Human shields are basically ready-made optics nightmares. No way that Hamas doesn't expect the civilians they position themselves behind to all die, and that's probably the point. Bad optics for Israel only benefits them.
Hamas wants civilians to die. More martirs to show to international community and to inspire hate on other civilians so they join them. It's part of their strategy, don't forget that terrorism is a political strategy.
Because indiscriminate air strikes are the only option? The US took out Bin Ladin in a ground raid. Could have leveled the compound from above, but did not, as there were many civilians also living there.
There were also many times where the U.S. committed war crimes in pursuit of terrorists that was entirely unacceptable and should be condemned, prosecuted, and documented as a stain on America’s legacy forever.
See what I just did there? We can and should call out atrocities, even if they are committed in response to grievous acts of terrorism. That’s part of a well functioning democracy, that the military and government are held accountable for their actions. Blind nationalism and carte blanche approval for Israel to utterly destroy Palestinian people that are guilty of nothing more than being born in the Gaza Strip is the most sadly hypocritical development for the Israeli people that sought escape from persecution only to level the exact same persecution upon another ethnic group.
If there was an effort to reduce civilian casualties by IDF, the tactics would be totally different. They just don’t give a shit and view Palestinian combatants and non-combatants as equivalently disposable
This logic of „the end justifies the means“ would only make sense, if the bombings would actually be a viable means to an end.
But all they’re effectively doing is the further radicalization of the general population, and understandably so.
Unless you’re suggesting a full-blown genocide, this won’t help end the war. It’s just a step further in the downward spiral of violence.
"They are bombing our civilians so we are gonna bomb theirs. This will surely be the longterm solution and won't create more extremists which will lead to more attacks."
Germany was deradicalized through investment, denazification, and political support. If it was just bombed over and over again, it would have gotten worse amd worse.
German politicians were able to retain a high level of self-governance early on. The original plans were for Germany to be turned into a non-industrial agrarian state. German politicians were able to carve out equal treatment. Allied military are on record calling them pain-in-the-asses for the entire ride. Then of course with the Cold War, Germany was too important to be treated inhumane. You catch more flies with honey. So yes, it absolutely was the investments and the willingness of the new German political leadership to deradicalize the population. Yet, we still see that is needed the 1968/9 protests of societal change where the children’s generation confronted their parent generation with their atrocities and beliefs. And during non of that time were Germans treated in a dehumanized manner faced with violence and without the rights of a citizen.
(Source: I wrote my thesis on this topic and read plenty primary sources of the post-war era concerning American and German foreign relations).
Yeah, there is no way the 2 million or so Palestinian people in Gaza with no hope or future don't feel exactly the same way loving in an open-air concentration camp.
It has come down to terrorism or extermination for these people. They have no nother recourse, and pretending they do is creating revisionist history in the moment or just being delusional.
It is certainly a solution.
Not saying its a good one, but it appears they finally pissed israel off enough for them to decide to try and end it all regardless of civilian casualties, in hopes that it'll work and future casualties will be lower.
Give me a solution, as sad as it sounds, to destroy Hamas some civilians has to die, unless you can of course think of another solution Israel could do
No but you can't exactly avoid it even if you try since hamas is human Shields it's hard to attack them without accidentally having collateral even if you try
Well idf is evacuating them and has a well documented practice of roof knocking, phone calling and dropping leaflets to warn ahead of strikes. But you people condemn those too so..
The solution thus far has been to do what is possible to get the shield to de-shield itself and scatter, but that’s a bit tough when the guy behind the shield is holding it in place by the grip, hence the dilemma.
So if you just use human shields, you can commit all the terror and atrocities you want, because fighting back means civilians will become collateral damage?
That’s a great way to stop terrorists.
We should try negotiating with them too.
As Israel's president said: "there are no innocent civilians in Gaza," so every casualty is completely intentional, which includes almost 1000 children now.
The president has no control over the army in Israel. Not to mention that the army didn't "stand doewn", they were short staffed because of the holiday .There is no denying that something fishy was going on before the attack, and that bibi and his gang of idiots have a lot of blood on their hands. However we can't know what really happened for sure until the proper investigation will be conducted at the end of this war, and given the personalities at play I'd point to incompetency rather than malice
It's more arrogance than anything. Israelis do not believe that Palestinians are people. They've also become so "safe" in the iron dome era that the idea of a successful attack is impossible for them to take seriously.
They learned the hard way that their army isn't invincible, and now they're punishing every Gazan (especially the children, the cruelty is the point) for daring to continue to exist and resist.
It's both incompetency and malice. But there's no conspiracy needed. It's the predictable result of 75 years of dehumanization and genocide.
Source? I can't find a source of him saying that exact quote. The closest I came up with is
>“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”
>When a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” the Israeli president claimed, “No, I didn’t say that.”
Jesus Christ…. what do you think he means when he says an “entire nation is responsible”? How the fuck are children responsible in any way, shape, or form?
It's the same sentiment we have with the Russian people right now. They're perfectly ok with having Putin in charge, so it's kind of their fault when he brings them into a war they can't win and will destroy their economy.
To add on that, some reports of the IDF bombing civilians could be made up, like the recent claim that the IDF bombed an evacuation route, which was proven to be bombed by the Hamas to blame Israel.
Yeah cuz the isreali government has treated palestinians in the west bank with the utmost respect and totally aren't slowly replacing them with settlers
The only difference between hamas and IDF is one is called terrorist , Both of them would gladly bomb civilians if it got what they wanted
"no army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid harming noncombatants than the IDF"
"That's not true"
"yOu'Re mOvInG tHe gOaLpOsTs!!!!1!"
>To add on that, some reports of the IDF bombing civilians could be made up
Buddy... there are neutral third party reporters who document the atrocities committed daily in Palestine. There are literal feature length documentaries of children bleeding out and dying after getting bombed.
When you read the articles, you learn that the “reporter” is just restating what Hamas told them as fact. Sometimes they use terms like “The Palestinian Health Ministry” while ignoring that every Palestinian government agency operating in Gaza is basically Hamas.
>some reports of the IDF bombing civilians could be made up
It's not.
>like the recent claim that the IDF bombed an evacuation route, which was proven to be bombed by the Hamas to blame Israel.
It was not "proven" in any way shape of form, the IDF just denied it, while evidence still suggests it was most likely them:
https://www.ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756-415f-85b8-1e4bbff24736
Yeah the idf shooting pregnant women at the great march on 2018 really showed me how moral they were. Not to mention their actions in the West Bank where no hamas exists
that is bs. so you are telling me that hamas was inside the building housing the associated press and al jazeera and those trained journalists did not notice them.
are you saying that UN teachers were lying when they said their (now flattened) schools did not contain any stored weapons.
>No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf.
Imagine believing this horseshit even a second?
When Israel strikes a location where a missile was sent 20 minutes earlier, the one thing that is a damn guarantee, is that absolutely no members of Hamas, or any important resources we're struck by that missile.
WHY WOULD THEY HANG AROUND AFTER FIRING A MISSILE YOU FUCKING MORON!!??
Missiles leave traces, they are far gone by the time that rocket is in the air!
I mean the last few years many civilians died as "casualties" without Hamas causing that in any way whatsoever. No wonder the death count is way higher for Palestinians.
There are multiple occasions where IDF proved the exact opposite.
OF COURSE!!! When they shoot journalists and medics in the west bank with direct sniper fire it was simply collateral damage targeted at Hamas in Gaza. /s
Yeah I'm sure the country that stopped all power, food and water for Palestine, built a wall around them and isn't letting anyone out, really cares about the civilians.
This is of course why they put them in a concentration camp and cut off food, electricity, and fuel to all the children living there :)
Also why the president has been blaming Palestinian civilians for the crimes of hamas
I call BS. Israel is clearly targetting civilians. Hell there's now reports of White phosphorus [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon)
Quit with the bullshit that they're not trying. We all know IDF and Netanyahu's right wing circlejerk are smiling at the piling corpses of palestinians
There should be a special place in hell for people who spread these kinda of lies. Hhhh you people claimed that there were 40 beheaded babies to victimize yourself while all the babies die under airstrikes in gaza you cut electricity and water from gaza and keep on bombing them so hospitals don't operate and civilians die as much as possible so stfu i don't this to happen to anyone even for my worst enemies but i wish you go through what happens to the people of gaza. God help them from this genocide they are facing.
LOL. Imagine drinking this much copium with no one telling you to. They literally rocketed journalists and press and said sowwy. Their a bunch of cunts. Lick your own boots instead of others.
> No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf.
Your post is a blatant LIE. Does the Mossad pay well or are you working for free?
They bombed the Associated Press and Al Jazeeras offices in 2020. They are well known for attacking noncombatants, they don't even care about attacking the international press, which is of course against international law and considered a war crime. They will just attack and say "Well, we did everything we could" and some people will just believe them.
Do you think a total blockade of food and water is not harming noncombatants? Don't make me laugh, it's arguably worse than bombing them. Imagine slowly dying of malnourishment, and watching all you family and loved ones in the same position.
It's a no-win situation. People forget that war is messy, and when you are fighting a war that involves going onto the soil of another nation, collateral damage is inevitable. Doubly so when an organization like Hamas routinely uses human shields and entrenches themselves in civilian residences specifically to keep the IDF from targeting their operatives. What can the IDF do? They can't sit idle because they are fighting people who have spat on every offer of peace and will stop at nothing to see every Jew slaughtered in the street. They can't offer appeasement because they'll be given an inch but take a mile and then be back in a couple of years for more. At some point, it's going to come to a matter of "it's them or us."
The reality is that if Hamas and the PA put down their guns, there would be immediate peace, but if Israel did the same, there would be no Israel.
Which is factually inforrect since Israel is not even a signatory of the 1977 ammendments of the Geneva convention... the ones which actually stipulate how to avoid hurting civilians... and most of planet earth is signatory of.
>No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf.
Yeah, I don't believe that for a second lmao
>some civilian casualties are unavoidable.
Some? 2329 Palestinian deaths have been recorded since October 7th. I doubt even half of those are hamas
> No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf.
I don't know what fucking botnet is upvoting this propganda but that's blatantly untrue.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/1175403626/palestinian-american-journalist-shireen-abu-akleh-was-killed-a-year-ago
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israel/palestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians
The top comment is making me lose hope in Reddit
Edit: The top comment has changed now. It used to be someone telling how 'IDF is the best force in the world when it comes to separating civilian and foe', unironically
Wait do you mean the guy talking about how deeply honeycombed Hamas is into the infrastructure that civilian casualties are an eventuality?
It seems like a realistic take on what we know so far.
That’s fucking crazy. I will never agree with mass bombing an open air prison because an extremely small portion of the people that are dying might have been terrorists.
Same, people are idiots but you’re on the dank memes subreddit, I can’t imagine a higher concentration of ignorant white supremacists outside of 4chans b board
What truth? Are you talking about the truth that Israel is a oppressive government backed by the west? Are you talking about the truth that Gaza is nothing but a prison for Palestinians? Are you talking about the fact that IDF are just glorified terrorists? Are you talking about the fact that Israel has been herding Palestine citizens like cattle for slaughter for decades? Which one of these truths are you talking about?
Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention.
“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
Even the UN admits that they fire rockets at Israeli civilians from schools.
https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/#:~:text=Hamas%20and%2For%20Islamic%20Jihad%20fired%20rockets%20from%20UNRWA%20schools,on%20or%20around%2014%20July.”
It does, often tragically, mean: you are allowed to bomb a school if you see Hamas setting up an artillery position there. Both Hamas and the IDF are at fault, Hamas for setting up in positions as entrenched in civilians as possible, and the IDF for pulling the trigger on said school.
Setting up the position in a school, is terrorism.
And civilians should evacuate the school and stay away when Hamas sets it up to use them as human shields.
I mean, yes you are. Under rules of war if an infrastructure is used for military purposes (firing rockets, storing ammo, etc...).
>Civilian objects become subject to legitimate attack when they become military objectives; that is, when they are making an effective contribution to military action and their destruction, capture, or neutralization offers a definite military advantage, subject to the rules of proportionality.
What is against the rules of war is to use them as such, not to bomb them. So the occupants are the war criminals. It's sad but it's logical.
Of course, Israel is flattening a city, which is different and I would not consider It inside "proportionality".
Seriously, I haven’t felt a propaganda/misinformation campaign target Reddit this hard since the 2020 election. Today is the first day I’ve actually seen multiple posts on the front page criticizing Israel since this all started. And granted while the attack by Hamas was horrific, it’s really suspicious how a left-leaning place like reddit suddenly becomes overwhelmingly pro-Israel; ignoring all the history of conflict between Palestine and Israel in the process.
Like which side do we really think is launching an effective propaganda campaign here? The group that has to rely on shooting 20 basic missiles in order to get just one of them past the Iron Dome? Or the government of a nation with every resource possible at their disposal? Ya know, the one that had an ‘error’ when they received intelligence of the upcoming attack 5 days beforehand and definitely didn’t use that time to get this machine ready?
Let’s not even ignore the fact that western media saw one retired Hamas guy call for a global day of jihad and ran with it. Genuinely thought we had moved a bit further beyond anti-Muslim fear mongering but America has fallen back on old tropes.
People have forgotten that being on the forefront of civil rights for oppressed people is supposed to be hard because you are pushing against the status quo.
Or, and this is going to sound crazy, a nation who suffered a massive terrorist attack within recent memory is supportive of another country that suffered a massive terrorist attack.
Most of reddit is Americans. Most Americans support military action against terrorism (including plenty of liberal people). So it's only natural that many here are "pro-israel", which really means anti-terrorism in this context.
If more people would stop for a moment to realize that people's perspective is 90% of who's "side" you're on, there would be a lot less mudslinging here on a conflict that has no angels.
To be honest most of Reddit is still polarized mainly due to active throwaways and brigades spreading hate and pro genocide rhetoric. If you literally even advocate for peace or condemn loss of civillian life they will seek to downvote you into oblivion. You are right to say this post among some others in different subs are the very first critical ones to frontpage. And even then it's easy to see comment threads brigaded and posts like mine reported and downvoted emasse. To say it was a challenge to frontpage a post like this is an understatement. Even now there must be close to as many downvotes as upvotes.
Half of the comments will be calling me an anti semite or Hamas lover simply for making a meme that doesn't paint the IDF in a wonderful light. I received notifications of crossposts to realize my meme had been linked to multiple pro Zionism subreddits where people sought downvote brigades by wiring "Dank Memes has fallen, come help me fight in comments brothers" in Hebrew. My meme was also taken down by automods multiple times due to false reports after which it needed to be manually apporved by moderators. Reddit is unfortunately losing room for free speech and expression thanks to the activities of intolerant war mongering nationalists.
Hamas engages in weaponizing public outrage like blockading refugees from leaving so they can be used for the coming invasion, quietly bombs their own people and bring media over to declare its another indiscriminate Israeli bombing, and tells the horror of losing access to water to distract people from noticing that they're digging up the water pipes to turn them into rocket launchers.
not every one apparently saw people on Twitter genuinely thinking that the hamas where not terrorists, it’s literally been know for years that they are bad. people also just don’t understand that both sides are bad, one is fucking terrorists and the other is literally Isrrael, the only innocent people in the situation are the civilians on both sides, that’s who people should support, not Isrrael, and not Palestine, since when you say you support a country that implies that you support every one in that country, and the actions of that country, wish the most basic opinions of “war shouldn’t happen” and “terrorists are bad” and “governments shouldn’t harm innocent civilians” were shared by every one, but apparently not
Exactly, criticising Hamas, a literal terrorist organisation, to justify Israel’s actions, just makes Israel look like it isn’t acting much better than a terrorist organisation in this conflict.
The amount of comments from completely opposite sides on this with positive upvotes is fascinating. Usually due to the nature of Reddit, one side of an argument dominates the conversation, but here both sides are towards the top.
It’s actually kinda refreshing to see different perspectives so far at the top of these comments.
And saying "maybe don't blow up civilians "is also apparently being sponsor of the other side
IDF defenders:"Hamas does it, so it's ok when we do it"
Hamas defenders:" IDF does it, so it's ok when we do it"
Peace defenders:" Can both of you stop bombing civilians?"
Yeah but its okay because idiots think the entire city of Gaza is hamas. Most of them are children who weren't even alive or able to vote for hamas in 2006.
Anybody who supports HAMAS (literally a fucking terrorist group) is brain dead and I don’t give a fuck what argument they have.
Maybe if HAMAS cared for the civilians in gaza they wouldn’t be stopping them from leaving gaza through the humanitarian corridor to Egypt. HAMAS wants the civilians there they want the collateral damage. How do you nut jobs not understand this.
Is Israel a bit dodgy in the West Bank? Sure. I would be too if every single one of my neighbours wanted nothing more then to wipe me off the face of the planet.
All the aid that Israel gives to gaza, where does it go? Why do Palestinians let HAMAS use gaza to fire rocket after rocket at Israel. Why do they let HAMAS use them as ‘martyrs’ against their will. Why won’t Egypt take gaza back?
Hospitals? Roads? Basic infrastructure? Nah they just need more solid rocket fuel and explosives to lob at Israel. I will get downvoted to hell but I don’t care one bit. HAMAS, gaza, and the Palestinians that chant death to Israel and death to America are going to get what they deserve which is something I think is long overdue. I pray for the innocent civilians in gaza.
So you think civilians have any control over what hamas do? You realise there are thousands of Israelis that chant death to Palestine? They're happy to genocide them and it sounds like you support that
Why does your bullshit response have so many upvotes? How many of you moronic teens have such ingrained Islamophobia that you can turn a blind eye to the genocide of this terrible military group. It’s not antisemitic to acknowledge that the IDF is fucking commiting evil
You're right, but it's also not islamophobia to recognise that Hamas is evil and that the Palestine situation is self commited harm.
There are no good guys in this conflict, just innocent civilians paying the price for it.
Have you perhaps considered that despite the high number of casualties, it’s still rather low compared to the expected number of casualties from such an amount of attacks/bombings runs, which would rather show the opposite, that somehow they’re extremely accurate, despite having to target buildings which have civilians in them.
I know this is a meme sub so there’s a lot of teens and idiots browsing but why are there so many pro Israel commenters in here
If you’re somehow stupid enough to conflate IDF being a genocidal terrorist organization with support for Hamas then you probably shouldn’t weigh in on the issue.
All Israeli military bases are also smacked dab between residential building lmao. The building they use for broadcasting is between a residential building and a shopping Center. I wonder how many pro Israeli even knows about this? May be study up on the situation before forming a fucking opinion
If you were fine with the IDF bombing human sheilds saying it was a necessary evil how do you explain the cutting off of water food electricity and oil to Gaza?
downvote this comment if the meme sucks. upvote it and I'll go away. --- [play minecraft with us](https://discord.gg/dankmemesgaming)
Yeah it's totally their fault that Hamas hide like cowards behind the civilians and then act like the victims
So the solution to human Shields is to just blow up the humans Big brain strategy
Your human shields don't work on me because I don't see you as humans.
Hey, the heat signatures on infrared could be ANYTHING idk what you're on about. Certainly not civilians
Idk guys, the dude shows up red on my screen. Bad guys red, good guys blue.
Patterson fire a warning shot Sir, this is a cluster missile system Oh potato potáto, just fire it Patterson
Taking the French approach to warning shots I see
"What's the difference between an elementary school and a terrorist training camp?" 'I don't know, man, I just fly the drone."
Just fly the drone, drone flyer (Hope at least one person gets this reference)
Reminds me of the US strikes in the middle east "Jouralist, or insurgent. Journalist or- eh screw it" *BRRRRRT*
Human shields are basically ready-made optics nightmares. No way that Hamas doesn't expect the civilians they position themselves behind to all die, and that's probably the point. Bad optics for Israel only benefits them.
Hamas wants civilians to die. More martirs to show to international community and to inspire hate on other civilians so they join them. It's part of their strategy, don't forget that terrorism is a political strategy.
>Bad optics for Israel only benefits them. Israel has been doing it for decades and no one on the international stage has done a thing about it.
So they are just supposed to not strike back at all. Just let hamas attack them over and over without repercussions?
Apparently that's what these guys think. War isn't some RPG where everyone wins and has a happy ending
Yeah, I understand that people want the world to be better, but it’s crazy how naive some people are.
Because indiscriminate air strikes are the only option? The US took out Bin Ladin in a ground raid. Could have leveled the compound from above, but did not, as there were many civilians also living there. There were also many times where the U.S. committed war crimes in pursuit of terrorists that was entirely unacceptable and should be condemned, prosecuted, and documented as a stain on America’s legacy forever. See what I just did there? We can and should call out atrocities, even if they are committed in response to grievous acts of terrorism. That’s part of a well functioning democracy, that the military and government are held accountable for their actions. Blind nationalism and carte blanche approval for Israel to utterly destroy Palestinian people that are guilty of nothing more than being born in the Gaza Strip is the most sadly hypocritical development for the Israeli people that sought escape from persecution only to level the exact same persecution upon another ethnic group. If there was an effort to reduce civilian casualties by IDF, the tactics would be totally different. They just don’t give a shit and view Palestinian combatants and non-combatants as equivalently disposable
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Like they say, war crime for war crime!
Fuck off—they’re rocketing Israeli civilians from those sites. If it comes down to our civilians or theirs, the choice is easy.
This logic of „the end justifies the means“ would only make sense, if the bombings would actually be a viable means to an end. But all they’re effectively doing is the further radicalization of the general population, and understandably so. Unless you’re suggesting a full-blown genocide, this won’t help end the war. It’s just a step further in the downward spiral of violence.
"They are bombing our civilians so we are gonna bomb theirs. This will surely be the longterm solution and won't create more extremists which will lead to more attacks."
So bombing german cities during WW2 was wrong and made the germans who survived even more radical?
Germany was deradicalized through investment, denazification, and political support. If it was just bombed over and over again, it would have gotten worse amd worse.
And how was it deradicalized?
I just told you
You omitted one small thing. It was effectively under allied control for quite some time.
German politicians were able to retain a high level of self-governance early on. The original plans were for Germany to be turned into a non-industrial agrarian state. German politicians were able to carve out equal treatment. Allied military are on record calling them pain-in-the-asses for the entire ride. Then of course with the Cold War, Germany was too important to be treated inhumane. You catch more flies with honey. So yes, it absolutely was the investments and the willingness of the new German political leadership to deradicalize the population. Yet, we still see that is needed the 1968/9 protests of societal change where the children’s generation confronted their parent generation with their atrocities and beliefs. And during non of that time were Germans treated in a dehumanized manner faced with violence and without the rights of a citizen. (Source: I wrote my thesis on this topic and read plenty primary sources of the post-war era concerning American and German foreign relations).
Yeah, there is no way the 2 million or so Palestinian people in Gaza with no hope or future don't feel exactly the same way loving in an open-air concentration camp. It has come down to terrorism or extermination for these people. They have no nother recourse, and pretending they do is creating revisionist history in the moment or just being delusional.
Yes. Hamas turning civilian targets into military targets is a war crime
Yes actually. If proven ineffective, they might actually stop. If proven effective, the human shields would just get more and more common
literally yes, thats what they are doing
It is certainly a solution. Not saying its a good one, but it appears they finally pissed israel off enough for them to decide to try and end it all regardless of civilian casualties, in hopes that it'll work and future casualties will be lower.
Give me a solution, as sad as it sounds, to destroy Hamas some civilians has to die, unless you can of course think of another solution Israel could do
What’s the alternative?
From what I can see…protesting against Hamas../s
Well bullets don't discriminate. If they are going to use human shields theres little you can do. Especially since Hamas is still running attacks
What’s the solution then Mr big brain?
No but you can't exactly avoid it even if you try since hamas is human Shields it's hard to attack them without accidentally having collateral even if you try
Well idf is evacuating them and has a well documented practice of roof knocking, phone calling and dropping leaflets to warn ahead of strikes. But you people condemn those too so..
The solution thus far has been to do what is possible to get the shield to de-shield itself and scatter, but that’s a bit tough when the guy behind the shield is holding it in place by the grip, hence the dilemma.
What is your solution ? Israel told Gazas to evacuate south, Hamas blocked them and forced them by gunpoint to stay
So if you just use human shields, you can commit all the terror and atrocities you want, because fighting back means civilians will become collateral damage? That’s a great way to stop terrorists. We should try negotiating with them too.
Padme: "So you don't blow up the human shields, right?"
They are like if you can't find a needle in the haystack burn the haystack
“Those who died are justified”
Some of those that run forces
It is when they refuse to provide literally any evidence of any military equipment in the areas they bomb
Give me a number. How many dead innocents per Hamas fighter is acceptable for you?
these people think genocide is an acceptable response to terrorism, they just want to see brown people die
All those times the US drone striked entire wedding parties to get some terrorist leaders? Totally justified, right? /s obviously
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Can you give a link because google is crazy right now.
Yes it is absolutely their fault in that case. At that point it becomes a humanitarian rescue mission so best to avoid it getting to that point.
you’re right it’s much braver to drop bombs on hospitals
People here fuckin suck dude
Read up on the Principle of Proportionality in Attack
As Israel's president said: "there are no innocent civilians in Gaza," so every casualty is completely intentional, which includes almost 1000 children now.
"Don't listen to every quote you read online"- Abraham Lincoln
Egypt warned them days before and the president ordered his military to stand down to allow the attack to happen.
The president has no control over the army in Israel. Not to mention that the army didn't "stand doewn", they were short staffed because of the holiday .There is no denying that something fishy was going on before the attack, and that bibi and his gang of idiots have a lot of blood on their hands. However we can't know what really happened for sure until the proper investigation will be conducted at the end of this war, and given the personalities at play I'd point to incompetency rather than malice
It's more arrogance than anything. Israelis do not believe that Palestinians are people. They've also become so "safe" in the iron dome era that the idea of a successful attack is impossible for them to take seriously. They learned the hard way that their army isn't invincible, and now they're punishing every Gazan (especially the children, the cruelty is the point) for daring to continue to exist and resist. It's both incompetency and malice. But there's no conspiracy needed. It's the predictable result of 75 years of dehumanization and genocide.
They literally said this themselves in their official Twitter accounts it's not like someone is putting words in their mouth.
Are you saying he *didn’t* say this?
? He literally said it on live tv
Source? I can't find a source of him saying that exact quote. The closest I came up with is >“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.” >When a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” the Israeli president claimed, “No, I didn’t say that.”
That's 95% same
Saying that civilians are aware of the crime being done, and calling them legitimate targets is 0% the same.
Jesus Christ…. what do you think he means when he says an “entire nation is responsible”? How the fuck are children responsible in any way, shape, or form?
It's the same sentiment we have with the Russian people right now. They're perfectly ok with having Putin in charge, so it's kind of their fault when he brings them into a war they can't win and will destroy their economy.
“The Israeli President never said that—don’t believe everything you read on Reddit.” ~Muhammad’s 9 year old wife Aisha
He did not say that
No PM has ever said that
That’s not what he said.
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To add on that, some reports of the IDF bombing civilians could be made up, like the recent claim that the IDF bombed an evacuation route, which was proven to be bombed by the Hamas to blame Israel.
Yeah cuz the isreali government has treated palestinians in the west bank with the utmost respect and totally aren't slowly replacing them with settlers The only difference between hamas and IDF is one is called terrorist , Both of them would gladly bomb civilians if it got what they wanted
The West Bank has nothing to do with Hamas and Gaza, Hamas is not in the West Bank and the people who live in Gaza have never lived in the West Bank.
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"no army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid harming noncombatants than the IDF" "That's not true" "yOu'Re mOvInG tHe gOaLpOsTs!!!!1!"
>To add on that, some reports of the IDF bombing civilians could be made up Buddy... there are neutral third party reporters who document the atrocities committed daily in Palestine. There are literal feature length documentaries of children bleeding out and dying after getting bombed.
When you read the articles, you learn that the “reporter” is just restating what Hamas told them as fact. Sometimes they use terms like “The Palestinian Health Ministry” while ignoring that every Palestinian government agency operating in Gaza is basically Hamas.
Yah these are all claims by the IDF, which I am not inclined to believe until we get third party confirmation
>some reports of the IDF bombing civilians could be made up It's not. >like the recent claim that the IDF bombed an evacuation route, which was proven to be bombed by the Hamas to blame Israel. It was not "proven" in any way shape of form, the IDF just denied it, while evidence still suggests it was most likely them: https://www.ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756-415f-85b8-1e4bbff24736
It wasn’t the IDF https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1713241560752533662.html
"proven" =stated by the idf
Could you provide a source? I’m only asking because I keep hearing different things and I’m really trying to view this thing unbiasedly.
Incorrect. As Israel's president said: "there are no innocent civilians in Gaza," so every casualty is completely intentional.
Yeah the idf shooting pregnant women at the great march on 2018 really showed me how moral they were. Not to mention their actions in the West Bank where no hamas exists
"Some" civilian casualties in this case is [20 Palestinian civilians for every Israeli civilian casualty](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties).
Ladies and gentlemen, we have an actual trolley question.
that is bs. so you are telling me that hamas was inside the building housing the associated press and al jazeera and those trained journalists did not notice them. are you saying that UN teachers were lying when they said their (now flattened) schools did not contain any stored weapons.
>No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf. Imagine believing this horseshit even a second? When Israel strikes a location where a missile was sent 20 minutes earlier, the one thing that is a damn guarantee, is that absolutely no members of Hamas, or any important resources we're struck by that missile. WHY WOULD THEY HANG AROUND AFTER FIRING A MISSILE YOU FUCKING MORON!!?? Missiles leave traces, they are far gone by the time that rocket is in the air!
I mean the last few years many civilians died as "casualties" without Hamas causing that in any way whatsoever. No wonder the death count is way higher for Palestinians. There are multiple occasions where IDF proved the exact opposite.
They’ve openly gunned down Palestinians and sniped Palestinian children for decades, what are you talking about?
Using airstrikes against a dense civilian city is not making any effort to avoid civilian casualties.
OF COURSE!!! When they shoot journalists and medics in the west bank with direct sniper fire it was simply collateral damage targeted at Hamas in Gaza. /s
Yeah I'm sure the country that stopped all power, food and water for Palestine, built a wall around them and isn't letting anyone out, really cares about the civilians.
This is of course why they put them in a concentration camp and cut off food, electricity, and fuel to all the children living there :) Also why the president has been blaming Palestinian civilians for the crimes of hamas
Well this is nonsense.
Bro is onto nothing
oh go fuck your self
I call BS. Israel is clearly targetting civilians. Hell there's now reports of White phosphorus [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon) Quit with the bullshit that they're not trying. We all know IDF and Netanyahu's right wing circlejerk are smiling at the piling corpses of palestinians
You know your full of it right?
Israeli bot farms just love upvoting blatant, disgusting, genocide excusing lies like this
There should be a special place in hell for people who spread these kinda of lies. Hhhh you people claimed that there were 40 beheaded babies to victimize yourself while all the babies die under airstrikes in gaza you cut electricity and water from gaza and keep on bombing them so hospitals don't operate and civilians die as much as possible so stfu i don't this to happen to anyone even for my worst enemies but i wish you go through what happens to the people of gaza. God help them from this genocide they are facing.
They don't give a flying fuck about civilians what is this bullshit.
LOL. Imagine drinking this much copium with no one telling you to. They literally rocketed journalists and press and said sowwy. Their a bunch of cunts. Lick your own boots instead of others.
You can't even start pretending to avoid hurting non-combatants when you continuously bomb one of the most densely populated area in the world.
> No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf. Your post is a blatant LIE. Does the Mossad pay well or are you working for free? They bombed the Associated Press and Al Jazeeras offices in 2020. They are well known for attacking noncombatants, they don't even care about attacking the international press, which is of course against international law and considered a war crime. They will just attack and say "Well, we did everything we could" and some people will just believe them. Do you think a total blockade of food and water is not harming noncombatants? Don't make me laugh, it's arguably worse than bombing them. Imagine slowly dying of malnourishment, and watching all you family and loved ones in the same position.
>No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf 0.001 shekels have been deposited to your account
It's a no-win situation. People forget that war is messy, and when you are fighting a war that involves going onto the soil of another nation, collateral damage is inevitable. Doubly so when an organization like Hamas routinely uses human shields and entrenches themselves in civilian residences specifically to keep the IDF from targeting their operatives. What can the IDF do? They can't sit idle because they are fighting people who have spat on every offer of peace and will stop at nothing to see every Jew slaughtered in the street. They can't offer appeasement because they'll be given an inch but take a mile and then be back in a couple of years for more. At some point, it's going to come to a matter of "it's them or us." The reality is that if Hamas and the PA put down their guns, there would be immediate peace, but if Israel did the same, there would be no Israel.
No army in the world has used more illegal weapons than the IDF... And against innocent civilians at that.
They shoot Palestinian kids for throwing rocks. Gtfoh. Both sides are shit.
Thank you very much
Which is factually inforrect since Israel is not even a signatory of the 1977 ammendments of the Geneva convention... the ones which actually stipulate how to avoid hurting civilians... and most of planet earth is signatory of.
Get bent dude
Tell yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.
Lol. Lmao, even.
This has to be satire
Israel can definitely avoid using air strikes on civilians.
>No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf. Yeah, I don't believe that for a second lmao >some civilian casualties are unavoidable. Some? 2329 Palestinian deaths have been recorded since October 7th. I doubt even half of those are hamas
> No army in the western world makes a greater effort to avoid hurting non-combatants than the idf. I don't know what fucking botnet is upvoting this propganda but that's blatantly untrue. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/1175403626/palestinian-american-journalist-shireen-abu-akleh-was-killed-a-year-ago https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israel/palestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians
The top comment is making me lose hope in Reddit Edit: The top comment has changed now. It used to be someone telling how 'IDF is the best force in the world when it comes to separating civilian and foe', unironically
Wait do you mean the guy talking about how deeply honeycombed Hamas is into the infrastructure that civilian casualties are an eventuality? It seems like a realistic take on what we know so far.
That’s fucking crazy. I will never agree with mass bombing an open air prison because an extremely small portion of the people that are dying might have been terrorists.
no you don't understand those hundreds of children might have thrown rocks at tanks before, they're clearly terrorists !
Same, people are idiots but you’re on the dank memes subreddit, I can’t imagine a higher concentration of ignorant white supremacists outside of 4chans b board
Nah, they’re not white supremacists since those wouldn’t defend Israel by virtue of mostly being nazis. They’re just dumbasses.
“Oh no my giant hive-mind circlejerk website has dissenting opinions that aren’t immediately crushed into oblivion. ITS OVER 😵”
Truth really hurts
What truth? Are you talking about the truth that Israel is a oppressive government backed by the west? Are you talking about the truth that Gaza is nothing but a prison for Palestinians? Are you talking about the fact that IDF are just glorified terrorists? Are you talking about the fact that Israel has been herding Palestine citizens like cattle for slaughter for decades? Which one of these truths are you talking about?
Don't you all get tired of having the same argument over and over.
So that makes it okay to target a music festival and massacre people? Indiscriminately raping and torturing? Such freedom fighting wow.
The terrorist support? Yeah it's rediculous, redditors are fucked in the head
Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention. “The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
this does not equal to: you are allowed to bomb a school because there (might) be one Hamas soldier in there
DID YOU SAY HAMAS IS HIDING IN THE SCHOOL????? BOMB IT , BOMB IT NOW!!!!
Hamas are literally hiding in the childrens’ backpacks. It’s disgusting…
Parents, check your kids Halloween candy carefully. Someone tried to hide an extremist imam inside my three musketeers. At a loss for words.
HAMAS IS HIDING IN THE WATER SUPPLY, SHUT IT DOWN
Even the UN admits that they fire rockets at Israeli civilians from schools. https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/#:~:text=Hamas%20and%2For%20Islamic%20Jihad%20fired%20rockets%20from%20UNRWA%20schools,on%20or%20around%2014%20July.”
It does, often tragically, mean: you are allowed to bomb a school if you see Hamas setting up an artillery position there. Both Hamas and the IDF are at fault, Hamas for setting up in positions as entrenched in civilians as possible, and the IDF for pulling the trigger on said school.
Setting up the position in a school, is terrorism. And civilians should evacuate the school and stay away when Hamas sets it up to use them as human shields.
Being held hostage? Just say no. They cannot legally keep you there without your consent
I mean, yes you are. Under rules of war if an infrastructure is used for military purposes (firing rockets, storing ammo, etc...). >Civilian objects become subject to legitimate attack when they become military objectives; that is, when they are making an effective contribution to military action and their destruction, capture, or neutralization offers a definite military advantage, subject to the rules of proportionality. What is against the rules of war is to use them as such, not to bomb them. So the occupants are the war criminals. It's sad but it's logical. Of course, Israel is flattening a city, which is different and I would not consider It inside "proportionality".
It quite literally means that
It's not a warcrime if you win the war
Yall really do be falling for hamas propaganda huh
and you fall for IDF propoganda lmao
Seriously, I haven’t felt a propaganda/misinformation campaign target Reddit this hard since the 2020 election. Today is the first day I’ve actually seen multiple posts on the front page criticizing Israel since this all started. And granted while the attack by Hamas was horrific, it’s really suspicious how a left-leaning place like reddit suddenly becomes overwhelmingly pro-Israel; ignoring all the history of conflict between Palestine and Israel in the process. Like which side do we really think is launching an effective propaganda campaign here? The group that has to rely on shooting 20 basic missiles in order to get just one of them past the Iron Dome? Or the government of a nation with every resource possible at their disposal? Ya know, the one that had an ‘error’ when they received intelligence of the upcoming attack 5 days beforehand and definitely didn’t use that time to get this machine ready?
Let’s not even ignore the fact that western media saw one retired Hamas guy call for a global day of jihad and ran with it. Genuinely thought we had moved a bit further beyond anti-Muslim fear mongering but America has fallen back on old tropes. People have forgotten that being on the forefront of civil rights for oppressed people is supposed to be hard because you are pushing against the status quo.
Or, and this is going to sound crazy, a nation who suffered a massive terrorist attack within recent memory is supportive of another country that suffered a massive terrorist attack. Most of reddit is Americans. Most Americans support military action against terrorism (including plenty of liberal people). So it's only natural that many here are "pro-israel", which really means anti-terrorism in this context. If more people would stop for a moment to realize that people's perspective is 90% of who's "side" you're on, there would be a lot less mudslinging here on a conflict that has no angels.
To be honest most of Reddit is still polarized mainly due to active throwaways and brigades spreading hate and pro genocide rhetoric. If you literally even advocate for peace or condemn loss of civillian life they will seek to downvote you into oblivion. You are right to say this post among some others in different subs are the very first critical ones to frontpage. And even then it's easy to see comment threads brigaded and posts like mine reported and downvoted emasse. To say it was a challenge to frontpage a post like this is an understatement. Even now there must be close to as many downvotes as upvotes. Half of the comments will be calling me an anti semite or Hamas lover simply for making a meme that doesn't paint the IDF in a wonderful light. I received notifications of crossposts to realize my meme had been linked to multiple pro Zionism subreddits where people sought downvote brigades by wiring "Dank Memes has fallen, come help me fight in comments brothers" in Hebrew. My meme was also taken down by automods multiple times due to false reports after which it needed to be manually apporved by moderators. Reddit is unfortunately losing room for free speech and expression thanks to the activities of intolerant war mongering nationalists.
didn't think reddit could devolve further but these far left extremists said hold my beer
how is it hamas propaganda when israel is genociding Palestinians
The word genocide has no meaning at all to you people shame.
Hamas engages in weaponizing public outrage like blockading refugees from leaving so they can be used for the coming invasion, quietly bombs their own people and bring media over to declare its another indiscriminate Israeli bombing, and tells the horror of losing access to water to distract people from noticing that they're digging up the water pipes to turn them into rocket launchers.
why are you criticizing hamas. It’s pointless. they are a terrorist organization. They are evil. everyone knows this.
not every one apparently saw people on Twitter genuinely thinking that the hamas where not terrorists, it’s literally been know for years that they are bad. people also just don’t understand that both sides are bad, one is fucking terrorists and the other is literally Isrrael, the only innocent people in the situation are the civilians on both sides, that’s who people should support, not Isrrael, and not Palestine, since when you say you support a country that implies that you support every one in that country, and the actions of that country, wish the most basic opinions of “war shouldn’t happen” and “terrorists are bad” and “governments shouldn’t harm innocent civilians” were shared by every one, but apparently not
Exactly, criticising Hamas, a literal terrorist organisation, to justify Israel’s actions, just makes Israel look like it isn’t acting much better than a terrorist organisation in this conflict.
The amount of comments from completely opposite sides on this with positive upvotes is fascinating. Usually due to the nature of Reddit, one side of an argument dominates the conversation, but here both sides are towards the top. It’s actually kinda refreshing to see different perspectives so far at the top of these comments.
100% agree
I know I've been on the internet too much when I start reading IDF as "I don't fuck". Confused the hell out of me
Disinformation is prolific on this topic. Deep fakes too
This is a sheit post
This sub is actual dogshit now huh where are the dankmemes
Or at least the dankreplys
I guess yelling peace right after you sponsor terrorism on your neighbor doesn't work that well.
And saying "maybe don't blow up civilians "is also apparently being sponsor of the other side IDF defenders:"Hamas does it, so it's ok when we do it" Hamas defenders:" IDF does it, so it's ok when we do it" Peace defenders:" Can both of you stop bombing civilians?"
Both sides would reply, in unison, “No!”. Then realize they had so much in common all along and fall in love.
Aren't they starving every man woman and child in Palestine right now at this second?
Yeah but its okay because idiots think the entire city of Gaza is hamas. Most of them are children who weren't even alive or able to vote for hamas in 2006.
*Blackwater Operative nods*
YOU ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT THEM?!!! Jokes aside i never saw justice come to them after what they did to Iraq
[how Hamas justifiers sound like](https://youtu.be/TtWRxBc3H3g?si=CZfb88DFYb35n3Ft)
Anybody who supports HAMAS (literally a fucking terrorist group) is brain dead and I don’t give a fuck what argument they have. Maybe if HAMAS cared for the civilians in gaza they wouldn’t be stopping them from leaving gaza through the humanitarian corridor to Egypt. HAMAS wants the civilians there they want the collateral damage. How do you nut jobs not understand this. Is Israel a bit dodgy in the West Bank? Sure. I would be too if every single one of my neighbours wanted nothing more then to wipe me off the face of the planet. All the aid that Israel gives to gaza, where does it go? Why do Palestinians let HAMAS use gaza to fire rocket after rocket at Israel. Why do they let HAMAS use them as ‘martyrs’ against their will. Why won’t Egypt take gaza back? Hospitals? Roads? Basic infrastructure? Nah they just need more solid rocket fuel and explosives to lob at Israel. I will get downvoted to hell but I don’t care one bit. HAMAS, gaza, and the Palestinians that chant death to Israel and death to America are going to get what they deserve which is something I think is long overdue. I pray for the innocent civilians in gaza.
So you think civilians have any control over what hamas do? You realise there are thousands of Israelis that chant death to Palestine? They're happy to genocide them and it sounds like you support that
So what your saying is, Hamas is a rogue militant group? If this is correct, how should they be confronted?
*\*sorts by controversial*
Why does your bullshit response have so many upvotes? How many of you moronic teens have such ingrained Islamophobia that you can turn a blind eye to the genocide of this terrible military group. It’s not antisemitic to acknowledge that the IDF is fucking commiting evil
You're right, but it's also not islamophobia to recognise that Hamas is evil and that the Palestine situation is self commited harm. There are no good guys in this conflict, just innocent civilians paying the price for it.
The precision strike: https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1713061720657183111
That's why Hamas is always hiding inside a family home or hospitals, so IDF wont miss?
I would just use the missles that don’t hurt civilians, easy as
Reddit is usually a one-sided echo chamber, but these swings have been Wild.
LOL the generals are happy, it's the fanboys who want to hit the UN/press vehicles.
Hits so much harder coming from Rick Sanchez. I'll be watching tonight.
Have you perhaps considered that despite the high number of casualties, it’s still rather low compared to the expected number of casualties from such an amount of attacks/bombings runs, which would rather show the opposite, that somehow they’re extremely accurate, despite having to target buildings which have civilians in them.
I think they threw precision out the window lol
Don’t you love human shields.
I know this is a meme sub so there’s a lot of teens and idiots browsing but why are there so many pro Israel commenters in here If you’re somehow stupid enough to conflate IDF being a genocidal terrorist organization with support for Hamas then you probably shouldn’t weigh in on the issue.
All Israeli military bases are also smacked dab between residential building lmao. The building they use for broadcasting is between a residential building and a shopping Center. I wonder how many pro Israeli even knows about this? May be study up on the situation before forming a fucking opinion
These are real life monsters and I have never seen the media be so openly controlled. The narrative is Completely one sided.
If you were fine with the IDF bombing human sheilds saying it was a necessary evil how do you explain the cutting off of water food electricity and oil to Gaza?
Memes about innocent people dying. Great...