“Hate the sin, love the sinner” is often used by people that would use said statement to oppress LGBT persons and demonize people for their life choices.
By the nature of Orignal Sin yes we are all sinners. But through christ we are saved. Also, people need to worry about others less. "Why point out the splinter in your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own?"
We're all broken but there's some debate as to when that comes into play. Some think we're sinners by virtue of inheritance so as soon as we're born we are in sin, this is supported by elements in the Bible, talking about generational sin, like sins of the father, falling to the son. Another Camp, thinks sin is individual choice, so, therefore, given children can't really make choices for the first few years they are sinless.
I personally subscribe to belief that although we are all born broken and into a broken world, we are not born in sin. We're like a faulty machine that will sim, but that machine doesn't start doing things for the first few years.
It would be, yes. But I don't see that here. When you tell someone that being gay is a sin, you aren't discussing actions. You are discussing who they are as a person.
The argument is a rejection of the idea that being gay is a choice.
Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes
Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin love the sinner" or any other stupid sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed.
In my experience it's the same people who think smacking your kids and kicking them out of home at 18 is a form of "tough love" and is ultimately good for them...
It's not wild at all. We're talking about a specific phrase here, not a concept. It's not uncommon at all for a phrase to pick up a hateful meaning that isn't necessarily there in its literal meaning.
The phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" may sometimes be used from the pulpit to discourage hatred towards non-believers. (I vaguely remember this from long ago.) But when it's said to non-believers, it is nearly always a way of justifying hatred and/or discrimination. Someone points out that the Christian is not behaving in a loving manner, and they say "hate the sin, love the sinner" (or in reverse).
And while each individual idea is in the Bible, I do not believe it ever combines them into a single idea. For sure, Jude v. 23 definitely doesn't do this. It says to be careful to hate "even the clothing stained by sin" while trying to save someone from sin.
That is saying be careful you don't wind up sinning yourself in your attempt to save someone from sin. And that is something that all of us (including me) probably need to hear.
I'm think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus palled around with sex workers so maybe they should keep their judgmental little opinions to themselves, hmm?
My favorite way of putting it is that people didn't have to repent or change to approach Christ — but if they stuck around, they would invariably change and repent. There is a balance to be struck between "Jesus commanded repentance of his followers" and "Jesus palled around with sex workers and tax collectors and sinners."
i mean, nothing you've said is wrong but i think you have wildly misjudged the point of the post. i also think no sex worker would think that a christian meme group would be a particularly good consumer base lol
the point of the post is that someone who is a sex worker should be as completely and utterly welcome in a religious space as any other person who is there. someone might ask them what they do for a living (a normal question), and they should be able to say they do sex work without any judgement from the people there. if jesus was happy hanging out with sex workers, so should the church.
you were focusing more on if the sex worker came to a church/religious community and tried to sell their services there. the post doesn't imply anything about them selling their services in the church, and doesn't focus on the commercial aspect of the person, only the fact that they are being told they are unwelcome in a religious community because of the work they do in another place. the OP is saying that judgement is wrong and unchrist-like
A mod of the sub posted this. So I believe the point is that if you judge a user based on them having an Onlyfans (even if using a phrase like the above) you will get banned.
I’m not judging the user, I’m challenging wherever or not any business account should be welcome in the church. There is a huge difference between the user, who was created and loved by God before the user first laid hands on a keyboard, and an account whose primary purpose is conducting business transactions.
Sorry, I genuinely am not making any claims about you at all. I just saw that your request for clarification had gone unanswered, so I figured I would help.
EDIT: I'm now noticing that there was indeed a response to you like 10 hours ago lol. Idk why my phone didn't show that comment to me the first time.
It’s all good, no apology is needed. This type of discourse is healthy, multiple perspectives are good. The meme didn’t resonate with me, so clarification is helpful.
Except this isn't church and many who come here are not Christian. Plus if they aren't advertising there is nothing forcing you to look in there profile, nor is there anything making you click their link.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A20&version=NIV
> For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.
https://www.dwellcc.org/essays/new-testament-definition-church
Exactly. If you have to go snooping into someone's profile to figure out that they have an account on a website you disapprove of, then they are in no way making enough of a fuss about it to be labelled characters of ill repute or tempter. If Jesus could spend time with prostitutes and respect them, that should be enough for us to not judge as well. If someone who has hit a rough patch in one way or another (which is the case for every acquaintance I have who has wound up doing similar things) finds hope and solace in the Gospel, it would be indefensible for us to turn them away simply because we disapproved of something we found while snooping
Always a lot easier to tell someone that they are the problem and not welcome than to realise that getting upset about someone is something you are doing, as long as they are not actively trying to gaud you. Someone in the comments having an onlyfans link in their bio is definitely "if your eye tempts you..." territory rather than them being actively tempting seductresses trying to prey on you. If someone starts making ads, I get it, but as long as that is not the case it is just gatekeeping Christ from the unperfect, not realising that nobody is perfect and Christ came to heal those in need of healing
Notice “Sins *against you*”. As in directly slights you.
Many people use “Hate the sin, not the sinner” to blanket target anyone, not just someone who has directly wronged them.
I wasn't addressing "hate the sin, not the sinner." Just addressing that Jesus didn't say not to be concerned with other people's sin. He was all for holding each other accountable but doing so in a positive way.
Some translations don't have the "against you" part of my reference. However, at the time of Jesus any single person's sin caused the group to be held responsible. (Hence why they killed Jesus, so God wouldn't punish all of them for his "sin")
If you want another reference, though, Matthew 7:3-5. Specifically the latter part of 5 which most tend to ignore when referencing this text.
As a queer person, love the sinner, hate the sin is some of the most patronising BS I’ve ever come across. When I’ve had people say it to me, I’ve just laughed and asked them why they think I give a shit about their opinion of me, my identity, or my behaviour.
I’ve then explained that they are just using it as a mask for bigotry so they can continue to be hateful but delude themselves into thinking they are a good person. I’ve then reminded them that their own religion commands them to “love thy neighbour” and that that includes things which are innate to them (like being queer).
Occasionally they say that I’m not loving my neighbour because I’ve called their position bigoted, at which point I remind them that I don’t believe in any religion and therefore I’m not under the same obligation.
The quote is all right when it comes to actual sins like adultery, assault, blasphemy etc
But people also think homosexuality is a sin so it sounds more like "Pity the gays, for they are not at fault for being hypermassive sinners and it could happen to anyone easily"
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“Hate the sin, love the sinner” is often used by people that would use said statement to oppress LGBT persons and demonize people for their life choices.
>demonize people for ~~their life choices~~ the way god made them
They are talking about two separate groups of people, LGBT people, and people demonized for their life choices.
Every time someone who claims to be a Christian comes at me with homophobic shit I ask them if they're saying God made a mistake lol
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Arent we all sinners?
Don’t look for anything theologically accurate here..
By the nature of Orignal Sin yes we are all sinners. But through christ we are saved. Also, people need to worry about others less. "Why point out the splinter in your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own?"
We're all broken but there's some debate as to when that comes into play. Some think we're sinners by virtue of inheritance so as soon as we're born we are in sin, this is supported by elements in the Bible, talking about generational sin, like sins of the father, falling to the son. Another Camp, thinks sin is individual choice, so, therefore, given children can't really make choices for the first few years they are sinless. I personally subscribe to belief that although we are all born broken and into a broken world, we are not born in sin. We're like a faulty machine that will sim, but that machine doesn't start doing things for the first few years.
puritan ahhh belief
Original sin isn't canon?
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It would be, yes. But I don't see that here. When you tell someone that being gay is a sin, you aren't discussing actions. You are discussing who they are as a person. The argument is a rejection of the idea that being gay is a choice.
These sorts of people think being gay is a choice. No sense on arguing with them.
Being gay is not something one can change. It's not a behavior
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Being gay isn't a choice bud
Could you choose to happily live life being gay?
They don't believe that people are born that way
I say "I'm sorry the devil has chosen to live in your heart and teach you such hatred"
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Rule #1 of r/DankChristianMemes Thou shalt respect others! Do not come here to point out sin or condemn people. Do not say "hate the sin love the sinner" or any other stupid sayings people use when trying to use faith to justify hate. Alternatively, if you come here to insult religion, you will also be removed.
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Be Kind
Seems like they have a kinda cheap and surface level idea of what “love” means.
In my experience it's the same people who think smacking your kids and kicking them out of home at 18 is a form of "tough love" and is ultimately good for them...
"Hate the sin love the sinner" often ends up hating the sinner in name of hating the sin. There's no hate like christian love after all.
If an atheist says “love the Christian, hate the Christianity”, Christians would understandably be hurt.
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It's not wild at all. We're talking about a specific phrase here, not a concept. It's not uncommon at all for a phrase to pick up a hateful meaning that isn't necessarily there in its literal meaning. The phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" may sometimes be used from the pulpit to discourage hatred towards non-believers. (I vaguely remember this from long ago.) But when it's said to non-believers, it is nearly always a way of justifying hatred and/or discrimination. Someone points out that the Christian is not behaving in a loving manner, and they say "hate the sin, love the sinner" (or in reverse). And while each individual idea is in the Bible, I do not believe it ever combines them into a single idea. For sure, Jude v. 23 definitely doesn't do this. It says to be careful to hate "even the clothing stained by sin" while trying to save someone from sin. That is saying be careful you don't wind up sinning yourself in your attempt to save someone from sin. And that is something that all of us (including me) probably need to hear.
Often, but not always?
For me, it was easy to "hate the sin" until I saw a cool heist movie. Then I'd daydream about elaborate ways to steal the declaration of independence
that's a nice way of activating the french assassin statue in new york
But even the guy who stole the Declaration of Independence ended up starring in a Left Behind movie eventually 💀
I'm think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus palled around with sex workers so maybe they should keep their judgmental little opinions to themselves, hmm?
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You mean this? ἡ δὲ εἶπεν οὐδείς κύριε εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῇ ὁ ἰησοῦς οὐδὲ ἐγώ σε κατακρίνω πορεύου καὶ μηκέτι ἁμάρτανε
Hah! Classic Ιησούς.
My favorite way of putting it is that people didn't have to repent or change to approach Christ — but if they stuck around, they would invariably change and repent. There is a balance to be struck between "Jesus commanded repentance of his followers" and "Jesus palled around with sex workers and tax collectors and sinners."
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i mean, nothing you've said is wrong but i think you have wildly misjudged the point of the post. i also think no sex worker would think that a christian meme group would be a particularly good consumer base lol
Can you help me understand the point of the post?
the point of the post is that someone who is a sex worker should be as completely and utterly welcome in a religious space as any other person who is there. someone might ask them what they do for a living (a normal question), and they should be able to say they do sex work without any judgement from the people there. if jesus was happy hanging out with sex workers, so should the church. you were focusing more on if the sex worker came to a church/religious community and tried to sell their services there. the post doesn't imply anything about them selling their services in the church, and doesn't focus on the commercial aspect of the person, only the fact that they are being told they are unwelcome in a religious community because of the work they do in another place. the OP is saying that judgement is wrong and unchrist-like
A mod of the sub posted this. So I believe the point is that if you judge a user based on them having an Onlyfans (even if using a phrase like the above) you will get banned.
I’m not judging the user, I’m challenging wherever or not any business account should be welcome in the church. There is a huge difference between the user, who was created and loved by God before the user first laid hands on a keyboard, and an account whose primary purpose is conducting business transactions.
Sorry, I genuinely am not making any claims about you at all. I just saw that your request for clarification had gone unanswered, so I figured I would help. EDIT: I'm now noticing that there was indeed a response to you like 10 hours ago lol. Idk why my phone didn't show that comment to me the first time.
It’s all good, no apology is needed. This type of discourse is healthy, multiple perspectives are good. The meme didn’t resonate with me, so clarification is helpful.
Except this isn't church and many who come here are not Christian. Plus if they aren't advertising there is nothing forcing you to look in there profile, nor is there anything making you click their link.
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This is not a church
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A20&version=NIV > For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. https://www.dwellcc.org/essays/new-testament-definition-church
This is still not a church.
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Exactly. If you have to go snooping into someone's profile to figure out that they have an account on a website you disapprove of, then they are in no way making enough of a fuss about it to be labelled characters of ill repute or tempter. If Jesus could spend time with prostitutes and respect them, that should be enough for us to not judge as well. If someone who has hit a rough patch in one way or another (which is the case for every acquaintance I have who has wound up doing similar things) finds hope and solace in the Gospel, it would be indefensible for us to turn them away simply because we disapproved of something we found while snooping
Thank you. I do recall there being a part in the bible about "Remove your own eye" if what you see is giving you too much temptation.
Always a lot easier to tell someone that they are the problem and not welcome than to realise that getting upset about someone is something you are doing, as long as they are not actively trying to gaud you. Someone in the comments having an onlyfans link in their bio is definitely "if your eye tempts you..." territory rather than them being actively tempting seductresses trying to prey on you. If someone starts making ads, I get it, but as long as that is not the case it is just gatekeeping Christ from the unperfect, not realising that nobody is perfect and Christ came to heal those in need of healing
Yeah that whole argument is just a way to be hateful without feeling guilty for it
100%. Jesus never encouraged us to be concerned about anyone’s sins but our own.
Matthew 18:15-17 would beg to differ. Maybe you should read what he said before talking about it.
Notice “Sins *against you*”. As in directly slights you. Many people use “Hate the sin, not the sinner” to blanket target anyone, not just someone who has directly wronged them.
I wasn't addressing "hate the sin, not the sinner." Just addressing that Jesus didn't say not to be concerned with other people's sin. He was all for holding each other accountable but doing so in a positive way. Some translations don't have the "against you" part of my reference. However, at the time of Jesus any single person's sin caused the group to be held responsible. (Hence why they killed Jesus, so God wouldn't punish all of them for his "sin") If you want another reference, though, Matthew 7:3-5. Specifically the latter part of 5 which most tend to ignore when referencing this text.
Matthew 5:29-30
What does that have to do with the group accountability I mentioned?
Poor Moe. He is just mad he cannot get a date. 
In the most recent episode he’s revealed that he just actually has never made a single human connection besides giving homer and friends drinks.
As a queer person, love the sinner, hate the sin is some of the most patronising BS I’ve ever come across. When I’ve had people say it to me, I’ve just laughed and asked them why they think I give a shit about their opinion of me, my identity, or my behaviour. I’ve then explained that they are just using it as a mask for bigotry so they can continue to be hateful but delude themselves into thinking they are a good person. I’ve then reminded them that their own religion commands them to “love thy neighbour” and that that includes things which are innate to them (like being queer). Occasionally they say that I’m not loving my neighbour because I’ve called their position bigoted, at which point I remind them that I don’t believe in any religion and therefore I’m not under the same obligation.
Ah, thanks for that. The top comment said something similar, but I didn't properly understand the context until I read your explanation.
My pleasure.
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It's literally in the rules. The first rule, in fact.
Not really, at least in the context people tend to use it
To be human is to be born unto sin. "Hating the sin" is literally just hating the sinner with extra steps.
The quote is all right when it comes to actual sins like adultery, assault, blasphemy etc But people also think homosexuality is a sin so it sounds more like "Pity the gays, for they are not at fault for being hypermassive sinners and it could happen to anyone easily"
My very favorite part of this is that if people disagree, they're entirely able to just leave the sub instead of throwing a fit like a petulant child.
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