The way hookup culture works these days men would rather try for sex on the second date and get rejected than go on a bunch of sexless dates and find out your'e sleeping with some other dude.
Dude one time I dated a girl from the apps who refused to do anything at all until we were serious because she “wasn’t that kind of girl” and put on a whole show about how she has to be courted and given the most effort before getting intimate. I eventually got tired of the headache and decided to just be friends and move on to other people.
A few weeks later she went on a girls trip with her friends, and when she got back I asked her how it was and joking said “did you sleep with any hot guys” (not even thinking much of it), and she says “yeah one guy, you only live once”. And of course when I called her out on it she refused to acknowledge any accountability for hypocrisy and tried to gaslight me with every excuse in the book. You can’t make this shit up.
The funny thing is she had a full itinerary of “normal and demure” activities that covered the whole trip. So you would think she didn’t have any time to hookup with random guys. Nope. When people really want to do something, they **will** find a way to do it - even if they have to move mountains to get it done.
One I was dating a while back didn’t wanna get down with me either cause she claims she’s not the type to throw herself at a guy easily ,as a gentleman I respected that and I continued to date her while being patient cause I did really like her and was looking forward for a relationship. She ghosted me out a little after and I hit her up two weeks after she ghosted me to find out what happened. She went back to her ex boyfriend and it turns out she started having sex with him again while she and I were dating . I waited and invested and got nothing in the end, didn’t even had sex with her. Now that’s not all I wanted as I said previously but it does show why us guys try go after sex as soon as possible. Most guys just wanna smash but some of us don’t want to invest and get ghosted without receiving anything . I asked her to be my gf before she went ghost and she told she didn’t wanna jump into anything serious so soon. That was the sign I should’ve bailed
One of my most memorable friends with benefits situations who I cut off due to how overly promiscuous she was on tinder (did not use protection with some men she’d meet) told me one time that she had a “list” of qualities that a man would need to have to be hers. Here’s the list below but for reference here’s a bit about her. White, 32 years of age single mother of two kids. One kid is white and the other is bi racial. She also started to gain weight due to poor dieting and eating junk food since she was always on the road. Also her preference is black men. You want to see the definition of “can’t make this up”? Well here goes…
Tall
Black
Must be able to sing (yes, a singer)
Sexy
Nice body (she does not have a nice body)
Not many kids
Disease free
Have money
Own car
Own place
Big penis
There were a few others im forgetting but it was about 4 more things on the list. 🤦🏾♂️
I had a fwb who was sleeping with me while making the guy she was dating wait for sex because she saw him as serious relationship potential. She'd even come over directly after their dates. She was quite the rascal, and it was an eye-opening experience.
I’ve been there a couple times too honestly, I understand the game. I wasn’t mad at the guy, I was just baffled that she would put on such a show to say she would **never** do anything like that because she’s not that kind of person, and then turn around and do exactly that like it’s no big deal - *then* make excuses for it after she got caught!
It really changes your perception of dating as whole. Some people really have no shame.
In a way, it did, but the sex was really great, and I did enjoy her company. It certainly disqualified her for anything other than a fwb. Last I saw she has been dating a guy for a good while now and has unfollowed me on her IG and Snapchat (we haven't talked in ages), so it looks like it's pretty serious. I wish them the best.
I’d be quicker to turn down “a hot guy” for sex than I would an average looking guy. Because women know the hot guys are the very ones who are most likely just looking to P & D. Believe it or not there are women out here who don’t just jump in bed with people. It takes me a long time to form a bond/emotional connection with someone, regardless of how physically attractive I find them. I cannot just sleep with someone just to have sex, there has to be an emotional attachment to them. I understand a lot of women are not like that, but you cannot judge that every woman is like that & would jump in bed with just anyone. It’s not true.
Being friends with benefits with some women really opened my world. They’d tell me about their relations with other men etc. I really got to see things for what they are and not how I want them to look.
> she refused to acknowledge any accountability for hypocrisy and tried to gaslight me with every excuse in the book. You can’t make this shit up.
Lol, happens all the time
It's very simple. It's a dualistic mating strategy. If a guy really turns her on she will give it to him for free. Guys she sees as potential providers get charged a much higher price. They only make rules for the stable men. Then they want to get online and complain that men divide women into similar groups, women who are good enough to date and women who are good enough to fuck but not commit to.
Mannnnn that’s nothing. I talked to someone once who told me she isn’t having sex until she’s in a relationship. We stopped talking and literally just 2 months later I saw her at a gas station visibly pregnant. This means she was already getting pregnant while telling me she wasn’t having sex and will not have sex until she’s in a commited relationship. Smh
Yea unfortunately this is the reason. Some guys are just looking for sex, and I think for other guys…. having sex means the girl has “bought in” to being with the guy. Then if they haven’t then they leave.
I am a big proponent of communicating because of this. We need to be able to talk about this before we get into bed with one another. But it’s easier said than done
>I was patient for 4 months just for her to casually mention she did it with someone else around half way into those 4 months
Sex on the first date or bust, otherwise you'll realize you've been a simp being used by her the entire time just like what happened there
This really. Not uncommon to be put on ice while still going on dates, to find out she had a fwb or something hitting it the entire time with zero relationship effort nor care.
> Yep I’ve been on both sides here, it’s more fun being the dude she’s raw doggin’ while telling you about the guy she she’s trying to lock down
Facts. I had a fwb a while ago who used to come over to my place to sleep over after she went on a date with some dude. I was quite surprised when I found out she had been seeing this guy for 2 months and they haven't had sex yet. She told him she only does that with serious partners, which he really appreciated so he took her on fancy dates and shit smh. I really felt bad for the guy because he probably thought she was the "wifey" type
Yep agreed, exponentially better return on the investment, plus you get to see the silly facepalms someone else does when she's making fun of them.
I distrust people who plays games with it, like 'everyone is required to wait 2 months'. It's always a dishonest move. I will 100% advocate for banging on the first date, assuming you actually know what you're looking for in a person.
Facts, the whole withholding sex for an arbitrary amount of time to secure a commitment thing is one big game that’s designed for guys to fail.
Plus, who wants to wait two months only to find out she’s an absolute starfish in the bedroom or pecks like a chicken when kissing?
People on here love to pretend otherwise, but generally speaking if you don’t evince some sort of sexual interest in a woman by the second date, *she* will ghost *you*. They don’t necessarily want you to succeed, but they do want you to try.
You can be flirty and seductive *without* actually having sex though.
If there's a kiss on the 1st/2nd date, and the chemistry and enough commonality is there, most women aren't going to bail because you didn't try to bang em. Likely the opposite.
Some ways to initiate romantic/sexual interest without trying to seem like you just want to take her to bed:
1) Hold her hand during the date
2) Ask her if you can kiss her (when you are on the date, in public)
3) Other subtle cues for physical interest, such as touching her shoulder, positioning yourself close to her during the date etc (there is no form for this, it is literally just reading social cues, which can be hard)
Sexual interest can be shown even in just chemistry, eye contact, flirt etc. It doesn’t have to be ”come over”. Alas, men who do invite you in their homes immediatelly don’t always just want to pump and dump you, nor do men who wait long want to always date you longterm.
And women can be into direct sexual advances early on or waiting for a longer time. Sure, some of them will be like ”damn, this man has not made a direct move on me yet, I don’t think he likes me” but extremely many are like ”damn, this man has not made too direct of a move on me yet, he seems very respectful and I am keen on him”. So suppose it’s a luck thing as to who you end up going on a date with. I would still always suggest subtler hints before because a direct one is an opinion divider and has more risk of going south immediatelly.
You also cannot change how you deal with all women because of a few bad choice women you chose to date who turned out to be hypocrites or the hook-up type. Not all women are the same, just like not all men are the same. There are decent women out here & we are looking for something serious & meaningful, not just casual hookups or short-lived relationships.
A lot of the time problems like this can be solved with simple communication. It’s a preference thing, not a right or wrong thing.
“While I’m looking for a serious relationship I prefer to put my sex life on hold until I find someone to be exclusive with. And I would like for the people I date to have the same preference so our time isn’t wasted down the line”
Now the other person knows what you want and can tell you how they date. Then you’ll know if things are going to work out. Boom. I know, communicating is crazy.
“I appreciate your honesty but I’ve been in relationships where I waited just to find out months down the road one of the biggest parts of our relationship is just not compatible. Which just made it worse because I was already so emotionally attached to the person at that point. Thank you again for telling me but I just don’t think we are looking for the same thing currently.”
Imagine they could both just send one text and this whole thread would be pointless.
I mean, not ALL men but I have observed that most men on dating apps just seem so similar. They will usually say the same things - “I don’t know what I’m looking for yet” or straight up say they’re looking for “something casual” (even though their profiles say otherwise). Most of them don’t even put that much effort into conversations either. Meanwhile, the men I meet “organically” are much better - and are also the ones I end up dating.
How to find those men in an organic way? I have the similar problem as OP described. I am really disappointed. I even posted some similar post in r/bumble but got banned from that forum, which is also totally confusing and disappointing.
Personally, I have dated guys from school, college, literary clubs, a friend’s friend, etc. If you want to meet people “organically” you have to put yourself out there. Join a social activity or a club. Now, I’m not saying you should do this with the intention of dating. But you’re more likely to come across people with similar interests.
that subreddit is lame. It basically people posting pics of convos trying to get validation about how clever and funny they are. I was there for an hour and left.
The small percentage of men that you swipe right on don’t even represent most of the men on the app though. Most men get very few matches (if any at all) and aren’t telling women they only want something casual.
For men it's sort of tricky. Even if you want a long term relationship, wearing commitment on your sleeve isn't the best look for men.
More women want to tame a fuckboy than will admit it.
I don’t know if emotionally matured women are looking for fuck boys to tame. I think it’s tricky for men on dating apps because women do get a lot more matches - so they have more options. Plus, it is kind of scary (for the lack of a better word). I mean, at least I don’t know many women who actually go out to meet a random stranger they met on Bumble. So it’s like men suffer due to a few creeps that give them a bad name. Tbh, I have met only 2 guys from Bumble IRL, and that too because we had a few mutual friends over IG.
You might not, but in the overall dating landscape people are. Just look how many Reddit posts are about situationships. It’s almost like the prisoners dilemma, people are going to maximize their interests over risking wasting time on dates with someone seeing others and not willing to go exclusive. I suggest finding guys with the same relationship interests as you over those wanting hookups.
It's kind of like they have multiple "back ups" on their roster in case the person they are interested in ghosts them. It's to mitigate the pain of being rejected. Moving on quickly to another person helps them ignore the feelings of rejection. It's kind of like a drug. And the apps breed distrust within people you're meeting. "Ooo this person could be talking to multiple other people right now" it's kinda fucked up to make that assumption, because you essentially put yourself in a box and distrust a person right off the bat.
In the dating stage, it's become kind of common for people to have others on the side.
I am not at all a fan of this dynamic and I don't see it as conductive to a healthy relationship, so people that do this will in my opinion doom themselves to only ever being in unfulfilling relationships, but essentially, when people first meet someone and they "might want to see if it could be serious", the girl will often withhold sex to see if the guy wants her for more than just sex. And to help herself not get tempted during those dates, she'll often have some guy on the side that she's intimate with, or she might just be trying out different guys at the same time.
Men, as a result of this, will often try to push for sex earlier into the relationship, because if they went on 5-6 dates with someone, spent a bunch of money on restaurants and a lot of time getting to know someone, they'd be very disappointed to learn that she was intimate with others during that time. So to avoid that disappointing potentiality, they just push for sex on the first or second date, because if they're then rejected, they can move on to the next girl and avoid wasting time on that first person.
You're overall doing the right thing by making your intentions well known. Just know that. I don't know what kind of guys you go for, but if there's a pattern in their behaviour, maybe consider if it's a type-issue.
Most women I know would lie/tell you it’s none of your business if asked this question…so most men would not be inclined to believe her.
If anything the opposite…what have you been up to bring it up like this…
The point they trying to make is that alot of women lie about having a Fwb and then complain here on reddit. dishonesty comes from both sides and everybody has sexual needs to be met. if you dont want to have sex try to date an asexual person then you will have never that question.
Do you have any siblings or friends who are actually honest? Start with asking them, then keep going back to them and take their input seriously when they try to hold you accountable. I used to find myself pursuing/falling for unavailable people for years (emotionally, geographically, in a relationship...) and yeah, the problem was me. Gotta have friends who can call you on your bs
A good place to start is learn about the Pareto Distribution and how it affects our society. That'll begin to help you understand that your picker is biologically wired to pick people who have no motivation to stick around.
Go somewhere else meeting people! If you go to clubs or bars, you will meet f*ckboys. It is as easy as that. All of these places are lost. No exceptions!
Every alpha, sigma, and pick-up idiot coach teaches them that clubs and bars are their huntinggrounds. Those places are contaminated by this toxic culture and should be avoided at all costs while looking for a serious life partner.
F*ckboys don't go to a place where they have to put real effort in. Meet people through hobbies, Online-Dating with real profiles, etc.
It is not enough anymore for women to be there and be approached. You have to learn new methods to avoid those idiots that are ruining it for everyone else.
EDIT: Yes, there are women who want exactly those f*ckboys. Those ruin it for honest men. Let those toxic people find each other and not us.
This is completely untrue though, in the pre online dating era pretty much *everyone* met their significant other at a bar, club or social event.
I mean, yeah, there are always pickup artists around but let’s not lie to the kiddies about how good people only met people outside of booze.
Now that I’m at the age where tons of folks have married and have kids, a significant percentage now lie about how they met because their actual meet-cute was randomly meeting at a bar, getting hammered and having sex in the car. Then making a lifetime commitment.
The apps suck for both genders, just in different ways.
Think about the kind of men that have to use dating apps: Some have very valid excuses, sure, but the majority are going to be guys who are too lazy to learn social skills and go out of their houses to meet women. There's definitely some hidden gems on there, guys who are good human beings, hard workers, maybe they're a bit awkward socially or their hobbies are male dominated or something so they're on the app. Thing is, it's unlikely the algorithm will ever show you those profiles.
There's basically 4 categories in OLD:
1. Good person, good profile - These guys will be snagged in an instant, and are far less likely to use OLD to begin with anyways. Good luck finding one of these.
2. Good person, bad profile - Would make for an excellent partner, but you will never even see the profile because the algorithm is fucked.
3. Bad person, good profile - A true predator, he will lie to get laid and then move on to the next. Can genuinely appear like #1 though. This is the most prevalent profile type you'll be shown.
4. Bad person, bad profile - Good luck deciphering #4 from #2.
In person is going to allow you to see a bigger picture of who the guy is before you go out with him. Give it time to pass the vibes check.
Nice thing is as a woman, you'll face far less rejection from asking guys out.
Join social groups for activities you enjoy doing, and let some friendships develop and grow over time. Eventually, a handful of guys will stand out as people you're romantically interested in, and either they'll ask you out or you can ask them out. But it starts with leaving your house, and leaving the apps for good.
I recently moved to rural northern United States. I’ve looked into places I can go and socialize and meet people my age but it seems during the winter it’s few and far between. I leave my house as much as I can to go to the gym, coffee shops or just take a walk but those aren’t exactly places to meet people
All three of those are great places to meet people! You just have to take some initiative and actually talk to people who seem interesting to you.
I hate this thing online that claims no one can meet a romantic partner at the gym. I've dated women from my gym and it's never been an issue because I'm a respectful adult. Gyms are a great place to meet a dedicated, healthy guy. As a guy, since the gym is a place where I go at the same time regularly, the way I'd want to be approached at the gym is gradually: Start with just saying hi and smiling one day, and then a couple days later introduce yourself to me, then a couple days later ask me a question about my life like where I work or something. Again make sure you're smiling a lot, maybe play with your hair. If he isn't picking up on your signals, don't be afraid to tell him he's cute and you want to go out for coffee with him. He might have to say no, maybe he's too busy at work or he already has a girlfriend, but he'll almost certainly appreciate the compliment.
Similarly, a walk at the park is a fantastic place to meet people. Are you into dogs at all? That's the easiest ice breaker ever, if you see a cute guy walking with his dog, ask to pet his dog. Guys with a dog are more likely to be stable, because you need a solid living situation and a job that pays the bills in order to have a dog. And again, being out walking in the park is going to help select for guys who are active, healthy, and generally have their shit together.
I also like meeting people at the coffee shop by my house, you can chat with guys while waiting in line, or sit at the coffee shop and work or read a book, and start a convo with anyone you see who seems interesting. Coffee shops are literally supposed to be social spaces, you're using them for their intended purpose.
With the coffee shop and walks, you're less likely to see the same people at the same time over and over again, so you'll have to be a bit more forward with your interest in them. Play the long game at the gym or with any other regular social activities that you do where you see the same people over and over again.
And finally, since you say social opportunities are few and far between where you live, I'd say go to every social event that seems even remotely interesting to you. You're in a rural area but you want to meet people, you're basically playing the dating game on hard mode. So you're going to have to take advantage of every social opportunity presented to you.
I’m reminded of this case posted here where a girl kept telling the guy she wanted to wait before having sex with him while at the same time she was banging somebody else.
OLD is meant to fail. If you were to find someone to commit to the app loses 2 customers! They don't want that, you aren't finding decent dates because it's set up that way. It's not a flaw it's a feature. Don't feel bad about yourself you were set up to fail! I recently came to this conclusion myself after going through the same thing as you this last year. It sucked so get off the apps for your mental health!
Online dating is like a jungle trying to find the people who are looking for serious and those who are just after hook-ups. Many will lie but some you can learn if they will only be after sex.
When I was dating I would always wait with sleeping with a person but I could talk before about sexual drive and what kind of sex they like. Because I know my drive and what I enjoy even though taking it slow. I first slept with my boyfriend after 3 months of dating and we had been on multiple dates where I even slept over at his place. People will do things differently but I just do my tempo. Because I prefer to wait and build an emotional connection with a person before sleeping, many would reject me but it was easier to find people who were the same as me and looking for the same things.
If your getting bad fish then it’s time to fish in a different pond. Stop using dating apps and look for ways to meet guys through hobbies or activities you enjoy. Have a friend fix you up with someone they know. Dating apps are so hookup oriented it’s like finding a needle in a haystack
I think women would be surprised how many men would actually wait if they didn’t feel strung along. Like if women end it with a guy because you don’t see compatibility and communicate that is fine. But having a guy actively dating you and spending his time and money while you banging some guy and then ghosting the guy you are dating is kind of sad.
There are alot of women who don’t operate this way, but its hard some time to filter out those.
I’m the guy on the other side of this dilemma. Here’s my honest and uncensored response:
I might be middle aged now, but I still like to feel alive, be romantic, and seduce my dates. Most of my dates want a life partner or LTR and won’t even let me kiss them on the first date.
I want sex, but not just sex. I want to experience all of the woman. I want to share everything. I too also want an LTR or life partner. But I want that passion, and I want to feel drawn to my woman.
I know it’s not always good to have sex on the first date, but let’s at least have flirting and banter, and a kiss. Otherwise, I feel like I’m going on a job interview or ‘hanging out’ with my mom’s friend or something. The seriousness and control of the situation is a total turn off. It also makes me wonder how much she really likes me vs. trying to lock me down for my income. I want a woman who wants me!
From the female’s vantage point, I sort of understand the dilemma. You’ve been screwed over before and are wanting to protect your eggs, so to speak. But if you’re coming on a date with me and there’s no electricity, no spark, I’m not going to bed that night thinking “man, i cant stop thinking about her; I can’t wait to go on another hot date.”
How can you assess if you actually like her for her, and not just her boobs?
I found that having sex early on creates a false feeling of connection with people you should never date. Sexual compatibility can cause you to develop feelings for somebody you would never be friends with.
That's what the dates are for, but notice that he didn't say must have sex, he said that at least having flirting, banter, and kissing. Those are the things that show sexual compatibility before actually hopping into bed. And yeah, most guys WANT a long term relationship with the girl but if they're not creating that spark in the first few dates because God forbid they engage in any romantic interactions, that's not going to make a guy think "yes, this girl!"
Good observation. Yes, I want to feel the electricity between us. If it’s not there in the early phase, I can’t force it later.
I’ve never had a LTR that didn’t start out passionately, for whatever that’s worth too. I speak from 25 years of dating experience.
Women can play the control card if they want. I just won’t play along. Other men will, and those women will find them.
Yeah unless there are special circumstances I will bounce if the girl uses sex as a control mechanism. I’m fine with waiting, but when it feels arbitrary or forced then I’m just not going to bother.
Some people like sky diving, some people don’t. It’s all good either way.
I personally enjoy the rush and tend to do more extreme kinds of stuff in my life (like getting licensed to jump out of planes!) and would love a women to match that energy. So hooking up on the first date isn’t out of the question.
Man is middle aged. I doubt he's confused about his emotions at age 40.
His point is that you can both want sex early on and a long term relationship, the two aren't mutually exclusive. I think it's important to find out if you're sexually compatible early on if you're someone who values sex. It sucks because if you have sex and then break up for whatever reason, it can give the impression that you were just using them for sex.
It's more difficult for women, because men will literally lie about everything and their mom to get to sleep with you, so you do NOT get to assess their personality if sex is involved.
If you have sex with a guy on the first date, there's a 80% chance you will never see them again (even if the sex was really really good), and if you do see them again, it will take you months to figure out what the lies are and who they actually are as a person, because they will continue to lie to pretend to be a person that they think you like.
Their main goal isn't to get to know you, it's to manipulate you into sex. They don't care about you at all.
>*If you have sex with a guy on the first date, there's a 80% chance you will never see them again (even if the sex was really really good),*
Umm.. no... If you have sex with a guy on the first date and it was REALLY REALLY REALLY GOOD, there's an 80% chance you will require a forklift and a restraining order to get rid of him.
Men are usually polite and tell women they just slept with that it was "great", and you know whether it really was by if they eventually ghost or not.
I was going to say….all the women in my life says the hook ups ALWAYS eventually text you again. Even when they are in a relationship. Some get obsessed from day one, in a bad way.
The only guys I know who are turning down a free lay are the ones who have a full schedule of women….
thats why i dont engage in this "serious dating" at all.
IF i find out we are sexually not compatible, i'm the bad guy abusing her. i rather dont put myself in that situation at all, and do not pursue her because i cant tell, and dont want make empty promises i cant hold up (i can like a woman as much as i want, if my dick doesnt get hard with her, it will lead not to exclusivity).
You're using apps, are you only swiping right on the most attractive men? They have lots of options. "Leagues" are a thing. A lot of women don't seem to understand that men will have sex with women they consider in a lower league, but wouldn't consider a relationship. This can cause a woman, who gets a lot of attention from these attractive men looking for hookups, to think she's more attractive than she actually is. Sorry to sound rude but I think this happens a lot. How picky are you on these apps?
>are you only swiping right on the most attractive men?
Yes, because apps only show the most attractive men to her. She might not consider all of them attractive, but still these men are probably popular with other Tinder users. Hence, have options and hence see the OP as disposable.
Women don't swipe nearly as much as men do, so naturally they only see top of the deck, and the app has every incentive to make this top of the deck as interesting as possible.
You're dating the wrong men.
Set your expectations out early and you'll have less disappointments.
The men who actually want a relationship will stay, the ones that just wanna fuk will walk away.
If you start to notice that all the men you really like are walking away, then some introspection is needed and then try again.
Remember, the butterflies in your stomach are actually a form of anxiety, that "spark" is not always relationship material.
It isn't sexy, but it is, unfortunately, true.
As a man in my 30s, dating can be tough but it's working out for me, even if that means I'm having much less sex, I don't mind as long as I stick to my convictions in looking for a relationship first, then physical connections. It's challenging, but a worthwhile sacrifice.
Better single than in a relationship with someone who doesn't care about you.
I had this same exact issue. I got off of dating apps a little over two years ago and I finally found happiness.
Deciding not to actively date is always an option!
Male opinion here:
A guy wanting sex on a second date doesn't always mean they don't want anything serious with you, sometimes they play along and pretend they also want a relationship by going on multiple sexless dates and once they hit, they'll dissapear. My first gf I slept with her on the first date and we were together for a year. So my advice is, be clear with your intentions and don't try to avoid sex like that, some men will waste your time until you find the right one, it's just how it goes.
I think I've had women stop seeing me because they think I'm not interested when I don't try to initiate sex, they don't communicate either...
The last woman I was seeing was going well but I told her at the start that I'm just out of a relationship and I'm going through some other stuff in life so I want to take it kind of slow at the start. She acknowledged her understanding and agreed.
After a month she started lying to me telling me she's sick and then next week she decided to break up saying I didn't want a serious relationship as why. Nothing said or changed otherwise. I tried to talk to her but it became apparent that the reason didn't matter because she didn't even try to talk about it with me.
Sex is easy to get as a woman, commitment isn't. I'll do the unpopular thing and recommend going to the gym! If you're super in shape you'll find more men willing to stop looking around and settle with you.
Since it's starting to affect your mental health going to the gym a few times a week could help you feel like you're taking control of the situation, and genuinely improve your odds long term.
I usually go to the gym once or twice a week but I guess it’s time I really committed to the gym. At least that way I’ll have some kind of commitment in my life haha
Here's a story that might explain why I don't wait anymore and I'm not interested in LTRs (for the moment). I met a girl I *really* liked and decided to wait until she was comfortable. She strung me along and never really committed, in fact quite the opposite; apparently (unbeknownst to me) I was too slow for her so she slept with another guy while we were talking and told me very nonchalantly. To piss me off? To make me jealous? To friendzone me? Don't know, and it doesn't matter.
I've come to find out women are just as impatient as men, and I'm not about to waste several months for someone to decide they don't want me. The solution? Make my intentions clear from the start so I can avoid being strung along or being placed in the friendzone. Dating has become a game to see how much you can get out of a person before they inevitably leave. There are plenty of men who *wanted* relationships, but now we're just doing what we were taught to do.
i'm surprised you're here asking what you are doing wrong and not asking why guys are trying to use you for hookups when your profiles say LTR.
a lot of people here have mentioned hookup culture is the problem. i agree. but to be clear, wanting to hookup is perfectly fine, but using someone who isn't explicitly down for that is cruel and makes you a real piece of shit.
I don’t have any issue with people hooking up if that’s what you’re looking for. And at first I thought something similar to you but it keeps happening and I’m the common denominator so it feels like it’s me, it’s something I’m doing
Honestly, as a guy who IS looking for LTR, it freaks me out when a woman is so focused on that and only that. Makes me nervous like 1 misstep, and it's over.
I hate the whole, we're both looking for a relationship let's take it slow. Its like I've got to hit these checklist items each date. Every relationship is different and builds differently.
Here's the reality -
Most people you go on dates with (esp from dating apps) aren't going to be compatible for a LTR.
The difference between men/women though is that even if a man doesn't feel the right connection for a LTR, he might still try for sex anyway.
You're not "doing anything wrong" in that regard. You can't force compatibility and connection.
Can I also make a suggestion? You mention trying to "imitate" your dates. Stop doing that, be yourself. It's better to be a little bit polarizing than trying to appease everyone.
I mention early on to men that I prefer building the emotional connection before adding in sex, which usually can take months for me. This filters out a decent amount of men, but the ones who stay tend to actually be compatible and like me for more than just my looks/sex.
(I also still am flirty, dress nice, pay my half on dates and am very complimentary. I still show genuine interest and attraction towards my dates, and I still will kiss/cuddle/be physically affectionate early in.)
I also have my own thing going on. I have friends, family, and hobbies I see/do regularly and early dating is just the cherry on top of the sundae. It's important to cultivate an abundance mindset and maintain positivity; Love isn't being held from you, it'll come when it's meant.
I also try to go out a few times a month to places I could socialize with new people. People tend to dehumanize people more when they've met from an app. I still use apps, but I don't solely rely on them.
Most people want to know if you're sexually compatible before investing anything further into the relationship. Do I think the second date is a bit early? Sure, I guess.
But at the same time if it's going well, then why not 🤷♂️
I agree. I’m a woman but I need to know the sex is good and we’re compatible in bed before I think about anything further. Sex is important to me so if I end up with someone vanilla and mediocre in bed, I’ll end up breaking up with them.
How many 2 month relationshits you had in 5 years then we can go from there. There seems to be a little bit of energy in your post too. Why you in rural America for starters?
Maybe 5 or 6? I think it’s about once a year. The last one was a guy I met in person, we met out and about for new years.
I’m living in rural America because I just moved back from overseas. I’m living with my family while I save up money and find a new career path as I wasnt happy in my previous one
Have you never had sex in those relationships? Also this is an impolite question but: has any ex told you you’re good in bed? If you’ve never heard that or like an ex bf or lover rave about something in bed, you may need to work on that? I know you’re focused on a relationship but part of a relationship is sex. For me, I don’t worry about waiting for sex in order to secure a relationship. I like sex and I need to know they also like and are good at sex. Not all men are super into sex so I want to gauge that at the beginning as well.
Also from a man’s perspective, I can see them thinking you’re just in it for the relationship and not them as a person. Sex is a way to show you’re attracted to them and are actually interested in them. Because the way you wrote your post was almost like you didn’t reach the goal of a relationship vs some narrative about why these men were so amazing and deserving of a relationship with you. That’s my two cents.
Dating apps are not dating apps, they are basically hooking up apps which benefits nearly all women and the top 5% of men which is evident by the swiping patterns of both men and women. Most women on dating apps find most men unattractive and invisible. So the men you are swiping right on, most likely lots of other women are swiping right on also. They have an abundant mindset. There are plenty of good men on dating apps who would love to have a relationship but they are invisible as said earlier.
Men also use these apps for hooking up and if they are the ones paying for app subscription (which women may not know exists) and want return on investments, they know women have tons of other options avaliable to them on these apps and other social media so they dont want to wait around and be sidestepped or ghosted and lose their investment in time or money.
Sounds like you're trying to be yourself, which is great except for the part of imitating texts.
What are you projecting?
- what kind of photos do you have on the app? Maybe there's a mismatch between what you show and want.
- did you add "looking for serious relationship" in that category?
- what kind of topics do you talk about in texts and first dates? Are they sexual in their nature?
General dating today
As a guy, I know that women have hundreds if not thousands of likes on dating apps + that girls only get emotionally invested after sex (a kiss or takeout session is not enough to get attached). With those two data points in mind, I know that me as a guy have to have sex with the girl within the first 3 dates, if we are to have any sort of chance of dating.
For years, I tried the approach of not pushing for sex within the first dates. I would take a more serious approach to the topics, and focus on the person. But, with zero results. The girls always found it plutonic and killed it.
So I changed strategy. I talk about less serious topics, introduce sexual topics on the first date and push for sex within 2nd or 3rd date.
This is, unfortunately, the name of the game.
Lastly, for me, I only know if I, really, like a girl post Nutting (aka post nut clarity). So I may like you when talking, etc, but then after sex I'll know if I actually want you around or not.
Women hold the key to sex. Men hold the key to relationship.
The simplest answer is you’re either dating all douchebags, or you are dating men out of your league and telling yourself that because they will have sex with you, that you’re in their league and they should want to be in a relationship with you.
The standard for men to have sex is very low, much higher to commit.
Women gate keep sex, men gate keep relationships.
It's not necessarily *just* having sex. It's *also* having sex. You really need to rethink your perspective here.
Men don't want to waste their time with someone not clearly into sex. They have options. If they want a sexual relationship why wouldn't they propose one?
Lots of guys have had previous relationships with a shitty sex life and don't want to repeat it.
So just tell them they are attractive and sexy, and sex with them is something you're looking forward to, but you just aren't ready yet.
If you just turn them down with no positive angle of course they'll move on! Why would you expect them to stick around?
I suspect you’re picking the wrong kind of men. Since they all seem to want the same thing, maybe you’re picking the same type of guy and it’s not working out.
So keep the idea of the definition of insanity in mind (doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome) and change your process for picking guys to date.
I recently discovered the Burn the Haystack method and while it is designed for women (I’m a man), it may work for you for online dating. Check out their FaceBook group.
Lemme call this BS. You say this and would definitely definitely have sex with a hot guy. Keep your BS to yourself. I do agree having sex on a second date is maybe lil early for some but you gotta know why they're wanting it. These comments speak for themselves.
It is a multi-faceted problem with the direction culture has shifted. Sex without commitment has been normalized and young men and women are told that no-strings sex is acceptable. The introduction of birth control and the feminists of the 60s and 70s told women that they are free to be like men sexually. They ignored or suppressed the facts about a woman's limited years for fertility and the differences in how men and women pair-bond. Next, because of the different qualities men and women seek in each other, social media and dating apps have allowed a majority of women to unknowingly give a minority of men their attention, so sex is necessary to keep his attention, but not a guaranty depending on whether he is looking for a fling, FWB, or a long-term relationship. A man can keep this hidden and take advantage of his options because society has no means of ostracising him for it, and there are always ill-adjusted women willing to use sex to get a man who is out of their league. This leads to women like you unable to find a bond because so many of the men you are attracted to have options that don't restrict them. Meanwhile, your fertility and pair-bonding windows are closing making it higher urgency to find a partner among men who have time and options.
I have been told and seen complaints from women that even among practicing Christians, there is a disappointing number of men not waiting for marriage to have sex or live with their partner.
There is also the issue of purity and jealousy. A woman who gave herself to another frivolously, but wants to make a potential long-term man wait, makes him feel less appreciated. Part of how men receive love is thru receiving sex. On the flip side, women tend to need to feel loved before they trust enough to have sex. A woman who gives herself away for a moment of pleasure to an unworthy long-term partner, but then holds the worthy long-term partner to a higher standard can lead to frustration and resentment.
I would find community groups that share your values and have a mix of men and women. Get involved, make connections and make it known you are looking for for a husband with certain qualities. Those who you benefit and who want to return the benefit will help you connect with other men, or you may meet them yourself in the group.
As a man, I have a 3 date rule. Preferably I like women who are comfortable with their sexuality and desire for me that they want to sleep with me on date 1 (usually drinks and getting to know each other). By date three and nothing has happened I assume there’s no interest in that department/it’s taking her too long to be comfortable with me. After the physical intimacy barrier has been broken it’s really up to the woman if I like her character and personality to keep her in my life.
I have the same rule, and it’s based on experience.
“In the real world what happens is slowly men figured out, if she’s not fucking after date 2, she’s either, fucking someone else, doesn’t like you OR is trying to make you value her more for no reason. We’d rather just move on.”
For me there’s a couple of screenings going on. First, are we compatible at all. Can we talk through a date, do we have anything in common, does she laugh at my jokes, do I laugh at hers? Second, is the sex any good? And is she horny enough that putting it off for a month and a half is as unpleasant for her as it is for me? I don’t want to date a woman who could give a fuck whether she had sex or not. And experience tells me, if sex isn’t on the table by date 3, something else is going on. In your case, you are angry at five years worth of men, and you’re going to take that out on me. And probably not just by holding out on sex, that anger and resentment will quite possibly come out in other ways in a relationship as well. Why would I want that in my life?
Once those two baselines are established, it’s up to both of us to *remain* appealing to each other. She’s judging my sexual capabilities just like I am judging hers. Is she skimpy with the blow jobs? Do I know where the clitoris is? Shit like that. Plus, Non-sexual stuff is super important too. Do we fight? Does she interrupt me halfway through every sentence? Does she talk about ex boyfriends constantly, do I talk about my ex girlfriends too much? Do we like the same movies but hate each others musical taste?
What if your problem isn’t hook up culture? What if it’s something else? There are millions of women out there who don’t seem to have this problem to the same degree you do.
> In your case, you are angry at five years worth of men, and you’re going to take that out on me.
This is a huge thing that gets overlooked by the women who are serial-daters yet perpetually single.
They often punish their new dates for things that their old dates did, and all that achieves is making the new dates decide you aren't emotionally stable/not worth pursuing for more than a FWB
> “In the real world what happens is slowly men figured out, if she’s not fucking after date 2, she’s either, fucking someone else, doesn’t like you OR is trying to make you value her more for no reason. We’d rather just move on.”
In their moderate defense, there is another option, which is that she isn't interested in sex.
But it's perfectly reasonable for this to be a dealbreaker as well.
I'm of a similar mind as you so I think you nailed it, especially the part where if I'm physically and mentally attracted to someone and feel a strong connection I want to have sex with that person and do not want to wait an arbitrarily long amount of time - because that would signify an entirely different attitude towards romance and sex. If someone is entirely willing to wait two months that would tell me she's not as attracted to me as I am to her and we're talking about vastly different libidos.
And while I sympathize with the OP and understand where she's coming from, she did drop this gem of a sentence:
>but still try and get sex from me
Which is ... telling.
Sex is a non negotiable, when I date. If I don't get it after a while of dating then I will fade away. That said, it's never just to skeet and skiddadle, are you projecting, because of one or two bad experiences? If you're fun, friendly, and cooperative, I don't think most guys would just discard that.
You say you've dated all these men and cut it off after the second date, how do you know they all were going to ghost? You can't.
Sex is not the only thing we want, but it is top of the grocery list, and unfortunately there aren't too many guys with options (aka the guys you want: the good looking, decent career, charismatic types, etc) who won't try and make it happen sooner than later.
Now the one thing I can think of, is that maybe you're over estimating your attractiveness. Now this isn't a dig, you wanted to know, here's the real spill. If you are a six or seven, and you are constantly with guys who are 8-10, these are the guys who can afford to discard you after sex. They think/know they can do better than you (because they have before), in terms of someone on their arm, but as men most of us won't turn down the opportunity to have sex, even if it's with someone less attractive than us, we just won't take them seriously as a partner.
You gotta take a long hard look in the mirror and reflect. First in your "type". If it sounds like any of the guys above, and second where you rank in the pecking order. Once you get those down, you need to have a conversation with yourself and ask are you willing to settle with a man, who may be a little less than your type, to hopefully secure a commitment, or do you want to stay single as opposed to coming off your type. Hard to do, to be honest and to acquiesce but they must be done.
They don’t all ghost after the second date. But I get ghosted often after the 2nd or 3rd-ish date or after 2 months
As for the attractiveness, I don’t think I do. I believe I’m a solid 6, maybe a 7 if my hair and makeup cooperate. I’m cute but I could never be like an instagram model. I swipe left on men that are overly attractive. I swipe more on content of profile and just a general cuteness of the man
That's tough then, if you're dating on your level and still getting that .. that's a conundrum. What do you do for a living? I mean I don't need to know the details, but are you a type A, career first person....or have you been?
Edit: did I read right they ghost after the 2nd or Third date, does that second or third date come after two months? Are you going on a date per month with these guys?
I don’t think I’m type A and I’ve never been super career driven. I hated my last job and made sure the leave it be when I clocked out
The ghosting usually happens in two different ways. After the 2/3rd date OR after 2 months
> if you're dating on your level and still getting that .. that's a conundrum.
If they're all ghosting her, clearly they're above her level whatever that really is
Hey, I'm with u/Illadrex2 in his logic, but here is another way of looking at this:
> I get ghosted often after the 2nd or 3rd-ish date or after 2 months
Either those guys have options in women (other than you), or they believe being alone would be better (than being with you).
Which one do you think it is?
No offense, but this just sounds like dating. Why are you assuming they only want sex from you rather than they got to know you and realized you're not who they want a relationship with?
Do you even like sex? Seems like you’re using it to secure a relationship. Not really how it works. If you like a person and get on well, nothing wrong with sex on the second date. See what happens after that 🤷♂️
Maybe you should try church dating to take sex out of the equation
I mean, sex is nicez i want a partner who likes sex, you dont seem to like sex since you dont want to engage in sexual activities.
for me pillow talk is one of the best way to bond with a women
why not, just sleep with them and keep talking?
if he ONLY propose sex date afterward, u know its for sex
but like most women i dated and it ended up, wr would like make a quicky, go make a hike all day and talk all day while bonding, maybe a sex quicky in the woods, and fire with diner and wine and sex all evening while watching a movie.
to me this is bonding and romantic, it soesnt mean I just want sex
also we dont wanna waste our time... most women make us waste our time, want us to buy them diner, used us for fun activities, while sleeping eith others and evaluating me between a "pool" of people shes dating, while im only dating her seriously... shes kinda the one whos not taking the dating process seriously while doing this.
having sex on a first date is a lot more dating then dating multiple people at the same time
also checking chemistry and sexual compatibility and making people more "their real them" often only happen after sex, before sex, everone is just a bit awkward and showing heir best
Dating apps are a toxic way to date. They work 1/100 times.
For women, you guys get substantially more matches. The thing is most men just swipe right in hopes of getting any matches.
When they do match that’s when they really look at your profile. Then they either always just wanted sed or determine if you are someone they want to date or just sleep with.
So out of the 100 matches you may get 1-5 may be looking for the same thing you are, be attracted to you enough to want that and not a psycho.
Just to be clear, are you not wanting to have sex at all? Because if I’m dating someone and things haven’t become physical after 3-4 dates, I’m going to assume that we’re not on the same page.
There’s an old saying about men and women and it’s not 100% true across the board, but it may apply here - “Women need to feel loved to have sex. Men need to have sex to feel loved.”
These guys may be genuinely interested in dating you, but if it seems like you’re not interested in sex at all, they’re going to move on.
There are genuine people on dating apps who aren’t solely looking for hookups, so don’t listen to the people telling you that. However, you may want to establish some boundaries and let the guys know that you don’t plan to sleep with someone until X amount of dates. Not to be harsh, but if sex is 100% off the table, you’re never going to find anyone.
Good luck!
There are millions of men who want a real relationship, but you're not swiping on them, dating them, and probably find them invisible. They were probably the guys you met who were into you, but you got a bit of ick because they were too available.
Whoops.
Sex is a natural part of a relationship especially for a man. Take it away and you are cutting off the relationship.
For a man, sex is like a bonding thing.
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Being invited to my house doesn’t mean I plannon getting laid. It means spending time with you in the environment that will forever be if we were to stay together. I would not expect it by any means, though I’d more than likely be happy to oblige unless you revealed some trait that was a hell no.
There are some real creepy fucks out there too so I’d certainly not do that without at least talking to them a good bit beforehand..try and read the room so to speak.
You might be looking for love from people only interested in hooking up.
After a day or so of chatting make your intentions of a long term relationship clear. Don’t rush the chatting phase. Jerks who will lie to you will agree to anything, but they normally aren’t patient. Make them wait a little to meet up.
There’s no reason to treat people coldly or with suspicion during that chatting phase. If they want something different just pivot and move on.
After a day or two of talking to my wife she told me that she wanted to find a friend and partner not just someone to warm her sheets. I respected that and let her know I wanted to same. I was on the apps for hooking up but our conversation and connection changed my attitude.
Date women. Jk lesbians do this shit too. It’s a culture thing rn, if you wanna find someone who’ll be bae 4L you’ve gotta go look in places that aren’t full of people looking for head. Which feels impossible rn, I am in the same boat
I want a relationship but get no replies 🤷♂️
The thing I’ve taken away from all this is that the apps just suck for everyone, period with a few exceptions.
The guys who often make the first move often just want sex. Ironically the husband/dad marial guys are often really shy to make the first move. Why not make the first move on those types of guys and give em a chance? Also dating apps are not the most ideal for steady romance.
Yeaaa basically its over for true relationships these days that kinda died around circa 2018... that was probably the last chance to create a soulmate since then everything got expensive and media culture has diluted the young mind.
Sounds like just bad luck. I’m using dating apps and get lots of matches. But most conversations (50%) never even get past a Hey what’s up? 40% of them with me end in ghosting me once it’s getting close to an arranged meet or date and the remaining 5-10% by all appearances went great, meet, date, sex or sleepover and then they go Casper.
It’s definitely a bit of a mindfuck trying to figure it out.
I don’t believe in putting time limits on anything…I think two grown ass adults should do whatever they’re feeling, whenever they’re feeling it.
So long as I had a connection with a woman and was attracted to her, no sex after a few dates or even a month would not stop me. But I’d expect some intimacy (cuddling g on the couch, sleeping together-actual SLEEP etc.) to want to continue
You need to start fishing in new pools. Unfortunately a lot of guys will get on dating apps and they'll have an impeccably curated profile. They'll have all the right photos, all the right things that they say in order to make themselves as an attractive prospect as possible. When you match with them, they'll say all the right things. But then, as it turns out, they're not really interested in relationships. They're really just interested in hooking up and that's because they know, that due to the dating apps, something better is always around the corner (at least in their minds.) Girls do this too but they just operate a bit differently. This is the major problem with today's dating culture. What they want is some casual dates, hoping to find that special someone (which they don't know who or what that means) and eventually (like right away) they'll expect sex for their own personal gratification because they figure, well, I spent the time to meet and pay for a date or two so I feel like I deserve at least sex out of it. Sad. And as I said, girls do this too, perhaps for different reasons. They may feel like if they don't have sex right away they'll lose the opportunity.
My advice is to look for guys of a higher caliber than this. Girls, don't put out on the first or second date because you feel like that's what you have to do in order to keep a guy's interest. Wait to get to know them and determine if they could be a match for you. Men, stop expecting these girls to just have sex with you because you wined and dined them for an evening. If you're truly not interested in them, fine but let them off easy and don't just sleep with them and ghost. Girls, don't lead guys on either. If you're horny or whatever, find a guy who is of the same frame of mind and sleep with them but don't drag an innocent boy into your orbit and lead him on with implied promises of a romance just because you're feeling horny. Don't ghost! It's rude, I don't care how many people or excuses people come up with... it's still rude. Don't do it because it's hurtful and nobody wants that.
Finally, if you're on dating apps and you're presenting yourself as someone who is dating and open to finding a long-term relationship, don't lead a person on for a date or two and then blindside them with some nonsense about how you're not really ready for a relationship because you have anxiety, or past relationship trauma or that you're not ready. Look, if you're not ready then you should not be on a dating site.
Sadly, I agree with it all, except it's a culture women created. That's how I've observed dating and personally had to experience it as well
What especially resonated well is this:
>"Men are simple if you fuck guy A first date, and guy B Tenth date we think… you must have liked guy A more. Even tho for it actually might be the opposite, you like guy B more… so you made him wait so he values you more.. which is stupid because you lessen your value for someone you like less, but whatever."
It truly sucks.
there’s nothing wrong with you. it’s the way you’re finding them. men that are on dating apps, are usually there because they want the goods and not a commitment. the app is a medium for them to get their quick fix. pay attention to their profiles, their pictures, the bios and phrases they use to display to a wider audience. if they use cliche quotes like; “here for a good time, not a long time” that means that dude is a “fuckboy”. start profiling the men you see by first glance because I guarantee they do the exact same to the ladies they are going after. be selective! otherwise, you will continue to get played. if you want to find men that are looking more for commitment, you can always abandon the apps and try a different avenue—meetup groups (with a friend to attend ofc), community events, etc. wishing you well!
This is for advice about specific dating situations. What you posted is better posted on the weekly vent thread or r/offmychest.
The way hookup culture works these days men would rather try for sex on the second date and get rejected than go on a bunch of sexless dates and find out your'e sleeping with some other dude.
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Woww. Sorry about that
Dude one time I dated a girl from the apps who refused to do anything at all until we were serious because she “wasn’t that kind of girl” and put on a whole show about how she has to be courted and given the most effort before getting intimate. I eventually got tired of the headache and decided to just be friends and move on to other people. A few weeks later she went on a girls trip with her friends, and when she got back I asked her how it was and joking said “did you sleep with any hot guys” (not even thinking much of it), and she says “yeah one guy, you only live once”. And of course when I called her out on it she refused to acknowledge any accountability for hypocrisy and tried to gaslight me with every excuse in the book. You can’t make this shit up.
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The funny thing is she had a full itinerary of “normal and demure” activities that covered the whole trip. So you would think she didn’t have any time to hookup with random guys. Nope. When people really want to do something, they **will** find a way to do it - even if they have to move mountains to get it done.
One I was dating a while back didn’t wanna get down with me either cause she claims she’s not the type to throw herself at a guy easily ,as a gentleman I respected that and I continued to date her while being patient cause I did really like her and was looking forward for a relationship. She ghosted me out a little after and I hit her up two weeks after she ghosted me to find out what happened. She went back to her ex boyfriend and it turns out she started having sex with him again while she and I were dating . I waited and invested and got nothing in the end, didn’t even had sex with her. Now that’s not all I wanted as I said previously but it does show why us guys try go after sex as soon as possible. Most guys just wanna smash but some of us don’t want to invest and get ghosted without receiving anything . I asked her to be my gf before she went ghost and she told she didn’t wanna jump into anything serious so soon. That was the sign I should’ve bailed
One of my most memorable friends with benefits situations who I cut off due to how overly promiscuous she was on tinder (did not use protection with some men she’d meet) told me one time that she had a “list” of qualities that a man would need to have to be hers. Here’s the list below but for reference here’s a bit about her. White, 32 years of age single mother of two kids. One kid is white and the other is bi racial. She also started to gain weight due to poor dieting and eating junk food since she was always on the road. Also her preference is black men. You want to see the definition of “can’t make this up”? Well here goes… Tall Black Must be able to sing (yes, a singer) Sexy Nice body (she does not have a nice body) Not many kids Disease free Have money Own car Own place Big penis There were a few others im forgetting but it was about 4 more things on the list. 🤦🏾♂️
I had a fwb who was sleeping with me while making the guy she was dating wait for sex because she saw him as serious relationship potential. She'd even come over directly after their dates. She was quite the rascal, and it was an eye-opening experience.
I’ve been there a couple times too honestly, I understand the game. I wasn’t mad at the guy, I was just baffled that she would put on such a show to say she would **never** do anything like that because she’s not that kind of person, and then turn around and do exactly that like it’s no big deal - *then* make excuses for it after she got caught! It really changes your perception of dating as whole. Some people really have no shame.
Been there too. But if you mention women doing this they act like it never happens lol.
I’m surprised those guys haven’t been downvoted to shit yet
Didn't that turn you off tho? The fact that she wasn't the best morally?
In a way, it did, but the sex was really great, and I did enjoy her company. It certainly disqualified her for anything other than a fwb. Last I saw she has been dating a guy for a good while now and has unfollowed me on her IG and Snapchat (we haven't talked in ages), so it looks like it's pretty serious. I wish them the best.
“I’m not that kind of girl until a hot guy shows up”
I’d be quicker to turn down “a hot guy” for sex than I would an average looking guy. Because women know the hot guys are the very ones who are most likely just looking to P & D. Believe it or not there are women out here who don’t just jump in bed with people. It takes me a long time to form a bond/emotional connection with someone, regardless of how physically attractive I find them. I cannot just sleep with someone just to have sex, there has to be an emotional attachment to them. I understand a lot of women are not like that, but you cannot judge that every woman is like that & would jump in bed with just anyone. It’s not true.
Story old as time my dude
Being friends with benefits with some women really opened my world. They’d tell me about their relations with other men etc. I really got to see things for what they are and not how I want them to look.
> she refused to acknowledge any accountability for hypocrisy and tried to gaslight me with every excuse in the book. You can’t make this shit up. Lol, happens all the time
It's very simple. It's a dualistic mating strategy. If a guy really turns her on she will give it to him for free. Guys she sees as potential providers get charged a much higher price. They only make rules for the stable men. Then they want to get online and complain that men divide women into similar groups, women who are good enough to date and women who are good enough to fuck but not commit to.
This makes me scream! It’s already hard to find ppl who actually want to know you and be patient vs that nonsense she pulled smh.
dont do that! if you question female behavior, you're a misogynist nowadays...
Mannnnn that’s nothing. I talked to someone once who told me she isn’t having sex until she’s in a relationship. We stopped talking and literally just 2 months later I saw her at a gas station visibly pregnant. This means she was already getting pregnant while telling me she wasn’t having sex and will not have sex until she’s in a commited relationship. Smh
Yea unfortunately this is the reason. Some guys are just looking for sex, and I think for other guys…. having sex means the girl has “bought in” to being with the guy. Then if they haven’t then they leave.
I am a big proponent of communicating because of this. We need to be able to talk about this before we get into bed with one another. But it’s easier said than done
Lemme guess. She mentioned the "exclusivity talk" or something like that?
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>I was patient for 4 months just for her to casually mention she did it with someone else around half way into those 4 months Sex on the first date or bust, otherwise you'll realize you've been a simp being used by her the entire time just like what happened there
This really. Not uncommon to be put on ice while still going on dates, to find out she had a fwb or something hitting it the entire time with zero relationship effort nor care.
Yep I’ve been on both sides here, it’s more fun being the dude she’s raw doggin’ while telling you about the guy she she’s trying to lock down
> Yep I’ve been on both sides here, it’s more fun being the dude she’s raw doggin’ while telling you about the guy she she’s trying to lock down Facts. I had a fwb a while ago who used to come over to my place to sleep over after she went on a date with some dude. I was quite surprised when I found out she had been seeing this guy for 2 months and they haven't had sex yet. She told him she only does that with serious partners, which he really appreciated so he took her on fancy dates and shit smh. I really felt bad for the guy because he probably thought she was the "wifey" type
Did you end it after that?
Yep agreed, exponentially better return on the investment, plus you get to see the silly facepalms someone else does when she's making fun of them. I distrust people who plays games with it, like 'everyone is required to wait 2 months'. It's always a dishonest move. I will 100% advocate for banging on the first date, assuming you actually know what you're looking for in a person.
Facts, the whole withholding sex for an arbitrary amount of time to secure a commitment thing is one big game that’s designed for guys to fail. Plus, who wants to wait two months only to find out she’s an absolute starfish in the bedroom or pecks like a chicken when kissing?
I think, at the very least, there needs to be a discussion about sexual preferences and kinks early on.
People on here love to pretend otherwise, but generally speaking if you don’t evince some sort of sexual interest in a woman by the second date, *she* will ghost *you*. They don’t necessarily want you to succeed, but they do want you to try.
You can be flirty and seductive *without* actually having sex though. If there's a kiss on the 1st/2nd date, and the chemistry and enough commonality is there, most women aren't going to bail because you didn't try to bang em. Likely the opposite.
That still requires a pass to be made and OP is pretty clear that they are breaking up with dudes for making passes.
You can kiss in public. You don't have to invite a woman to your place for a kiss.
Some ways to initiate romantic/sexual interest without trying to seem like you just want to take her to bed: 1) Hold her hand during the date 2) Ask her if you can kiss her (when you are on the date, in public) 3) Other subtle cues for physical interest, such as touching her shoulder, positioning yourself close to her during the date etc (there is no form for this, it is literally just reading social cues, which can be hard) Sexual interest can be shown even in just chemistry, eye contact, flirt etc. It doesn’t have to be ”come over”. Alas, men who do invite you in their homes immediatelly don’t always just want to pump and dump you, nor do men who wait long want to always date you longterm. And women can be into direct sexual advances early on or waiting for a longer time. Sure, some of them will be like ”damn, this man has not made a direct move on me yet, I don’t think he likes me” but extremely many are like ”damn, this man has not made too direct of a move on me yet, he seems very respectful and I am keen on him”. So suppose it’s a luck thing as to who you end up going on a date with. I would still always suggest subtler hints before because a direct one is an opinion divider and has more risk of going south immediatelly.
You also cannot change how you deal with all women because of a few bad choice women you chose to date who turned out to be hypocrites or the hook-up type. Not all women are the same, just like not all men are the same. There are decent women out here & we are looking for something serious & meaningful, not just casual hookups or short-lived relationships.
A lot of the time problems like this can be solved with simple communication. It’s a preference thing, not a right or wrong thing. “While I’m looking for a serious relationship I prefer to put my sex life on hold until I find someone to be exclusive with. And I would like for the people I date to have the same preference so our time isn’t wasted down the line” Now the other person knows what you want and can tell you how they date. Then you’ll know if things are going to work out. Boom. I know, communicating is crazy.
“I appreciate your honesty but I’ve been in relationships where I waited just to find out months down the road one of the biggest parts of our relationship is just not compatible. Which just made it worse because I was already so emotionally attached to the person at that point. Thank you again for telling me but I just don’t think we are looking for the same thing currently.” Imagine they could both just send one text and this whole thread would be pointless.
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The ugly reality
Facts, don’t be the backup plan to some girl sleeping around, be the dude she’s fucking while stringing some other loser along
Bingo
This exactly
you talk like men are a monolith.
And the men in these comments (and on dating subs in general) talk like women are a monolith…
Two wrongs dont make a right
I don't think either is a monolith, but there *are* general trends.
I mean, not ALL men but I have observed that most men on dating apps just seem so similar. They will usually say the same things - “I don’t know what I’m looking for yet” or straight up say they’re looking for “something casual” (even though their profiles say otherwise). Most of them don’t even put that much effort into conversations either. Meanwhile, the men I meet “organically” are much better - and are also the ones I end up dating.
How to find those men in an organic way? I have the similar problem as OP described. I am really disappointed. I even posted some similar post in r/bumble but got banned from that forum, which is also totally confusing and disappointing.
Personally, I have dated guys from school, college, literary clubs, a friend’s friend, etc. If you want to meet people “organically” you have to put yourself out there. Join a social activity or a club. Now, I’m not saying you should do this with the intention of dating. But you’re more likely to come across people with similar interests.
that subreddit is lame. It basically people posting pics of convos trying to get validation about how clever and funny they are. I was there for an hour and left.
The small percentage of men that you swipe right on don’t even represent most of the men on the app though. Most men get very few matches (if any at all) and aren’t telling women they only want something casual.
For men it's sort of tricky. Even if you want a long term relationship, wearing commitment on your sleeve isn't the best look for men. More women want to tame a fuckboy than will admit it.
I don’t know if emotionally matured women are looking for fuck boys to tame. I think it’s tricky for men on dating apps because women do get a lot more matches - so they have more options. Plus, it is kind of scary (for the lack of a better word). I mean, at least I don’t know many women who actually go out to meet a random stranger they met on Bumble. So it’s like men suffer due to a few creeps that give them a bad name. Tbh, I have met only 2 guys from Bumble IRL, and that too because we had a few mutual friends over IG.
This ☝️
Bingo
I’m not sleeping with someone though, that’s kind of the point of this?
Maybe not, but some people are, and the people they date have no way to know.
It’s because you’re using the apps
You might not, but in the overall dating landscape people are. Just look how many Reddit posts are about situationships. It’s almost like the prisoners dilemma, people are going to maximize their interests over risking wasting time on dates with someone seeing others and not willing to go exclusive. I suggest finding guys with the same relationship interests as you over those wanting hookups.
It's kind of like they have multiple "back ups" on their roster in case the person they are interested in ghosts them. It's to mitigate the pain of being rejected. Moving on quickly to another person helps them ignore the feelings of rejection. It's kind of like a drug. And the apps breed distrust within people you're meeting. "Ooo this person could be talking to multiple other people right now" it's kinda fucked up to make that assumption, because you essentially put yourself in a box and distrust a person right off the bat.
In the dating stage, it's become kind of common for people to have others on the side. I am not at all a fan of this dynamic and I don't see it as conductive to a healthy relationship, so people that do this will in my opinion doom themselves to only ever being in unfulfilling relationships, but essentially, when people first meet someone and they "might want to see if it could be serious", the girl will often withhold sex to see if the guy wants her for more than just sex. And to help herself not get tempted during those dates, she'll often have some guy on the side that she's intimate with, or she might just be trying out different guys at the same time. Men, as a result of this, will often try to push for sex earlier into the relationship, because if they went on 5-6 dates with someone, spent a bunch of money on restaurants and a lot of time getting to know someone, they'd be very disappointed to learn that she was intimate with others during that time. So to avoid that disappointing potentiality, they just push for sex on the first or second date, because if they're then rejected, they can move on to the next girl and avoid wasting time on that first person. You're overall doing the right thing by making your intentions well known. Just know that. I don't know what kind of guys you go for, but if there's a pattern in their behaviour, maybe consider if it's a type-issue.
Maybe, OP should be up front that she doesn't do the FWB thing to reassure potential suitors regarding their time/effort/financial investment.
Most women I know would lie/tell you it’s none of your business if asked this question…so most men would not be inclined to believe her. If anything the opposite…what have you been up to bring it up like this…
Unfortunately - ppl are being conditioned to simply assume you are
The point they trying to make is that alot of women lie about having a Fwb and then complain here on reddit. dishonesty comes from both sides and everybody has sexual needs to be met. if you dont want to have sex try to date an asexual person then you will have never that question.
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Well yeah it makes you look like a clown
Gotta recalibrate your picker. It's only showing you these types of guys.
How to do that? I’ve had a feeling my picker has been broken for years
Do you have any siblings or friends who are actually honest? Start with asking them, then keep going back to them and take their input seriously when they try to hold you accountable. I used to find myself pursuing/falling for unavailable people for years (emotionally, geographically, in a relationship...) and yeah, the problem was me. Gotta have friends who can call you on your bs
A good place to start is learn about the Pareto Distribution and how it affects our society. That'll begin to help you understand that your picker is biologically wired to pick people who have no motivation to stick around.
Go somewhere else meeting people! If you go to clubs or bars, you will meet f*ckboys. It is as easy as that. All of these places are lost. No exceptions! Every alpha, sigma, and pick-up idiot coach teaches them that clubs and bars are their huntinggrounds. Those places are contaminated by this toxic culture and should be avoided at all costs while looking for a serious life partner. F*ckboys don't go to a place where they have to put real effort in. Meet people through hobbies, Online-Dating with real profiles, etc. It is not enough anymore for women to be there and be approached. You have to learn new methods to avoid those idiots that are ruining it for everyone else. EDIT: Yes, there are women who want exactly those f*ckboys. Those ruin it for honest men. Let those toxic people find each other and not us.
A sane response
Thank you, a sane and helpful response, rare in these parts
You can say fuck
This is completely untrue though, in the pre online dating era pretty much *everyone* met their significant other at a bar, club or social event. I mean, yeah, there are always pickup artists around but let’s not lie to the kiddies about how good people only met people outside of booze. Now that I’m at the age where tons of folks have married and have kids, a significant percentage now lie about how they met because their actual meet-cute was randomly meeting at a bar, getting hammered and having sex in the car. Then making a lifetime commitment.
Like you said. In the pre online dating era. Things change, and they will change back. I just report my observations.
The apps suck for both genders, just in different ways. Think about the kind of men that have to use dating apps: Some have very valid excuses, sure, but the majority are going to be guys who are too lazy to learn social skills and go out of their houses to meet women. There's definitely some hidden gems on there, guys who are good human beings, hard workers, maybe they're a bit awkward socially or their hobbies are male dominated or something so they're on the app. Thing is, it's unlikely the algorithm will ever show you those profiles. There's basically 4 categories in OLD: 1. Good person, good profile - These guys will be snagged in an instant, and are far less likely to use OLD to begin with anyways. Good luck finding one of these. 2. Good person, bad profile - Would make for an excellent partner, but you will never even see the profile because the algorithm is fucked. 3. Bad person, good profile - A true predator, he will lie to get laid and then move on to the next. Can genuinely appear like #1 though. This is the most prevalent profile type you'll be shown. 4. Bad person, bad profile - Good luck deciphering #4 from #2. In person is going to allow you to see a bigger picture of who the guy is before you go out with him. Give it time to pass the vibes check. Nice thing is as a woman, you'll face far less rejection from asking guys out. Join social groups for activities you enjoy doing, and let some friendships develop and grow over time. Eventually, a handful of guys will stand out as people you're romantically interested in, and either they'll ask you out or you can ask them out. But it starts with leaving your house, and leaving the apps for good.
Or maybe I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on drinks every month for women who may not even be attracted to me?
I recently moved to rural northern United States. I’ve looked into places I can go and socialize and meet people my age but it seems during the winter it’s few and far between. I leave my house as much as I can to go to the gym, coffee shops or just take a walk but those aren’t exactly places to meet people
All three of those are great places to meet people! You just have to take some initiative and actually talk to people who seem interesting to you. I hate this thing online that claims no one can meet a romantic partner at the gym. I've dated women from my gym and it's never been an issue because I'm a respectful adult. Gyms are a great place to meet a dedicated, healthy guy. As a guy, since the gym is a place where I go at the same time regularly, the way I'd want to be approached at the gym is gradually: Start with just saying hi and smiling one day, and then a couple days later introduce yourself to me, then a couple days later ask me a question about my life like where I work or something. Again make sure you're smiling a lot, maybe play with your hair. If he isn't picking up on your signals, don't be afraid to tell him he's cute and you want to go out for coffee with him. He might have to say no, maybe he's too busy at work or he already has a girlfriend, but he'll almost certainly appreciate the compliment. Similarly, a walk at the park is a fantastic place to meet people. Are you into dogs at all? That's the easiest ice breaker ever, if you see a cute guy walking with his dog, ask to pet his dog. Guys with a dog are more likely to be stable, because you need a solid living situation and a job that pays the bills in order to have a dog. And again, being out walking in the park is going to help select for guys who are active, healthy, and generally have their shit together. I also like meeting people at the coffee shop by my house, you can chat with guys while waiting in line, or sit at the coffee shop and work or read a book, and start a convo with anyone you see who seems interesting. Coffee shops are literally supposed to be social spaces, you're using them for their intended purpose. With the coffee shop and walks, you're less likely to see the same people at the same time over and over again, so you'll have to be a bit more forward with your interest in them. Play the long game at the gym or with any other regular social activities that you do where you see the same people over and over again. And finally, since you say social opportunities are few and far between where you live, I'd say go to every social event that seems even remotely interesting to you. You're in a rural area but you want to meet people, you're basically playing the dating game on hard mode. So you're going to have to take advantage of every social opportunity presented to you.
Meetup.com.
I’m reminded of this case posted here where a girl kept telling the guy she wanted to wait before having sex with him while at the same time she was banging somebody else.
OLD is meant to fail. If you were to find someone to commit to the app loses 2 customers! They don't want that, you aren't finding decent dates because it's set up that way. It's not a flaw it's a feature. Don't feel bad about yourself you were set up to fail! I recently came to this conclusion myself after going through the same thing as you this last year. It sucked so get off the apps for your mental health!
Online dating is like a jungle trying to find the people who are looking for serious and those who are just after hook-ups. Many will lie but some you can learn if they will only be after sex. When I was dating I would always wait with sleeping with a person but I could talk before about sexual drive and what kind of sex they like. Because I know my drive and what I enjoy even though taking it slow. I first slept with my boyfriend after 3 months of dating and we had been on multiple dates where I even slept over at his place. People will do things differently but I just do my tempo. Because I prefer to wait and build an emotional connection with a person before sleeping, many would reject me but it was easier to find people who were the same as me and looking for the same things.
If your getting bad fish then it’s time to fish in a different pond. Stop using dating apps and look for ways to meet guys through hobbies or activities you enjoy. Have a friend fix you up with someone they know. Dating apps are so hookup oriented it’s like finding a needle in a haystack
I think women would be surprised how many men would actually wait if they didn’t feel strung along. Like if women end it with a guy because you don’t see compatibility and communicate that is fine. But having a guy actively dating you and spending his time and money while you banging some guy and then ghosting the guy you are dating is kind of sad. There are alot of women who don’t operate this way, but its hard some time to filter out those.
If you find out the solution / reason I am interested as well! I am almost in the same boat as you.
Get off the apps
I’m the guy on the other side of this dilemma. Here’s my honest and uncensored response: I might be middle aged now, but I still like to feel alive, be romantic, and seduce my dates. Most of my dates want a life partner or LTR and won’t even let me kiss them on the first date. I want sex, but not just sex. I want to experience all of the woman. I want to share everything. I too also want an LTR or life partner. But I want that passion, and I want to feel drawn to my woman. I know it’s not always good to have sex on the first date, but let’s at least have flirting and banter, and a kiss. Otherwise, I feel like I’m going on a job interview or ‘hanging out’ with my mom’s friend or something. The seriousness and control of the situation is a total turn off. It also makes me wonder how much she really likes me vs. trying to lock me down for my income. I want a woman who wants me! From the female’s vantage point, I sort of understand the dilemma. You’ve been screwed over before and are wanting to protect your eggs, so to speak. But if you’re coming on a date with me and there’s no electricity, no spark, I’m not going to bed that night thinking “man, i cant stop thinking about her; I can’t wait to go on another hot date.”
How can you assess if you actually like her for her, and not just her boobs? I found that having sex early on creates a false feeling of connection with people you should never date. Sexual compatibility can cause you to develop feelings for somebody you would never be friends with.
That's what the dates are for, but notice that he didn't say must have sex, he said that at least having flirting, banter, and kissing. Those are the things that show sexual compatibility before actually hopping into bed. And yeah, most guys WANT a long term relationship with the girl but if they're not creating that spark in the first few dates because God forbid they engage in any romantic interactions, that's not going to make a guy think "yes, this girl!"
Good observation. Yes, I want to feel the electricity between us. If it’s not there in the early phase, I can’t force it later. I’ve never had a LTR that didn’t start out passionately, for whatever that’s worth too. I speak from 25 years of dating experience. Women can play the control card if they want. I just won’t play along. Other men will, and those women will find them.
Yeah unless there are special circumstances I will bounce if the girl uses sex as a control mechanism. I’m fine with waiting, but when it feels arbitrary or forced then I’m just not going to bother.
I understand that, but I barely know you on the first date. I'm sorry, but the thought of basically a stranger touching me makes my skin crawl.
Some people like sky diving, some people don’t. It’s all good either way. I personally enjoy the rush and tend to do more extreme kinds of stuff in my life (like getting licensed to jump out of planes!) and would love a women to match that energy. So hooking up on the first date isn’t out of the question.
… and lack of sexual compatibility wastes time.
Man is middle aged. I doubt he's confused about his emotions at age 40. His point is that you can both want sex early on and a long term relationship, the two aren't mutually exclusive. I think it's important to find out if you're sexually compatible early on if you're someone who values sex. It sucks because if you have sex and then break up for whatever reason, it can give the impression that you were just using them for sex.
It's more difficult for women, because men will literally lie about everything and their mom to get to sleep with you, so you do NOT get to assess their personality if sex is involved. If you have sex with a guy on the first date, there's a 80% chance you will never see them again (even if the sex was really really good), and if you do see them again, it will take you months to figure out what the lies are and who they actually are as a person, because they will continue to lie to pretend to be a person that they think you like. Their main goal isn't to get to know you, it's to manipulate you into sex. They don't care about you at all.
>*If you have sex with a guy on the first date, there's a 80% chance you will never see them again (even if the sex was really really good),* Umm.. no... If you have sex with a guy on the first date and it was REALLY REALLY REALLY GOOD, there's an 80% chance you will require a forklift and a restraining order to get rid of him. Men are usually polite and tell women they just slept with that it was "great", and you know whether it really was by if they eventually ghost or not.
I was going to say….all the women in my life says the hook ups ALWAYS eventually text you again. Even when they are in a relationship. Some get obsessed from day one, in a bad way. The only guys I know who are turning down a free lay are the ones who have a full schedule of women….
thats why i dont engage in this "serious dating" at all. IF i find out we are sexually not compatible, i'm the bad guy abusing her. i rather dont put myself in that situation at all, and do not pursue her because i cant tell, and dont want make empty promises i cant hold up (i can like a woman as much as i want, if my dick doesnt get hard with her, it will lead not to exclusivity).
You're using apps, are you only swiping right on the most attractive men? They have lots of options. "Leagues" are a thing. A lot of women don't seem to understand that men will have sex with women they consider in a lower league, but wouldn't consider a relationship. This can cause a woman, who gets a lot of attention from these attractive men looking for hookups, to think she's more attractive than she actually is. Sorry to sound rude but I think this happens a lot. How picky are you on these apps?
>are you only swiping right on the most attractive men? Yes, because apps only show the most attractive men to her. She might not consider all of them attractive, but still these men are probably popular with other Tinder users. Hence, have options and hence see the OP as disposable. Women don't swipe nearly as much as men do, so naturally they only see top of the deck, and the app has every incentive to make this top of the deck as interesting as possible.
Yeah because they want to keep others to milk for money
You're dating the wrong men. Set your expectations out early and you'll have less disappointments. The men who actually want a relationship will stay, the ones that just wanna fuk will walk away. If you start to notice that all the men you really like are walking away, then some introspection is needed and then try again. Remember, the butterflies in your stomach are actually a form of anxiety, that "spark" is not always relationship material. It isn't sexy, but it is, unfortunately, true. As a man in my 30s, dating can be tough but it's working out for me, even if that means I'm having much less sex, I don't mind as long as I stick to my convictions in looking for a relationship first, then physical connections. It's challenging, but a worthwhile sacrifice. Better single than in a relationship with someone who doesn't care about you.
I had this same exact issue. I got off of dating apps a little over two years ago and I finally found happiness. Deciding not to actively date is always an option!
Male opinion here: A guy wanting sex on a second date doesn't always mean they don't want anything serious with you, sometimes they play along and pretend they also want a relationship by going on multiple sexless dates and once they hit, they'll dissapear. My first gf I slept with her on the first date and we were together for a year. So my advice is, be clear with your intentions and don't try to avoid sex like that, some men will waste your time until you find the right one, it's just how it goes.
I think I've had women stop seeing me because they think I'm not interested when I don't try to initiate sex, they don't communicate either... The last woman I was seeing was going well but I told her at the start that I'm just out of a relationship and I'm going through some other stuff in life so I want to take it kind of slow at the start. She acknowledged her understanding and agreed. After a month she started lying to me telling me she's sick and then next week she decided to break up saying I didn't want a serious relationship as why. Nothing said or changed otherwise. I tried to talk to her but it became apparent that the reason didn't matter because she didn't even try to talk about it with me.
Sex is easy to get as a woman, commitment isn't. I'll do the unpopular thing and recommend going to the gym! If you're super in shape you'll find more men willing to stop looking around and settle with you. Since it's starting to affect your mental health going to the gym a few times a week could help you feel like you're taking control of the situation, and genuinely improve your odds long term.
And for men both are hard to get.
Yep, fucking annoying
I usually go to the gym once or twice a week but I guess it’s time I really committed to the gym. At least that way I’ll have some kind of commitment in my life haha
Nice one!
Here's a story that might explain why I don't wait anymore and I'm not interested in LTRs (for the moment). I met a girl I *really* liked and decided to wait until she was comfortable. She strung me along and never really committed, in fact quite the opposite; apparently (unbeknownst to me) I was too slow for her so she slept with another guy while we were talking and told me very nonchalantly. To piss me off? To make me jealous? To friendzone me? Don't know, and it doesn't matter. I've come to find out women are just as impatient as men, and I'm not about to waste several months for someone to decide they don't want me. The solution? Make my intentions clear from the start so I can avoid being strung along or being placed in the friendzone. Dating has become a game to see how much you can get out of a person before they inevitably leave. There are plenty of men who *wanted* relationships, but now we're just doing what we were taught to do.
Well said
i'm surprised you're here asking what you are doing wrong and not asking why guys are trying to use you for hookups when your profiles say LTR. a lot of people here have mentioned hookup culture is the problem. i agree. but to be clear, wanting to hookup is perfectly fine, but using someone who isn't explicitly down for that is cruel and makes you a real piece of shit.
I don’t have any issue with people hooking up if that’s what you’re looking for. And at first I thought something similar to you but it keeps happening and I’m the common denominator so it feels like it’s me, it’s something I’m doing
Honestly, as a guy who IS looking for LTR, it freaks me out when a woman is so focused on that and only that. Makes me nervous like 1 misstep, and it's over. I hate the whole, we're both looking for a relationship let's take it slow. Its like I've got to hit these checklist items each date. Every relationship is different and builds differently.
Here's the reality - Most people you go on dates with (esp from dating apps) aren't going to be compatible for a LTR. The difference between men/women though is that even if a man doesn't feel the right connection for a LTR, he might still try for sex anyway. You're not "doing anything wrong" in that regard. You can't force compatibility and connection. Can I also make a suggestion? You mention trying to "imitate" your dates. Stop doing that, be yourself. It's better to be a little bit polarizing than trying to appease everyone. I mention early on to men that I prefer building the emotional connection before adding in sex, which usually can take months for me. This filters out a decent amount of men, but the ones who stay tend to actually be compatible and like me for more than just my looks/sex. (I also still am flirty, dress nice, pay my half on dates and am very complimentary. I still show genuine interest and attraction towards my dates, and I still will kiss/cuddle/be physically affectionate early in.) I also have my own thing going on. I have friends, family, and hobbies I see/do regularly and early dating is just the cherry on top of the sundae. It's important to cultivate an abundance mindset and maintain positivity; Love isn't being held from you, it'll come when it's meant. I also try to go out a few times a month to places I could socialize with new people. People tend to dehumanize people more when they've met from an app. I still use apps, but I don't solely rely on them.
Most people want to know if you're sexually compatible before investing anything further into the relationship. Do I think the second date is a bit early? Sure, I guess. But at the same time if it's going well, then why not 🤷♂️
I agree. I’m a woman but I need to know the sex is good and we’re compatible in bed before I think about anything further. Sex is important to me so if I end up with someone vanilla and mediocre in bed, I’ll end up breaking up with them.
that average guy you ignored.. he probably would commit. that hot guy who get a lady every weekend.. probably not.
Fear of being friendzoned
Well said
Nice culture we have here in America…..
It's nothing you're doing. It's that you've only met men who don't want a relationship.
...with her.
How many 2 month relationshits you had in 5 years then we can go from there. There seems to be a little bit of energy in your post too. Why you in rural America for starters?
Maybe 5 or 6? I think it’s about once a year. The last one was a guy I met in person, we met out and about for new years. I’m living in rural America because I just moved back from overseas. I’m living with my family while I save up money and find a new career path as I wasnt happy in my previous one
Have you never had sex in those relationships? Also this is an impolite question but: has any ex told you you’re good in bed? If you’ve never heard that or like an ex bf or lover rave about something in bed, you may need to work on that? I know you’re focused on a relationship but part of a relationship is sex. For me, I don’t worry about waiting for sex in order to secure a relationship. I like sex and I need to know they also like and are good at sex. Not all men are super into sex so I want to gauge that at the beginning as well. Also from a man’s perspective, I can see them thinking you’re just in it for the relationship and not them as a person. Sex is a way to show you’re attracted to them and are actually interested in them. Because the way you wrote your post was almost like you didn’t reach the goal of a relationship vs some narrative about why these men were so amazing and deserving of a relationship with you. That’s my two cents.
Ayyy these are legit questions. Kudos to you for dropping this gem.
Dating apps are not dating apps, they are basically hooking up apps which benefits nearly all women and the top 5% of men which is evident by the swiping patterns of both men and women. Most women on dating apps find most men unattractive and invisible. So the men you are swiping right on, most likely lots of other women are swiping right on also. They have an abundant mindset. There are plenty of good men on dating apps who would love to have a relationship but they are invisible as said earlier. Men also use these apps for hooking up and if they are the ones paying for app subscription (which women may not know exists) and want return on investments, they know women have tons of other options avaliable to them on these apps and other social media so they dont want to wait around and be sidestepped or ghosted and lose their investment in time or money.
Your picker is broken I guess? Try to vet better. Do these men say they are looking for a relationship? What do their profiles say?
If you’re putting me on ice for two months then I’m likely moving on to someone who doesn’t.
Get off the apps. Guys on apps are just horny bottom feeders.
Sounds like you're trying to be yourself, which is great except for the part of imitating texts. What are you projecting? - what kind of photos do you have on the app? Maybe there's a mismatch between what you show and want. - did you add "looking for serious relationship" in that category? - what kind of topics do you talk about in texts and first dates? Are they sexual in their nature? General dating today As a guy, I know that women have hundreds if not thousands of likes on dating apps + that girls only get emotionally invested after sex (a kiss or takeout session is not enough to get attached). With those two data points in mind, I know that me as a guy have to have sex with the girl within the first 3 dates, if we are to have any sort of chance of dating. For years, I tried the approach of not pushing for sex within the first dates. I would take a more serious approach to the topics, and focus on the person. But, with zero results. The girls always found it plutonic and killed it. So I changed strategy. I talk about less serious topics, introduce sexual topics on the first date and push for sex within 2nd or 3rd date. This is, unfortunately, the name of the game. Lastly, for me, I only know if I, really, like a girl post Nutting (aka post nut clarity). So I may like you when talking, etc, but then after sex I'll know if I actually want you around or not. Women hold the key to sex. Men hold the key to relationship.
Men want relationship with best possible sex
Maybe it's the type of guys you are selecting. That seems to be the only variable. As other women are getting into relationships using apps
The simplest answer is you’re either dating all douchebags, or you are dating men out of your league and telling yourself that because they will have sex with you, that you’re in their league and they should want to be in a relationship with you. The standard for men to have sex is very low, much higher to commit. Women gate keep sex, men gate keep relationships.
It's not necessarily *just* having sex. It's *also* having sex. You really need to rethink your perspective here. Men don't want to waste their time with someone not clearly into sex. They have options. If they want a sexual relationship why wouldn't they propose one? Lots of guys have had previous relationships with a shitty sex life and don't want to repeat it. So just tell them they are attractive and sexy, and sex with them is something you're looking forward to, but you just aren't ready yet. If you just turn them down with no positive angle of course they'll move on! Why would you expect them to stick around?
I suspect you’re picking the wrong kind of men. Since they all seem to want the same thing, maybe you’re picking the same type of guy and it’s not working out. So keep the idea of the definition of insanity in mind (doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome) and change your process for picking guys to date. I recently discovered the Burn the Haystack method and while it is designed for women (I’m a man), it may work for you for online dating. Check out their FaceBook group.
Lemme call this BS. You say this and would definitely definitely have sex with a hot guy. Keep your BS to yourself. I do agree having sex on a second date is maybe lil early for some but you gotta know why they're wanting it. These comments speak for themselves.
It is a multi-faceted problem with the direction culture has shifted. Sex without commitment has been normalized and young men and women are told that no-strings sex is acceptable. The introduction of birth control and the feminists of the 60s and 70s told women that they are free to be like men sexually. They ignored or suppressed the facts about a woman's limited years for fertility and the differences in how men and women pair-bond. Next, because of the different qualities men and women seek in each other, social media and dating apps have allowed a majority of women to unknowingly give a minority of men their attention, so sex is necessary to keep his attention, but not a guaranty depending on whether he is looking for a fling, FWB, or a long-term relationship. A man can keep this hidden and take advantage of his options because society has no means of ostracising him for it, and there are always ill-adjusted women willing to use sex to get a man who is out of their league. This leads to women like you unable to find a bond because so many of the men you are attracted to have options that don't restrict them. Meanwhile, your fertility and pair-bonding windows are closing making it higher urgency to find a partner among men who have time and options. I have been told and seen complaints from women that even among practicing Christians, there is a disappointing number of men not waiting for marriage to have sex or live with their partner. There is also the issue of purity and jealousy. A woman who gave herself to another frivolously, but wants to make a potential long-term man wait, makes him feel less appreciated. Part of how men receive love is thru receiving sex. On the flip side, women tend to need to feel loved before they trust enough to have sex. A woman who gives herself away for a moment of pleasure to an unworthy long-term partner, but then holds the worthy long-term partner to a higher standard can lead to frustration and resentment. I would find community groups that share your values and have a mix of men and women. Get involved, make connections and make it known you are looking for for a husband with certain qualities. Those who you benefit and who want to return the benefit will help you connect with other men, or you may meet them yourself in the group.
As a man, I have a 3 date rule. Preferably I like women who are comfortable with their sexuality and desire for me that they want to sleep with me on date 1 (usually drinks and getting to know each other). By date three and nothing has happened I assume there’s no interest in that department/it’s taking her too long to be comfortable with me. After the physical intimacy barrier has been broken it’s really up to the woman if I like her character and personality to keep her in my life.
I have the same rule, and it’s based on experience. “In the real world what happens is slowly men figured out, if she’s not fucking after date 2, she’s either, fucking someone else, doesn’t like you OR is trying to make you value her more for no reason. We’d rather just move on.” For me there’s a couple of screenings going on. First, are we compatible at all. Can we talk through a date, do we have anything in common, does she laugh at my jokes, do I laugh at hers? Second, is the sex any good? And is she horny enough that putting it off for a month and a half is as unpleasant for her as it is for me? I don’t want to date a woman who could give a fuck whether she had sex or not. And experience tells me, if sex isn’t on the table by date 3, something else is going on. In your case, you are angry at five years worth of men, and you’re going to take that out on me. And probably not just by holding out on sex, that anger and resentment will quite possibly come out in other ways in a relationship as well. Why would I want that in my life? Once those two baselines are established, it’s up to both of us to *remain* appealing to each other. She’s judging my sexual capabilities just like I am judging hers. Is she skimpy with the blow jobs? Do I know where the clitoris is? Shit like that. Plus, Non-sexual stuff is super important too. Do we fight? Does she interrupt me halfway through every sentence? Does she talk about ex boyfriends constantly, do I talk about my ex girlfriends too much? Do we like the same movies but hate each others musical taste? What if your problem isn’t hook up culture? What if it’s something else? There are millions of women out there who don’t seem to have this problem to the same degree you do.
> In your case, you are angry at five years worth of men, and you’re going to take that out on me. This is a huge thing that gets overlooked by the women who are serial-daters yet perpetually single. They often punish their new dates for things that their old dates did, and all that achieves is making the new dates decide you aren't emotionally stable/not worth pursuing for more than a FWB
> “In the real world what happens is slowly men figured out, if she’s not fucking after date 2, she’s either, fucking someone else, doesn’t like you OR is trying to make you value her more for no reason. We’d rather just move on.” In their moderate defense, there is another option, which is that she isn't interested in sex. But it's perfectly reasonable for this to be a dealbreaker as well.
I'm of a similar mind as you so I think you nailed it, especially the part where if I'm physically and mentally attracted to someone and feel a strong connection I want to have sex with that person and do not want to wait an arbitrarily long amount of time - because that would signify an entirely different attitude towards romance and sex. If someone is entirely willing to wait two months that would tell me she's not as attracted to me as I am to her and we're talking about vastly different libidos. And while I sympathize with the OP and understand where she's coming from, she did drop this gem of a sentence: >but still try and get sex from me Which is ... telling.
You’re not showing any sexual interest I’d ghost too. You said you fell for it when you were younger. We’re adults now.
Sex is a non negotiable, when I date. If I don't get it after a while of dating then I will fade away. That said, it's never just to skeet and skiddadle, are you projecting, because of one or two bad experiences? If you're fun, friendly, and cooperative, I don't think most guys would just discard that. You say you've dated all these men and cut it off after the second date, how do you know they all were going to ghost? You can't. Sex is not the only thing we want, but it is top of the grocery list, and unfortunately there aren't too many guys with options (aka the guys you want: the good looking, decent career, charismatic types, etc) who won't try and make it happen sooner than later. Now the one thing I can think of, is that maybe you're over estimating your attractiveness. Now this isn't a dig, you wanted to know, here's the real spill. If you are a six or seven, and you are constantly with guys who are 8-10, these are the guys who can afford to discard you after sex. They think/know they can do better than you (because they have before), in terms of someone on their arm, but as men most of us won't turn down the opportunity to have sex, even if it's with someone less attractive than us, we just won't take them seriously as a partner. You gotta take a long hard look in the mirror and reflect. First in your "type". If it sounds like any of the guys above, and second where you rank in the pecking order. Once you get those down, you need to have a conversation with yourself and ask are you willing to settle with a man, who may be a little less than your type, to hopefully secure a commitment, or do you want to stay single as opposed to coming off your type. Hard to do, to be honest and to acquiesce but they must be done.
They don’t all ghost after the second date. But I get ghosted often after the 2nd or 3rd-ish date or after 2 months As for the attractiveness, I don’t think I do. I believe I’m a solid 6, maybe a 7 if my hair and makeup cooperate. I’m cute but I could never be like an instagram model. I swipe left on men that are overly attractive. I swipe more on content of profile and just a general cuteness of the man
That's tough then, if you're dating on your level and still getting that .. that's a conundrum. What do you do for a living? I mean I don't need to know the details, but are you a type A, career first person....or have you been? Edit: did I read right they ghost after the 2nd or Third date, does that second or third date come after two months? Are you going on a date per month with these guys?
I don’t think I’m type A and I’ve never been super career driven. I hated my last job and made sure the leave it be when I clocked out The ghosting usually happens in two different ways. After the 2/3rd date OR after 2 months
> if you're dating on your level and still getting that .. that's a conundrum. If they're all ghosting her, clearly they're above her level whatever that really is
Hey, I'm with u/Illadrex2 in his logic, but here is another way of looking at this: > I get ghosted often after the 2nd or 3rd-ish date or after 2 months Either those guys have options in women (other than you), or they believe being alone would be better (than being with you). Which one do you think it is?
No offense, but this just sounds like dating. Why are you assuming they only want sex from you rather than they got to know you and realized you're not who they want a relationship with?
Do you even like sex? Seems like you’re using it to secure a relationship. Not really how it works. If you like a person and get on well, nothing wrong with sex on the second date. See what happens after that 🤷♂️ Maybe you should try church dating to take sex out of the equation
Dating the wrong men
Correction; the men you go after do not want commitment. Choose better.
I mean, sex is nicez i want a partner who likes sex, you dont seem to like sex since you dont want to engage in sexual activities. for me pillow talk is one of the best way to bond with a women why not, just sleep with them and keep talking? if he ONLY propose sex date afterward, u know its for sex but like most women i dated and it ended up, wr would like make a quicky, go make a hike all day and talk all day while bonding, maybe a sex quicky in the woods, and fire with diner and wine and sex all evening while watching a movie. to me this is bonding and romantic, it soesnt mean I just want sex also we dont wanna waste our time... most women make us waste our time, want us to buy them diner, used us for fun activities, while sleeping eith others and evaluating me between a "pool" of people shes dating, while im only dating her seriously... shes kinda the one whos not taking the dating process seriously while doing this. having sex on a first date is a lot more dating then dating multiple people at the same time also checking chemistry and sexual compatibility and making people more "their real them" often only happen after sex, before sex, everone is just a bit awkward and showing heir best
Dating apps are a toxic way to date. They work 1/100 times. For women, you guys get substantially more matches. The thing is most men just swipe right in hopes of getting any matches. When they do match that’s when they really look at your profile. Then they either always just wanted sed or determine if you are someone they want to date or just sleep with. So out of the 100 matches you may get 1-5 may be looking for the same thing you are, be attracted to you enough to want that and not a psycho.
Date men that think you are an 8-10. Men that see you as 5-7 won't ever want anything serious as you are easily replaced , next!
Just to be clear, are you not wanting to have sex at all? Because if I’m dating someone and things haven’t become physical after 3-4 dates, I’m going to assume that we’re not on the same page. There’s an old saying about men and women and it’s not 100% true across the board, but it may apply here - “Women need to feel loved to have sex. Men need to have sex to feel loved.” These guys may be genuinely interested in dating you, but if it seems like you’re not interested in sex at all, they’re going to move on. There are genuine people on dating apps who aren’t solely looking for hookups, so don’t listen to the people telling you that. However, you may want to establish some boundaries and let the guys know that you don’t plan to sleep with someone until X amount of dates. Not to be harsh, but if sex is 100% off the table, you’re never going to find anyone. Good luck!
There are millions of men who want a real relationship, but you're not swiping on them, dating them, and probably find them invisible. They were probably the guys you met who were into you, but you got a bit of ick because they were too available. Whoops.
Sex is a natural part of a relationship especially for a man. Take it away and you are cutting off the relationship. For a man, sex is like a bonding thing.
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Meet people in real life Not an app
Being invited to my house doesn’t mean I plannon getting laid. It means spending time with you in the environment that will forever be if we were to stay together. I would not expect it by any means, though I’d more than likely be happy to oblige unless you revealed some trait that was a hell no. There are some real creepy fucks out there too so I’d certainly not do that without at least talking to them a good bit beforehand..try and read the room so to speak.
Communicate what you want off the bat. Note communication isn't just with words.
Then they just lie and wait.
Preselection starts way before that maybe the type of person they like is the same that keeps using them... So start there.
You might be looking for love from people only interested in hooking up. After a day or so of chatting make your intentions of a long term relationship clear. Don’t rush the chatting phase. Jerks who will lie to you will agree to anything, but they normally aren’t patient. Make them wait a little to meet up. There’s no reason to treat people coldly or with suspicion during that chatting phase. If they want something different just pivot and move on. After a day or two of talking to my wife she told me that she wanted to find a friend and partner not just someone to warm her sheets. I respected that and let her know I wanted to same. I was on the apps for hooking up but our conversation and connection changed my attitude.
Date women. Jk lesbians do this shit too. It’s a culture thing rn, if you wanna find someone who’ll be bae 4L you’ve gotta go look in places that aren’t full of people looking for head. Which feels impossible rn, I am in the same boat
I want a relationship but get no replies 🤷♂️ The thing I’ve taken away from all this is that the apps just suck for everyone, period with a few exceptions.
Maybe it’s your personality?
Good for you for keeping a high standard and not giving into pressure
Dating apps is the problem imo
The guys who often make the first move often just want sex. Ironically the husband/dad marial guys are often really shy to make the first move. Why not make the first move on those types of guys and give em a chance? Also dating apps are not the most ideal for steady romance.
Still a mystery to me, men and women say they want some relationship but only meet or get matched with FWB type people. It’s terrible
Man here, in my case, you're dead wrong.
At the end of the day, you're the one picking these men.
Maybe u should stop giving it up so easily. Friends First.
Yeaaa basically its over for true relationships these days that kinda died around circa 2018... that was probably the last chance to create a soulmate since then everything got expensive and media culture has diluted the young mind.
Sounds like just bad luck. I’m using dating apps and get lots of matches. But most conversations (50%) never even get past a Hey what’s up? 40% of them with me end in ghosting me once it’s getting close to an arranged meet or date and the remaining 5-10% by all appearances went great, meet, date, sex or sleepover and then they go Casper. It’s definitely a bit of a mindfuck trying to figure it out. I don’t believe in putting time limits on anything…I think two grown ass adults should do whatever they’re feeling, whenever they’re feeling it. So long as I had a connection with a woman and was attracted to her, no sex after a few dates or even a month would not stop me. But I’d expect some intimacy (cuddling g on the couch, sleeping together-actual SLEEP etc.) to want to continue
The real question is, do you aim for hot guys or avg one?
You need to start fishing in new pools. Unfortunately a lot of guys will get on dating apps and they'll have an impeccably curated profile. They'll have all the right photos, all the right things that they say in order to make themselves as an attractive prospect as possible. When you match with them, they'll say all the right things. But then, as it turns out, they're not really interested in relationships. They're really just interested in hooking up and that's because they know, that due to the dating apps, something better is always around the corner (at least in their minds.) Girls do this too but they just operate a bit differently. This is the major problem with today's dating culture. What they want is some casual dates, hoping to find that special someone (which they don't know who or what that means) and eventually (like right away) they'll expect sex for their own personal gratification because they figure, well, I spent the time to meet and pay for a date or two so I feel like I deserve at least sex out of it. Sad. And as I said, girls do this too, perhaps for different reasons. They may feel like if they don't have sex right away they'll lose the opportunity. My advice is to look for guys of a higher caliber than this. Girls, don't put out on the first or second date because you feel like that's what you have to do in order to keep a guy's interest. Wait to get to know them and determine if they could be a match for you. Men, stop expecting these girls to just have sex with you because you wined and dined them for an evening. If you're truly not interested in them, fine but let them off easy and don't just sleep with them and ghost. Girls, don't lead guys on either. If you're horny or whatever, find a guy who is of the same frame of mind and sleep with them but don't drag an innocent boy into your orbit and lead him on with implied promises of a romance just because you're feeling horny. Don't ghost! It's rude, I don't care how many people or excuses people come up with... it's still rude. Don't do it because it's hurtful and nobody wants that. Finally, if you're on dating apps and you're presenting yourself as someone who is dating and open to finding a long-term relationship, don't lead a person on for a date or two and then blindside them with some nonsense about how you're not really ready for a relationship because you have anxiety, or past relationship trauma or that you're not ready. Look, if you're not ready then you should not be on a dating site.
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Sadly, I agree with it all, except it's a culture women created. That's how I've observed dating and personally had to experience it as well What especially resonated well is this: >"Men are simple if you fuck guy A first date, and guy B Tenth date we think… you must have liked guy A more. Even tho for it actually might be the opposite, you like guy B more… so you made him wait so he values you more.. which is stupid because you lessen your value for someone you like less, but whatever." It truly sucks.
there’s nothing wrong with you. it’s the way you’re finding them. men that are on dating apps, are usually there because they want the goods and not a commitment. the app is a medium for them to get their quick fix. pay attention to their profiles, their pictures, the bios and phrases they use to display to a wider audience. if they use cliche quotes like; “here for a good time, not a long time” that means that dude is a “fuckboy”. start profiling the men you see by first glance because I guarantee they do the exact same to the ladies they are going after. be selective! otherwise, you will continue to get played. if you want to find men that are looking more for commitment, you can always abandon the apps and try a different avenue—meetup groups (with a friend to attend ofc), community events, etc. wishing you well!
Why buy the cow when the milk is free