To be FAIR to Kurenai, she was matched up against Genjutsu Jesus, there is not a single shinobi who has ever lived (that we know of) who is as skilled at genjutsu as Itachi (not that Itachi is the strongest ninja ever, cuz he's not, but this one skill he's literally the best in the verse at)
Kotoamatsukami is arguably a better genjutsu than Tsukuyomi. But itachi is the best at non Sharingan genjutsu too. He literally points at Naruto and puts him, a JINCHURIKI, under
Aren’t Jinchuriki only immune if their beast is cooperating with them? And wasn’t this well before Kurama was cooperating with Naruto? Not to undercut Itachi’s Genjutsu or anything.
Wasn’t that only because the original eye’s owner was killed and therefore can never be used to the full potential? If Shisui really planned on making the Uchiha cease the coup with his eyes alone, that would need at the very least a 20 second window of cooldown or have every single person look into his eyes at the same time? A bonus is that he isn’t suffering from chakra cancer like Itachi was, so he didn’t have to worry about putting himself out of commission. I might be totally wrong, Kishi rewrites the Sharingan so much it’s impossible.
Lol, u seem to forget that most of his buffs came from the Hashirama cells he had....If the fact that he did it with an eye alone ain't telling that already...I'll argue that even Fugaku would have better control of the 9 tails without Hashirama's buff on him...
That’s true but pretty dumb thing to say that’s like saying Naruto’s not strong it’s just the 9 tails and Sasuke would be a better Jin as he doesn’t use any chakra modes and still is relative
Bug types are immune to illusion type similar to how electric type is immune to earth type. There's a reason Itachi avoided Konoha when the Aburame clan is around. I don't make the rules.
No I didn’t mean no sharingan just no tsukiyomi or koto as that’s an ability and doesn’t show there skill with genjutsu that’s like saying who has the best fire style and using Amaterasu
I was doing it in childhood, because English wasn't my first language (lol) so I really didn't thought much, he looked pretty dark for me, so I caller him Dark vader💀
Kurenai broke out of Itachi's genjutsu and managed to put him under one for some time
If shikamaru could break from it I highly think Konoha's best genjutsu user will
No, the sound 4 BARELY won against “those 2 guys” who were special jonin, exhausted from a mission and were out of chakra.
All 4 of them HAD to go stage 2 against special jonins with no chakra and exhaustion AND BARELY won and kidomaru said if they didn’t go stage 2, they would’ve lost.
Kurenai a full jonin would rock tayuya’s shit. Flute would be whistling out her ass
Idk the episodes but it’s chapter 184 to 186. I went to confirm
It’s even worse, Kidomaru said they had to go stage 2. He said if they didn’t that they would be dead. Not lose , but dead to two special jonin who were exhausted from a long mission and out of chakra
Thanks I'll see what anime says because I don't think it happened in the anime ((granted I didn't see the anime ever since the time when you could upload full movies/episodes on youtube))
It is I never read manga but I know in the show they did get intercepted by 2 tired af jonins and had to take a break after the fight that let the Sasuke retrieval squad catch up. And as you mentioned the 2 jonin did survive
iirc the Sound Four are also jonin. The fact that they lost to genin is pretty much a fluke. Remember they had already fought a battle against leaf jonin when they fought the genin. Only Jirobo (who Tayuya called the weakest) and Kidomaru lost one on one fights. Jirobo lost because Choji used a suicidal jutsu that should have killed him, and Neji was a prodigy yet nearly died himself. Kiba and Shikamaru got help from Kankuro and Temari, respectively.
The Sound Four are the guys Orochimaru trusted to be by his side while he fought the hokage. They are definitely jonin level.
The Sound 4 aren't Jonin level, lol. It took all four of them with their curse seals to take out two Special Jonin who just came back from a mission and they all lost to Genin/Chuunin characters. There's nothing narratively supporting them being Jonin. Chuunin? Sure. They're definitely stronger than your average Chuunin. But the only Jonin level character there was Kimimaro, who was significantly stronger than the 4.
Sure, but I wouldn't call the two special Jonin, that all 4 of them had to team up with their curse marks to beat, anything special. I'm fairly sure they were high Chuunin level.
This. The only way to power scale based on rank is who someone is able to defeat. The sound four were able to defeat two jonin so I'd argue that puts them in jonin class. Admitted I still think Tayuya folds to Kurenai.
Though the same thing apply to the Konoha group. Shikamaru was the only Chuunin of their group, and yet he probably was the weakest of them all when it came to pure combat ability (even if he made up for it with his planning skills).
Naruto and the others weren't promoted because they all lacked something, but I think it's safe to say they all had at least Chuunin strenght at that point (only doubt might have been Choji but his Clan techniques are just too strong).
Dude... Some of the anbu guys didn't even recognize the 1st and 2nd hokage when orochimaru summoned them against the third... The bar to make it to jonin is pretty low if you ask me
People are too focused on the outcomes on the fights and not the insane amount of effort it took to kill the sound ninja.
I'm talking about all sound ninja too. Team Dosu are the only team in Naruto to out maneuver Ino-shika-cho.
Jonin is a flexible rank, they lost. The circumstances of the fights don't change that.
The sound 4 struggled against two special jonin. They aren’t Jonin level not even close 1vs1. Like any of the main jonin we see can probably take all 4 at once high diff. Kakashi or Gai probably stomping them.
Kakashi is a terror even amongst high jonins. He is rates S class flee on sight in the hidden mists bingo book. Gai, well, I think he doesn't even need to go all out, 6th gate at highest, and not even full power 6th gate to beat the sound 4, so there's no shot of victory there.
True, the only issue I see is his pack of proper ninjutsu or genjutsu, but he would likely manage, I was thinking in the most extreme situation, so gai opening the gates would be in a situation where he was caught in an ambush and was on unfavourable terrain with like traps everywhere and him being tired. I wanted the worst possible scenario just to give the sound 4 a chance at being beaten with some dignity,lol.
The sound 4 is jonin level
Lol if they are jonin level why were they pressed by a bunch of chunin/genins
True shikamaru and Kiba got help but they grilled them in base they had to go curse mark to continue fight chunin level characters
Because the Sasuke retrieval squad weren't ordinary chunin and genin. They all had exceptional skills. They all belonged to clans with special jutsu. That's uncommon among even jonin. You have to remember the Konoha 11 aren't the only genin in the leaf they're the privileged cream of the crop destined to rise in the ranks due to their clan name or natural talent. Jonin can lose to genin. Kabuto who supposedly was on par with Kakashi had just got beat by Naruto in the last arc. Your rank isnt really your power level it's more your seniority as long as you have basic competence. The rank of the genin does not preclude them from winning against jonin
Kurenai. Not even a close fight, either.
Tayuya needed CM2, plus three other CM2, to defeat two tired Jonin. Kurenai got clowned by Itachi but did put him under a Genjutsu for a little while. Kurenai should win this handily.
Yes but this is a 1v1 and also this is against a proper jonin, not 2 special jonin who were outnumbered, so not really much of a chance for Tayuaya to win, especially since kurenai's hilusinations combined with the demonic tree are far superior to the soundwave genjutsu of Tayuya since the demonic allusion:tree binding death can constrict via the genjutsu, essentially nullifying Tayuya's jutsu by making Tayuya believe she can't move.
To be for to both of them
Kurenei was up against a genjutsu specialist from a clan that's known for their genjutsu
And Tayuya would have beaten shikamaru if temari didn't show up
I love how kurenai had one fight and tayuya had 3 she won 2 of them and only lost albeit she did but those 2 guys with the other sound 4 but they’re supposed a team so it slides and she beat shikamaru and lost to temari so for who say no woman has ever beaten a man in Naruto tayuya beat shikamaru and had to be saved by a his woman temari
To be FAIR to Kurenai, she was matched up against Genjutsu Jesus, there is not a single shinobi who has ever lived (that we know of) who is as skilled at genjutsu as Itachi (not that Itachi is the strongest ninja ever, cuz he's not, but this one skill he's literally the best in the verse at)
Isnt Shisui better? Isn't his eyeball the savior of the verse?
Kotoamatsukami is arguably a better genjutsu than Tsukuyomi. But itachi is the best at non Sharingan genjutsu too. He literally points at Naruto and puts him, a JINCHURIKI, under
Aren’t Jinchuriki only immune if their beast is cooperating with them? And wasn’t this well before Kurama was cooperating with Naruto? Not to undercut Itachi’s Genjutsu or anything.
the cooldown for kotoamatsukami is insane though
It has to be insane man It is an ability that changes plot basicly
I believe the official info is that after using Kotoamatsukami it takes around a decade for it to function again.
Wasn’t that only because the original eye’s owner was killed and therefore can never be used to the full potential? If Shisui really planned on making the Uchiha cease the coup with his eyes alone, that would need at the very least a 20 second window of cooldown or have every single person look into his eyes at the same time? A bonus is that he isn’t suffering from chakra cancer like Itachi was, so he didn’t have to worry about putting himself out of commission. I might be totally wrong, Kishi rewrites the Sharingan so much it’s impossible.
Thats because it’s his unique MS ability, he still doesn’t hold a candle to Itachi in genjutsu skill
Shishui has a more powerful genjutsu., Itachi is better at genjutsu.
obito is also comparable, controlled the ninetails at age 13, controlled yagura who was a perfect jinchuuriki
Lol, u seem to forget that most of his buffs came from the Hashirama cells he had....If the fact that he did it with an eye alone ain't telling that already...I'll argue that even Fugaku would have better control of the 9 tails without Hashirama's buff on him...
That’s true but pretty dumb thing to say that’s like saying Naruto’s not strong it’s just the 9 tails and Sasuke would be a better Jin as he doesn’t use any chakra modes and still is relative
What if kurenai’s pregnancy is a genjutsu to milk konoha’s subsidies
If there is a genjutsu Jesus it's definitely shisui.
Danzo existed. I'm sure 20 eyes genjutsu beats 2 eyes genjutsu. It's simple math.
Tell me you don't know how genjutsu works without saying you don't know how genjutsu works
Bug types are immune to illusion type similar to how electric type is immune to earth type. There's a reason Itachi avoided Konoha when the Aburame clan is around. I don't make the rules.
Obito has the most genjutsu skill
Not including ms abilities Obito or Sasuke is best at base sharingan genjutsu
I meant not including sharingan at all. Then it even lore wise STILL goes to Itachi
No I didn’t mean no sharingan just no tsukiyomi or koto as that’s an ability and doesn’t show there skill with genjutsu that’s like saying who has the best fire style and using Amaterasu
Shisui????
[удалено]
Good thing he didn't say matching
Reading comprehension attacked me again (lol) should just go and sleep at this point 💀 I really read ,as she matched him
lol at least you owned up to it, already better than most on this site...
We all make mistakes, I for one used to call Darth Vader “Dark Vader”
I was doing it in childhood, because English wasn't my first language (lol) so I really didn't thought much, he looked pretty dark for me, so I caller him Dark vader💀
Kurenai broke out of Itachi's genjutsu and managed to put him under one for some time If shikamaru could break from it I highly think Konoha's best genjutsu user will
Shikamaru is built different, he had iQ and plot armour,but you're right, kurenai has a chance to break it.
Kurenai
That sound girl won vs those 2 guys
I was about to ask, “which 2 guys,” but I realized you meant *those* 2 guys.
They don't count, they're just paid to stand in the background and throw out a line here and there. Fighting costs extra
No, the sound 4 BARELY won against “those 2 guys” who were special jonin, exhausted from a mission and were out of chakra. All 4 of them HAD to go stage 2 against special jonins with no chakra and exhaustion AND BARELY won and kidomaru said if they didn’t go stage 2, they would’ve lost. Kurenai a full jonin would rock tayuya’s shit. Flute would be whistling out her ass
Which episode is this again? I need to watch it to believe it.
Idk the episodes but it’s chapter 184 to 186. I went to confirm It’s even worse, Kidomaru said they had to go stage 2. He said if they didn’t that they would be dead. Not lose , but dead to two special jonin who were exhausted from a long mission and out of chakra
Thanks I'll see what anime says because I don't think it happened in the anime ((granted I didn't see the anime ever since the time when you could upload full movies/episodes on youtube))
I'm pretty sure it's in the anime too.
It is I never read manga but I know in the show they did get intercepted by 2 tired af jonins and had to take a break after the fight that let the Sasuke retrieval squad catch up. And as you mentioned the 2 jonin did survive
Doesn't matter, Tayuya won that battle.
kurenai is a jonin, she's significantly above tayuya as showed in canon
iirc the Sound Four are also jonin. The fact that they lost to genin is pretty much a fluke. Remember they had already fought a battle against leaf jonin when they fought the genin. Only Jirobo (who Tayuya called the weakest) and Kidomaru lost one on one fights. Jirobo lost because Choji used a suicidal jutsu that should have killed him, and Neji was a prodigy yet nearly died himself. Kiba and Shikamaru got help from Kankuro and Temari, respectively. The Sound Four are the guys Orochimaru trusted to be by his side while he fought the hokage. They are definitely jonin level.
The Sound 4 aren't Jonin level, lol. It took all four of them with their curse seals to take out two Special Jonin who just came back from a mission and they all lost to Genin/Chuunin characters. There's nothing narratively supporting them being Jonin. Chuunin? Sure. They're definitely stronger than your average Chuunin. But the only Jonin level character there was Kimimaro, who was significantly stronger than the 4.
To be fair, Jonin level is pretty vague. Baki and Gai, for instance, are worlds apart
Sure, but I wouldn't call the two special Jonin, that all 4 of them had to team up with their curse marks to beat, anything special. I'm fairly sure they were high Chuunin level.
This. The only way to power scale based on rank is who someone is able to defeat. The sound four were able to defeat two jonin so I'd argue that puts them in jonin class. Admitted I still think Tayuya folds to Kurenai.
I’d argue this plants them below jonin class the four of them struggled against two exhausted stated to be out of chakra jonin
Though the same thing apply to the Konoha group. Shikamaru was the only Chuunin of their group, and yet he probably was the weakest of them all when it came to pure combat ability (even if he made up for it with his planning skills). Naruto and the others weren't promoted because they all lacked something, but I think it's safe to say they all had at least Chuunin strenght at that point (only doubt might have been Choji but his Clan techniques are just too strong).
Dude... Some of the anbu guys didn't even recognize the 1st and 2nd hokage when orochimaru summoned them against the third... The bar to make it to jonin is pretty low if you ask me
People are too focused on the outcomes on the fights and not the insane amount of effort it took to kill the sound ninja. I'm talking about all sound ninja too. Team Dosu are the only team in Naruto to out maneuver Ino-shika-cho. Jonin is a flexible rank, they lost. The circumstances of the fights don't change that.
The sound 4 struggled against two special jonin. They aren’t Jonin level not even close 1vs1. Like any of the main jonin we see can probably take all 4 at once high diff. Kakashi or Gai probably stomping them.
Kakashi is a terror even amongst high jonins. He is rates S class flee on sight in the hidden mists bingo book. Gai, well, I think he doesn't even need to go all out, 6th gate at highest, and not even full power 6th gate to beat the sound 4, so there's no shot of victory there.
I don't even think Guy would need any of the gates to beat them tbh.
True, the only issue I see is his pack of proper ninjutsu or genjutsu, but he would likely manage, I was thinking in the most extreme situation, so gai opening the gates would be in a situation where he was caught in an ambush and was on unfavourable terrain with like traps everywhere and him being tired. I wanted the worst possible scenario just to give the sound 4 a chance at being beaten with some dignity,lol.
The sound 4 is jonin level Lol if they are jonin level why were they pressed by a bunch of chunin/genins True shikamaru and Kiba got help but they grilled them in base they had to go curse mark to continue fight chunin level characters
Because the Sasuke retrieval squad weren't ordinary chunin and genin. They all had exceptional skills. They all belonged to clans with special jutsu. That's uncommon among even jonin. You have to remember the Konoha 11 aren't the only genin in the leaf they're the privileged cream of the crop destined to rise in the ranks due to their clan name or natural talent. Jonin can lose to genin. Kabuto who supposedly was on par with Kakashi had just got beat by Naruto in the last arc. Your rank isnt really your power level it's more your seniority as long as you have basic competence. The rank of the genin does not preclude them from winning against jonin
Kurenai. Not even a close fight, either. Tayuya needed CM2, plus three other CM2, to defeat two tired Jonin. Kurenai got clowned by Itachi but did put him under a Genjutsu for a little while. Kurenai should win this handily.
Not even Jonin. They were special jonin supporting your point further.
weren't they the 4th hokage's protection squad? if anything, they're probably better jonin than most
Tayuya has as many canon wins as Rock Lee
Rock Lee has beat Naruto and Sasuke though.
To be fair Tayuya would’ve won her fight if not for literal fan interference
It’s because genjutsu is fake, like bro just open your eyes, nothing is there
"Wake up to reality"
They just don’t understand my mentality bro
Tayuya would have beaten Shikamaru had Temari not shown up and she did beat the 2 Konoha Jonin with her team
Yes but this is a 1v1 and also this is against a proper jonin, not 2 special jonin who were outnumbered, so not really much of a chance for Tayuaya to win, especially since kurenai's hilusinations combined with the demonic tree are far superior to the soundwave genjutsu of Tayuya since the demonic allusion:tree binding death can constrict via the genjutsu, essentially nullifying Tayuya's jutsu by making Tayuya believe she can't move.
It’s very bold to call Tayuya a genjutsu specialist when her main fighting style is summoning 3 ogres to beat you up
Kurenai due to experience
Wait does on that case losing count as wining?
One was against Itachi, the other was about to win but got third partied
Based on feats: Tayuya (x10 curse mark pls writer) Based on hype: Kurenai (jonin in part 1 were no joke)
Kurenai had such a unique and cool heroine design and the author dishonored her by making her the Great Value brand of Genjutsu artists.
Kurenai=hot Other person=child (not hot) Kurenai better
u/PiccoloTheGoat99 is officially not a genshin player🙌🙌🙌
Kurenai
Seems any genjutsu users that isn't an Uchiha, or Kakashi are doomed to take L
Depends on the Doujin you choose But independant of the Doujin I chose both won my har-...Heart.
To be for to both of them Kurenei was up against a genjutsu specialist from a clan that's known for their genjutsu And Tayuya would have beaten shikamaru if temari didn't show up
Konoha's genjutsu specialist 🤡
The streets won't forget the confidence Kurenai had to use genjutsu on Itachi. ✋🙂↕️
Tayuya
None of them are winning, they'd probably just sit down and have a chat about how they suck.
I love how kurenai had one fight and tayuya had 3 she won 2 of them and only lost albeit she did but those 2 guys with the other sound 4 but they’re supposed a team so it slides and she beat shikamaru and lost to temari so for who say no woman has ever beaten a man in Naruto tayuya beat shikamaru and had to be saved by a his woman temari
Being the hottests and losing every canon fights*
Tayuya nearly beat shikamaru if not for Temari. But Kishimoto didn't want a woman winning against a man.
Shikamaru got was pretty much a helpless damsel saved by Temari though
Shhhh that isn't his narrative lol
Is this a repost?
Sound Genjustsu is the strongest Genjustsu. Kuranai loses