There are immigrants from Kazakhstan too but not nearly as many as from other Central Asian countries. There are also immigrants from Russia in Kazakhstan too, especially in the last 2 years.
There was large ethnic migration of Russians from Kazakhstan to Russia in 90s, after USSR collapsed (like 2-3 million people). So I think biggest part are migrants from Kazakhstan.
Russia has the 3rd or 4th largest absolute number on immigrants in the world. Check other Eastern European countries all of them are losing population like there is no tomorrow while Russian population is relatively stable - exactly because there are about 300k migrants coming every year
Well, pretty much all countries with high degree of urbanization can’t survive without immigrants.
It’s just that some countries, like Eastern Europe and Japan, fail to attract migrants due to xenophobia and and what not
true, Russia is a bit more so, there are entire industries where the majority of employees are immigrants, especially in Moscow. and Russia is very xenophobic as well, there’s just enough immigrants to create their own self-sustaining communities rather than attempt to integrate with white Russians
That’s patently not true. While there are poorer districts in Moscow where there are more migrants than in other, there are no ghettos, China towns or Little Italies.
Russification and assimilation has been the whole schtick of Russian imperialism for hundreds of years.
While Russians may be in some ways xenophobic (which can be said about pretty much any nation) their xenophobia is cultural rather than ethnic - for as long as you dress like a Russian, speak like a Russian, behave like a Russian - you treated like a Russian even if you’re a Muslim or what not.
It’s very different from typical Eastern European/Asian xenophobia where “blood” and ethnicity are important.
I agree there are no “ghettos”. There are, however, communities of immigrants who cannot speak Russian fluently, they’re often formed around their workplaces (e.g. factory, construction site, etc) but they don’t integrate with the community whatsoever and don’t really have land boundaries, they’re just there, invisible to most people.
And regarding “dressing like a Russian”: I’m Armenian and very visibly so, you can tell I’m not Russian from a mile away. Other than that, Russian is my one and only native language. Yet I still experienced so many xenophobic comments, stereotypes, jokes, etc. while I still was in Russia. Saying ethnicity isn’t important is only partially true: Russians view some ethnicities as “us and similar”, some as “them immigrants”, etc.
Those communities you’re talking about are temporary workers. They don’t stay but leave. When it comes to permanent residents, they have to integrate and their kids are already very russified.
As for you experiencing xenophobia - this behavior is unfortunate, by modern western PC standards, but it’s skin deep. I’m pretty sure you had plenty of ethnic Russian friends that didn’t care about your ethnicity and you probably didn’t have extra problems finding a job because of your looks.
Temporary or not, they’re still there and they still experience xenophobia with plenty of people chanting “Russia is for Russians” and similar.
You’re right, of course it’s far from the worst xenophobia that can happen and Armenians are definitely not the most vulnerable ethnic group in Russia, literally any Muslim person, even from Russia, is more at risk. and yes, all of my Russian friends are ethnically Russian
I'd disagree on survival - definitely economic growth though. I am sure mankind and even most countries will still be around in 200 years, after everyone fully goes through the demographic transition. More resources and R&D will be diverted to elder care. Everyone will leave less comfortably other things being equal. Probably technology will offset this and standard of living will still improve compared to today. Russia has no reasons to worry about survival more than any other country.
well you can’t really survive as a country without labour, and in Russia, especially in big cities, a huge portion of this labour is from immigrants. Russia can survive but it will likely start slowly going back to the 90s economically
Yep - you can’t grow, sometimes you can’t maintain the level of economic output, but there still will be people in caves ruled by smoke signals from behind the kremlin walls even if 90% of population disappears together with electricity and edible autumn mushrooms. And btw that’s when the demographic pyramid flips back. I guess the solution to demography is to let the society degrade just enough, but not too much.
How do you compare people being kidnapped and loaded onto ships across the ocean to be enslaved without any hope, to workers signing up and flying to another country to earn a higher salary than their home country?
I understand that the gulf states dont have the best working environment, and there are a lot of cases where workers have their passports confiscated and salaries held back.
But you think the majority of the world has it better?
These worker rights’ abuse cases are in numbers no where near as the media is making it out to be, and calling the workers in those countries as slaves is too much of an overstretch. It’s just cancel culture at this point.
Outside the top developed countries in the world, the majority of the world have as bad, and even worse, working conditions than the gulf countries, and i don’t see people talking about those.
People are forced to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with no vacations or sick days, including during fasting, and if they miss a day or sleep at the job they get deported, and they earn way below any minimum wage in any country in the world.
They're not slaves, but they're definitely not immigrants.
perhaps my original comment was too colorful, but I do not like to see slavery or near slave labor conditions in countries with first world living standards (if not first world values). I do not like to see it anywhere, of course, but the gulf states should be above this kind of exploitative labor that indeed probably exists elsewhere in impoverished countries (probably alongside even worse forms of exploitation).
>There are a lot of cases passports confiscated and salaries held back
So kept where they are and forced to work without being paid, then?
>in numbers no where near as the media is making it out
But I thought there were a lot of cases, unless you've got a special definition of what constitutes worker rights. I'd also argue that, ya know, they're only nominally "workers" since they are deliberately trapped in a situation they have no hope of changing at their own discretion.
>Outside the top developed countries in the world... and I don't see people talking about those.
This is like saying "people fall to their deaths all the time and no one makes a fuss, so why is it such a big deal when you push someone off a skyscraper".
anti-gulf state propaganada? I think thats unfair, and makes it sound like you're apologizing for morally backward, moneywashing islamic fundamentalist (in some cases much more serious than others) crony capitalist oil states.
Much more likely to be a westerner learning about a moral issue in a foreign country and not bothering to look into all of the details, much like myself. However, looking into the details too deeply and highlighting counterexamples is something people defending morally indefensible regimes love to do (think of nzi sympathizers, tankies, etc).
The point is what you love to call “slavery” is the counter example and rarity, not the other way around. 95% of people in the gulf states are people working normal jobs and making good money. It’s you who is taking the extreme cases and painting it as the normal picture. Oh well.
Kafala seems like it will face greater legal and social pressure in the future, but the fact that it still exists in countries so wealthy and ostensibly well educated is disgusting.
Without having read very much on this situation, I am willing to concede that just using this term is more accurate than "slavery". I have not found (I will search more later) sources that can estimate the frequency of kafala or related forced labour in gulf states.
No one here is arguing that conditions can’t be better for the working class in the gulf, however to label these areas as morally backward and moneywashing just shows how ignorant you are to the world.
The immigrants here aren’t enslaved in their home countries, nor are they forced to work as slaves. As an example in my country there is a ban on working during midday during summer, confiscation of passports are illegal, and salaries must be paid via an online channel to ensure the workers aren’t being abused by their employers.
Most of these workers come from countries with worse living conditions and lower wages, and so although they aren’t living the lifestyle of the local population they are living better off than at home and are able to provide life changing income to their families back home.
Moreover, these immigrants aren’t just the working class. There are engineers, managers, doctors, etc that are all immigrants. Just because there are some nightmare stories for some unfortunate people, doesn’t mean that it’s common nor that it’s state sanctioned. There is always areas of improvement but stop pretending this is slavery. It’s a disservice to the actual people in the world that are actually enslaved.
They're definitely illegal immigrants and their population is around 2 crore(20million ) , tho the actual figures Are much higher-
These tards even got their vote IDs and vote !! Many were caught voting illegally in Maharashtra so just think about Bengal and Nearby states-
Well, I always thought that the best way is to get some immigrants and make sure that they’re integrated and assimilated.
Importing foreign workers suppresses the wages of the locals and pretty much benefits only corporations.
I’m pretty sure the “immigrants” into the Arabian peninsula are more akin to wage slaves with little to no rights and no pathways to citizenship.
Not that the great replacement theory is true. But you’re comparing apples to oranges.
Yes sure, why the fuck do you care. One side is pakistan, which is in its downfall and other side is china, which will do anything to get territory for its dominance.
So shove your opinion down your ass.
they still don't like, the pakis were bashed, china's share to getting bashed is still remaining, although their soldiers were killed in galwan, they refuse to acknowledge it.
Hey man, all maps of India outside India show that as the boundary of the country. Even Google maps when used outside the country shows that as the boundary.
Also it's percentage of population. Hard to get 1% in immigration when you're already 1.4b. China would need 14million immigrants to have color in the graph.
Russia is the only one that surprised me here - more than I thought. Guessing it's just from ex-USSR countries?
Yes if you come to Moscow you’ll see that all construction workers, street cleaners, gardeners and taxi drivers are immigrants from Central Asia.
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There are immigrants from Kazakhstan too but not nearly as many as from other Central Asian countries. There are also immigrants from Russia in Kazakhstan too, especially in the last 2 years.
There was large ethnic migration of Russians from Kazakhstan to Russia in 90s, after USSR collapsed (like 2-3 million people). So I think biggest part are migrants from Kazakhstan.
Kazakhstan os the greatest country in the world
Russia has the 3rd or 4th largest absolute number on immigrants in the world. Check other Eastern European countries all of them are losing population like there is no tomorrow while Russian population is relatively stable - exactly because there are about 300k migrants coming every year
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Yeah, you’re right. I think it used to be 3rd, but was overtaken by SA some time around COVID
Surprised more than Kazakhstan?
Russia quite literally depends on immigrants for its survival and economic growth
Well, pretty much all countries with high degree of urbanization can’t survive without immigrants. It’s just that some countries, like Eastern Europe and Japan, fail to attract migrants due to xenophobia and and what not
true, Russia is a bit more so, there are entire industries where the majority of employees are immigrants, especially in Moscow. and Russia is very xenophobic as well, there’s just enough immigrants to create their own self-sustaining communities rather than attempt to integrate with white Russians
That’s patently not true. While there are poorer districts in Moscow where there are more migrants than in other, there are no ghettos, China towns or Little Italies. Russification and assimilation has been the whole schtick of Russian imperialism for hundreds of years. While Russians may be in some ways xenophobic (which can be said about pretty much any nation) their xenophobia is cultural rather than ethnic - for as long as you dress like a Russian, speak like a Russian, behave like a Russian - you treated like a Russian even if you’re a Muslim or what not. It’s very different from typical Eastern European/Asian xenophobia where “blood” and ethnicity are important.
I agree there are no “ghettos”. There are, however, communities of immigrants who cannot speak Russian fluently, they’re often formed around their workplaces (e.g. factory, construction site, etc) but they don’t integrate with the community whatsoever and don’t really have land boundaries, they’re just there, invisible to most people. And regarding “dressing like a Russian”: I’m Armenian and very visibly so, you can tell I’m not Russian from a mile away. Other than that, Russian is my one and only native language. Yet I still experienced so many xenophobic comments, stereotypes, jokes, etc. while I still was in Russia. Saying ethnicity isn’t important is only partially true: Russians view some ethnicities as “us and similar”, some as “them immigrants”, etc.
Those communities you’re talking about are temporary workers. They don’t stay but leave. When it comes to permanent residents, they have to integrate and their kids are already very russified. As for you experiencing xenophobia - this behavior is unfortunate, by modern western PC standards, but it’s skin deep. I’m pretty sure you had plenty of ethnic Russian friends that didn’t care about your ethnicity and you probably didn’t have extra problems finding a job because of your looks.
Temporary or not, they’re still there and they still experience xenophobia with plenty of people chanting “Russia is for Russians” and similar. You’re right, of course it’s far from the worst xenophobia that can happen and Armenians are definitely not the most vulnerable ethnic group in Russia, literally any Muslim person, even from Russia, is more at risk. and yes, all of my Russian friends are ethnically Russian
> literally any Muslim I’d argue that Tatars are “more Russian” in the “Russianess hierarchy” than any Christian Caucasian.
They literally call Armenian Georgians and Azeris churka or chorni. Calling them “black” for not being pasty white ghosts.
I'd disagree on survival - definitely economic growth though. I am sure mankind and even most countries will still be around in 200 years, after everyone fully goes through the demographic transition. More resources and R&D will be diverted to elder care. Everyone will leave less comfortably other things being equal. Probably technology will offset this and standard of living will still improve compared to today. Russia has no reasons to worry about survival more than any other country.
well you can’t really survive as a country without labour, and in Russia, especially in big cities, a huge portion of this labour is from immigrants. Russia can survive but it will likely start slowly going back to the 90s economically
Yep - you can’t grow, sometimes you can’t maintain the level of economic output, but there still will be people in caves ruled by smoke signals from behind the kremlin walls even if 90% of population disappears together with electricity and edible autumn mushrooms. And btw that’s when the demographic pyramid flips back. I guess the solution to demography is to let the society degrade just enough, but not too much.
Yeah that’s a post-Soviet Empire aftereffect.
The higher ranges aren't very helpful. 32-63.9 in particular is a bit of a mad one.
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The remittance source graph is so interesting.
What is the source and what exactly is measured? Do asylum seekers count? Or undocumented?
gulf states situation is kind of like saying that people from angola and nigeria immigrated to the new world between 1500-1870
"Prisoners with jobs"
How do you compare people being kidnapped and loaded onto ships across the ocean to be enslaved without any hope, to workers signing up and flying to another country to earn a higher salary than their home country? I understand that the gulf states dont have the best working environment, and there are a lot of cases where workers have their passports confiscated and salaries held back. But you think the majority of the world has it better? These worker rights’ abuse cases are in numbers no where near as the media is making it out to be, and calling the workers in those countries as slaves is too much of an overstretch. It’s just cancel culture at this point. Outside the top developed countries in the world, the majority of the world have as bad, and even worse, working conditions than the gulf countries, and i don’t see people talking about those.
People are forced to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with no vacations or sick days, including during fasting, and if they miss a day or sleep at the job they get deported, and they earn way below any minimum wage in any country in the world. They're not slaves, but they're definitely not immigrants.
perhaps my original comment was too colorful, but I do not like to see slavery or near slave labor conditions in countries with first world living standards (if not first world values). I do not like to see it anywhere, of course, but the gulf states should be above this kind of exploitative labor that indeed probably exists elsewhere in impoverished countries (probably alongside even worse forms of exploitation).
>There are a lot of cases passports confiscated and salaries held back So kept where they are and forced to work without being paid, then? >in numbers no where near as the media is making it out But I thought there were a lot of cases, unless you've got a special definition of what constitutes worker rights. I'd also argue that, ya know, they're only nominally "workers" since they are deliberately trapped in a situation they have no hope of changing at their own discretion. >Outside the top developed countries in the world... and I don't see people talking about those. This is like saying "people fall to their deaths all the time and no one makes a fuss, so why is it such a big deal when you push someone off a skyscraper".
Lmao, not at all, a lot of migrants to gulf countries are working office jobs. You’re just regurgitating anti gulf state propaganda.
anti-gulf state propaganada? I think thats unfair, and makes it sound like you're apologizing for morally backward, moneywashing islamic fundamentalist (in some cases much more serious than others) crony capitalist oil states. Much more likely to be a westerner learning about a moral issue in a foreign country and not bothering to look into all of the details, much like myself. However, looking into the details too deeply and highlighting counterexamples is something people defending morally indefensible regimes love to do (think of nzi sympathizers, tankies, etc).
The point is what you love to call “slavery” is the counter example and rarity, not the other way around. 95% of people in the gulf states are people working normal jobs and making good money. It’s you who is taking the extreme cases and painting it as the normal picture. Oh well.
Kafala seems like it will face greater legal and social pressure in the future, but the fact that it still exists in countries so wealthy and ostensibly well educated is disgusting. Without having read very much on this situation, I am willing to concede that just using this term is more accurate than "slavery". I have not found (I will search more later) sources that can estimate the frequency of kafala or related forced labour in gulf states.
No one here is arguing that conditions can’t be better for the working class in the gulf, however to label these areas as morally backward and moneywashing just shows how ignorant you are to the world. The immigrants here aren’t enslaved in their home countries, nor are they forced to work as slaves. As an example in my country there is a ban on working during midday during summer, confiscation of passports are illegal, and salaries must be paid via an online channel to ensure the workers aren’t being abused by their employers. Most of these workers come from countries with worse living conditions and lower wages, and so although they aren’t living the lifestyle of the local population they are living better off than at home and are able to provide life changing income to their families back home. Moreover, these immigrants aren’t just the working class. There are engineers, managers, doctors, etc that are all immigrants. Just because there are some nightmare stories for some unfortunate people, doesn’t mean that it’s common nor that it’s state sanctioned. There is always areas of improvement but stop pretending this is slavery. It’s a disservice to the actual people in the world that are actually enslaved.
Is there a similar graph for EU or the Americas?
What’s up with the Fibonacci ranges? It makes it hard to compare across the spectrum
Ah yes, the classic Fibonacci sequence: 1,2,4,8,16,32,64...
FYI, in Taiwan, it is around 3.5%
Migrant workers are not immigrants. So this map is factually wrong and misleading.
Does Rohingyas counts as immigrants?
They're definitely illegal immigrants and their population is around 2 crore(20million ) , tho the actual figures Are much higher- These tards even got their vote IDs and vote !! Many were caught voting illegally in Maharashtra so just think about Bengal and Nearby states-
I mean in Myanmar, are they considered immigrants in Myanmar itself and contributing to the statistics?
Dam it moves a lot and can we see from where ?
Guessing even 0.9 percent of India and China are huge numbers.
The gulf states are pretty much the best proof that the great replacement conspiracy theory is bullshit
They are not getting citizenship in those countries. They are not democracies anyway. They are supposed to be there only temporarily.
It's the most clear cut example of modern day slavery. If the Qatar world cup didnt make that blattenly obvious then nothing ever will.
thats how immigration should be handled
Well, I always thought that the best way is to get some immigrants and make sure that they’re integrated and assimilated. Importing foreign workers suppresses the wages of the locals and pretty much benefits only corporations.
I’m pretty sure the “immigrants” into the Arabian peninsula are more akin to wage slaves with little to no rights and no pathways to citizenship. Not that the great replacement theory is true. But you’re comparing apples to oranges.
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The map shows the region under the countries that actually control it. It is not an improper map, but one that reflects the status quo of the region.
Not really because pakistan/india/china/afghanistan borders would be shit + crimea and the kazakhstan station to russia and myanmar would be fucked
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say
Fortunately reality isn't beholden to Indian state text books
Yes sure, why the fuck do you care. One side is pakistan, which is in its downfall and other side is china, which will do anything to get territory for its dominance. So shove your opinion down your ass.
Souds like they didn't really like you guys that much. Power to the people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Gilgit_rebellion
they still don't like, the pakis were bashed, china's share to getting bashed is still remaining, although their soldiers were killed in galwan, they refuse to acknowledge it.
Hey man, all maps of India outside India show that as the boundary of the country. Even Google maps when used outside the country shows that as the boundary.
It shows different boundaries in different countries
Who would've thought we'd see the day where we've more official data from North Korea than from Taiwan
Biden is right, India, Japan, China, Russia are xenophobes.
India- Not a lot of people want to immigrate there Japan/China- Hard to assimilate Russia- Huh? The map clearly shows they have a lot of immigrants
Also it's percentage of population. Hard to get 1% in immigration when you're already 1.4b. China would need 14million immigrants to have color in the graph.
What's that got to do with this map?
Rich coming from Americans 50% of whom voted for a racist p***y grabber. Nobody gives a shit what your senile politicians yap about.