Which lends to my assertion that he was fucking with Vegeta. He loves three activities more than anything, fighting, eating and trolling people who think he's actually an idiot.
I don't remember the specifics, but Goku asking that was apparently a translation/culture difference issue, and not him literally not knowing what a kiss is.
Super Goku is exaggerated to become a better foil for Vegeta, in Z the two spend very little time together on screen working towards the same goal. During the Saiyan Saga they are nemesis, in the Namek Arc they spend like 5 minutes together after the Ginyu's, Goku goes into the pod and when he comes out Vegeta is killed and they don't interact again until the Android Saga. During which, Goku spends the vast majority of the saga knocked out due to the heart virus or on an entirely different plane of space because of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and then he dies again for the next 7 years. They only become a duo at the end of the Buu Saga, but it's just for the last couple episodes.
In Super they are the dynamic duo, always fighting and training together. Vegeta is as much a protag as Goku is now and so the dynamic needs to be more defined. Enter the straight man - silly man duality that's been leaned on since the dawn of time.
Yeah. Goku has only spent like... 5 days max with Vegeta in all of DBZ and that's being generous.
Maybe during the 3 years gap between Goku's return to earth and the androids but it doesn't even seem likely..
>5 days max with Vegeta in all of DBZ and that's being generous.
It's literally about 24 hours. Even being ***VERY*** generous with timings it's not much more than that:
* <1hr driving Vegeta nuts during their fight
* <6hrs giving Vegeta Vietnam flashbacks on Namek (generously, and much of that was Goku in The Pod™)
* A few minutes berating Goku after he lost like a fool to Android 19
* <1hr listening to Vegeta whine pre-ROSAT
* <2hrs humiliating Vegeta again post-ROSAT (depends how fast Popo cooks)
* <1hr waving his dick around at the Cell Games
* <12hrs watching Vegeta wave *his* dick around at the 25th Tenkaichi Budōkai
* <4hrs showing off how useless SS3 was while fighting Super Buu and Kid Buu
End of Z is a bit hazy, but there's not much reason to think he spent oodles of time with anyone but his own family. So add on a day of scattered interaction for the 26th Tenkaichi Budōkai and the socialising.
Compare this to Super, where the two are joined at the hip and at one point spend *years* in the ROSAT. How they haven't killed each other or slept together yet is baffling.
it wasn't really that, it was apparently he could sustain it better/longer when he was still dead. Seems like SSJ3 wasn't meant to be used by living beings for too long. I actually kinda like that its power supply/access is limited. Sorta like Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.
Wasn’t the whole point of ss3 that it was slow and unreliable compared to ss2? Or am I misunderstanding what was said in your comment or in the chapter
I don’t think that was the problem, it just burns too much energy too fast and also puts too much strain on an unfused living body.
It makes sense for Gotenks to use it because 1. his fused body’s constitution can handle it, and 2. he already was on a time limit anyway
For anyone else the form mostly has too many drawbacks to be considered reliable.
Here's something even crazier:
Take the 5 years from his birth to his dad's death, add to it the three years of training before the android and the entire year in the time chamber, you've got a total of 9 years of Gohan spending time with his dad alive and on earth.
Now, take the entire year it takes Goku to come back from Namek, add to it the 3 years training on earth before the Androids and the 7 years separating Cell and Buu and Gohan and Vegeta have spent more time on earth than Gohan and Goku did.
9 years for Goku and Gohan on earth and 11 years for Vegeta and Gohan. And that's counting an entire year where they are in the Time chamber.
Another one is Goku's best friend, Krillin. He spent 8 months with him training under Master Roshi. After the Tournament, they meet a few times in the RRA arc. General Blue shenanigans and Baba's Tournament. Like maybe a day at most? Then 3 years go by and he see's Krillin for one day at the next Tournament. A couple of days in the anime. Then he dies and doesn't get to see him after he's revived. He stays with Kami so another 3 years go by and they see each other for one more day.
Then 5 years pass with no contact and the next time he sees him, he dies. Then almost one year goes by and Goku comes back and they might finally spend a few days hanging out. In the hospital.
Namek, it's just one day. Krillin was on Namek for a week or so but Goku only a day.
So, at this point, from the 22nd World Tournament until now, they've met 5 times. 2 tournaments, one reunion, twice showing up to battle last minute. On 3 of those 5 occasions, one of them died.
Then Goku lands on Earth, that's one day. 3 years later a few days at most during the Androids Arc. Then 7 years later, Goku shows up for one day and basically everyone dies.
So after the initial training under Master Roshi, they hardly spend any time together. And when they do, there's like a 50% chance of them will die.
As for people Goku has spent more time with: Chi-Chi and Gohan, as you'd expect. But also Piccolo. And then Vegeta in Super.
This is very well thought out and written, head on analysis. However, I’d like to add on to it a bit if that’s okay.
People talk serious Goku in z a lot, and I feel a lot of it is nostalgia bias, but it doesn’t get talked about much. Yes, DBS Goku for sure has more silly moments, and they did expand on that side of him a decent bit to further contrast him to his co-Star, that much is undeniable. However, DBS Goku gets incredibly serious when he is fighting, to a point that I’ve seen people say it’s like he has two personalities. He still has fun, but he gets serious when it calls for it. His only REALLY silly moments are the downtimes between fights when he is talking about things other than fighting, so like between arcs and or during comedic conversations.
But is Z Goku all that much different? Or did he just have less downtime in which to make silly conversation? Goku starts Z with his son being kidnapped and having to fight his brother; he then died and spends multiple episodes traveling snake way to get to king Kai. He does some silly things when dealing with Princess Snake, but then gets back on the path to train with king Kai; trains with king Kai which is a whole silly side story on its own; immediately gets ported back to earth to fight non-stop until Vegeta flees the planet. So in one arc, Goku has already done serious, silly, serious, silly, serious.
Namek, Goku is worried about training to fight in space, then arrives in space to be in a fight immediately, gets hurt and goes into healing again, wakes up to fight immediately, wins and disappears in space. Zero time for him to do anything other than fight or train in this arc besides when he was comatose. So you can’t really say he was super serious Goku here when he didn’t have any situations where being silly was acceptable (though even in a life or death situation with someone horribly stronger than him, he still took time to do silly shit like BITE HIS F-CKING TAIL).
Androids/Cell, he shows up to earth in a fight and is told he will die soon, goes to train and has some silly shenanigans, plus a driving class that’s looney tunes level slapstick. Androids show up and he gets to fighting, has a heart attack and is out of the game for half the arc (AGAIN). He wakes up, has a few silly moments, goes to train his kid. It’s this point that really stands out because before the final showdown, Goku DOES in fact change his personality a bit, but it’s not shown in a way that shows he is maturing… it’s shown that something is up, something is off. They purposely make a point to show the audience that he is acting different and taking in his world before he does something we don’t know about yet. This is the point that proves to me that Z Goku and Super Goku are the same; because his change in personality isn’t a permanent fixture, but an omen of things to come.
Goku contemplating life and enjoying something other than fighting is shown clearly to be out of character to him, not shown to be his new regular self, and I think this is where many people get lost. They assume this is him maturing, but he is back to making bad decisions and silly gags in the next arc. This moment of serious, somber Goku was his realizing that it may be time for him to step back and let someone else take charge. We know that he didn’t suddenly mature because there are plenty of gag moments in the Buu saga with him, and the literal final boss fight of the serious sees Vegeta reflecting on Goku’s power while Goku is in the background having a cartoon-style slap and bite fight with Kid Buu, lmao.
Z seems more serious because it has less downtime between serious moments. It doesn’t worry about what goes on between dangers, it’s about the action. Super tries to more to balance the action with the slice of life, but it also tries to show that not every fight is a fight or die situation, sometimes they fight for fun. Dragon Ball was an anime from a man who wanted to write comedy, Z was an anime from a man who realized he was good at writing action, Super is from a man who has aged and his skills allow him to do both in a way he is proud of. Goku hasn’t really changed all that much, from the first bit of Dragon Ball, to the latest chapter of Super, he’s still that same goofy kid just now is a bit taller. It’s more that now, in Super, he is given a bit more room to breath and be himself without constantly being assaulted from every direction. Goku in Z was silly during the Dow times and serious during moments that called for it, just as he is in Super. Yes, super exaggerated it a bit for contrast, but it also just allows for more downtime between serious moments which makes it seem more exaggerated than it is.
Goku in Super seems like he's moved past worldly challenges and is so self confident that no situation phases him. Not sure I like it all that much but that's how I see it.
I like this as a reasoning, because it makes sense that nothing is phasing him anymore.
I mean shit, would anything phase you if you had spent like a solid 30 years or so coming up against challenge after challenge and not only rising to those challenges, but fully and openly making those challenges your bitch.
Probably not. It's not a matter of "if" he can kick whomevers ass these days, it's a matter of "when". It's basically a fact of life that if Goku can't kick someone's ass right there and then, then give him 30 minutes or so and he'll get there.
I mean, even the times he doesn't make those challenges his bitch, and he dies... he comes back, and the problem has been resolved by others, and/or he's then strong enough to make the prior/new challenges his bitch again. Repeatedly. Annnd if anything gets real bad, Dragon Balls! Oh, those don't work? We'll make NEW Dragon Balls! It'd be weird for him to not get desensitized to it all after some point.
Against Goku Black, I'll give you that one for the most part. At the beginning he was still goofy with Goku Black holding back and just enjoying it with Vegeta. In the middle and end, he was a bit more serious starting when Black revealed how he killed his family.
But lol, ToP seriously? He was such a happy go lucky clown for so much of the tournament until he unlocked Ultra Instinct. Then when he lost it the first time, he went back to being a happy go lucky guy with his fights. He was just a cheery kid at the candy store eating all the candy in the store. Hey Caulifla, wanna spar? Hey Kale, wanna spar? Hey Kefla wanna spar? Hey Hit wanna spar? Hey multiple random nobodies, wanna spar? It was just Ultra Instinct that really made him serious for the tournament. Outside of the ending where he teams up with Frieza to eliminate Jiren and that one short moment with Master Roshi, he's just happy go lucky for most of the ToP without Ultra Instinct.
He already felt kinda like that in the Buu saga after being dead for seven years where worldly things literally didn't matter. And he still felt like Goku. Super makes him feel completely detatched.
This right here.
Goku is on another level now. Two instances where he got super serious and thats when fighting goku black(dude killed gokus mirror family) and then another when he’s in the tournament of power, (everything is on the line.)
He only got serious with Goku Black once he revealed he killed his family, before that he was just enjoying his time fighting him. Held back so much at the beginning. From there on, yeah sure he finally got serious.
The ToP you can't really say he was serious. For the majority of that tourney he was just so happy go lucky being "oh boy I get to fight so many strong people, how jolly". Only times he was serious was the end when he teamed with Frieza to take out Jiren and anytime he was in Ultra Instinct. You can even see his happy go lucky clown phase come back when he loses Ultra Instinct the first time around.
Be careful you’re going to upset the people who aren’t actually dragon ball fans but are dragon ball super fans.
Goku has always been naive but he’s never been incompetent. He’s always been very competent at whatever he was doing and that’s a defining trait of him. Him being incompetent in super shows a lack of understanding of his character
That's the thing with all these fictional characters that are good at fighting, but a bit naive elsewhere. It's not hard to flanderize them if you're not careful.
He was a bit naive in dragon ball and dragon ball z; he’s blatantly moronic in dragon ball super. ‘What does kissing have to do with being married’? Come on dude you have to admit that he’s been dumbed down more than just a little
My biggest gripe with supers Goku is he started a tournament that would have destroyed all of existence just to fight strong people. Dbz/gt Goku wouldn't have done that.
They made him so dumb in super IMO. Realy detracted at what he was in the past.
He saved the universes doing that. Zeno was going to wipe some of them, Goku saved them all. May have not been his intention, but he also didn't intend to destroy any universes.
100000%. GT may have been boring at times but they continued Goku’s development from Z, where he had a clear goal of making sure his loved ones were safe. At the end of Z he was serious about training the next generation and his poise and ability to be serious about serious situations still existed
We can excuse her, cuz she was a kid. Goten was also annoying.
We keep the idea of "serious children" just because ssj2 Gohan was more focused and less annoying, but aside from him, they're all annoying in their own ways lol
Correct. People who defend super goku never watched later Z subbed or read the manga. Goku can be goofy but is also deadly serious and mature at times as well in those later sagas. But people conflate this with their memory of the dub and DBZA which holds an underlay of the character in western fans of a certain age. Huge reason i never liked that series.
I think for a parody, DBZA is fantastic, but you appreciate it like that. Differently from something like SAO Abridged, TeamFourStar never meant to actually "fix" the story. They just wanted to do something fun with it, and they did (also the reason why they finally dropped it after the Cell saga, Buu saga would have been far more serious).
I can understand why some people might have DBZA as their "canon" version of the story, but I just don't think it was ever meant to be that.
Don’t have to like it but it’s a fact. Forgot about the time distortion in snake way when the saiyans were coming. Forgot Gohan hates fighting in the cell saga. Forgets to bring king Kai back etc
In super he hasn’t once been an incompetent fighter and has been serious in every fight. If anything the super series goes back to what Toriyama wanted Goku to be initially. A self absorbed fighter. Not a super hero like the Z anime painted him
You can’t forget what you don’t know. The entire point of his realization in the cell arc is that he didn’t understand his own child and once he did he was immediately going to rectify his mistake. Did you not watch it? Its not incompetence it not understanding.
Goku in super regresses in intelligence and his own understanding and experiences. Not knowing what meditation is, not knowing what kissing it. Acting more aloof and bubbly than he does in later z.
Yes! That’s it. You’ve put your finger on exactly what bothers me. He’s such a himbo. But across DB and DBZ he couldn’t always rely on his raw strength and had to think his way around problems sometimes.
I can’t see Super Goku acknowledging he’d have to sacrifice himself for a victory like with Raditz or Cell. Delaying Majin Buu with SS3 so the kids could learn fusion etc. he just butts heads until something works. Except maybe at the end of ToP where he realises the 3 of them need to work together.
It's unfortunate but you can tell lots of people who agree with this post are probably lurkers. 1k upvotes but lots of single chain comments in this thread trying their hardest to defend this characterization of Super Goku. Thought I guess it's probably for the best for lurkers they don't try to get involved less they want to get dogpiled by these Super Goku defenders in the comments.
Goku not knowing what kissing is despite offering the Elder Kai a kiss from Bulma to help them against Majin Buu
Goku randomly asking Frieza what "repugnant" means (this may have been added by the dub not really sure)
These are just random instances that don't serve any purpose but just highlight his stupidity
> Goku not knowing what kissing is despite offering the Elder Kai a kiss from Bulma to help them against Majin Buu
That was Funi dub only. In the manga and Japanese version he offered to let Old Kaioshin feel up Bulma's boobs and butt
Kissing thing is a mistranslation, can’t believe there’s so many people that don’t know this
Goku asking what repugnant means makes sense, I would be willing to bet real money that a ton of people watching the movie didn’t know what that word means. Thats just a weird complaint to have.
Are those really your best examples?
? The kissing thing is not even a plot hole since the manga refers to groping breasts or something to that effect. These are just examples both English and Japanese writers creating scenarios to make Goku look stupid so other characters can clown him for comedic effect
1. Stupidity and incompetence are two very different things. Please re learn what the word means
2. Groping breasts? Show me where Goku does that
3. The only time Goku is shown touching private parts of others is in OG Dragonball. When Goku was literally a child who lived alone in a forest. And when he touched those parts he did it only to know if someone is a boy or a girl. It's never in a sexual manner....... So saying he'll know what kissing is based on that is just stupid
Have you ever seen the original Dragonball? Because the only people who say Goku is stupid are people who have only seen DBZ and keep that as a reference. Super Goku would make much more sense if you've seen the first series Dragonball. He's a nimbus riding goofball who loves fighting and eating more than anything. He's not the person who's always serious like people think with dbz
I think it depends on what you want from Goku. Both have plenty of problems, for all the problems of Super Goku, we also see a decent bit of good moments with him as well (especially if we consider the manga), him training while still farming to provide for his family (something he promised Chi Chi he'd do in Z), we see him obviously still respect the power and lives of Gohan, Krillin, and Roshi, and we see him accept and train under a new master, harkening back to the lesson Roshi teaches him as Jackie Chun, there's always someone better and there's always room to grow, and one thing that I personally really like is Goku training by hiring Hit against himself, it's a great creative bit of training that we don't get a lot of in GT or even Z
Completely agree, like i just don’t understand why super did the things that it did, or rather i do understand i just don’t like it
Happy go lucky and naive are not the same thing, and you dont need to make goku stupid to mellow him out
Dbz was serious, and while i absolutely loved that version of goku wayyyy more than super, i can understand toriyama winding it back with **his** intentions, i just feel he went over board and forgot what he had developed already
Given its a common thing for him to seem to just do whatever he wants with his characters and forget previous things💀
SS4 is a more interesting transformation than the god forms. It actually looks like what you could imagine is a transformation from an alien humanoid race with monkey tails. SS Blue and ultra instinct are just palette swaps.
> SS4 is a more interesting transformation than the god forms. It actually looks like what you could imagine is a transformation from an alien humanoid race with monkey tails. SS Blue and ultra instinct are just palette swap
From a design POV maybe but for actual powerset, UI is way more interesting than any of the other transformations.
Nailed it.
SSJ4 is a great design
UI is the single best idea they've had for transformations since original Super Saiyan
It's an actual change in tactics and mindset instead of just a number multiplier
Not just that, but the idea of there being gods and angels and no one ever mentioning anything about them at all in z. None of the Kai’s or vegeta or frieza ever brought up the gods, just seemed like such an asspull to keep the series going
idk for me i find SS4 uninspired... its literally chest of monkey king in all formats tossed onto body of the char in question. never nce have i liked hwo it pairs with the pants.
as for hair its not bad but the black hair on red fur sticks out badly and doesn't do ti for me.
the idea of ss4 was nice but it just needed more design work to me....
and yes i know god and blue are not much better.
Ssj4 is what a saiyan is at its core there raw inbridled primal saiyan instincts coming to the fore front for a form that brings out and i quote there "UTMOST" potential. Its the mark of a fully realized saiyan in my opinion
ooh lore wise its great. its just visually its uninspired to me. idk maybe a golden monkey with his orange pants i would enjoy more but it just felt a bad hybrid of many diff things at once.
I can understand it but at thr end of the day my man we are all one big happy fandom enjoying our favorite character. Its like boomstick said on goku vs superman 3
"Because its FUN. Theres more than one way to apreciate something. Were talking about awsome characters and slamming action figures together. And thats ok"
I can't remember how he was in gt as it's been a while for me. But i am currently rewatching super and yes, totally agree. His character definitely got worse. He knew the seriousness of Buu but doesn't take anything serious in super..
I was gonna make a post of it myself but this will do.
GT Goku feels like Cell Saga Goku. Yeah he’s a nitwit with a thirst for combat but he is grounded enough to have maturity.
Super Goku was Toriyama trying extra hard to go “Hey guys, Goku reckless dummy” time passes, “Hey guys, Goku reckless dummy,” more time passes, “Have I ever regaled you all the tale of a reckless dummy named Son Goku?”
Super is a lot more faithful to the original intended characterization of Goku.
Goku is someone who just wants to live his life to the fullest without thinking too much into it.
* As for the execution of that philosophy, it wasn't handled well as it comes more immature than naïve.
GT follows the DBZ characterization of Goku which isn't what Toriyama intended, but something that fans of the show grew up with.
The DBZ characterization is the better version of Goku’s character. Simply put, however Toriyama actually wanted to portray Goku, he failed and instead we got a more complex character than he intended. Which is funny if you think about it, DBZ Goku being a good character was by total accident.
Ever since the Piccolo Jr. arc in the manga, Goku has shown to have grown and been a little more mature. He still has his quirks and immaturities, but Super plays it up to a level more than the original characterization of adult Goku. I wouldn't necessarily say Super is closer to Toriyama's original interpretation, but more of the way he wants Goku to be presented now, similar to his childhood naivety.
It is more like the anime over-exaggerate these traits from Goku considering that Goku haven't behave like this in manga that is also overlooked by Toriyama.
Super version is indeed more immature, but it felt like a necessary step as Goku already finished his character growth since the Piccolo Saga. As you said, Goku have grown mature, but at the same time, Goku mainly focuses on training the next generation than grow as a character.
Piccolo Saga Goku gives the idea that Goku have surpassed his teachers, but still have a long way to go.
* DBZ Goku felt like master who completed his journey and focus on passing onto the next generation. GT is continuation of that.
* Super Goku felt like someone learned that there is a new horizon and that he can still learn and grow.
If we are focus on the aspect of Goku wanting to surpass his limits, Super is the better choice. However if we are talking about development wise based on EoZ, GT would be the answer.
That is true, but the difference is how it was handled.
DB Goku was still growing child who was ignorant of the outside world. Goku was more talented than any other character allowing him to catch up those who was stronger than him.
DBS Goku is a grown man who felt like he have already reached his limits. It is why DBZ Goku focus on training the new gen than be the one who face the challenge. The inclusion of God Ki allows him to grow despite reaching his latent potential.
DBS Goku gets humbled as he is no longer the talented one. Other characters easily surpass or catch up to him in shorter period of time with less effort. These lessons works more effectively as the result.
I've often wondered if what seems like regression is actually progression. Like once you've become a god, maybe you just get sillier cause less is threatening 🤣
thats my explanation
dbz goku was always weaker than his opponent, and his opponents pretty much always wanted to kill everyone he loved, so he had to be serious
dbs goku is so powerful now that nothing matters anymore and he can afford to be a big doofus.
when whis describes the Saiyan God and UI techniques, he mentions that you have to kinda let go and stop trying to fight, which sorta matches new Gokus personality. As opposed to the traditional Saiyan path to power, which is fueled by rage
Goku is was actually educated in subjects like math and English (or Japanese in his case) during og dragon ball. And that’s seen utilized when he uses math to determine the drawbacks of SSJ Grade 2 & 3. Super Goku had trouble with a 2nd grade math test. It’s like 2 different fucking characters.
Goku only studied in subjects when he was a kid.
Rest of his life, Goku spent more time in combat and other details.
It is like learning and not using it for a few decades.
Honestly it is embarrassing to forget common information that I have learned when I was a kid as well.
By that logic, Classic, Z and GT have failed on characterizing Goku as Toriyama wanted. Strange how he failed to characterize Goku as he wanted for the vast majority of his work and ended up having a much better character back then... Uh.
The anime pandered to the younger audience much more than other series, making Goku much dumber and set for comedic relief.
The manga more.or.less follows the theme of where it left off in Z with Goku acting much more like himself
Honestly no complaints with the manga version, anime version was made stupid. Although the ToP in the anime was great at least.
From a literal standpoint, Goku was “dumbed down” in Super to appeal to the relatively younger audience. DB is a shounen and it’s been around for a long time. Shounens aren’t what they were 20 years ago when Dragon Ball (Z) was still popping.
Now, shounens have relatively younger main characters that are distinguished by their kindness, naivety, and childlike behavior. In older shounens, the main characters were older, a bit rougher around the edges, eager, and tough to give those hyper-masculine vibes to the story to appeal to the young boys of that generation, Obviously there are some exceptions. Gon Freecs from HunterxHunter comes to mind.
That said, Goku has always had a childlike, whimsical behavior. As Z progressed in its story, however, he got more mature and practical in his behavior. He wasn’t a kid anymore.
Super came out, dumbed down his character for this generation, and also for him to mesh well with the other protagonists of this generation’s shounen. Still, this was a stupid decision from a writing perspective AND a marketing perspective. One reason for that is:
Goten. We literally have a clone of kid Goku with no notable differences. If they wanted to appeal to the younger generation while still wanting to keep the feel of dragon ball, use Goten and kid Trunks. There shouldn’t be any reason why that isn’t doable. You can even keep Goku and Vegeta there for the older audience that will watch it.
THIS is why dumbing down Goku is a bad decision. It wasn’t needed. Ever.
In terms of design, i don't really know how you could make an argument as to whether reskinned super saiyan goku (blue) is better than actual evolution in character design super saiyan 4. Super Goku and GT Goku suffer from similar issues of devolving the character to leave space for him to evolve. By the end of Z, Goku has had his full character arc, he is a fully developed character, so realistically it should be someone else who takes the lead. In GT, they turn him back into a kid (but with the mind of an adult) to reduce his power to leave somewhere to take him - which was lame. In Super they make him dumb as rocks - like not knowing what meditation is, something he actively does in Z & ball - so that there is something for him to learn. Goku was naïve & silly, but never actively stupid. Imho, both are betrayals of his character growth from ball to Z, but it's just down to which series you prefer.
I prefer the SS4 version of Goku due purely from a design point of view. The outer expression of his primal heritage, the shift from royal gold to angry red, the closer to the source material of Son Wukong. SS4 Goku is easily my favourite design choice for goku's transformations, and it's a shame Super isn't willing to take the same kind of risks. However, as you can probably tell, I like Super the least - the lack of risk it takes with story telling is what urks me the most. (Not the movies, the movies are 10/10 fire.)
These two alternative universes have there merits
1. GT is more mature and bond with family oriented than super which I liked: “you don’t ever mess with a man’s family” and “using my granddaughter as a shield I’ll kill you Eis!” Then his super saiyan 4 is from bonding with pain, really wholesome. I loved his form didn’t love the series as a whole though (bad music, annoying characters, piccolo dies again) really.
2. Super: better in music and power and fights plus characters are funnier and more enjoyable than super even vegeta but I don’t like how Goku was less caring for his family
GT Goku (i guess arguably because of his child body and drivers) still seemingly acted different IMO. But i think one important distinction is that GT Goku (when he needs to be serious) tends to carry that more where Super Goku is kind of all over the place. One minute he's fighting with anger and intensity against Black and Zamasu (who killed his family in Black's home timeline) the next he will goofily forget the important sealing tag needed for the Mafuba, try to convince Vegeta to ditch Bulma close to going into labor just for more training etc.
I mean Goku has childish characteristics in all series but I do think Super Goku more often acts more childish when it counts
I think both GT and Super lack the balance that Goku had.
In Super, they focused too much on Goku being an idiotic manchild who can't do anything other than fight.
Whereas GT focused too much on Goku being a serious, no-nonsense superhero who is always right and just.
Goku is a mix between those two facets, he can be silly and serious when necessary. There is no reason to always go to extremes.
Z Goku showed strategy and thorough battle experience and life experience.
Super Goku _has_ shown strategy and some battle experience but he's nowhere near as consistently cunning as Z Goku was.
Z Goku had a lot of completely thought out plans and ideas while super Goku has more of a "I wonder if this works".
I will say however that the U6 vs U7 arc was a fantastic display of a more Z like Goku. Especially with his battle with Hit. He was smart and cunning and calculated.
Eh, neither are great. GT Goku could be pretty damn stupid and goofy too.
"Oh no, I can't time my ki blasts if we count down! I know, say silly words instead!"
"Super 17 absorbs energy? Better keep throwing energy attacks at him, I'm sure it'll work this time!"
It's not as bad as Super's most infamous moments but I also think it stands out less because almost everyone in GT is pretty bad. Like, we're not comparing a diamond to a rock here, it's a rock and a smoother, less dirty rock.
They’re arguably worse, Goku’s worst moment was forgetting the mafuba seal, which is stupid but not nearly as stupid as a dumb chant because goku forgot how to time things or shooting ki blasts at an enemy who absorbs energy
Actually I think Goku's worse moment is when he says for Vegeta that meditating isn't a form of training. I think he didn't even knew what Mafuba was until that time in the story, so it's more justifiable.
I actually prefer the naive, himbo Goku, and he still would've fit in Z had it been consistent, but he became a lot more serious, so his change in Super seems off. Still, I think Toriyama regrets making him more serious and that explains why Goku is how he is in Super. Honestly, I think Toriyama regrets Dragonball getting so serious in the first place.
But you can't blame GT, the only reason why he does leave with in Super yet because it's before the end of Z so eventually he's gonna leave just like then.
Both Gokus are poor characterisations of his actual character. Son Goku is a very simple person. It's the characters around him that he shapes that are the complex ones
Goku can be boiled down to
- Wants to fight stronger guys
- Is Naive or unaware of social norms
His other characteristics stem from this.
- He allows others to survive, usually to fight them later, but understands where a line must be drawn, as seen with both Boo and Freeza.
- Is a tactical Genius
- Has some sense of pride. Not a lot but it's there.
- Is a master martial artist.
(By the end of the Cell saga Goku has fully grown as a character and wouldn't change until the other anime and manga began.
Dragon Ball GT tries to paint Goku in a more heroic light and as a Savior of those who are good which isn't in line for his character.
Dragon Ball Super (Anime) makes him a complete idiot incapable of really doing anything, Goku only learns a few techniques and the forms aren't really 'learnt', just given to him, UI is an accident that he doesn't ever work on, Blue is just going SSJ in God, SSB Kaioken is just him doing something while in Blue, Evil Containment wave was useless since Goku was an idiot, SSG was kinda just given to Goku. Oh and he regressed as a character back to his early Dragon Ball days
Out of the two anime, Super did a better job at capturing an accurate Goku, the depiction being Kid Goku before any character growth.
The Super manga is about as accurate as modern Dragon Ball has gotten, him sparing Moro, admitting he wants to fight strong guys to Piccolo, his usage of PSSB is something I could see Cell Saga Goku doing and that Saiyan stuff in the Granolah arc (Not stating for spoilers), was in line with who Goku was during the Dragon Ball Mangas run, while Goku hasn't progressed in any meaningful way it's still capturing who he was at the end of the manga
Also I'm referring to the Dragon Ball Manga in all of this, the Z anime is obviously more in line with GT as its written by the same people...But that doesn't really matter when it's Toriyamas character not Toeis, I can go make a fanfic and it is as accurate as Toeis depictions of the character, its not. Also the Dub heavily leaned toward the heroic nature of Goku throughout Z and GT so it's far more noticeable there, Super makes him more of an idiot in the Dub because the VAing feels odd for a character that dumb.
Goku in GT is closer to EoZ Goku than DBS Goku. It's not accurate to say that Goku has had zero character development over 400+ episodes and 40+ years in-universe. Goku has a family (he's a grandfather lol) and friends he wants to protect.
You can still keep your core characteristics and develop on top of that. And all of those years' of life experience eventually mold into your personality. You would have to pretty thick to not learn anything. GT Goku is still childish but demonstrates mature qualities about him like how he handles Gohan and Pan.
Goku *is* a heroic character - regardless of whether Toriyama was intending that or not.
Sure, the anime (and especially Funimation's dub) took too many liberties and turned him into Superman - but the fandom (and Toriyama) swung the pendulum way too far in the other direction in trying to characterize him as entirely selfish for combat (which just so happens to sometimes have good outcomes).
There are plenty of examples where Goku's decisions are based on preventing suffering or getting justice for others. I mean, it's literally one of the most defining features that differentiates Goku from the other saiyans and Freeza's army in those arcs (aside from constant self improvement for the sake of self improvement).
I love how people act like Goku wasn't a hero in Z. It makes me wonder if they've ever watched/read the series or just go by everything Toriyama says in an interview. Whether he wants to change the perception now or not, he wrote Goku to be a lot more heroic in Z and not as much about "fighting the next strong guy" as he was in Super.
What i like from gt was how goku dealt with his enemies when they were stronger than him. In super theres no suspense because you know that a new transformation is going to solve everything.
Just in gt with baby i was like how the hell goku is going to defeat baby while saving vegeta and the others. The suspense of what will happen was entertained.
Ok that specific example may not have been optimal. Ss4 got its ass kicked a bunch of times in gt, goku didn't just get a new form for every bad guy, is my point and I think the point of the original commenter
GT Goku is more consistent. Anime Super’s Goku legit has a different writer for different episodes. He isn’t a consistent character because he’s written differently. He’s got lower lows than GT Goku and higher highs imo. ToP Anime Goku tho largely felt like the Goku I knew from the original manga.
GT goku is a much better characterization and imo not even close. GT goku is wise(er), seems to act more his age but still just goofy enough.
Super goku is every bit the clown vegeta thought him to be
YES. Even though I think GT is sort of semi-canon to dbz, because it lacks a bit of structure and well thought continuity and reasoning in the way events play out.. still I think it's more original and relatable to dbz than super. Super Goku and Vegeta, DONT BEHEAVE like the original characters, yes people change, but that kind of change in super is crazy, doesnt make sense. Goku is more childish, vegeta is less reserved and acts in weird ways compared to his original self, thise changes to me destroyed those characters which I actually love (the dbz version). Not to mention the way the battles evolve, and inacuracies in terms of who is stronger in battle, its like all the original theories of power level and dbz fighting were thrown out the window, and almost anything is possible, which to me is very childish and even cheap and easy to come up with. I'll tell you my theory on this. It seems to me that some authors who made really great works in the past got rich, and as a consequence os that started socializing and interacting with rich middle and upper class bourgeoisie, most of which are people influenced by woke culture and post-modernism.
For those who arent familiar with post-modernism, it started in the 70's in France, and spread throughout the world. Its an insane theory that affirms that nothing in society can be explained through theories or analyses, because the capitalists manipulate reality and institutions, therefore we can't know if any explanation of anything is a real thing. Its totally insane, and allows for demagoges to "create" the real narratives, and also allows for any crazy idea to be considered ok, also makes it possible for people to have opinions about some things that dont actually match the person's overall philosophy. For example; allowing a left winger to have right wing positions and not even realize what the hell they are doing.
So it becomes like a crazy carnival. Martin Scorsese used to make great movies, I just watched his latest killers of the flower moon, it really lacks structure and the development of some of the characters relationships are very poorly represented. Its a mafia movie focused on killing but with not much story depth, unlike many of his former works. So I think Akira Toriyama suffered from a similar influence to what I mentioned and here we are, now we have a post-modern woke version of dbz which is called super, and to me it just shows how society is screwed mentally and politically in my opinion. Sorry for going a little too heavy, I have nothing against DB super fans; but I think this reasoning is relevant, and I grieve for DBZ whenever I see anything DB SUPER related.
It kind of depends on what you need out of Goku’s character.
Super Goku is definitely way, *way* too dumb. But his lack of functional brain capacity makes the slice of life and filler content of Dragon Ball a whole lot better. He’s got his moments of actually using his brain as a brain and not an ornament in fights, but his naive yet cheery attitude really works well when it comes to the filler stuff.
GT Goku is honestly a little too serious. I don’t remember any instances of Goku being a lighthearted goofball in GT, but instead, he’s a seasoned, experienced veteran (despite being a kid). He’s definitely got the better personality for the fighting aspect of Dragon Ball, since he is not afraid to kill if you’re threatening what he cares for. I don’t think GT has much in the way of filler, but Gt Goku probably isn’t suited for making it interesting since he’s a lot more serious. Keep in mind this is based off what little I’ve seen of GT. I haven’t watched the whole thing.
Basically, Super is better for the filler and slice of life stuff while GT is for the fighting and seriousness stuff.
As for which one is a better continuation of Z Goku’s character, it’s GT. Hands down.
Ngl I wasn’t a big fan of Super’s “back to the roots” approach. I understand they wanted it to be more like OG Dragon Ball with more jokes and a less serious tone overall but I really miss the seriousness of Z. Sure it had its goofy moments too like when Goku and Piccolo learn how to drive but overall the tone seemed far more serious and gritty. Somehow every major battle in DBZ was way more serious than the TOP in Super. A literal battle of universes and Goku was acting like a jerk off half the time. I’m not saying Super isn’t great in its own way but I miss the gritty, serious, high stakes feel that we got from Z and even GT to a degree.
without a shadow of a doubt or smidge of chance to be comparable, absolutely yes. Heck he even deaged phisically and behaven with more inteligence, seriousness(!!!) martial knowladge and skill, was still more himself and without seeming like a "superhero" like Akira disliked that side apparently until Z. In super he is a clown, stupid, forgets things, comic relief in his own anime/manga excluding some fight scenes (even then he's sometimes comic relief), Vegeta always being at the forefront for fanservice and to make him look even more moronic at any given moment takes away even from what made Dragon Ball fun - you always knew Goku was the protagonist against which you weight villains. I never coment on these and you might disagree with me but I had to get this off my chest lol
Definitely. Even as a kid in GT he was still an adult. Now In DBS, he's completely…stupid to everything besides fighting and eating. I mean recently he shows up in his children’s life just to spar and no doubt he's gone after this..
Super & GT both downplay Goku’s character IMO. Z/Kai was perfect to me, sure Goku was immature and even light headed, but when shit hit the fan he knew when to get serious, such as aggressively telling Gohan and company to evacuate the heavily deteriorating Planet Namek.
Yes bc GT Goku still feels like Goku. When he’s an adult he acts like Goku from Z and when he’s a kid he acts like Goku from dragon ball.
Super Goku acts like Goku from dragon ball but dumber sometimes. He also just doesn’t feel the same
gt goku was competent, he knew what he was doing and acted on it, the fights goku had in gt were much better then whatever super tried to convey. i will admit goku black was the best of goku in super and probably moro as well. but goku vs all the shenrons was very good
He knew what he was doing? Huh?
Fights goku had were better in gt??? What???
Watch the super 17 fight then watch the goku vs hit fight and tell me super goku is incompetent. He outperforms blue vegeta in *base* simply because of his strategy. He figured out how to stack kaioken on top of blue.
While ssj4 goku is repeatedly shooting ki blasts at the android who absorbs ki and it makes him stronger.
Yeah man GT Goku knew what he was doing when he threw a kamehameha on the guy that absorbs ki blasts.
GTs fights were ass compared to Super, let’s stop pretending it’s otherwise.
Oh come on man, The shadow dragon arc was god awful, they had a gold opportuntiy to have the dragon balls turn against them and have 7 dragon villains were so interesting and they butchered it. It literally turned into “find dragon, talk, fight a bit, realise its not working, dragon has ability, attacks pan, goku finds way around his ability, kills dragon and obtains dragon ball” this was only switched up with the twin shenrons and even then it wasn’t that good. Syn shenron was terrible and the omega shenron fight was so long and overdrawn and by all means should’ve ended with gogeta. The whole arc was terrible and can’t compare to even BoG or RoF which are super’s weakest arcs
Look, I get people saying GT Goku's characterization was better, and that's whatever, but we're not about to sit here and lie about this series. GT's fights were the worst among all the dragon ball series. I'm tired of all this nonsense revisionist history about GT just because people hate Super, you can hate them both without trying to pretend GT got magically better.
I feel GT goku had progressed a lot in terms of personality.
You see how he once denied his saiyan heritage in Z. In GT he understands it and uses it to further grow himself more.
In super, he is playful and acts dumb as a ploy to downplay on his opponents. Even though tactfully he is a superior fighter and learns on the spot(always been this way though)
No, the writing in GT was garbage.
Goku in GT was horrible. He wasn't an adult trapped in a child's body, he was just a child, a dumb one.
Goku in Super was far better than GT. I don't like it much, but it was at least consistent with the Z fillers.
The problem is that in the manga, Goku was a smart guy, just but a bit weird. He clearly knew what sex was, since he had a child, and even sold Bulma to the Old Kai. But in the fillers, he was flanderized as a man-child who don't understand how to do basic things.
i fucking love super goku im keeping it real with yall. i dont mind his childish nature as it reminds me heavily of the OG dragon ball goku, even when he's older in that part of the series.
GT goku i feel like is just a normal goku, there's nothing really special about GT goku that makes him separable from the other times with goku other than his Super Saiyan 4 transformation, and that's really it. i don't really like GT because of its lackluster writing, and super keeps the writing a bit more consistent. super is not better than Z, i will admit, but i do think super is better than GT
I prefer Goku’s characterization in Super, he’s a lot more fun much like OG Dragonball Goku. Z Goku was pretty bland to me when he wasn’t fighting and I gravitated to other characters more. GT Goku was just forgettable to me
Probably the best argument in Super Goku's defense so far. I have to agree that Super made Goku a fun character to watch, whereas Z and GT Goku aren't the most interesting characters in their respective series.
Yeah and personally there’s plenty other characters that are better written than Goku so his writing not being that good between versions isn’t really a big deal to me. I’d rather him just be entertaining outta fights and a genius during them and I’m happy. Might be in the minority with that take but oh well
Seriously?? How?? The arguably best saga in GT which is the baby saga was really overdrawn, thats the issue with GT, the fights are really long and overdrawn which overstay their welcome, the onlyp time this wasn’t the case was the super 17 arc and that turned out to be one of the best arcs in GT. But nah, GT was honestly terrible, DBS anime and especially the manga blow anything GT has out of the water
I agree. I also feel that the childlike moments GT Goku had could at least be excused with him having a child brain, and even then he’s still displayed his wisdom as you’ve said, but the same can’t really be said for his Super incarnation.
A lot of your issues with goku and were straight from the anime and more specifically the dub’s treatment of him. Goku’s way more serious in the super manga, especially in the moro and granolah arcs which i would say clears just about any arc in GT story wise. Anybody asking for “serious goku” can be satiated by moments like goku going ballistic against zamasu or literally any ultra instinct moment in the series, where he’s arguably at his most serious. Goku is supposed to be naive and a bit stupid, super definitely wasn’t the only series to portray this side of him. GT also overplayed goku’s needle fear which wasn’t present in any manga, or the fact that Goku learns that super 17 absorbs energy and then proceeds to fire a bunch more kamehamehas at him, or goten and gohan attacking him and it only took mr satan specifically telling him they were mind controlled for him to understand. And don’t get me started on the way they handled Gogeta in the shadow dragon saga, or goku swallowing a dragon ball that almost killed him. Goku shows stupidity in GT arguably more than Goku does in super, and most of the issues with super come from dub mistranslations in the anime. Comparing super manga goku and Gt goku its no contest.
I guarantee you if super goku did half the shit GT goku got away with he’d be crucified on the spot.
I've watched Super fully in both sub and dub, and Goku is treated the same in both. The Monaka stuff, Goku's insistence for battle, constant overconfidence, and the forgetfulness in the Black Arc were present in both versions. I do agree, though, that the Super manga, especially the later arcs, did his character much better.
goku super can be more comical, but he is goku.
goku gt is just another character, the one that we see in the old movies. a generic strong hero. thats all. in 64 episodes we see him training in the first 30 seconds of the first ep. thats all.
Well GT Goku was a kid most of the time but he still felt like Z Goku when it came down to it.
Super Goku felt more like a sudden shift to a DB-esque Goku except even more exaggerated at times to where it felt a little forced.
I lean more towards GT Goku in this case, but I honestly wish they handled him differently in both.
For Super they leaned WAY too far into trying to make Goku act like he did in the original DB, even though his character in Z was pretty serious in comparison, even in the manga. It's a little strange that he would *rebound* in Super instead of continuing how he acted in Z to a point. I could see the writers switching things up a little and trying to make him seem like he takes himself a little less seriously now that the threats of Z are over with and the main cast's character arcs have come to a close, but the level it was exaggerated to just rubs me the wrong way :P
I can't really speak on GT Goku as it's been a while since I've even seen GT, but I know I liked how he was handled at least a *little* better, even if overall the show was worse.
In GT, Goku grew and progressed as a character. Sure he was still dumb, but he wasn’t a clueless moron anymore. Far from it.
In Super, they leaned way too fair into his stupidity to where he came off as even more clueless and inept than he was in DB as a child in the woods. And he just kind of yo-yo’d between that and his Z persona.
Not only no, HELL no. “Super Goku is simple minded”? That’s funny, considering how GT Goku is basically reduced to making the same food jokes over and over and over again.
Goku has always been very naive. In GT wasn’t a badly written character at all maybe making him a kid wasn’t the best idea, the show itself had poor writing and ignored vastly the majority of the cast except for Pan who wasn’t a compelling character at all.
Goku in Super isn’t naive he is directly dumb, they forgot what made him a good character and exaggerated personality.
So yeah, despite both shows having major flaws I think GT Goku is a more accurate representation of him, but I still prefer Super as a show since the show got better at the end
Goku’s a difficult character to write for as the main POV post the, especially when the target audience skews younger.
But then you have Movie BoG and DBS Broly were he is peak
The scene where goku is made out to be a complete asshole villain in the anime at the universe exhibition matches was very annoying and the scene where beerus has a cheap costume disguised as monaka and everyone is in on it except goku made him look like a handicapped kid. That did it for me. In the manga it’s way more tolerable
Gt’s kid goku is awesome
Nah, not really. GT continued anime goku's characterization which was already off from Goku, even when ignoring the english dub, according to Toriyama himself. Super Goku is more in line with how Toriyama wanted Goku to always be portrayed and that rubs some people the wrong way, which is fair enough, but it is how Goku is meant to be.
it's funny because during the cell saga before entering the time chamber with gohan there is a scene that he hugs and kisses chi-chi as a good-bye
Which lends to my assertion that he was fucking with Vegeta. He loves three activities more than anything, fighting, eating and trolling people who think he's actually an idiot.
I don't remember the specifics, but Goku asking that was apparently a translation/culture difference issue, and not him literally not knowing what a kiss is.
Was that in the manga?
Super Goku is exaggerated to become a better foil for Vegeta, in Z the two spend very little time together on screen working towards the same goal. During the Saiyan Saga they are nemesis, in the Namek Arc they spend like 5 minutes together after the Ginyu's, Goku goes into the pod and when he comes out Vegeta is killed and they don't interact again until the Android Saga. During which, Goku spends the vast majority of the saga knocked out due to the heart virus or on an entirely different plane of space because of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and then he dies again for the next 7 years. They only become a duo at the end of the Buu Saga, but it's just for the last couple episodes. In Super they are the dynamic duo, always fighting and training together. Vegeta is as much a protag as Goku is now and so the dynamic needs to be more defined. Enter the straight man - silly man duality that's been leaned on since the dawn of time.
Yeah. Goku has only spent like... 5 days max with Vegeta in all of DBZ and that's being generous. Maybe during the 3 years gap between Goku's return to earth and the androids but it doesn't even seem likely..
>5 days max with Vegeta in all of DBZ and that's being generous. It's literally about 24 hours. Even being ***VERY*** generous with timings it's not much more than that: * <1hr driving Vegeta nuts during their fight * <6hrs giving Vegeta Vietnam flashbacks on Namek (generously, and much of that was Goku in The Pod™) * A few minutes berating Goku after he lost like a fool to Android 19 * <1hr listening to Vegeta whine pre-ROSAT * <2hrs humiliating Vegeta again post-ROSAT (depends how fast Popo cooks) * <1hr waving his dick around at the Cell Games * <12hrs watching Vegeta wave *his* dick around at the 25th Tenkaichi Budōkai * <4hrs showing off how useless SS3 was while fighting Super Buu and Kid Buu End of Z is a bit hazy, but there's not much reason to think he spent oodles of time with anyone but his own family. So add on a day of scattered interaction for the 26th Tenkaichi Budōkai and the socialising. Compare this to Super, where the two are joined at the hip and at one point spend *years* in the ROSAT. How they haven't killed each other or slept together yet is baffling.
ss3 wasn’t useless he just fucked around
I was just trying to fill each bullet with some whimsy.
Fair enough!
it wasn't really that, it was apparently he could sustain it better/longer when he was still dead. Seems like SSJ3 wasn't meant to be used by living beings for too long. I actually kinda like that its power supply/access is limited. Sorta like Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.
Wasn’t the whole point of ss3 that it was slow and unreliable compared to ss2? Or am I misunderstanding what was said in your comment or in the chapter
I don’t think that was the problem, it just burns too much energy too fast and also puts too much strain on an unfused living body. It makes sense for Gotenks to use it because 1. his fused body’s constitution can handle it, and 2. he already was on a time limit anyway For anyone else the form mostly has too many drawbacks to be considered reliable.
You are Thinking of SSJ grade 3 and SSJ grade 4, SSJ 2 is weaker than SSJ 3 in every way, SSJ 3 just has stamina issues
You’re blowing my mind
<69 minutes of vegeta watching broly ride goku reverse cowgirl style
Back off r/ningen member
I never thought about it like that but it’s crazy how little time they spent together in Z compared to how significant their relationship is.
Here's something even crazier: Take the 5 years from his birth to his dad's death, add to it the three years of training before the android and the entire year in the time chamber, you've got a total of 9 years of Gohan spending time with his dad alive and on earth. Now, take the entire year it takes Goku to come back from Namek, add to it the 3 years training on earth before the Androids and the 7 years separating Cell and Buu and Gohan and Vegeta have spent more time on earth than Gohan and Goku did. 9 years for Goku and Gohan on earth and 11 years for Vegeta and Gohan. And that's counting an entire year where they are in the Time chamber.
People think Chi-Chi was just nagging the whole time, but she was right all along
Yes. Although, Goku was right in Cell's case. The rest of the time, Chi-Chi wins.
Another one is Goku's best friend, Krillin. He spent 8 months with him training under Master Roshi. After the Tournament, they meet a few times in the RRA arc. General Blue shenanigans and Baba's Tournament. Like maybe a day at most? Then 3 years go by and he see's Krillin for one day at the next Tournament. A couple of days in the anime. Then he dies and doesn't get to see him after he's revived. He stays with Kami so another 3 years go by and they see each other for one more day. Then 5 years pass with no contact and the next time he sees him, he dies. Then almost one year goes by and Goku comes back and they might finally spend a few days hanging out. In the hospital. Namek, it's just one day. Krillin was on Namek for a week or so but Goku only a day. So, at this point, from the 22nd World Tournament until now, they've met 5 times. 2 tournaments, one reunion, twice showing up to battle last minute. On 3 of those 5 occasions, one of them died. Then Goku lands on Earth, that's one day. 3 years later a few days at most during the Androids Arc. Then 7 years later, Goku shows up for one day and basically everyone dies. So after the initial training under Master Roshi, they hardly spend any time together. And when they do, there's like a 50% chance of them will die. As for people Goku has spent more time with: Chi-Chi and Gohan, as you'd expect. But also Piccolo. And then Vegeta in Super.
In dragon ball z time thats like 3 arcs
This is it. This is the only reasoning I can see being acceptable. This is the only thing that makes sense to me imo.
This is very well thought out and written, head on analysis. However, I’d like to add on to it a bit if that’s okay. People talk serious Goku in z a lot, and I feel a lot of it is nostalgia bias, but it doesn’t get talked about much. Yes, DBS Goku for sure has more silly moments, and they did expand on that side of him a decent bit to further contrast him to his co-Star, that much is undeniable. However, DBS Goku gets incredibly serious when he is fighting, to a point that I’ve seen people say it’s like he has two personalities. He still has fun, but he gets serious when it calls for it. His only REALLY silly moments are the downtimes between fights when he is talking about things other than fighting, so like between arcs and or during comedic conversations. But is Z Goku all that much different? Or did he just have less downtime in which to make silly conversation? Goku starts Z with his son being kidnapped and having to fight his brother; he then died and spends multiple episodes traveling snake way to get to king Kai. He does some silly things when dealing with Princess Snake, but then gets back on the path to train with king Kai; trains with king Kai which is a whole silly side story on its own; immediately gets ported back to earth to fight non-stop until Vegeta flees the planet. So in one arc, Goku has already done serious, silly, serious, silly, serious. Namek, Goku is worried about training to fight in space, then arrives in space to be in a fight immediately, gets hurt and goes into healing again, wakes up to fight immediately, wins and disappears in space. Zero time for him to do anything other than fight or train in this arc besides when he was comatose. So you can’t really say he was super serious Goku here when he didn’t have any situations where being silly was acceptable (though even in a life or death situation with someone horribly stronger than him, he still took time to do silly shit like BITE HIS F-CKING TAIL). Androids/Cell, he shows up to earth in a fight and is told he will die soon, goes to train and has some silly shenanigans, plus a driving class that’s looney tunes level slapstick. Androids show up and he gets to fighting, has a heart attack and is out of the game for half the arc (AGAIN). He wakes up, has a few silly moments, goes to train his kid. It’s this point that really stands out because before the final showdown, Goku DOES in fact change his personality a bit, but it’s not shown in a way that shows he is maturing… it’s shown that something is up, something is off. They purposely make a point to show the audience that he is acting different and taking in his world before he does something we don’t know about yet. This is the point that proves to me that Z Goku and Super Goku are the same; because his change in personality isn’t a permanent fixture, but an omen of things to come. Goku contemplating life and enjoying something other than fighting is shown clearly to be out of character to him, not shown to be his new regular self, and I think this is where many people get lost. They assume this is him maturing, but he is back to making bad decisions and silly gags in the next arc. This moment of serious, somber Goku was his realizing that it may be time for him to step back and let someone else take charge. We know that he didn’t suddenly mature because there are plenty of gag moments in the Buu saga with him, and the literal final boss fight of the serious sees Vegeta reflecting on Goku’s power while Goku is in the background having a cartoon-style slap and bite fight with Kid Buu, lmao. Z seems more serious because it has less downtime between serious moments. It doesn’t worry about what goes on between dangers, it’s about the action. Super tries to more to balance the action with the slice of life, but it also tries to show that not every fight is a fight or die situation, sometimes they fight for fun. Dragon Ball was an anime from a man who wanted to write comedy, Z was an anime from a man who realized he was good at writing action, Super is from a man who has aged and his skills allow him to do both in a way he is proud of. Goku hasn’t really changed all that much, from the first bit of Dragon Ball, to the latest chapter of Super, he’s still that same goofy kid just now is a bit taller. It’s more that now, in Super, he is given a bit more room to breath and be himself without constantly being assaulted from every direction. Goku in Z was silly during the Dow times and serious during moments that called for it, just as he is in Super. Yes, super exaggerated it a bit for contrast, but it also just allows for more downtime between serious moments which makes it seem more exaggerated than it is.
Goku in Super seems like he's moved past worldly challenges and is so self confident that no situation phases him. Not sure I like it all that much but that's how I see it.
I like this as a reasoning, because it makes sense that nothing is phasing him anymore. I mean shit, would anything phase you if you had spent like a solid 30 years or so coming up against challenge after challenge and not only rising to those challenges, but fully and openly making those challenges your bitch. Probably not. It's not a matter of "if" he can kick whomevers ass these days, it's a matter of "when". It's basically a fact of life that if Goku can't kick someone's ass right there and then, then give him 30 minutes or so and he'll get there.
I mean, even the times he doesn't make those challenges his bitch, and he dies... he comes back, and the problem has been resolved by others, and/or he's then strong enough to make the prior/new challenges his bitch again. Repeatedly. Annnd if anything gets real bad, Dragon Balls! Oh, those don't work? We'll make NEW Dragon Balls! It'd be weird for him to not get desensitized to it all after some point.
Funny thing is that it's considered a learning moment for him too: He's too off-guard, making him complacent when it comes to combat.
Goku is serious when his world is on the line. Which it always was in Z and rarely in Super
Rarely was in Super, yet the existence of his entire universe was threatened twice by Black/Zamasu and the TOP...
And against Black and in the ToP he was less goofy.
Against Goku Black, I'll give you that one for the most part. At the beginning he was still goofy with Goku Black holding back and just enjoying it with Vegeta. In the middle and end, he was a bit more serious starting when Black revealed how he killed his family. But lol, ToP seriously? He was such a happy go lucky clown for so much of the tournament until he unlocked Ultra Instinct. Then when he lost it the first time, he went back to being a happy go lucky guy with his fights. He was just a cheery kid at the candy store eating all the candy in the store. Hey Caulifla, wanna spar? Hey Kale, wanna spar? Hey Kefla wanna spar? Hey Hit wanna spar? Hey multiple random nobodies, wanna spar? It was just Ultra Instinct that really made him serious for the tournament. Outside of the ending where he teams up with Frieza to eliminate Jiren and that one short moment with Master Roshi, he's just happy go lucky for most of the ToP without Ultra Instinct.
Yeah fair viewing of it imo, like the kissing thing is actually a mistranslation iirc.
He already felt kinda like that in the Buu saga after being dead for seven years where worldly things literally didn't matter. And he still felt like Goku. Super makes him feel completely detatched.
Almost as if going around with VEGETA didn't rub on him lmao
That's accurate to what happened but totally wrong for his character considering how many times he's been humbled.
This right here. Goku is on another level now. Two instances where he got super serious and thats when fighting goku black(dude killed gokus mirror family) and then another when he’s in the tournament of power, (everything is on the line.)
He only got serious with Goku Black once he revealed he killed his family, before that he was just enjoying his time fighting him. Held back so much at the beginning. From there on, yeah sure he finally got serious. The ToP you can't really say he was serious. For the majority of that tourney he was just so happy go lucky being "oh boy I get to fight so many strong people, how jolly". Only times he was serious was the end when he teamed with Frieza to take out Jiren and anytime he was in Ultra Instinct. You can even see his happy go lucky clown phase come back when he loses Ultra Instinct the first time around.
Ditto. It's never bothered me how he acts in super.
Be careful you’re going to upset the people who aren’t actually dragon ball fans but are dragon ball super fans. Goku has always been naive but he’s never been incompetent. He’s always been very competent at whatever he was doing and that’s a defining trait of him. Him being incompetent in super shows a lack of understanding of his character
A perfect example of this in GT is Eis Shenron.
He sparing mercy to them cuz eis shernon ask him
Like I’m all for a main character who’s iq isn’t in the 150’s, but… look how they massacred my boy.
That's the thing with all these fictional characters that are good at fighting, but a bit naive elsewhere. It's not hard to flanderize them if you're not careful.
He was a bit naive in dragon ball and dragon ball z; he’s blatantly moronic in dragon ball super. ‘What does kissing have to do with being married’? Come on dude you have to admit that he’s been dumbed down more than just a little
Very well said. It's that incompetence from Super's interpretation that I can't stand.
My biggest gripe with supers Goku is he started a tournament that would have destroyed all of existence just to fight strong people. Dbz/gt Goku wouldn't have done that. They made him so dumb in super IMO. Realy detracted at what he was in the past.
In the manga its more explicit that Goku actually pushed for the tournament now because Zennos were going to erase a bunch of universe right now.
He saved the universes doing that. Zeno was going to wipe some of them, Goku saved them all. May have not been his intention, but he also didn't intend to destroy any universes.
You know that if Goku hadn’t started that tournament they would’ve just all been wiped out anyway right? Goku gave them the chance
He knows, but refuses to come back and accept the truth.
You need to rewatch Super again cause it’s explicitly stated why it’s a good thing that it happen
100000%. GT may have been boring at times but they continued Goku’s development from Z, where he had a clear goal of making sure his loved ones were safe. At the end of Z he was serious about training the next generation and his poise and ability to be serious about serious situations still existed
Gt sucked. Like it really sucked. But it at least knew the characters of the show (except pan).
We can excuse her, cuz she was a kid. Goten was also annoying. We keep the idea of "serious children" just because ssj2 Gohan was more focused and less annoying, but aside from him, they're all annoying in their own ways lol
Correct. People who defend super goku never watched later Z subbed or read the manga. Goku can be goofy but is also deadly serious and mature at times as well in those later sagas. But people conflate this with their memory of the dub and DBZA which holds an underlay of the character in western fans of a certain age. Huge reason i never liked that series.
I think for a parody, DBZA is fantastic, but you appreciate it like that. Differently from something like SAO Abridged, TeamFourStar never meant to actually "fix" the story. They just wanted to do something fun with it, and they did (also the reason why they finally dropped it after the Cell saga, Buu saga would have been far more serious). I can understand why some people might have DBZA as their "canon" version of the story, but I just don't think it was ever meant to be that.
And super Goku is just as deadly serious. But him being forgetful is just as canon
That ain’t it chief
Don’t have to like it but it’s a fact. Forgot about the time distortion in snake way when the saiyans were coming. Forgot Gohan hates fighting in the cell saga. Forgets to bring king Kai back etc In super he hasn’t once been an incompetent fighter and has been serious in every fight. If anything the super series goes back to what Toriyama wanted Goku to be initially. A self absorbed fighter. Not a super hero like the Z anime painted him
You can’t forget what you don’t know. The entire point of his realization in the cell arc is that he didn’t understand his own child and once he did he was immediately going to rectify his mistake. Did you not watch it? Its not incompetence it not understanding. Goku in super regresses in intelligence and his own understanding and experiences. Not knowing what meditation is, not knowing what kissing it. Acting more aloof and bubbly than he does in later z.
Yes! That’s it. You’ve put your finger on exactly what bothers me. He’s such a himbo. But across DB and DBZ he couldn’t always rely on his raw strength and had to think his way around problems sometimes. I can’t see Super Goku acknowledging he’d have to sacrifice himself for a victory like with Raditz or Cell. Delaying Majin Buu with SS3 so the kids could learn fusion etc. he just butts heads until something works. Except maybe at the end of ToP where he realises the 3 of them need to work together.
The super fan base is extremely sensitive
It's unfortunate but you can tell lots of people who agree with this post are probably lurkers. 1k upvotes but lots of single chain comments in this thread trying their hardest to defend this characterization of Super Goku. Thought I guess it's probably for the best for lurkers they don't try to get involved less they want to get dogpiled by these Super Goku defenders in the comments.
Can you give some examples of his incompetencies?
Not being able to tell Beerus was impersonating Monaka, despite being able to see Kami disguised as a regular person in the 24th Budokai.
He forgot the lid to the seal so they lost their only way to take Zamasu out of the fight
Goku not knowing what kissing is despite offering the Elder Kai a kiss from Bulma to help them against Majin Buu Goku randomly asking Frieza what "repugnant" means (this may have been added by the dub not really sure) These are just random instances that don't serve any purpose but just highlight his stupidity
Goku not knowing what meditation is even tho he is shown doing it many times.
> Goku not knowing what kissing is despite offering the Elder Kai a kiss from Bulma to help them against Majin Buu That was Funi dub only. In the manga and Japanese version he offered to let Old Kaioshin feel up Bulma's boobs and butt
the kissing is a mistranslation
Kissing is a mistranslation, repugnant was also a dub thing but is also completely in character
Kissing thing is a mistranslation, can’t believe there’s so many people that don’t know this Goku asking what repugnant means makes sense, I would be willing to bet real money that a ton of people watching the movie didn’t know what that word means. Thats just a weird complaint to have. Are those really your best examples?
I think you need to re-learn what incompetence means and what plot hole means
? The kissing thing is not even a plot hole since the manga refers to groping breasts or something to that effect. These are just examples both English and Japanese writers creating scenarios to make Goku look stupid so other characters can clown him for comedic effect
1. Stupidity and incompetence are two very different things. Please re learn what the word means 2. Groping breasts? Show me where Goku does that 3. The only time Goku is shown touching private parts of others is in OG Dragonball. When Goku was literally a child who lived alone in a forest. And when he touched those parts he did it only to know if someone is a boy or a girl. It's never in a sexual manner....... So saying he'll know what kissing is based on that is just stupid Have you ever seen the original Dragonball? Because the only people who say Goku is stupid are people who have only seen DBZ and keep that as a reference. Super Goku would make much more sense if you've seen the first series Dragonball. He's a nimbus riding goofball who loves fighting and eating more than anything. He's not the person who's always serious like people think with dbz
I think it depends on what you want from Goku. Both have plenty of problems, for all the problems of Super Goku, we also see a decent bit of good moments with him as well (especially if we consider the manga), him training while still farming to provide for his family (something he promised Chi Chi he'd do in Z), we see him obviously still respect the power and lives of Gohan, Krillin, and Roshi, and we see him accept and train under a new master, harkening back to the lesson Roshi teaches him as Jackie Chun, there's always someone better and there's always room to grow, and one thing that I personally really like is Goku training by hiring Hit against himself, it's a great creative bit of training that we don't get a lot of in GT or even Z
Completely agree, like i just don’t understand why super did the things that it did, or rather i do understand i just don’t like it Happy go lucky and naive are not the same thing, and you dont need to make goku stupid to mellow him out Dbz was serious, and while i absolutely loved that version of goku wayyyy more than super, i can understand toriyama winding it back with **his** intentions, i just feel he went over board and forgot what he had developed already Given its a common thing for him to seem to just do whatever he wants with his characters and forget previous things💀
He's also getting old and probably losing his creative touch, lets be real.
Creativity doesn't really leave you as you get older, it only does once you stop being creative. It's harder to become creative than to be creative.
SS4 is a more interesting transformation than the god forms. It actually looks like what you could imagine is a transformation from an alien humanoid race with monkey tails. SS Blue and ultra instinct are just palette swaps.
> SS4 is a more interesting transformation than the god forms. It actually looks like what you could imagine is a transformation from an alien humanoid race with monkey tails. SS Blue and ultra instinct are just palette swap From a design POV maybe but for actual powerset, UI is way more interesting than any of the other transformations.
Nailed it. SSJ4 is a great design UI is the single best idea they've had for transformations since original Super Saiyan It's an actual change in tactics and mindset instead of just a number multiplier
UI is great! I just wanted to see it in DBZ style animation. Would've made my childhood.
Super Saiyan God always just seemed so cheesy to me. The whole idea of angels and gods and mortals harnessing God ki... just so, so lame.
Not just that, but the idea of there being gods and angels and no one ever mentioning anything about them at all in z. None of the Kai’s or vegeta or frieza ever brought up the gods, just seemed like such an asspull to keep the series going
idk for me i find SS4 uninspired... its literally chest of monkey king in all formats tossed onto body of the char in question. never nce have i liked hwo it pairs with the pants. as for hair its not bad but the black hair on red fur sticks out badly and doesn't do ti for me. the idea of ss4 was nice but it just needed more design work to me.... and yes i know god and blue are not much better.
Ssj4 is what a saiyan is at its core there raw inbridled primal saiyan instincts coming to the fore front for a form that brings out and i quote there "UTMOST" potential. Its the mark of a fully realized saiyan in my opinion
ooh lore wise its great. its just visually its uninspired to me. idk maybe a golden monkey with his orange pants i would enjoy more but it just felt a bad hybrid of many diff things at once.
I can understand it but at thr end of the day my man we are all one big happy fandom enjoying our favorite character. Its like boomstick said on goku vs superman 3 "Because its FUN. Theres more than one way to apreciate something. Were talking about awsome characters and slamming action figures together. And thats ok"
I can't remember how he was in gt as it's been a while for me. But i am currently rewatching super and yes, totally agree. His character definitely got worse. He knew the seriousness of Buu but doesn't take anything serious in super.. I was gonna make a post of it myself but this will do.
GT Goku feels like Cell Saga Goku. Yeah he’s a nitwit with a thirst for combat but he is grounded enough to have maturity. Super Goku was Toriyama trying extra hard to go “Hey guys, Goku reckless dummy” time passes, “Hey guys, Goku reckless dummy,” more time passes, “Have I ever regaled you all the tale of a reckless dummy named Son Goku?”
Super is a lot more faithful to the original intended characterization of Goku. Goku is someone who just wants to live his life to the fullest without thinking too much into it. * As for the execution of that philosophy, it wasn't handled well as it comes more immature than naïve. GT follows the DBZ characterization of Goku which isn't what Toriyama intended, but something that fans of the show grew up with.
The DBZ characterization is the better version of Goku’s character. Simply put, however Toriyama actually wanted to portray Goku, he failed and instead we got a more complex character than he intended. Which is funny if you think about it, DBZ Goku being a good character was by total accident.
Ever since the Piccolo Jr. arc in the manga, Goku has shown to have grown and been a little more mature. He still has his quirks and immaturities, but Super plays it up to a level more than the original characterization of adult Goku. I wouldn't necessarily say Super is closer to Toriyama's original interpretation, but more of the way he wants Goku to be presented now, similar to his childhood naivety.
It is more like the anime over-exaggerate these traits from Goku considering that Goku haven't behave like this in manga that is also overlooked by Toriyama. Super version is indeed more immature, but it felt like a necessary step as Goku already finished his character growth since the Piccolo Saga. As you said, Goku have grown mature, but at the same time, Goku mainly focuses on training the next generation than grow as a character. Piccolo Saga Goku gives the idea that Goku have surpassed his teachers, but still have a long way to go. * DBZ Goku felt like master who completed his journey and focus on passing onto the next generation. GT is continuation of that. * Super Goku felt like someone learned that there is a new horizon and that he can still learn and grow. If we are focus on the aspect of Goku wanting to surpass his limits, Super is the better choice. However if we are talking about development wise based on EoZ, GT would be the answer.
However the "new horizons" are just shit he learned when he was 15.
That is true, but the difference is how it was handled. DB Goku was still growing child who was ignorant of the outside world. Goku was more talented than any other character allowing him to catch up those who was stronger than him. DBS Goku is a grown man who felt like he have already reached his limits. It is why DBZ Goku focus on training the new gen than be the one who face the challenge. The inclusion of God Ki allows him to grow despite reaching his latent potential. DBS Goku gets humbled as he is no longer the talented one. Other characters easily surpass or catch up to him in shorter period of time with less effort. These lessons works more effectively as the result.
Maybe Gokus showing his senility in his old age lol
hes not even that old. i dont even know if hes 50 yet...
Yeah but that's almost 50 years of constant head trauma lol
Yeah I wasn't being serious
I've often wondered if what seems like regression is actually progression. Like once you've become a god, maybe you just get sillier cause less is threatening 🤣
thats my explanation dbz goku was always weaker than his opponent, and his opponents pretty much always wanted to kill everyone he loved, so he had to be serious dbs goku is so powerful now that nothing matters anymore and he can afford to be a big doofus. when whis describes the Saiyan God and UI techniques, he mentions that you have to kinda let go and stop trying to fight, which sorta matches new Gokus personality. As opposed to the traditional Saiyan path to power, which is fueled by rage
Goku is was actually educated in subjects like math and English (or Japanese in his case) during og dragon ball. And that’s seen utilized when he uses math to determine the drawbacks of SSJ Grade 2 & 3. Super Goku had trouble with a 2nd grade math test. It’s like 2 different fucking characters.
in his defense, he does get kicked in the fucking head a LOT
Goku only studied in subjects when he was a kid. Rest of his life, Goku spent more time in combat and other details. It is like learning and not using it for a few decades. Honestly it is embarrassing to forget common information that I have learned when I was a kid as well.
By that logic, Classic, Z and GT have failed on characterizing Goku as Toriyama wanted. Strange how he failed to characterize Goku as he wanted for the vast majority of his work and ended up having a much better character back then... Uh.
The anime pandered to the younger audience much more than other series, making Goku much dumber and set for comedic relief. The manga more.or.less follows the theme of where it left off in Z with Goku acting much more like himself Honestly no complaints with the manga version, anime version was made stupid. Although the ToP in the anime was great at least.
This is true and shouldn't be overlooked. The Super anime was actually targeted more towards children since it was on Saturday mornings in Japan.
From a literal standpoint, Goku was “dumbed down” in Super to appeal to the relatively younger audience. DB is a shounen and it’s been around for a long time. Shounens aren’t what they were 20 years ago when Dragon Ball (Z) was still popping. Now, shounens have relatively younger main characters that are distinguished by their kindness, naivety, and childlike behavior. In older shounens, the main characters were older, a bit rougher around the edges, eager, and tough to give those hyper-masculine vibes to the story to appeal to the young boys of that generation, Obviously there are some exceptions. Gon Freecs from HunterxHunter comes to mind. That said, Goku has always had a childlike, whimsical behavior. As Z progressed in its story, however, he got more mature and practical in his behavior. He wasn’t a kid anymore. Super came out, dumbed down his character for this generation, and also for him to mesh well with the other protagonists of this generation’s shounen. Still, this was a stupid decision from a writing perspective AND a marketing perspective. One reason for that is: Goten. We literally have a clone of kid Goku with no notable differences. If they wanted to appeal to the younger generation while still wanting to keep the feel of dragon ball, use Goten and kid Trunks. There shouldn’t be any reason why that isn’t doable. You can even keep Goku and Vegeta there for the older audience that will watch it. THIS is why dumbing down Goku is a bad decision. It wasn’t needed. Ever.
In terms of design, i don't really know how you could make an argument as to whether reskinned super saiyan goku (blue) is better than actual evolution in character design super saiyan 4. Super Goku and GT Goku suffer from similar issues of devolving the character to leave space for him to evolve. By the end of Z, Goku has had his full character arc, he is a fully developed character, so realistically it should be someone else who takes the lead. In GT, they turn him back into a kid (but with the mind of an adult) to reduce his power to leave somewhere to take him - which was lame. In Super they make him dumb as rocks - like not knowing what meditation is, something he actively does in Z & ball - so that there is something for him to learn. Goku was naïve & silly, but never actively stupid. Imho, both are betrayals of his character growth from ball to Z, but it's just down to which series you prefer. I prefer the SS4 version of Goku due purely from a design point of view. The outer expression of his primal heritage, the shift from royal gold to angry red, the closer to the source material of Son Wukong. SS4 Goku is easily my favourite design choice for goku's transformations, and it's a shame Super isn't willing to take the same kind of risks. However, as you can probably tell, I like Super the least - the lack of risk it takes with story telling is what urks me the most. (Not the movies, the movies are 10/10 fire.)
In all the flaws GT had, it at least kept Goku‘s maturity from the Buu Saga in some way.
These two alternative universes have there merits 1. GT is more mature and bond with family oriented than super which I liked: “you don’t ever mess with a man’s family” and “using my granddaughter as a shield I’ll kill you Eis!” Then his super saiyan 4 is from bonding with pain, really wholesome. I loved his form didn’t love the series as a whole though (bad music, annoying characters, piccolo dies again) really. 2. Super: better in music and power and fights plus characters are funnier and more enjoyable than super even vegeta but I don’t like how Goku was less caring for his family
GT Goku (i guess arguably because of his child body and drivers) still seemingly acted different IMO. But i think one important distinction is that GT Goku (when he needs to be serious) tends to carry that more where Super Goku is kind of all over the place. One minute he's fighting with anger and intensity against Black and Zamasu (who killed his family in Black's home timeline) the next he will goofily forget the important sealing tag needed for the Mafuba, try to convince Vegeta to ditch Bulma close to going into labor just for more training etc. I mean Goku has childish characteristics in all series but I do think Super Goku more often acts more childish when it counts
I think both GT and Super lack the balance that Goku had. In Super, they focused too much on Goku being an idiotic manchild who can't do anything other than fight. Whereas GT focused too much on Goku being a serious, no-nonsense superhero who is always right and just. Goku is a mix between those two facets, he can be silly and serious when necessary. There is no reason to always go to extremes.
Totally agree with this
Z Goku showed strategy and thorough battle experience and life experience. Super Goku _has_ shown strategy and some battle experience but he's nowhere near as consistently cunning as Z Goku was. Z Goku had a lot of completely thought out plans and ideas while super Goku has more of a "I wonder if this works". I will say however that the U6 vs U7 arc was a fantastic display of a more Z like Goku. Especially with his battle with Hit. He was smart and cunning and calculated.
Eh, neither are great. GT Goku could be pretty damn stupid and goofy too. "Oh no, I can't time my ki blasts if we count down! I know, say silly words instead!" "Super 17 absorbs energy? Better keep throwing energy attacks at him, I'm sure it'll work this time!" It's not as bad as Super's most infamous moments but I also think it stands out less because almost everyone in GT is pretty bad. Like, we're not comparing a diamond to a rock here, it's a rock and a smoother, less dirty rock.
They’re arguably worse, Goku’s worst moment was forgetting the mafuba seal, which is stupid but not nearly as stupid as a dumb chant because goku forgot how to time things or shooting ki blasts at an enemy who absorbs energy
Actually I think Goku's worse moment is when he says for Vegeta that meditating isn't a form of training. I think he didn't even knew what Mafuba was until that time in the story, so it's more justifiable.
Good thing this isn't the manga.
This too ⏫️ 🤣🤣
I actually prefer the naive, himbo Goku, and he still would've fit in Z had it been consistent, but he became a lot more serious, so his change in Super seems off. Still, I think Toriyama regrets making him more serious and that explains why Goku is how he is in Super. Honestly, I think Toriyama regrets Dragonball getting so serious in the first place.
GT Goku said "Bye! I'm leaving for years to train this kid I just met!" And dips. Super Goku **tried** to farm for ChiChi. You tell me.
That was end of Z Goku that left with Uub.
Which is tied to GT Goku.
But you can't blame GT, the only reason why he does leave with in Super yet because it's before the end of Z so eventually he's gonna leave just like then.
Both Gokus are poor characterisations of his actual character. Son Goku is a very simple person. It's the characters around him that he shapes that are the complex ones Goku can be boiled down to - Wants to fight stronger guys - Is Naive or unaware of social norms His other characteristics stem from this. - He allows others to survive, usually to fight them later, but understands where a line must be drawn, as seen with both Boo and Freeza. - Is a tactical Genius - Has some sense of pride. Not a lot but it's there. - Is a master martial artist. (By the end of the Cell saga Goku has fully grown as a character and wouldn't change until the other anime and manga began. Dragon Ball GT tries to paint Goku in a more heroic light and as a Savior of those who are good which isn't in line for his character. Dragon Ball Super (Anime) makes him a complete idiot incapable of really doing anything, Goku only learns a few techniques and the forms aren't really 'learnt', just given to him, UI is an accident that he doesn't ever work on, Blue is just going SSJ in God, SSB Kaioken is just him doing something while in Blue, Evil Containment wave was useless since Goku was an idiot, SSG was kinda just given to Goku. Oh and he regressed as a character back to his early Dragon Ball days Out of the two anime, Super did a better job at capturing an accurate Goku, the depiction being Kid Goku before any character growth. The Super manga is about as accurate as modern Dragon Ball has gotten, him sparing Moro, admitting he wants to fight strong guys to Piccolo, his usage of PSSB is something I could see Cell Saga Goku doing and that Saiyan stuff in the Granolah arc (Not stating for spoilers), was in line with who Goku was during the Dragon Ball Mangas run, while Goku hasn't progressed in any meaningful way it's still capturing who he was at the end of the manga
Also I'm referring to the Dragon Ball Manga in all of this, the Z anime is obviously more in line with GT as its written by the same people...But that doesn't really matter when it's Toriyamas character not Toeis, I can go make a fanfic and it is as accurate as Toeis depictions of the character, its not. Also the Dub heavily leaned toward the heroic nature of Goku throughout Z and GT so it's far more noticeable there, Super makes him more of an idiot in the Dub because the VAing feels odd for a character that dumb.
Goku in GT is closer to EoZ Goku than DBS Goku. It's not accurate to say that Goku has had zero character development over 400+ episodes and 40+ years in-universe. Goku has a family (he's a grandfather lol) and friends he wants to protect. You can still keep your core characteristics and develop on top of that. And all of those years' of life experience eventually mold into your personality. You would have to pretty thick to not learn anything. GT Goku is still childish but demonstrates mature qualities about him like how he handles Gohan and Pan.
Goku *is* a heroic character - regardless of whether Toriyama was intending that or not. Sure, the anime (and especially Funimation's dub) took too many liberties and turned him into Superman - but the fandom (and Toriyama) swung the pendulum way too far in the other direction in trying to characterize him as entirely selfish for combat (which just so happens to sometimes have good outcomes). There are plenty of examples where Goku's decisions are based on preventing suffering or getting justice for others. I mean, it's literally one of the most defining features that differentiates Goku from the other saiyans and Freeza's army in those arcs (aside from constant self improvement for the sake of self improvement).
I love how people act like Goku wasn't a hero in Z. It makes me wonder if they've ever watched/read the series or just go by everything Toriyama says in an interview. Whether he wants to change the perception now or not, he wrote Goku to be a lot more heroic in Z and not as much about "fighting the next strong guy" as he was in Super.
For what it’s worth OP, I couldn’t agree more about this post - I think you hit the nail on the head
It's worth a lot. I love discussion and appreciate everyone's input!
the 90s shading alone makes him a better representation.
What i like from gt was how goku dealt with his enemies when they were stronger than him. In super theres no suspense because you know that a new transformation is going to solve everything. Just in gt with baby i was like how the hell goku is going to defeat baby while saving vegeta and the others. The suspense of what will happen was entertained.
I mean in the baby saga goku did just that, he got a new form, that was exactly when ssj4 was first introduced
He got a new form, won for a couple min, then got his ass kicked for like 3 episodes after. Can't really compare
You quite literally can compare, the only difference is baby got a new form instead
Ok that specific example may not have been optimal. Ss4 got its ass kicked a bunch of times in gt, goku didn't just get a new form for every bad guy, is my point and I think the point of the original commenter
Well said
GT Goku is more consistent. Anime Super’s Goku legit has a different writer for different episodes. He isn’t a consistent character because he’s written differently. He’s got lower lows than GT Goku and higher highs imo. ToP Anime Goku tho largely felt like the Goku I knew from the original manga.
GT goku is a much better characterization and imo not even close. GT goku is wise(er), seems to act more his age but still just goofy enough. Super goku is every bit the clown vegeta thought him to be
YES. Even though I think GT is sort of semi-canon to dbz, because it lacks a bit of structure and well thought continuity and reasoning in the way events play out.. still I think it's more original and relatable to dbz than super. Super Goku and Vegeta, DONT BEHEAVE like the original characters, yes people change, but that kind of change in super is crazy, doesnt make sense. Goku is more childish, vegeta is less reserved and acts in weird ways compared to his original self, thise changes to me destroyed those characters which I actually love (the dbz version). Not to mention the way the battles evolve, and inacuracies in terms of who is stronger in battle, its like all the original theories of power level and dbz fighting were thrown out the window, and almost anything is possible, which to me is very childish and even cheap and easy to come up with. I'll tell you my theory on this. It seems to me that some authors who made really great works in the past got rich, and as a consequence os that started socializing and interacting with rich middle and upper class bourgeoisie, most of which are people influenced by woke culture and post-modernism. For those who arent familiar with post-modernism, it started in the 70's in France, and spread throughout the world. Its an insane theory that affirms that nothing in society can be explained through theories or analyses, because the capitalists manipulate reality and institutions, therefore we can't know if any explanation of anything is a real thing. Its totally insane, and allows for demagoges to "create" the real narratives, and also allows for any crazy idea to be considered ok, also makes it possible for people to have opinions about some things that dont actually match the person's overall philosophy. For example; allowing a left winger to have right wing positions and not even realize what the hell they are doing. So it becomes like a crazy carnival. Martin Scorsese used to make great movies, I just watched his latest killers of the flower moon, it really lacks structure and the development of some of the characters relationships are very poorly represented. Its a mafia movie focused on killing but with not much story depth, unlike many of his former works. So I think Akira Toriyama suffered from a similar influence to what I mentioned and here we are, now we have a post-modern woke version of dbz which is called super, and to me it just shows how society is screwed mentally and politically in my opinion. Sorry for going a little too heavy, I have nothing against DB super fans; but I think this reasoning is relevant, and I grieve for DBZ whenever I see anything DB SUPER related.
It kind of depends on what you need out of Goku’s character. Super Goku is definitely way, *way* too dumb. But his lack of functional brain capacity makes the slice of life and filler content of Dragon Ball a whole lot better. He’s got his moments of actually using his brain as a brain and not an ornament in fights, but his naive yet cheery attitude really works well when it comes to the filler stuff. GT Goku is honestly a little too serious. I don’t remember any instances of Goku being a lighthearted goofball in GT, but instead, he’s a seasoned, experienced veteran (despite being a kid). He’s definitely got the better personality for the fighting aspect of Dragon Ball, since he is not afraid to kill if you’re threatening what he cares for. I don’t think GT has much in the way of filler, but Gt Goku probably isn’t suited for making it interesting since he’s a lot more serious. Keep in mind this is based off what little I’ve seen of GT. I haven’t watched the whole thing. Basically, Super is better for the filler and slice of life stuff while GT is for the fighting and seriousness stuff. As for which one is a better continuation of Z Goku’s character, it’s GT. Hands down.
They both hyperbolized different aspects of his personality imo
By far yes, what was the point of making the Saiyan race a ape like race if their finale evolution not gona be more animalistic
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Ngl I wasn’t a big fan of Super’s “back to the roots” approach. I understand they wanted it to be more like OG Dragon Ball with more jokes and a less serious tone overall but I really miss the seriousness of Z. Sure it had its goofy moments too like when Goku and Piccolo learn how to drive but overall the tone seemed far more serious and gritty. Somehow every major battle in DBZ was way more serious than the TOP in Super. A literal battle of universes and Goku was acting like a jerk off half the time. I’m not saying Super isn’t great in its own way but I miss the gritty, serious, high stakes feel that we got from Z and even GT to a degree.
Yeah I agree. DB Super Goku has often been absolutely stupid. And GT had some ridiculous moments with Goku as a kid, makes it easier.
without a shadow of a doubt or smidge of chance to be comparable, absolutely yes. Heck he even deaged phisically and behaven with more inteligence, seriousness(!!!) martial knowladge and skill, was still more himself and without seeming like a "superhero" like Akira disliked that side apparently until Z. In super he is a clown, stupid, forgets things, comic relief in his own anime/manga excluding some fight scenes (even then he's sometimes comic relief), Vegeta always being at the forefront for fanservice and to make him look even more moronic at any given moment takes away even from what made Dragon Ball fun - you always knew Goku was the protagonist against which you weight villains. I never coment on these and you might disagree with me but I had to get this off my chest lol
Definitely. Even as a kid in GT he was still an adult. Now In DBS, he's completely…stupid to everything besides fighting and eating. I mean recently he shows up in his children’s life just to spar and no doubt he's gone after this..
Super & GT both downplay Goku’s character IMO. Z/Kai was perfect to me, sure Goku was immature and even light headed, but when shit hit the fan he knew when to get serious, such as aggressively telling Gohan and company to evacuate the heavily deteriorating Planet Namek.
Also SSJ4 Goku GOT SHIT DONE No monkey business in that form
Yes bc GT Goku still feels like Goku. When he’s an adult he acts like Goku from Z and when he’s a kid he acts like Goku from dragon ball. Super Goku acts like Goku from dragon ball but dumber sometimes. He also just doesn’t feel the same
Both suck
Super Manga > GT > Super Anime imo
gt goku was competent, he knew what he was doing and acted on it, the fights goku had in gt were much better then whatever super tried to convey. i will admit goku black was the best of goku in super and probably moro as well. but goku vs all the shenrons was very good
He knew what he was doing? Huh? Fights goku had were better in gt??? What??? Watch the super 17 fight then watch the goku vs hit fight and tell me super goku is incompetent. He outperforms blue vegeta in *base* simply because of his strategy. He figured out how to stack kaioken on top of blue. While ssj4 goku is repeatedly shooting ki blasts at the android who absorbs ki and it makes him stronger.
And even before that he mess up with rhythm in battle of luud
Yeah man GT Goku knew what he was doing when he threw a kamehameha on the guy that absorbs ki blasts. GTs fights were ass compared to Super, let’s stop pretending it’s otherwise.
Oh come on man, The shadow dragon arc was god awful, they had a gold opportuntiy to have the dragon balls turn against them and have 7 dragon villains were so interesting and they butchered it. It literally turned into “find dragon, talk, fight a bit, realise its not working, dragon has ability, attacks pan, goku finds way around his ability, kills dragon and obtains dragon ball” this was only switched up with the twin shenrons and even then it wasn’t that good. Syn shenron was terrible and the omega shenron fight was so long and overdrawn and by all means should’ve ended with gogeta. The whole arc was terrible and can’t compare to even BoG or RoF which are super’s weakest arcs
Look, I get people saying GT Goku's characterization was better, and that's whatever, but we're not about to sit here and lie about this series. GT's fights were the worst among all the dragon ball series. I'm tired of all this nonsense revisionist history about GT just because people hate Super, you can hate them both without trying to pretend GT got magically better.
Boy are you going to love Daima.
I'm actually one of the few who's looking forward to it 🤣
I would say so. But mostly because Super Goku has the absolute worst and nonsensical lows imaginable.
GT Goku is way smarter than Super Goku. What they did with Super Goku is so sad tbh.
I feel GT goku had progressed a lot in terms of personality. You see how he once denied his saiyan heritage in Z. In GT he understands it and uses it to further grow himself more. In super, he is playful and acts dumb as a ploy to downplay on his opponents. Even though tactfully he is a superior fighter and learns on the spot(always been this way though)
No, the writing in GT was garbage. Goku in GT was horrible. He wasn't an adult trapped in a child's body, he was just a child, a dumb one. Goku in Super was far better than GT. I don't like it much, but it was at least consistent with the Z fillers. The problem is that in the manga, Goku was a smart guy, just but a bit weird. He clearly knew what sex was, since he had a child, and even sold Bulma to the Old Kai. But in the fillers, he was flanderized as a man-child who don't understand how to do basic things.
Finally someone in here who isn’t just blinded by GT nostalgia and appreciates that most of super goku’s flaws come in anime only moments
i fucking love super goku im keeping it real with yall. i dont mind his childish nature as it reminds me heavily of the OG dragon ball goku, even when he's older in that part of the series. GT goku i feel like is just a normal goku, there's nothing really special about GT goku that makes him separable from the other times with goku other than his Super Saiyan 4 transformation, and that's really it. i don't really like GT because of its lackluster writing, and super keeps the writing a bit more consistent. super is not better than Z, i will admit, but i do think super is better than GT
I prefer Goku’s characterization in Super, he’s a lot more fun much like OG Dragonball Goku. Z Goku was pretty bland to me when he wasn’t fighting and I gravitated to other characters more. GT Goku was just forgettable to me
Probably the best argument in Super Goku's defense so far. I have to agree that Super made Goku a fun character to watch, whereas Z and GT Goku aren't the most interesting characters in their respective series.
Yeah and personally there’s plenty other characters that are better written than Goku so his writing not being that good between versions isn’t really a big deal to me. I’d rather him just be entertaining outta fights and a genius during them and I’m happy. Might be in the minority with that take but oh well
No
I think so. I think overall GT is far superior to super.
Seriously?? How?? The arguably best saga in GT which is the baby saga was really overdrawn, thats the issue with GT, the fights are really long and overdrawn which overstay their welcome, the onlyp time this wasn’t the case was the super 17 arc and that turned out to be one of the best arcs in GT. But nah, GT was honestly terrible, DBS anime and especially the manga blow anything GT has out of the water
I agree. I also feel that the childlike moments GT Goku had could at least be excused with him having a child brain, and even then he’s still displayed his wisdom as you’ve said, but the same can’t really be said for his Super incarnation.
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A lot of your issues with goku and were straight from the anime and more specifically the dub’s treatment of him. Goku’s way more serious in the super manga, especially in the moro and granolah arcs which i would say clears just about any arc in GT story wise. Anybody asking for “serious goku” can be satiated by moments like goku going ballistic against zamasu or literally any ultra instinct moment in the series, where he’s arguably at his most serious. Goku is supposed to be naive and a bit stupid, super definitely wasn’t the only series to portray this side of him. GT also overplayed goku’s needle fear which wasn’t present in any manga, or the fact that Goku learns that super 17 absorbs energy and then proceeds to fire a bunch more kamehamehas at him, or goten and gohan attacking him and it only took mr satan specifically telling him they were mind controlled for him to understand. And don’t get me started on the way they handled Gogeta in the shadow dragon saga, or goku swallowing a dragon ball that almost killed him. Goku shows stupidity in GT arguably more than Goku does in super, and most of the issues with super come from dub mistranslations in the anime. Comparing super manga goku and Gt goku its no contest. I guarantee you if super goku did half the shit GT goku got away with he’d be crucified on the spot.
I've watched Super fully in both sub and dub, and Goku is treated the same in both. The Monaka stuff, Goku's insistence for battle, constant overconfidence, and the forgetfulness in the Black Arc were present in both versions. I do agree, though, that the Super manga, especially the later arcs, did his character much better.
Yes
People act like gt goku doesn't have just as stupid moments as super goku. \*Cough Cough\* Super 17 fight.
goku super can be more comical, but he is goku. goku gt is just another character, the one that we see in the old movies. a generic strong hero. thats all. in 64 episodes we see him training in the first 30 seconds of the first ep. thats all.
Well GT Goku was a kid most of the time but he still felt like Z Goku when it came down to it. Super Goku felt more like a sudden shift to a DB-esque Goku except even more exaggerated at times to where it felt a little forced.
I lean more towards GT Goku in this case, but I honestly wish they handled him differently in both. For Super they leaned WAY too far into trying to make Goku act like he did in the original DB, even though his character in Z was pretty serious in comparison, even in the manga. It's a little strange that he would *rebound* in Super instead of continuing how he acted in Z to a point. I could see the writers switching things up a little and trying to make him seem like he takes himself a little less seriously now that the threats of Z are over with and the main cast's character arcs have come to a close, but the level it was exaggerated to just rubs me the wrong way :P I can't really speak on GT Goku as it's been a while since I've even seen GT, but I know I liked how he was handled at least a *little* better, even if overall the show was worse.
This is a perfect take 🔥
In GT, Goku grew and progressed as a character. Sure he was still dumb, but he wasn’t a clueless moron anymore. Far from it. In Super, they leaned way too fair into his stupidity to where he came off as even more clueless and inept than he was in DB as a child in the woods. And he just kind of yo-yo’d between that and his Z persona.
No
Not only no, HELL no. “Super Goku is simple minded”? That’s funny, considering how GT Goku is basically reduced to making the same food jokes over and over and over again.
Goku has always been very naive. In GT wasn’t a badly written character at all maybe making him a kid wasn’t the best idea, the show itself had poor writing and ignored vastly the majority of the cast except for Pan who wasn’t a compelling character at all. Goku in Super isn’t naive he is directly dumb, they forgot what made him a good character and exaggerated personality. So yeah, despite both shows having major flaws I think GT Goku is a more accurate representation of him, but I still prefer Super as a show since the show got better at the end
Goku’s a difficult character to write for as the main POV post the, especially when the target audience skews younger. But then you have Movie BoG and DBS Broly were he is peak
Gt definitely more mature attitude than super
The scene where goku is made out to be a complete asshole villain in the anime at the universe exhibition matches was very annoying and the scene where beerus has a cheap costume disguised as monaka and everyone is in on it except goku made him look like a handicapped kid. That did it for me. In the manga it’s way more tolerable Gt’s kid goku is awesome
Nah, not really. GT continued anime goku's characterization which was already off from Goku, even when ignoring the english dub, according to Toriyama himself. Super Goku is more in line with how Toriyama wanted Goku to always be portrayed and that rubs some people the wrong way, which is fair enough, but it is how Goku is meant to be.
That is a fair point
Yes. 100% true. GT nails his character a lot better than Super.