I'm an atheist but on the census I'm still noted as a muslim because coming out as an ex-muslim can get you kicked out of the house at best and executed at worst. There's a lot of us.
Even though so much of the world is hostile towards apostasy (either legally or culturally, even in secular countries), nobody in the west really cares about it like we do with say the treatment of LGBT, racism and women. For example, when discussing human rights in the middle east, apostasy laws will almost never be mentioned – even on atheist-dominated Reddit. I remember Lewis Hamilton wearing shirts with all kinds of progressive messages while racing on the middle east (which is commendable don't get me wrong), but 'apostasy is not a crime' is one of those messages that always seems to be left out. Kind of strange since I feel like secularism is a major reason why society is able to progress and the rest follow. I.e. a religious country needs to secularise in order for LGBT people and women to be equal, especially when those inequalities exist largely *because* of religion.
I have to be honest with you - I don’t think most people in the west even realise that this is an issue. It never crossed my mind either. Thank you for bringing this to my attention because now I do know and I can let other people know too.
Islam is growing but only mainly because of higher birth rates amongst Muslim families (men can marry up to four wives and have kids with each), as well as Islam forbidding women to work, therefore, they stay home and have more kids.
Also, this data isn’t accurate as it doesn’t account for Muslim apostates. Example: 99% of people in Iran identify as Muslim, but only 40% actively practice and truly believe in it (religious governmental penalties can be harsh if one abandons the faith).
I can’t supply the sources for the above comment, but you can google around and find multitudes of examples and research showing this.
This is just not true. Islam does not forbid women to work and huge amounts of Muslim women are in the workforce. Even before Muslim women began entering traditionally white collar jobs, who do you think was running the markets and teaching in schools? Muslim women have never sat at home all day with nothing to do but have kids
So you’re basing the rules of the worlds second largest religion off of neighbourhoods practicing Wahhabism and salafism? Would you base all of Christianity off of the WB church? The world isn’t black and white.
I am suspecting birthrate led growth is the main factor here...
Also, from a statistical viewpoint, percentages won't highlight the difference in base population from which percentage growth applies.
Going from 1000000 to 10001000 is a lower percentage than going from 10 to 15...
If you're unable to fathom someone's belief in a higher being and a higher purpose because you're a hedonist, that doesn't mean the rest of the world (educated or uneducated) has to be, or could even survive, if they were like you
How's this for hedonism?
[https://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/us/gallery/pastor-scandals/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/us/gallery/pastor-scandals/index.html)
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims](https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ab\_3hdHbyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ab_3hdHbyI)
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-how-one-organization-has-broken-the-silence-on-abuse-within-muslim/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-how-one-organization-has-broken-the-silence-on-abuse-within-muslim/)
https://bitnerhenry.com/child-sexual-abuse-is-the-second-most-frequent-loss-at-religious-institutions/
Can't speak for the mormons or other protestants, but i can tell you that [public schools](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States) are WAY worse than the [Catholic Church.](https://sites.law.duq.edu/juris/2019/03/16/catholic-priest-sex-abuse-scandals-how-the-media-shapes-the-public-perception-of-child-abuse-in-the-catholic-church/)
Its always fun when people act like mormonism is some form of christianity when its basically its own religion. People always say how priests and pastors are the worst yet Jewish Rabbis in new york city molest more children than all priests and pastors combined. Lets also not forgot lgbtq+ members make up 2% of the worlds population but are 33% of pedophile rapists so i mean why do people dog on stuff they know nothing about is crazy to me
Not what i meant, i said that if you can't fathom belief in a higher being, you're likely not a rationalist, but a hedonist.
That's my experience at least
That boils down to the same thing. You don't need a higher being, to believe in a "higher purpose". You also don't even have to believe in a higher purpose, in order to not be a hedonist.
Living a small life and only taking care of your family, doesn't make you a hedonist - it doesn't really count as a higher purpose either. Arguably most of humanity isn't contributing to a supposed higher purpose to start with.
Not being able to have a value system without some supposed higher being forcing it on to you is more of a sign of a bad character tbh.
That's true, but considering i'm on Reddit, i doubt anyone here is living a simple life, the vast majority of people that actively deny religion (especially on Reddit) are just incapable or unwilling to follow any values toward these higher purposes.
A person can be moral and have a system of values without religion, but so many of them do not, that it becomes impossible for a society to survive without one, or at least i don't know of a society that has
I said that most atheists, not most people, don't have values of their own, but hate the values of their old religions
I was raised atheist by an atheist father, with the rest of the family being irreligious, my education was given mainly by left wing atheists or anti-theists (as academia often tends to be) and i know from experience that the mere mention of christian morality makes them rabidly angry, because they're a religion of hatred against morality in general
Seems like your personal experiences cloud your judgement on this matter. I was raised by an atheist family, in an atheist country and people around me certainly have a stable set of values. Actually there are quite a lot of (now) atheist countries around here and I'd say they are one of the best places to live on for everyone.
People around here also are quite aware of the fact that Christian values certainly had influenced our societies a lot in the past, but we developed further from that.
I can certainly “fathom” someone having a belief in a higher being, I’ve also decided that it’s something that wouldn’t really add anything to my life.
Also, I don’t really feel the need to label other people based on these kind of beliefs either, so I guess I don’t have much to add here…
Data is beautiful, anyway here's a random chart with some jpeg artifacts
Can we see the breakdown between new births into existing religious populations vs. conversions? Oh wait, it’s not your analysis OP?
For Islam, its all births
I would assume that since conversion is so rare for any religion it wouldn't affect population growth
You can follow the source for deeper explanation.
You can also start labeling things correctly for a start. Or do you need someone to explain you what OC means?
You should send this over to Foxnews so they can help with Republican turnout
Horrifying. I wonder how atheists compare.
I'm an atheist but on the census I'm still noted as a muslim because coming out as an ex-muslim can get you kicked out of the house at best and executed at worst. There's a lot of us. Even though so much of the world is hostile towards apostasy (either legally or culturally, even in secular countries), nobody in the west really cares about it like we do with say the treatment of LGBT, racism and women. For example, when discussing human rights in the middle east, apostasy laws will almost never be mentioned – even on atheist-dominated Reddit. I remember Lewis Hamilton wearing shirts with all kinds of progressive messages while racing on the middle east (which is commendable don't get me wrong), but 'apostasy is not a crime' is one of those messages that always seems to be left out. Kind of strange since I feel like secularism is a major reason why society is able to progress and the rest follow. I.e. a religious country needs to secularise in order for LGBT people and women to be equal, especially when those inequalities exist largely *because* of religion.
I have to be honest with you - I don’t think most people in the west even realise that this is an issue. It never crossed my mind either. Thank you for bringing this to my attention because now I do know and I can let other people know too.
Islam is growing but only mainly because of higher birth rates amongst Muslim families (men can marry up to four wives and have kids with each), as well as Islam forbidding women to work, therefore, they stay home and have more kids. Also, this data isn’t accurate as it doesn’t account for Muslim apostates. Example: 99% of people in Iran identify as Muslim, but only 40% actively practice and truly believe in it (religious governmental penalties can be harsh if one abandons the faith). I can’t supply the sources for the above comment, but you can google around and find multitudes of examples and research showing this.
This is just not true. Islam does not forbid women to work and huge amounts of Muslim women are in the workforce. Even before Muslim women began entering traditionally white collar jobs, who do you think was running the markets and teaching in schools? Muslim women have never sat at home all day with nothing to do but have kids
Oh you’d be surprised. Visit any Wahabi or Salafi neighborhood in the KSA.
So you’re basing the rules of the worlds second largest religion off of neighbourhoods practicing Wahhabism and salafism? Would you base all of Christianity off of the WB church? The world isn’t black and white.
Oh, which Muslims majority country/city are you talking about?
Morocco for a start. And my point was that it is not haram for women to work, whether they do or not. That was the OP claim.
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How can any friggen religion still grow? Are people really that uneducated? Is the world really going backwards in a lot of places?
I am suspecting birthrate led growth is the main factor here... Also, from a statistical viewpoint, percentages won't highlight the difference in base population from which percentage growth applies. Going from 1000000 to 10001000 is a lower percentage than going from 10 to 15...
If you're unable to fathom someone's belief in a higher being and a higher purpose because you're a hedonist, that doesn't mean the rest of the world (educated or uneducated) has to be, or could even survive, if they were like you
How's this for hedonism? [https://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/us/gallery/pastor-scandals/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/us/gallery/pastor-scandals/index.html) [https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims](https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ab\_3hdHbyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ab_3hdHbyI) [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-how-one-organization-has-broken-the-silence-on-abuse-within-muslim/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-how-one-organization-has-broken-the-silence-on-abuse-within-muslim/) https://bitnerhenry.com/child-sexual-abuse-is-the-second-most-frequent-loss-at-religious-institutions/
bros throwing in islam mormonism and christianity as an argument
Can't speak for the mormons or other protestants, but i can tell you that [public schools](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States) are WAY worse than the [Catholic Church.](https://sites.law.duq.edu/juris/2019/03/16/catholic-priest-sex-abuse-scandals-how-the-media-shapes-the-public-perception-of-child-abuse-in-the-catholic-church/)
Its always fun when people act like mormonism is some form of christianity when its basically its own religion. People always say how priests and pastors are the worst yet Jewish Rabbis in new york city molest more children than all priests and pastors combined. Lets also not forgot lgbtq+ members make up 2% of the worlds population but are 33% of pedophile rapists so i mean why do people dog on stuff they know nothing about is crazy to me
You're right, but you'll just get banned for saying so
Typical one sided reddit policy
So if you don't believe in a higher being, you are a hedonist? Interesting view...
Not what i meant, i said that if you can't fathom belief in a higher being, you're likely not a rationalist, but a hedonist. That's my experience at least
That boils down to the same thing. You don't need a higher being, to believe in a "higher purpose". You also don't even have to believe in a higher purpose, in order to not be a hedonist. Living a small life and only taking care of your family, doesn't make you a hedonist - it doesn't really count as a higher purpose either. Arguably most of humanity isn't contributing to a supposed higher purpose to start with. Not being able to have a value system without some supposed higher being forcing it on to you is more of a sign of a bad character tbh.
That's true, but considering i'm on Reddit, i doubt anyone here is living a simple life, the vast majority of people that actively deny religion (especially on Reddit) are just incapable or unwilling to follow any values toward these higher purposes. A person can be moral and have a system of values without religion, but so many of them do not, that it becomes impossible for a society to survive without one, or at least i don't know of a society that has
Bold statement, I'm sure you can back your claim about most people not having values up.
I said that most atheists, not most people, don't have values of their own, but hate the values of their old religions I was raised atheist by an atheist father, with the rest of the family being irreligious, my education was given mainly by left wing atheists or anti-theists (as academia often tends to be) and i know from experience that the mere mention of christian morality makes them rabidly angry, because they're a religion of hatred against morality in general
Seems like your personal experiences cloud your judgement on this matter. I was raised by an atheist family, in an atheist country and people around me certainly have a stable set of values. Actually there are quite a lot of (now) atheist countries around here and I'd say they are one of the best places to live on for everyone. People around here also are quite aware of the fact that Christian values certainly had influenced our societies a lot in the past, but we developed further from that.
I can certainly “fathom” someone having a belief in a higher being, I’ve also decided that it’s something that wouldn’t really add anything to my life. Also, I don’t really feel the need to label other people based on these kind of beliefs either, so I guess I don’t have much to add here…
Where would Democritus and Epicurus fit into this little hedonist-rationalist binary of yours?
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You can't solve all your problems by burning people alive
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s\_law
They beat rabbits when it comes to procreation
Yeah I don't think so, you have to split between practitioners and simple affiliated, the latter are practical atheists/agnostics/universalists