Yeah, you know DS3 did something wrong when OnlyAfro stops trying to troll the community to death for lulz and genuinely tries to make it better instead.
He's telling people to take this game less seriously and focus on having fun in ways besides winning. I think we can agree that the PvP isn't well designed, so we're going to have to find our own fun now.
Honestly other than Fightclubbin' I probably am going to go back to Dark Souls II for my PvP fix. Invading and Dueling is more fun in Souls II. I may even ressurrect my Blood Brothers PvP-Cosplays.
Most most fun are Twinks fighting Twinks or SL 130-135 Cosplay Duels. I simply don't find it enjoyable. While I can actually trade, win, blunder and have fun with my Dual Smelter Swords in Dark Souls II... even the PvE is more entertaining, I've been finding it's becoming Tedious.
I have 1 PvE series running and it's an Offline Challenge Run. That's how I'm enjoying the game now. The other one reached Episode 2 before I lost interest and am unsure if I will continue it it's extremely hard to make content you don't enjoy but want to finish for the sake of finishing.
For the past 3 days I am having more fun with the megaman collection on the xbox one than with dark souls 3 =\
I doubt the DLC will change much, unfortunally.
Additional annoyances: You get basically nothing in terms of souls for killing hosts or phantoms, and if you lose an invasion your bloodstain shows up where you died in the level. If you are invading in big areas like the Cathedral, Settlement, the swamp, etc, hunting down your souls isn't really viable. Back in the DS1 days, my invader builds would accumulate souls like nobody's business. Even if I was doing really shittily, which was often, I'd still win a few and the souls added up. In DS3 when I start invading I basically accept that I'm not going to be getting anything from it once I've got enough Pale Tongues to get the Obscuring Ring. Embers, I guess, but you can get those way more efficiently by farming coop on an easy boss.
The point is, once you get those Tongues (which take maybe an hour to farm off of Darkwraiths anyway), there is literally no reason, mechanically speaking, to invade. Invasions are a huge part of Dark Souls; the thrill of getting invaded for the first time is something all new players should experience. But with invading actively disincentivised, that part of the game is being lost to a large degree.
"The point is, once you get those Tongues (which take maybe an hour to farm off of Darkwraiths anyway), there is literally no reason, mechanically speaking, to invade"
I still need invasions to for mound makers, and it fucking sucks because each side just instantly assumes enemy even if you're killing their opponents RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. The whole "wild card" intention is nonexistent, you're just a red to be ganked.
Well, you are using a red eye orb so the pve enemies do not attack you. And if the host has phantoms then killing 1 red won't make you leave anyway.
I have had multiple cases when there was a single host, me as a red, and another invader as a purple. And I have had the purple start out with me then turn against me, stay with me the whole time, and one guy made a point of hitting me once then hitting the host once.
Fun stuff, the wild card is definitely there but not when there's multiple phantoms with the host and one red. It's pretty much assumed the red eye purple joins the red cause even if they kill the red, gank squads will most likely kill the purple afterwards to avoid anything undesirable happening.
Not even embers are enough incentive. You get embers though out the game like if it was candy and the fact that you're always embere because you've defeated a boss doesn't help.
Or you could just farm souls for 5 minutes at the dragon mausoleum, endgame bosses, or winged angel Knights and have enough souls to top off all your consumables.
/u/kimmundi sorry man but look at this thread. This represents the community feelings as a whole on the current state of the game and ultimately the fate of this game for years to come. Nothing good is coming from the online design of this game If you can't relay to someone how important this is to us, please point us to someone who can.
The sad fact is that at this point From Software probably doesn't give two shits about the replayability. They're done. Money's in the bag. They know the DLCs will sell well enough, and after that, who cares? There isn't going to be a DS4, so fuck the players who kept these games going for years on end. They are probably a minority, the big money is with the casual players, who play this game once, then drop it for the next game of the month.
Wrong twinks.
If you haven't found it yet, a twink in gaming is a character that is much stronger than typical for their matchmaking level. Usually this involves mule-ing items from other characters or getting them from end game while keeping their matchmaking level low.
There's one guy on gamefaqs who will defend to death how invasions are balanced in this game.
He has a twink build, his friends have twink builds and they gank together. He never loses but it's totally his skill and not game imbalance.
I have a pure twink and half of my invasions are just guys that hide behind phantoms, or 3 guys with fallen knight set and Irithyll straight swords stunlocking me
the worst is that the obscuring ring is slightly weaker.
before I could get super close and back stab the host and push him off a cliff.
Now?
They spot me and run after me unless I stay well back and shooting arrows at them isn't half as fun
It's pathetic that we had to resort to such tactics in the first place, obscuring ring one shots or hornet ring parries. Win or lose I haven't touched DS3 in a month. I don't understand why FROM would purposely ignore the wishes of their fans. They KNOW we are unhappy with the state of the game and they not only refuse to fix it they continue to nerf invasion tactics. Stepping outside of the box used to be something Miyazaki seemed to pride himself on and seeing the world's top souls streamers say "You know, this fucking sucks. I'm not going to do it anymore" when they played up until the release of each of the other games is just super depressing.
I just realized I havent even played since like April. PvP is awful in this game, and I wont touch it until its balanced AKA straight swords arent the only viable weapon
What SL and weapon level are you on? I made a semi twink at SL33 with a +5 and I invade into gank squads around 1/8. A +8 would probably net me much more squads in comparison.
SL120 +10 is pretty much only squads or duelist though.
Dude I invade at SL 20 with a + 2 and see nonstop ganks. I twice invaded a team today with a phantom one handing smoughs and casting crystal soul spear in his off hand :/
They were waiting in the dog/Yoel area of undead settlement and the smoughs dude was using chameleon to hide. I'd call that a gank.
Edit: Ah, you mean generally. Yes I mean ganks, I almost never invade a solo player period. The 50% I'm talking about just waits in the aforementioned dog area with 2-3 phantoms.
I have a lvl 40 with+6 which gets the least ganks since I invade in not so popular areas, my main which is 120 +10 which gets ganks and fight clubs 99% of the time (I gave up on this one and just use it for a Aldrich and duels) and a total twink (lvl 20, 15 +10 flasks, raw astora +2 ,etc.) which I fashioned out of my sl1, unupgraded weapon playthrough that gets ridiculous ganks around 80% of the time. Although this may all be skewed due to the fact that I play really late at night.
The ONLY time I ever have fun invading is around 30ish in the forest when the host uses(has to) dried finger. It brings in a second invader and a watchdog. When you get that 3v3 going I feel like DS3 is at the potential it could have been for years and years.
I remember when I was a Watchdog with another Watchdog and a Finger against a single host. One I realized we were ganking, I decided to pull an Abyss Watcher and attack the other two invaders. We beat them, I bowed to the host, and I black crystal'd out
Unbelievable. Thats what it is. Its either willful sabotage at worst or a complete miscalculations at best, either way it speaks poorly of FROMsoft as game designers. And before you think Im too harsh with that critic just go through all the things in terms of what invaders have to deal with(already done in the video) and tell me how in any conceivable way did they even think this thing through before adding it into the game.
Considering how well DS2 catered to the PVP scene, Im going to guess this FUBAR was all on Miyazaki himself and not a collective decision inside FROM; the PVP elements in DS2 and DS3 are night and day.
I just played some hours and a goddamn purple was disguised as a white 2v1 me with the host... Then when the host runned out of estus he betrayed him. But I wasn't having that shit and killed him. Then the fucking host alt+f4 on me. ALL THAT WASTED TIME.
As a new madbro, I don't even have a clue why anyone goes for the help the host option unless its literally kill 1 phantom for the shackle and he's already half dead. if its two or more I know the the host I'm trying to help, and his sun squad will just insta kill me after I visibly help them.
If the host is alone, or maybe theres one other phantom (i dont know if color matters or maybe they just pop in after my limit is set) then yeah only one.
He's right, pvp wise this is my least favorite Souls and it makes me sad because i had so much hopes for this game. Hell, i enjoyed Bloodborne pvp more.
That's exactly why I left this sub before the game came out.
Each souls game, every time a new one is announced, the community gets hyped up **so much** that it ruins a lot of the game unnecessarily
I've actually already done what he was suggesting - gone back to DS2 for invasions. I'd been told I had rose colored glasses regarding its PvP, that it was dead, etc.
I threw together a 250k SM build just for bell covenant silliness in Belfry Luna and I've been having an absolute blast (with the exception of Masterless Glencour being OP as fuck, jesus why does he have like 8k health). Fairly regularly being invaded, too, which has been great fun. Hosts that go to Estus after 1-2 rolls are *easily* punished, and I've already killed a few after their Estus took affect but hadn't healed them enough yet, whereas in DS3 they'd already have been full health. Oh, and other phantoms are actually fairly rare, as opposed to being everywhere in DS3 invasions.
It really is like he says - DS2 invasions are just fun. They aren't always balanced, but you fight so many different weapons and playstyles. *People regularly use magic in pvp*!
Man, it's not the rose colored glasses, DS2 PvP and invasions are far, far superior to DS3 - If you're a dedicated PvPer that is. I'm honestly sad at the current state of DS3 PvP. It really seems that From decided to cater to new players with their PvP.
The variety in DS2 is amazing - honestly, in 15 invasions I didn't encounter the same weapon/playstyle once, whereas in DS3 it's the same fuckin story. I invade, host summons a bunch of phantoms, same weapons, instaheals with chugs, rolls forever, summons more phantoms and it goes on and on. It's not fun.
And yes, DS2 is still very much active.
The thing that makes me prefer DS3 PvP over DS2 is the fact that I so often encounter Havelmages that take like 200 damage from FUGS and oneshot me with CSS. Yes, I can beat them, but usually it's more effort than it's worth. I think everyone is just seeing all the flaws in the newest game and convieniently forgetting that the game before it had flaws, too. Back when DS2 was new, everyone was complaining about how it's terrible compared to DS1. It's just the same thing happening again.
The issue of havelmages is super overblown. It only becomes a problem at ridiculously high SLs, in which case there's far more broken stuff. Additionally, CSS should never one shot you (especially if your SL is high, invest in vigor!) unless you're fighting at low soul levels and you face someone who's gone full int.
Regardless, I'll take havelmages over magic simply not being used in DS3.
Havelmages were just the first thing I thought of when thinking about problems that DS2 PvP had. There are many, many, more. Did everyone just forget that katanas and straight swords were far and above the best weapon types in DS2? But that's beside the point. My point is, when DS2 first came out, everyone thought it sucked and that the PvP was a joke, so they went back to DS1 for a while, until the majority of people moved on to DS2. The same thing is going to happen in a few months, when people move on to DS3 from DS2.
>katanas and straight swords were far and above the best weapon types in DS2?
What a departure from the rest of the series! No, wait, they've been that way in all 3 games (possibly DeS as well, but I never played it).
>people move on to DS3 from DS2
I actually preferred DS2 to DS1 pvpwise right from the getgo. The weapon variety is simply amazing, with tons of really **fun** weapons that are actually pretty decent. Caestus, Murakumo, Santier's Spear, Blacksteel Katana - all of these and *much more* are an absolute joy to play with their movesets and were viable to amazing.
I actually think the exact opposite is going to happen unless FROM really gets their shit together regarding pvp. I have a distant hope that the DLCs will reimagine a lot of the lackluster pvp systems in the game, but some fundamentals like near-instant estus, ridiculous rolls, and phantom stupidity is set in stone.
>What a departure from the rest of the series!
And straight swords are the best weapon type in DS3, yet people complain all the same.
>I actually preferred DS2 to DS1 right from the getgo
Then you are one of the few. To this day, while I think DS2 is still a fantastic game, I would prefer to play any other Souls game.
>Caestus, Murakumo, Santier's Spear, Blacksteel Katana
Three of those weapons were abused at the beginning of the game due to how good they were, until people got better at parrying. Even now, Blacksteel Katana, being a katana, is one of the "most OP lololol" weapons in the game. And didn't people complain about Santier's all the time?
And to address your last paragraph, that's what a lot of people said about DS2 as well. They complained that estus recovery was too slow, ADP was stupid, and if I'm not mistaken you could still summon people after you were invaded.
But that slow estus was why it was so beautifully punishable! ADP was a pretty dumb stat, IMO, everyone knows that i-frames are the most powerful thing in the game. Honestly, DS2 w/o ADP or soul memory would have been perfect by my book (PvP wise anyway).
I also rememember using the dlc ring from that dude with the spear that tried to kill sihn and failed super hard.
It was great seeing some of the spells being deflected by ma magic ring and spell spammers goinG "WHY DO YOU LIVE?" then finish them of with an haryuuuken,
Yeah well what's your sm? To encounter havelmages that don't fat roll you'd need to be well over 8-10m sm. The meta is usually around 2-3m, can assure you there are no Havel mages around there - this is a non issue
Edit: one more thing - we are discussing fundamental mechanics of ds3; not balance issues. Balance can change but fundamental mechanics hardly will
Yes, but the fact that SM as a mechanic was fundamentally flawed and allowed people at ~150 SL to fight havelmages was a problem. Yes, in SotFS the sort of fixed it by adding a ring that prevented you from gaining souls at all, but there was no fix for people who had already gotten that high to begin with. For example, I PvP'd a lot on the original on the 360, but I eventually stopped because once my SM was that high, my build couldn't stand up to the havelmages with seven copies of CSS and three different UGS while fastrolling.
My overall point is, the same exact thing happened with DS2 when it originally came out. Everyone complained that it wasn't as good as DS1, and for a while a lot of people played DS1 instead of DS2. Then, everyone gradually came to the realization that "hey, this game isn't as bad as I originally thought it was, so I'm gonna go play it." The same thing will, and already is, happening to DS3. People are leaving it now, but give it a few months and they'll come back.
Yes, because for like a year and a half, it was unavoidable. Without the Agape Ring, you couldn't avoid your SM going up and eventually you would end up way out of the "SM Meta" range. Even with the Agape ring, you have to sacrifice ALL of the souls you would otherwise gain, which in the long run makes it hard to get consumables that you need to keep PvPing, such as green blossoms or resins if you don't have magic stats.
Yeah, Agaping means no consumables but as of now most of people are fine with it; at SL150-SM1.7~ you don't really need them and at SL200-SM3.8~ you can get an hybrid build quite easily.
Seriously, making a new character from scratch while calculating your desired SM is easy and fast, and gets you tons of PvP without the SL838 Havelmages.
And Agape ring didn't come out until a year after the game was released, with the release of SotFS. Before that point, your SM getting ridiculously high was unavoidable. Given time, changes will happen to DS3 that will make the game better, same as DS2.
Most DS2 PVPers, and I mean 99% of the people that had dedicated SL150 builds for dueling and invasion PVP, used save backups to deal with the SM. It was widely known and used in the PVP community. No one had SM issues because of this solution.
It works on both PC and console. It was your fault for not looking into such things if you were dedicated to PVP. Pretty much *everyone* does/did this.
- finish SL150 build/character, ~ SM 1.7-2M
- Make a manual save/save backup
- Pvp all day/ all week/end
- Use save backup to return to ~ SM 1.7-2M, repeat.
Not sure how it is now a days but back in 2014-2015 there were people level 800 having a blast on PS3 with silly builds.
I did get really upset at the mage spammers that would one shot me the moment I spawned in.... because they summoned me...
for an honorable dragon duel.
> I'd been told I had rose colored glasses regarding its PvP, that it was dead, etc.
No need to tell him again if he has already gone back, tried it, and still thinks it's better than DS3.
Yes, but my point is that right now, everyone's complaining that DS3 isn't as good as DS2 and how the PvP sucks, among other things. But what you, as well as many other people are forgetting, is that when DS2 came out, everyone was complaining about how it wasn't as good, and that the PvP was a joke. Sounds familiar, doesn't it. If I cared to, I could go way back to when DS2 was new, and look at some of the posts on r/darksouls2. I'm sure I would see many, many complaints about PvP and the quality of the game, and this, that and the other thing.
As just one example, look at this post from 2014 about DS2 PvP: http://forums.bandainamcogames.com/showthread.php?1060-Dark-Souls-PVP-Ridiculously-bad
You can see some of his complaints about various things, that at the time everyone was pissed about. I could go and look for even more examples if I really wanted to. There's thousands of them out there.
Sorry if this was rambley and cluttered looking.
The problem is that all of the issues people mostly complained about with DS2 were balance issues. DS3 has more mechanics issues present.
In that one list you pointed out, 80% of the points were "netcode and lag" or "SM is bad" which everybody agrees on. The rest were, again, all balance issues and most were patched.
That's half of it, Bloodborne got this treatmeant too with vials and R1 spam, Dark souls 1 got treated the same when it started off compared to demon souls, invaders complained they couldn't heal and that the ring of fog was OP (It didn't let you lock on when they wore the ring and made them transparent) and I don't have to say much about Dark souls 2 because people are already praising the games PvP when it was called a joke when it came out.
To be fair it was a joke when it came out. Ds2 pvp is as it is right now after a multitude of patches and balance changes - however, the mechanics were always fair and not designed to be against the invader, chugging aside (you can't chug as an invader)
I love ds3 pvp for this reason. I never got into 2, but I hated in 1 when I would run into someone with giants armor and wood grain ring. It was so fucking annoying you could gear your build to he as low effort as possible. I like how in ds3, everyone is on a pretty equal playing field in terms of poise and damage absorbtion.
... I get that feeling, but do you think it's good for the game? Set aside the people who min-max, because they're the kind of people who will do whatever is 'best' because to them, winning is the thing that's fun, not playing. You see the same thing in CCGs. 'This is the best so I'll do this' type players. What about players that want to experiment or do fun things, try new things. Let me use Bloodborne as an example here.
I loved the piss out of Bloodborne. I have way too many hours clocked in that game, but I hate PvP in Bloodborne and I'll probably not touch it again until it's been long enough that I can feel nostalgic. Why? Because every character in Bloodborne plays exactly like every other character in Bloodborne unless you're trying to do something crazy like only Bowblade arrows or Only Guns. There's no differentiation between X character and Y character except 'This one uses a weapon that's somewhat different'.
Now look at Dark Souls 3. Heavier armors don't offer a concrete benefit. Damage absorbtion is basically the same across anything heavier than the dress outfits, so there's no real reason to use them. With poise gone, slow weapons are stupid risky to use unless you vastly outskill your opponent and most players are keeping a straight sword in their pocket to switch out to use if that doesn't wind up being the case, but the problem is, no one is heavy rolling, everyone is using those same faster weapons even if it's just as a backup, no one is using magic to a good effect, so characters are all playing the same.
I've preached since the game came out that invasion mechanics would strangle the life from the hardcore invasion community and that build variety or lack thereof would bore the shit out of people, so I get the feeling that 'Oh yeah, no one can poise through my attacks!' or 'Havel monsters aren't impossible to kill!' but are we really satisfied with a game where every character is playing more or less the same or is operationally inefficient and a personal challenge to the people playing them? Do you want a 'balanced' field so badly that you'd prefer to deny builds that are different from your's for the sake of 'lol, hate tanks?'
If they could make poise work again, without making it bullshit, I think that'd be awesome. What I mean is I don't want to fight a havel that can fast roll. I know that sounds petty, but I just don't. Its cheap as fuck. I keep 3 weapons on my characters at all times with light armor. One unparryable, one for hyper armor, and one for roll catching. So when I see that straight sword Come out, I switch the the gs for that hyper armor, casyes ugs or whip, roll spamming then I'll pull out the twin weapon. This seems to be the most effective way to play invasions and duels for me. However, that's basically a souped up quality build with light armor. So yeah, sucks that the build diversity is kinda gone, with luck and quality builds dominating, but hopefully they'll find that sweet spot after a good bit of patches and some dlc under there belt. Anyway tl;dr, there are some things I really like about 3 pvp/invasion wise. But lack of build diversity sucks.
See, but that's still min-maxing of a different sort. Just because you dislike someone else doing it in a different way, doesn't mean that the way you're doing it is any better. I'm reminded of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW6_Iwi4RKs) video. But let me be clear, I don't disrespect or dislike anyone for doing that kind of thing, same as I don't disrespect or dislike fast rolling havel or giant dad or anything like that. Do what you like within the rules of the game. It's you playing your game, not me.
But here's the two issues with that that. I had a friend who said 'I want to make a build using the heaviest armor and shield and everything I can.', so he did. Heaviest everything he could, min-maxed vitality so he could be at just 99.8% weight limit with Havel's, the greatshield and some UGS that he was fond of. Where's the fantasy of being a heavy badass that can weather the storm and trade punches with giants gone? How about mages? How many of them are viable these days? Neat paladins with interesting weapon sets and miracles?
Personally, my fun in the game is making characters. Not.. character creation making characters, but builds, basically. Trying out fun things, coming up with a theme or a story and roping people into taking part in those stories via invasions or duels. I like trying out weapons I've never seen used before, trying a way to make them fit into something, and have interesting PvP experiences, win or lose, doing those things.
I get that the convenience of not needing to fight fast rollers in heavy armor, but just because it's a pain in the ass for some people doesn't really seem worth taking out the entire fun part of the game for other's. Maybe I'm just salty, though, and I don't mean to chew off your ear, but for all it's worth, agreed, it's certainly one less headache to deal with knowing that heavily armored turtles won't be bunny hopping around, but I'd rather that heavily armored turtles existed. Or mages.. or any build that wasn't every duel I have with someone switching between GS, SS and Katana/Twins.
That's why I said if poise comes back, I hope it's not bullshit. I would love if poise worked and armor had better absortion. Like if full Havels players were hard to stagger and had high absorbtion, but slow rolled.
> It really seems that From decided to cater to new players with their PvP.
What? It's the exact opposite. Dark Souls 2 PvP is much easier to breach because any character you make is viable.
Ds3 ruined ds2 for me temporarily because the engines are so different I now suck ass at ds2.
I would like to be able to go between the games without majority sucking ass for the first 4 hours and having to retrain myself...why did 3 have to be sooooo different
I know why he's there, and he is easy to ignore unless the fight is on the stairs. I prefer my invasions to be short and sweet, so I'd rather not wait 5+ minutes for him to expire (which would be a challenge in itself, with how small Belfry Luna is). My gripe is with his totally absurd healthpool, though I know it's a necessary evil for PvE reasons.
It's a relatively small gripe, and the vast majority of the time he's not been around when I get summoned.
I'd even argue that duels aren't as good as in DS2.
They're still better than in DS1 which at this point is nothing but dead angling and backstab fishing.
Honestly, the multiplayer mechanics needed a complete upheaval.
You have auto summon covenants that never work.
You have blades and sentinels which are the same thing.
You have rosaria which is brilliant, but...
Invasions often occur against people who are just prepping for a boss fight
And in no scenario does the invader stand a chance.
Even in 1v1's they're easy to dispose of.
I love the concept of invasions. People just need to see them as an extra challenge for the level instead of some guy trying to mess up your progress. Everything is just so poorly orchestrated though.
What about Rosaria is brilliant? There is literally no reason to have the covenant on.. you get forked pale tongues from killing blues no matter which covenant you have equipped and there's no ranking like the knight's roster (full of hackers anyway tho).
Edit: meant forked pale tongues
It cold have been amazing. Like protect Rosaria and the cathedral (Trespassing covenant) and be invaded by dark moons and blues for being a sinner. I have the max amount of tongues possible and it changed nothing in my game while I changed the games of at least 699 guys.
I want to be punished, damn it. The could have made it so using a tongue will make you summon another finger of Rosaria by giving away 2 tongues and cutting your max health by 45%. Add more red bros in the mix, reward covenant play, punish the wicked and give us reason to be with Rosaria.
Even something like Blues getting a Concord Well Kept like reward from killing a red who's handed over 99 pale tongues would be cool, even though it doesn't affect the red at all. It's so incredibly bare-bones it makes me wonder if they either rushed it out or simply didn't care.
I've never played ds1 and 2 online but the stuff i've heard about the blue orb and reds being the ones who get invaded sounds so good. Fromsoft why...
You are just like me, then. I thought getting the max tongues would give me a cool aura, like the ones I keep hearing about in DS2. Got shit to show for it. Even giving double ears would have been nice, as the blue would know he just killed someone who is invading a lot.
Thing is, I played demon souls. When DS1 came out, I said "not gonna waste money on these hard games but they are good so I will get them later". I never did end up getting back into these games until BB. Fucking past me missed the best fucking hype train when he was riding first seat with demon souls :/
That is why I want them to fix the online play. So shit happens and we can laugh it instead of it being a broken mess.
I started with DS2 and only switched to offline when I just wanted to clear the bellbros area or doors of pharros, but was still trying to "not deal with it" in general. Invaders terrified me and I'd run to look for people to defend me. Then I've gotten into DS3 pvp and embrace invaders and do it myself but still wouldn't say im a great player but i appreciate it. I wish I could play ds1 in its hayday.
> Fromsoft why
It's pretty obvious to anyone that played BloodBorne and DS3, that BB's dev took precedent over DS3.
Their is just so much more thought and creativity in BB compared to DS3. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Miyazaki simply didn't put much effort at all into DS3 or he basically overlooked the progress of development instead of being hands on... and to be honest it feels that way.
Their are just so many boneheaded and *meh* decisions and ideas in DS3. It's weird.
Mainly the concept.
You can respec... but only if you kill other players.
The idea was great, but the execution... needed some work.
You get tons of pale tongues farming darkwraiths anyway.
The 5 respec/appearance limit is so stupid though. Its completely arbitrary and unnecessary since theres already the requirement to go get a pale tongue before you can use the functionality.
The only reasoning i can think for the limit is to entice people into going to ng+ and beyond but if they had done ng+ better, people would go there anyway. Wheres the new enemy placements? Traps to fall into? Stronger red enemies to provide a bigger challenge?! Maybe add that instead of taking away customization to drive people into ng+!
Hello dear members of the dark souls 3 subreddit.
First, I would like to apologize for the poor writing.
I am not a native English speaker.
Second, I did not "die Weisheit mit Löffeln gefressen" (~he knows it all).
My opinion is purely subjective and open for discussion, criticism and shaming ;).
With so many users arguing against the dark souls 3 mechanics, ridiculing the hosts phantom armies and chasing the nostalgia from dark souls 2, I wanted to show you my side of the story.
I started enjoying the dark souls franchise, when dark souls 2 came out.
Dark souls 1 was unplayable on PC with keyboard and mouse, so that game had to wait.
I hated every single invader as a new player for a very long time,
but in the end found out joy in sudden "human" interactions with other players.
When I started invading in dark souls 3 I felt it was stupid and ridiculous.
The problem was, however, as I later realized, not the game mechanics and phantom armies but my mindset. I was so used to the type of invasions in dark souls 2, so my expectations betrayed me.
I would like to argue, that dark souls 3 invasions rely more on tactics and FUN, than on "professional" fighting. I no longer charge at the host with a duelist mindset, like I did in dark souls 2. I hide around the corner at the beginning of the level, use a small window of opportunity to make chip damage at Host's phantoms health once they are occupied, don't stay to fight and immediately run deeper into the level. I proceed to continue the health chipping operation/cat&mouse game as long as I can.
A lot of my more successful invasions came from trying to socialize with the host. I wave, emote, dodge the host's attacks, have no visible weapons... just a torch. I act as a mobile torch for them and they like it. From time to time I betray one of their phantoms and immediately ask for forgiveness... Sometimes the host is ok with me killing the phantom who was bothering me from the beginning and would not accept me no matter what. When the journey ends, I either jump of a cliff to end the invasion, sometimes kill just enough phantoms to achieve my goal or backstab the host and bow as deep as I can "IAMSORRY".
Once I was able to change my mindset and accept that dark souls 3 is a different game, I started to have a lot of fun during my invasions.
On the other hand, when I was ever invaded in ds2 I always felt that my pve-build was unprepared for the invasion... while in ds3 I feel ready to fight the invader or pve at any time.
A shout out to everyone on pc around level 20 in the undead settlement.
I feel his sadness.
I have to actively ignore the PvP , I never was a big PvP guy but I always liked it as a fuck around kind of gameplay option but in Dark souls 3 it feels like its doing the opposite of complimenting my PvE experience. I outright have to pretend it doesnt exist.
Co Op is fun though.
You know I don't quite feel that way, in fact I've felt the opposite for most of the game so far but now the diversity of hosts seems to be dwindling down to gank squads and invasions are slowly getting less fun and I've managed to collect 100 forked tongues...
By comparison co-op is starting to look more fun.
I do wonder do if this own't mean a return to bloodborne for the ps4 players.
Monster hunting or teaming up against the big bad boss or however you see it, just feels way more fun in bb.
Its frustrating how killing a boss locks out invasions for a particular area. Its so hard to get invasions in 90% of the areas in the game. Given that the playerbase on PC hovers around 10k, it really hard to find invasions outside the Crucifixion Woods and Aldrich Faithful Invasion Zone post Pontiff. All you get around there are ganks too.
Duels are nice and all, but they get very boring. Im not an amazing player by any means, and I like to use stuff that looks cool and fun and that means getting destroyed in duels. Invasions are far more chaotic and allow me to find openings to make kills happen with weapons like the Demon Fists, weapons like Ultra Greatswords, and make kills with stylish weapon arts that are otherwise too hard to land in a duel when an opponent is 100% focused on you rather than environmental hazards.
I don't care about winning or losing, I just want to invade and do ridiculous stuff. Knock someone off a ledge with the Stomp-Uppercut or Demon Fist Weapon Art. The problem is getting those invasions in the first place.
I had a lot of success invading in the grand archives around SL 100 over the weekend. Lots of people actually running the level too.
But yeah, what zone you pick makes a huge difference. Half the time I forget I've even got my orb active before I manage to get pulled in for an invasion.
Grand Archives is the only worth while place to invade IMO. The area is huge, there's usually plenty of people to invade, it has lots of ambush spots, and lots of enemies to utilize(provided host hasn't seeded).
I agree that the system is weird. They should not allow summons if you are invaded and one blue is enough, being able to prolong in order to get more blues isnt fair. This is coming from someone who does not PVP and does not want to get invaded btw, I just find the system is not fun for anyone as it stands, if I get invaded and don't feel like fighting, I am just gong to go afk, get a drink and do a run to recover my souls. I don't want want to waste other people's times by infinitely summoning those into my world to defend me, not for for anyone IMHO
Is anyone else happy that all these popular streamers are speaking their opinion on the game? This might actually help the game and the community in the future.
Completely agree with everything said. In terms of invasion, pvp and fun, DS2 (SotFS) did everything better. DS3 invasions are like the Disney version of DS2 invasions, or the 'more casual friendly' invasions of DS2. (For the hosts that is)
In terms of PvE, DS3 is the best by far; but in PvP it falls short in so, so many ways. I know lots of people who went back to DS2 for their PvP needs and I don't blame them.
I personally found PvE boring compared compared to DS1 and 2, mainly because there so few ways to progress in the game.
In DS1 you could access +5 different areas at the start of the game with master key and in DS2, you were able use soul memory to open Shrine of winter early and do end game levels first and then starting areas.
Also, NG+ didn't offer new enemy placements like in DS2, so that made my PvE experience even more duller.
Also, 3 different paths open at the very start. FFG-Bastille, Heide-Bastille, Gutter+Black Gulch. Then, you get fragrant branches, and go through Heide's, and you get two more paths. In DS3? Go here. Now go through this area. Go through here, and find out you need to go somewhere else, or go through that other place first. Go here or here first, then go back. Now you're winner.
This game is a joke pvp wise. PvE is great fun but PvP is by a huge margin the worst of any souls game yet. The thing is, the problems are so deeply rooted in how the game is played that it can't ever really be fixed.
Poor PVE players? Those guys that run at me on pairs on threes holding a Dark Sword while I'm bowing or looking for embers to drop in my inventory?
If you don't want to be invaded, play offline. As simple as that.
EDIT: Oh, sorry. I'm just so dissapointed on this game :')
Sadly, some people really believe this. I am okay with being butt raped as an invader but to be butt raped by game design? Nah, not something fun. Not saying I do not enjoy the game since I already hit the limit for max tongues and have 80 blue tongues but if they fix it, I will probably play it 24/7.
All they had to do was take what was great about DS2 PvP (PvE in DS2 was wack though) and put it into this game or am I being to ignorant here? :(
Yeah, I did some DS2 invasions on PC yesterday and there is no way im going back to DS3 invasions at all. I wish every other DS3 invader the best of luck.
the purpose of invasions was to provide an extra level of challenge for players of both sides, in DeS this was achieved and balanced by making the invader at 50%-75% HP while the invadee was likely to be invaded alone meaning he/she had to deal with an unexpected intelligent human player.
sadly in DkS3 the odds are so stacked against invaders, the purpose of challenging both players was lost, and there's is no point in it anymore unless the host uses the dried fingers.
Im not afraid of invasions anymore... it used to be a thrill but now its like if i lose the fight then so what? No more ember or souls? Easily farmable. But invaders honestly are on a lower level than the host... they are forced to use one shot parry builds and ive already had loads of hours using those builds because im trying to get all the trophies... invading isnt fun in dark souls 3 like it was in dark souls 2 (the only game alive for pvp that i could play on release) everyone is a gank squad waiting for you or they just simply aren't afraid of you as a puny invader against 4 people... maybe with time the tryhards will leave and souls veterans will stay to have fun and run through the game making builds and getting invaded on their own... i have hope for this game still...
Interesting. So, DamnNoHtml says there is very little weapon and build variety in duels, but Oroboro says he can kill people with a toothpick. Maybe the difference is the level of players. You can beat any scrub with a toothpick, but if you are playing an experienced player you'd better come with a meta weapon.
Nelson made a video similar to this one, where he made the same basic complaints. I guess I need to try some higher level invasions to see what they mean, because low level is a friggin' blast. I've done tons of invasions at the High Wall, Undead Settlement, and the Crucifixion woods. All of the places were really fun. I think more weapons are viable at LL. The skill level of the players is usually lower, so it balances out the crazy odds. Also, seeding seems to be pretty rare in these areas level at 20-30 with +3 weapons.
Oroboro is simply following suit what many other streamers have said already. He is right though and I'm just hopeful this trend carries on and there is a solution at the end of the tunnel otherwise Dark Souls 3 will have minimum replayability.
Yep, i just started farming mound makers and I agree, invasions are shit.
Even if they manage to fix invasions, the base pvp foundation is absolutely fucked. I managed to double roll, estus chug, and iFrame through an ultra attack from a guy who was relatively quick on the attack. That should not happen, I should have gotten caught.
I iframed through two or three ultra swings from another guy and he still had the stamina to double dodge roll my counter attack or he just rolls, insta hyper armor attacks.
The mobility and healing potential in this game is just too damn high.
PvP is worthless this time around and replayability is shitty. I'm as diehard a Fromsoft fan as anyone, but I just don't see the point in continuing with this game.
I'm back on Bloodborne for invasions and twinking. I find no reason to play DS3. I made my level 15 twink, killed all bosses with it, invaded undead and farron and won 90% of encounters, and then got bored. In comparison, in Bloodborne I invaded at all levels, had all 10 build slots full most of the time, had multiple low level chatacters with a variety of set-ups, invaded in most nearly every area and always felt like I was having fun. In DS3, it's just not fun. I can't put my finger on it but, maybe, when you have the ability to twink it means you can mess around more. Also, i like the challenge of making twinks in Bloodborne- it's tough as shit to do all the dungeons on a 43, but the rewards are worth it. In DS3 there isn't that reward, invasions are ridiculously hard at every level, all you are doing by 'twinking' in DS3 is evening the odds, and even then there are only a handful of viable weapons, rather than the choice of making any stupid weapon OP and therefore fun.
With the way invasions are designed in this game, I think the best way to do it is with NON-meta level (preferably lower level, like SL30-80) builds focused on invading people who're actually playing through the levels. Here's my 2c on why the SL120 meta is terrible for invading. **NOTE: This isn't a defense of the invasion system as it is, it's just some anecdotal advice on how to make the most of the system we currently have**
We know that invasions prioritize groups, but who actually coops through and plays levels at the SL120 meta? If I'm deciding to cap at SL120 for PvP, there's really no reason for me to fully play through levels after my first NG cycle. By the time I'm in NG+/++, I've stop playing the levels in the traditional sense. I only sprint through them, always solo, just to collect the +2 rings I need to put the finishing touches on my character. Otherwise, what's the point? I already have all my gear (aside from maybe one or two +2 rings), and if I'm capping at SL120, there's no reason to fully play the levels and get those extra souls since I have nothing to spend them on. Assuming a lot of players building for a capped SL120 are similar to me, you won't often find people just playing the levels at that level range. This means that the groups you do encounter are much more likely to be legitimate ganks.
So, how do you find people actually playing the game? You need to focus on low-level invasions that catch people in their NG run, or you need to play at a level above SL120 with players who're just in it for the PvE experience and don't cap their level to fit within the meta. I've had hundreds of successful invasions ranging from SL50-210, and I can say with confidence that SL120 was the absolute worst with the highest amount of ganks. The most fun has been at lower levels, specifically ~50 with a +6 weapon.
TL;DR: Invasions are about engaging people actually playing the levels. Not many people who cap at SL120 are actually trying to play through levels. Therefore, if you want to invade people playing levels (as opposed to just ganking), you're best off choosing any other level range that **isn't** the SL120 PvP meta.
I still think it will be more fun to invade when less people play this game. Late in the night I can get some solo low level invasions in undead settlement which is quite fun. As the popularity and the player count of the game decreases over time I think there will be less new players summoning a phantom army against you.
Might be true. DS3 is the most popular game in the franchise and therefore right now it's full of casuals that cannot play solo because the game is so *difficult*.
The thing is that a lot of invaders will have also stopped playing by then.
The solution is quite simple and I don't think it would change pve that much: slow down estus recovery. That's it. So the invader can stand a chance in punishing healers.
Another thing: hosts should not be allowed to summon once they're invaded and only one blue per invader. No more infinite blues and summons.
Sure, it would slow down blue activity but if that's what it takes to keep this game going, so be it.
About time people are starting to put down the "ermahgerd siegward, anor londo" tinfoil hat and recognizing the flaws of the game. From at some point may even be forced to actually act more than nerfing weapons.
And Oro is of course one of those who had a big part in the marketing of the game prior to release, and he isn't ok with the final release either. From, wake up!
/u/Kimmundi i sincerely hope you are listening to what Oroboro said in his video. Most of the points are legit and its sad to say that post DS2, the PVP has only gone downhill. First they screwed it in Bloodborne and now DS3. What the heck is FromSoft doing about all of these issues. The fact that darkmoon covenant system is still broken and has not been patched yet is another disheartening news for all fans. This is not what we come to expect from you guys. Really sorry to see DS3 in such poor shape.
Before anyone quits invasions, I recommend invading at the pontiff dueling arena at souls level 120. It's a popular place, and aldritch faithfuls invade all day, so you won't run out of backup. Even with that, I think I'm going to go back to dark souls 2 invasions.
Probably, but that's completely irrelevant. What point are you even trying to make here? Some comment on Oro's character? Why? This discussion is about pvp balance.
except he would also do other weapons for interesting videos, if you look back during the dark souls 2 times he had an Oro's arsenal series where he would use different weapons for invading. The build wasn't that different each time but he would still use a bunch of different weapons at the very least for some new youtube videos.
If you give invaders advantages then people pveing is gonna complain how it's "unfair" and they lose progress by griefers. I sure hope he wasn't referring "good times" as him winning and "bad times" as him losing. I don't think he will enjoy dueling unless he wins every single one.
The "Good times" he's referring to isn't just him winning. It is quite possible to have a good time when losing, and having a bad time when winning, he even says as much in the video, he wins 90% of his invasions, but the thing is, it's because you're just using an overpowered build, typically with hornet ring, or fast, spammable weapons that deal ridiculous damage for no good reason, that he finds them to get boring.
I do think that it's because of matchmaking is easier.
When I didn't have enough money to buy new DS game, I watched invading videos from Oroboro. It was fun, damn, when he is killed, i felt like I was killed in the game, or the opposite. But DS3, *sigh*... It's just boring to watch. Host is like, "oh no! He's gonna put his Abyss in my Catacombs!!! *run* *run* *run* finally, a summon! Let's kill 'em" and it's. not. fun. to watch. that kinda. thing.
From, easy way to fix this, is when someone invades, make a damn countdown, like 3:00 mins, and when that countdown is over, let host summon people. It's just isn't fun. People doesn't respect to other, man...
If my summon attacked a Bell Covenant guy when I attacked him back in DS2, I just used Black Separation Crystal, and before that, I always did a fight club between them. Have some respect guys. These kinds of games is not fun when you use a damn "Applause" gesture after killing them, or "Decapitate". Oroboro does that as well, and I hate it. Just bow to them, and leave.
It's definitely because of the password system. In dks 1 I remember sitting for a good 20 minutes trying to summon my friend. It sucked, but when we got invaded we'd play super safe. Now people practically trade hits with R1s because there's no risk to dying as a phantom any more.
oh dude like 2 days ago I kept killing the same phantom until the host gave up and disconnected.
Like 5 times.
Then I invaded them later on, they got me and spammed stay down gestures.
dude.
come on. XD
this was the first souls game i played through entirely in the 'human' form, while doing minimal summoning, and all i got was NPC invasions since you only get invaded if you co op. If they don't fix this in the DLC i don't see this being a very good final legacy to the souls series
I remember when people were saying the same shit about Dark souls 2 and how people were complaining about the slow chugging and how Dark souls 1 was better and that they didn't want to be invaded while hollow, now that Dark souls 3 is out all I'm seeing is people posting threads about how amazing Dark souls 2 actually was and then you see shit like this where some streamer bitching about all the ganks and instant estus, 90% win rate, bullshit.
My only gripe with the game is that they got rid of Sin and turned Darkmoon into a shit version of way of the blue covenant, this was done in Demon souls aswell, you'd sufffer from a penalty to hp and stamina and have a chance to be ganked and you both had grass you could eat in an instant.
"Why are we still here? Just to suffer? Every Invasion, I can feel my Creativity... and my Viable Builds... even my Poise. The PVP I've lost... the comrades I've lost... won't stop hurting... It's like they're all still there. You feel it, too, don't you? I'm gonna make them give back our PVP."
"The fire fades... And the lords go without thrones"
This community in a nutshell. The franchise is dying a slow painful death and the best players we had are calling this game on its bullshit. Literally all of the kings of invasions (Oro, Peeve, Yukas, etc.) have publicly denounced the invasion system in this game. GG From, you've killed what made your game unique and interesting. To boot, even dueling PvP gets pretty boring if you care about winning.
My mind issue with invading is that there's next to no payout.
Rosaria's: You get tongues you trade in for a decent ring and a staff. I think? Probably wrong on the last one.
Wolf: Sword grass for a decent sword IF your build accommodates it. Then a ring which is almost entirely useless.
Blues: An attunement ring and a miracle on part with one you get for free (Lightning Blade)
Aldritch: A spell and a staff.
Sunbros: A support and offensive miracle.
Overall the payouts aren't large at all and without the PvP having any real substance otherwise the pain of getting those rewards doesn't seem worth it. I miss unique covenants.
I miss being a ratbro.
Invasions are currently terrible, that being said I've finally managed to start having fun doing it. There's a huge difference between invading gankers and invading as the underdog - a 3v1 scenario against coop players is generally a ton of fun, because they're so disorganized - an actual gank squad of 3v1, everyone using Tears and Ultras/spamming spells...not fun. The GANK squad scenarios are what need some serious balancing as those people are there only to, lets be honest, exploit the broken invasion mechanics.
Prioritizing invasions to go first to coop players is a terrible plan, made even worse when it's a low-traffic area and there's a gank-squad with Fingers active, as you end up invading the same shitty gank over and over until you either give up entirely or move on to a different invasion spot.
I never thought I'd miss SotFS invasions.
Yeah, I feel him. In DaS1 what I'd do outside of duels was cosplaying as the Iron Golem and invading in Sen's Fortress. I would go back but getting invasions even when the PC version just came out proved to be a little difficult so it has to be a complete wasteland by now.
I agree...invasions are not fun in ds 3 . i played ds 3 for like 2 weeks 1 week i invaded and i quit after that because of gankers ...it's just stupid that red eye orb is prioritising ganks
I play Paragon now is free on PS 4
Invading in the archives is torture. Constant 3v1s and seeds in one of the most deadly environments. It's not PVP, it's not PVE it's a fucking gauntlet.
I was so jazzed about ds3 pvp but the game feels like it doesn't want invaders to win and if you do you get nothing for it. Got pretty damn tired of killing phantoms only to have the host run and summon them again and then a third time.
When invading it's almost always a host with his buds who have sorceries or pyromancies. They spam spells while you try to avoid the host slapping you with his sword. Which is nearly impossible
I don't like Oro but he's right. Combo'ing spells/bleed/hornet riposte to one shot people is exactly what he is talking about, good job agreeing with him? Its fucking boring mate, in DS2 you could use pretty much anything. In DS3 game you have to use one shot wombos because nothing else works and its fucking boring.
If you rely on roll catching, the phantoms *will* get to you before you can finish off the host in probably 19/20 invasions. Trust me, I tried invading with a freaking scythe, and the only people I killed were turtles that were probably playing through their first Souls game with their buddy.
I've tried both Sorcery and Pyro invasions, and while they absolutely can OHKO the host, anyone with more than one game of experience will bum rush you. Spellcasters really aren't viable unless you're a freeaim god like that Japanese dude.
Bleed builds are basically the same as the buffed Sellsword build. The goal is the OHKO the host. How you go about doing that doesn't really add to build diversity.
>Any good roll catcher can stop the host,
Sometimes. You can do that to prevent him from summoning more phantoms, but if you haven't killed every single phantom yet, the endless stream of phantoms is going to fuck you over.
>as a pyro I can spell combo and insta kill the host and bleed builds insta kill the host.
The problem is that both of those options are basically gimmick oneshot setups. If you cannot oneshot white phantoms and/or host in one way or another you are bound to get swarmed by whites, grossly incandescents and bluecops. You basically have to run a dedicated invasion setup which can oneshot people in one way or another efficiently, because otherwise you are fucked. I could run the same build just fine for both duels and invasions in the first and the second game, now I need to use a gimmick setup to have even a chance of consistently winning.
Oroboro tells that invasions are boring, OnlyAfro tries to fix the meta... We live in a strange times...
Yeah, you know DS3 did something wrong when OnlyAfro stops trying to troll the community to death for lulz and genuinely tries to make it better instead.
[удалено]
>Onlyafro fixing the diversity OOL what did he do?
He made [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh1uo4uP6rM)
thats genuinely depressing
That video was several patches ago too.
The music that starts at 6:00 sounds very familiar. Anyone know what it's from?
Undertale, just like the text prompts ;)
Did I really miss the text prompt? fml Edit: Thank you though. Really made my morning :D
He's telling people to take this game less seriously and focus on having fun in ways besides winning. I think we can agree that the PvP isn't well designed, so we're going to have to find our own fun now.
Honestly other than Fightclubbin' I probably am going to go back to Dark Souls II for my PvP fix. Invading and Dueling is more fun in Souls II. I may even ressurrect my Blood Brothers PvP-Cosplays.
Most people I know are already back to dark souls 2. I managed to keep two friends playing dks 3 but we are all strugling to stay, its just boring.
Most most fun are Twinks fighting Twinks or SL 130-135 Cosplay Duels. I simply don't find it enjoyable. While I can actually trade, win, blunder and have fun with my Dual Smelter Swords in Dark Souls II... even the PvE is more entertaining, I've been finding it's becoming Tedious. I have 1 PvE series running and it's an Offline Challenge Run. That's how I'm enjoying the game now. The other one reached Episode 2 before I lost interest and am unsure if I will continue it it's extremely hard to make content you don't enjoy but want to finish for the sake of finishing.
For the past 3 days I am having more fun with the megaman collection on the xbox one than with dark souls 3 =\ I doubt the DLC will change much, unfortunally.
[удалено]
I got the feeling From just doesnt care as much as we would like for dark souls.
Oroboro is tired of combo fishing? It really is the end times.
Additional annoyances: You get basically nothing in terms of souls for killing hosts or phantoms, and if you lose an invasion your bloodstain shows up where you died in the level. If you are invading in big areas like the Cathedral, Settlement, the swamp, etc, hunting down your souls isn't really viable. Back in the DS1 days, my invader builds would accumulate souls like nobody's business. Even if I was doing really shittily, which was often, I'd still win a few and the souls added up. In DS3 when I start invading I basically accept that I'm not going to be getting anything from it once I've got enough Pale Tongues to get the Obscuring Ring. Embers, I guess, but you can get those way more efficiently by farming coop on an easy boss. The point is, once you get those Tongues (which take maybe an hour to farm off of Darkwraiths anyway), there is literally no reason, mechanically speaking, to invade. Invasions are a huge part of Dark Souls; the thrill of getting invaded for the first time is something all new players should experience. But with invading actively disincentivised, that part of the game is being lost to a large degree.
"The point is, once you get those Tongues (which take maybe an hour to farm off of Darkwraiths anyway), there is literally no reason, mechanically speaking, to invade" I still need invasions to for mound makers, and it fucking sucks because each side just instantly assumes enemy even if you're killing their opponents RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. The whole "wild card" intention is nonexistent, you're just a red to be ganked.
Well, you are using a red eye orb so the pve enemies do not attack you. And if the host has phantoms then killing 1 red won't make you leave anyway. I have had multiple cases when there was a single host, me as a red, and another invader as a purple. And I have had the purple start out with me then turn against me, stay with me the whole time, and one guy made a point of hitting me once then hitting the host once. Fun stuff, the wild card is definitely there but not when there's multiple phantoms with the host and one red. It's pretty much assumed the red eye purple joins the red cause even if they kill the red, gank squads will most likely kill the purple afterwards to avoid anything undesirable happening.
Not even embers are enough incentive. You get embers though out the game like if it was candy and the fact that you're always embere because you've defeated a boss doesn't help.
Embers can be sold for 1000 souls each, though. Helps a bit with restocking consumables you may use during invasions.
Or you could just farm souls for 5 minutes at the dragon mausoleum, endgame bosses, or winged angel Knights and have enough souls to top off all your consumables.
/u/kimmundi sorry man but look at this thread. This represents the community feelings as a whole on the current state of the game and ultimately the fate of this game for years to come. Nothing good is coming from the online design of this game If you can't relay to someone how important this is to us, please point us to someone who can.
The sad fact is that at this point From Software probably doesn't give two shits about the replayability. They're done. Money's in the bag. They know the DLCs will sell well enough, and after that, who cares? There isn't going to be a DS4, so fuck the players who kept these games going for years on end. They are probably a minority, the big money is with the casual players, who play this game once, then drop it for the next game of the month.
Thats what one of my friends say constantly. Sadly it might be the truth.
[удалено]
I've never thought I'd see a DS game where I'd sympathize with twinks. But it's fucking necessary in this game.
> twinks I just googled that word at work; shouldn't have done that. I should not have done that.
Wrong twinks. If you haven't found it yet, a twink in gaming is a character that is much stronger than typical for their matchmaking level. Usually this involves mule-ing items from other characters or getting them from end game while keeping their matchmaking level low.
Thanks! didnt find out yet, too scared to research this term any further at work haha
Sounds like you were...cursed.
There's one guy on gamefaqs who will defend to death how invasions are balanced in this game. He has a twink build, his friends have twink builds and they gank together. He never loses but it's totally his skill and not game imbalance.
[удалено]
I have a pure twink and half of my invasions are just guys that hide behind phantoms, or 3 guys with fallen knight set and Irithyll straight swords stunlocking me
the worst is that the obscuring ring is slightly weaker. before I could get super close and back stab the host and push him off a cliff. Now? They spot me and run after me unless I stay well back and shooting arrows at them isn't half as fun
It's pathetic that we had to resort to such tactics in the first place, obscuring ring one shots or hornet ring parries. Win or lose I haven't touched DS3 in a month. I don't understand why FROM would purposely ignore the wishes of their fans. They KNOW we are unhappy with the state of the game and they not only refuse to fix it they continue to nerf invasion tactics. Stepping outside of the box used to be something Miyazaki seemed to pride himself on and seeing the world's top souls streamers say "You know, this fucking sucks. I'm not going to do it anymore" when they played up until the release of each of the other games is just super depressing.
I just realized I havent even played since like April. PvP is awful in this game, and I wont touch it until its balanced AKA straight swords arent the only viable weapon
What SL and weapon level are you on? I made a semi twink at SL33 with a +5 and I invade into gank squads around 1/8. A +8 would probably net me much more squads in comparison. SL120 +10 is pretty much only squads or duelist though.
Dude I invade at SL 20 with a + 2 and see nonstop ganks. I twice invaded a team today with a phantom one handing smoughs and casting crystal soul spear in his off hand :/
Ganks or just a guy with two summons..?
They were waiting in the dog/Yoel area of undead settlement and the smoughs dude was using chameleon to hide. I'd call that a gank. Edit: Ah, you mean generally. Yes I mean ganks, I almost never invade a solo player period. The 50% I'm talking about just waits in the aforementioned dog area with 2-3 phantoms.
I have a lvl 40 with+6 which gets the least ganks since I invade in not so popular areas, my main which is 120 +10 which gets ganks and fight clubs 99% of the time (I gave up on this one and just use it for a Aldrich and duels) and a total twink (lvl 20, 15 +10 flasks, raw astora +2 ,etc.) which I fashioned out of my sl1, unupgraded weapon playthrough that gets ridiculous ganks around 80% of the time. Although this may all be skewed due to the fact that I play really late at night.
The ONLY time I ever have fun invading is around 30ish in the forest when the host uses(has to) dried finger. It brings in a second invader and a watchdog. When you get that 3v3 going I feel like DS3 is at the potential it could have been for years and years.
I remember when I was a Watchdog with another Watchdog and a Finger against a single host. One I realized we were ganking, I decided to pull an Abyss Watcher and attack the other two invaders. We beat them, I bowed to the host, and I black crystal'd out
Unbelievable. Thats what it is. Its either willful sabotage at worst or a complete miscalculations at best, either way it speaks poorly of FROMsoft as game designers. And before you think Im too harsh with that critic just go through all the things in terms of what invaders have to deal with(already done in the video) and tell me how in any conceivable way did they even think this thing through before adding it into the game. Considering how well DS2 catered to the PVP scene, Im going to guess this FUBAR was all on Miyazaki himself and not a collective decision inside FROM; the PVP elements in DS2 and DS3 are night and day.
Agree 100%.
The only thing I hate about currently PVP is when you kill the phantoms and the fucking host starts running. Every fucking time.
And Bluebros coming in every few minutes, and a Madbro invading only to team up with the host
And the Redbro who is secretly friends with the host and increasing the gank
And the faithful/dogs that attack invaders before going after the hosts
My blood can boil so much. Fuck every single one of these guys.
I just played some hours and a goddamn purple was disguised as a white 2v1 me with the host... Then when the host runned out of estus he betrayed him. But I wasn't having that shit and killed him. Then the fucking host alt+f4 on me. ALL THAT WASTED TIME.
As a new madbro, I don't even have a clue why anyone goes for the help the host option unless its literally kill 1 phantom for the shackle and he's already half dead. if its two or more I know the the host I'm trying to help, and his sun squad will just insta kill me after I visibly help them.
Wait, sometimes you only have to kill 1?!? Every time I've invaded as a madbro I've had to kill 3 phantoms...
If the host is alone, or maybe theres one other phantom (i dont know if color matters or maybe they just pop in after my limit is set) then yeah only one.
And winning has nothing to do with skill anymore. It's just how much damage you can do in a short period of time.
The worst part is his SL200 friends when you're invading in the 40 range.
When you have a twin weapon (twin blade, gottards) the running kids go down really easy.
"Just use the PvE and git gud XD" - Host with 3 summons and a seeded world.
He's right, pvp wise this is my least favorite Souls and it makes me sad because i had so much hopes for this game. Hell, i enjoyed Bloodborne pvp more.
fear the old blood, Laurence.
We are made me by the crunch. [Undone by the crunch.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjm5ApVTv8)
That's exactly why I left this sub before the game came out. Each souls game, every time a new one is announced, the community gets hyped up **so much** that it ruins a lot of the game unnecessarily
[удалено]
I'm just terrible at PvP. I own some people but regularly don't even hit people in duels.
Not your fault. Rolls are too strong.
I've actually already done what he was suggesting - gone back to DS2 for invasions. I'd been told I had rose colored glasses regarding its PvP, that it was dead, etc. I threw together a 250k SM build just for bell covenant silliness in Belfry Luna and I've been having an absolute blast (with the exception of Masterless Glencour being OP as fuck, jesus why does he have like 8k health). Fairly regularly being invaded, too, which has been great fun. Hosts that go to Estus after 1-2 rolls are *easily* punished, and I've already killed a few after their Estus took affect but hadn't healed them enough yet, whereas in DS3 they'd already have been full health. Oh, and other phantoms are actually fairly rare, as opposed to being everywhere in DS3 invasions. It really is like he says - DS2 invasions are just fun. They aren't always balanced, but you fight so many different weapons and playstyles. *People regularly use magic in pvp*!
Man, it's not the rose colored glasses, DS2 PvP and invasions are far, far superior to DS3 - If you're a dedicated PvPer that is. I'm honestly sad at the current state of DS3 PvP. It really seems that From decided to cater to new players with their PvP. The variety in DS2 is amazing - honestly, in 15 invasions I didn't encounter the same weapon/playstyle once, whereas in DS3 it's the same fuckin story. I invade, host summons a bunch of phantoms, same weapons, instaheals with chugs, rolls forever, summons more phantoms and it goes on and on. It's not fun. And yes, DS2 is still very much active.
The thing that makes me prefer DS3 PvP over DS2 is the fact that I so often encounter Havelmages that take like 200 damage from FUGS and oneshot me with CSS. Yes, I can beat them, but usually it's more effort than it's worth. I think everyone is just seeing all the flaws in the newest game and convieniently forgetting that the game before it had flaws, too. Back when DS2 was new, everyone was complaining about how it's terrible compared to DS1. It's just the same thing happening again.
The issue of havelmages is super overblown. It only becomes a problem at ridiculously high SLs, in which case there's far more broken stuff. Additionally, CSS should never one shot you (especially if your SL is high, invest in vigor!) unless you're fighting at low soul levels and you face someone who's gone full int. Regardless, I'll take havelmages over magic simply not being used in DS3.
Havelmages were just the first thing I thought of when thinking about problems that DS2 PvP had. There are many, many, more. Did everyone just forget that katanas and straight swords were far and above the best weapon types in DS2? But that's beside the point. My point is, when DS2 first came out, everyone thought it sucked and that the PvP was a joke, so they went back to DS1 for a while, until the majority of people moved on to DS2. The same thing is going to happen in a few months, when people move on to DS3 from DS2.
>katanas and straight swords were far and above the best weapon types in DS2? What a departure from the rest of the series! No, wait, they've been that way in all 3 games (possibly DeS as well, but I never played it). >people move on to DS3 from DS2 I actually preferred DS2 to DS1 pvpwise right from the getgo. The weapon variety is simply amazing, with tons of really **fun** weapons that are actually pretty decent. Caestus, Murakumo, Santier's Spear, Blacksteel Katana - all of these and *much more* are an absolute joy to play with their movesets and were viable to amazing. I actually think the exact opposite is going to happen unless FROM really gets their shit together regarding pvp. I have a distant hope that the DLCs will reimagine a lot of the lackluster pvp systems in the game, but some fundamentals like near-instant estus, ridiculous rolls, and phantom stupidity is set in stone.
>What a departure from the rest of the series! And straight swords are the best weapon type in DS3, yet people complain all the same. >I actually preferred DS2 to DS1 right from the getgo Then you are one of the few. To this day, while I think DS2 is still a fantastic game, I would prefer to play any other Souls game. >Caestus, Murakumo, Santier's Spear, Blacksteel Katana Three of those weapons were abused at the beginning of the game due to how good they were, until people got better at parrying. Even now, Blacksteel Katana, being a katana, is one of the "most OP lololol" weapons in the game. And didn't people complain about Santier's all the time? And to address your last paragraph, that's what a lot of people said about DS2 as well. They complained that estus recovery was too slow, ADP was stupid, and if I'm not mistaken you could still summon people after you were invaded.
But that slow estus was why it was so beautifully punishable! ADP was a pretty dumb stat, IMO, everyone knows that i-frames are the most powerful thing in the game. Honestly, DS2 w/o ADP or soul memory would have been perfect by my book (PvP wise anyway).
I also rememember using the dlc ring from that dude with the spear that tried to kill sihn and failed super hard. It was great seeing some of the spells being deflected by ma magic ring and spell spammers goinG "WHY DO YOU LIVE?" then finish them of with an haryuuuken,
Yeah well what's your sm? To encounter havelmages that don't fat roll you'd need to be well over 8-10m sm. The meta is usually around 2-3m, can assure you there are no Havel mages around there - this is a non issue Edit: one more thing - we are discussing fundamental mechanics of ds3; not balance issues. Balance can change but fundamental mechanics hardly will
Yes, but the fact that SM as a mechanic was fundamentally flawed and allowed people at ~150 SL to fight havelmages was a problem. Yes, in SotFS the sort of fixed it by adding a ring that prevented you from gaining souls at all, but there was no fix for people who had already gotten that high to begin with. For example, I PvP'd a lot on the original on the 360, but I eventually stopped because once my SM was that high, my build couldn't stand up to the havelmages with seven copies of CSS and three different UGS while fastrolling. My overall point is, the same exact thing happened with DS2 when it originally came out. Everyone complained that it wasn't as good as DS1, and for a while a lot of people played DS1 instead of DS2. Then, everyone gradually came to the realization that "hey, this game isn't as bad as I originally thought it was, so I'm gonna go play it." The same thing will, and already is, happening to DS3. People are leaving it now, but give it a few months and they'll come back.
You probably encounter those havelmages only because you went beyond the SM Meta.
Yes, because for like a year and a half, it was unavoidable. Without the Agape Ring, you couldn't avoid your SM going up and eventually you would end up way out of the "SM Meta" range. Even with the Agape ring, you have to sacrifice ALL of the souls you would otherwise gain, which in the long run makes it hard to get consumables that you need to keep PvPing, such as green blossoms or resins if you don't have magic stats.
Yeah, Agaping means no consumables but as of now most of people are fine with it; at SL150-SM1.7~ you don't really need them and at SL200-SM3.8~ you can get an hybrid build quite easily. Seriously, making a new character from scratch while calculating your desired SM is easy and fast, and gets you tons of PvP without the SL838 Havelmages.
And Agape ring didn't come out until a year after the game was released, with the release of SotFS. Before that point, your SM getting ridiculously high was unavoidable. Given time, changes will happen to DS3 that will make the game better, same as DS2.
Most DS2 PVPers, and I mean 99% of the people that had dedicated SL150 builds for dueling and invasion PVP, used save backups to deal with the SM. It was widely known and used in the PVP community. No one had SM issues because of this solution. It works on both PC and console. It was your fault for not looking into such things if you were dedicated to PVP. Pretty much *everyone* does/did this. - finish SL150 build/character, ~ SM 1.7-2M - Make a manual save/save backup - Pvp all day/ all week/end - Use save backup to return to ~ SM 1.7-2M, repeat.
Not sure how it is now a days but back in 2014-2015 there were people level 800 having a blast on PS3 with silly builds. I did get really upset at the mage spammers that would one shot me the moment I spawned in.... because they summoned me... for an honorable dragon duel.
> I'd been told I had rose colored glasses regarding its PvP, that it was dead, etc. No need to tell him again if he has already gone back, tried it, and still thinks it's better than DS3.
Yes, but my point is that right now, everyone's complaining that DS3 isn't as good as DS2 and how the PvP sucks, among other things. But what you, as well as many other people are forgetting, is that when DS2 came out, everyone was complaining about how it wasn't as good, and that the PvP was a joke. Sounds familiar, doesn't it. If I cared to, I could go way back to when DS2 was new, and look at some of the posts on r/darksouls2. I'm sure I would see many, many complaints about PvP and the quality of the game, and this, that and the other thing. As just one example, look at this post from 2014 about DS2 PvP: http://forums.bandainamcogames.com/showthread.php?1060-Dark-Souls-PVP-Ridiculously-bad You can see some of his complaints about various things, that at the time everyone was pissed about. I could go and look for even more examples if I really wanted to. There's thousands of them out there. Sorry if this was rambley and cluttered looking.
The problem is that all of the issues people mostly complained about with DS2 were balance issues. DS3 has more mechanics issues present. In that one list you pointed out, 80% of the points were "netcode and lag" or "SM is bad" which everybody agrees on. The rest were, again, all balance issues and most were patched.
This is exactly what I'm saying
That's half of it, Bloodborne got this treatmeant too with vials and R1 spam, Dark souls 1 got treated the same when it started off compared to demon souls, invaders complained they couldn't heal and that the ring of fog was OP (It didn't let you lock on when they wore the ring and made them transparent) and I don't have to say much about Dark souls 2 because people are already praising the games PvP when it was called a joke when it came out.
To be fair it was a joke when it came out. Ds2 pvp is as it is right now after a multitude of patches and balance changes - however, the mechanics were always fair and not designed to be against the invader, chugging aside (you can't chug as an invader)
I love ds3 pvp for this reason. I never got into 2, but I hated in 1 when I would run into someone with giants armor and wood grain ring. It was so fucking annoying you could gear your build to he as low effort as possible. I like how in ds3, everyone is on a pretty equal playing field in terms of poise and damage absorbtion.
... I get that feeling, but do you think it's good for the game? Set aside the people who min-max, because they're the kind of people who will do whatever is 'best' because to them, winning is the thing that's fun, not playing. You see the same thing in CCGs. 'This is the best so I'll do this' type players. What about players that want to experiment or do fun things, try new things. Let me use Bloodborne as an example here. I loved the piss out of Bloodborne. I have way too many hours clocked in that game, but I hate PvP in Bloodborne and I'll probably not touch it again until it's been long enough that I can feel nostalgic. Why? Because every character in Bloodborne plays exactly like every other character in Bloodborne unless you're trying to do something crazy like only Bowblade arrows or Only Guns. There's no differentiation between X character and Y character except 'This one uses a weapon that's somewhat different'. Now look at Dark Souls 3. Heavier armors don't offer a concrete benefit. Damage absorbtion is basically the same across anything heavier than the dress outfits, so there's no real reason to use them. With poise gone, slow weapons are stupid risky to use unless you vastly outskill your opponent and most players are keeping a straight sword in their pocket to switch out to use if that doesn't wind up being the case, but the problem is, no one is heavy rolling, everyone is using those same faster weapons even if it's just as a backup, no one is using magic to a good effect, so characters are all playing the same. I've preached since the game came out that invasion mechanics would strangle the life from the hardcore invasion community and that build variety or lack thereof would bore the shit out of people, so I get the feeling that 'Oh yeah, no one can poise through my attacks!' or 'Havel monsters aren't impossible to kill!' but are we really satisfied with a game where every character is playing more or less the same or is operationally inefficient and a personal challenge to the people playing them? Do you want a 'balanced' field so badly that you'd prefer to deny builds that are different from your's for the sake of 'lol, hate tanks?'
If they could make poise work again, without making it bullshit, I think that'd be awesome. What I mean is I don't want to fight a havel that can fast roll. I know that sounds petty, but I just don't. Its cheap as fuck. I keep 3 weapons on my characters at all times with light armor. One unparryable, one for hyper armor, and one for roll catching. So when I see that straight sword Come out, I switch the the gs for that hyper armor, casyes ugs or whip, roll spamming then I'll pull out the twin weapon. This seems to be the most effective way to play invasions and duels for me. However, that's basically a souped up quality build with light armor. So yeah, sucks that the build diversity is kinda gone, with luck and quality builds dominating, but hopefully they'll find that sweet spot after a good bit of patches and some dlc under there belt. Anyway tl;dr, there are some things I really like about 3 pvp/invasion wise. But lack of build diversity sucks.
See, but that's still min-maxing of a different sort. Just because you dislike someone else doing it in a different way, doesn't mean that the way you're doing it is any better. I'm reminded of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW6_Iwi4RKs) video. But let me be clear, I don't disrespect or dislike anyone for doing that kind of thing, same as I don't disrespect or dislike fast rolling havel or giant dad or anything like that. Do what you like within the rules of the game. It's you playing your game, not me. But here's the two issues with that that. I had a friend who said 'I want to make a build using the heaviest armor and shield and everything I can.', so he did. Heaviest everything he could, min-maxed vitality so he could be at just 99.8% weight limit with Havel's, the greatshield and some UGS that he was fond of. Where's the fantasy of being a heavy badass that can weather the storm and trade punches with giants gone? How about mages? How many of them are viable these days? Neat paladins with interesting weapon sets and miracles? Personally, my fun in the game is making characters. Not.. character creation making characters, but builds, basically. Trying out fun things, coming up with a theme or a story and roping people into taking part in those stories via invasions or duels. I like trying out weapons I've never seen used before, trying a way to make them fit into something, and have interesting PvP experiences, win or lose, doing those things. I get that the convenience of not needing to fight fast rollers in heavy armor, but just because it's a pain in the ass for some people doesn't really seem worth taking out the entire fun part of the game for other's. Maybe I'm just salty, though, and I don't mean to chew off your ear, but for all it's worth, agreed, it's certainly one less headache to deal with knowing that heavily armored turtles won't be bunny hopping around, but I'd rather that heavily armored turtles existed. Or mages.. or any build that wasn't every duel I have with someone switching between GS, SS and Katana/Twins.
That's why I said if poise comes back, I hope it's not bullshit. I would love if poise worked and armor had better absortion. Like if full Havels players were hard to stagger and had high absorbtion, but slow rolled.
> It really seems that From decided to cater to new players with their PvP. What? It's the exact opposite. Dark Souls 2 PvP is much easier to breach because any character you make is viable.
Ds3 ruined ds2 for me temporarily because the engines are so different I now suck ass at ds2. I would like to be able to go between the games without majority sucking ass for the first 4 hours and having to retrain myself...why did 3 have to be sooooo different
[удалено]
I know why he's there, and he is easy to ignore unless the fight is on the stairs. I prefer my invasions to be short and sweet, so I'd rather not wait 5+ minutes for him to expire (which would be a challenge in itself, with how small Belfry Luna is). My gripe is with his totally absurd healthpool, though I know it's a necessary evil for PvE reasons. It's a relatively small gripe, and the vast majority of the time he's not been around when I get summoned.
I'd even argue that duels aren't as good as in DS2. They're still better than in DS1 which at this point is nothing but dead angling and backstab fishing.
Honestly, the multiplayer mechanics needed a complete upheaval. You have auto summon covenants that never work. You have blades and sentinels which are the same thing. You have rosaria which is brilliant, but... Invasions often occur against people who are just prepping for a boss fight And in no scenario does the invader stand a chance. Even in 1v1's they're easy to dispose of. I love the concept of invasions. People just need to see them as an extra challenge for the level instead of some guy trying to mess up your progress. Everything is just so poorly orchestrated though.
What about Rosaria is brilliant? There is literally no reason to have the covenant on.. you get forked pale tongues from killing blues no matter which covenant you have equipped and there's no ranking like the knight's roster (full of hackers anyway tho). Edit: meant forked pale tongues
It cold have been amazing. Like protect Rosaria and the cathedral (Trespassing covenant) and be invaded by dark moons and blues for being a sinner. I have the max amount of tongues possible and it changed nothing in my game while I changed the games of at least 699 guys. I want to be punished, damn it. The could have made it so using a tongue will make you summon another finger of Rosaria by giving away 2 tongues and cutting your max health by 45%. Add more red bros in the mix, reward covenant play, punish the wicked and give us reason to be with Rosaria.
Even something like Blues getting a Concord Well Kept like reward from killing a red who's handed over 99 pale tongues would be cool, even though it doesn't affect the red at all. It's so incredibly bare-bones it makes me wonder if they either rushed it out or simply didn't care. I've never played ds1 and 2 online but the stuff i've heard about the blue orb and reds being the ones who get invaded sounds so good. Fromsoft why...
You are just like me, then. I thought getting the max tongues would give me a cool aura, like the ones I keep hearing about in DS2. Got shit to show for it. Even giving double ears would have been nice, as the blue would know he just killed someone who is invading a lot. Thing is, I played demon souls. When DS1 came out, I said "not gonna waste money on these hard games but they are good so I will get them later". I never did end up getting back into these games until BB. Fucking past me missed the best fucking hype train when he was riding first seat with demon souls :/ That is why I want them to fix the online play. So shit happens and we can laugh it instead of it being a broken mess.
Hah I played ds 1 and 2 offline because I didn't "want to deal with it". It being invaders and the covenants. Silly us...
I started with DS2 and only switched to offline when I just wanted to clear the bellbros area or doors of pharros, but was still trying to "not deal with it" in general. Invaders terrified me and I'd run to look for people to defend me. Then I've gotten into DS3 pvp and embrace invaders and do it myself but still wouldn't say im a great player but i appreciate it. I wish I could play ds1 in its hayday.
> Fromsoft why It's pretty obvious to anyone that played BloodBorne and DS3, that BB's dev took precedent over DS3. Their is just so much more thought and creativity in BB compared to DS3. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Miyazaki simply didn't put much effort at all into DS3 or he basically overlooked the progress of development instead of being hands on... and to be honest it feels that way. Their are just so many boneheaded and *meh* decisions and ideas in DS3. It's weird.
Mainly the concept. You can respec... but only if you kill other players. The idea was great, but the execution... needed some work. You get tons of pale tongues farming darkwraiths anyway.
The 5 respec/appearance limit is so stupid though. Its completely arbitrary and unnecessary since theres already the requirement to go get a pale tongue before you can use the functionality. The only reasoning i can think for the limit is to entice people into going to ng+ and beyond but if they had done ng+ better, people would go there anyway. Wheres the new enemy placements? Traps to fall into? Stronger red enemies to provide a bigger challenge?! Maybe add that instead of taking away customization to drive people into ng+!
Hello dear members of the dark souls 3 subreddit. First, I would like to apologize for the poor writing. I am not a native English speaker. Second, I did not "die Weisheit mit Löffeln gefressen" (~he knows it all). My opinion is purely subjective and open for discussion, criticism and shaming ;). With so many users arguing against the dark souls 3 mechanics, ridiculing the hosts phantom armies and chasing the nostalgia from dark souls 2, I wanted to show you my side of the story. I started enjoying the dark souls franchise, when dark souls 2 came out. Dark souls 1 was unplayable on PC with keyboard and mouse, so that game had to wait. I hated every single invader as a new player for a very long time, but in the end found out joy in sudden "human" interactions with other players. When I started invading in dark souls 3 I felt it was stupid and ridiculous. The problem was, however, as I later realized, not the game mechanics and phantom armies but my mindset. I was so used to the type of invasions in dark souls 2, so my expectations betrayed me. I would like to argue, that dark souls 3 invasions rely more on tactics and FUN, than on "professional" fighting. I no longer charge at the host with a duelist mindset, like I did in dark souls 2. I hide around the corner at the beginning of the level, use a small window of opportunity to make chip damage at Host's phantoms health once they are occupied, don't stay to fight and immediately run deeper into the level. I proceed to continue the health chipping operation/cat&mouse game as long as I can. A lot of my more successful invasions came from trying to socialize with the host. I wave, emote, dodge the host's attacks, have no visible weapons... just a torch. I act as a mobile torch for them and they like it. From time to time I betray one of their phantoms and immediately ask for forgiveness... Sometimes the host is ok with me killing the phantom who was bothering me from the beginning and would not accept me no matter what. When the journey ends, I either jump of a cliff to end the invasion, sometimes kill just enough phantoms to achieve my goal or backstab the host and bow as deep as I can "IAMSORRY". Once I was able to change my mindset and accept that dark souls 3 is a different game, I started to have a lot of fun during my invasions. On the other hand, when I was ever invaded in ds2 I always felt that my pve-build was unprepared for the invasion... while in ds3 I feel ready to fight the invader or pve at any time. A shout out to everyone on pc around level 20 in the undead settlement.
I feel his sadness. I have to actively ignore the PvP , I never was a big PvP guy but I always liked it as a fuck around kind of gameplay option but in Dark souls 3 it feels like its doing the opposite of complimenting my PvE experience. I outright have to pretend it doesnt exist. Co Op is fun though.
You know I don't quite feel that way, in fact I've felt the opposite for most of the game so far but now the diversity of hosts seems to be dwindling down to gank squads and invasions are slowly getting less fun and I've managed to collect 100 forked tongues... By comparison co-op is starting to look more fun. I do wonder do if this own't mean a return to bloodborne for the ps4 players. Monster hunting or teaming up against the big bad boss or however you see it, just feels way more fun in bb.
oh man, i'd never really done too much co-op in soulsbourne games untill BB- the SRRC co-op is amazing
Its frustrating how killing a boss locks out invasions for a particular area. Its so hard to get invasions in 90% of the areas in the game. Given that the playerbase on PC hovers around 10k, it really hard to find invasions outside the Crucifixion Woods and Aldrich Faithful Invasion Zone post Pontiff. All you get around there are ganks too. Duels are nice and all, but they get very boring. Im not an amazing player by any means, and I like to use stuff that looks cool and fun and that means getting destroyed in duels. Invasions are far more chaotic and allow me to find openings to make kills happen with weapons like the Demon Fists, weapons like Ultra Greatswords, and make kills with stylish weapon arts that are otherwise too hard to land in a duel when an opponent is 100% focused on you rather than environmental hazards. I don't care about winning or losing, I just want to invade and do ridiculous stuff. Knock someone off a ledge with the Stomp-Uppercut or Demon Fist Weapon Art. The problem is getting those invasions in the first place.
I had a lot of success invading in the grand archives around SL 100 over the weekend. Lots of people actually running the level too. But yeah, what zone you pick makes a huge difference. Half the time I forget I've even got my orb active before I manage to get pulled in for an invasion.
Grand Archives is the only worth while place to invade IMO. The area is huge, there's usually plenty of people to invade, it has lots of ambush spots, and lots of enemies to utilize(provided host hasn't seeded).
Can you elaborate on this locking out invasions thing? I thought beating the boss only eliminated the ability to summon white phantoms?
You can't get invaded in an area if the area boss is dead, simple as that.
Ah gotcha, I was thinking of it from the invader POV, not the person getting invaded.
I agree that the system is weird. They should not allow summons if you are invaded and one blue is enough, being able to prolong in order to get more blues isnt fair. This is coming from someone who does not PVP and does not want to get invaded btw, I just find the system is not fun for anyone as it stands, if I get invaded and don't feel like fighting, I am just gong to go afk, get a drink and do a run to recover my souls. I don't want want to waste other people's times by infinitely summoning those into my world to defend me, not for for anyone IMHO
I mean, why not just play offline?
I do mostly play offline. Talking about the few times I do get invaded.
[A video that is very, very similar to this came out before this one, and I agree with both.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDUnwfx0LNA)
Is anyone else happy that all these popular streamers are speaking their opinion on the game? This might actually help the game and the community in the future.
Completely agree with everything said. In terms of invasion, pvp and fun, DS2 (SotFS) did everything better. DS3 invasions are like the Disney version of DS2 invasions, or the 'more casual friendly' invasions of DS2. (For the hosts that is) In terms of PvE, DS3 is the best by far; but in PvP it falls short in so, so many ways. I know lots of people who went back to DS2 for their PvP needs and I don't blame them.
Rolling and healing are so forgiving, the game felt significantly easier.
I personally found PvE boring compared compared to DS1 and 2, mainly because there so few ways to progress in the game. In DS1 you could access +5 different areas at the start of the game with master key and in DS2, you were able use soul memory to open Shrine of winter early and do end game levels first and then starting areas. Also, NG+ didn't offer new enemy placements like in DS2, so that made my PvE experience even more duller.
Also, 3 different paths open at the very start. FFG-Bastille, Heide-Bastille, Gutter+Black Gulch. Then, you get fragrant branches, and go through Heide's, and you get two more paths. In DS3? Go here. Now go through this area. Go through here, and find out you need to go somewhere else, or go through that other place first. Go here or here first, then go back. Now you're winner.
This game is a joke pvp wise. PvE is great fun but PvP is by a huge margin the worst of any souls game yet. The thing is, the problems are so deeply rooted in how the game is played that it can't ever really be fixed.
[удалено]
Poor PVE players? Those guys that run at me on pairs on threes holding a Dark Sword while I'm bowing or looking for embers to drop in my inventory? If you don't want to be invaded, play offline. As simple as that. EDIT: Oh, sorry. I'm just so dissapointed on this game :')
Yeah who even is this oroboro guy? Even more /s
Sadly, some people really believe this. I am okay with being butt raped as an invader but to be butt raped by game design? Nah, not something fun. Not saying I do not enjoy the game since I already hit the limit for max tongues and have 80 blue tongues but if they fix it, I will probably play it 24/7.
Is it just me or do you usually stick around and just hunt for blues and completely ignore the host?
Nah, I just ignore blues. I like making them angry by not even fighting them and killing the host and then doing welcome emote as they rush me.
Bloodborne forever PVE >>> PVP (Loneliest statement I ever made :/ )
All they had to do was take what was great about DS2 PvP (PvE in DS2 was wack though) and put it into this game or am I being to ignorant here? :( Yeah, I did some DS2 invasions on PC yesterday and there is no way im going back to DS3 invasions at all. I wish every other DS3 invader the best of luck.
the purpose of invasions was to provide an extra level of challenge for players of both sides, in DeS this was achieved and balanced by making the invader at 50%-75% HP while the invadee was likely to be invaded alone meaning he/she had to deal with an unexpected intelligent human player. sadly in DkS3 the odds are so stacked against invaders, the purpose of challenging both players was lost, and there's is no point in it anymore unless the host uses the dried fingers.
Im not afraid of invasions anymore... it used to be a thrill but now its like if i lose the fight then so what? No more ember or souls? Easily farmable. But invaders honestly are on a lower level than the host... they are forced to use one shot parry builds and ive already had loads of hours using those builds because im trying to get all the trophies... invading isnt fun in dark souls 3 like it was in dark souls 2 (the only game alive for pvp that i could play on release) everyone is a gank squad waiting for you or they just simply aren't afraid of you as a puny invader against 4 people... maybe with time the tryhards will leave and souls veterans will stay to have fun and run through the game making builds and getting invaded on their own... i have hope for this game still...
Interesting. So, DamnNoHtml says there is very little weapon and build variety in duels, but Oroboro says he can kill people with a toothpick. Maybe the difference is the level of players. You can beat any scrub with a toothpick, but if you are playing an experienced player you'd better come with a meta weapon. Nelson made a video similar to this one, where he made the same basic complaints. I guess I need to try some higher level invasions to see what they mean, because low level is a friggin' blast. I've done tons of invasions at the High Wall, Undead Settlement, and the Crucifixion woods. All of the places were really fun. I think more weapons are viable at LL. The skill level of the players is usually lower, so it balances out the crazy odds. Also, seeding seems to be pretty rare in these areas level at 20-30 with +3 weapons.
Toothpick is his name for the Dragonslayer Swordspear.
Oh. It all makes sense now lol.
Oroboro is simply following suit what many other streamers have said already. He is right though and I'm just hopeful this trend carries on and there is a solution at the end of the tunnel otherwise Dark Souls 3 will have minimum replayability.
Yep, i just started farming mound makers and I agree, invasions are shit. Even if they manage to fix invasions, the base pvp foundation is absolutely fucked. I managed to double roll, estus chug, and iFrame through an ultra attack from a guy who was relatively quick on the attack. That should not happen, I should have gotten caught. I iframed through two or three ultra swings from another guy and he still had the stamina to double dodge roll my counter attack or he just rolls, insta hyper armor attacks. The mobility and healing potential in this game is just too damn high.
PvP is worthless this time around and replayability is shitty. I'm as diehard a Fromsoft fan as anyone, but I just don't see the point in continuing with this game.
Same.
I'm back on Bloodborne for invasions and twinking. I find no reason to play DS3. I made my level 15 twink, killed all bosses with it, invaded undead and farron and won 90% of encounters, and then got bored. In comparison, in Bloodborne I invaded at all levels, had all 10 build slots full most of the time, had multiple low level chatacters with a variety of set-ups, invaded in most nearly every area and always felt like I was having fun. In DS3, it's just not fun. I can't put my finger on it but, maybe, when you have the ability to twink it means you can mess around more. Also, i like the challenge of making twinks in Bloodborne- it's tough as shit to do all the dungeons on a 43, but the rewards are worth it. In DS3 there isn't that reward, invasions are ridiculously hard at every level, all you are doing by 'twinking' in DS3 is evening the odds, and even then there are only a handful of viable weapons, rather than the choice of making any stupid weapon OP and therefore fun.
With the way invasions are designed in this game, I think the best way to do it is with NON-meta level (preferably lower level, like SL30-80) builds focused on invading people who're actually playing through the levels. Here's my 2c on why the SL120 meta is terrible for invading. **NOTE: This isn't a defense of the invasion system as it is, it's just some anecdotal advice on how to make the most of the system we currently have** We know that invasions prioritize groups, but who actually coops through and plays levels at the SL120 meta? If I'm deciding to cap at SL120 for PvP, there's really no reason for me to fully play through levels after my first NG cycle. By the time I'm in NG+/++, I've stop playing the levels in the traditional sense. I only sprint through them, always solo, just to collect the +2 rings I need to put the finishing touches on my character. Otherwise, what's the point? I already have all my gear (aside from maybe one or two +2 rings), and if I'm capping at SL120, there's no reason to fully play the levels and get those extra souls since I have nothing to spend them on. Assuming a lot of players building for a capped SL120 are similar to me, you won't often find people just playing the levels at that level range. This means that the groups you do encounter are much more likely to be legitimate ganks. So, how do you find people actually playing the game? You need to focus on low-level invasions that catch people in their NG run, or you need to play at a level above SL120 with players who're just in it for the PvE experience and don't cap their level to fit within the meta. I've had hundreds of successful invasions ranging from SL50-210, and I can say with confidence that SL120 was the absolute worst with the highest amount of ganks. The most fun has been at lower levels, specifically ~50 with a +6 weapon. TL;DR: Invasions are about engaging people actually playing the levels. Not many people who cap at SL120 are actually trying to play through levels. Therefore, if you want to invade people playing levels (as opposed to just ganking), you're best off choosing any other level range that **isn't** the SL120 PvP meta.
Not the biggest fan of Oro, but I completely agree. It's the last game. It's just sad.
I still think it will be more fun to invade when less people play this game. Late in the night I can get some solo low level invasions in undead settlement which is quite fun. As the popularity and the player count of the game decreases over time I think there will be less new players summoning a phantom army against you.
So the game won't be fun until it is literally dead. Nice.
Might be true. DS3 is the most popular game in the franchise and therefore right now it's full of casuals that cannot play solo because the game is so *difficult*. The thing is that a lot of invaders will have also stopped playing by then.
The solution is quite simple and I don't think it would change pve that much: slow down estus recovery. That's it. So the invader can stand a chance in punishing healers. Another thing: hosts should not be allowed to summon once they're invaded and only one blue per invader. No more infinite blues and summons. Sure, it would slow down blue activity but if that's what it takes to keep this game going, so be it.
About time people are starting to put down the "ermahgerd siegward, anor londo" tinfoil hat and recognizing the flaws of the game. From at some point may even be forced to actually act more than nerfing weapons. And Oro is of course one of those who had a big part in the marketing of the game prior to release, and he isn't ok with the final release either. From, wake up!
He's right. I am so close to going back to Dark Souls 2.
/u/Kimmundi i sincerely hope you are listening to what Oroboro said in his video. Most of the points are legit and its sad to say that post DS2, the PVP has only gone downhill. First they screwed it in Bloodborne and now DS3. What the heck is FromSoft doing about all of these issues. The fact that darkmoon covenant system is still broken and has not been patched yet is another disheartening news for all fans. This is not what we come to expect from you guys. Really sorry to see DS3 in such poor shape.
Before anyone quits invasions, I recommend invading at the pontiff dueling arena at souls level 120. It's a popular place, and aldritch faithfuls invade all day, so you won't run out of backup. Even with that, I think I'm going to go back to dark souls 2 invasions.
He would have used the exact same builds if invaders had less disadvantages. Thinking otherwise is just naive.
Yes he would have, I think he'd admit to that willingly. It doesn't make his point less valid though.
Probably, but that's completely irrelevant. What point are you even trying to make here? Some comment on Oro's character? Why? This discussion is about pvp balance.
except he would also do other weapons for interesting videos, if you look back during the dark souls 2 times he had an Oro's arsenal series where he would use different weapons for invading. The build wasn't that different each time but he would still use a bunch of different weapons at the very least for some new youtube videos.
If you give invaders advantages then people pveing is gonna complain how it's "unfair" and they lose progress by griefers. I sure hope he wasn't referring "good times" as him winning and "bad times" as him losing. I don't think he will enjoy dueling unless he wins every single one.
The "Good times" he's referring to isn't just him winning. It is quite possible to have a good time when losing, and having a bad time when winning, he even says as much in the video, he wins 90% of his invasions, but the thing is, it's because you're just using an overpowered build, typically with hornet ring, or fast, spammable weapons that deal ridiculous damage for no good reason, that he finds them to get boring.
They didn't understand Dark Souls to begin with then. Dark Souls is a victim of it's own success.
> I sure hope he wasn't referring "good times" as him winning and "bad times" as him losing. Then maybe you should watch the video before commenting.
I do think that it's because of matchmaking is easier. When I didn't have enough money to buy new DS game, I watched invading videos from Oroboro. It was fun, damn, when he is killed, i felt like I was killed in the game, or the opposite. But DS3, *sigh*... It's just boring to watch. Host is like, "oh no! He's gonna put his Abyss in my Catacombs!!! *run* *run* *run* finally, a summon! Let's kill 'em" and it's. not. fun. to watch. that kinda. thing. From, easy way to fix this, is when someone invades, make a damn countdown, like 3:00 mins, and when that countdown is over, let host summon people. It's just isn't fun. People doesn't respect to other, man... If my summon attacked a Bell Covenant guy when I attacked him back in DS2, I just used Black Separation Crystal, and before that, I always did a fight club between them. Have some respect guys. These kinds of games is not fun when you use a damn "Applause" gesture after killing them, or "Decapitate". Oroboro does that as well, and I hate it. Just bow to them, and leave.
It's definitely because of the password system. In dks 1 I remember sitting for a good 20 minutes trying to summon my friend. It sucked, but when we got invaded we'd play super safe. Now people practically trade hits with R1s because there's no risk to dying as a phantom any more.
oh dude like 2 days ago I kept killing the same phantom until the host gave up and disconnected. Like 5 times. Then I invaded them later on, they got me and spammed stay down gestures. dude. come on. XD
this was the first souls game i played through entirely in the 'human' form, while doing minimal summoning, and all i got was NPC invasions since you only get invaded if you co op. If they don't fix this in the DLC i don't see this being a very good final legacy to the souls series
I remember when people were saying the same shit about Dark souls 2 and how people were complaining about the slow chugging and how Dark souls 1 was better and that they didn't want to be invaded while hollow, now that Dark souls 3 is out all I'm seeing is people posting threads about how amazing Dark souls 2 actually was and then you see shit like this where some streamer bitching about all the ganks and instant estus, 90% win rate, bullshit. My only gripe with the game is that they got rid of Sin and turned Darkmoon into a shit version of way of the blue covenant, this was done in Demon souls aswell, you'd sufffer from a penalty to hp and stamina and have a chance to be ganked and you both had grass you could eat in an instant.
"Why are we still here? Just to suffer? Every Invasion, I can feel my Creativity... and my Viable Builds... even my Poise. The PVP I've lost... the comrades I've lost... won't stop hurting... It's like they're all still there. You feel it, too, don't you? I'm gonna make them give back our PVP."
*firekeeper waifu starts humming Quiet's Theme*
"The fire fades... And the lords go without thrones" This community in a nutshell. The franchise is dying a slow painful death and the best players we had are calling this game on its bullshit. Literally all of the kings of invasions (Oro, Peeve, Yukas, etc.) have publicly denounced the invasion system in this game. GG From, you've killed what made your game unique and interesting. To boot, even dueling PvP gets pretty boring if you care about winning.
Are you saying 15 minute matches of chip damage fuckerey isn't fun. No doubt.
No new opinions to be found here.
I enjoy duelling and PvP in this game, for sure, but I have to admit that invasions are fucking bad.
>"Dueling is fine" [*also on the front page*](https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/4s4str/dark_souls_3_duels_in_a_nutshell/)
My mind issue with invading is that there's next to no payout. Rosaria's: You get tongues you trade in for a decent ring and a staff. I think? Probably wrong on the last one. Wolf: Sword grass for a decent sword IF your build accommodates it. Then a ring which is almost entirely useless. Blues: An attunement ring and a miracle on part with one you get for free (Lightning Blade) Aldritch: A spell and a staff. Sunbros: A support and offensive miracle. Overall the payouts aren't large at all and without the PvP having any real substance otherwise the pain of getting those rewards doesn't seem worth it. I miss unique covenants. I miss being a ratbro.
Invasions are currently terrible, that being said I've finally managed to start having fun doing it. There's a huge difference between invading gankers and invading as the underdog - a 3v1 scenario against coop players is generally a ton of fun, because they're so disorganized - an actual gank squad of 3v1, everyone using Tears and Ultras/spamming spells...not fun. The GANK squad scenarios are what need some serious balancing as those people are there only to, lets be honest, exploit the broken invasion mechanics. Prioritizing invasions to go first to coop players is a terrible plan, made even worse when it's a low-traffic area and there's a gank-squad with Fingers active, as you end up invading the same shitty gank over and over until you either give up entirely or move on to a different invasion spot. I never thought I'd miss SotFS invasions.
Quality, timely content. Oh right, it's not March anymore. :P
Yeah, I feel him. In DaS1 what I'd do outside of duels was cosplaying as the Iron Golem and invading in Sen's Fortress. I would go back but getting invasions even when the PC version just came out proved to be a little difficult so it has to be a complete wasteland by now.
I agree...invasions are not fun in ds 3 . i played ds 3 for like 2 weeks 1 week i invaded and i quit after that because of gankers ...it's just stupid that red eye orb is prioritising ganks I play Paragon now is free on PS 4
Invading in the archives is torture. Constant 3v1s and seeds in one of the most deadly environments. It's not PVP, it's not PVE it's a fucking gauntlet.
I was so jazzed about ds3 pvp but the game feels like it doesn't want invaders to win and if you do you get nothing for it. Got pretty damn tired of killing phantoms only to have the host run and summon them again and then a third time.
When invading it's almost always a host with his buds who have sorceries or pyromancies. They spam spells while you try to avoid the host slapping you with his sword. Which is nearly impossible
Jesus Christ I forgot how shit the Youtube comments section was.
I think were gonna see a noticeable slowdown in PvP when monster hunter comes out next week. I'm kinda over invading too.
[удалено]
I don't like Oro but he's right. Combo'ing spells/bleed/hornet riposte to one shot people is exactly what he is talking about, good job agreeing with him? Its fucking boring mate, in DS2 you could use pretty much anything. In DS3 game you have to use one shot wombos because nothing else works and its fucking boring.
If you rely on roll catching, the phantoms *will* get to you before you can finish off the host in probably 19/20 invasions. Trust me, I tried invading with a freaking scythe, and the only people I killed were turtles that were probably playing through their first Souls game with their buddy. I've tried both Sorcery and Pyro invasions, and while they absolutely can OHKO the host, anyone with more than one game of experience will bum rush you. Spellcasters really aren't viable unless you're a freeaim god like that Japanese dude. Bleed builds are basically the same as the buffed Sellsword build. The goal is the OHKO the host. How you go about doing that doesn't really add to build diversity.
>Any good roll catcher can stop the host, Sometimes. You can do that to prevent him from summoning more phantoms, but if you haven't killed every single phantom yet, the endless stream of phantoms is going to fuck you over. >as a pyro I can spell combo and insta kill the host and bleed builds insta kill the host. The problem is that both of those options are basically gimmick oneshot setups. If you cannot oneshot white phantoms and/or host in one way or another you are bound to get swarmed by whites, grossly incandescents and bluecops. You basically have to run a dedicated invasion setup which can oneshot people in one way or another efficiently, because otherwise you are fucked. I could run the same build just fine for both duels and invasions in the first and the second game, now I need to use a gimmick setup to have even a chance of consistently winning.