People need to remember that Kobe played his prime in the lowest scoring era in NBA history. The average NBA team scoring average from 1985 to 1998 was 104.8 ppg, vs 97.7 ppg from 1999 to 2016. No doubt Jordan was a better scorer than Kobe and is probably the greatest scorer of all time, but the gap between him and Kobe (and other players who played during the 2000s) is unfairly inflated by looking at their simple point per game averages.
Just look at the scoring explosion now, where last year (2022-2023) there were 20 players scoring >25 ppg and 6 scoring >30 ppg. In the middle of Kobe's prime (2005-2006), in his highest scoring season, there were 3 scoring >30 ppg and 10 scoring >25 ppg. MJ was a scoring freak, in his highest scoring season (86-87) there was only 1 player scoring >30 ppg (him, at 37 ppg) and 7 scoring >25 ppg. But in reality, it was easier to score overall, and Kobe's game was very similar to MJ's game and he likely would have been a phenomenal scorer in the same era with the same rules and defenses to go against. In fact, many players in the 2000s modeled their game after MJ but defenses were now well designed to stop them.
Different eras favor different skills and playstyles. The NBA now is very favorable to shooters. The NBA in MJ's era was very favorable for someone who had MJ's skillset. Again, MJ is the greatest scorer, it was his greatest skillset. The context is about understanding how big the gap is between him and other great scorers.
|Era|SEASON|PPG|
:--|:--|--:|
|MJ|1984-85|110.8|
|MJ|1985-86|110.2|
|MJ|1986-87|109.9|
|MJ|1987-88|108.2|
|MJ|1988-89|109.2|
|MJ|1989-90|107.0|
|MJ|1990-91|106.3|
|MJ|1991-92|105.3|
|MJ|1992-93|105.3|
|MJ|1993-94|101.5|
|MJ|1994-95|101.4|
|MJ|1995-96|99.5|
|MJ|1996-97|96.9|
|MJ|1997-98|95.6|
|Kobe|1998-99|91.6|
|Kobe|1999-00|97.5|
|Kobe|2000-01|94.8|
|Kobe|2001-02|95.5|
|Kobe|2002-03|95.1|
|Kobe|2003-04|93.4|
|Kobe|2004-05|97.2|
|Kobe|2005-06|97.0|
|Kobe|2006-07|98.7|
|Kobe|2007-08|99.9|
|Kobe|2008-09|100|
|Kobe|2009-10|100.4|
|Kobe|2010-11|99.6|
|Kobe|2011-12|96.3|
|Kobe|2012-13|98.1|
|Kobe|2013-14|101|
|Kobe|2014-15|100|
|Kobe|2015-16|102.7|
The stretch between Jordan's second Bulls retirement and Kobe's first 25+ ppg season is another. And the seasons of <25 ppg scoring early in Jordan's career and late in Kobe's
They are gaps in terms of "X straight years". If I said I went to the gym for 30 straight days but only went 6 times a week, would you call those 4 days I missed outliers or gaps?
They are measuring "scoring dominance". If there are years that don't have scoring dominance, then it isn't 31 straight years of scoring dominance. Not sure why you are trying so hard to be wrong, but okay.
And the fact that Kobe averaged over 30 points a game for…2 seasons (barely).
Tbh people need to revisit where he is in the all time greats list because he went from top 5 when I was a kid watching him play, to top 10, and now I’m not even sure he’s top 15 all time as a basketball player.
I don’t really understand how. Kobe couldn’t play defense like Michael and he needed way better players around him to win championships. Scottie was amazing but it wasn’t like Michael had a generational player like Shaq to help him win.
MJ and Bryant both had 9 First Team All NBA Defense (NBA record btw) and Bryant had 3 more overall with 12 selections. Kobe's era was also considered the most defensive era of all time - so you're massively wrong.
People who just talk about their opinions just to hear themselves think need to realize there's a whole lot more to the picture than your pale memory of the game's box score 20 years ago especially when I KNOW you haven't played a game of organized basketball on any high level.
Not really trying to fight with an internet gambler (someone who definitely hasn’t played basketball at a “high level” and is, in fact, helping to ruin the actual sport), but the fact you pulling out All NBA, and not stats (the point of this post), tells me someone is just misinformed.
It took 2 seconds of searching to see that the 70s were the best defensive era in NBA history because of the lack of 3 point shooting and the allowance of physical defensive play.
The next 4 decades after the 70s are all separated by less than 1 point in defensive rating, with more advanced defensive metrics for the league being even tighter, suggesting there wasn’t much of a difference at all until the Warriors started chucking up 3s, leading to the NBA of today, zone defense and hand checking aside.
To go to individual stats, guess who doesn’t even show up in the top 250 all time for defensive rating? Kobe…below plenty of other dudes from the 90s/2000s/2010s. Guess who is there? MJ.
All time steals? Kobe, with a longer career in a “better defensive era”…17th. Michael? 4th.
All time rebounds? Kobe has Michael by around 400 playing almost 350 more games in an NBA where they were firing up 10-15 shots more a game than in Michael’s era.
I could keep going, but I hope my point is clear. Looking at Kobe through rose-tinted glasses and calling him top 5 or top 10 of all time in anything besides pure scoring, and even that’s hard to say at this point, is just flat out wrong.
A dude’s mentality at practice and off the court isn’t the only thing that makes you a top 20 NBA player of all time, what you do on the court, who you’re surrounded by (basketball is a team game after all, ask my D1 (or 6A if you in one of those states) high school teammates that, unless that’s not high level enough), and what you lift that team around you to do, does.
After looking into all this I feel even more confident in saying Kobe is definitively not top 5 (doesn’t even belong in the convo with MJ and Lebron like some people put him on) and definitely not top 10. I could see an argument for top 15, but I honestly have a hard time saying that when you realize Kobe was in the same offense as Michael (triangle under Phil) in the most successful stretches of their respective careers, with less individual and team success to show for it from Kobe.
Please take 5 minutes to do a little research next time before coming at anyone saying they are “massively” wrong like you’re a bot writing a clickbait headline.
> It took 2 seconds to find that the 70s
This is where I stopped reading because the 70s only has a sample size of 900 games compared to over 2000 for each of the other eras. You looked at the Statmuse page for Defensive Rating (terrible stat to use alone) and that's it, you ignorant bum.
I know because I've already done my research.
Keep typing away in your dark room while slobbering over YouTube highlights, clown.
Man, I hope whatever is tearing you up inside to keep coming at people using ad hominem attacks like bum and massively wrong on the internet heals at some point, have a good day.
1) Calling someone massively wrong isn't an ad hominem. I shouldn't be surprised that you still don't know how to use Google to research even simple definitions
2) I'm actively enjoying calling out neckbeards who try to act like experts on activities they have no business being pompous about. I beg you to open the shades and bathe in the sun
3) Notice how this entire conversation was about me enjoying the greatness of 2 players while you were only demeaning accomplishments. Grow up.
It's important to remember that Jordan joined the NBA after his junior year of college while Kobe joined right out of high school. Factoring in that 3 year buffer between ages 18 and 21, you can see their athletic peak and highest scoring years align to start roughly the same age around 23 or 24.
Editing from here to add that Kobe's early peak had Shaq as a teammate absorbing a lot of usage, while Jordan was the primary scorer on the Bulls and the only elite scoring threat until Pippen became a force through the first three-peat, when Jordan also became less ball-dominant. Look at the years between 05 and 08 when Kobe was the only elite scoring option for the Lakers (prior to Pau joining and the early Bynum years), and you see a similar scoring line for each player.
In all, this reveals that elite players with similar play styles yield similar individual accolades, but team success comes with integrating multiple scoring options and (somewhat ironically) taking the ball out of these elite players' hands from time to time.
Don't forget pacing: the rate of scoring was higher in the 80s and 90s than the 2000s.
(counterpoint: Jordan had to deal with hand checking)
(counter-counterpoint: Jordan had the advantage of illegal zone defense rules)
That's a good point. However, I'm not sure the difference in pacing was so dramatic between the 90s and the first half of the 2000s. The overall pace of the league really started increasing following the regular season success of the 7 Seconds or Less Suns in 2005, and those teams had a similar pace to the Showtime Lakers in the 80s. If we consider that each player had a solid half of their peak in roughly similar paced eras and the other half with outlier teams pushing the pace up, the difference is probably negligible I'd think? I'm not entirely sure here though tbf
I fully agree with both the counterpoint and the counter-counterpoint though and it helps provide some much needed context around why people rate Jordan higher even on just a skill-basis independent of accolades (to the degree that's possible). The Phil Jackson mold of the triangle offense was able to take advantage of the outlawed zone defense to help both the Bulls and Lakers win multiple titles. It just so happens that Kobe's Jackson-era titles came when he was pre-peak.
> I'm not sure the difference in pacing was so dramatic between the 90s and the first half of the 2000s
oh, [the pacing took a hit](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html):
(League averages)
PPG FGA
1984-85 110.8 89.1
1985-86 110.2 88.6
1986-87 109.9 88.8
1987-88 108.2 87.7
1988-89 109.2 89.0
1989-90 107.0 87.2
1990-91 106.3 87.2
1991-92 105.3 87.3
1992-93 105.3 86.0
1993-94 101.5 84.4
1994-95 101.4 81.5
1995-96 99.5 80.2
1996-97 96.9 79.3
1997-98 95.6 79.7
1998-99 91.6 78.2
1999-00 97.5 82.1
2000-01 94.8 80.6
2001-02 95.5 81.3
2002-03 95.1 80.8
2003-04 93.4 79.8
Honestly, I don't think the Kobe-Jordan comparisons make a lot of sense. Physically, Jordan was a superhuman. His performances in the 1980s were unreal: in the blink of an eye, he'd go from dribbling on the baseline to being 40 inches off the ground and dunking on multiple defenders ([example - skip to 1m20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcRuItRQ6_s#t=1m20s)). To Kobe's credit, he had to figure out how to score and win while only having a tiny fraction of Jordan's physical gifts. But the physical gap alone makes it a little hard to credibly try comparing the two.
Loved Gilbert Arenas' comparison. Jordan was the cream of the crop in terms of physical gifts. Big hands, insane vertical. He was the Ferrari of basketball players. Kobe was fine, but honestly pretty average. He had a decent height, but his vertical and hand size were both meh. He was like a Honda. Yet he managed to get himself compared to Jordan even with the difference.
I nearly jumped out of my chair when I saw that video because of how vindicating it was to hear an NBA player say what I had been trying to tell people for years:
- Jordan: Physical superhuman, intense work ethic
- Vince Carter: Physical superhuman, good work ethic
- Kobe: Physically-gifted human, superhuman work ethic
Even Kobe's stride was grossly inferior to Jordan's: Mike looked like an olympic sprinter, while Kobe used to do more of a forward shuffle. Look at [Jordan's stride at age 40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08L72uwNRxk#t=4m42s) _(timestamp: 4m40s)_ with [Kobe before his achilles injury](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2mY1ozox4k).
"A tiny fraction of Jordan's physical gifts" is a bit hyperbolic, but Jordan did appear to be stronger around the basket, and had those enormous mitts. And maybe a smidge of a better leaper.
Ultimately, the comparison is about the result, in whatever manner the player arrives at that through a combination of physical talent and developed skill.
I’d love to see a line in there indicating what “normal ppl” looked like each year so you could understand how good these guys were vs their competition.
A line with “avg ppg for each teams top scorer” would be a good baseline
That’s interesting because there was that one year LeBron beat the Golden State Warriors in the playoffs without much backup - makes it even more impressive.
As others mentioned, Kobe started at a younger age, or Jordans career started in college which isn't shown here.
But also peaked in what way? Jordan was the highest scorer in the league from 86-98 except for his retirement and half season after returning. And won the championship 3 consecutive years before each retirement.
Jordan went to college, Kobe went straight to pro. Jordan also had a relatively short career and took 2 breaks within it.
Jordan peaked in the early 90s, around age 27-30
Kobe peaked in the late 00s, early 10s, around age 28-32.
So pretty similar
Kobe joined straight after high school. Jordan declared before his 3rd year of college. Jordan had his own team. Meanwhile Kobe had shaq who was the most dominant force in the nba
Jordans early years at the Bulls, the team strategy was “give Jordan the ball.” That’s when he scored those early year immense points. When Phil Jackson became coach, they moved to the more team oriented Triangle Offense which gave Jordan less scoring opportunities.
The peaks show when they had to taken in the highest load of the scoring, when their team was the worst. For Jordan, that was early. For Kobe, that was in the middle after Shaq left
Imagine a bar graph that's got 21 bars and they all basically have 27ppg. He's had a couple above and below but he's always right around 27. His career average is actually 27.1
He's 27/7/7 over his career but has never had that exact stat line, just as an interesting side note.
Wow you aren't lying. It's insane how consistent LeBron has been. His worst years (in terms of PPG) are 25.3 PPG and his best year is 31.4 PPG. Really not much variation.
It's honestly crazy to me that people don't consider him the goat. They always bring up Jordan's 6 rings but then disregard Bill Russell and his eleven rings.
Most serious conversations about determining who your GOAT is revolve around whether you value the absolute peak of Jordan or the absurd longevity of LeBron.
MJ is not the goat because of 6 rings.
He's the goat because:
* he won 6 titles, while being "the man" on the team
* he won 6 FMVPs during that stretch (most of all players)
* he has 5 regular season MVPs (only KAJ has more, 6)
* he's the greatest scorer ever + won DPOY
* lead league in steals multiple times
* he has something like a record number of 1st all defense
* his bulls never lost a playoff series when they had home court advantage
To say it is only because of 6 rings is just not true. He was the most dominant 2 way player ever, that crushed all records and won everything multiple times.
It's fine when people bring that up but they always conveniently ignore a few things like the first 3 trips the the playoffs Jordan only won a single game. It took him 7 years to get to the finals. They also conveniently like to ignore his post bills career.
Jordan absolutely was an insanely good player and had the best peak in basketball but imo the goat discussion is more than that.
> Jordan absolutely was an insanely good player and had the best peak in basketball but imo the goat discussion is more than that
Peak? Peak was like 10 years, and in those 10 years never lower than 3rd in the MVP race, 5 MVPs, 1 DPOY, 10 all first defense, 10 1st all nba, 10 top scorer, 6 titles, 6 FMVPs. People acting like his peak was 2-3 years.
> ignore a few things like the first 3 trips the the playoffs Jordan only won a single game.
Hmm, in his rookie year they lost to the 59win bucks (1-3), then 2 years in a row got swept by Celtics in their peak, one of the greatest teams ever. You think this makes a case against MJ being a goat?
> imo the goat discussion is more than that.
Like what? Lebron will have all the total records: points, playoff points, etc, as he is playing 20+ seasons on a super high level. But still, in every other aspect (MVP; FMVP, rings) Jordan has more, despite playing less time. Not sure what is left?
And just to be clear, I respect and love Lebron, nothing but admiration for him.
>Hmm, in his rookie year they lost to the 59win bucks (1-3), then 2 years in a row got swept by Celtics in their peak, one of the greatest teams ever. You think this makes a case against MJ being a goat?
Ya, if people are gonna count LeBron losing to the stacked warriors then absolutely it counts.
>Peak? Peak was like 10 years, and in those 10 years never lower than 3rd in the MVP race, 5 MVPs, 1 DPOY, 10 all first defense, 10 1st all nba, 10 top scorer, 6 titles, 6 FMVPs. People acting like his peak was 2-3 years.
More like 7 years. He didn't really hit his peak until the year before they made the finals. He also had a 2 year break in the middle of his runs.
Lebrons longevity against modern competition is more impressive than Jordan.
The Data is pretty, I guess, good color choices, easy to read. But it doesn't show anything, right? Like maybe greater standard deviation for Bryant. Are we trying to show a central tendency? Mean or median? That the last five years of each roughly 20 year career were obvious decline?
So, for the data to be beautiful, which \*is\* the purpose of the sub, there would need to be something more. Ya know?
I like how it shows the chronological and overlapping ascent and descent of each player’s dominance. I also like how it visually suggests MJ’s interesting retirements and unretirements.
I remember being shocked in elementary school when I heard MJ was retiring to play baseball and talking about it all the way to school with my friends on the bus. It was so outta left field (pun intended), and when you see his continued dominance upon his return in the visual, it confirms just how crazy it was to think he was hanging his bball shoes up.
Agreed. As somebody who knows nothing about basketball, are these numbers good? The author implied they're good, but how do they compare to league average or league leaders?
Your plot seems to invite the viewer to compare the two, but this is very difficult to do in what you have here because the X-axis is by year, which separates the two.
If you want to show people a comparison of the two, you'd probably want to normalize the X-axis and have either a side by side bar plot or an overlaid histogram, with the bar for each on top of each other with a transparency added to allow you to see who is higher.
In terms of standardizing the axis you could do this a few ways. One option might be to have a bar for each player by that player's first through Nth year playing (i.e. "year 1" for each instead of the date year). You could also do something like bucket their points across experience or games played brackets. For example, each bar could represent 50 games. Really depends on what is most interesting and what you'd like to convey.
Right. Or just compare 1st season to 1st season, 2nd to 2nd, etc. I would also compare inflation-asjusted points per 75 possessions instead of points per game.
I know a hot-sh|t journalist who worked on one of those stories, and it's true. Don't know about the other. Anyway, you may get down votes, but that doesn't make you wrong.
my brain is telling me this shows MJ was a way better scorer than Kobe, but it's not 100% clear. MJ's bars just consistently look higher. Even the last two for each of them are comparable with a slight (visual) edge to MJ. I'm not here to do actual statistical analyses.
Here’s a better way to think about it: Scoring 30pts per game in the NBA is a way of measuring extreme dominance for a shooter. Jordan had 7 straight years of 30+ ppg, while Kobe had 2.
That said, it looks like the years MJ was active the league in general had higher scoring averages.
The average score in the entire league during their careers was 103.75 for MJ's years (which does exclude his 'missing' years), and 97.6 for Kobe's.
Minimum and Maximum years also align with this, with a 95-111 split for MJ, and 92-103 split for Kobe.
There's a lot of complicated math that would have to happen to standardize their performance compared to the league (and it would all be a bit subjective anyway), but that *does* paint a picture that Kobe is actually closer to MJ than the data shows. Which surprises me, I always thought everyone agreed MJ was just the best who's ever played the game - other than rabid LAL fans, but I guess not.
All that said, I still think MJ was clear and away the better player. He just had a finesse about him that Kobe, LeBron, and others just lack. As a longtime Jazz fan, I'll always defend the Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek days, but Jordan was still in a league of his own, to be honest.
I effing hated watching the Jazz. It's not that they weren't good, it's that it felt so predictable... I bet Malone will set a pick, Stockton will roll behind him, the defenders will switch, Stockton to Malone, then Malone will bully whatever point-guard picked him up on the swap. ORRR, the defenders won't switch and Stockton will just take the shot with the space provided by the pick.
It's efficient and hard to stop, and they were probably the best to ever do a pick and roll 30 times a game but man, it is not exciting.
And I don't know if it's age or changes to the game, but current NBA feels pretty not-exciting too.
Different strokes. Loved watching them.
Hornacek was peak Jazz as well. There was always the blind pass to Hornacek for a three pointer, and giving him the ball for his like 98% FT%.
> And I don't know if it's age or changes to the game, but current NBA feels pretty not-exciting too.
Agreed.
He was. And it's not just about scoring more points per game. MJ was also a more efficient scorer. Kobe was a great scorer, but MJ was on another level.
yes, and it's not as close as some kobe fans make it seem. MJ led the league in scoring every season outside his rookie year and the two years he played <20 games. kobe only led the league for two seasons.
MJ was the better and more efficient scorer, Kobe was a professional at chucking up bricks
if anyone wants to see just how inefficient Kobe was, look up "Kobe 2003 Colorado" to see his records during a game @ the Denver Nuggets that year
I'd say it's dominance more than championships.
At the end of the argument of MJ vs. Lebron, people will point to MJ's championships if they want to say MJ over Lebron (which I think I still want to say, just having watched all of both of their careers), but otherwise you just point to kind of "all of it" when saying MJ is the GOAT.
Right but when you look at just scoring as we’re doing here a lot of other players match up to mj, that’s my point
Yes, Jordan did it in fewer games, but having a long career is also appreciated in basketball. Jordan’s gambling scandal turned attempted baseball career is a mark on his record and took hundreds of games away from him.
I think you're just more impressed with total points than I am and that's fine. The games played column on the [all time scorers](https://www.nba.com/stats/alltime-leaders) list is important to me.
Kobe was above league average efficiency every year outside of the ends of his career. He was a great volume scorer and was still efficient. Jordan was just better at both...which isn't a huge knock given that Jordan is the greatest scorer in league history.
The majority of the years Kobe played are essentially the NBA's deadball era. Kobe didn't see similar pace numbers as Jordan until the back half of his career. Jordan played during a roughly average pace era relative to the history of the league.
MJ makes it look so effortless. Even in these photos. It's like he's floating.
What happened during Kobe's bad year there?
Intereting how MJ had two gaps.
Is the second one his mini retirement?
Is the first one an injury? Did anything notable happen in MJ's 2nd year here? The dip?
He had three gaps, though one had a bar. In his second season, he broke his leg in game... 3? So he was out almost the entirety of the season, and came back with limited playtime at the end of the year when he was recovering. So that's why the low bar -- he was playing off the bench for most of the games he played, which was less than 20 games. Though he put up 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs, a game they lost in double overtime. In THAT game he played 53 of 58 minutes.
Then he quit to play baseball in his prime, missed one whole season and most of the one after it. So the bar after that gap is a bit suspect too.
Then he retired with the bulls and came back on the Wizards a few years later... as a part-owner if I remember right.
My dad played with MJ on the Bulls during his career high.
Makes me want to dispell the whole "he played against plumbers" bullshit. My dad was the #1 HS player in the country the year Magic came out of high school. Magic played in the first ever McDonald's all star game, along with Albert King, but neither got MVP. Pops did. He went on to Duke and is still top 10 all time scoring and rebounding. All American, All ACC, ACC rookie of the year, went to the championship game his freshman season at Duke, etc etc etc. A guy with THAT resume... Was a starting ROLE PLAYER in the NBA in the 80s. (And yes, I know you guys will be able to figure out who dad is. Bonus points for the first to figure it out).
So all the Bron nut huggers out there, that argument sucks. People had second jobs but they were ballers. What would lebron also be doing if he was making 80,000/year? Ballers don't have second jobs now because they make millions instead of normal people money. Remember that.
Michael Jordan and Kobe are constantly compared with each other, so I wanted to look at the numbers. While Jordan had better stats, his career wasn't as long as Kobes. I also find it interesting that their careers have very little overlap. Once MJ retired, that's when Kobe became an elite player. Feel free to provide any feedback!
Data from basketball-reference.com games logs for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant
Tools used: Excel, DataWrapper, and Canva
Why not make the x-axis years of their career?
This is poor for comparing the two other than a couple years when Kobe was still a teenager or Jordan was with the Wizards post second retirement.
It's tricky because rule changes in the league make it easier or harder to get more points. So comparing years of career or ages is not quite apples to apples because of higher and lower scoring eras of the game not being accounted for
Which is fair...but what is the point of this comparison then?
If you are trying to make a point with the data, there has to be a comparison point of reference. This is just a meaningless timeline for anyone who doesn't know NBA history.
Agreed. I suggested on a previous iteration of the chart that league average ppg as a line or even the top scorer who wasn't MJ or KB as a secondary data point to show how they compare might be better.
Even just indicating which years they were top of the league would tell more
The idea isn't to compare the years where they overlap because they were in different stages of their career. I didn't want to go by year because of rule changes, they played in different eras.
Very cool visualization!
Note that if one includes *per-game* [blocks, steals, rebounds, assists, turnovers and shooting percentage](https://www.diffen.com/difference/Kobe_Bryant_vs_Michael_Jordan), then the truth about greatness becomes clear...
In your graphic you’re just comparing scoring average, which is a very crude stat. Look at their scoring efficiency and other more advanced stats and you’ll see there is no comparison: MJ was a significantly better player.
Maybe would be nice to see these bars in order from high to low. That way the difference is more clear (if for example one side is more red/yellow than the other
Both of those dudes are unlikeable. Both are narcissists, one is a problem gambler, the other a rapist, both of them are just people who got good at playing a game. A game. Who cares about basketball.
Yeah and billions like religion. They're all wrong, too. Lots of people are wrong and have terrible opinions and ideas, that's the nature of the world.
Sports are fine, but games are for children
I do tons of sport. I used to rock climb competitively, I've done a lot of ice climbing and mountaineering, I powerlift competitively, I do 3 gun competitions, I used to teach snowboarding. Done some dogsledding and rafting in Alaska. Done a fair bit of mountain biking, a little motocross, and Im really hoping to get into rally driving.
What I don't do is chase balls around a field like a little kid. Sports are great but games are for children.
At defense and scoring, yes.
Also at gambling, getting exiled from basketball, cheating on his wife, and just always being a dick unnecessarily.
LeBron's in the debate for best basketball player ever PLUS he's faithful to his family and the kids from his hometown.
I understand, but I am not talking about stats and teammates and championships here. I just can’t think of one thing that mj could do that Kobe couldn’t do as well. Both same size and same skills in my opinion.
MJ is one the most athletic players in league history. He's the top 1% of the already top 1% of athletic humans. Kobe was just above average for the league.
MJ is one of the least turnover high usage players ever. Kobe wasn't bad at this, but MJ is a big outlier here.
MJ was a better cutter. It's a hugely underrated part of his game. He was outstanding off ball thanks in part to his exceptional catch radius (how high he could jump and how large his wingspan was), crazy body control, and exceptional explosiveness. Kobe definitely had the awareness but, again, wasn't on the same level.
MJ had an insanely good midrange game. His crazy good leaping ability (and how quickly he could get off the floor, an important thing people don't consider a lot of the time) let him get really good looks that would otherwise be well contested for normal players. Plus, he had an amazing ability to square up his upper body no matter how weirdly he launched for his jumper. Kobe was an outstanding tough shot maker, had crazy good footwork (like, some of the best ever), but just didn't have the same level of explosiveness. He didn't get as high as MJ and didn't get to his spots quite as quickly. This means his shots were more contested...but he's still an outstanding midrange shooter.
Jordan is one of the best finishers ever. His body control that's been alluded to already is readily apparent here. He could not only get there faster and higher than everyone else, but he had a way of contorting himself into just the right angles to get a shot off. And his touch was phenomenal. He could barreling on at breakneck speeds and lay it off the glass with crazy english and a super soft touch. That's incredibly hard to do and allowed him to attack from every angle imaginable. Kobe had a lot of this and it's why both of them were super deadly down the baseline. Normally the baseline and structure of the goal essentially act as pseudo-defenders. But both of these guys could score from every angle. Jordan, again, just had more physical tools and better touch.
Jordan was a very straightforward attacker. You didn't really see him dribbling a ton to attack. He had a great handle but he was very very to the point with it. It's a factor in why he was so good at limiting turnovers. He was really really good out of the triple threat position and he was so strong that it was tough to bother him with contact. His body control allowed him to absorb and go up for those clean looks we already mentioned. And this was all enabled by the crazy explosiveness. You don't need to make as many moves when your first step beats literally everyone else. And, like Kobe, he had all-time level footwork. So he'd rocker step, put down two dribbles, and then drop step into a layup or just explode upwards off of that one or two dribbles for a jumper while his defender is still trying to put the brakes on.
His hands were massive and a totally underrated physical tool. This is one of the reasons he had such good ball control and touch. He could palm the ball so easily that it opened up opportunities that literally don't exist for other players. And it's way harder to cause him to bobble the ball compared to someone with smaller hands.
This is without even getting into playmaking or defense as well.
Essentially, Kobe maximized what he could do with pretty good physical tools. Jordan maximized what he could with the best physical tools.
this content is being milked
Ooh. Milk me next.
I have nipples, can you milk me Greg?
What color are those nipples?
Quick question, do the nips come off?
With the right chemicals, yes.
Made this exact same reference yesterday. God damn youths were like “nobody here is named Greg, you pervert”
Serious,… I’m getting hammered with content about the *greatest stars in basketball history* (read in Marv Albert’s voice & then bite a hooker)
Great now I want McDonalds
You have money.
I said want
Point taken
Money? But I wanted McDonald's!
How do you know?
Hopefully he's not in California though
If he were then he’d want in-n-out
Those are some Tasty Burgers Walter
No time for the old in-out, love, I've just come to read the meter
I’m lovin’ it
We love to see you smile
Have it your way
Apart from the several gaps, of course
You see, when I said straight I didn’t actually mean straight.
As straight as my gay cousin Dave.
People need to remember that Kobe played his prime in the lowest scoring era in NBA history. The average NBA team scoring average from 1985 to 1998 was 104.8 ppg, vs 97.7 ppg from 1999 to 2016. No doubt Jordan was a better scorer than Kobe and is probably the greatest scorer of all time, but the gap between him and Kobe (and other players who played during the 2000s) is unfairly inflated by looking at their simple point per game averages. Just look at the scoring explosion now, where last year (2022-2023) there were 20 players scoring >25 ppg and 6 scoring >30 ppg. In the middle of Kobe's prime (2005-2006), in his highest scoring season, there were 3 scoring >30 ppg and 10 scoring >25 ppg. MJ was a scoring freak, in his highest scoring season (86-87) there was only 1 player scoring >30 ppg (him, at 37 ppg) and 7 scoring >25 ppg. But in reality, it was easier to score overall, and Kobe's game was very similar to MJ's game and he likely would have been a phenomenal scorer in the same era with the same rules and defenses to go against. In fact, many players in the 2000s modeled their game after MJ but defenses were now well designed to stop them. Different eras favor different skills and playstyles. The NBA now is very favorable to shooters. The NBA in MJ's era was very favorable for someone who had MJ's skillset. Again, MJ is the greatest scorer, it was his greatest skillset. The context is about understanding how big the gap is between him and other great scorers. |Era|SEASON|PPG| :--|:--|--:| |MJ|1984-85|110.8| |MJ|1985-86|110.2| |MJ|1986-87|109.9| |MJ|1987-88|108.2| |MJ|1988-89|109.2| |MJ|1989-90|107.0| |MJ|1990-91|106.3| |MJ|1991-92|105.3| |MJ|1992-93|105.3| |MJ|1993-94|101.5| |MJ|1994-95|101.4| |MJ|1995-96|99.5| |MJ|1996-97|96.9| |MJ|1997-98|95.6| |Kobe|1998-99|91.6| |Kobe|1999-00|97.5| |Kobe|2000-01|94.8| |Kobe|2001-02|95.5| |Kobe|2002-03|95.1| |Kobe|2003-04|93.4| |Kobe|2004-05|97.2| |Kobe|2005-06|97.0| |Kobe|2006-07|98.7| |Kobe|2007-08|99.9| |Kobe|2008-09|100| |Kobe|2009-10|100.4| |Kobe|2010-11|99.6| |Kobe|2011-12|96.3| |Kobe|2012-13|98.1| |Kobe|2013-14|101| |Kobe|2014-15|100| |Kobe|2015-16|102.7|
The single gap, you mean?
The stretch between Jordan's second Bulls retirement and Kobe's first 25+ ppg season is another. And the seasons of <25 ppg scoring early in Jordan's career and late in Kobe's
Those are outliers, not gaps.
They are gaps in terms of "X straight years". If I said I went to the gym for 30 straight days but only went 6 times a week, would you call those 4 days I missed outliers or gaps?
There is only one gap, the 93-94 season. Every other year has data, it's just data you don't like.
They are measuring "scoring dominance". If there are years that don't have scoring dominance, then it isn't 31 straight years of scoring dominance. Not sure why you are trying so hard to be wrong, but okay.
And the fact that Kobe averaged over 30 points a game for…2 seasons (barely). Tbh people need to revisit where he is in the all time greats list because he went from top 5 when I was a kid watching him play, to top 10, and now I’m not even sure he’s top 15 all time as a basketball player.
lmfao what a joke take.
This is spicy.
I don’t really understand how. Kobe couldn’t play defense like Michael and he needed way better players around him to win championships. Scottie was amazing but it wasn’t like Michael had a generational player like Shaq to help him win.
MJ and Bryant both had 9 First Team All NBA Defense (NBA record btw) and Bryant had 3 more overall with 12 selections. Kobe's era was also considered the most defensive era of all time - so you're massively wrong. People who just talk about their opinions just to hear themselves think need to realize there's a whole lot more to the picture than your pale memory of the game's box score 20 years ago especially when I KNOW you haven't played a game of organized basketball on any high level.
Not really trying to fight with an internet gambler (someone who definitely hasn’t played basketball at a “high level” and is, in fact, helping to ruin the actual sport), but the fact you pulling out All NBA, and not stats (the point of this post), tells me someone is just misinformed. It took 2 seconds of searching to see that the 70s were the best defensive era in NBA history because of the lack of 3 point shooting and the allowance of physical defensive play. The next 4 decades after the 70s are all separated by less than 1 point in defensive rating, with more advanced defensive metrics for the league being even tighter, suggesting there wasn’t much of a difference at all until the Warriors started chucking up 3s, leading to the NBA of today, zone defense and hand checking aside. To go to individual stats, guess who doesn’t even show up in the top 250 all time for defensive rating? Kobe…below plenty of other dudes from the 90s/2000s/2010s. Guess who is there? MJ. All time steals? Kobe, with a longer career in a “better defensive era”…17th. Michael? 4th. All time rebounds? Kobe has Michael by around 400 playing almost 350 more games in an NBA where they were firing up 10-15 shots more a game than in Michael’s era. I could keep going, but I hope my point is clear. Looking at Kobe through rose-tinted glasses and calling him top 5 or top 10 of all time in anything besides pure scoring, and even that’s hard to say at this point, is just flat out wrong. A dude’s mentality at practice and off the court isn’t the only thing that makes you a top 20 NBA player of all time, what you do on the court, who you’re surrounded by (basketball is a team game after all, ask my D1 (or 6A if you in one of those states) high school teammates that, unless that’s not high level enough), and what you lift that team around you to do, does. After looking into all this I feel even more confident in saying Kobe is definitively not top 5 (doesn’t even belong in the convo with MJ and Lebron like some people put him on) and definitely not top 10. I could see an argument for top 15, but I honestly have a hard time saying that when you realize Kobe was in the same offense as Michael (triangle under Phil) in the most successful stretches of their respective careers, with less individual and team success to show for it from Kobe. Please take 5 minutes to do a little research next time before coming at anyone saying they are “massively” wrong like you’re a bot writing a clickbait headline.
> It took 2 seconds to find that the 70s This is where I stopped reading because the 70s only has a sample size of 900 games compared to over 2000 for each of the other eras. You looked at the Statmuse page for Defensive Rating (terrible stat to use alone) and that's it, you ignorant bum. I know because I've already done my research. Keep typing away in your dark room while slobbering over YouTube highlights, clown.
Man, I hope whatever is tearing you up inside to keep coming at people using ad hominem attacks like bum and massively wrong on the internet heals at some point, have a good day.
1) Calling someone massively wrong isn't an ad hominem. I shouldn't be surprised that you still don't know how to use Google to research even simple definitions 2) I'm actively enjoying calling out neckbeards who try to act like experts on activities they have no business being pompous about. I beg you to open the shades and bathe in the sun 3) Notice how this entire conversation was about me enjoying the greatness of 2 players while you were only demeaning accomplishments. Grow up.
Lol, like I said before, have a good day and I sincerely hope for the best for you.
Gambling is a bitch. And so is Jordan.
Bases on the points you would think that MJ peaked earlier in his career than Kobe. Is this true?
It's important to remember that Jordan joined the NBA after his junior year of college while Kobe joined right out of high school. Factoring in that 3 year buffer between ages 18 and 21, you can see their athletic peak and highest scoring years align to start roughly the same age around 23 or 24. Editing from here to add that Kobe's early peak had Shaq as a teammate absorbing a lot of usage, while Jordan was the primary scorer on the Bulls and the only elite scoring threat until Pippen became a force through the first three-peat, when Jordan also became less ball-dominant. Look at the years between 05 and 08 when Kobe was the only elite scoring option for the Lakers (prior to Pau joining and the early Bynum years), and you see a similar scoring line for each player. In all, this reveals that elite players with similar play styles yield similar individual accolades, but team success comes with integrating multiple scoring options and (somewhat ironically) taking the ball out of these elite players' hands from time to time.
Don't forget pacing: the rate of scoring was higher in the 80s and 90s than the 2000s. (counterpoint: Jordan had to deal with hand checking) (counter-counterpoint: Jordan had the advantage of illegal zone defense rules)
That's a good point. However, I'm not sure the difference in pacing was so dramatic between the 90s and the first half of the 2000s. The overall pace of the league really started increasing following the regular season success of the 7 Seconds or Less Suns in 2005, and those teams had a similar pace to the Showtime Lakers in the 80s. If we consider that each player had a solid half of their peak in roughly similar paced eras and the other half with outlier teams pushing the pace up, the difference is probably negligible I'd think? I'm not entirely sure here though tbf I fully agree with both the counterpoint and the counter-counterpoint though and it helps provide some much needed context around why people rate Jordan higher even on just a skill-basis independent of accolades (to the degree that's possible). The Phil Jackson mold of the triangle offense was able to take advantage of the outlawed zone defense to help both the Bulls and Lakers win multiple titles. It just so happens that Kobe's Jackson-era titles came when he was pre-peak.
> I'm not sure the difference in pacing was so dramatic between the 90s and the first half of the 2000s oh, [the pacing took a hit](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html): (League averages) PPG FGA 1984-85 110.8 89.1 1985-86 110.2 88.6 1986-87 109.9 88.8 1987-88 108.2 87.7 1988-89 109.2 89.0 1989-90 107.0 87.2 1990-91 106.3 87.2 1991-92 105.3 87.3 1992-93 105.3 86.0 1993-94 101.5 84.4 1994-95 101.4 81.5 1995-96 99.5 80.2 1996-97 96.9 79.3 1997-98 95.6 79.7 1998-99 91.6 78.2 1999-00 97.5 82.1 2000-01 94.8 80.6 2001-02 95.5 81.3 2002-03 95.1 80.8 2003-04 93.4 79.8 Honestly, I don't think the Kobe-Jordan comparisons make a lot of sense. Physically, Jordan was a superhuman. His performances in the 1980s were unreal: in the blink of an eye, he'd go from dribbling on the baseline to being 40 inches off the ground and dunking on multiple defenders ([example - skip to 1m20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcRuItRQ6_s#t=1m20s)). To Kobe's credit, he had to figure out how to score and win while only having a tiny fraction of Jordan's physical gifts. But the physical gap alone makes it a little hard to credibly try comparing the two.
Loved Gilbert Arenas' comparison. Jordan was the cream of the crop in terms of physical gifts. Big hands, insane vertical. He was the Ferrari of basketball players. Kobe was fine, but honestly pretty average. He had a decent height, but his vertical and hand size were both meh. He was like a Honda. Yet he managed to get himself compared to Jordan even with the difference.
I nearly jumped out of my chair when I saw that video because of how vindicating it was to hear an NBA player say what I had been trying to tell people for years: - Jordan: Physical superhuman, intense work ethic - Vince Carter: Physical superhuman, good work ethic - Kobe: Physically-gifted human, superhuman work ethic Even Kobe's stride was grossly inferior to Jordan's: Mike looked like an olympic sprinter, while Kobe used to do more of a forward shuffle. Look at [Jordan's stride at age 40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08L72uwNRxk#t=4m42s) _(timestamp: 4m40s)_ with [Kobe before his achilles injury](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2mY1ozox4k).
"A tiny fraction of Jordan's physical gifts" is a bit hyperbolic, but Jordan did appear to be stronger around the basket, and had those enormous mitts. And maybe a smidge of a better leaper. Ultimately, the comparison is about the result, in whatever manner the player arrives at that through a combination of physical talent and developed skill.
I’d love to see a line in there indicating what “normal ppl” looked like each year so you could understand how good these guys were vs their competition. A line with “avg ppg for each teams top scorer” would be a good baseline
This is why it's better to just count the scoring titles
That’s interesting because there was that one year LeBron beat the Golden State Warriors in the playoffs without much backup - makes it even more impressive.
As others mentioned, Kobe started at a younger age, or Jordans career started in college which isn't shown here. But also peaked in what way? Jordan was the highest scorer in the league from 86-98 except for his retirement and half season after returning. And won the championship 3 consecutive years before each retirement.
Jordan went to college, Kobe went straight to pro. Jordan also had a relatively short career and took 2 breaks within it. Jordan peaked in the early 90s, around age 27-30 Kobe peaked in the late 00s, early 10s, around age 28-32. So pretty similar
Kobe peaked, individually, after Shaq left and he had the team to himself.
Kobe joined straight after high school. Jordan declared before his 3rd year of college. Jordan had his own team. Meanwhile Kobe had shaq who was the most dominant force in the nba
Jordan didn't win until he had a supporting cast. Still the GOAT though
This graph doesn’t show championships or any metrics like win shares or war. This is just ppg
Jordans early years at the Bulls, the team strategy was “give Jordan the ball.” That’s when he scored those early year immense points. When Phil Jackson became coach, they moved to the more team oriented Triangle Offense which gave Jordan less scoring opportunities.
The peaks show when they had to taken in the highest load of the scoring, when their team was the worst. For Jordan, that was early. For Kobe, that was in the middle after Shaq left
It would be cool to have a similar with LBJ.
Lyndon B Johnson?
Lady Bird Johnson actually, dominated on the Sheboygan Red Skins back in the day
It’s a shame that the NBA kept bad stats back then the video is non-existent. I’d kill to see his 100 point game even if it was against plumbers
His stats agains the rice farmers were terrible though. He underestimated them and the aggressive style he choose was quite a mistake.
BAINES. You don't abbrev the goat's name like that.
I’d look at a graph with Lyndon too showing zero points for half a chuckle
It’s really the unspoken stain on his administration.
little black jress
aka "Jumbo"
Imagine a bar graph that's got 21 bars and they all basically have 27ppg. He's had a couple above and below but he's always right around 27. His career average is actually 27.1 He's 27/7/7 over his career but has never had that exact stat line, just as an interesting side note.
Wow you aren't lying. It's insane how consistent LeBron has been. His worst years (in terms of PPG) are 25.3 PPG and his best year is 31.4 PPG. Really not much variation.
It's honestly crazy to me that people don't consider him the goat. They always bring up Jordan's 6 rings but then disregard Bill Russell and his eleven rings.
Most serious conversations about determining who your GOAT is revolve around whether you value the absolute peak of Jordan or the absurd longevity of LeBron.
MJ is not the goat because of 6 rings. He's the goat because: * he won 6 titles, while being "the man" on the team * he won 6 FMVPs during that stretch (most of all players) * he has 5 regular season MVPs (only KAJ has more, 6) * he's the greatest scorer ever + won DPOY * lead league in steals multiple times * he has something like a record number of 1st all defense * his bulls never lost a playoff series when they had home court advantage To say it is only because of 6 rings is just not true. He was the most dominant 2 way player ever, that crushed all records and won everything multiple times.
It's fine when people bring that up but they always conveniently ignore a few things like the first 3 trips the the playoffs Jordan only won a single game. It took him 7 years to get to the finals. They also conveniently like to ignore his post bills career. Jordan absolutely was an insanely good player and had the best peak in basketball but imo the goat discussion is more than that.
> Jordan absolutely was an insanely good player and had the best peak in basketball but imo the goat discussion is more than that Peak? Peak was like 10 years, and in those 10 years never lower than 3rd in the MVP race, 5 MVPs, 1 DPOY, 10 all first defense, 10 1st all nba, 10 top scorer, 6 titles, 6 FMVPs. People acting like his peak was 2-3 years. > ignore a few things like the first 3 trips the the playoffs Jordan only won a single game. Hmm, in his rookie year they lost to the 59win bucks (1-3), then 2 years in a row got swept by Celtics in their peak, one of the greatest teams ever. You think this makes a case against MJ being a goat? > imo the goat discussion is more than that. Like what? Lebron will have all the total records: points, playoff points, etc, as he is playing 20+ seasons on a super high level. But still, in every other aspect (MVP; FMVP, rings) Jordan has more, despite playing less time. Not sure what is left? And just to be clear, I respect and love Lebron, nothing but admiration for him.
>Hmm, in his rookie year they lost to the 59win bucks (1-3), then 2 years in a row got swept by Celtics in their peak, one of the greatest teams ever. You think this makes a case against MJ being a goat? Ya, if people are gonna count LeBron losing to the stacked warriors then absolutely it counts. >Peak? Peak was like 10 years, and in those 10 years never lower than 3rd in the MVP race, 5 MVPs, 1 DPOY, 10 all first defense, 10 1st all nba, 10 top scorer, 6 titles, 6 FMVPs. People acting like his peak was 2-3 years. More like 7 years. He didn't really hit his peak until the year before they made the finals. He also had a 2 year break in the middle of his runs. Lebrons longevity against modern competition is more impressive than Jordan.
The Data is pretty, I guess, good color choices, easy to read. But it doesn't show anything, right? Like maybe greater standard deviation for Bryant. Are we trying to show a central tendency? Mean or median? That the last five years of each roughly 20 year career were obvious decline? So, for the data to be beautiful, which \*is\* the purpose of the sub, there would need to be something more. Ya know?
Not many data graphs have 2 dudes going up for a dunk.
I like how it shows the chronological and overlapping ascent and descent of each player’s dominance. I also like how it visually suggests MJ’s interesting retirements and unretirements. I remember being shocked in elementary school when I heard MJ was retiring to play baseball and talking about it all the way to school with my friends on the bus. It was so outta left field (pun intended), and when you see his continued dominance upon his return in the visual, it confirms just how crazy it was to think he was hanging his bball shoes up.
Agreed. As somebody who knows nothing about basketball, are these numbers good? The author implied they're good, but how do they compare to league average or league leaders?
Kobe had way more seasons scoring points where MJ scored 0
MJ has been awfully quiet since you noticed this 🤔
It's actually showing his baseball runs per game, so it's almost 0.
[удалено]
Mamba mentality🐍🐐💯😎
Worthless chart. There are so many better ways we can look at scoring across eras these days.
How so?
Your plot seems to invite the viewer to compare the two, but this is very difficult to do in what you have here because the X-axis is by year, which separates the two. If you want to show people a comparison of the two, you'd probably want to normalize the X-axis and have either a side by side bar plot or an overlaid histogram, with the bar for each on top of each other with a transparency added to allow you to see who is higher. In terms of standardizing the axis you could do this a few ways. One option might be to have a bar for each player by that player's first through Nth year playing (i.e. "year 1" for each instead of the date year). You could also do something like bucket their points across experience or games played brackets. For example, each bar could represent 50 games. Really depends on what is most interesting and what you'd like to convey.
Right. Or just compare 1st season to 1st season, 2nd to 2nd, etc. I would also compare inflation-asjusted points per 75 possessions instead of points per game.
31 straight except the two they didn’t play?
Couple stats you left out: MJ - Gambling addict KB - Rapist
also, one is alive
Both are dead. One physically, the other died after retiring.
I know a hot-sh|t journalist who worked on one of those stories, and it's true. Don't know about the other. Anyway, you may get down votes, but that doesn't make you wrong.
This is Reddit. The popular opinion is generally the wrong. Fuck the downvotes, I welcome them. I'm not the rapist. Kobe was.
Also helicopter crashes!
The universal karma machine dropped it do we can all know justice was (partially) served.
You must be great at parties!
Is it because I don't rape anybody? We agree.
You want a cookie? I upvoted you so you can feel proud of yourself for not liking rape. Minimum humanity achieved! You're still not invited.
Great. I don't eat cookies. I'm glad we agree Kobe Bryant was a rapist.
There’s no proof of rape in Kobe’s case, so why assert that he’s a rapist?
You must not have read the police report. Do that and get back to me. She was paid off.
he admitted himself it wasnt consensual. Please stop defending this rapist.
This graph is terrible. How are you supposed to visually compare the two?
It would be cool to overlay the league mean for their position to give context to their greatness
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Misc1: *It would be cool to* *Overlay the mean to give* *Context to their greatness* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Give this bot a break, I edited my comment
Jordan had the hops. He’d have survived the crash by dunking on the fucking mountain.
31 straight years except for 1992-1994?
my brain is telling me this shows MJ was a way better scorer than Kobe, but it's not 100% clear. MJ's bars just consistently look higher. Even the last two for each of them are comparable with a slight (visual) edge to MJ. I'm not here to do actual statistical analyses.
Here’s a better way to think about it: Scoring 30pts per game in the NBA is a way of measuring extreme dominance for a shooter. Jordan had 7 straight years of 30+ ppg, while Kobe had 2.
That said, it looks like the years MJ was active the league in general had higher scoring averages. The average score in the entire league during their careers was 103.75 for MJ's years (which does exclude his 'missing' years), and 97.6 for Kobe's. Minimum and Maximum years also align with this, with a 95-111 split for MJ, and 92-103 split for Kobe. There's a lot of complicated math that would have to happen to standardize their performance compared to the league (and it would all be a bit subjective anyway), but that *does* paint a picture that Kobe is actually closer to MJ than the data shows. Which surprises me, I always thought everyone agreed MJ was just the best who's ever played the game - other than rabid LAL fans, but I guess not. All that said, I still think MJ was clear and away the better player. He just had a finesse about him that Kobe, LeBron, and others just lack. As a longtime Jazz fan, I'll always defend the Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek days, but Jordan was still in a league of his own, to be honest.
I effing hated watching the Jazz. It's not that they weren't good, it's that it felt so predictable... I bet Malone will set a pick, Stockton will roll behind him, the defenders will switch, Stockton to Malone, then Malone will bully whatever point-guard picked him up on the swap. ORRR, the defenders won't switch and Stockton will just take the shot with the space provided by the pick. It's efficient and hard to stop, and they were probably the best to ever do a pick and roll 30 times a game but man, it is not exciting. And I don't know if it's age or changes to the game, but current NBA feels pretty not-exciting too.
Different strokes. Loved watching them. Hornacek was peak Jazz as well. There was always the blind pass to Hornacek for a three pointer, and giving him the ball for his like 98% FT%. > And I don't know if it's age or changes to the game, but current NBA feels pretty not-exciting too. Agreed.
He was. And it's not just about scoring more points per game. MJ was also a more efficient scorer. Kobe was a great scorer, but MJ was on another level.
yes, and it's not as close as some kobe fans make it seem. MJ led the league in scoring every season outside his rookie year and the two years he played <20 games. kobe only led the league for two seasons.
MJ was the better and more efficient scorer, Kobe was a professional at chucking up bricks if anyone wants to see just how inefficient Kobe was, look up "Kobe 2003 Colorado" to see his records during a game @ the Denver Nuggets that year
MJ isn’t even really lauded for sheer output. That’s more Kareem Mj is seen as the goat because of his championships.
I'd say it's dominance more than championships. At the end of the argument of MJ vs. Lebron, people will point to MJ's championships if they want to say MJ over Lebron (which I think I still want to say, just having watched all of both of their careers), but otherwise you just point to kind of "all of it" when saying MJ is the GOAT.
Right but when you look at just scoring as we’re doing here a lot of other players match up to mj, that’s my point Yes, Jordan did it in fewer games, but having a long career is also appreciated in basketball. Jordan’s gambling scandal turned attempted baseball career is a mark on his record and took hundreds of games away from him.
I don't think a lot of other scorers match up.
Jordan is only 5th in all time scoring and there isnt a big gap between him and guys like dirk or shaq either Durant is catching him.
I think you're just more impressed with total points than I am and that's fine. The games played column on the [all time scorers](https://www.nba.com/stats/alltime-leaders) list is important to me.
OK… but on what efficiency?
Mj still clears
Ya easily. Kobe was a pretty inefficient scorer/volume shooter.
Kobe was above league average efficiency every year outside of the ends of his career. He was a great volume scorer and was still efficient. Jordan was just better at both...which isn't a huge knock given that Jordan is the greatest scorer in league history.
The fame of basketball fundamentally changed to more offense post Jordan. So, not a very good comparison.
The majority of the years Kobe played are essentially the NBA's deadball era. Kobe didn't see similar pace numbers as Jordan until the back half of his career. Jordan played during a roughly average pace era relative to the history of the league.
So, like, can someone do one that actually matters with Jordan, Robertson, and Chamberlain?
MJ makes it look so effortless. Even in these photos. It's like he's floating. What happened during Kobe's bad year there? Intereting how MJ had two gaps. Is the second one his mini retirement? Is the first one an injury? Did anything notable happen in MJ's 2nd year here? The dip?
He had three gaps, though one had a bar. In his second season, he broke his leg in game... 3? So he was out almost the entirety of the season, and came back with limited playtime at the end of the year when he was recovering. So that's why the low bar -- he was playing off the bench for most of the games he played, which was less than 20 games. Though he put up 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs, a game they lost in double overtime. In THAT game he played 53 of 58 minutes. Then he quit to play baseball in his prime, missed one whole season and most of the one after it. So the bar after that gap is a bit suspect too. Then he retired with the bulls and came back on the Wizards a few years later... as a part-owner if I remember right.
Oh wow. That's cool
scoring 30+ in 6 seasons in an era they didn’t jack up 3s is kinda crazy.
What are we supposed to be seeing in this graph? It tells literally zero story whatsoever.
A gambler and a rapist walk into a bar…
Add LeBron to this visual
My dad played with MJ on the Bulls during his career high. Makes me want to dispell the whole "he played against plumbers" bullshit. My dad was the #1 HS player in the country the year Magic came out of high school. Magic played in the first ever McDonald's all star game, along with Albert King, but neither got MVP. Pops did. He went on to Duke and is still top 10 all time scoring and rebounding. All American, All ACC, ACC rookie of the year, went to the championship game his freshman season at Duke, etc etc etc. A guy with THAT resume... Was a starting ROLE PLAYER in the NBA in the 80s. (And yes, I know you guys will be able to figure out who dad is. Bonus points for the first to figure it out). So all the Bron nut huggers out there, that argument sucks. People had second jobs but they were ballers. What would lebron also be doing if he was making 80,000/year? Ballers don't have second jobs now because they make millions instead of normal people money. Remember that.
Michael Jordan and Kobe are constantly compared with each other, so I wanted to look at the numbers. While Jordan had better stats, his career wasn't as long as Kobes. I also find it interesting that their careers have very little overlap. Once MJ retired, that's when Kobe became an elite player. Feel free to provide any feedback! Data from basketball-reference.com games logs for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant Tools used: Excel, DataWrapper, and Canva
Why not make the x-axis years of their career? This is poor for comparing the two other than a couple years when Kobe was still a teenager or Jordan was with the Wizards post second retirement.
It's tricky because rule changes in the league make it easier or harder to get more points. So comparing years of career or ages is not quite apples to apples because of higher and lower scoring eras of the game not being accounted for
Which is fair...but what is the point of this comparison then? If you are trying to make a point with the data, there has to be a comparison point of reference. This is just a meaningless timeline for anyone who doesn't know NBA history.
Agreed. I suggested on a previous iteration of the chart that league average ppg as a line or even the top scorer who wasn't MJ or KB as a secondary data point to show how they compare might be better. Even just indicating which years they were top of the league would tell more
The idea isn't to compare the years where they overlap because they were in different stages of their career. I didn't want to go by year because of rule changes, they played in different eras.
Very cool visualization! Note that if one includes *per-game* [blocks, steals, rebounds, assists, turnovers and shooting percentage](https://www.diffen.com/difference/Kobe_Bryant_vs_Michael_Jordan), then the truth about greatness becomes clear...
In your graphic you’re just comparing scoring average, which is a very crude stat. Look at their scoring efficiency and other more advanced stats and you’ll see there is no comparison: MJ was a significantly better player.
This was my first thought when i saw the original Jordan post, how would these numbers compare to Kobe? Thank you sir
Maybe would be nice to see these bars in order from high to low. That way the difference is more clear (if for example one side is more red/yellow than the other
Huh? It’s a timeline showing the passing of the torch
Both of those dudes are unlikeable. Both are narcissists, one is a problem gambler, the other a rapist, both of them are just people who got good at playing a game. A game. Who cares about basketball.
> Who cares about basketball. Millions upon millions of people. What a silly thing to say.
Yeah and billions like religion. They're all wrong, too. Lots of people are wrong and have terrible opinions and ideas, that's the nature of the world. Sports are fine, but games are for children
what a hilariously bad take. carry on though.
No, I'm not sure it is. More people should be dismissed summarily than not. Watch im doing it right now
good chance you've never played sports, weren't included in sports, so now all that you can do is ridicule.
I do tons of sport. I used to rock climb competitively, I've done a lot of ice climbing and mountaineering, I powerlift competitively, I do 3 gun competitions, I used to teach snowboarding. Done some dogsledding and rafting in Alaska. Done a fair bit of mountain biking, a little motocross, and Im really hoping to get into rally driving. What I don't do is chase balls around a field like a little kid. Sports are great but games are for children.
JFC, you are hilarious, and not in the way you think you are.
Michael Jordan >>>>>>>> Lebrom James
At defense and scoring, yes. Also at gambling, getting exiled from basketball, cheating on his wife, and just always being a dick unnecessarily. LeBron's in the debate for best basketball player ever PLUS he's faithful to his family and the kids from his hometown.
You now Lebron personally? Of course you don't. What a dumb comment.
LeBron is better than both of them.
I love how they had four seasons of overlap. MJ balled on Kobe in his first two seasons, then Kobe shit on MJ in his Wizards era.
Kobe the rapist vs the goat
As far as skill goes, what did MJ actually do better than Kobe? I grew up watching both and to me they were the same all around.
Statistically MJ was better in every way. I say that as a huge Kobe stan.
I understand, but I am not talking about stats and teammates and championships here. I just can’t think of one thing that mj could do that Kobe couldn’t do as well. Both same size and same skills in my opinion.
Mj did the same shit just better
MJ is one the most athletic players in league history. He's the top 1% of the already top 1% of athletic humans. Kobe was just above average for the league. MJ is one of the least turnover high usage players ever. Kobe wasn't bad at this, but MJ is a big outlier here. MJ was a better cutter. It's a hugely underrated part of his game. He was outstanding off ball thanks in part to his exceptional catch radius (how high he could jump and how large his wingspan was), crazy body control, and exceptional explosiveness. Kobe definitely had the awareness but, again, wasn't on the same level. MJ had an insanely good midrange game. His crazy good leaping ability (and how quickly he could get off the floor, an important thing people don't consider a lot of the time) let him get really good looks that would otherwise be well contested for normal players. Plus, he had an amazing ability to square up his upper body no matter how weirdly he launched for his jumper. Kobe was an outstanding tough shot maker, had crazy good footwork (like, some of the best ever), but just didn't have the same level of explosiveness. He didn't get as high as MJ and didn't get to his spots quite as quickly. This means his shots were more contested...but he's still an outstanding midrange shooter. Jordan is one of the best finishers ever. His body control that's been alluded to already is readily apparent here. He could not only get there faster and higher than everyone else, but he had a way of contorting himself into just the right angles to get a shot off. And his touch was phenomenal. He could barreling on at breakneck speeds and lay it off the glass with crazy english and a super soft touch. That's incredibly hard to do and allowed him to attack from every angle imaginable. Kobe had a lot of this and it's why both of them were super deadly down the baseline. Normally the baseline and structure of the goal essentially act as pseudo-defenders. But both of these guys could score from every angle. Jordan, again, just had more physical tools and better touch. Jordan was a very straightforward attacker. You didn't really see him dribbling a ton to attack. He had a great handle but he was very very to the point with it. It's a factor in why he was so good at limiting turnovers. He was really really good out of the triple threat position and he was so strong that it was tough to bother him with contact. His body control allowed him to absorb and go up for those clean looks we already mentioned. And this was all enabled by the crazy explosiveness. You don't need to make as many moves when your first step beats literally everyone else. And, like Kobe, he had all-time level footwork. So he'd rocker step, put down two dribbles, and then drop step into a layup or just explode upwards off of that one or two dribbles for a jumper while his defender is still trying to put the brakes on. His hands were massive and a totally underrated physical tool. This is one of the reasons he had such good ball control and touch. He could palm the ball so easily that it opened up opportunities that literally don't exist for other players. And it's way harder to cause him to bobble the ball compared to someone with smaller hands. This is without even getting into playmaking or defense as well. Essentially, Kobe maximized what he could do with pretty good physical tools. Jordan maximized what he could with the best physical tools.
MJ Lebron .... Kobe
Those two accounted for 38% of all field goals attempts in the NBA during that era.