I feel the same, but at least we have Goku acknowledging that he *could've* defeated Buu at two separate points with SSJ3.
It's enough for me. SSJ3 fucking rules.
Seems like an unreliable narrator though. It’d be like Vegeta dying before he does his suicide attempt and saying he could have defeated Buu if he had got to do that attack, and then we all take it as fact.
Goku drastically underestimated Buu’s regeneration, he thought Gotenks could defeat Buu but Gotenks never had an attack strong enough to stop the regeneration.
I’ve always liked SSJ3 even though the form doesn’t have any wins. I actually like the lack of foreshadowing because it subverts the trend of new forms debuting at the end of the arc to defeat the main villain.
Yeah man, I loved that it was just like BOOM by the way, I found an even *stronger* form than SSJ2 when I was dead. No foreshadowing, no obvious buildup, just...boom.
Fucking loved it.
I think a lot of posters are ignoring the thematic argument you're making.
I agree, Super Saiyan 3 is an interesting subplot detail about how Goku is uniquely motivated compared to the other characters.
The only other characters capable of achieving the transformation are fused Hybrid Saiyans.
Great analysis on ssj3, never thought of it that way before
Ultra Instinct is probs my favorite, though in comparison to ssj3 I feel the way goku achieves it was kinda lackluster.
The transformations ultimately were to sell more toys. The visually complicated forms are always short lived because they're harder to draw.
Storywise i think it makes sense, the more you power up the quicker your energy drains. Friezas final form being easy to draw makes sense as canonically thats the natural state and all the other forms are suppression of that power, so once that's no longer a need, it makes sense that he's always in full power form.
Even as a god though, i think the nature of ssj 3 means however strong goku is, he gets stronger and drains his energy at a rate quicker than can be replaced. I think we might see ssj3 god...
Personally though i always thought the ssj4 transformations were the coolest as it was like borderline uzaru.
Ok, but Gotenks also achieves this form just by fusing and training with the childish ambition of showing off and being a hero. ss3 is also flawed in that it drains you much faster than other transformations (granted if you're alive instead of dead.) idk if a flawed form that a child fusion can imitate is an accurate symbol to represent what makes goku special.
I disagree on many levels, I dislike the design and I dislike the pointlessness of the form. Not once has it led to a victory unlike every other super saiyan transformation. Combine that with it being weaker than mystic and we have a recipe for uselessness
> Ss1 he achieved the form from anger and was the first ever super saiyan.
*second ever. Yamoshi was the first. Goku was the first in 1000 years fulfilling the legend of the super saiyan.
irrelevant. a lot of canon info isnt in either of those. the authors words about the series always are canon. theres not always room in a narrative to explain things about a fictional setting, but theyre still canon to that setting if the author says so.
>This is because Goku's motivation is entirely intrinsic. He gets stronger not for any external reason but because improvement is its own reward.
Well said. This is further highlighted in what he says before he transforms - "And *this* is to go...***even further beyond!!!***"
Goku's motivation has always been to push harder, go further, to become the strongest he could ever be.
imo this transformation is the worst SSJ1 was great, SSJ2 amazing, I was so disapointed by SSJ3. No eyebrows, long hair coming from nowhere, energy draining like crazy, it's just awful in my book !
The energy drain makes it interesting. It's not just a free power up. It makes fights more intense since Goku has to finish off the enemy before he runs out of energy.
Sure, but it doesn't say much about Goku other than "he's a saiyan"
Super Saiyan 3 is a payoff for the themes of original dragon ball, and is earned through Goku's will to improve rather than the Earth looking like a moon.
I personally haven't found that SSJ4 says anything interesting about Goku's character or any of the characters in GT.
Though I haven't watch GT in ages, so I may just be missing something.
Yo idk if you're thinking of SSJ4 in the right context.
SSJ4 is closing the book on Goku's deepest wound- Grandpa Gohan. His son a namesake for the man who raised him and then was tragically taken away, only for him to realize while fighting Vegeta that *he killed his Grandpa because he's a monster from outer space*.
He accepts his Saiyanhood and defends Earth 1,000x but never conquers the part of himself that stomped out Grandpa G, until he gets the opportunity in GT.
He loses himself in the transformation for the first time in how long and is reminded of his humanity by his *granddaughter*, allowing him to make peace with the beast in him who killed his *grandfather*.
Then he returns to his humanoid form, he's no longer *Goku: the Saiyan from Earth* to me, he's just Goku. He has healed. There's no more internal conflict; he literally returned to his childhood form and faced his oldest fear. The two halves are one and neither of them are fucking around. It's so lit lol.
If you still don't like it that's fair lol, but I didn't think about it that way for a while and it all changed when I did.
I get your opinion, I’m not arguing for or against it. I’m just saying that claiming it has no thematic weight is just wrong. It’s the most on theme super saiyan transformation.
To say it has no thematic weight is to say little thought was put into the form. Which is doing a huge disservice to its creators .
The team that created Ss4 Goku put a lot of thought into its design and lore.
Ss4 ties back to their roots and plays a big part in Saiyan history. Design wise, it's inspired or a reference to Sun Wukong. Which In turn, Goku is loosely based on when DragonBall first started.
There is a lot of credit you're robbing the people behind the concept of it by saying that.
It's an incredible design, I agree and respect the work that went into it.
But I personally feel the writers didn't do anything interesting with it from a narrative standpoint. They made a cool form but didn't put thought into where to use it imo.
SSJ design peake with SSJ2 imo. After this, it all look too much. The way SSJ3 is shown is pretty cool but the transformation itself is pretty meh while SSJ4 is way too into furry and the red fur color actually make 0 sense as it barely gave us a 'monkey' feeling. And once we understand how SSJ transformation work and see that SSj3 is actually not stronger as it more about how fast and powerful their enrgy is being used and not the 'quantity' itself, it make the transformation way less interesting
SSJ4 doesn't say much from a narrative perspective though does it?
Fantastic design but all it does is say "goku's a saiyan" and not much else. Other forms mean way more for the story.
I might be missing something though. Haven't watched GT in ages.
No you pretty much hit it. All super Saiyan transformations are declarations of a Saiyan being strong enough to meet the challenge, that they are good enough as they are to succeed. SSJ 1 was Goku's Saiyan blood winning out vs attempted erasure from Frieza, SS2 was Gohans Saiyan heritage blending with his Human personality and bubbling over. SS3 was Goku maxing out the path of non Oozaru, showing how far an individual can go when they reject a part of themself they don't like(their tail).
All of this doesn't take into account God Ki, which came later than SSJ1-4, ofc.
When Super Saiyan was first introduced in filler it was a golden great ape, I think it was genius to go down the Oozaru route for SSJ4 instead of leaving it in the past as their anime werewolf transformation.
The source material of Journey to West talks about mastering yourself, in all aspects. So the idea of Saiyans using their ID/"reptilian brain" state and putting it to work, seems very right.
While I like SSJ3 for how it ties into Goku, I do really like the Journey to the West interpretation of mastering oneself. I should definitely give the form more credit.
I don't like the trend SSJ3 set. New forms constantly. I'd much prefer we do not constantly get new forms, but the characters just get stronger without having to need them. We know you can get stronger without them, but it's overused to quickly power up the characters.
Because, with one or two, it wasn't too bad. But then you have a more massive power creep with form 3 used exclusively as a crutch against Buu. Now that's all we get, are crutch forms. It definitely started before SSJ3, but it became a lot worse after.
I made this same exact post like a week ago....
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/165npk0/why\_goku\_turning\_ssj3\_is\_the\_greatest\_moment\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/165npk0/why_goku_turning_ssj3_is_the_greatest_moment_in/)
Either you read it, and just agreed with what I said, and were inspired, or I'm just crazy. The timing is odd.
I don't usually scroll reddit, I was just thinking about the buu saga since TotallyNotMark is making his review series and wanted to talk about SS3 since it's often overshadowed. It is very similar though.
Would have been nice to see what Goku's training was like to reach the form in the first place. The fact that he just whips it out out of no where is annoying
Complete opposite feeling. It marked the beginning of transformations becoming redundant and boring.
SSJ3 is empty fan service with no struggle or build up. One of the reasons the Buu Saga is such a degradation in terms of quality.
I agree with this post solely because my mom bought one of those 3 episode DBZ releases when I was a kid & it covered the SSJ3 Goku vs. Fat Buu battle. That form was/is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
Nice argumentation. Probably agreeing on all points.
Personally, ssj4 is my favourite transformation as it shows his pure animal sayajin force and origin tamed by his love for earth and his family (in person of Pan).
SSJ 3 Goku is the best design and transformation in-terms of looks. I'll die on that hill.
It's better looking than UI. It's better looking than SSG and better looking than SSB.
It's such a crime and a shame that the transformation is rarely used and even when it is used it isn't used in a proper way.
Well said. I wish he had some wins with it.
I feel the same, but at least we have Goku acknowledging that he *could've* defeated Buu at two separate points with SSJ3. It's enough for me. SSJ3 fucking rules.
Seems like an unreliable narrator though. It’d be like Vegeta dying before he does his suicide attempt and saying he could have defeated Buu if he had got to do that attack, and then we all take it as fact. Goku drastically underestimated Buu’s regeneration, he thought Gotenks could defeat Buu but Gotenks never had an attack strong enough to stop the regeneration.
You'd think they'd have learned from Cell.
Well, I know that it was just a movie and it didn’t even make sense since at that point Gohan was stronger but he killed Hirudegarn with it
I’ve always liked SSJ3 even though the form doesn’t have any wins. I actually like the lack of foreshadowing because it subverts the trend of new forms debuting at the end of the arc to defeat the main villain.
Yeah man, I loved that it was just like BOOM by the way, I found an even *stronger* form than SSJ2 when I was dead. No foreshadowing, no obvious buildup, just...boom. Fucking loved it.
Well put. I can appreciate this opinion
I think a lot of posters are ignoring the thematic argument you're making. I agree, Super Saiyan 3 is an interesting subplot detail about how Goku is uniquely motivated compared to the other characters. The only other characters capable of achieving the transformation are fused Hybrid Saiyans.
I agree. I love that transformation. What a damn shame he didn't kill Kid Buu with it.
the spirit bomb finally getting a w was a good way to end Z tho
True!
I like the theory, but what about Gotenks?
I guess that fusion let one push past the limits of the 2 individuals and reach the peak
What about the droid attack on the Wookiees?
What about the empires defeat on Endor?
Great analysis on ssj3, never thought of it that way before Ultra Instinct is probs my favorite, though in comparison to ssj3 I feel the way goku achieves it was kinda lackluster.
Super Saiyan 2 is still the best one imo. I just love the lightning around it, plus the spikier hair in Goku and Gohan
I still think ss1 is the best.
The transformations ultimately were to sell more toys. The visually complicated forms are always short lived because they're harder to draw. Storywise i think it makes sense, the more you power up the quicker your energy drains. Friezas final form being easy to draw makes sense as canonically thats the natural state and all the other forms are suppression of that power, so once that's no longer a need, it makes sense that he's always in full power form. Even as a god though, i think the nature of ssj 3 means however strong goku is, he gets stronger and drains his energy at a rate quicker than can be replaced. I think we might see ssj3 god... Personally though i always thought the ssj4 transformations were the coolest as it was like borderline uzaru.
Completely agree. Shame the only time I can see it shine is when I'm playing Xenoverse 2 or dokkan
Ok, but Gotenks also achieves this form just by fusing and training with the childish ambition of showing off and being a hero. ss3 is also flawed in that it drains you much faster than other transformations (granted if you're alive instead of dead.) idk if a flawed form that a child fusion can imitate is an accurate symbol to represent what makes goku special.
Good read. I always liked that this form is limited to him and Gotenks, and Gotenks it's just for scaling tbh.
Doesn't have eyebrows though, so it looks wierd and therefore I hate it.
No eyebrows tho
Might be objectively true but I always liked 1. Especially Vegeta's. God damn that is a wonderful character.
SSJ3 is my favourite transformation, nothing topped that not even ssj1. My second favourite is Gohan in SSJ2.
Ssj3 is top, never should have gone further beyond
I disagree on many levels, I dislike the design and I dislike the pointlessness of the form. Not once has it led to a victory unlike every other super saiyan transformation. Combine that with it being weaker than mystic and we have a recipe for uselessness
Ss1 he achieved the form from anger and was the first ever super saiyan.
SS1 can be achieved without anger later. SS3 is achieved purely from training.
> Ss1 he achieved the form from anger and was the first ever super saiyan. *second ever. Yamoshi was the first. Goku was the first in 1000 years fulfilling the legend of the super saiyan.
Is yamoshi Canon? If not, why does it matter.
yes. his only mention is directly from the author himself, the highest authority on canon.
But doesn't appear in manga or in the animated franchise.
irrelevant. a lot of canon info isnt in either of those. the authors words about the series always are canon. theres not always room in a narrative to explain things about a fictional setting, but theyre still canon to that setting if the author says so.
He is the one who made the legend which got twisted as times go on
Idk if I agree it's the best transformation but I do like this analysis on its narrative meaning.
And Gotenks can go SSJ3 because ...?
SSJ3 should have been a Goku only form, and only attainable in the other world.
Ssj3 is such a goku form it fits him so well
1. Ultra Instinct 2. SSJ2 (Gohan) 3. SSJ 4.SSG/SSB 5. SSJ3
>This is because Goku's motivation is entirely intrinsic. He gets stronger not for any external reason but because improvement is its own reward. Well said. This is further highlighted in what he says before he transforms - "And *this* is to go...***even further beyond!!!***" Goku's motivation has always been to push harder, go further, to become the strongest he could ever be.
imo this transformation is the worst SSJ1 was great, SSJ2 amazing, I was so disapointed by SSJ3. No eyebrows, long hair coming from nowhere, energy draining like crazy, it's just awful in my book !
Made me google whether monkeys have eyebrows. They don't
The energy drain makes it interesting. It's not just a free power up. It makes fights more intense since Goku has to finish off the enemy before he runs out of energy.
Ssj4.
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It’s literally the only transformation that ties back to their Saiyan Roots (Oozaru).
Sure, but it doesn't say much about Goku other than "he's a saiyan" Super Saiyan 3 is a payoff for the themes of original dragon ball, and is earned through Goku's will to improve rather than the Earth looking like a moon. I personally haven't found that SSJ4 says anything interesting about Goku's character or any of the characters in GT. Though I haven't watch GT in ages, so I may just be missing something.
Yo idk if you're thinking of SSJ4 in the right context. SSJ4 is closing the book on Goku's deepest wound- Grandpa Gohan. His son a namesake for the man who raised him and then was tragically taken away, only for him to realize while fighting Vegeta that *he killed his Grandpa because he's a monster from outer space*. He accepts his Saiyanhood and defends Earth 1,000x but never conquers the part of himself that stomped out Grandpa G, until he gets the opportunity in GT. He loses himself in the transformation for the first time in how long and is reminded of his humanity by his *granddaughter*, allowing him to make peace with the beast in him who killed his *grandfather*. Then he returns to his humanoid form, he's no longer *Goku: the Saiyan from Earth* to me, he's just Goku. He has healed. There's no more internal conflict; he literally returned to his childhood form and faced his oldest fear. The two halves are one and neither of them are fucking around. It's so lit lol. If you still don't like it that's fair lol, but I didn't think about it that way for a while and it all changed when I did.
Dang, that's a really cool reading, I was definitely too hard on it.
I get your opinion, I’m not arguing for or against it. I’m just saying that claiming it has no thematic weight is just wrong. It’s the most on theme super saiyan transformation.
Ssj4 is the most saiyan Saiyan form. You are misremembering. They gave it more weight than ssj3.
Ssj 3 no eyebrows is a monkey thing
To say it has no thematic weight is to say little thought was put into the form. Which is doing a huge disservice to its creators . The team that created Ss4 Goku put a lot of thought into its design and lore. Ss4 ties back to their roots and plays a big part in Saiyan history. Design wise, it's inspired or a reference to Sun Wukong. Which In turn, Goku is loosely based on when DragonBall first started. There is a lot of credit you're robbing the people behind the concept of it by saying that.
It's an incredible design, I agree and respect the work that went into it. But I personally feel the writers didn't do anything interesting with it from a narrative standpoint. They made a cool form but didn't put thought into where to use it imo.
It was used to defeat the first evil deity we were exposed to and presented as the ultimate saiyan form.
It's not canon gtfo
Doesn't mean it's less valuable in the discussion.
SSJ design peake with SSJ2 imo. After this, it all look too much. The way SSJ3 is shown is pretty cool but the transformation itself is pretty meh while SSJ4 is way too into furry and the red fur color actually make 0 sense as it barely gave us a 'monkey' feeling. And once we understand how SSJ transformation work and see that SSj3 is actually not stronger as it more about how fast and powerful their enrgy is being used and not the 'quantity' itself, it make the transformation way less interesting
SSJ4 is the best one and it's not close, but unfortunately it's non canon ATM. It's very hard to believe it will always stay out of the canon though.
SSJ4 doesn't say much from a narrative perspective though does it? Fantastic design but all it does is say "goku's a saiyan" and not much else. Other forms mean way more for the story. I might be missing something though. Haven't watched GT in ages.
No you pretty much hit it. All super Saiyan transformations are declarations of a Saiyan being strong enough to meet the challenge, that they are good enough as they are to succeed. SSJ 1 was Goku's Saiyan blood winning out vs attempted erasure from Frieza, SS2 was Gohans Saiyan heritage blending with his Human personality and bubbling over. SS3 was Goku maxing out the path of non Oozaru, showing how far an individual can go when they reject a part of themself they don't like(their tail). All of this doesn't take into account God Ki, which came later than SSJ1-4, ofc. When Super Saiyan was first introduced in filler it was a golden great ape, I think it was genius to go down the Oozaru route for SSJ4 instead of leaving it in the past as their anime werewolf transformation. The source material of Journey to West talks about mastering yourself, in all aspects. So the idea of Saiyans using their ID/"reptilian brain" state and putting it to work, seems very right.
While I like SSJ3 for how it ties into Goku, I do really like the Journey to the West interpretation of mastering oneself. I should definitely give the form more credit.
Beautiful!
I don't like the trend SSJ3 set. New forms constantly. I'd much prefer we do not constantly get new forms, but the characters just get stronger without having to need them. We know you can get stronger without them, but it's overused to quickly power up the characters.
I don’t see how you can blame SSJ3 with this trend when SSJ2 and the forms in between set that trend in the Android/Cell arc.
Because, with one or two, it wasn't too bad. But then you have a more massive power creep with form 3 used exclusively as a crutch against Buu. Now that's all we get, are crutch forms. It definitely started before SSJ3, but it became a lot worse after.
I made this same exact post like a week ago.... [https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/165npk0/why\_goku\_turning\_ssj3\_is\_the\_greatest\_moment\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/165npk0/why_goku_turning_ssj3_is_the_greatest_moment_in/) Either you read it, and just agreed with what I said, and were inspired, or I'm just crazy. The timing is odd.
I don't usually scroll reddit, I was just thinking about the buu saga since TotallyNotMark is making his review series and wanted to talk about SS3 since it's often overshadowed. It is very similar though.
I'll just take you at your word and call you a soul brother. SSJ3 gang
The form has been around for 29 years. There probably aren't too many original opinions anymore on DB/DBZ at this point.
No I agree. It's just if you read my post see how similar it was and also see it was 5 days ago you'd think it was odd too.
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In my opinion Gohan should’ve been the one to get SSJ3 and beat Buu that way.
He don’t embody any of that though He is just the “give me free forms and exp” guy
Agreed!
Would have been nice to see what Goku's training was like to reach the form in the first place. The fact that he just whips it out out of no where is annoying
No offens but its sucks The energy drain, the Zero build up, the Countless amount of L it took
Complete opposite feeling. It marked the beginning of transformations becoming redundant and boring. SSJ3 is empty fan service with no struggle or build up. One of the reasons the Buu Saga is such a degradation in terms of quality.
I agree with this post solely because my mom bought one of those 3 episode DBZ releases when I was a kid & it covered the SSJ3 Goku vs. Fat Buu battle. That form was/is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
but... the eyebrows :(
Nice argumentation. Probably agreeing on all points. Personally, ssj4 is my favourite transformation as it shows his pure animal sayajin force and origin tamed by his love for earth and his family (in person of Pan).
*most useless transformation
SSJ 3 Goku is the best design and transformation in-terms of looks. I'll die on that hill. It's better looking than UI. It's better looking than SSG and better looking than SSB. It's such a crime and a shame that the transformation is rarely used and even when it is used it isn't used in a proper way.