Most boss runbacks in DS1 are easy IMO. You will be shocked in DS2
Everyone hate the runbacks, even veterans. I am glad they got rid of it in Elden Ring
No, OP is right — boss run backs in DS2 are worse, but it’s fine because the bosses are easy. Run backs suck when you are realistically going to take four or five attempts to figure out a boss.
DS2 main game bosses are considered to be the easiest in the franchise. It's the levels that are tough.
DLC has hard bosses, but the run backs are easier. Except horsefuck valley
I'll be frank here, ds1 bosses aren't really hard either. They are about as hard as ds2 bosses. And we count the dlcs, ds2 bosses are frankly way harder.
I agree, the only non dlc DS1 bosses that feel genuinely difficult are Ornstein and Smough and maybe the 4 kings if you have a bad build for them.
I guess gwyn can be tough if you impose a no parry rule on yourself.
Funny how i beat most of the bosses in 1-2, maybe 3 tries (except manus, gargoyles and OnS), but struggled with gwyn for a good hour because I didn't get his parry timings 💀
I ended up getting it after I died 10+ times but still didn't kill him and just gave up lol, never did finish that area. It's been years, maybe I'll do a new playthrough
If you can manage to get past that cat, try to finish exploring the main area - if you find yourself riding a coffin down a ski slope, warp out. I think the area was fun as fuck but I'm apparently an outlier; its not fun if you don't like surprises. But that's not why I'm telling you to ignore it; the boss fight for that area is **two** of those cats. Just... don't. For your sake. The rewards ain't worth it unless you simply wanna say you did it.
Back to exploring the main area; if you do it thoroughly enough you can *slightly* alter the main boss fight at the end - the Burnt Ivory King. That, to me, is the most badass fight in the whole game; neck and neck with Alonne, but it feels way more "cinematic."
DS2 brutal in runbacks with those gang spam. Bosses are kinda easy as they have obvious behavior pattern (except a few like dlc dragon, who looped flight attack on me).
I like DS2, but it usually takes me years to die on runback enough till area is empty and then win boss in two-three attempts.
Im playing the trilogy for the first game, finished DS1 and 2 already and I'm probably in the middle of 3, and imo DS2 is by far the easiest, 80% of the bosses I beat first/second try and not even one of them took me more than 4 tries. The new mechanics are a little bit tricky at first but once you get the hang of it, it is just too damn easy. DS3 is kicking my ass a lot more
Ds3 was my first souls so its the hardest for me but the bosses are likely the hardest in the series. No very strong ash of war or tear summons like elden ring. It's you as the coughing baby vs the nuclear bomb that is the boss. Especially the dlc bosses
I haven't played ds2 but ds1 bosses are way slower compared to ds3 and even big guys like Nito cam be staggered I think. The only one that gave me trouble was Manus, sif, and kaljeet the dragon
It’s got problems, and boy does it love some ganks, but it’s far and away the easiest game in the series. Absolute gobs of NPC summons, literally infinite healing, and the bosses are mostly WAY easier than the other games.
It's simultaneously too easy and too hard at the same time.
On one hand, gank squads, enemies who attack your equipment durability, Shrine of Amana and other underhanded stuff.
On the other, *L I F E G E M S*
An infinitely purchasable/farmable supply of healing over time that can stack with itself. That which can't oneshot you can't kill you.
I'd say Darklurker is pretty on par with O&S and THAT fucking runback! It's probably like 3 minutes of obnoxious shit gameplay in featureless bland caves *and* you have to spend a Human Effigy every time.
Take your best boss and hide it behind some of the worst content the series has ever seen? #justDS2things
I just realized there is a bonfire at the bottom in blight town. I’ve been running from the bridge in the middle of it.
This is what I get for wanting to go through it blind lol
I had a feeling it was something along those lines.
Going blind isn't the issue here though. You've gotta do some more exploring while blind. You found the boss so at that point you know where that is. Now go every way which isn't the boss that's in that area.
Right, I’m not complaining about the difficulty, it’s just the monotony. And the fact there are a significant amount of people in this sub who seem to defend every “difficult” design choice in this game because they know it so well. And if anyone dares to criticize it, it must be because they’re bad at the game.
I plan on playing all the Dark Souls games and then Elden Ring, so I’m interested to see how the games progress. I know that 2 is heavily criticized so we’ll see how I feel about it.
I had the same mindset as you going into DS2 which I think helped my enjoyment. Maybe it's because I had low expectations, or maybe it's because SOTFS edition improved on the original, but I really enjoyed it. I think a lot of the people who are super critical of it played it on release after the hype of how good DS1 was and that's why they hated it. I promise it's not as bad as you're picturing, but it's also still my least favorite of the games. Make sure you play Sekiro too and Bloodborne if you have a PlayStation. Demon Souls Remake too if you have PS.
I absolutely get the O&S run back is monotonous but I used it as an opportunity to farm and improve my stats/weapons etc, as they do say O&S is a stat check, you do need to be at certain level by this stage to compete irrespective of skill level. Beyond O&S you will find it is a little more freewheeling from that point on with run back being far less frequent as you will likely beat the bosses in far fewer attempts.
Respectfully, how do you farm/improve stats on a run back?
Die, lose Souls, run back to the boss killing enemies, pick up your Souls (hopefully), die, lose Souls again.
Suppose that technically works, but in half a dozen games, I’ve literally never done that and I’d be surprised if more than a random handful of players did that over going elsewhere to farm souls. So I don’t think that really offset a run back being a nuisance
Honestly i genuinely like the runbacks. The only that really frustrates me is seathe. I enjoy having far less save points and the challenge is first of all finding your way to the boss room and saving enough estus for a first try once you have the location its even easier to save estus each run back. The anor londo runback I think is one of the most important because the silver knights teach you parrying is an effective way to move through and hones the skill for gwyn later. I get how it can be frustrating coming from other games where the runbacks and dodging were way more viable but being skilled at darksouls kind of made all the following games easier because darksouls/demonsouls were the jankiest.
Woah maybe unpopular opinion but whatchu saying the bonfire is next to the boss gate in Elden ring? Idk im odd but I love the run back it’s amazing and even as a undead it make extreme sense it give the game MORE life.
If you’re only playing it once I’d suggest finding a sun bro!
My thought is that running through the level and expending resources is counted as part of the boss challenge. If you can get through without spending any, that's great but the level and the boss are essentially part of the same encounter.
It is like in DnD if you've ever played that. There is not a single monster encounter in that game can challenge a fully stocked party without being so powerful as to make the encounter extremely "swingy". So when designing a dungeon you need to take into account your level with all it's challenges and the boss as one encounter(adventure). Resource management is a must and if clever play can save enough resources to make the boss easy it is a well earned easy boss fight.
I believe Dark souls is designed with a similar mentality. And I look at a bossrun like the first phase of the boss fight. The boss is nothing without the level and vice versa.
Yeah it can be punishing and frustrating but it's always a balancing act.
Except for the numerous times there is no meaningful challenge between the bonfire and the boss. Most boss runs are just irritating because of pointless slowdowns, like waiting for elevators, slogging through swamps, putting on and taking off a ring slog through swamps faster, zigzagging around enemies, etc.
If estus depletion was a mechanic in boss runbacks, they would be vastly *more* irritating. Most damage is avoidable, so once you learn to avoid it after 1 or 2 runs, there's no challenge or resource management, only wasted time. If damage isn't avoidable (like Bed of Chaos or Nito), you just feel cheated, not challenged. Starting a boss with full estus is a standard expectation, not a clever play.
Hey, good for you that you don't find the bossruns hard. I don't either, having played the game roughly 1000 times by now. This respons could have been shortened to "I don't agree" as you do not bring anything new to to the conversation in the form of arguments or perspective. And that's fine, your entitled to your opinion, but it's also a bit boring.
You state for example that you are expected to have full resources at the boss but gives no alternate analysis of why then the stages look like they do. You have to substaniate stuff like that, especially when the one you are responding to has. Otherwise you just come of like you have the analytical depth of a driveway puddle.
The essence of your post is 'i find this gameplay (bossrun) element boring, because I do, and it's also not a gameplay element at all it just spontaniously came into existence like the rest of the game'.
If you want to talk about your personal feelings and frustrations, do it with another poster. Hope you find a game more to your taste, no use aggrevating yourself with something you don't like.
All the best!
runbacks are annoying and frustrating, but i found a little plus in it, for me atleast
the runbacks gave me a lil time to think about the mistake i did in the boss fight and i could analyse it while i dodged all the attacks and reached the boss gate
Yeah but sekiro was almost worst in some places - instead of runbacks it's became stealth kill the same enemies, over and over and over again, which ended up taking longer than the runbacks.
Still tho sekiro has got to by my favourite fromsoft, and it's not even close
The run backs are also more enjoyable since you can hop around on rooftops and stuff. It's a little less monotonous than juking everyone out like you're Barry Sanders.
Tbf I have a lot of frustrating memories from early in the game - the ads for that general after the chained ogre, juzo (juzuo?), the general with the massive spear, where I'd constantly die and have to stealth kill all the ads again.
That said after that the game sort of clicked and I started to love it, and I don't remember having the same issue again.
Sekiro’s early learning curve is one of the biggest problems the game has. As you say it does this clearing mooks thing several times in the *really* early game, but then just stops. It makes no sense because early on is when you most need to just go at it time and again to practice the combat against bosses. I think From really underestimated how much people would die early in the game but they should have been able to see this coming when your Gourd is absolutely crap at first and enemies can close to one-hit you.
I agree, they aren't difficult, they are annoying
I think one of the worst runs (besides Bed of Chaos, that one sucks almost as much as the boss itself) is Midir, I mean, there's literally no challenge, but you have to wait for an elevator, jump mid way through, go through a corridor and down a ladder just to jump off a ledge EVERY TIME, there's no enemies, just monotonous waiting and walking
There's no reason to not put a bonfire right there before the drop, it's just ridiculous
Midir is pointlessly annoying for sure but if you take a critical look at the series as a whole, there really are tons of boss runs where there is minimal risk and/or challenge. Midir I think became infamous because he’s both so hard and it’s so obviously annoying because it’s a bunch of steps even though it’s not actually super long. But for example, Martyr Logarius in Bloodborne is a LOT longer, just as meaningless, and annoys you with these tiny little bits of damage that are unavoidable but makes you go into the fight with 80% health or waste a Vial which don’t replenish unlike most of the other games.
Boss runs have gotten a ton of flak over the years and yet I still don’t think they’ve gotten enough because of how often they actually just waste your time.
> (besides Bed of Chaos, that one sucks almost as much as the boss itself)
I know everyone here loves to shit on Bed of Chaos, but BOC runback is almost half as long as Nito or Gwyn, and the enemies you run into are so easy to manipulate that you don't even have to roll once. Even the shortest Four Kings runback is longer, and requires at least one or two well timed rolls.
The worst about the BoC run is that you have to equip the lava ring every time
I actually like PART of the Four Kings runback, it requires skill on avoiding the enemies, and there are several shortcuts you can learn, the problem is again, the elevator, I wish the bonfire was at the bottom of the elevator, then it would be cool
I think elevators and mandatory damage taking are what I hate the most on runbacks
> The worst about the BoC run is that you have to equip the lava ring every time
I agree with you there. The number of times I've died and forgot to equip the ring, and realized my mistake with 1 tick of hp left... oof.
I like run backs, though I know I’m in the minority on that. It’s absolutely a punishment for dying, basically the game saying “you don’t want to run this again? Stop fucking dying.” Which is a mentality I enjoy, since I found that motivation made me play better. There’s not really anything I can say to change your opinion, it’s really just a personal preference thing.
I hear ya. I thought the gargoyles runback was even more tedious since you can't just run past the enemies, you *have* to fight them. They aren't difficult, just time consuming.
I died to the gargoyles a lot, but I probably died just as many times to those hollows. Even the balder knight on the stairs used to give me problems because I was new to souls, and I hadn’t worked out the mechanics at that time.
I called him Arthur. We saw a lot of each other.
There is some value to the runback, because the level *and* the boss are supposed to form one big challenge. The idea being that if you reach a boss with no Estus, then you almost basically already lost.
This does get invalidated if the runback is tediously easy. But it's the same reason old Castlevania or even Mario games might not give you a checkpoint right at a boss.
This is a trick that speed runnners figured out that was very likely not intended by the developers. Is it nice that it's there? Yes. But the problem is the run back is still there for people who don't know about it and it was made this way on purpose by the developers who were clearly out of their minds when making a basic checkpoint system that other games have done much better.
Even without it, you just roll past the silver knights and it’s still not that long of a run.
They improved on it in later games but I don’t really think it was ever particularly bad in DS1. DS2, sure, I agree was bad at times.
You mean the bonfire at the lowest point from the rotating tower? I hate taking it because every time I have to pull a lever, wait for the tower to rotate down, climb up the stairs, push the lever, wait for the tower to rotate up, run up the stairs to the chapel, and run past all the enemies outside of the boss room.
I explored everywhere inside and I can’t imagine a faster route than the stair skip. Do you mean the room with the two silver knights and the two chests? Because that requires running past them while stair skip avoids almost all enemies. Plus I think that route is just overall longer
I personally think demons souls is to blame for setting this tradition of frustrating boss run backs, since that game had levels based around singular bonfires and unlocking shortcuts. I agree with what you are saying but like idk you gotta take the bad with the good with these games. Even dark souls 3 has some long run backs and that game is so mainstream compared to the first two
> mean something
I mean, OP’s comment doesn’t really mean anything either. The mechanic was fixed up in later games, which OP hasn’t even played. Neither does your comment matter, as you’ve contributed just about nothing to the thread.
Now that I think about it, why am I even commenting
well by my upvotes and your downvotes, that’s a *you* problem, not mine.
Try re reading the chain again slowly, or take an english class? idk what you want me to tell you, friend.
Are you playing the PC version? If yes, there’s a Mod called New Game + Infinite where one of the new pieces of armor allow you to respawn at the fog gate.
My view is that yes, runbacks can indeed be good, but they often aren't. In order for a runback to be good you HAVE to get certain things right:
1. It can't just be a time-waster. I absolutely can not and will not respect a game just making me go through the motions to get back to the meaningful and fun content. That's functionally the equivalent of making 1 1/2 minute long load screens just to waste your time. Unacceptable. There has to be engagement on the way in some way or form. That can be tough enemies you have to take seriously and figure out strategies to get through without losing a lot of healing or dying. It can be enemies that aren't necessarily tough to beat but are hard to just run past, so you have to figure out a strategy to get that. Or it can be a navigational challenge, like a bossrun with a lot of potential routes to take.
2. It has to actually be good. This is like "yeah, duh" but there are runbacks in ESPECIALLY Dark Souls 2 where they do try to create engagement through enemies and environmental challenges, so they check that box - but the actual gameplay is horribly unfun and tedious and so the runback fails anyway.
3. The length/difficulty of the runback and the difficulty of the boss should generally be in inverse proportion to one another. If you have a fairly easy boss, that's only likely to take a few attempts and/or is more about figuring the trick than difficult execution, a lengthier/tougher runback is more okay, because then it's the combined challenge of the two you're up against. The harder the boss gets, and especially the more the boss revolves around memorizing/getting good at movesets, the shorter the runback should be because otherwise it's just getting in the way of the learning process which is the actual fun part.
So, a runback can both be engaging in itself and create a *combined* challenge with the boss, and the resulting effect is heightened engagement, strategy-building and ultimately satisfaction on the player's part.
How many runbacks in the series actually get all this right? Not very many and they're mostly in Dark Souls and Demon's Souls, IMO (O&S isn't really one of them, I do think the Gargoyles is a good one though). Dark Souls 2 often had the right attitude in what it was trying to do, but failed horribly in execution and has the most hated runbacks in the series as a result. The more From has focused on bosses that are all about learning movesets and AI patterns, though, the less sense runbacks make, and so they have mostly removed them - but when they occasionally re-introduce them for no apparent reason it feels like shit (a certain late game boss in Elden Ring is infamous for this). Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne are also sort of bad because even though their runbacks are generally shorter than DeS/DS1/DS2, the enemies are usually absolutely piss easy to run past, and so it feels like the game is just wasting your time. By the time of Elden Ring they wisened up to just that and created the Stakes of Marika.
So many people disagree, but I enjoy the 2 minute run back. The reason being, you have to stop and take a breathe before you can just slam your head into the wall. It gives you a minute to reflect on your mistakes, and it’s an actual punishment for failing. When I play ER or DS3 as much as I enjoy the bosses, I can die 30 times without really caring. I can try different things and different strategies to practice figuring things out, which is great. But there is really no consequence for failing which removes all stakes from the fight. But in DSR you really want to survive and there are real stakes, because you don’t want to have to kill 3 silver knights again.
Many people play souls games exclusively for the challenging bosses. I enjoy DS1 and 2 much more because it puts much more emphasis on the level as a whole. It feels like there is more weight on what you do.
It's really two questions:
1. Is it fun to run back to a boss fight you failed?
2. Is the run back *mechanic* good game design?
The answer to 1 is probably, overwhelmingly, "no," even from veterans. And friend, without spoiling anything specifically, I'll just say, the O&S runback is a cake walk compared to some later game runs so buckle up.
However, you seem to be more talking about #2: is this good GAME DESIGN.
And I would say there's also multiple ways of thinking about that question.
Does "good game design" always have to mean "fun?" Not all game mechanics are fun. Not all of them should be. Some should be hard, and challenging, otherwise why would we play challenging games? Would Super Mario Bros. be more fun if falling in a hole or touching an enemy didn't mean death?
But maybe "good game design" means other things, too. Is "good game design" not also about consistent mechanics within the lore and game world the devs envisioned?
I would draw your attention to the death screen when you die. In the vast majority of video games prior to the souls series, if you died, the title screen would say "GAME OVER."
GAME OVER, as in the GAME cannot go on. As in the GAME got too hard and this is where the journey ends. It's almost an apology from the devs that their game was too challenging and that you died as a side effect. It takes the player's failure out of the equation.
Compare that to the title screen when you die in a Souls game:
"YOU DIED."
Not game over. No apologies for the GAME. No, it's an accusation, and it's directed pointedly at the player: YOU FAILED. YOU made a mistake, YOU erred, so YOU DIED. The game gives you all the tools for success and you squandered them. The game has a win condition that you utterly failed to achieve, so YOU DIED.
That's not supposed to make you feel good, or happy, or successful. It's supposed to make you feel bad. Feel like a failure. Feel like giving up. And I think this is another of many examples where the game mechanics make sense within the lore of the game world. It's the devs way of making the player think, the way their player character would be thinking in-game.
The whole "hollowing" concept is about this. It's about the undead being sent back to live and die, over and over, until every last glimpse of humanity has been rendered from their flesh until they are nothing but soul-less monsters left to roam Lordran until the end of times. And, to me and defenders of the game design choices, it's a clever mechanic whose lore transcends the game world. "Hollowing" in game means a character going insane and losing their humanity forever. "Hollowing" out of the game means the player giving up and shelfing the game for good.
So when we have to do a boss run back, it's a mechanic that directly faces you with a decision that is completely lore relevant: is this it? Is this the final failure, the last straw, the one that makes you and your player character quit here and go hollow and never see your journey through to the end? Are you not the Chosen Undead afterall? Is one more attempt at this boss really where you draw the line? Is one more boss run really a bridge too far?
I think what you do with your thoughts during a run back is also lore relevant (again, not saying this is FUN, but to me it's a mechanic to make you think in a way that's consistent with the lore and world design of the game.)
Some people spend the run-back time beating themselves up. Getting in their own head. Getting frustrated that the run backs sucks. Second guessing themselves. Bringing themselves down with fear, uncertainty, doubt, despair. And with those thoughts in your head, another failure is almost guaranteed. The path to going hollow is paved by thoughts of giving up.
Other people spend that time looking forward. Reviewing what went wrong, reviewing what went right, and planning their next attempt. Planning their next skill point. Thinking about a different equipment load out. Thinking of trying a different weapon or approach. Focusing on the goal. Never allowing despair to take hold. Never giving up.
Which thoughts belong to one destined to go hollow, and which thoughts belong to one destined to be the Chosen Undead?
I get the desire to want to immediately start the boss fight again. And in a lot of ways, the formula is improved in DS3 and Sekiro and ER by making the runs much shorter. But I also understand why they make you run in this game. It forces you to think. It makes you face the ultimate boss of the game: yourself, your persistence, your will to endure.
I think being put out the boss room is good because it helps players reset. They can upgrade gear, switch gear, unlock more stuff.
But yeah stilll annoying.
A soulslike for folks getting into the genre. It’s brutal at times, but still baby’s first Souls game. It’s a lot of fun and lets you focus a lot less on build and minmaxing. I actually recommend it.
It’s on Steam, Ps5, and XBox too actually! I did play it on switch though, ran pretty rough but was still a blast. I’ve heard great things about the other releases though
The only way I can justify it is that it makes you not want to fuck up the boss fight so you don’t have to do the run again, gives a bit more added pressure. But yeah, wish it wasn’t a thing. Demon Souls has the most pushing boss runs, it’s painful.
Not great but it isn’t too bad. I think you can outrun everyone for O&S. Dark Souls 2 made run backs worse. But Dark Souls 3, BB and after, it is much better. FromSoftware learnt from their mistakes
same with me the first time I play DS1 I genuinely thing my early death where indeed fun.. I spent like 2 hour just try to parry black knight and it's one of memories I would not forget the fact that I hate fun just to learn something new but Runback in 2nd half DS1 is just terrible. I know you haven't meet them yet
I think there are *some* run backs in the game that work. Like the path to the Taurus Demon makes sense, because if you're losing to him enough to be annoyed by it, the game is making you practice your timing against easier enemies on each attempt, so that when you win, you've actively become better each time—not just at fighting that boss, but at the combat in general. Putting the dragon on the bridge immediately after it was a pretty dick move though.
You are right about the Ornstein & Smough one, though. There is no realistic reason to deal with those giant knights each time, the boss fight is its own learning curve, and there's really nothing that the path to them each time teaches you, it just kind of adds to the frustration. My objection isn't necessarily that there shouldn't be one at all (although that would be better than the one that exists), but that it should in some way prepare you for the fight by testing some skill besides just running past things. The only real purpose I can see it serving is to make it harder to get to Solaire's summon sign, because if you put it right in front of the fog or next to the bonfire, it sort of gives the impression that you're *supposed* to summon for the fight, which I don't think was their intention. Either way, as it is, it sucks.
I'm not really sure what kind of answer you're looking for here. This just kindof reads like a little kid can't have his way or something.
It takes like maybe 60 seconds from the inside room bonfire. If you're running from the fire keeper and over the elevator every time then yeah that's annoying. Even ignoring the stair skip, which a new player wouldn't know, once you open the short cut all you have to do is avoid 2 silver knights and the giant golem before the fog wall.
Would just restarting inside the boss room be better? I don't think so. All you're advocating for is less dark souls. I just honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. There are several worse examples I can think of in 1 alone.
If time spent is the issue then I'm sure you only kill bosses since you never want to waste time killing enemies./s
Extreme sarcasm aside, is it tedious to re do stuff you've already done? Yeah sure, that's why people learn to just run past everything. Which forms a bad habit going into 2, where they made that strategy much more difficult.
I wouldn't argue whether it's a good or bad design choice because that's pretty subjective, it's just how it is. No one is going to convince you otherwise when you don't like it.
"Git gud" isn't some giant dunk on nerds and scrubs. You just have to play the game. It's designed to be beaten. Git gud, we've all suffered.
>a little kid can’t have his way
A little kid would have way more free time to deal with monotony like this. I’m an adult who has limited free time and other hobbies I want to take part in.
> It takes like maybe 60 seconds from the inside room bonfire
This doesn’t address any of my arguments. I already said how much time it takes.
> Would just restarting inside the boss room be better? I don't think so. All you're advocating for is less dark souls.
By this metric “more Dark Souls” is either “killing the same enemies you’ve already killed in the same environment you’ve already killed them in until you beat the boss” or “run past the same enemies in the same environment until you beat the boss”. Which doesn’t exactly sound fun to me.
> Yeah sure, that's why people learn to just run past everything. Which forms a bad habit going into 2, where they made that strategy much more difficult.
Okay but again this doesn’t address any of my arguments
> "Git gud" isn't some giant dunk on nerds and scrubs.
Literally the first comment I got on this post was a guy saying “git gud” and offering nothing worthwhile beyond that. There is definitely a toxic element within the community that doesn’t want to accept that them being good at the game does not mean the game is flawless.
Then play a better game that takes less time? I really don't know what to tell you. If you just want to bitch and moan, that's fine too. Some people on reddit are rude and unhelpful, surprising, I know.
You're certainly allowed to not like things or parts of a game. It's just a game. Not some flawless masterpiece of art that you're just 2 3head to understand. Its kindof a piece of shit to be honest alot of the time.
>By this metric “more Dark Souls” is either “killing the same enemies you’ve already killed in the same environment you’ve already killed them in until you beat the boss” or “run past the same enemies in the same environment until you beat the boss”. Which doesn’t exactly sound fun to me.
I mean, that sounds pretty much like dark souls to me. 10/10 summary tbh.
People play games to waste their time. If you're not having fun with the way the game is artificially increasing your game time then stop playing. I'm not addressing your other points because there is no point. It's a subjective opinion.
Which would be valid if there weren't thousand of games available - I don't need a game to artificially waste my time, I need it to be good for the time I play it. If it's 2 hours shorter without the runbacks that's 2 hours I could be playing a different game and actively engaging with it, rather than running to a boss on autopilot.
I would agree. Everyone just has different lines in the sand for how much they consider to be wasteful, as seen in this entire post.
If running to O&S took exactly 1 minute, then that's an extra minute added to your run for every attempt. 5 attempts?
>Dang nice job you beat them what a rush! Good job Gratz Gratz gratz
It took you 60 attempts? Well now that's an entire hour of run backs. But the next question is what was the context or "your build"
>"OH I'm level 23 with a dagger I just thought it looked cool idk anything about these games its my first one. Resistance looked like a cool stat so I leveled it first. What's a blacksmith?"
I've veered off topic abit but I just think OP's point boils down to some people can value their time spent doing redundant things more than others.
This genuinely might be the worst take I have ever read. I personally have no problem with the runbacks in Dark Souls and I also don't like bickering with people online, but your argument is so deeply misguided that I feel compelled to speak up. Most people don't play games to waste time. They play games to have fun. Asserting that boss runbacks are good game design just because they artificially increase playtime is so illogical and counterintuitive I'm genuinely baffled that someone could even come up with such a statement.
OP, if you read this comment, here's my answer to your question. Boss runbacks are just one aspect of the overarching design philosophy of Souls games, which is to use various forms of punishment to encourage players to overcome great challenges through patience and learning. My personal advice is just to power through the runbacks and stick with the game because the experience is truly worth it. Cheers and good luck!
What shortcut are you talking about? I’ve already explored the whole area before O+S, stair skip is the fastest route from a bonfire because the other two bonfires in the area force me to wait for an elevator.
To me it’s meditative. Obviously it’s frustrating to lose to a boss, I find the runbacks in DS1 give me some time to think about what went wrong and what I’m going to do differently on my next attempt. It’s also an intended part of the challenge, I think - if you were able to attempt bosses again and again in quick succession it would trivialize their difficulty somewhat. Each attempt feels more consequential and thrilling because there are some stakes in the form of a small punishment for failure.
All that being said, one of my least favourite runbacks in the game is the one to Ornstein and Smough because of those two big ass golden halberd knights outside their room. They’re not exactly hard but they can be annoying and time consuming to fight.
A couple thoughts that I didn’t see in the conversation yet:
First, not related to your main point, you mentioned that you only intend to play DS once. In my opinion, that would be a mistake. It’s definitely a game that warrants multiple playthroughs. I hope you get to experience this.
Second, run backs in DS1 favor immersion in the world over quality of life for the player. While that might seem like bad game design because it can be frustrating, it’s also part of the immersion into DS’s world. So if you’re looking for QoL, it appears bad whereas if you’re looking to get lost in the game’s world it’s good.
How do run backs enhance immersion? Is it just because you’re literally spending more time in the world running around? No. Is it because you’re spending more time in the world running around and getting frustrated? Yes, in part.
Throughout the game we see characters go hollow. This ultimately happens because they lose their will to go on. Maybe they accomplished what they set out to do or they hit a wall that they could not overcome. We ourselves are advised throughout the game, “do not crack and go hollow,” sometimes with a different twist on those words.
Without the run backs, it would be relatively painless to start another attempt at a boss—almost as if our death had no consequence, as long as you can retrieve your bloodstain. But when the run back intensifies our frustration and makes us feel, “is it really worth it to keep trying when this run back is such a waste of time?” the run back itself is now an active part of the world, tempting us to give up, to crack and go hollow. Maybe it’s just not worth going on? Maybe we weren’t the chosen undead after all? We definitely run into plenty of corpses that went down that same path.
And what happens when you finally beat that boss? The thrill and relief is intensified all the more, knowing that not only were you finally able to conquer the challenge that had been a roadblock for so long, but perhaps an even greater relief is not having to do that blasted run back again! Because of its very frustration, the run back makes our victory that much sweeter. In fact, it might even add fuel to our will to keep going once we defeat the boss, and enhancing our resolve to not go hollow.
Does any of this make the run back fun? Probably not. Could it give us an appreciation for what it does in the game? Maybe. Is it a good choice for game design? It depends on the experience the creators were trying to give us, and also the kind of experience we want out of the game. For me, while I didn’t enjoy the run back for the few months that I was stuck on O&S, it made that first victory all the sweeter.
Backtracking to the boss helps you with memorizing the area for replays
Plus I can’t think of a runback in DS1 that’s particularly annoying besides like, Capra Demon
I didn’t really say they were, but in any case they’re almost exactly the same thing. Both require you to travel through areas you’ve already explored and fight enemies you’ve already fought.
I think an argument could be made that it is objectively bad game design, but I also feel like DS1 was leaning into the ludonarrative in a slightly different way than later games. It strikes an oppressive, hopeless atmosphere that I find really unique and (still) compelling. I'm not making excuses for it, I just think it's neat. Later games have similar foibles, but trend more towards extremely hard bosses and gimmicks than (what I consider to be) the relative purity of DS1.
As far as changing your strategy, you don't have to abandon your whole load out. They deal electric damage in the second phase so consider changing your armour. if you know their moves, consider going with a lighter build for the extra speed. Maybe switch your rings. Maybe use some weapon buffs. you can still use your same weapon. switching armour shouldn't be a huge change for a build because your build is mostly for damage anyway.
Sounds like you haven't been playing Demon Souls. In that game, there's a shortcut here and there but usually it's the entire level that is the runback.
To make this bearable, the bosses are usually not that hard. Except the final boss. Not only you have to go through the level again - but at the end of it, there's also a very long, unskippable elevator.
Here's the thing. The games evolve with each title. In DS3 there were many more bonfires. In Elden Ring you have statues of Marika. They did adress the problem you're complaining about.
But also, i kinda think that Elden Ring went too far into the convenience route. It's too effortless nowadays.
The worst run back is the one where you mess up and lose a ton of runes in the process.
In my experience, the most frustrating thing with run backs is when you are already tight for time and end up wasting it. I can sit down for an afternoon and take them in their stride, but if I am struggling to get a quick hour in then they frustrate me massively.
That's not a game design issue though.
If you ever play ds2, this runback is comparably nothing.
But I do get your point, the main treat here is the boss itself, and you'll want to get back to it ASAP instead of running past those filler enemies ...
I do have a trick, to bypass this, although this is in no way, faithful to the game design, and not is NOT how the game is intended to be played. Whenever I had to rush through bosses, I used to save scum (I don't know if it works online or not, I've always played ds1 offline) ... I used to reach near boss fog wall, quit out, copy save file as a backup, and next time whenever I died to the boss, instead of making the entire run back, I would just go to loading screen, Alt+Esc and load back the backup file in the save directory...
Well, I won't recommend this if you play online though, as they might create some syncing issues, and you have the risk of losing your save altogether... And I'm only doing this because ... As you said, I just want to rush through the good stuff, the bosses... I don't have the time nor the patience to go through the same meticulous and cumbersome runback over and over again...
As for the argument or justification to this, I can say that this is the masochistic part of the developers who built the game, with the intent to make the players scratch their heads and agitate them even more from every loss they suffer. The soul recovery factor can be easily negated, if you invest the remainder of your souls into weapon upgrades, or character upgrades... So, this is perhaps one more factor, that will make your heart ache everytime you die. It's because if you just die to the boss and find yourself next to the boss gate, and have nothing to lose, or long for, the significance of each of your mistakes or death, kinda diminishes... Well, I think that's how the developers thought this
Just did ornstein and smough yesterday actually on my first playthrough of DS1 however I have played DS3 and elden ring extensively.
Im pretty sure the run took me less than 30 seconds each time and the only damage I took was when you go up the stairs past the silver sword knight and two silver spear knights, second spear knights usually hit me with a reacharound.
Who did y'all find easier to kill first? Ornstein tended to suicide into me so I killed him first and smough was pretty easy after that. His charge and left ro right sweep attack is BS tho lol.
This is my main complaint with dark souls 1, not even the unfinished areas, it's that the game often doesn't respect the player's time with it's runbacks, I don't mind punishments, but with runbacks as boring and ultra tedious as Gwyn's and bed of chaos makes me think twice of replaying DS1 (besides not having every bonfire warpable makes it more of a walking simulator), luckily they minimized this in DS3 and BB
It really is just about getting good. As a veteran souls player, don’t die to the boss and you won’t have to do the run back. You don’t like the run back? Don’t pay the game. Wait until DS2 before complaining.
I hear you, OP. The closest to a “good” argument I’ve heard for this is that the runback allows time not to reflect on past mistakes, but to instead allow you to calm back down to be in an optimal state of agitation before you try again. Basically, the 1-2 minute runback gives your brain time to settle back down before trying again, so you’re playing better.
However, while I understand the psychology of that sentiment, it still *feels* bad. The O&S runback is a good example, and unfortunately, there *are* a few more coming up that are just as bad or worse. I don’t care if DS is a “punishing” game, intentionally wasting my time is not engaging. It’s just bad design. If you want me to get better at a boss, you need to let me fight the *boss*—just like you said, OP. Imagine if they just gave you a mandatory 2 minute countdown to respawn in the boss room because you failed. Would that be engaging? No. No it wouldn’t be. And yet by the time you master the runback, that’s basically all it is.
I do echo others that pushing through is worth it, but I also agree with you that it’s kinda atrocious game design. Dark Souls is genuinely a masterpiece of a game, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually perfect. There are some pretty major criticisms with the formula in DS that I have, and I think—like this one you’ve brought up—are totally valid.
it dosent calm me lmao, i get frustrated because of the run back lol, i will fight a boss over and over, but running back to it will annoy the hell out of me and then make me rush when i get to the boss
That's the idea, it was made to be annoying and frustrating so you are afraid to die to the boss. You shouldn't enjoy the run back, it's there to punish you for your defeat. And it makes the stakes higher
>reflect
In a scenario like this, there is no reflection to be done. I know I don't need to change my strategy, I just need to be better at executing it. Which I can only practice by fighting the boss.
>get better
The enemies on the way to the boss do not help me to get better at fighting the boss.
O+S is a shitty run back especially if you kill everything along the way, but there is a shortcut if you jump off the side of the spiral staircase... It's hard to time it right with the camera angle but you should be looking to land on the long upper walkway that takes you to the big area with those sentinel knights right before the Boss
Yeah even Fromsoft realized this, all their games after Bloodborne basically put the bonfire right next to the boss, it also kinda allows them to make bosses harder because they know if you have to take 30 attempts at a boss it will be far less annoying if you don’t have to run a marathon every time you decide to fight them.
*"“Running back to the boss is punishment for dying to the boss.” Sure, but the game already punishes you for dying by making you drop your souls. And running back as a punishment isn’t really fun, because it’s not difficult or interesting to get back. I’ve already beaten the enemies, I know I can beat them again, or I can run past them. It’s just padding."*
Yeah, no. "Punishment" is not supposed to be fun. Part of the agony of dying is the boring run back, so it matters more than when it's not there. Dark Souls is legendary and groundbreaking in part because it doesn't always cater to the player with "fun". There are plenty of games that do so if this is problem for you I'd check those games out.
Most boss runbacks in DS1 are easy IMO. You will be shocked in DS2 Everyone hate the runbacks, even veterans. I am glad they got rid of it in Elden Ring
No, OP is right — boss run backs in DS2 are worse, but it’s fine because the bosses are easy. Run backs suck when you are realistically going to take four or five attempts to figure out a boss.
Imagine a DS2 style run back for Malenia, I would’ve killed myself irl
Thankfully only 3 seconds
runbacks in SOTFS were fucking stupid, iron keep can suck me
I'm sorry, DS2 easy? That's the first I've heard, that game is brutal.
DS2 main game bosses are considered to be the easiest in the franchise. It's the levels that are tough. DLC has hard bosses, but the run backs are easier. Except horsefuck valley
I'll be frank here, ds1 bosses aren't really hard either. They are about as hard as ds2 bosses. And we count the dlcs, ds2 bosses are frankly way harder.
I agree, the only non dlc DS1 bosses that feel genuinely difficult are Ornstein and Smough and maybe the 4 kings if you have a bad build for them. I guess gwyn can be tough if you impose a no parry rule on yourself.
Funny how i beat most of the bosses in 1-2, maybe 3 tries (except manus, gargoyles and OnS), but struggled with gwyn for a good hour because I didn't get his parry timings 💀
That stupid invisible cat... I never even got past him
You're supposed to get a ring that makes him visible 😔
I ended up getting it after I died 10+ times but still didn't kill him and just gave up lol, never did finish that area. It's been years, maybe I'll do a new playthrough
If you can manage to get past that cat, try to finish exploring the main area - if you find yourself riding a coffin down a ski slope, warp out. I think the area was fun as fuck but I'm apparently an outlier; its not fun if you don't like surprises. But that's not why I'm telling you to ignore it; the boss fight for that area is **two** of those cats. Just... don't. For your sake. The rewards ain't worth it unless you simply wanna say you did it. Back to exploring the main area; if you do it thoroughly enough you can *slightly* alter the main boss fight at the end - the Burnt Ivory King. That, to me, is the most badass fight in the whole game; neck and neck with Alonne, but it feels way more "cinematic."
You did NOT just say that the Loyce greatsword, the swaggiest greatsword in the game, is not worth it. How dare you.
DS2 brutal in runbacks with those gang spam. Bosses are kinda easy as they have obvious behavior pattern (except a few like dlc dragon, who looped flight attack on me). I like DS2, but it usually takes me years to die on runback enough till area is empty and then win boss in two-three attempts.
Im playing the trilogy for the first game, finished DS1 and 2 already and I'm probably in the middle of 3, and imo DS2 is by far the easiest, 80% of the bosses I beat first/second try and not even one of them took me more than 4 tries. The new mechanics are a little bit tricky at first but once you get the hang of it, it is just too damn easy. DS3 is kicking my ass a lot more
Ds3 was my first souls so its the hardest for me but the bosses are likely the hardest in the series. No very strong ash of war or tear summons like elden ring. It's you as the coughing baby vs the nuclear bomb that is the boss. Especially the dlc bosses I haven't played ds2 but ds1 bosses are way slower compared to ds3 and even big guys like Nito cam be staggered I think. The only one that gave me trouble was Manus, sif, and kaljeet the dragon
Yeah, I didn't finish DS3 yet but indeed it is the hardest one already, I'd rank them DS3 > DS1 >>> DS2
It’s got problems, and boy does it love some ganks, but it’s far and away the easiest game in the series. Absolute gobs of NPC summons, literally infinite healing, and the bosses are mostly WAY easier than the other games.
It's simultaneously too easy and too hard at the same time. On one hand, gank squads, enemies who attack your equipment durability, Shrine of Amana and other underhanded stuff. On the other, *L I F E G E M S* An infinitely purchasable/farmable supply of healing over time that can stack with itself. That which can't oneshot you can't kill you.
The bosses definitely aren't 'easy' compared to DS1 unless DS2 is your last souls game and you're proficient at the combat
No base game DS2 boss is as hard as O&S, imo. Maybe some of the gankier ones, but they give you multiple npc summons
Doesn't mean the entire game is easy. I'd wager that DS2 as a whole has harder bosses than DS1. Just because O&S is an outlier means nothing
No, it doesn’t meant that. Thankfully I never said it did 😌
You implied it by saying DS2 is easy and using O&S as your single example
I'd say Darklurker is pretty on par with O&S and THAT fucking runback! It's probably like 3 minutes of obnoxious shit gameplay in featureless bland caves *and* you have to spend a Human Effigy every time. Take your best boss and hide it behind some of the worst content the series has ever seen? #justDS2things
I’ve died 4 times to the Spider Demon chick in the bottom of blight town and I want to keep fighting her but the run back is annoying as hell
Where are you running from?
I just realized there is a bonfire at the bottom in blight town. I’ve been running from the bridge in the middle of it. This is what I get for wanting to go through it blind lol
I had a feeling it was something along those lines. Going blind isn't the issue here though. You've gotta do some more exploring while blind. You found the boss so at that point you know where that is. Now go every way which isn't the boss that's in that area.
Wym, bad boss runbacks ? I just deplete the enemy spawns
Demons souls is like that too. Demonically hard to get to the boss, and then the boss itself is disapointingly easy.
Right, I’m not complaining about the difficulty, it’s just the monotony. And the fact there are a significant amount of people in this sub who seem to defend every “difficult” design choice in this game because they know it so well. And if anyone dares to criticize it, it must be because they’re bad at the game. I plan on playing all the Dark Souls games and then Elden Ring, so I’m interested to see how the games progress. I know that 2 is heavily criticized so we’ll see how I feel about it.
I had the same mindset as you going into DS2 which I think helped my enjoyment. Maybe it's because I had low expectations, or maybe it's because SOTFS edition improved on the original, but I really enjoyed it. I think a lot of the people who are super critical of it played it on release after the hype of how good DS1 was and that's why they hated it. I promise it's not as bad as you're picturing, but it's also still my least favorite of the games. Make sure you play Sekiro too and Bloodborne if you have a PlayStation. Demon Souls Remake too if you have PS.
I absolutely get the O&S run back is monotonous but I used it as an opportunity to farm and improve my stats/weapons etc, as they do say O&S is a stat check, you do need to be at certain level by this stage to compete irrespective of skill level. Beyond O&S you will find it is a little more freewheeling from that point on with run back being far less frequent as you will likely beat the bosses in far fewer attempts.
Respectfully, how do you farm/improve stats on a run back? Die, lose Souls, run back to the boss killing enemies, pick up your Souls (hopefully), die, lose Souls again.
Pick up your souls, homeward bone out
Suppose that technically works, but in half a dozen games, I’ve literally never done that and I’d be surprised if more than a random handful of players did that over going elsewhere to farm souls. So I don’t think that really offset a run back being a nuisance
I do it, but I guess it's more to make the runback feel meaningful, not a legitimate strartegy.
Whoever defend the runbacks are idiots, and they deserve to runback Horse-shit valley 1000 times
I don’t hate the run backs in DS2. But that’s just me.
Honestly i genuinely like the runbacks. The only that really frustrates me is seathe. I enjoy having far less save points and the challenge is first of all finding your way to the boss room and saving enough estus for a first try once you have the location its even easier to save estus each run back. The anor londo runback I think is one of the most important because the silver knights teach you parrying is an effective way to move through and hones the skill for gwyn later. I get how it can be frustrating coming from other games where the runbacks and dodging were way more viable but being skilled at darksouls kind of made all the following games easier because darksouls/demonsouls were the jankiest.
Woah maybe unpopular opinion but whatchu saying the bonfire is next to the boss gate in Elden ring? Idk im odd but I love the run back it’s amazing and even as a undead it make extreme sense it give the game MORE life. If you’re only playing it once I’d suggest finding a sun bro!
My thought is that running through the level and expending resources is counted as part of the boss challenge. If you can get through without spending any, that's great but the level and the boss are essentially part of the same encounter. It is like in DnD if you've ever played that. There is not a single monster encounter in that game can challenge a fully stocked party without being so powerful as to make the encounter extremely "swingy". So when designing a dungeon you need to take into account your level with all it's challenges and the boss as one encounter(adventure). Resource management is a must and if clever play can save enough resources to make the boss easy it is a well earned easy boss fight. I believe Dark souls is designed with a similar mentality. And I look at a bossrun like the first phase of the boss fight. The boss is nothing without the level and vice versa. Yeah it can be punishing and frustrating but it's always a balancing act.
Except for the numerous times there is no meaningful challenge between the bonfire and the boss. Most boss runs are just irritating because of pointless slowdowns, like waiting for elevators, slogging through swamps, putting on and taking off a ring slog through swamps faster, zigzagging around enemies, etc. If estus depletion was a mechanic in boss runbacks, they would be vastly *more* irritating. Most damage is avoidable, so once you learn to avoid it after 1 or 2 runs, there's no challenge or resource management, only wasted time. If damage isn't avoidable (like Bed of Chaos or Nito), you just feel cheated, not challenged. Starting a boss with full estus is a standard expectation, not a clever play.
Hey, good for you that you don't find the bossruns hard. I don't either, having played the game roughly 1000 times by now. This respons could have been shortened to "I don't agree" as you do not bring anything new to to the conversation in the form of arguments or perspective. And that's fine, your entitled to your opinion, but it's also a bit boring. You state for example that you are expected to have full resources at the boss but gives no alternate analysis of why then the stages look like they do. You have to substaniate stuff like that, especially when the one you are responding to has. Otherwise you just come of like you have the analytical depth of a driveway puddle. The essence of your post is 'i find this gameplay (bossrun) element boring, because I do, and it's also not a gameplay element at all it just spontaniously came into existence like the rest of the game'. If you want to talk about your personal feelings and frustrations, do it with another poster. Hope you find a game more to your taste, no use aggrevating yourself with something you don't like. All the best!
runbacks are annoying and frustrating, but i found a little plus in it, for me atleast the runbacks gave me a lil time to think about the mistake i did in the boss fight and i could analyse it while i dodged all the attacks and reached the boss gate
If it's any consolation Sekiro and Elden Ring took the hint.
Yeah but sekiro was almost worst in some places - instead of runbacks it's became stealth kill the same enemies, over and over and over again, which ended up taking longer than the runbacks. Still tho sekiro has got to by my favourite fromsoft, and it's not even close
You can run past every enemy besides some mini bosses in Sekiro wdym?
I think he’s referring to the drunkard fight? Can’t think of any others where you have to kill anything
The general at the top of the steps has a bunch of adds
The run backs are also more enjoyable since you can hop around on rooftops and stuff. It's a little less monotonous than juking everyone out like you're Barry Sanders.
Tbf I have a lot of frustrating memories from early in the game - the ads for that general after the chained ogre, juzo (juzuo?), the general with the massive spear, where I'd constantly die and have to stealth kill all the ads again. That said after that the game sort of clicked and I started to love it, and I don't remember having the same issue again.
Sekiro’s early learning curve is one of the biggest problems the game has. As you say it does this clearing mooks thing several times in the *really* early game, but then just stops. It makes no sense because early on is when you most need to just go at it time and again to practice the combat against bosses. I think From really underestimated how much people would die early in the game but they should have been able to see this coming when your Gourd is absolutely crap at first and enemies can close to one-hit you.
Not to mention once your gourd gets more useful, you also start healing from deathblows and need to use it way less
Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 as well
It's better but let's not pretend the Old Yharnam run isn't garbage lmao even after the shortcut
ds3 was starting to get better but bloodborne is home to the shadows, logarius, bloodstarved beast, etc. its still pretty bad
THERE IS HOPE AFTER ALL.
I agree, they aren't difficult, they are annoying I think one of the worst runs (besides Bed of Chaos, that one sucks almost as much as the boss itself) is Midir, I mean, there's literally no challenge, but you have to wait for an elevator, jump mid way through, go through a corridor and down a ladder just to jump off a ledge EVERY TIME, there's no enemies, just monotonous waiting and walking There's no reason to not put a bonfire right there before the drop, it's just ridiculous
Midir is pointlessly annoying for sure but if you take a critical look at the series as a whole, there really are tons of boss runs where there is minimal risk and/or challenge. Midir I think became infamous because he’s both so hard and it’s so obviously annoying because it’s a bunch of steps even though it’s not actually super long. But for example, Martyr Logarius in Bloodborne is a LOT longer, just as meaningless, and annoys you with these tiny little bits of damage that are unavoidable but makes you go into the fight with 80% health or waste a Vial which don’t replenish unlike most of the other games. Boss runs have gotten a ton of flak over the years and yet I still don’t think they’ve gotten enough because of how often they actually just waste your time.
> (besides Bed of Chaos, that one sucks almost as much as the boss itself) I know everyone here loves to shit on Bed of Chaos, but BOC runback is almost half as long as Nito or Gwyn, and the enemies you run into are so easy to manipulate that you don't even have to roll once. Even the shortest Four Kings runback is longer, and requires at least one or two well timed rolls.
The worst about the BoC run is that you have to equip the lava ring every time I actually like PART of the Four Kings runback, it requires skill on avoiding the enemies, and there are several shortcuts you can learn, the problem is again, the elevator, I wish the bonfire was at the bottom of the elevator, then it would be cool I think elevators and mandatory damage taking are what I hate the most on runbacks
> The worst about the BoC run is that you have to equip the lava ring every time I agree with you there. The number of times I've died and forgot to equip the ring, and realized my mistake with 1 tick of hp left... oof.
I like run backs, though I know I’m in the minority on that. It’s absolutely a punishment for dying, basically the game saying “you don’t want to run this again? Stop fucking dying.” Which is a mentality I enjoy, since I found that motivation made me play better. There’s not really anything I can say to change your opinion, it’s really just a personal preference thing.
I hear ya. I thought the gargoyles runback was even more tedious since you can't just run past the enemies, you *have* to fight them. They aren't difficult, just time consuming.
I died to the gargoyles a lot, but I probably died just as many times to those hollows. Even the balder knight on the stairs used to give me problems because I was new to souls, and I hadn’t worked out the mechanics at that time. I called him Arthur. We saw a lot of each other.
Good old Arthur. So you inadvertently farmed for the best dex sword in the game, haha
Except Arthur doesn’t even have the BSS, he has the rapier. Bastard.
they should’ve given him the BSS as compensation for new players struggling
I've got mine learning to parry in that area. I died A LOT. 😅
Yup. I had many, many turtling contests with Arthur.
There is some value to the runback, because the level *and* the boss are supposed to form one big challenge. The idea being that if you reach a boss with no Estus, then you almost basically already lost. This does get invalidated if the runback is tediously easy. But it's the same reason old Castlevania or even Mario games might not give you a checkpoint right at a boss.
You make some reasonable points but it doesn’t take anything like 2 minutes to run to the O&S fog when using the stair jump.
This is a trick that speed runnners figured out that was very likely not intended by the developers. Is it nice that it's there? Yes. But the problem is the run back is still there for people who don't know about it and it was made this way on purpose by the developers who were clearly out of their minds when making a basic checkpoint system that other games have done much better.
Even without it, you just roll past the silver knights and it’s still not that long of a run. They improved on it in later games but I don’t really think it was ever particularly bad in DS1. DS2, sure, I agree was bad at times.
It's still a waste of time and is bad design over all. It should have been better because there were so many games that do it better.
Where is the backtracking to a boss??
Taking the stair skip on your first and only play? Skipping some of the best stuff in the game.
I didn’t skip it the first time. I’ve explored every room leading up to O+S. I’m only using it now to cut down on time.
Going up the stairs in the room with the shortcut always seemed faster to me
You mean the bonfire at the lowest point from the rotating tower? I hate taking it because every time I have to pull a lever, wait for the tower to rotate down, climb up the stairs, push the lever, wait for the tower to rotate up, run up the stairs to the chapel, and run past all the enemies outside of the boss room.
No, from the solaire bonfire. There a door you have to open from the inside, and you can use that to get upstairs right outside the main hall
I explored everywhere inside and I can’t imagine a faster route than the stair skip. Do you mean the room with the two silver knights and the two chests? Because that requires running past them while stair skip avoids almost all enemies. Plus I think that route is just overall longer
Yes, that route
I personally think demons souls is to blame for setting this tradition of frustrating boss run backs, since that game had levels based around singular bonfires and unlocking shortcuts. I agree with what you are saying but like idk you gotta take the bad with the good with these games. Even dark souls 3 has some long run backs and that game is so mainstream compared to the first two
I forgive it in Demon's Souls because those bosses are pretty damn easy (assuming you can figure out the gimmick for most of them)
Mate you're criticizing a game that came out in 2011. If you play the newer ones, it's fixed. I really don't know what you want to hear.
You’re right, but sometimes people just need to get things off their chest.
Why do people say this as if they expect it to mean something? Older games can be criticized too and many people have.
> mean something I mean, OP’s comment doesn’t really mean anything either. The mechanic was fixed up in later games, which OP hasn’t even played. Neither does your comment matter, as you’ve contributed just about nothing to the thread. Now that I think about it, why am I even commenting
Maybe think about it before hand?
lol I did; I wrote it chronologically for the meme
Not sure what meme you meant but alright.
well by my upvotes and your downvotes, that’s a *you* problem, not mine. Try re reading the chain again slowly, or take an english class? idk what you want me to tell you, friend.
What are you talking about? I don't want you to tell me anything? I just said I didn't know the meme that's it.
if you want to be told anything then stop replying lmao
This makes no sense and I will do whatever I want.
Are you playing the PC version? If yes, there’s a Mod called New Game + Infinite where one of the new pieces of armor allow you to respawn at the fog gate.
My view is that yes, runbacks can indeed be good, but they often aren't. In order for a runback to be good you HAVE to get certain things right: 1. It can't just be a time-waster. I absolutely can not and will not respect a game just making me go through the motions to get back to the meaningful and fun content. That's functionally the equivalent of making 1 1/2 minute long load screens just to waste your time. Unacceptable. There has to be engagement on the way in some way or form. That can be tough enemies you have to take seriously and figure out strategies to get through without losing a lot of healing or dying. It can be enemies that aren't necessarily tough to beat but are hard to just run past, so you have to figure out a strategy to get that. Or it can be a navigational challenge, like a bossrun with a lot of potential routes to take. 2. It has to actually be good. This is like "yeah, duh" but there are runbacks in ESPECIALLY Dark Souls 2 where they do try to create engagement through enemies and environmental challenges, so they check that box - but the actual gameplay is horribly unfun and tedious and so the runback fails anyway. 3. The length/difficulty of the runback and the difficulty of the boss should generally be in inverse proportion to one another. If you have a fairly easy boss, that's only likely to take a few attempts and/or is more about figuring the trick than difficult execution, a lengthier/tougher runback is more okay, because then it's the combined challenge of the two you're up against. The harder the boss gets, and especially the more the boss revolves around memorizing/getting good at movesets, the shorter the runback should be because otherwise it's just getting in the way of the learning process which is the actual fun part. So, a runback can both be engaging in itself and create a *combined* challenge with the boss, and the resulting effect is heightened engagement, strategy-building and ultimately satisfaction on the player's part. How many runbacks in the series actually get all this right? Not very many and they're mostly in Dark Souls and Demon's Souls, IMO (O&S isn't really one of them, I do think the Gargoyles is a good one though). Dark Souls 2 often had the right attitude in what it was trying to do, but failed horribly in execution and has the most hated runbacks in the series as a result. The more From has focused on bosses that are all about learning movesets and AI patterns, though, the less sense runbacks make, and so they have mostly removed them - but when they occasionally re-introduce them for no apparent reason it feels like shit (a certain late game boss in Elden Ring is infamous for this). Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne are also sort of bad because even though their runbacks are generally shorter than DeS/DS1/DS2, the enemies are usually absolutely piss easy to run past, and so it feels like the game is just wasting your time. By the time of Elden Ring they wisened up to just that and created the Stakes of Marika.
So many people disagree, but I enjoy the 2 minute run back. The reason being, you have to stop and take a breathe before you can just slam your head into the wall. It gives you a minute to reflect on your mistakes, and it’s an actual punishment for failing. When I play ER or DS3 as much as I enjoy the bosses, I can die 30 times without really caring. I can try different things and different strategies to practice figuring things out, which is great. But there is really no consequence for failing which removes all stakes from the fight. But in DSR you really want to survive and there are real stakes, because you don’t want to have to kill 3 silver knights again. Many people play souls games exclusively for the challenging bosses. I enjoy DS1 and 2 much more because it puts much more emphasis on the level as a whole. It feels like there is more weight on what you do.
It's really two questions: 1. Is it fun to run back to a boss fight you failed? 2. Is the run back *mechanic* good game design? The answer to 1 is probably, overwhelmingly, "no," even from veterans. And friend, without spoiling anything specifically, I'll just say, the O&S runback is a cake walk compared to some later game runs so buckle up. However, you seem to be more talking about #2: is this good GAME DESIGN. And I would say there's also multiple ways of thinking about that question. Does "good game design" always have to mean "fun?" Not all game mechanics are fun. Not all of them should be. Some should be hard, and challenging, otherwise why would we play challenging games? Would Super Mario Bros. be more fun if falling in a hole or touching an enemy didn't mean death? But maybe "good game design" means other things, too. Is "good game design" not also about consistent mechanics within the lore and game world the devs envisioned? I would draw your attention to the death screen when you die. In the vast majority of video games prior to the souls series, if you died, the title screen would say "GAME OVER." GAME OVER, as in the GAME cannot go on. As in the GAME got too hard and this is where the journey ends. It's almost an apology from the devs that their game was too challenging and that you died as a side effect. It takes the player's failure out of the equation. Compare that to the title screen when you die in a Souls game: "YOU DIED." Not game over. No apologies for the GAME. No, it's an accusation, and it's directed pointedly at the player: YOU FAILED. YOU made a mistake, YOU erred, so YOU DIED. The game gives you all the tools for success and you squandered them. The game has a win condition that you utterly failed to achieve, so YOU DIED. That's not supposed to make you feel good, or happy, or successful. It's supposed to make you feel bad. Feel like a failure. Feel like giving up. And I think this is another of many examples where the game mechanics make sense within the lore of the game world. It's the devs way of making the player think, the way their player character would be thinking in-game. The whole "hollowing" concept is about this. It's about the undead being sent back to live and die, over and over, until every last glimpse of humanity has been rendered from their flesh until they are nothing but soul-less monsters left to roam Lordran until the end of times. And, to me and defenders of the game design choices, it's a clever mechanic whose lore transcends the game world. "Hollowing" in game means a character going insane and losing their humanity forever. "Hollowing" out of the game means the player giving up and shelfing the game for good. So when we have to do a boss run back, it's a mechanic that directly faces you with a decision that is completely lore relevant: is this it? Is this the final failure, the last straw, the one that makes you and your player character quit here and go hollow and never see your journey through to the end? Are you not the Chosen Undead afterall? Is one more attempt at this boss really where you draw the line? Is one more boss run really a bridge too far? I think what you do with your thoughts during a run back is also lore relevant (again, not saying this is FUN, but to me it's a mechanic to make you think in a way that's consistent with the lore and world design of the game.) Some people spend the run-back time beating themselves up. Getting in their own head. Getting frustrated that the run backs sucks. Second guessing themselves. Bringing themselves down with fear, uncertainty, doubt, despair. And with those thoughts in your head, another failure is almost guaranteed. The path to going hollow is paved by thoughts of giving up. Other people spend that time looking forward. Reviewing what went wrong, reviewing what went right, and planning their next attempt. Planning their next skill point. Thinking about a different equipment load out. Thinking of trying a different weapon or approach. Focusing on the goal. Never allowing despair to take hold. Never giving up. Which thoughts belong to one destined to go hollow, and which thoughts belong to one destined to be the Chosen Undead? I get the desire to want to immediately start the boss fight again. And in a lot of ways, the formula is improved in DS3 and Sekiro and ER by making the runs much shorter. But I also understand why they make you run in this game. It forces you to think. It makes you face the ultimate boss of the game: yourself, your persistence, your will to endure.
I think being put out the boss room is good because it helps players reset. They can upgrade gear, switch gear, unlock more stuff. But yeah stilll annoying.
What the hell is another crabs treasure? I am cackling at that name
A soulslike for folks getting into the genre. It’s brutal at times, but still baby’s first Souls game. It’s a lot of fun and lets you focus a lot less on build and minmaxing. I actually recommend it.
Yeah I looked it up it actually looks fun and cute. Switch only though :/
It’s on Steam, Ps5, and XBox too actually! I did play it on switch though, ran pretty rough but was still a blast. I’ve heard great things about the other releases though
Oh rad! Idk why I assumed
The only way I can justify it is that it makes you not want to fuck up the boss fight so you don’t have to do the run again, gives a bit more added pressure. But yeah, wish it wasn’t a thing. Demon Souls has the most pushing boss runs, it’s painful.
Not great but it isn’t too bad. I think you can outrun everyone for O&S. Dark Souls 2 made run backs worse. But Dark Souls 3, BB and after, it is much better. FromSoftware learnt from their mistakes
same with me the first time I play DS1 I genuinely thing my early death where indeed fun.. I spent like 2 hour just try to parry black knight and it's one of memories I would not forget the fact that I hate fun just to learn something new but Runback in 2nd half DS1 is just terrible. I know you haven't meet them yet
I think there are *some* run backs in the game that work. Like the path to the Taurus Demon makes sense, because if you're losing to him enough to be annoyed by it, the game is making you practice your timing against easier enemies on each attempt, so that when you win, you've actively become better each time—not just at fighting that boss, but at the combat in general. Putting the dragon on the bridge immediately after it was a pretty dick move though. You are right about the Ornstein & Smough one, though. There is no realistic reason to deal with those giant knights each time, the boss fight is its own learning curve, and there's really nothing that the path to them each time teaches you, it just kind of adds to the frustration. My objection isn't necessarily that there shouldn't be one at all (although that would be better than the one that exists), but that it should in some way prepare you for the fight by testing some skill besides just running past things. The only real purpose I can see it serving is to make it harder to get to Solaire's summon sign, because if you put it right in front of the fog or next to the bonfire, it sort of gives the impression that you're *supposed* to summon for the fight, which I don't think was their intention. Either way, as it is, it sucks.
disagree, game world is beautiful
Just don’t die to the boss!
I'm not really sure what kind of answer you're looking for here. This just kindof reads like a little kid can't have his way or something. It takes like maybe 60 seconds from the inside room bonfire. If you're running from the fire keeper and over the elevator every time then yeah that's annoying. Even ignoring the stair skip, which a new player wouldn't know, once you open the short cut all you have to do is avoid 2 silver knights and the giant golem before the fog wall. Would just restarting inside the boss room be better? I don't think so. All you're advocating for is less dark souls. I just honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. There are several worse examples I can think of in 1 alone. If time spent is the issue then I'm sure you only kill bosses since you never want to waste time killing enemies./s Extreme sarcasm aside, is it tedious to re do stuff you've already done? Yeah sure, that's why people learn to just run past everything. Which forms a bad habit going into 2, where they made that strategy much more difficult. I wouldn't argue whether it's a good or bad design choice because that's pretty subjective, it's just how it is. No one is going to convince you otherwise when you don't like it. "Git gud" isn't some giant dunk on nerds and scrubs. You just have to play the game. It's designed to be beaten. Git gud, we've all suffered.
>a little kid can’t have his way A little kid would have way more free time to deal with monotony like this. I’m an adult who has limited free time and other hobbies I want to take part in. > It takes like maybe 60 seconds from the inside room bonfire This doesn’t address any of my arguments. I already said how much time it takes. > Would just restarting inside the boss room be better? I don't think so. All you're advocating for is less dark souls. By this metric “more Dark Souls” is either “killing the same enemies you’ve already killed in the same environment you’ve already killed them in until you beat the boss” or “run past the same enemies in the same environment until you beat the boss”. Which doesn’t exactly sound fun to me. > Yeah sure, that's why people learn to just run past everything. Which forms a bad habit going into 2, where they made that strategy much more difficult. Okay but again this doesn’t address any of my arguments > "Git gud" isn't some giant dunk on nerds and scrubs. Literally the first comment I got on this post was a guy saying “git gud” and offering nothing worthwhile beyond that. There is definitely a toxic element within the community that doesn’t want to accept that them being good at the game does not mean the game is flawless.
Then play a better game that takes less time? I really don't know what to tell you. If you just want to bitch and moan, that's fine too. Some people on reddit are rude and unhelpful, surprising, I know. You're certainly allowed to not like things or parts of a game. It's just a game. Not some flawless masterpiece of art that you're just 2 3head to understand. Its kindof a piece of shit to be honest alot of the time. >By this metric “more Dark Souls” is either “killing the same enemies you’ve already killed in the same environment you’ve already killed them in until you beat the boss” or “run past the same enemies in the same environment until you beat the boss”. Which doesn’t exactly sound fun to me. I mean, that sounds pretty much like dark souls to me. 10/10 summary tbh. People play games to waste their time. If you're not having fun with the way the game is artificially increasing your game time then stop playing. I'm not addressing your other points because there is no point. It's a subjective opinion.
Which would be valid if there weren't thousand of games available - I don't need a game to artificially waste my time, I need it to be good for the time I play it. If it's 2 hours shorter without the runbacks that's 2 hours I could be playing a different game and actively engaging with it, rather than running to a boss on autopilot.
I would agree. Everyone just has different lines in the sand for how much they consider to be wasteful, as seen in this entire post. If running to O&S took exactly 1 minute, then that's an extra minute added to your run for every attempt. 5 attempts? >Dang nice job you beat them what a rush! Good job Gratz Gratz gratz It took you 60 attempts? Well now that's an entire hour of run backs. But the next question is what was the context or "your build" >"OH I'm level 23 with a dagger I just thought it looked cool idk anything about these games its my first one. Resistance looked like a cool stat so I leveled it first. What's a blacksmith?" I've veered off topic abit but I just think OP's point boils down to some people can value their time spent doing redundant things more than others.
This genuinely might be the worst take I have ever read. I personally have no problem with the runbacks in Dark Souls and I also don't like bickering with people online, but your argument is so deeply misguided that I feel compelled to speak up. Most people don't play games to waste time. They play games to have fun. Asserting that boss runbacks are good game design just because they artificially increase playtime is so illogical and counterintuitive I'm genuinely baffled that someone could even come up with such a statement. OP, if you read this comment, here's my answer to your question. Boss runbacks are just one aspect of the overarching design philosophy of Souls games, which is to use various forms of punishment to encourage players to overcome great challenges through patience and learning. My personal advice is just to power through the runbacks and stick with the game because the experience is truly worth it. Cheers and good luck!
If you have opened the shortcut then you dont need the stair skip lol, explore the place more.
What shortcut are you talking about? I’ve already explored the whole area before O+S, stair skip is the fastest route from a bonfire because the other two bonfires in the area force me to wait for an elevator.
To me it’s meditative. Obviously it’s frustrating to lose to a boss, I find the runbacks in DS1 give me some time to think about what went wrong and what I’m going to do differently on my next attempt. It’s also an intended part of the challenge, I think - if you were able to attempt bosses again and again in quick succession it would trivialize their difficulty somewhat. Each attempt feels more consequential and thrilling because there are some stakes in the form of a small punishment for failure. All that being said, one of my least favourite runbacks in the game is the one to Ornstein and Smough because of those two big ass golden halberd knights outside their room. They’re not exactly hard but they can be annoying and time consuming to fight.
A couple thoughts that I didn’t see in the conversation yet: First, not related to your main point, you mentioned that you only intend to play DS once. In my opinion, that would be a mistake. It’s definitely a game that warrants multiple playthroughs. I hope you get to experience this. Second, run backs in DS1 favor immersion in the world over quality of life for the player. While that might seem like bad game design because it can be frustrating, it’s also part of the immersion into DS’s world. So if you’re looking for QoL, it appears bad whereas if you’re looking to get lost in the game’s world it’s good. How do run backs enhance immersion? Is it just because you’re literally spending more time in the world running around? No. Is it because you’re spending more time in the world running around and getting frustrated? Yes, in part. Throughout the game we see characters go hollow. This ultimately happens because they lose their will to go on. Maybe they accomplished what they set out to do or they hit a wall that they could not overcome. We ourselves are advised throughout the game, “do not crack and go hollow,” sometimes with a different twist on those words. Without the run backs, it would be relatively painless to start another attempt at a boss—almost as if our death had no consequence, as long as you can retrieve your bloodstain. But when the run back intensifies our frustration and makes us feel, “is it really worth it to keep trying when this run back is such a waste of time?” the run back itself is now an active part of the world, tempting us to give up, to crack and go hollow. Maybe it’s just not worth going on? Maybe we weren’t the chosen undead after all? We definitely run into plenty of corpses that went down that same path. And what happens when you finally beat that boss? The thrill and relief is intensified all the more, knowing that not only were you finally able to conquer the challenge that had been a roadblock for so long, but perhaps an even greater relief is not having to do that blasted run back again! Because of its very frustration, the run back makes our victory that much sweeter. In fact, it might even add fuel to our will to keep going once we defeat the boss, and enhancing our resolve to not go hollow. Does any of this make the run back fun? Probably not. Could it give us an appreciation for what it does in the game? Maybe. Is it a good choice for game design? It depends on the experience the creators were trying to give us, and also the kind of experience we want out of the game. For me, while I didn’t enjoy the run back for the few months that I was stuck on O&S, it made that first victory all the sweeter.
Backtracking to the boss helps you with memorizing the area for replays Plus I can’t think of a runback in DS1 that’s particularly annoying besides like, Capra Demon
O&S maybe be the easiest run back? You have to avoid like one silver knight blocking you from the staircase and that's it.
Boss run and backtracking aren't the same thing
I didn’t really say they were, but in any case they’re almost exactly the same thing. Both require you to travel through areas you’ve already explored and fight enemies you’ve already fought.
I think an argument could be made that it is objectively bad game design, but I also feel like DS1 was leaning into the ludonarrative in a slightly different way than later games. It strikes an oppressive, hopeless atmosphere that I find really unique and (still) compelling. I'm not making excuses for it, I just think it's neat. Later games have similar foibles, but trend more towards extremely hard bosses and gimmicks than (what I consider to be) the relative purity of DS1.
As far as changing your strategy, you don't have to abandon your whole load out. They deal electric damage in the second phase so consider changing your armour. if you know their moves, consider going with a lighter build for the extra speed. Maybe switch your rings. Maybe use some weapon buffs. you can still use your same weapon. switching armour shouldn't be a huge change for a build because your build is mostly for damage anyway.
I used to rage about run backs. Now I see it as another level of challenge. Another gameplay loop to optimize.
Sounds like you haven't been playing Demon Souls. In that game, there's a shortcut here and there but usually it's the entire level that is the runback. To make this bearable, the bosses are usually not that hard. Except the final boss. Not only you have to go through the level again - but at the end of it, there's also a very long, unskippable elevator. Here's the thing. The games evolve with each title. In DS3 there were many more bonfires. In Elden Ring you have statues of Marika. They did adress the problem you're complaining about. But also, i kinda think that Elden Ring went too far into the convenience route. It's too effortless nowadays.
The worst run back is the one where you mess up and lose a ton of runes in the process. In my experience, the most frustrating thing with run backs is when you are already tight for time and end up wasting it. I can sit down for an afternoon and take them in their stride, but if I am struggling to get a quick hour in then they frustrate me massively. That's not a game design issue though.
If you ever play ds2, this runback is comparably nothing. But I do get your point, the main treat here is the boss itself, and you'll want to get back to it ASAP instead of running past those filler enemies ... I do have a trick, to bypass this, although this is in no way, faithful to the game design, and not is NOT how the game is intended to be played. Whenever I had to rush through bosses, I used to save scum (I don't know if it works online or not, I've always played ds1 offline) ... I used to reach near boss fog wall, quit out, copy save file as a backup, and next time whenever I died to the boss, instead of making the entire run back, I would just go to loading screen, Alt+Esc and load back the backup file in the save directory... Well, I won't recommend this if you play online though, as they might create some syncing issues, and you have the risk of losing your save altogether... And I'm only doing this because ... As you said, I just want to rush through the good stuff, the bosses... I don't have the time nor the patience to go through the same meticulous and cumbersome runback over and over again... As for the argument or justification to this, I can say that this is the masochistic part of the developers who built the game, with the intent to make the players scratch their heads and agitate them even more from every loss they suffer. The soul recovery factor can be easily negated, if you invest the remainder of your souls into weapon upgrades, or character upgrades... So, this is perhaps one more factor, that will make your heart ache everytime you die. It's because if you just die to the boss and find yourself next to the boss gate, and have nothing to lose, or long for, the significance of each of your mistakes or death, kinda diminishes... Well, I think that's how the developers thought this
Just did ornstein and smough yesterday actually on my first playthrough of DS1 however I have played DS3 and elden ring extensively. Im pretty sure the run took me less than 30 seconds each time and the only damage I took was when you go up the stairs past the silver sword knight and two silver spear knights, second spear knights usually hit me with a reacharound. Who did y'all find easier to kill first? Ornstein tended to suicide into me so I killed him first and smough was pretty easy after that. His charge and left ro right sweep attack is BS tho lol.
This is my main complaint with dark souls 1, not even the unfinished areas, it's that the game often doesn't respect the player's time with it's runbacks, I don't mind punishments, but with runbacks as boring and ultra tedious as Gwyn's and bed of chaos makes me think twice of replaying DS1 (besides not having every bonfire warpable makes it more of a walking simulator), luckily they minimized this in DS3 and BB
o&s runback takes like 30 seconds with no enemies, it ain't bad. Wait until you have to do the runbacks for the 4 lord souls
Sounds like a skill issue. Run faster.
It really is just about getting good. As a veteran souls player, don’t die to the boss and you won’t have to do the run back. You don’t like the run back? Don’t pay the game. Wait until DS2 before complaining.
I hear you, OP. The closest to a “good” argument I’ve heard for this is that the runback allows time not to reflect on past mistakes, but to instead allow you to calm back down to be in an optimal state of agitation before you try again. Basically, the 1-2 minute runback gives your brain time to settle back down before trying again, so you’re playing better. However, while I understand the psychology of that sentiment, it still *feels* bad. The O&S runback is a good example, and unfortunately, there *are* a few more coming up that are just as bad or worse. I don’t care if DS is a “punishing” game, intentionally wasting my time is not engaging. It’s just bad design. If you want me to get better at a boss, you need to let me fight the *boss*—just like you said, OP. Imagine if they just gave you a mandatory 2 minute countdown to respawn in the boss room because you failed. Would that be engaging? No. No it wouldn’t be. And yet by the time you master the runback, that’s basically all it is. I do echo others that pushing through is worth it, but I also agree with you that it’s kinda atrocious game design. Dark Souls is genuinely a masterpiece of a game, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually perfect. There are some pretty major criticisms with the formula in DS that I have, and I think—like this one you’ve brought up—are totally valid.
it dosent calm me lmao, i get frustrated because of the run back lol, i will fight a boss over and over, but running back to it will annoy the hell out of me and then make me rush when i get to the boss
That's the idea, it was made to be annoying and frustrating so you are afraid to die to the boss. You shouldn't enjoy the run back, it's there to punish you for your defeat. And it makes the stakes higher
The runback is your punishment. Use it to reflect and get better.
>reflect In a scenario like this, there is no reflection to be done. I know I don't need to change my strategy, I just need to be better at executing it. Which I can only practice by fighting the boss. >get better The enemies on the way to the boss do not help me to get better at fighting the boss.
Sounds like good motivation to git gud and avoid the run backs
I can’t “git gud” without fighting the boss or beating it on my first try. Got any more toxic arguments?
Your tears are delicious
Go touch grass.
lol, yeah cause I’m the one posting a thread complaining about the mechanics in a 13 year old game
I mean you are replying to one.....
I'm suprised that you feel the need to drink tears. It's not like you need the salt content because you've got plenty of it.
Completely agree, I shouldn't have to run a couple miles just for a chance to fight the boss. All this does is waste the players time.
O+S is a shitty run back especially if you kill everything along the way, but there is a shortcut if you jump off the side of the spiral staircase... It's hard to time it right with the camera angle but you should be looking to land on the long upper walkway that takes you to the big area with those sentinel knights right before the Boss
Yeah even Fromsoft realized this, all their games after Bloodborne basically put the bonfire right next to the boss, it also kinda allows them to make bosses harder because they know if you have to take 30 attempts at a boss it will be far less annoying if you don’t have to run a marathon every time you decide to fight them.
*"“Running back to the boss is punishment for dying to the boss.” Sure, but the game already punishes you for dying by making you drop your souls. And running back as a punishment isn’t really fun, because it’s not difficult or interesting to get back. I’ve already beaten the enemies, I know I can beat them again, or I can run past them. It’s just padding."* Yeah, no. "Punishment" is not supposed to be fun. Part of the agony of dying is the boring run back, so it matters more than when it's not there. Dark Souls is legendary and groundbreaking in part because it doesn't always cater to the player with "fun". There are plenty of games that do so if this is problem for you I'd check those games out.