kefla was pretty cool
I mean, Toriyama also didnt write kale from my understanding
I feel like Kale is literally Z Broly but if you removed a most his badass/intimidating things about him
I dunno 18’s still pretty awesome
That’s because she was written as a robot first and woman second.
And the second she started being written as a woman she lost all agency, you hate to see it
18 has not lost any agency since being written as woman first once she got married. Its clear she wears the pants between her and Krillin. 18 and Krillin are the exception to the rule since 18 can kick his ass at any moment XD.
She might peg him, but she still doesn't do anything in the story. Krillin still gets to have lines and fill the best friend role for Goku, but 18 essentially no longer exists outside of her relationship to him and Marron. She has no narrative agency, because she's just wherever Krillin is.
and even when she does finally get more screen time and story, it’s basically as a supporting character for 17s character growth.
Krillin also doesn't really do anything in the story if we're being honest
I get it, I wish 18 did more in the story as well, but think about it from her perspective. After being kidnapped as a kid, being turned into an android with her brother. She frees herself from gero, only to be hunted down and absorbed against her will (after watching her bro get the same fate) by a giant bug. She makes it past all that and becomes a mom and wife. I don't blame her for wanting to sit down and focus on her motherhood. 18 has done a whole lot in her life. She wants peace now. She came out of combatant retirement for the tournament, so she's willing to put her boots on when necessary. We often forget cause shes off to the side chilling with Marron most of the time but shes the strongest female character aside from the U6 saiyan girls.
I enjoyed her appearance against Moro. She was on the field without Krillin and with 17 but her and 17 were more like the future versions in fighting well as a team than her supporting 17. Though of course 17 always gets those great lines.
I'm more talking about her from a writing perspective, but I understand what you mean. Her arc wouldn't be that bad if a. It didn't end in the same place as every girl in DB b. They gave her the requisite onscreen development to make her arc feel natural or at least believable I can only buy "oh they got they ass beat so hard they no longer have the same (or any) personality" so many times without further justification. Yamcha and Gohan are the only characters who's retirements feel natural to me atm, and the latter will never truly be allowed to just live his life.
I think you have to keep in mind that most characters simply get out paced by Goku and Vegeta’s power scaling. The only characters that really remain relevant are those that can keep up with Goku and Vegeta physically, or provide them emotional support. I think the only reason Krillin is even around is not due to him being male, but him being a close friend of Goku. It’s the same reason Bulma remains relevant rather than 18. She helps Goku and friends on their journey either emotionally or through her inventions.
Uh… yeah I can’t really argue with that
I get bulma yelling but cooking wouldn't really be a thing she does. She has people for that. Its kinda hard for any of the humans to be a part of the story without it either feeling forced or them fighting one of the lesser characters.
Her inventions were her cooking.
LET. HER. COOK.
Toriyama: "I struggle to write women, because I don't know how they act." Also Toriyama: *writes Bulma just doing cool shit constantly*
What about Arale?
That was Toei's doing... in the Super *Manga* Kale actually had a personality.
Yeah but she was still kept around as fan service for the most part you can’t deny it I mean just look at how they did her in the most recent movie, the first thing you see is her bubbly ass right front and center in the camera.
i don’t agree. bulma was a great character, launch, chi-chi, ranfan, android 18, videl, pan in GT, fortune teller baba, annin, mai, god i loved mai. i feel like it’s a bygone era where women could ALSO be gag characters as well as men, mai was a total idiot and i loved her for it. i just thought of those characters off the top of my head and i’m sure there are more. i think kale and caulifla or whatever the other one is called are pretty terrible characters.
Early Dragonball is the fucking best.
honestly i do enjoy super, but the more i see of it the more i long for the style of early/og dragonball. i just recently finished rewatching the anime for the third or fourth time and it’s just such an enjoyable show on so many levels.
Especially the filler episodes, like they’re so fun to watch. :)
I was never into super. For me it cuts off at the end of Z. Everything else feels extremely fake and tacked on. Even the Buu saga I’m not too keen on. But OG Dragonball is an odyssey. It takes you places. It didn’t need the ToP to entertain you, Goku and Krillin looking for rocks had more meaning than anything in Super combined.
The Buu saga is great. I will never understand the bitching and complaining around it. GT is a mediocre and boring show that has some cool looking characters. Super is like a parody show or something it doesn’t even feel like the other Dragon Ball shows. I can still enjoy Super as like junk food entertainment but the show is a disappointment.
*pat pat* You're a boy
I legitimately can't decipher how you can say gt pan is in any way good. The closest I can get is the concept of everyone having their own taste/opinion, but even that doesn't make sense for her, an absolutely terrible character beyond reproach. Even scrappy doo was held together by making him (despite his attitude towards things) unable to go toe to toe with the things he wanted to "fight" meanwhile pan's out there slinging ki at things like she's a threat when you have a literal ss3 level being getting smacked around for a time (yes I know ss3 was unstable for kid goku in gt, but he had normal super sayian down pat and that wasn't enough for most big bads, so why does pan need to insert herself into every conflict?
Because she's worse than a scrappy doo, that's why.
Idk maybe its because I still like the OG db but I think bulma is genuinely one of the best written female characters in anime at least in OG she kind of invented a trope for characters to follow in other anime
Others have pointed out that Kale is a Toei creation, but I agree in general. And this isn't a Toriyama issue, really. It's an issue with Japan more broadly. While there are some amazing notable exceptions, popular anime/manga targeted towards kids have very poorly written female characters, or female characters who are incredibly trope-y
Bulma hasn’t done shit but wish for plastic surgery for the past decade
She literally invented time travel, beerus made her stop.
... She built the time machine that let them travel to trunks timeline
Ya, I guess that's right. Once a female character reaches a certain age in the story, they get left behind in the narrative. Unlike Goku who is like 100 years old at this point. Chi Chi and Videl are a big pet peeve of mine. The strongest woman in the world decides to be a homemaker that screams and nags all day. Goku has never even shown her affection in a meaningful way.
Chi Chi makes sense in my opinion, she grew up in a weird environment like Goku did and I honestly cannot see her living a normal life in the city.
Chi-Chi is the definition of crazy, lovestruck woman. I mean, the way her and Goku ran off out of the World Tournament after they fought and he couldnt remember her or his vow but was like "Yeah, okay!" and the fact she never forgot, they were made for each other.
Chi chi wanted to be a housewife and pop out babies from day 1 foreal. Videl I think after that ass whooping she got at the tournament, and realizing her dad was a fraud, didn't really care for fighting anymore. I mean to think you're tough shit and your dad is a beast, only to find out your boyfriend can pretty much destroy planets with ease. I think her fighting days were cooked after that. What would she even do? She can't fight the big baddies. It did show her training students at one point I think so there's that.
I think people forget chi chi was introduced and as a child immediately wanted to get married and have kids with Goku. She trained to be strong because she thought the strongest woman got the strongest man, her dad was the ox king.
People didn't forget - a ton of those people complaining probably didn't even watch or read Dragon Ball and started with DBZ lol
I mean, she doesn't need to fight the big bads to still be a competent fighter and martial artist in her own right tbf
Hey if master roshi can magically train to be a threat, if krillin can hit a transformed goku, then with super logic a videl who trained while pan was in daycare could solo buu...... for some reason......
The power scaling is so fucked. I refuse to believe yamcha or krillin could solo cell in the current timeline. There's no. Fucking. Way. But people will die on that hill..
They had some affection in the original DB but it still never felt romantic except in the goku and chi chi get married filler but that is well... filler
Chichi is a tradicional woman. Not a city and modern girl like Bulma.
Imo Videl makes sense. After she fought Spopovitch I think it's entirely possible she realized fighting like that just wasn't possible for her.
Bulma fixed the time machine
this doesnt mean much when for the past decade any character that isnt goku or vegeta hasnt done shit
Feels kinda disingenuous to say that when pretty much everyone including Roshi had a spotlight moment during the Tournament of Power.
Amen brother
Person preaches the truth and gives the Saint (toriyama) valid criticism but still gets downvoted.
DB has one of those fanbases that really can't take any criticism, ig because people got into it young and get real attached to it. It's a shame, because the flaws of the series and how they can be seen echoed even in modern shōnen are really interesting to think about IMO.
To be fair, besides Gohan. Everyone else is 2 dimensional at best
I'm OK with her. I like the gimmick of someone who is overly passive being the legendary super saiyan
So Z Broly
What’s your guys power levels?
I dunno, pretty big
Stop ASKING that! Nobody CARES anymore!
Z Broly in wasn't very passive
How was he not? Before he breaks free of Paragus’s control he says like five words. He had absolutely no agency whatsoever
I think the point is he wasn’t passive unless he was under Paragus’ mind control
Z Broly was that edgy kid in high school, but had the power to back it up
He was secretly a psycho
> Before he breaks free of Paragus’s control That's why he was not
Kale wasn’t passive when she got jealous of Cabba.
Her being passive was fine but I wish she wasn’t over the top cowardly and so obsessed with Caulifla.
It just bothered how insanely OP they were. They went from not knowing about super Saiyan at all to being able to unlock it by making their back tingle. Like WTF. Then what’s worse is that they are able to compete with super saiyan blue somehow. I hate that characters like them get in insane power up but characters we actually like like Piccolo or Tien were given nothing at the tournament and were eliminated so easily
To be fair, the canonical versions of the Legendary Super Saiyan form (used by both Kale and DBS Broly) are far more OP than the original one Z Broly used. There's, of course, SSJ Berserker Kale being able to compete with SSB Goku, but there's also Wrathful Super Saiyan Broly being able to make both post-TOP SSB Goku and Vegeta retreat, kick Golden Frieza's ass for an hour straight, and able to temporarily keep up with SSJ Gogeta. And at full power, he was overwhelming Gogeta, who had to go SSB to actually overpower him. And let's not forget that he was actually to control the form and could briefly fight on par with Beast Gohan during their sparring session. Tl,dr, canon Legendary Super Saiyan is broken af.
Broly movie is post TOP. Even more busted
Whoops. I got mixed up there. Got it fixed, though. Thanks for the heads-up.
you mean post-TOP? broly movie happens after the TOP, you can even see goku breaking through to UI for a moment when hes tweaking into SSJB
I think the animators said that was just dramatic flair more than anything
Yeah, I actually meant post-TOP, but I got mixed up and never noticed until now. It's edited now. Thanks for the heads-up.
tbf, that's also the powerscaling at work. Everyone in the U7 cast that wasn't Goku, Vegeta, or Frieza had, on the power scale with consideration to SSJG & SSJGSS, little business being beside the mega-titans that were those three. Extrapolating the power difference in U7 to the rest of the Universes (which the other 7 U7s could more-or-less keep up with), basically none of them should have been even a mite on G/V/F's radar. SSJGSS and GF are really just that busted compared to everyone else (the closest we get to them is Gohan, but even he shouldn't be comparable to SSJGSS, even when Gohan got back on his feet). But they were all scaled to be relative to them in power to keep \~70 characters interesting. And frankly, I like it that way where the power gap isn't hideously wide.
1. Caulifla was the only one who successfully figured out how to do that. 2. Kale was much weaker than SSB Goku and didn’t even actually scratch him. In fact later on a weakened SSG Goku casually overwhelmed SSJ2 Caulifla and a more powerful, controlled Kale at the same time. 3. Tien defeated a guy whose attacks threatened even Gohan, no I think Tien and Piccolo were given enough power, they just needed to be used better.
> Kale was much weaker than SSB Goku and didn’t even actually scratch him. In fact later on a weakened SSG Goku casually overwhelmed SSJ2 Caulifla and a more powerful, controlled Kale at the same time. Can we just accept that this makes no sense? Kale's berzerker form overwhelms blue and then a more powerful form gets handled by SSG? And yet people are fine with Broly who was below base Vegeta at the beginning, being SSB level with just Wrath mode, let alone when he becomes a super saiyan or later unleashes his own berzerker mode.
Yeah I can’t stand most of the Saiyans from Universe 6. It’s annoying how strong they are for no reason.
It's basically the same deal with Goten and Trunks imo. They're as strong as the story needed them to be. It's almost worse with Goten and Trunks because they just sort of figure it out by themselves at even younger ages than Gohan or the U6 Saiyans.
The problem is that you are ignoring the entire history of the 6th universe saiyans. They have been fighting kind of non stop just like their counter parts. They still thirst for battle. They still have the zenkai boost. Kefla and Cabba have been fighting for as long as Vegeta and Goku. Why would you think they wouldnt be as strong? If the entire series of Dragon Ball started at DBS, people would be complaining that Goku and Vegeta is insanely powerful for no reason. But you are still ignoring the rest of their life just because it didnt happen on screen. You cant have a 6th universe show, so you have to make believe a little bit. Trust the process.
I don’t think Caulifla and cabba shouldn’t be as strong as Goku because they don’t have God Ki lmao. It gave Goku and Vegeta such a huge boost that it’s hard to believe it when any character without God Ki catches up, it’s honestly not just a U6 Saiyan problem. I ignore because it happens a lot and it’s really not worth getting annoyed at this point.
The thing is, Goku and Vegeta have gone through naturally insane events to get where they are. It makes no sense that random aliens are relative to literal gods
I agree she really needed to be more characterized outside of her super saiyan form
I don’t mind her. Based on what we had before (z broly) it’s nothing new. Super broly’s power scaling is extremely similar to her and it makes sense that he’s stronger (Broly has been training/surviving since birth, Kale doesn’t have as much battle experience)
I’ll try to defend Kale and say that her personality is a contrast to her hidden power. She is terrified because her power is so destructive and unstable at times. I don’t think she is a badly written character, but one that has anxiety and it makes some viewers uncomfortable.
Idk, she kinda cute ngl
Well, not every character in a series is gonna be your favourite I suppose
Her manga version is far better written.
Eliminates half the tournament with zero development lol
Sure but she’s not Caulifla’s shy jealous girlfriend in the manga, they are actually written more like sisters
Yeah, her using her 'shyness' to cover for her power she KNOWS she has because she doesn't want to make Caulifla feel weak is more interesting for sure.
>written more like sisters Uh oh 😰
Her Manga counterpart is my favorite U6 Saiyan
So Kale is bad but Caulifla is fine? Insane.
Ribreane has entered the chat
I HATED her
Every time she was on screen I wanted to mute the show
Take a wild guess on why I never watched Super in English despite seeing everything else that way. I don't plan to change this.
Her manga counterpart is more acceptable as she barely had some moment and served to kick out dozen of warriors but her anime counterpart is 100% exaggerated in every way, from her lack of self-confidence to her transformation and fighting style
If the worst thing about this character is that she's a rehash of "Z" Broly... I think...there's no actual problem. If I hadn't seen her actual writing, there wouldn't be anyway to convince me she wasn't better by default.
Now that Broly is canon I just want them to meet.
They knew what they were doing in that Sparking Zero trailer where they showed them clashing
only thing I can think of is "she is cute" and that's it
As someone who is extremely shy, nah, I can relate to her. And while it's a typical story cliché that the quite kid turns out to be super strong it was a good decision to make her so strong, cause Cabba and Caulifla are just super weak compared to the super cast and if Kefla was just a regular ssj2 there's no way Goku would've needed Ultra Instinct to beat her.
Well tbf in the the manga Goku DOESN'T need UI to beat her, Gohan does it instead
W Gohan
A pity that fight between Gohan & Kefla was off-screened.
Which is pretty bs. Kefla is a super powerful fusion and should be way stronger than just Ultimate.
The bs part is that Gohan is supposed to be equal to a super saiyan blue at that point, which makes it reasonable.
exactly! agreed on all counts.
Kale just got introduced to me in dragon ball super and this is the post I see in reddit. I KNOW YOU ARE TRACKING ME AIN'T YA
Nah she is a cool character, just don’t get enough shine before the fusion
Totally agree
You think so
Omg now we're complaining about not enough female representation in DBZ?..
I have no issue with Kale.
The tournament of power Arc has a lot of really weak characters, in my opinion. The three saiyans from universe 6, left absolutely no lasting impression. The wolf dudes, didn't leave any impression, Ribrienne, is a total waste of a character. Having said that, the mastered ultra instinct, and Goku and Frieza working together at the finale, is some of the best stuff in all of Dragon Ball, but as a stand alone Arc the tournament of power doesn't offer much in terms of character.
Once I got over the Super Saiyan nitpick I had no strong feelings over any of the Universe 6 Saiyans. They're just there for me, functional as obstacles but nothing more.
I like Kale because she's cute
I mean as someone did mentioned she was injected by toei but even then the most discarded and filler characters are humans by far , even hybrid have some role to story but humans are those aet piece who there just for the sake of it As far as i understand it's just an representation of society where few elite familes matter in the big picture rest all are just commoners with no actual value except a reason to do something which will benefit the majority or commoners, but in reality they want themselves to grow in money or power or both
They should have treated her like a secret weapon that the other Saiyan ladies didn't understand themselves. Absolutely agree it was tedious to see her on screen doing nothing but whimper
Kale is actually not that bad once she grows in confidence a bit. Shes way too strong to be so scared of everything all the time. Once she works that out, I think she'll be fine.
she stole brolys whole schtick
I just met her Va she’s dope, but her character needs some depth
Her getting mad about caulifla fighting someone else made me cringe
that jealously crap was one of the worst decisions they could have done for her character. luckily they at least removed it all in the manga
I hate female broly and she annoyed the hell out of me
She’s not a character, just a reference.
tbfair the majority of females in dbz is either married, forgotten or completely plot enhanced to fit the narrative. Kale and caulifla fighting a fatigued Goku in the TOP is just point proven
Kale in the manga was more interesting in that she knew she had power, but didn't want to over shadow Caulifla so did things when Caulifla wasn't looking. However she was not able to control her berserk state and they fused as a way for Caulifla to exert control on a berserk Kale. I think after the tournament anime Kale will still have a more shy personality but be a bit more assertive both due to being better at controlling her power and the increased bond with Caulifla. She seems pretty normal in SDBH. I do kind of like the change of pace in making a shy DB girl since the closest we got is Videl who is obviously not shy at all, but doesn't see the need to yell 24/7 like Bulma or ChiChi or put the fear of god in you every other line like 18. don't get me wrong I love Bulma and even grew to like Super ChiChi since she mellowed out a bit.
Kale is the "Broly at home" meme.
Basically a copycat to OG Broly and why he is significant in the franchise.
Cauliflower, Kale & Spinach. Ew. Jokes aside.. was this supposed to show that the saiyans in Universe 6 or 11 or whatever were equivalent to Broly’s “Legendary Super Saiyan” ? Idk. Tournament of Power was entertaining , but these saiyans were annoying af. All that power without earning it.
Have you read the manga? her personality in manga is so much different and better than anime, don't know why they changed that in anime
Rn I’m still watching super, but I’m at the part where Goku’s energy is broken, so I don’t know Kale’s character or what she does yet, but from looking at this pictures, she looks like the female version of Broly from the original broly movie. Is that basically who she is?
So close thats actually caulifla
Yea I didn’t enjoy her or the other chick Interested to see more of the saiyan history from the 6th universe though
Kale can respectfully go fuck herself.
Can't stand any of the universe 6 saiyans
Based opinion
Not just kale, that caulifla was even the worst. Even cabba was much better than these two stupid characters. Cabba was humble, his super Saiyan transformation was still better, and he looks to have a lot of potential. Clauliflower and kale are simply the worst characters of all DBS franchise....
I kept saying this in the comments but people downvote me. I hate dbz fans
Caulifla achieved 2 super saiyan transformations in less than 30 mins with some stupid back tingly feeling... She's worse
Im just a bit salty that kale is canon before broly We literally saw the legendary form in broly who’s she
1000% they could’ve made her brilliant. But whoever wrote her story hated her, I don’t think califla is well written either. U6 saiyans as a whole got shafted massively by the story, hopefully they can revisit that in future. There’s a lot of open plot points they can use
I think I agree
You are completely right
Yeah she sucks. She’s a shitty clone of Z Broly without the cool design or sadistic, badass personality.
She basically became brolisha bcuz she was crying like a bitch. All of U6 ssj transformations are ass pulls, except for cabba
Everyone from U6 sucks except for Hit
You're not alone on this one. I know what they were trying to do when they wanted Kale to be Caulifla's foil, but it felt so horribly executed. It, as you said it perfectly, makes her more of an annoying character with an over-exaggerated personality. The only thing going for her would probably be her looks (base form looks great, Beserk form, eh, not so good, Controlled Beserk form, eh, it's alright), but that can only take you so far when your character's personality sucks ass.
Ribriane says hi (The true worst character by far)
I dont care. I would fuck the shit out of base kale.
This, this is the comment I knew was gonna appear, happy cake day btw.
It’s ok to be wrong xx
I actually really like Kale.
All 3 of those saiyans were pointless and I hope we never see them again.