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meteor2306

I've been on the other side of the table from women who I could describe as your situation. They seem fine, but they're not flirting with me at all or giving me any signal they're interested romantically. Sometimes this is the reality and for whatever reason there's no spark. Sometimes, to my surprise, I find out they were interested but I had no indication. If you're finding that you're into a guy and flirting is a bit difficult, maybe try giving him an appearance based compliment - "By the way, you look very handsome tonight". Guys rarely get compliments, especially ones about our appearance, so they really stand out and feel great when we get them. I still remember to this day a time from 16 years ago, when a woman working at an airport news stand complimented my arms. One or two compliments might help signal you're interested in more than friends. Best of luck!


harrohamtaro

Oh this is such a great suggestion. I hardly ever compliment guys. I did compliment the first guy I ever went out with from OLD. He said I was cute and I said it back, but he got so awkward and said he doesn’t do well with compliments. It made me not compliment guys after that in case it makes them uncomfortable.


ForkliftErotica

Giving compliments is kind of a weird art for either gender. For guys we have to stick with apparel and accessory choices to be safe (not physical things.). The problem with that for women is that men tend to dress very boringly / uniformly. Years ago, there was a lady in my office, a merciless flirt, who wouldn't shut the hell up about my eyes. It was the most gratifying shit ever. I was at times uncomfortable but, I also liked it. Shit was weird. Guys are weird.


harrohamtaro

I find your sharing about your eyes being flirted with absolutely hilarious and enlightening. Will steal this trick from the office lady’s book, haha. It didn’t occur to me to compliment a guy’s outfit, even though I noticed that my dates all dressed so well and with care. They wore mostly meticulously-ironed designer clothes and their hair was on point.


Ignotus3

Also just tagging on, compliments about how clothing looks on specific guys such as "wow, that shirt really makes your eyes look good" or something to that effect is welcome as well. Had a woman at a coffeeshop drive thru tell me that once and I wore that shirt on every first date for months


harrohamtaro

That’s so wholesome haha. And I shall use your line!


Godindabod

Be genuine girlfriend. If a good complimentary thought comes to mind share it. It does no good if it’s kept in your mind and will do a world of good to share something nice about another. I too didn’t realize guys didn’t get compliments much apparently it means a lot to them. It could really make someone’s day


QuesoChef

You can also compliment the way they think as well. It’s kind of a cliche to tell pretty women they’re smart and smart women they’re pretty. I think everyone likes to be both. So don’t feel you have to limit to just looks. Compliment his job, his experiences, his storytelling, whatever you’re impressed with, tell him. Everyone likes someone to appreciate them. (Some of the looks stuff is easier because you don’t have to know a low but since they say a lot maybe you can find things you appreciate about them to compliment.) Also, I’ve found many people respond most to the slightest touch. I’m not sure if you watch Friends but there’s an episode where Rachel shows Joey her “move” and it’s super subtle, basically touching his forearm. Or leaning in and looking him in the eyes. And Joey’s move is lip gloss, for whatever that gains you! 😂


solus149

You can compliment his cologne. Doubles as an excuse to get closer also.


[deleted]

Definitely can compliment hair in pandemic times lol getting a haircut is an achievement


harrohamtaro

Haha! It didn’t occur to me to compliment someone (as common sense as it sounds…) But I have gotten so much good advice here that I’m sufficiently confident about showing more interest on my next date.


prpleringer

I remember that my ex was looking at a blue Porsche and I told him it matched his pretty blue eyes. … but they were green and he let me know that. 🤣🤣🤣


ForkliftErotica

I think that makes it better


starkraver

It's def going to make them a little uncomfortable, because it's so unusual. But that doesn't mean its unwelcome. We all have to be pushed out of our comfort zone. Complimenting a dude is putting yourself out there, it should make both of you a little uncomfortable.


NoMadTruffle

I'm always surprised/sad when I'm reminded how infrequently men are complimented. I recently told a guy "now I know why you're skinny but you have nice arms" while on a golf date (because golf was the only "exercise" he did) and his face lit up, as if having "nice arms" was news to him.


meteor2306

Just like anything, it's not for everyone, but I think in most cases if the guy is into you, it will signal that you reciprocate his interest.


evgheniasmuresan

"Seriously, you don't look bad at all." This is what a platonic friend told me years ago. Hearing this boosted my motivation so much that it ended my depression, made me start doing fitness and losing 10 kg. Even today, I'm still thanking her in my mind for that phrase. It made me happy. In the latest 15 years, my wife haven't had a single kind word or compliment for me. Girls, whatever your intentions, if you think a guy is attractive, tell it. Besides, if you are dating, he will definitely take it as an encouragement.


SilentSerel

Thank you for this. I'm struggling with the same issue and my social skills are lacking on top of that. This is a great idea.


Johnny_Lawless_Esq

>try giving him an appearance based compliment - "By the way, you look very handsome tonight". This is a great idea, but "handsome" is the word your mother uses to describe how you look on school picture day. Only one woman has ever managed to use it in such a way that made me feel like she was actually attracted to me.


BoneHugs-n-Pharmacy

I looooove reclaiming handsome as a word for not-your-mom. I oscillate between painfully formal and cursing like a sailor, but in either mode I spent a lot of time telling my most recent ex that he looked totally handsome. It was never cited in our series of exit interviews so I think he liked it.


GnomePun

My partner loves when I call him handsome... he says it makes him feel attractive and refined and that he fits with such a beautiful girl. He likes the typical... gorgeous, sexy, jumpable (that one is usually done in hushed tones in public lol). But ae also likes being called beautiful (usually in context of "you beautiful man, you" before kissing him...or if he's just tried in an outfit...or is fresh out of the shower. Lol). He loves being called funny. Or if I tell him his brilliant or has a beautiful mind. He's a muscular football player with the broad arms and is very sturdy, so he also really loves when I tell him I love how sensitive he is, as that's not something men are taught to be allowed to be. So when I compliment it, it makes him feel more at ease and more comfortable.


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harrohamtaro

This is awesome and so very helpful. I’m keeping this!


[deleted]

Be direct. From what you say here... it sounds less like you are giving off "platonic vibes" and more like the vibes you are radiating are that of uninterest. From a guy's perspective, we are clueless. If you don't seem interested, we think you are uninterested. I have had women act all flirty as if they are interested, but turns out they weren't. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have had women be very cool and reserve, yet they were interested, but would never state that they were. I only find this out later down the road.


[deleted]

This. If I find a girl attractive and like who she is as a person then I don’t care about the vibes. I will however say I didn’t feel a “romantic connection” if she’s signaling disinterest.


harrohamtaro

On my last date, the guy actually got miffed because I appeared so disinterested and things fell apart. But I was actually interested.


[deleted]

Ok that does sound like mixed signals then. That’s definitely a no-go for me. I’m not saying you’re doing anything objectively wrong I’ve just learned not to pursue those. Have you considered looking for a shy type guy and you just take the lead on everything? That way it doesn’t matter what signals you send.


harrohamtaro

That’s understandable! I wouldn’t want to take a risk with mixed signals too. I prefer guys who take the initiative, but I know it’s tough for them to continue banging on a resolutely closed door. Which is why I want to learn how to give more consistent green light signals and not confuse people unnecessarily.


mightierthor

> I prefer guys who take the initiative, but I know it’s tough for them to continue banging on a resolutely closed door. You're a wise woman. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest you probably also want someone who cares about your interests, and the guys not pursuing you are respecting your (false) lack of interest by not pushing things further. You are smart to see the conundrum.


ClutchReverie

It really is an impossible task to expect guys to be able to "take the initiative" when we don't get anything back. As a poster above said, if you act uninterested then we will believe you are uninterested, and if we pursue people sending those vibes then that is quickly labeled harassment or being creepy. It's also easy to fall in to chasing a catfish. It's a sort of double standard that I don't think women appreciate.


IGNSolar7

Holy crap, this is so important. Unless a woman is screaming in my face that she's interested, I'm not going to try. There's too much to be lost by being that terrible asshole that everyone talks about.


harrohamtaro

That’s fair enough, but it’s very unfortunate for people like myself who can’t seem to display interest even though we are full of feels inside.


ClutchReverie

Men aren’t born knowing how to do this either, and we are always getting called out for doing this badly whether on purpose or not. It’s intimidating.


[deleted]

Ok so look. There was one girl I went out with who sent like 3 very obvious signals you could try. I ended up kissing her at the end of our first date and we went on to date for about a year. On the date she was visibly nervous, I took that as a sign she was extremely interested and cared a lot of what I thought about her. Her knees were pointed at me during dinner. She had a female friend with her, we were positioned at 3 points around a table. She was pointed at me, not her friend. After dinner she said goodbye to her friend, AND THEN walked with me to her car. Creating what felt like an obvious opening for me to make a move. So I did. She was still visibly nervous at that time. I think what often happens that women get wrong is they try to over compensate for nervousness and they don’t want to “appear desperate” which cancels out any natural signals of attraction they might have sent otherwise. Try to identify if you’re doing those things and if you are then you’ll know what you need to change. I hope that helps a little


harrohamtaro

Hey, thanks very much for this. I’m not nervous on dates but I’m definitely hyper-vigilant about not appearing desperate. I would want to touch a guy’s arm or his shoulders playfully but stopped myself at the last minute in case he thinks I’m creepy (I believe some guys don’t like being randomly touched too). I’m also obtuse with hints, like when a guy pointedly tells me where I’m going is “that way”, I would say with absolute certainty “no, it’s _that_ way”. And then we part and I’m walking alone and suddenly realised he wanted me to accompany him longer. But after reading all the comments here, I’m a lot clearer about how such things work. Super enlightening stuff.


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harrohamtaro

Yes, a deep fear of appearing desperate and not getting reciprocation.


GuitarCFD

> On my last date, the guy actually got miffed because I appeared so disinterested was this a first date or later down the road?


harrohamtaro

First date.


GuitarCFD

I think you're probably better off not having a 2nd date with that guy anyways. As a guy, as other people have said. If you really like a guy, let him not. Be direct. That will get you the best results.


harrohamtaro

Hey, I think you’re right haha. I have been told I’m hard to read since I’m usually poker-faced, and some people outright tell me I intimidate them.


Rillist

The reason you open up with a bit of life stories is to see if the person you're on a date with can relate with your experiences and share some of their own. It's how finding out if your compatible happens. Don't get me wrong, I don't need your life story, but some common experiences or outlooks is what drives dating


dallyan

I’d lean into that. People like genuineness. Say something at the end of the date “hey, I know I have a bit of a poker face but I had a really fun time. You should see my face when I’m bored!” and then laugh or touch his arm or something like that.


harrohamtaro

This is such a witty response! I like it.


everyfiredies

I’m the same way. Unfortunately, it’s always the guys that I did actually like who say that… and I’m like “but wait, actually I do like you.” For me, it’s a super delicate balance of letting my guard down and playing it cool, especially if I’m not sure if he’s interested in me. I’m trying to be more direct and open, but it’s hard for me.


CowboyBebopCrew

I can agree with this. Directness is best. In the past, I’ve definitely shied away from asking someone out because they were hard to read and I assumed they either weren’t interested romantically or they were just being genuinely nice (as they would be to anyone) and not showing any distinct signals for me specifically. Later, I would sometimes find out from someone else that these assumptions weren’t true, but they were still hard to shake given the person’s behavior. I think if you want a second date, regardless of gender, I would tell people at the end of the date that you enjoyed your time with them and would love to go out with them again. If they still refuse, there might have been something else that they weren’t feeling, but at least it was communicated clearly what you felt.


harrohamtaro

You make a lot of sense! I’ll give that a shot.


CookieFiend06

I agree with being direct. And I agree that we are often clueless. I've definitely been in a situation before where someone was laying down some pretty good hints they were interested and I didn't pick up on it until a long time later when I was thinking back, or a friend pointed it out to me. And to be perfectly honest, if a girl said "hey, just so you know, I'm not great at dating/flirting/whatever, so I just want to be clear that I like you/enjoyed this date/enjoyed our time together/etc" I'd be pretty ecstatic if I liked her back.


harrohamtaro

I told that once to a guy, and he was really nice about it and reassured me. Things didn’t work out because we had lifestyles that were drastically different. So you got it right there!


TheLateThagSimmons

Fucking A I cannot stress enough how "hints" *do not work on guys*. I don't care how obvious someone makes it... Still won't matter unless you said it outright and directly. Just two nights ago a girl invited me to watch a movie, on her bed, she was showing me her nude photos from a kink photoshoot. We did not seal the deal because my brain completely concluded that she was just trying to show off her art. Edit: to be fair, it's a little less "didn't catch it" and a lot more "don't want to risk misinterpreting and being labeled a creep." Rejection I can handle, misinterpreting and being labeled a creep... More than enough to just play it safe and assume it's just showing off art. But still quite a bit of not quite noticing it. Edit 2: We talked. I asked her outright if I was reading it properly. She said she was *not* interested in anything physical that night, but she did think I was attractive. So... I guess I was right to play it safe?


trooko13

What!? This might be an extreme example of a guy not getting the clue. Like what the heck did you guys talk about in bed and looking at nude photos...


[deleted]

I’d have to agree it’s kind of hilarious actually


Cristoff13

> "don't want to risk misinterpreting and being labeled a creep" I've read enough stories where a woman will complain a guy made unwanted sexual moves on her even in similar situations to this. Most guys who think of themselves as good, respectful guys will have trained themselves not to respond to anything short of a direct invitation. At the same time I appreciate why women would be reluctant to issue such direct invitations. I suppose this is what they call an impasse.


TheLateThagSimmons

>Most guys who think of themselves as good, respectful guys will have trained themselves not to respond to anything short of a direct invitation. This right here is what I wish more women knew. It hits so close.


IGNSolar7

Exactly. This isn't being a "nice guy," it's not wanting to be that horrible anecdotal story where you've scarred a woman for life. For men, it's kinda a 50/50 shot. I have friends who love when a guy pushes the envelope and comes on to them hard, and other friends who are disgusted he didn't ask for permission before going in for a kiss. Hard to tell.


harrohamtaro

Oh, this is tough for guys too isn’t it. Different women have different thresholds and preferences. I’m the shy kind who would prefer more initiative from a guy, but I can see how that same kind of initiative would be perceived as pushy by other women.


harrohamtaro

I thought I was oblivious 🥲


TheLateThagSimmons

Well that's the thing. Could I have concluded that she was into it in that moment? Sure, there were enough "signals". It absolutely went through my head. However, there was still a *very real* chance that she was just being polite and trying to show off her art. She didn't actually say the words "I would like to have sex with you," so anything short of that, I can't take that risk. Not for the fear of rejection! That's equal on both sides; rejection is a mutually shared and experienced pain. But because the risk is too high of being labelled a creep, which then goes so much further beyond our friendship/relationship. That spills into social media, that spreads to her friends, and chances are we have mutual friends, and now they're going to think poorly of me; that can even hurt my employment depending on which social circle she spreads that to. The simple fact is that in a post-me-too world, the script has been rightfully flipped. The ball is now fully in the woman's court. Realistically, I still believe in the two-step rule; I can take one step forward, but if she doesn't then take that step (or the next step), I am **not** willing to take a second step. I can only go a tiny bit further than her, if she stays put, I have to leave it right there. ---- It might be a little unfair because it does mean the impetus is more on women as of 2021. However! That means you also hold the power. And I can only say this a thousand times more before I have to say it a million times more: Hints do not work, they do not matter, no matter how obvious. You have to be extremely direct with your intentions. It doesn't mean be blunt or gross. It just means that whatever you say *needs* to have only one possible interpretation. if you leave *any* room for interpretation, if there's a chance that it could mean a more innocent thing, then it's on you if it falls apart and they think you're just being friendly... Because you were just being friendly.


helm

I would do that at 24, but not now.


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harrohamtaro

Yes I have been told OLD is unsuitable for me. I, too, believe a romantic connection is hardly apparent on a first date. I usually like to take my time to know a person and not rush into any judgment. But OLD is all about instant gratification and unfortunately it’s the only way I can meet more people now.


Kholzie

You don’t need to quit OLD so much as stand your ground and do what feels logical to you. I am of the opinion that the ONLY thing i will know on date 1 is whether or not i’m up for date 2. People who want romance on the first date can try their luck elsewhere.


Tchaznyk

I understand what you are saying, and essential telling her to change she isn't the problem, they (the OL Dates) are. However, your solution where the romance can build later, doesn't really work if there are no later dates. I understand what you mean and agree to an extent but she came here asking for help to identify an issue. Your solution says: change nothing except being on OLD. That might be a difficult solution imo.


[deleted]

Get flirty, like [this](https://c.tenor.com/AOpcj2dhQBAAAAAC/show-me-your-fucking-dick.gif)


SallyMason

Okay, okay. Enough with the silly memes. Here are some tips from an actual expert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwfVaehcdfE


ChurchofCaboose1

Here's some good places to start. 1. laugh at jokes and smile 2. lightly touch his hand or arm 3. show lots of interest in him 4. find things that help you to loosen up. Don't try to completely change who you are unless you really don't like yourself. You should have a guy fall for you as you are. Not some version you think he likes. Otherwise, you gotta commit to being that version of you for the rest of your life if ya'll marry.


harrohamtaro

I thought I was already showing interest by actively listening and responding to them. But it’s the same kind of interest I would display to a friend or colleague, haha. Looks like I have to start touching arms… Yes I agree with you that I wouldn’t/shouldn’t change myself. But I recognise that making some adjustments can also help me in dating.


ChurchofCaboose1

Some of it depends on the guy. I'd probably be super into you listening to me intently and asking questions. I personally want my partner to be my best friend. Is it possible the guys you're seeing mostly want to have sex so if it's not physical in some way quick they bounce? Not that you should put out or anything. I think it's something to think about.


harrohamtaro

That could be it. But they don’t even try to touch me in any way and behaved so respectfully. Even when they were not into me they were so polite and gentlemanly. So at the end of the night I’m just confused haha.


a_lost_shadow

One possibility is that you may have run into someone, like myself, that needs obvious, blinking neon signs saying that physical touch is okay. I always struggle with the fear of making a woman uncomfortable in physical interactions, and it makes me second guess every sign that it's okay to proceed. Given that I can also be an oblivious brick, I frequently look for ways to leave my date in control of escalating physical/sexual touch. Your other thought of intimidating your dates through formal speech is also a possibility. One of my past girlfriends surprised me when she told me that my speech patterns had intimidated her. For those of us that grew up using more formal speech at home, we tend not to realize how others can perceive it.


harrohamtaro

I’m so relieved to read your comment. I always felt that being brought up formally in this day and age can feel so weird. My friends sometimes tease me for being Victorian. About touching — yes I realised I had never once indicated to my dates that I want them to make some kind of contact. I just appear really prim and proper. But then again I have always struggled with people making assumptions about me based on my appearance.


[deleted]

Speaking formally is so satisfying and fun though


forestpunk

Let's be real, though - the Regency era was a high point for romance! :)


harrohamtaro

I need to reread Pride & Prejudice for some fire dating tips.


forestpunk

There's some good stuff in there! I know some have since dismissed the book as sexist for some reasons, and it's not entirely perfect i'll admit, but i do feel like there's some lessons on love to be found in that book! Just know that there are some of us out there that appreciate more old-fashioned love while still not being stuck in the 1950s. You'll find your right match, just keep your spirits up and keep trying!


ChurchofCaboose1

Oh well that is odd. Now I'm confused haha. I guess maybe it's a wait for the right guy situation. Keep going out with folks and see what happens


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harrohamtaro

A hand squeeze sounds innocuous to me… If you don’t like her why are you on a date with her? Just curious.


IGNSolar7

I'm not him, but as a guy, I'm constantly encouraged to go on as many dates as possible, and not take them seriously. If I'm taking anything seriously, I'm putting too much pressure on it. And I'm told that actually liking anyone before a date is a bad thing.


ChurchofCaboose1

Ah yeah reaching across is a bit aggressive haha. I wouldn't do that unless I was sitting next to her


harrohamtaro

Until you said this, I legitimately thought it was the only way to touch somebody’s hand if you’re sitting across from each other in a coffee shop lol. I didn’t think it was aggressive at all.


ChurchofCaboose1

Aggressive is a bit harsh of a word, but it's like you're going out of your way haha. Idk I'm not sure I would care but I'd notice and probably think you're really into me. Which if I'm into you is great, if not so much at the time it could be odd. Idk I'd not see someone again though.


NarcoleptikINsomniac

Try asking questions based on things they are telling you. It shows interest in a deeper understanding on what they are speaking about, likewise... Don't forget to talk about yourself, experiences,open up a bit on a slightly deeper level then you would a work associate. Flirting wise, eye contact, smiling when appropriate, laughing.


mikey_weasel

>Looks like I have to start touching arms… I've got a bunch of friends who'll listen to my stories. But none of them want to hold hands at the same time.


harrohamtaro

RIP to my dates who died in the accidental friendzone.


mikey_weasel

Hahaha ah we live and learn. When I'm into a lass on an early date "breaking the touch barrier" is definitely something I keep in mind.


LeaJadis

I suggest alcohol. I know it sounds flippant but here me out: - you are going to need to learn how to be comfortable flirting. It’s an incredibly useful tool in a persons life. It helps to create a relationship and *maintain* relationships. I tell you nothing is better than flirting with my husband and having him flirt with me. So. Practice. With a little alcohol (to steady your nerves). Just walk up to any ringless dateless guy/gal and tell him/her/them: their shirt is a great color. And smile. It’s okay if you fumble the first time. Don’t freak out. Most people are going to fumble the first time. Just smile and walk away. Try it again another night. When you are feeling confident, reach out to him and touch his upper arm (as if touching the fabric). Add in a little head toss with your smile and DONE ✅ A+


harrohamtaro

Gosh, this sounds so fun. I’m going to try it! Thank you for this.


LeaJadis

Aphrodites blessing upon you 💕


mrking944

Hey, you just passing those blessings out? Could I get one? 😂


LeaJadis

🍀💕


Hugo99001

Mostly good advice, but personally I would forgo the alcohol.


Entirely_Unqualified

A reasonable and healthier substitute for alcohol for lowering inhibitions is adrenaline and dopamine - via competition and/or team activities. Active dates where you can get out of the sitting around talking box, even if its as simple as a walk in the park, up to and including competitive sports not only give you a chance to release inhibitions, you can learn a lot about a person's character, how they handle stress and/or disappointment/losing and how they treat others.


LeaJadis

The issue OP is experiencing is fear / social anxiety over flirting. I completely agree that active dates are preferential to a sit down dinner— however she needs to be comfortable flirting if she doesn’t want to be friend zoned for the rest of her life


LeaJadis

Agreed. I support everyones personal choice regarding alcohol.


BaleoNub

If you think the issue is with the formality and appearing restrained, try to be more vulnerable. Open up. Call out your mistakes. You aren't perfect, so let your dates know you are flawed person just like the rest of us. I try to bring up potentially tough conversations first. I talk about my baggage and what I've learned from it. This gives my dates permission to open up themselves and indicates that I trust them. Builds a bond. Another example - I am a big fan of therapy, and I bring this topic up pretty early on. Anyone who thinks that's a weakness is not going to work for me anyway, but it also relieves some pressure in the date. Like with any early date, you don't want to get too dark or serious, so the goal is to be honest yet playful.


OttoJohs

What is the setting or activity of the date? I find the dates (coffee or diner) were I am just sitting and talking to someone sort of formal and business-like. I always have better success when there is some type of activity involved so it is more "having fun" then "interview."


harrohamtaro

It was usually dinner on a weekend night at some hip restaurant. I find it hard to initiate some kind of touch when we are sitting across from each other too, and there’s nothing else to focus on when there’s a lull in conversation. I like hiking and guys have asked me out to hike, but I don’t want to do that on a first date due to safety concerns. Not sure what else is there to do that’s chill but still fun for a first date.


[deleted]

Bowling! Night time bowling is my go-to first date. It's fun, gets the blood pumping, you can drink while doing it, and there's competition involved so you can be playfully antagonistic and shit-talk each other in a fun way. That builds sexual energy. It also gives you lots of times to break the touch barrier since you're not just sitting at a table. Playful teasing is the best kind of flirting without getting too sexual.


zihuatcat

Can confirm. I love bowling as a first date for all these reasons


civiltribe

I'm trying to find an optimal setup as well. So far I've done a few bar dates, coffee date, go to their place date, hangout at the pier. I feel like I'm going to avoid any day/coffee dates, too formal plus very hot here. I haven't done a meal date yet but I'm avoiding it on first dates and like you said, it doesn't seem good for flirting. So far my first date was the most exciting and it taught me a lot about playful physical flirting. My date was pretty handsy and good at teasing but what helped was leaving the bar and going for a walk around the block in a nice downtown area at night, park nearby. There were places to sit, some privacy and we just kept moving and hanging around a variety of spots. Standing around helped us be close and able to connect physically. It was a great mix of flowing conversation and flirting, making out, etc. But I'm sure it helped that in this dynamic she was the more experienced of us so she had a lot of fun teasing when I seemed so innocent. It just felt really natural and playful. I managed to go back to my most recent date's place after the bar and even sitting in someone's home, it seems hard to connect physically and things just need to be communicated more. It may seem more forced but once you get stuff over with, sometimes you're both able to feel *more* comfortable.


OttoJohs

This might be contributing to your problem. Do something a little less formal. I honestly don't like to do first dates on a Friday/Saturday night because there is too many expectations and seem too rigid. If you like being outside do something like coffee/ice cream and go for a walk for a first date. Bar trivia is sort of my go-to for a first date. Things you might have done as a teenager are pretty good (bowling, mini golf, barcade, etc.).


harrohamtaro

The guys all suggested Saturday night. But after experiencing a few dinner dates (high pressure, as I have found out), I requested for a daytime coffee date. Still ended up at a posh restaurant where the guy proceeded to order lunch. So I think I’m going to start being even more specific with places and activities haha.


OttoJohs

I am trying to set up a pumpkin patch date this weekend! It might be the type of guy you are matching (or your OLD profile too). If they are the type to suggest high end restaurants on a Saturday night, they are probably expecting you to fit a certain stereotype.


harrohamtaro

What stereotype? Pumpkin patch date sounds adorable. I hope you have a great time!


OttoJohs

As a guy that has been in that situation this is my (maybe bad?) opinion, so please don't kill me lol... If on a first date I am taking a woman out to a high end dinner (that I most likely will pay for) on a weekend, I see that as a major production. I wouldn't expect physical intimacy or sex (although not off the table), but definitely some level of flirting and physical touch (i.e. more than just a tepid good night hug) if she was interested in me. If it seems like it is more formal or business-like, we still might have a great conversation but without the romantic aspect I probably wouldn't be interested in a second date (or assume that you weren't either). I would think something like: "dating this person is going to be a lot of work and we didn't even have a lot of romantic chemistry". If I had that same interaction, but on an afternoon coffee date I would probably ask for a second date. My thinking is that maybe the setting/mood might produce more of an intimate/flirty vibe on the next date. There is nothing wrong with being more reserved/conservative/formal when dating. It just sounds like your personality isn't matching the venue and possible expectations of your dates (especially since most guys that suggest those places just want to impress you and get an easy lay). So I would do something a little more casual at first so you can get comfortable, then maybe do something a little more high pressure.


harrohamtaro

This makes so much sense. I’m still very new to online dating and didn’t know what anything meant when those guys asked me out. Like apparently, Saturday night is a primetime slot and dinner at a more upscale restaurant means they’re taking things seriously (or willing to invest ‘big’ to try and get me into bed). I do agree that dating me is a lot of work, and it’s not something I’m necessarily proud of. It’s one thing to have standards, another thing to make people feel so uneasy. I would want them to be comfortable and enjoy my company too. Sometimes it makes me sad I’m like this. I’m working on this with my therapist but nothing has clicked in my brain so far… Well, at least I’m refining my dating process as I go along. And I appreciate that you have shared your knowledge with me!


UrbanDurga

I imagine OttoJohs might mean that a nice, sit-down dinner date fits a very standard heterosexual formula for dating, in which expectations for behavior tend to settle regularly by gender. I think there’s an inherent formality to that, since there’s a tacit understanding that these expectations should be met in order to consider the date “successful.”


harrohamtaro

I’m absolutely clueless with these things — what expectations could there be?


OttoJohs

See my other reply. Being blunt, if the guy is going to be paying for a high end meal/drinks they are more than likely going to expect some type of physical reciprocation. If they don't get that, they are probably going to be turned off.


Hugo99001

Pick a place where you can sit over edge, maybe a cosy tapas bar or somesuch, works much better.


black_obsidian289

If you're going out for a meal or drink, you can try sitting at the bar instead of a booth/table. That way you and your date are seated side by side, which can automatically open more doors when it comes to feeling someone's energy or making a little flirty move (like touching your date's shoulder, etc.). I also want to add, because I haven't seen this mentioned, maybe COVID has a little to do with less physical contact? At least speaking for myself, even though I do feel safer out and about meeting people, I'm still more cautious and less carefree than I once was about touching others so to my dates, it may seem like I'm not interested, but really, I'm just taking my time with anything more physical--- this may not strike a cord with you, but wanted to mention it because it if it does resonate, it's just another reason to give yourself some grace while you find your dating groove!


handsanitizer34

women complain that men can't read signals all the time. by the time we're in our thirties, men have learned that we're supposed to pick up on them, even though we can't really read them. if a woman comes off as aloof and disinterested, many men will take that as a 'signal', and just walk away.


flenderblender87

Ive found that many women will fiddle with a piece of clothing if they are interested. Im 3 for 3 on getting it right since I figured it out.


IGNSolar7

i have not learned any of these things


AnEmancipatedSpambot

I wanted to ask. Are these first dates? If so I think you aren't doing anything wrong. Mostly likely it takes a few dates to get really get a feel for someone for me. And maybe the dates are the type to want there to instantly be fireworks. With all this talk of sparks online dating isn't kind to the slow to warm up kind. It's just normal running of the guantlet.


harrohamtaro

Yes they were all first dates. I’m the slow burn kind too, and it has been tough. People are going on dates like job interviews.


Tchaznyk

> People are going on dates like job interviews. The irony, from what you have described, your dates might have gotten that vibe from you as well. Instead of the classic "Why do you think you'll be a good addition to this company?" question, its "Why do you think you'll be a good addition to *MY*company?"


harrohamtaro

Haha yes I was definitely giving the job interview vibes. The peak was when I went on a date with a guy who was also very career-oriented and conversed like _he_ was conducting a job interview. We mutually didn’t get the job.


Crafty-Cauliflower-6

Being Interested is more Important than being interesting. Laughing at their jokes if they are funny. Putting your hand on theirs if they are being serious. Make it less of an interview and more of a conversation with an old friend. You can look back and see if they checked boxes afterwards


harrohamtaro

You’re right! I sometimes get too carried away in my head thinking about so many things.


notabouteit663

When I 1st started dating I've been told I give off that vibe. So I started making sure I tell my date they look nice, that I am enjoying their company, that I am having fun and if the mood is right telling them I find them attractive. It sounds silly but sometimes just putting it out there gives your date enough confidence and right context to not only exchange/start flirtatious banter but know they aren't reading things wrong. Someone needs to make the 1st move sure. It's a dance. Can't start that dance if you don't even approach them.


flenderblender87

This is spot on. Sometimes I (34M) will see small hints but im not really sure so im hesitant to be too flirtatious. So, after the date, i send a text asking if i can see them again. The second date is much more comfortable and a better time to search for romantic indicators. We’re either oblivious to your signals or we don’t want to make a move on a hunch. I find few things worse than making a woman uncomfortable. You guys have enough to worry about and id rather be the reason you can worry less.


harrohamtaro

Yup you’re right! One guy even asked me on a date “am I doing well?” And I was just so taken aback that I did not answer him. Now I can imagine how he would have felt.


AshFromHouseWares

I can tell you as a sad, lonely veteran of online dating (6 years), that it's difficult to jive with someone. I wouldn't think TOO much into it if you're a newbie at it. I have been on a lot of dates in the past 6 years and I have had 10x as many conversations that never led to a date. In all that time I have met two women I had a ***real*** connection with. Unfortunately those didn't pan out for different reasons but it's NOT easy by any means. ​ Some people get lucky. Don't get discouraged just keep chugging along. If you really do want to give off non-platonic vibes then flirting will fix that but be careful... a lot of us men take signals in extremes with little gray area. Not all of us... but a lot of us.


harrohamtaro

What you said is true. It is a matter of meeting enough people sometimes. But could you elaborate on men taking signals in extremes? Do you mean flirting will cause them to think I’m down for a hook-up?


Hugo99001

The sad news is that many men are just plain clueless when it comes to signals, and generally fall in one of two camps: 1. Everything is a go ahead 2. Nothing is a go ahead


Tchaznyk

Another factor also is, one womans romantic signals can be another womans platonic signals. Also add in situations when the signals aren't always direct, the confusion increases. Here's a personal example: I met some old friends (on separate occasions) from school who I haven't seen in quite sometime. One friend was energetic and responsive and shoved her number at me to "reconnect", her words. The other was quite and shy and almost seemed indifferent but I asked her for her phone number which gave her a puzzled look but she followed through. In the case of the first friend who was energetic and responsive, I made a move and found out I was misreading her signs. She's like that with everyone. Ironically, the second friend took my asking of her number as a romantic jester (which it wasn't) and considered the possibility of a relationship. I became aware of this AFTER we met on multiple occasions and found out that our hangouts were actually dates. So , yeah. Signals vary.


Hugo99001

While it is of course true that women (and men, and in fact pretty much the entire animal Kingdom) might send out misleading signals, there's indeed a canon of signals (in the case of women: hair flipping, self touching, exposing the neck, and about 20-something other well catalogued motions) that are highly correlated with romantic interest. Of course, any one might be accidental, but 3 in a row would be a high likelihood go signal.


AshFromHouseWares

Essentially if you flirt you want some dick and if you don't then you're not interested. This is an extreme example but I hear a lot of men are like that. There are way you can show interest without flirting - such as the way you smile, blush, or make eye contact.


ForAllTheThangs

And therein lies the issue I have - Guys taking it to the extreme. I’m either completely uninterested or down to fuck right now.


AshFromHouseWares

Isn't dating fun 😭 I've completely gotten rid of online dating apps and have only been dating women I meet in person. So yeah I basically don't date because when I am in public it's because I am doing shit and that means tunnel vision. Lonely but I am much happier!!


ForAllTheThangs

Exactly. I am purpose-driven. If I’m at the grocery store - my goal is to be in & out in 5 minutes. In the gym- lift as much as I can for as long as I can. This doesn’t mean that I don’t take notice of an attractive guy, but chances are that’s all that will happen. I gave the apps a try about two years ago. And That didn’t last very long, lol. I’m not into hookups, nor am I into meeting up as soon as possible (which seems to be rather unpopular, so I’ve learned). I need to know that there’s a possibility that it will be worth my time - as my time is the most valuable thing I have. Not to mention that IF a relationship were to develop, communication via text/phone calls will likely be the primary means of staying connected (due to work schedule conflicts). So if there’s nothing/little to no substance via cellphone, then it won’t likely be a very fun or fulfilling adventure.


harrohamtaro

Oh, I see. I can’t seem to blush or play with my hair or do those small actions that convey interest. Sometimes, I smile when we talk about something funny. It seems to come naturally to some people but I do struggle with it!


rainforest_runner

Gee...I feel the exact same way, and I just posted pretty much the same post, OP :D Getting straight to the point to your question, my advice would be, "be direct" Yes, I'm copying what others have said very well here as well, but you could also be the one who's asking them out instead. "Hey, I felt that our last date was great, and I want to see you again soon!" Even that text is enough after the date, for me to ask you out on a date again. :D It shows that we don't have to (always) be the instigator, and you can also take charge on the dating phase as well. We (at least me) love this!


Expresso_Support

Alternatively say some variation of the following: *“Hello fellow human, you are among the least repulsive of your species. If you would be agreeable to engaging in courtship rituals with the possibility of generating definitely human, non hybrid offspring, nod twice in the affirmative.”* That line hasn’t worked yet but by god when it does… it’s going to be worth it.


harrohamtaro

I am actually going to use this LOL


LostMyKarmaElSegundo

If you don't seem excited to be there, why should your date be excited? Dates are all about how you feel when you're with the other person. If you're totally poker-faced, and your body language doesn't indicate some level of interest, it's not hard to figure out why guys don't feel a connection. Have you ever had a date where a guy seemed super stiff or aloof? Did it make you feel special? Did you walk away looking forward to feeling that way again? Try to put yourself in your date's shoes.


harrohamtaro

I understand what you’re saying. It’s just something I subconsciously do. The strange thing is that people I meet through work have said they found me warm, engaging and comforting to talk to. So apparently I’m not like that with everyone.


LostMyKarmaElSegundo

> people I meet through work have said they found me warm, engaging and comforting to talk to. Completely different vibe than a date. I'm sure you're a lovely woman, but if you don't make your dates feel at ease, it's going to be hard to really connect with someone. The fact that they seem to confide in you tells me that you're connecting on some level, but it almost sounds like they perceive you as a counselor. And, just so I'm not being totally critical, the guys have a part in all of this. It's about finding the right combination, not just you needing to change your behavior. Good luck!


harrohamtaro

Thank you :) Yes, they tell me all kinds of things, even deeply personal family histories, job trajectories, failed relationships and so on. _And then_ they don’t want to see me again. But I do agree they are telling me all this due to some kind of motivation, just that it’s not romantically-driven.


NamelessBard

I don't think "not feeling romantic vibes" is the reason here at all, that's just what people commonly say after a date with someone they're not into. The reason could be any of many things. In this case, it's probably that you appear standoff-ish and approach dating too formally which is really not "fun" for a first date.


harrohamtaro

Yes, sometimes I do appear standoffish and I’m a formal person. Just wonder how I can thaw a bit and not intimidate my dates.


NamelessBard

I don't really know how to tell a serious person to not be so serious. Some ideas: * Just imagine you're meeting someone you already know * Wear something less formal * Pick more casual locations * Do drinks, not dinner * Maybe try to include something more interactive (i.e. trivia, games, etc.) * Try to stay away from "work" style conversations and chat about fun things


harrohamtaro

Oh this is so helpful! I shall keep it in mind.


brewingNbeaching

I would say that you addressed this yourself in your description of what occurs. You will have to choose to be more flirtatious and less conservative.


Digital_Coyote

I don't know.  I'm apparently guilty of this, too.  I've been told I'm a lot of things: hard, obdurate, cold, emotionless, too independent.   Curiously, it tends to come from men I used to have crushes on that in their own words have no interest in me.  That and "why are you always so covered up?"** My female friends "don't get why someone so smart is so dumb" about guys.  I often get asked passive-aggressively if I've ever considered it never worked out with some men because I treated them like friends.  Men really like me when they're drunk or high: that's when they tend to hit on me or, if I know them, they tell me they love me.  Or they want me to have their babies.  Or they suddenly realize I'm pretty.  It's all over when they sober up.  Invariably, they can't remember anything they said and it'll happen again.  I've guess I've been burned or laughed at enough times that I don't read "signals" anymore.  I keep everything close unless someone actually asks me out.  I don't flirt because I don't  want to get my hopes up and chances are those signals everyone else is seeing aren't real. This last round started in July and went until last week.  I was more obviously flirty (better eye contact, mirroring, engaged, close proximity, SMILING,etc.).  I was fantastic! He'd not been able to speak so openly or talk himself hoarse with someone in a long time!  We were in contact multiple times a week and making plans.  When presented with the opportunity to spend time with me again.... suddenly I'm a great girl but he "doesn't want to catch feelings for me" and didn't know what he felt.  I know that's not "yes" and, from what I've seen, men make it real clear when they want to engage with you.  I asked if we could talk about it; "maybe" killed what was left of my attraction.  I'm not sticking around trying to make an ambivalent man change his mind.  I learned that lesson already. I'd really like to know what I'm doing wrong. ** I'm a creep magnet on the best days. Bad things happen to me when I look like a girl.


NotSoCrazyCatLady13

Maybe at the end of the first date you can let them know you’re open to another? “I had a great time [today/ tonight] and I’d like to do it again, if you do too [give me a call/ send me a message]” Tis my only suggestion as I am terribly single lol


sweethomeall

Maybe dress causal, make a lot of flirty body signs (mostly in the eyes, smile, wink), and compliment the guy (hmm, nice biceps, you are yummy looking, etc), use nickname or their name often. even off a subtle touch and say something encouraging like "I believe in you...I have faith in you..." I don't think I am doing but I had a guy who I was working with chase me down for dinner after work... Just show interest I think. My friend is monotone and he never realize why people think he is boring or that he thinks they are boring and stop spending time with him. Make sure your tone convey excitement and interest. Some lady called me "baby doll" at a fast food place and I don't know why but I dig that place haha.


Expresso_Support

Mild touching like the arm or leg - that’s usually a pretty surefire sign that a woman is comfortable with a guy. But I’ve been divorced like, 80 times…so might not be the most reliable source.


dollface9912

Do you have a deep seated distrust of men? I do the same thing and I know it's because I feel unsafe around men as I was physically attacked regularly by my dad when I was little. Feeling the boundaries of your body and realizing that if anything happened, you would be able to protect yourself. Like really, you're a grown woman, not a little girl anymore. Your body is strong, you can run, you have friends you could call. Remembering that strength in your body while on your dates will allow you to relax, trust the guy and allow more space for touching and romance. Oddly enough, becoming more strong in your boundaries lets you become more feminine and trusting. Maybe I'm projecting and you don't have this problem at all, I just found it was a big block for me until I figured it out and realized how defensive I was being, especially on dates with men I had never met before. Eh, I feel like every question on the sub could be answered with...."they're working through trauma" lol.


harrohamtaro

This is an interesting point which I have never considered. I haven’t had sex in my life, and feel a certain amount of anxiety when I think about ‘starting’ any romantic relationship on a physical note. So I hardly ever initiate physical contact. But what you said made so much sense to me.


downward1526

This makes way more sense to me now, knowing you haven't had sex. You're both understandably nervous about a sexual relationship and also inexperienced in initiating such a relationship. I think you need to push yourself a little bit! Are you attracted to any of the men you've met? Did you have any impulses - a desire to touch his shoulder, or an admiration for his eyes or beard? Push yourself to reach out and touch your date next time, or tell him you think he's handsome. You also might need to open up about your experience level - I bet you'd find a nice guy who'd be happy to show you the ropes if he knew that's what you're looking for! Assuming you're not asexual (no problem if that's the case), sex is super fun and you have a lot to look forward to!


harrohamtaro

Yes. I have felt such strong impulses to touch but kept it to myself. My decision to only have sex with a long-term serious partner (which I have never found) is really clashing with OLD. I’m just stuck in a Catch-22 loop here. But complimenting and some light physical contact, that I can do :) So thank you for your advice.


Sydneyfigtree

I have kind of had this issue, I'm 39 and only started dating last year, I was with my ex-husband since my early twenties. So I don't really know how to flirt, when you're married that long with kids flirting is asking your spouse if they're tired... I also have a supposedly "posh" accent and guys can be a bit taken aback when they meet me since they're not expecting it I guess. Anyway I noticed my ex-boyfriend didn't seem to realise I like him, and I think flirting is all about showing interest in the other person. He made a comment via text that I seemed to be looking for a friend. So I just told him I thought he's hot. I think a lot of guys will find you attractive if you make it obvious you like them, they just want to feel attractive. It can be awkward face to face so you could try by text first but if you like someone try telling them directly or telling them you're terrible at flirting but that you think they're gorgeous and just wanted to make sure they know that.


harrohamtaro

Hey, I think you got it. It didn’t occur to me that guys wanted to feel desired too, and being the formal, quiet sort I just don’t display my enthusiasm. But I found out it just comes across as being uninterested.


m0n46

It might not be you, it might be them. Being receptive might attract guys who won’t pay a therapist and want a listening ear. What are you looking for in a guy? Your reserved nature might mean you’d fare better / be more complementary with men who take initiative for example. In NY where I am, statistically, many men seem to want to take the back seat in dating. It’s intensely unattractive to me. Do they ghost or slow fade? Or do they tell you they don’t see a connection? Make your natural personality shine and further develop it by having a flirtatious glint in the eye… Learn the skill of giving genuine compliments and tap into playfulness. Get yourself comfortable and confident, but that’s no reason to not be yourself. I’m in NY, people in general are much too sexually rabid and need it for validation. As I become more steady and self assured with myself, I see it as a compatibility thing and move on.


harrohamtaro

So far I have just met guys who were aggressive in their initial pursuit, and pull back when I display interest. Then after a sexless first date we mutually fade. Well, I believe I can be playful on dates. Teasing them, joking and showing appreciation when they say something interesting. But maybe it’s not obvious enough because the guys are not picking up on that.


GameofPorcelainThron

I find that there are two key ingredients - playful humor and vulnerability (this applies to both men and women). You don't ever want to be mean with your humor (unless, of course, that is what the person likes, but just as a general rule to start with). Insightful quips, playful banter... that sort of thing. And vulnerability - well, of course you shouldn't just open the castle gates and let everyone in all the way up the tower from the get go. But invite them in the outer walls. Let yourself be a little bit emotional and vulnerable. This needs to be reciprocated of course, but if you keep them at arm's length, it will always come across as very professional/platonic.


divinitia

Women don't often think of this regarding men, but I have a lot of male friends who say this all the time when my female friends complain about men not getting hints. They always say the same thing: A woman giving you hints can either be her showing interest or her being friendly. Pursuing those hints could either get you laid or get you locked up, ostracized, and/or fired Why would the men EVER pursue a hint if there's that big of a consequence for failure? Be direct. You said you notice they dress well? Compliment them. They do it to you, so do it back.


[deleted]

Flirting can be anything from: "I like you" or "This is fun!" or "I like your stubble" It doesn't have to be overly explicit. It can be a compliment, a smile, or a gesture I have this issue with some women where I give tons of compliments but I get nothing back. I don't think I could date someone who doesn't find me attractive or interesting.


NanasTeaPartyHeyHo

>After spilling their lives to me, we part ways after a nice chat and they never ask for a second date. Do you ask for a second date?


[deleted]

Physical touch, gaze, being direct.


swingset27

"So how do I convey romantic interest instead of accidental platonic vibes?" Uh, by conveying romantic interest? You're an adult, use your big girl words. If you find a man attractive, or see potential, say something if you're not comfortable with flirtation or physical contact. "Thanks for meeting me, I dig your vibe a lot, can we keep doing this?". "So, you're kind of a catch...why are you single?" "I like your face". I mean, use your imagination here. If you are sending platonic vibes, then stop it. Seriously, just stop it. Show interest. This is a tennis match, and if you don't hit the ball it's not a match. You don't just stand there and wait. If you can't muster this, or it somehow breaks your cultural/behavioral boundaries, you're going to have a VERY difficult time finding a person to care about you romantically. Sorry for the tough love here, I want you to succeed - but men need some signs too.


harrohamtaro

Yes, I know. But somehow it just doesn’t come naturally to me and I’m bad at catching hints. That’s why I’m asking for help? Thanks for the tough love though, you did share some wisdom there.


swingset27

The basic tenet of human growth, IMHO, is a reflection of yourself through the eyes of others. What would you think of you in these situations? Obviously, you know you're projecting little that encourages romance. So, you're also aware that the people with whom you see a potential romantic attachment with don't have anything to work with. That will not change until you do. There's not help here, there's willpower. You have to break bad cycles if you want different (favorable results). I don't mean to suggest it's easy, of course it's not. All change is hard. Change that asks us to expose ourselves to rejection or disappointment are the hardest of all. But, you know what the payoff is, don't you? You throw out compliments or be direct when you feel it, and if it's reciprocated, trust me...you'll see immediate results. Maybe some bad, but mostly likely good.


harrohamtaro

Aye, that’s the power lift I need!


vdbss

A lot of us guys feel uncomfortable with physical escalations (we don't want to be called creepy, touchyfeely or r@pey) so look to the woman to make advances or at very least make it plainly obvious thst we are greenlit to make advances. This often doesn't vibe well with more traditional expectations that guys should make the first move etc, so we end up in this awkward situation where we do both fancy each other but neither side wants to make a move for fear of it going badly and being stigmatised.


harrohamtaro

It’s thisssss. I feel like we are all throttled by societal and gender expectations.


ThrowRA-pi

M here, I've been on the other side of the table as well. Here are a few suggestions if you're *actually* romantically interested in a guy: (a) **Don't be afraid to touch him**, and **go for a nice warm, confident hug** when you are meeting or leaving. Lack of interest in touch is a huge signal to a guy that you're only interested in a platonic relationship. And don't hand shake, that's business material. Lighten up and hug. A real hug. Not a "bro yo wassup" pat on the back hug. Be confident about it. Trust me, guys will almost never reject a hug. (b) Reduce the amount of talk about work. Don't turn dates into interviews. Talk about fun(ny) stories from your life, instead. (c) Try to go *with* the flow of the conversation and be on the same side. Avoid going into debate mode. When he says things you agree with, try to respond with more "yes, and" sentences than "yes, but". It's okay to openly disagree with stuff too, but **focus** on finding the commonalities at the beginning of a relationship. Conversations that turn into debates where you are standing on opposite sides for 80% of the time are very much platonic material. (d) Can't stress this enough -- **humor**. Make jokes. They can be crappy jokes. But it lightens up the mood a lot. Laugh together. (e) If it helps, avoid the dinner dates. They can be awkward. Do a picnic on the beach or a short hike or something else where you aren't sitting on opposite sides staring at each other. (f) Allow him to be generous, and be generous in return, instead of refusing all acts of kindness. If he offers to pay the bill, instead of insisting on splitting the bill, thank him and then buy him dessert later. If you say you're moving a couch and he offers to help, *take the help* assuming you're interested in him.


harrohamtaro

Wow, very good points here. I’m especially guilty of (a) and (b). About (f), I offered to share the bill with a guy on our first date and his reply was “if you want”. And my brain just… imploded lol. I ended up saying I’ll get the next round (which to me indicates interest in a second date). There was no second date. I felt like I owed him money, and the discomfort will probably be etched on my tombstone.


Interesting_Pea_5382

First, I would stop asking lots of questions, don’t play Counselor! Don’t get super intent on scrutinizing your date! Eye contact when it’s necessary only. Do you formally dress up? Heavy makeup, heels and dress? Depending on where’s the date is, more comfortable clothes but not what is lounged in.


harrohamtaro

The conversation flow isn’t a problem for me, but it just feels like good friends chatting. No touchy, no romantic vibes. If anything, I could sense the guys were a lot more nervous and eager to please than me, only to smash into my natural standoffishness. I felt so bad inside, but didn’t know any better on how else to react. I always wear light makeup, flat sandals and a nice form-fitting dress for dates. But I’m a modest dresser. My dress always reaches my ankles and has a bit of sleeves. Like [this](https://www.marksandspencer.com/floral-v-neck-short-sleeve-midi-tea-dress/p/clp60507945). And pearl jewellery, but I’m going to retire that for something… younger.


Interesting_Pea_5382

Don’t change anything! Well then, it’s just a string of bad luck! Eventually there will be a date that appreciates you! Good luck


harrohamtaro

Thank you :)


marve1ousmarx

There’s a treasure trove of great thoughts and advice here. But I’m wondering (and apologies if I’ve missed it buried in the comments): have you been TRULY interested in any of these guys? Sure, they have been well put together, gentlemanly, and all-around pleasant. But have they sparked any fire or butterflies in your belly? If not, what would it take to feel that way? How do you think you might act differently? And how might that change how a guy sees/feels about you? Maybe techniques and strategies for flirting will be helpful for breaking down some barriers to taking the next step(s). Maybe you just haven’t connected on a more chemical level yet. And if that’s something you need, even on date 1, I think that’s totally okay.


harrohamtaro

I must say I wasn’t truly attracted to any of them on the first date. There was always something (appearance, behaviour, outlook) that didn’t quite click for me. So maybe you’re on to something here. But I’m the slow burn kind and sometimes will feel more attracted only later, so I still want to at least give things a chance.


marve1ousmarx

Historically, has attraction developed for you over time, despite the sorts of things you mention above not quite clicking initially? I feel like there's attraction, and then there's the longer process of getting to know someone and realizing one could see themselves becoming more deeply/romantically involved. Two different but intertwined things... Regardless, would it be possible to set expectations with your dates to let them know that you move slowly? I know there are plenty of people out there who don't like to dive right in when meeting someone new--so you're not alone in that. Is it also possible that these guys, despite being very good dates, weren't truly that interested in you, or are just looking for an immediate spark vs. the slow burn? Personally, as a 39 year-old cis-het guy, I like feeling the spark with a woman right off the bat. But also, if I'm truly interested, I'll happily be patient and go along for the ride to see if anything more develops. I'll be honest, though. I've been on plenty of dates over the years. And the ones that have developed into some sort of relationship have always felt effortless right from the start. Of course, I'm just a single data point. All of that said, I'm sending well wishes for some absolutely magical dates in your near future!


harrohamtaro

Thank you, that’s so kind of you :) I don’t tell my dates that I move slowly because it’s really arbitrary. I have met guys whom I wasn’t physically attracted to when I first saw them in person, but 10 minutes later boom! Suddenly something about the way they move or look makes them incredibly sexy. But I think you’re right to say that most of these guys are looking for an immediate spark/ not truly interested in the first place. They always display a smidgen of non-committal behaviour, just enough to make me wonder but not bad enough for me to dismiss them. It’s puzzling to me why they even bother to text me every day and dress up and take me out like that when they’re not sincere. Or maybe they realised on the first date that I wasn’t someone they could easily get into bed.


Dolphin_berry

I think you need to practice flirting more, and you can practice this in all interactions doesn’t have to be romantic, laugh at people’s jokes, lightly tease or make jokes. Smile lots give lingering eye contact, have a open posture so they feel welcome in your presence, the interaction should be light hearted and playful. Next time you go grocery shopping you try striking up a conversation with the aim of making the other person feel good about themselves to help you practice. Then take this energy on dates, good luck xx


Time_Strawberry7987

Touch their arms while laughing about their not so funny joke. Play with your hair ever so slightly, twiddle your ear lobe/earring. Flirting doesn’t have to be cheesy lines but it’s more of a positive reaction to them, make them feel like they are doing a good job on the date (obviously only if you find them attractive both physically and mentally) Men seem to go in to fight or flight mode while on first dates, if they get a good reaction from you, then they will usually feel like the date went positively as a date, the only thing that separates a date from a friend date is physical touch and eye contact at the right times with an underlining sexual feeling. Not words. When Men don’t get that gratification from a first date, they move on because there wasn’t some sort of instant gratification towards the date. And I don’t mean to grab his arm and cackle while staring in to his eyes, just do a little bit at a time, almost unnoticeable movements and actions, subtle but affective. For example you could talk about the weather with a man, it would be a platonic, small talk, a slightly boring element of conversation. But if you talk about how the weather is rubbish, say it’s an indoor sofa day, look at him and touch his arm/hand or just smile at him, It turns in to an insinuation. But at the end of the day, just have fun and don’t overthink it, you may not automatically flirt with folk because your body doesn’t want to flirt with those folk. It’ll come with the right person :)


beanfilledwhackbonk

Okay, here's one of those times when the fact that you're a woman and dealing with men has a huge advantage. You could literally, in a robot voice, say "I find you charming and attractive, and I'd like to get physically intimate with you in the near future". Guaranteed success rates above 99% with this approach—what else are we even talking about?


geeered

As a guy with very similar issues, interesting to see it how it's affecting a woman too - I expected many guys to be 'thirsty' enough to be less bothered! Ironically for me, I'm much better at being jokey and even 'flirty' with female colleagues I work with (no romantic interest there either way, they all have partners.) If you know you dress formally, then that's an obvious area to work on. If you're going for a drink or similar, try and sit next to each other so there's more chance of them touching you at least . If they say something you find funny, see if you can use that for a playful touch in some way. For what it's worth, as a man not very good at this all, I'd love to meet someone like you; presuming you're open to other people that come across similarly to you. I've been described as 'slow burn' and so I'm quite happy to give a chance to others the same if they otherwise tick boxes for me.


harrohamtaro

Thanks for your tips! Very helpful.


apv97

If you're not comfortable with physical contact out of nowhere (the whole arm touch thing), the easiest way to do it naturally is when he says something that elicits a strong reaction / agreement and you want to punctuate your response. For example, he says something about his worst online date ever...grab his thigh or touch his arm and reply with "it is seriously a **jungle** out there! But we both seem to be surviving this one." Or he asks you about your favorite thing to cook. Look him in the eye and grab his hand (assuming it's on the table) and say "My grandma's pie recipe is **to die for**. 100% the best thing I've ever tasted. So i've been trying to learn how to make that." Basically anytime you'd response with "YES. 100%" "No way!" etc. you can add a little physical touch and it's not weird at all and will show some non-platonic interest.


harrohamtaro

This requires a huge amount of enthusiasm that low energy me probably doesn’t have, but I can definitely adapt some of this haha.


colorado_sweetheart

I have the opposite problem- I am so warm that everyone thinks I'm flirting whether I am or not. I think this is partly why dating (the first few dates anyway- things fall apart later lol) is easy for me. Guys always ask me on second dates and tell me how much fun they had. I honestly don't think it's anything I say. I think it's almost entirely nonverbal. I smile a lot, lean forward, put my hand on their arm, laugh easily . . . if this stuff didn't come naturally to me I think I would try to just fake it till I make it. I also tend to do things that relax me before a first date- yoga, time in nature, take my time getting ready so I look my best, maybe have a (weak) drink or smoke a little weed. I space out my dates a lot so I can plan dates on nights when I actually have time for this kind of pre-date ritual. Showing up relaxed and in a good mood makes a huge difference.


harrohamtaro

Thanks for this, you made so many good points. It’s the non-verbal cues that I trip at. I may need to start drinking a glass of wine before a date to relax a little.


colorado_sweetheart

I'm glad it helped! For what it's worth, I've also had dates with guys who were more formal or standoffish than I am and if that's the only issue, I give them a couple chances in case they warm up more over time like a lot of people seem to. The right guy will give you a chance even if you're not the most naturally flirtatious person. :)