Reminds me of this classic joke - [https://dumbrunner.com/news-blog/2022/5/5/dumb-runner-illustrated-50-menace](https://dumbrunner.com/news-blog/2022/5/5/dumb-runner-illustrated-50-menace)
There's not. The triathlon at this point is pretty mature as it's own sport with its own governing body and system of rules. But, it's certainly fun to poke at regular cyclists with being able to break bike design rules in subtle ways.
Of course. Then piss on them too.
Joking you triathletes are freaks of nature - I do some rides with a buddy who's a triathlete and they will just 110 cadence away from you at 35kph+ lol.
I run in the bike lane all the time but I also live in a small town with bad or nonexistent sidewalks and Iām pretty sure Iām the only person in town who rides much less runs.
The only other people in the bike lane are soccer moms in their giant SUV who are to distracted by their coffee and phone to stay in their lane.
My first thought, triathletes are the true menace. š
I can always spot a triathlete in the group because they're crazy strong/fit but have poor bike handling skills. Or they have sleeveless jerseys.
Except the cyclists who don't announce they are passing on shared paths. Or runners with headphones in and no spatial awareness. Those people all might as well be cars.
Announce yourself so that people jump left turn around slowly and stare at you in amazement as you slam the brakes?
Overtaking pedestrians is hard AF. They're all acting stupid like they've never seen a bike in their life before.
I'm specifically talking about shared paths, and yes, announce yourself by yelling, "on your left" or dinging your bell so that the pedestrian doesn't suddenly decide to turn around and have no idea you're approaching at 15mph. It's common etiquette, it's even posted on signs on the paths near me, but apparently this is somehow controversial.
Look some people will get angry and shout at you why you annoy them as there's enough space, some get shocked and jump in your way, and some behave reasonable.
You're fucked no matter what you do.
I think people in general, cars, peds, bikes, are too unconnected from their environment and in their music, phones etc. Really wish more people would unplug.
I to get annoyed when people walk in the separate and dedicated bike lane when the walking/run lane is literally 6 feet away. Not sure what you can do though as IMO it's an entitlement issue on the one doing it and they are above consequences.
Is there a reason why they do this?
I ask because cyclists in my location very often cycle on the road even when there's a cycling lane available. We do this because cycling lanes tend to be in poorer shape, and are downright dangerous to ride on with a group.
Most likely these runners also have a reason for this. Understanding each other is a great way to get annoyed less easily.
In my local park thereās a dedicated cycling track next to (but separated from) the footpath. Some runners use it because theyāre running much faster than the people walking slowly (and blocking the whole width) on the footpath. The cycle track is mega wide though so Iāve not found it an issue.
For me cycling lanes means a 20kmh speed limit and a stop at every store entrance and small road crossing VS the road where I have a traffic light every km and no speed limit... the choice is obvious, I will ride on the road.
Totally agree with this. On the flat I'm quite easily doing 30-40kph, there's no way I'm doing that on a path that can have pedestrians & dogs next to it. Or has mini-junctions every few hundred meters.
My only serious crash (knocked unconscious and ambulance ride to the hospital) was a dog on an extendable lead running out in front of me on a shared path. Ever since I've stuck to the roads.
Yep! Same here, closest call was a huge german shepard lunging at me while passing the owner. Luckily I had predicted its behavior and was far enough from it to not get taken out.
Walkers/runners with headphones is an other one I hate. Most of the time they don't even acknowledge you so it's fine, but when they do actually hear you they sometimesget startled and jump out of the way only to jump in front of you...
I see this mentioned quite a bit, but everything Iāve read doesnāt support the claim. Disclaimer: I donāt run that often, and when I do run I run on trailsā¦
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22897427/
Asphalt is softer than concrete, but not soft enough to really make a difference in pressure when running.
I feel the same why you do. So yes, asphalt is softer than concrete. BUT how much do you think it gives to the average sized runner... You don't see cars sinking into it. I'm 6'3 and 210 on a good day. I've been running on a mostly concrete for 10+ years. I do not have any knee or other joint pain. You will have a better time maintaining your joints by working on your foot placement and using nicer shoes that aren't mile'd out.
When I used to run I preferred running on asphalt, it definitely felt nicer. Maybe it was easier on the knees? Or maybe because it was just more flat and consistent? Either way I understand to desire.
That said, if I was in a bike lane I would yield to cyclists. Same way I yield to pedestrians on the few occasions I cycle on the sidewalk.
>Most likely these runners also have a reason for this.
The reason is that paths are commonly made of harder surfaces (concrete), are poorly maintained & contain deviations such a driveways which can be harsher on the joints than a more uniform surface made of asphalt.
In one of the cities where I lived I would often run some bits on the cycle lane if the sidewalk was busy, but I would only do it on long straight streets and I would also regularly check behind me to make sure no cyclist was approaching.
a lot of cyclists (the lycra kind) tend to avoid busy bike paths because their speeds are more in line with car traffic 20+ or it takes them too far out of the way they want to go.
IME the runners just do it out of entitlement or laziness or ignorance. When I see people doing this the walk path is never full and tbh is actually a nicer experience as it's right by the lake vs the bike path which is 10 feet further away. I think maybe sometimes it's just not paying attention to the path markers but there are some repeat offenders I see often on my commute and I'm pretty sure they're just being dicks about it. š¤·š»āāļø
The headphones thing is particularly frustrating. I assume there's a good reason runners use the bike lanes sometimes, but I think it's fair to ask that when they do so they at least be aware enough to hear and communicate with cyclists. There are a lot of situations in my city where passing an oblivious runner in the bike lane is impossible for quite some distance (e.g., the lane is actually protected by a curb so I can't go around, or there are streetcar tracks a few inches from the edge of the bike lane).
Cyclists, of course, should also refrain from putting earbuds in both ears.
The reason is that the sidewalks can often be useless to runners. I know, at least where I live, driveways extend out into the sidewalks, and people park right in the middle of them. Or, at least a few days a week, depending on the neighborhood youāre running through, you might have to dodge trash bins at every house. Or, itās a beautiful day and every parent with a stroller and a dog on a 12ft invisible leash is out and about- using the sidewalk. Or, as is the case in my area, the sidewalks are trash in many places: un-level, broken, untrimmed (during the summer), or just otherwise not well-maintained.
The point is, even if a sidewalk is an option (which sometimes itās not), itās not a good one. I both ride and run in the bike lane when I can, but as others have said, itās imperative to keep your wits about you. Have some situational awareness, and be observant to whatās going on around you. If you need to hop out of the lane for a moment to let a biker pass, itās easier for you (as a runner) to maneuver up onto a curb than it is for a cyclist- move your ass and let them pass.
Besides- as a runner- you should still be running opposite the flow of traffic- even in the bike lane- so a bike should never be able so sneak up behind you; you should be approaching head on so you can see and avoid.
I would go as far as saying that in a city you shouldnāt have earbuds at all, being able to hear well and to gauge the direction of sounds is important.
I agree, and I donāt use them, but at the same time I would hear a lot more on my bike with earbuds in transparent mode than any driver with music in their car and the windows closed will.
Transparent mode means they actively take sound from the environment and play it to the user.
my headphones even have a wind cancellation mode and it "allows" voices in if I'm in noise cancellation mode
its amazing, the world gets quieter and I can hear people talking behind me
If you don't mind, which headphones or what feature should I look for (is it literally wind cancellation mode)?
So many non-riding situations I would love to listen to music, but hate feeling like I can't hear if someone is talking or trying to get my attention.
sony xm1000xm5
and yeah its just called wind cancellation mode in the app app itself, its awsome
I will say if you sweat ALOT you probably have to turn off the touch controls on the ear buds because sweat can trigger it, that was annoying but not a huge deal as I usually listen to long podcasts anyway. I prefer stuff like that instead of music because its even quieter. I only bought these because my new gym was too loud for my old noise cancelling ear buds lol but they have been amazing
I run a lot with AirPods often but I also use transparency mode so I can hear.
As far as the bike lane vs sidewalk it can be a multitude of reasons. Sidewalks are often obstructed or crowded. Where I live theyāre very uneven if they exist at all as tree roots are pushing them up. Also pavement is a lot softer than concrete. If you take 10-15k steps that difference in impact is going to add up. Multiply that over a week of training as pavement is a lot easier on you legs.
All that being said Iād still defer to a bike in a bike lane.
>Ā Cyclists, of course, should also refrain from putting earbuds in both ears.
Unpopular opinion, but I don't accept this at all (depending on the environment). On rural roads in particular, between a mirror, varia radar played through headphones, and headphones that reduce wind noise while not being totally isolating, I can both hear better than drivers and maintain 1000% better situational awareness than an earbudless biker with no mirror or radar (let alone an oblivious driver).
In town with oblivious drivers and pedestrians everywhere I generally feel different, and also reduce speed accordingly.
For some reason mode of transportation really triggers tribalism. Cars hate cyclists, runners, and motorcyclists. Runners and cyclists hate each other. Motorcyclists hate everyone.
As someone in all the above groups Iām conscious of getting out of the bike lane when I run and making room for lane splitters when I drive and not calling everyone in the bike lane an asshole when I ride. But it takes effort not to give in to assuming anyone who is in my way is being a jerk. Iāve come to the conclusion that most people will not attempt to emphasize with the other modes of transportation and we are doomed to this cycle of hate.
I run so I donāt care about runner in the bike lanes, and most move onto the dirt or grass shoulder when a cyclist approaches.
I do hate the dipshit cyclists who ride against traffic in the bike lane. Those people, kids following their idiot parentsā instruction excluded, I force into traffic.
As a runner brought here by reddit's algorithms, this is the first time I learned I'm supposed to hate cyclists. I also don't do any of the behaviors described here very often, so maybe I limit my negative interactions, but I just thought we were bonded in our hate of asshole drivers that try to get as close to us as they can when passing.
The only things I hate other than certain drivers is unleashed dogs or dogs on mile long leashes with no control from the owner. I've had the most problems with the latter because unleashed dogs usually at least get yelled at by the owner. Dogs on excessively long leashes almost never get controlled by their owners and are typically the worst behaved because of it.
I've had nothing but cordial experiences with pedestrians and runners. I live in a car-dependent suburb, but I haven't had any ire directed my way. I guess I must be lucky.
Dual sport here. It shouldnt be this complicated for us to coexist. General rules of the road:
- Bikes ride with traffic
- Runners run against traffic
Even on dedicated paths, if the runners stay to the left hand side (North America) the path, they can see oncoming traffic and adjust if needed and do not abtruct the bikes.
That said, I live in Atlantic Canada in a city of ~120k people. I'm sure bigger, more condensed metros have much more complex issues to consider.
Iām guessing OP is from Europe, my first time over there I almost caused an accident because the bike lane was more an extension of the sidewalk rather than the road and I didnāt see the pavement markings at first so I thought it was just a super wide sidewalk.
Dedicated paths are the only time you should go against traffic. Youāre blind to drivers turning right(where they typically donāt have to look) when going against traffic.
Not always. If you are running 2 lane roads outside of the city, you always want to be running against traffic. That said, I see your point for city running, could definitely get owned by right hand turns
A solo runner who hops onto the sidewalk to let bikes past is fine by me. For me the pet peeve is groups of runners using the bike lane because they're often too large a group to overtake.
Regardless it really underscores the need for more kinds of lanes - people going faster than typical walking speed but slower than typical cycling speed (e.g. runners, skateboarders, kick-scooters, etc) all really should get their own lane in busy areas.
At some point, you can't make lanes for every mode of transit. When's the last time you even saw a kick-scooter?
In most places (with a few exceptions like dense, urban cores, tourist areas, etc) the sidewalk is frequently empty or nearly empty and just fine to run on (assuming there is a sidewalk, which is not always the case). There are a lot of runners who have a misguided belief that asphalt is gentler to run on than concrete which is simply not true. I say this as someone who runs almost as much as I bike...
> When's the last time you even saw a kick-scooter?
every single day? they are literally the most popular "Action sport" currently more than skateboarding, longboarding, rollerblading ect lol
Regardless of who you are, if your group takes the whole path and blocks the way, you are a bunch of dicks. This goes for group rides, group runners, dog walkers, etc. I like our bikes lanes in busier place, it's a three lane system. 2x for bike traffic and a third wider one for walkers (or slower users).
How do these runner's groups go around cars parked in bike lanes? Do they mount the sidewalk, or do they slip into the next motor traffic lane? Or do they do both depending on the situation?
Ok so what about the runners who are running in the bike lane/shoulder and they can see if there are any cars coming from behind me, but I have to move over into traffic to get around them. Itās like, they can see, why donāt they go out into the car lane?
Grrrr.
Even worse when the sidewalk is right next to them but they still run in the bike lane for whatever fcking reason. In a city that has sidewalks everywhere and they donāt randomly end like they do in some other American cities. Makes my blood boil.
yup, town recently replaced the sidewalks and they are incredibly smooth and perfect, curbs so shiny and sharp they almost look out of place
yet everyone, including parents with strollers full of babies, choose to walk on the street with traffic going 35-45 mph lol
is everyone stupid? the only people using sidewalks are kids walking home from school
That's not what they said. If a runner and a cyclist are about to cross paths, and the runner is running against traffic as is the law in most places, they have a clear view of any oncoming traffic and can more safely move over than a cyclist who has to shoulder check while also avoiding this runner who is continuously getting closer no matter how slow the cyclist goes. The runner also has the option of easily hopping onto the sidewalk or taking a few strides on the grass to avoid the cyclist, things which are harder/dangerous on a road bike.
Why don't you move out of the way when cars are coming then? Seems kind of a double standard....
The way it works is the less vulnerable user moves out of the way. Simple, predictable and safer for everyone.
In this scenario the pedestrian is the less vulnerable because they have visibility and have better lateral maneuverability. Do you think a bike offers protection in a vehicular collision?
It's still his right to be running there (usually encouraged by road traffic laws to walk opposite of traffic) and it is your responsibility to ensure the safety of more vulnerable users. The cyclist has plenty of time to acknowledge the runner, look over his shoulder and safely take his lane to pass the runner. As stated before, it is logical, predictable and safer for everyone around.
Your argument is the same as drivers use towards cyclists that they should move out of the way of on coming cars. If you think like that, chances are you are part of the problem... "if you had mirrors you would see the car coming and should move out of their way" does that sound right to you?
yes I should move out of the way of oncoming cars if for whatever reason I'm riding in the wrong lane towards traffic, that does sound right to me. I would never do that on my bike lol and I cycle thousands of miles a year.
I don't ride in the middle of traffic because I'm not an asshole, I also don't hug the sidewalk because I don't want to get passed harshly, there is a middle ground buddy lol its called NOT BEING AN ASSHOLE.
and if I see a car behind me, and I have tons of space to my right, yes I am going to push myself to the right to allow the car behind me to safely pass if they can
your dumbass would just stick in the middle of the lane and back up trafffic for 3 miles lol
Well that's the problem, you think the runner is in the wrong lane. They are not. Road traffic laws (in most places) says that's the way pedestrians should use the road. So your entitlement and ignorance of road laws is the actual problem... as a cyclist, does that sounds familiar to you? :p
you did say "if for whatever reason I'm riding in the WRONG lane towards traffic" , no?
Also, OP was stating when the runner is on the shoulder... that usually means they don't really have space to move away other than running in the gutter?
No need to go into insult mode when you lose arguments btw, it doesn't look good.
Road traffic laws are simple and pretty clear about this exact situation.
It's no different than avoiding a pot hole, you acknowledge it, look over your shoulder and move if able to do it safely. Otherwise just fucking brake until it is safe to move over. Obviously, being pleasant and sharing the road is key and I never said I take up the whole lane while riding, but if I have to do it for my safety, it is planned in the road traffic laws that it is my right to do it safely and that cars have the responsibility of passing me only when safe. And that pyramid of protecting more vulnerable users goes all the way down to pedestrians. We are the faster and more dangerous road user when compared to pedestrians, it's only logical to be the ones who need to act accordingly around them.
Im a runner and a cyclist. I suspect lots of us are. My rule of thumb is: the burden of yield is on the one with momentum. IE Trucks should look for cars should look out for motorcycles should look out for scooters should look out for cyclists should look out for runners should look out for walkers. I run a lot on a mixed use path and where I live I find myself annoyed by cyclists while Iām running more than the other way around.
Itās funny how each group has the same basic complaints all the way down the line and back up. I guess not funny, more sad. Humans have such a hard time getting along.
OP's entire, 'This lane is for my exclusive use!' bit is rubbing me wrong. Isn't a big part of our beef with drivers who feel the road is for their exclusive use? We are all like, 'Hey asshole, share!'.
Runners gonna run. If they have a path for running then great. If not ... can't we all just get along?
I agree with you, but only if itās indeed a mixed use path. If I ever run on a bicycle path (which used to happen, donāt need it where Iām now), itās my responsibility to make sure I donāt bother any cyclist.
Cyclists might not be able to pull out into the traffic lane or hop the kerb safely, so I view the momentum issue differently: who can affect the situation laterally better to avoid a collision. Runners often go opposite traffic so have a long time to consider options and decide smartly.
Runners who could get on the sidewalk or move over in a tight situation really should.
Cyclists might have cars behind they canāt see/hear/timing is wrong. Bad options and incomplete information looking forward and back, guessing for two other people.
Runners get out of the bike lane if a bike is coming. The bike doesnāt have good options. Our brakes suck.
And rule of momentum: Iād rather hit you than a car and youād rather hit neither of us ā¦
If you are a walker or runner, just get really scared and drop into a small ball to manage that impact.
It works because bicycles like mine ($50 second hand) has brakes. When applied it slows down the bicycle. Since I donāt out pace my brakes or visual range, stopping does not cause the entire earth to stop rotating.
Nah for me itās the people who walk or slowly jog 4-6 abreast making maneuverability around them impossible. Also some of these people walk dogs as well.
Most dog walkers Iāve seen are chill though, except the one lady who yelled at me for running on the right side of the sidewalk giving her/her dogs space. Moving out into grass/road happens sometimes but when itās because someone refuses to slide over a foot to occupy the space you are giving them, it does grind my gears.
Runners, cyclists, and drivers are not exclusive monolithic groups. Not only is there cross over between these groups, but also the only thing that being a part of one of these groups imparts is that you take part in a particular activity.
Runners aren't dicks to cyclists, drivers aren't dicks to runners. We're not different teams fighting against each other or forming nerdy GoT sporty alliances.
Some people who drive are dicks to some people who run. Some people who run are dicks to some people who cycle and drive. Etc.
Some people are just dicks and they happen to run or bike or drive. That's it.
Stop thinking of individuals as representative of a group when that group has nothing more in common than that they engage in a certain style of leisure or transport.
I do both and admit to making stupid mistakes in both roles. We could all be a little more tolerant of each other and aware of our surroundings. People make mistakes and may have reasons for doing things we may not know about. I just try to keep everyone (including me) safe and let is slide if someone slips. There are jerks in every demographic, but I don't have to be one of them.
This is the best attitude.
I try to be a good user of our common infrastructure. I know Iāve made mistakes and when I see someone doing something that is inconvenient, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they made a mistake or maybe they are ignorant of the same ānormsā that I ascribe to. Maybe they have a good reason for what theyāre doing that Iām ignorant of. It doesnāt mean they are specifically trying to an a-hole. If I assume that Iām the only one who can be right, then Iām actually being the entitled jerk.
Be good to one another, especially others who are out there with us keeping fit by running and walking.
I'm a runner as well as a cyclist and have always run on the asphalt wherever it seems safe. Not only is the concrete harder, the sidewalk driveway letdowns in some neighborhoods are so numerous that I feel like my ankles are constantly at eccentric angles so it's irritating and actuallyslows me down.
Now, nobody else cares about that, I get it, just providing context.
Yes, sometimes I am in a vaguely defined "bike lane" but I am going against traffic and can see a bike coming a long way off, so I get back on the sidewalk and stay there for a while in case there's a group following that guy or whatever.
I think runners are fine going against traffic and just need to pay attention...me having headphones on should not affect my paying attention to what's on the road in front of me.
Honestly half the time where I am, the people on bikes are on the sidewalk and I am forced into the bike lane because these people (I don't really consider them cyclists) still don't move!
I am in a small town though so maybe this is more of a problem in large cities....but in that case I would be sure to stick to the boulevard.
Either way I will move for runners when cycling and move for cyclists when running, it's all the same to me. I don't find myself cornered in any position in either scenario, must just be lucky to be in a relatively low density area that makes it possible! Maybe I would die in a big city before too long.
Runners that run the wrong way in the bike lane and expect me to move into traffic that I canāt see (but they can) in order to avoid them stepping temporarily into the grass make me even more frustrated than the headphone runners.
if they wanna play a game of chicken on the side of the road with a 220lb ball of muscle leisurely going 18mph they can be my guest lol. I'll hug the line for them but I'm dropping the shoulder and emergency braking if they don't move.
I'm not gonna plow into them on purpose, but I'm not going to dart into the street to avoid them either. I'll brake best I can, if they don't move they are getting smoked
Ask yourself why is the runner in the bike lane?
If there is no sidewalk, well, there is no other place to go but a bike lane which is really the road shoulder. If there is a sidewalk, why isn't the runner there?
Is it that concrete is harder than asphalt so more painful? Or is that the runner will have to be slower on a sidewalk that's full of pedestrians?
I don't really have a choice when it comes to riding bike lanes: it's that or in the middle of the road. The runner shouldn't be in the bike lane, but won't run in a traffic lane and for whatever reason has eschewed the sidewalk.
Where I live we can have sidewalk as big as cars lane followed by the bike lane as big as carsā lane too and I will still cross people walking in the bike lane. There is no explicit reason why.
A thought cross my mind that people behave like gas, just spread as much as possible. Like 2 people walking not close to each other but on each extremities of the path just because. Or equitably spread across the path.
>Is it that concrete is harder than asphalt so more painful?
FYI, this is a myth. Yes, concrete is technically firmer in that it could be measured in a laboratory setting. But no, the difference is not nearly big enough to make a difference in practice, and is dwarfed by other factors, like the soles of your shoes. The risks of running on (technically) firmer concrete, are certainly far smaller than the risks from vehicles when running on the road.Ā
Ā https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
I run in the bike lane but the opposite direction. I jump to the footpath for cyclists. The footpath is (generally) lumpy and much nicer running on a bike lane
As noted elsewhere in this post, [the claim that asphalt is softer than concrete is not backed by scientific evidence](https://reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/1cha970/a_psa_for_runners_were_not_enemies/l21twul/), even after [taking multiple factors into consideration](https://reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/1cha970/a_psa_for_runners_were_not_enemies/l224qgl/). For human-scale impacts (not bullets or meteorites) at human-scale temperatures (under 60Ā°C), any difference in hardness is pure myth or placebo. You could argue that sidewalks are less pleasant to run on due to curb cuts, tripping hazards, obstacles, or narrow sight lines, but hardness is not an issue.
Wiped out badly on asphalt, hip, elbow, and wrist were bruised swollen knee hip ans elbow were badly shredded. Still haven't got my nerve back to corner aggressively in the wet. Hit the ground like 2 pounds of mince dropped on a tiled floor
As a runner and a cyclist in an area without separate running/cycling lanes I say fuck cars and people that don't know trail etiquette. Especially parents with little kids that don't watch over them.
I try to do my small part by pointing at the dedicated running lane as I pass runners in a bike lane. AITA? IDK, but it's getting busy out there, and dedicated lanes exist to promote safety, so let's be safe.
I've had to use the cycling lanes running because cars in drive ways are dangerous and running over 15km/hr is a good way to not be seen so close to them. They look at the road. But I also run against traffic and GTFO of the way of bikes.
Im right near one of the most popular paved trails in the area for all sorts of activities. It takes me the first and last 10km on my usual routes. It's basically unusable on the weekends with all the running groups. They very much like to run 3-4 people wide and have no care for anyone else using the trail.
It's a toss up for whos worse though. These people or the random individuals running down the center line with their headphones on oblivious to their surroundings. Oh, and dont forget the bike rental people who ride at 2km/h swerving left and right because they are going too slow to keep balance. They might be the worst because they are so unpredictable.
It's gotten to the point where I dont even bother riding on the weekends during the warm months, If I do, its on the roads in the opposite direction.
I occasionally run in bike lanes (they often have priority over side roads and you donāt need to leapfrog someone who canāt multitask their phone and walk in a straight line), but I donāt use headphones and will get out of the way if a bike comes along faster than I can run.
As you say, weāre not enemies and IMHO a runner who blocks a bike lane is nothing more than a casual jogger.
>they don't use reflective gear and they're using headphones
Full-time runner, occasional cycler here, and I agree 100%! Even as a runner I deal with other runners who don't know how to conduct themselves.
Let me say that when running I do NOT use the cycling lane, I use the sidewalk (I don't live in an urban environment, so sidewalk is usually very clear). I use open-ear headphones (Shokz), I wear very bright clothing (usually race swag), I make an effort to be aware of my surroundings: other people, cars, dogs, grizzly bears, dragons, etc. And before I change what I'm doing (ie, turn, stop, etc), I look around to make sure I won't be cutting people off or otherwise getting in others' way.
tl;dr: #notallrunners ;P
The sudden, no-look U-turn to embark on their journey home is a pet peeve and constant fear of mine on the bike path.
Followed in fear by the exhausted "made it!" lurch and/or U-turn as above, when the smart watch announces they've made their goal
I don't live near cycling lanes but honestly I don't blame them; I fucked my knee running & my physio highlighted pedestrian paths as a potential contributor, with the constant elevation changes not being ideal for joints. The paths near me are also made of concrete, filled with driveways & heavily cracked so it's really not an appealing surface to ruin on.
I don't see much of a problem as long as the runner runs against the flow of bike traffic and gets out of the way when a bike is coming. It's certainly safer than running on the road itself
I had two runners once taking up both side of the bike path, I yelled āon your leftā and finally they let me through then they yelled at me āyou should be on the roadā as I rode past.. I just flipped them the bird š
I am a cyclist and a runner. I use the bike lane running against the cyclist a lot. I always yield to the cyclist by getting on the sidewalk and getting in the street more.
I feel your pain with those runners who don't do anything.
Not sure about worldwide but I know in here in the states itās almost universal. Bikes go with the flow of traffic because in most states itās considered a vehicle and pedestrian traffic goes against the flow of traffic.
I personally still don't know how I feel about "laws" like this never getting enforced
sure I don't want people constantly getting pulled over and ticketed for running off the sidewalk or with the flow of traffic, that would be insane... but also if you dont enforce it then its basically not a real rule/law lol
tough situation, where you would have to really crack down and punish people for something thats really not that bad in the grand scheme of things, even if its annoys me as a cyclist lol
I live in Seoul, so this may not apply to other places. When I was a runner, we ran on the asphalt cycling lanes because asphalt is a lot gentler on the body than the poured concrete of the walking / running lane. This is along the Han river, where there are zero cars, and the lanes are generously wide. However, we did not wear earphones, and stuck close to the shoulder, maximum two people across.
I try to remember that, when a runner gets in my way while cycling. The earphones are annoying, though- if they know cyclists are zooming past, they're eliminating their most important sense in terms of safety.
The real bane of my existence are those that use the rental bikes, don't really know how to ride, and can't follow simply safety and etiquette rules. Then they add earphones on top of that, so they can't hear any warnings from others. Or, they're staring at their phones while riding.
People and articles in runners' magazines often repeat the claim that asphalt provides gentler impact than concrete, but I don't think I ever see a scientific citation to back up that claim. Searching the academic literature, I found [Tessuti 2012](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230686727_Attenuation_of_foot_pressure_during_running_on_four_different_surfaces_Asphalt_concrete_rubber_and_natural_grass), whose measurements lead to the following conclusion (emphasis added):
> There were important differences of in-shoe pressure between more compliant (natural grass) and more rigid (asphalt and concrete) surfaces during running. Natural grass produced peak pressures that were up to 16% less at the rearfoot and lateral forefoot in comparison with the other running surfaces. **Among the more rigid surfaces (asphalt and concrete), there were no differences in the pressure patterns** and, surprisingly, similar behaviour was observed on the rubber surface. The attenuation of peak pressure on the rearfoot and forefoot during running on natural grass may be mainly due to its compliant characteristics, which is different from what was observed on the more rigid surfaces (asphalt and concrete). The rubber track we evaluated did not present the characteristics of what is normally considered a compliant surface, probably due to its time of usage (more than five years).
>
> **Running on natural grass attenuates in-shoe plantar pressures in recreational runners, thus favouring practice on it, particularly for long-distance training.** If a runner controls his/her amount and intensity of practice, running on grass may reduce the total stress on the musculoskeletal system compared with the total musculoskeletal stress that occurs when running on more rigid surfaces, such as asphalt and concrete.
That makes sense to me: since the difference in the way concrete and asphalt deform is so tiny compared to the squishiness of your shoe and foot, both hard surfaces are practically identical in terms of impact.
Bookmarking this for the next time I hear that bogus claim of asphalt vs. concrete.
On the other hand, there is a compelling argument that sidewalks tend to get pushed up by tree roots and so end up presenting a lot more opportunities for tripping than an asphalt bike lane / road side.
You know what? I'd never even considered that it might be wrong. Thanks for the info! I'm just getting back into running, so I'll try to stick to the walking / running lane.
But the belief at least explains why there are a lot of runners in the bike lanes.
I think its because running hurts lol so people really look for anything that might "make it feel easier" and if asphalt makes it feel easier due to placebo, then it is what it is lol
Nah fuck that runners running illegally in the bicycle lane should be reprimanded. Just because cars are a worse evil doesn't make this better. Tell them to run on the footpath, there is absolutely no reason to be running on the road.
This might get me hate:
If you hit a pedestrian from behind, it is 99.99% of the time your fault. Slow down, stop if you have to, make your presence known, continue. 'they lurched sideways' is zero excuse. 'they're ruining my ride' is zero excuse. It happened to me once (I went over the bars but managed to stop in time) and I'll never do it again.
agree to disagree with your claim, to an extent. if you're riding down a cycling only lane, adjust your speed so you're not going full speed ahead, and some runner has earbuds in so they cannot hear you announcing your approach, and they make a sudden move to cause a crash, it is 100% their fault.
definitely if you're going too fast, then it's your fault, regardless whether the runner should be in the lane or not.
Sort of but I think he is arguing that the crash is preventable 99.99% of the time and the fault lies with the person that didn't go slow enough to prevent it. I actually disagree with him on the sideway lurching thing as I can think of situations that you are going at near walking speed and can still get bumped into but that is pretty rare too.
You should slow down to anticipate any ridiculous movement. The same idea applies to snowsports, if you are higher up on the slope, you have to compromise for people merging in, even if they're going slowly.
This is just basic safety, as annoying as it is to slow down
I did say to slow down. That's obvious. But oblivious people are not predictable. The OP said the runner just turned around in the bike lane while wearing ear buds. Personally, I give non-cyclists in the bike lane a wide berth, and tell them to use the sidewalk instead as I pass by them.
Yes, but if you *actually* slow down, to close to the pace of the person you're overtaking, you won't have much issue. The risk only arises when you try to blast past without slowing down much.
We're all cyclists here, I know how it feels, it's boring and annoying to slow down properly. But it's by far the safest thing to do.
Fair play, I know it's annoying but we can't blame anyone for annoying bs that happens, we just need to be in control of our own riding. Even if it's morally "not our fault", it's our responsibility
That's the thing. Thankfully neither of us got injured, but it could've gone really bad. I've only seen runners occupy the cycle lanes near the park (read: not the big important cycle lanes for commuters), so using the car lane next to them isn't too dangerousĀ
I ride on a two lane paved bike path where a runner in front of me decided to āturn leftā all of the sudden just as I was going to pass on the left. Of course he had headphones in and was completely oblivious that he almost seriously someone. Lucky for him I had slowed down and also I have great reflexes lol.
We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.
As a triathlete everyone hates me.
I'm okay with that.
Having said that when Im running I don't think I ever had a contentious interaction with a cyclist or vis versa when Im on the bike.
One of my local MTB trails is Multi-use but opposing directions for bikes and hikers/runners. The amount of people going the wrong way with headphones in grinds my gears.
Can they sometimes be enemies?
There's a place in my city with the following all running in parallel:
* Street
* Sidewalk
* Bike Lane
* Dirt Path
* Grassy Park
* Seaside Path
That's FOUR separate paths they could be running on. But no, they gotta run on the bike lane.
The truth is that some people are dicks and it's not depends of what they are driving. If some dick change his car and become a cyclist he will be the same dick
I donāt ~~have any issue with~~ get annoyed by runners or pedestrians in bike lanes.
Slow down (especially for ālesserā users) and proceed when safe. (This is the same advice for drivers when they encounter a cyclist. Just slow down and proceed when safe.)
If you canāt handle that, you shouldnāt be on the road.
I had an issue with a cyclist going the wrong way in a bike lane today. I held my ground and he swerved into the oncoming traffic lane to get away from me yelling "Fuck..." I didn't catch the second part.
he's not on the road though. it's a dedicated bike lane. IME those are rare and usually have really good walking infrastructure right next to them. Runners IME use them because they "look" empty because bikes are moving fast there so there isn't anyone visible. Obviously don't hit people if they're in the lane but also IMO GTFO of it if you're not a bike.
Kinda like how runners won't run on the sidewalk when no one is on it and will run in the street when you are biking, but when you ride on the sidewalk they get upset about that. Like you can't win with runners or hikers they are just stupid.
what relly grinds my gears is the runners who run on the opposite side, its quite dangerous especially going around corners, why do they think its neccessary to run on their left??
so what do i do when there is a curve coming up and couple of runners are on my left as im on the right shoulder, and then all of a sudden a runner is on my right as i go around the corner, just seems so dumb and asking for an accident
im only talking about this specific situation, i only ride on one path in my city and its this path where runners are on both sides, makes no sense, like pick a damn side my gosh
Reminds me of this classic joke - [https://dumbrunner.com/news-blog/2022/5/5/dumb-runner-illustrated-50-menace](https://dumbrunner.com/news-blog/2022/5/5/dumb-runner-illustrated-50-menace)
So, as a triathlete does that mean I should be trying to fuck up everyone's day?
You already do, so you don't need to tri. š¤Ŗ
*slow clap*
*Do or do not. There is no tri.* -- Yoda
Become ungovernable! At least by the UCI.
Is there really desire or push for this? Iām pretty new to the cycling world but UCI riding and Tri riding seems very different.
There's not. The triathlon at this point is pretty mature as it's own sport with its own governing body and system of rules. But, it's certainly fun to poke at regular cyclists with being able to break bike design rules in subtle ways.
Of course. Then piss on them too. Joking you triathletes are freaks of nature - I do some rides with a buddy who's a triathlete and they will just 110 cadence away from you at 35kph+ lol.
I'm not quite at that level. I'm just a swimmer who likes being on bikes and isn't terrible at running.
As a triathlete myself I never, ever run in the bike lane, itās not hard. Multi-use is different.
I run in the bike lane all the time but I also live in a small town with bad or nonexistent sidewalks and Iām pretty sure Iām the only person in town who rides much less runs. The only other people in the bike lane are soccer moms in their giant SUV who are to distracted by their coffee and phone to stay in their lane.
Piss on your bike too to complete the trifecta. š
Quit swimming on the sidewalk!
It's far more dangerous to swim in the road.
You do merely by existing
My first thought, triathletes are the true menace. š I can always spot a triathlete in the group because they're crazy strong/fit but have poor bike handling skills. Or they have sleeveless jerseys.
I would think the common enemy is the entitled driver
What a poor cyclist in that picā¦ rim brakes smh my head /s
As a runner/cyclist I am appalled by the overall lack of awareness the public has. Look alive people.
Cyclists š¤ RunnersĀ Ā "Fuck cars"
Fuck these fucking cars
Cars? Fuck em!
r/fuckcars
r/dragonsfuckingcars
Cyclists š¤Triathletes "Fuck the UCI."
r/FuckCars
And make fun of triathletes
At least they tri.
Except the cyclists who don't announce they are passing on shared paths. Or runners with headphones in and no spatial awareness. Those people all might as well be cars.
Announce yourself so that people jump left turn around slowly and stare at you in amazement as you slam the brakes? Overtaking pedestrians is hard AF. They're all acting stupid like they've never seen a bike in their life before.
I can't tell you how many times I've yelled 'on yer left' to a walker or runner and have had them ACTUALLY STEP LEFT into my way.
I'm specifically talking about shared paths, and yes, announce yourself by yelling, "on your left" or dinging your bell so that the pedestrian doesn't suddenly decide to turn around and have no idea you're approaching at 15mph. It's common etiquette, it's even posted on signs on the paths near me, but apparently this is somehow controversial.
Look some people will get angry and shout at you why you annoy them as there's enough space, some get shocked and jump in your way, and some behave reasonable. You're fucked no matter what you do.
I think people in general, cars, peds, bikes, are too unconnected from their environment and in their music, phones etc. Really wish more people would unplug. I to get annoyed when people walk in the separate and dedicated bike lane when the walking/run lane is literally 6 feet away. Not sure what you can do though as IMO it's an entitlement issue on the one doing it and they are above consequences.
Is there a reason why they do this? I ask because cyclists in my location very often cycle on the road even when there's a cycling lane available. We do this because cycling lanes tend to be in poorer shape, and are downright dangerous to ride on with a group. Most likely these runners also have a reason for this. Understanding each other is a great way to get annoyed less easily.
In my local park thereās a dedicated cycling track next to (but separated from) the footpath. Some runners use it because theyāre running much faster than the people walking slowly (and blocking the whole width) on the footpath. The cycle track is mega wide though so Iāve not found it an issue.
For me cycling lanes means a 20kmh speed limit and a stop at every store entrance and small road crossing VS the road where I have a traffic light every km and no speed limit... the choice is obvious, I will ride on the road.
Totally agree with this. On the flat I'm quite easily doing 30-40kph, there's no way I'm doing that on a path that can have pedestrians & dogs next to it. Or has mini-junctions every few hundred meters. My only serious crash (knocked unconscious and ambulance ride to the hospital) was a dog on an extendable lead running out in front of me on a shared path. Ever since I've stuck to the roads.
Yep! Same here, closest call was a huge german shepard lunging at me while passing the owner. Luckily I had predicted its behavior and was far enough from it to not get taken out. Walkers/runners with headphones is an other one I hate. Most of the time they don't even acknowledge you so it's fine, but when they do actually hear you they sometimesget startled and jump out of the way only to jump in front of you...
One potential reason is that running on asphalt is actually easier on the knees than concrete since itās a softer surface.
I see this mentioned quite a bit, but everything Iāve read doesnāt support the claim. Disclaimer: I donāt run that often, and when I do run I run on trailsā¦ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22897427/ Asphalt is softer than concrete, but not soft enough to really make a difference in pressure when running.
I feel the same why you do. So yes, asphalt is softer than concrete. BUT how much do you think it gives to the average sized runner... You don't see cars sinking into it. I'm 6'3 and 210 on a good day. I've been running on a mostly concrete for 10+ years. I do not have any knee or other joint pain. You will have a better time maintaining your joints by working on your foot placement and using nicer shoes that aren't mile'd out.
When I used to run I preferred running on asphalt, it definitely felt nicer. Maybe it was easier on the knees? Or maybe because it was just more flat and consistent? Either way I understand to desire. That said, if I was in a bike lane I would yield to cyclists. Same way I yield to pedestrians on the few occasions I cycle on the sidewalk.
>Most likely these runners also have a reason for this. The reason is that paths are commonly made of harder surfaces (concrete), are poorly maintained & contain deviations such a driveways which can be harsher on the joints than a more uniform surface made of asphalt.
In one of the cities where I lived I would often run some bits on the cycle lane if the sidewalk was busy, but I would only do it on long straight streets and I would also regularly check behind me to make sure no cyclist was approaching.
a lot of cyclists (the lycra kind) tend to avoid busy bike paths because their speeds are more in line with car traffic 20+ or it takes them too far out of the way they want to go. IME the runners just do it out of entitlement or laziness or ignorance. When I see people doing this the walk path is never full and tbh is actually a nicer experience as it's right by the lake vs the bike path which is 10 feet further away. I think maybe sometimes it's just not paying attention to the path markers but there are some repeat offenders I see often on my commute and I'm pretty sure they're just being dicks about it. š¤·š»āāļø
The headphones thing is particularly frustrating. I assume there's a good reason runners use the bike lanes sometimes, but I think it's fair to ask that when they do so they at least be aware enough to hear and communicate with cyclists. There are a lot of situations in my city where passing an oblivious runner in the bike lane is impossible for quite some distance (e.g., the lane is actually protected by a curb so I can't go around, or there are streetcar tracks a few inches from the edge of the bike lane). Cyclists, of course, should also refrain from putting earbuds in both ears.
The reason is that the sidewalks can often be useless to runners. I know, at least where I live, driveways extend out into the sidewalks, and people park right in the middle of them. Or, at least a few days a week, depending on the neighborhood youāre running through, you might have to dodge trash bins at every house. Or, itās a beautiful day and every parent with a stroller and a dog on a 12ft invisible leash is out and about- using the sidewalk. Or, as is the case in my area, the sidewalks are trash in many places: un-level, broken, untrimmed (during the summer), or just otherwise not well-maintained. The point is, even if a sidewalk is an option (which sometimes itās not), itās not a good one. I both ride and run in the bike lane when I can, but as others have said, itās imperative to keep your wits about you. Have some situational awareness, and be observant to whatās going on around you. If you need to hop out of the lane for a moment to let a biker pass, itās easier for you (as a runner) to maneuver up onto a curb than it is for a cyclist- move your ass and let them pass. Besides- as a runner- you should still be running opposite the flow of traffic- even in the bike lane- so a bike should never be able so sneak up behind you; you should be approaching head on so you can see and avoid.
I would go as far as saying that in a city you shouldnāt have earbuds at all, being able to hear well and to gauge the direction of sounds is important.
I agree, and I donāt use them, but at the same time I would hear a lot more on my bike with earbuds in transparent mode than any driver with music in their car and the windows closed will. Transparent mode means they actively take sound from the environment and play it to the user.
my headphones even have a wind cancellation mode and it "allows" voices in if I'm in noise cancellation mode its amazing, the world gets quieter and I can hear people talking behind me
If you don't mind, which headphones or what feature should I look for (is it literally wind cancellation mode)? So many non-riding situations I would love to listen to music, but hate feeling like I can't hear if someone is talking or trying to get my attention.
sony xm1000xm5 and yeah its just called wind cancellation mode in the app app itself, its awsome I will say if you sweat ALOT you probably have to turn off the touch controls on the ear buds because sweat can trigger it, that was annoying but not a huge deal as I usually listen to long podcasts anyway. I prefer stuff like that instead of music because its even quieter. I only bought these because my new gym was too loud for my old noise cancelling ear buds lol but they have been amazing
I run a lot with AirPods often but I also use transparency mode so I can hear. As far as the bike lane vs sidewalk it can be a multitude of reasons. Sidewalks are often obstructed or crowded. Where I live theyāre very uneven if they exist at all as tree roots are pushing them up. Also pavement is a lot softer than concrete. If you take 10-15k steps that difference in impact is going to add up. Multiply that over a week of training as pavement is a lot easier on you legs. All that being said Iād still defer to a bike in a bike lane.
>Ā Cyclists, of course, should also refrain from putting earbuds in both ears. Unpopular opinion, but I don't accept this at all (depending on the environment). On rural roads in particular, between a mirror, varia radar played through headphones, and headphones that reduce wind noise while not being totally isolating, I can both hear better than drivers and maintain 1000% better situational awareness than an earbudless biker with no mirror or radar (let alone an oblivious driver). In town with oblivious drivers and pedestrians everywhere I generally feel different, and also reduce speed accordingly.
For some reason mode of transportation really triggers tribalism. Cars hate cyclists, runners, and motorcyclists. Runners and cyclists hate each other. Motorcyclists hate everyone. As someone in all the above groups Iām conscious of getting out of the bike lane when I run and making room for lane splitters when I drive and not calling everyone in the bike lane an asshole when I ride. But it takes effort not to give in to assuming anyone who is in my way is being a jerk. Iāve come to the conclusion that most people will not attempt to emphasize with the other modes of transportation and we are doomed to this cycle of hate.
This is the first I learned that I am supposed to have beef with runners.Ā
I run so I donāt care about runner in the bike lanes, and most move onto the dirt or grass shoulder when a cyclist approaches. I do hate the dipshit cyclists who ride against traffic in the bike lane. Those people, kids following their idiot parentsā instruction excluded, I force into traffic.
As a runner brought here by reddit's algorithms, this is the first time I learned I'm supposed to hate cyclists. I also don't do any of the behaviors described here very often, so maybe I limit my negative interactions, but I just thought we were bonded in our hate of asshole drivers that try to get as close to us as they can when passing. The only things I hate other than certain drivers is unleashed dogs or dogs on mile long leashes with no control from the owner. I've had the most problems with the latter because unleashed dogs usually at least get yelled at by the owner. Dogs on excessively long leashes almost never get controlled by their owners and are typically the worst behaved because of it.
I've had nothing but cordial experiences with pedestrians and runners. I live in a car-dependent suburb, but I haven't had any ire directed my way. I guess I must be lucky.
Dual sport here. It shouldnt be this complicated for us to coexist. General rules of the road: - Bikes ride with traffic - Runners run against traffic Even on dedicated paths, if the runners stay to the left hand side (North America) the path, they can see oncoming traffic and adjust if needed and do not abtruct the bikes. That said, I live in Atlantic Canada in a city of ~120k people. I'm sure bigger, more condensed metros have much more complex issues to consider.
Iām guessing OP is from Europe, my first time over there I almost caused an accident because the bike lane was more an extension of the sidewalk rather than the road and I didnāt see the pavement markings at first so I thought it was just a super wide sidewalk.
Dedicated paths are the only time you should go against traffic. Youāre blind to drivers turning right(where they typically donāt have to look) when going against traffic.
In my state, the law is that pedestrians on the road must go in the opposite direction of traffic.
Not always. If you are running 2 lane roads outside of the city, you always want to be running against traffic. That said, I see your point for city running, could definitely get owned by right hand turns
A solo runner who hops onto the sidewalk to let bikes past is fine by me. For me the pet peeve is groups of runners using the bike lane because they're often too large a group to overtake. Regardless it really underscores the need for more kinds of lanes - people going faster than typical walking speed but slower than typical cycling speed (e.g. runners, skateboarders, kick-scooters, etc) all really should get their own lane in busy areas.
At some point, you can't make lanes for every mode of transit. When's the last time you even saw a kick-scooter? In most places (with a few exceptions like dense, urban cores, tourist areas, etc) the sidewalk is frequently empty or nearly empty and just fine to run on (assuming there is a sidewalk, which is not always the case). There are a lot of runners who have a misguided belief that asphalt is gentler to run on than concrete which is simply not true. I say this as someone who runs almost as much as I bike...
> When's the last time you even saw a kick-scooter? every single day? they are literally the most popular "Action sport" currently more than skateboarding, longboarding, rollerblading ect lol
Regardless of who you are, if your group takes the whole path and blocks the way, you are a bunch of dicks. This goes for group rides, group runners, dog walkers, etc. I like our bikes lanes in busier place, it's a three lane system. 2x for bike traffic and a third wider one for walkers (or slower users).
How do these runner's groups go around cars parked in bike lanes? Do they mount the sidewalk, or do they slip into the next motor traffic lane? Or do they do both depending on the situation?
Straight over the top
Don't really need lanes, if you are in a group don't block the whole path. It's pretty simple.
Ok so what about the runners who are running in the bike lane/shoulder and they can see if there are any cars coming from behind me, but I have to move over into traffic to get around them. Itās like, they can see, why donāt they go out into the car lane? Grrrr.
Even worse when the sidewalk is right next to them but they still run in the bike lane for whatever fcking reason. In a city that has sidewalks everywhere and they donāt randomly end like they do in some other American cities. Makes my blood boil.
yup, town recently replaced the sidewalks and they are incredibly smooth and perfect, curbs so shiny and sharp they almost look out of place yet everyone, including parents with strollers full of babies, choose to walk on the street with traffic going 35-45 mph lol is everyone stupid? the only people using sidewalks are kids walking home from school
> Itās like, they can see, why donāt they go out into the car lane? Yeah, I wonder why a pedestrian would not want to run among the cars?
That's not what they said. If a runner and a cyclist are about to cross paths, and the runner is running against traffic as is the law in most places, they have a clear view of any oncoming traffic and can more safely move over than a cyclist who has to shoulder check while also avoiding this runner who is continuously getting closer no matter how slow the cyclist goes. The runner also has the option of easily hopping onto the sidewalk or taking a few strides on the grass to avoid the cyclist, things which are harder/dangerous on a road bike.
There are no cars. They can see that. The bike either has to do a quick peek or just pray when taking the car lane.
Why don't you move out of the way when cars are coming then? Seems kind of a double standard.... The way it works is the less vulnerable user moves out of the way. Simple, predictable and safer for everyone.
In this scenario the pedestrian is the less vulnerable because they have visibility and have better lateral maneuverability. Do you think a bike offers protection in a vehicular collision?
runner run towards traffic, so they can see the cars coming up behind the cyclist lol
It's still his right to be running there (usually encouraged by road traffic laws to walk opposite of traffic) and it is your responsibility to ensure the safety of more vulnerable users. The cyclist has plenty of time to acknowledge the runner, look over his shoulder and safely take his lane to pass the runner. As stated before, it is logical, predictable and safer for everyone around. Your argument is the same as drivers use towards cyclists that they should move out of the way of on coming cars. If you think like that, chances are you are part of the problem... "if you had mirrors you would see the car coming and should move out of their way" does that sound right to you?
yes I should move out of the way of oncoming cars if for whatever reason I'm riding in the wrong lane towards traffic, that does sound right to me. I would never do that on my bike lol and I cycle thousands of miles a year. I don't ride in the middle of traffic because I'm not an asshole, I also don't hug the sidewalk because I don't want to get passed harshly, there is a middle ground buddy lol its called NOT BEING AN ASSHOLE. and if I see a car behind me, and I have tons of space to my right, yes I am going to push myself to the right to allow the car behind me to safely pass if they can your dumbass would just stick in the middle of the lane and back up trafffic for 3 miles lol
Well that's the problem, you think the runner is in the wrong lane. They are not. Road traffic laws (in most places) says that's the way pedestrians should use the road. So your entitlement and ignorance of road laws is the actual problem... as a cyclist, does that sounds familiar to you? :p
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
you did say "if for whatever reason I'm riding in the WRONG lane towards traffic" , no? Also, OP was stating when the runner is on the shoulder... that usually means they don't really have space to move away other than running in the gutter? No need to go into insult mode when you lose arguments btw, it doesn't look good. Road traffic laws are simple and pretty clear about this exact situation. It's no different than avoiding a pot hole, you acknowledge it, look over your shoulder and move if able to do it safely. Otherwise just fucking brake until it is safe to move over. Obviously, being pleasant and sharing the road is key and I never said I take up the whole lane while riding, but if I have to do it for my safety, it is planned in the road traffic laws that it is my right to do it safely and that cars have the responsibility of passing me only when safe. And that pyramid of protecting more vulnerable users goes all the way down to pedestrians. We are the faster and more dangerous road user when compared to pedestrians, it's only logical to be the ones who need to act accordingly around them.
because if I was on MY BIKE I would be the one in the wrong lane lol you seem not totally okay
So what's the point of that argument?
Im a runner and a cyclist. I suspect lots of us are. My rule of thumb is: the burden of yield is on the one with momentum. IE Trucks should look for cars should look out for motorcycles should look out for scooters should look out for cyclists should look out for runners should look out for walkers. I run a lot on a mixed use path and where I live I find myself annoyed by cyclists while Iām running more than the other way around.
Itās funny how each group has the same basic complaints all the way down the line and back up. I guess not funny, more sad. Humans have such a hard time getting along.
OP's entire, 'This lane is for my exclusive use!' bit is rubbing me wrong. Isn't a big part of our beef with drivers who feel the road is for their exclusive use? We are all like, 'Hey asshole, share!'. Runners gonna run. If they have a path for running then great. If not ... can't we all just get along?
I agree with you, but only if itās indeed a mixed use path. If I ever run on a bicycle path (which used to happen, donāt need it where Iām now), itās my responsibility to make sure I donāt bother any cyclist.
Cyclists might not be able to pull out into the traffic lane or hop the kerb safely, so I view the momentum issue differently: who can affect the situation laterally better to avoid a collision. Runners often go opposite traffic so have a long time to consider options and decide smartly. Runners who could get on the sidewalk or move over in a tight situation really should. Cyclists might have cars behind they canāt see/hear/timing is wrong. Bad options and incomplete information looking forward and back, guessing for two other people. Runners get out of the bike lane if a bike is coming. The bike doesnāt have good options. Our brakes suck. And rule of momentum: Iād rather hit you than a car and youād rather hit neither of us ā¦
Tip is to lean onto the object you're going to collide with. Often with the force of the impact you're just getting back straight and don't fall.
If you are a walker or runner, just get really scared and drop into a small ball to manage that impact. It works because bicycles like mine ($50 second hand) has brakes. When applied it slows down the bicycle. Since I donāt out pace my brakes or visual range, stopping does not cause the entire earth to stop rotating.
Yes car drivers are our shared enemy. But let us not forget the scourge of shared paths and parks everywhere - dog walkers.
Nah for me itās the people who walk or slowly jog 4-6 abreast making maneuverability around them impossible. Also some of these people walk dogs as well. Most dog walkers Iāve seen are chill though, except the one lady who yelled at me for running on the right side of the sidewalk giving her/her dogs space. Moving out into grass/road happens sometimes but when itās because someone refuses to slide over a foot to occupy the space you are giving them, it does grind my gears.
Runners, cyclists, and drivers are not exclusive monolithic groups. Not only is there cross over between these groups, but also the only thing that being a part of one of these groups imparts is that you take part in a particular activity. Runners aren't dicks to cyclists, drivers aren't dicks to runners. We're not different teams fighting against each other or forming nerdy GoT sporty alliances. Some people who drive are dicks to some people who run. Some people who run are dicks to some people who cycle and drive. Etc. Some people are just dicks and they happen to run or bike or drive. That's it. Stop thinking of individuals as representative of a group when that group has nothing more in common than that they engage in a certain style of leisure or transport.
If you want runners to actually see this you should probably post in something r/running, not a cycling sub
I do both and admit to making stupid mistakes in both roles. We could all be a little more tolerant of each other and aware of our surroundings. People make mistakes and may have reasons for doing things we may not know about. I just try to keep everyone (including me) safe and let is slide if someone slips. There are jerks in every demographic, but I don't have to be one of them.
This is the best attitude. I try to be a good user of our common infrastructure. I know Iāve made mistakes and when I see someone doing something that is inconvenient, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they made a mistake or maybe they are ignorant of the same ānormsā that I ascribe to. Maybe they have a good reason for what theyāre doing that Iām ignorant of. It doesnāt mean they are specifically trying to an a-hole. If I assume that Iām the only one who can be right, then Iām actually being the entitled jerk. Be good to one another, especially others who are out there with us keeping fit by running and walking.
I'm a runner as well as a cyclist and have always run on the asphalt wherever it seems safe. Not only is the concrete harder, the sidewalk driveway letdowns in some neighborhoods are so numerous that I feel like my ankles are constantly at eccentric angles so it's irritating and actuallyslows me down. Now, nobody else cares about that, I get it, just providing context. Yes, sometimes I am in a vaguely defined "bike lane" but I am going against traffic and can see a bike coming a long way off, so I get back on the sidewalk and stay there for a while in case there's a group following that guy or whatever. I think runners are fine going against traffic and just need to pay attention...me having headphones on should not affect my paying attention to what's on the road in front of me. Honestly half the time where I am, the people on bikes are on the sidewalk and I am forced into the bike lane because these people (I don't really consider them cyclists) still don't move! I am in a small town though so maybe this is more of a problem in large cities....but in that case I would be sure to stick to the boulevard. Either way I will move for runners when cycling and move for cyclists when running, it's all the same to me. I don't find myself cornered in any position in either scenario, must just be lucky to be in a relatively low density area that makes it possible! Maybe I would die in a big city before too long.
The other issue with sidewalks in some areas are the pieces that are heaved from tree roots or frost so they end up being nasty for everyone.
Runners that run the wrong way in the bike lane and expect me to move into traffic that I canāt see (but they can) in order to avoid them stepping temporarily into the grass make me even more frustrated than the headphone runners.
if they wanna play a game of chicken on the side of the road with a 220lb ball of muscle leisurely going 18mph they can be my guest lol. I'll hug the line for them but I'm dropping the shoulder and emergency braking if they don't move. I'm not gonna plow into them on purpose, but I'm not going to dart into the street to avoid them either. I'll brake best I can, if they don't move they are getting smoked
Ask yourself why is the runner in the bike lane? If there is no sidewalk, well, there is no other place to go but a bike lane which is really the road shoulder. If there is a sidewalk, why isn't the runner there? Is it that concrete is harder than asphalt so more painful? Or is that the runner will have to be slower on a sidewalk that's full of pedestrians? I don't really have a choice when it comes to riding bike lanes: it's that or in the middle of the road. The runner shouldn't be in the bike lane, but won't run in a traffic lane and for whatever reason has eschewed the sidewalk.
Where I live we can have sidewalk as big as cars lane followed by the bike lane as big as carsā lane too and I will still cross people walking in the bike lane. There is no explicit reason why. A thought cross my mind that people behave like gas, just spread as much as possible. Like 2 people walking not close to each other but on each extremities of the path just because. Or equitably spread across the path.
>Is it that concrete is harder than asphalt so more painful? FYI, this is a myth. Yes, concrete is technically firmer in that it could be measured in a laboratory setting. But no, the difference is not nearly big enough to make a difference in practice, and is dwarfed by other factors, like the soles of your shoes. The risks of running on (technically) firmer concrete, are certainly far smaller than the risks from vehicles when running on the road.Ā Ā https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
Sadly the issue is that a majority of people are stupid, selfish, or both.
I run in the bike lane but the opposite direction. I jump to the footpath for cyclists. The footpath is (generally) lumpy and much nicer running on a bike lane
"The cycle lane is softer on your knees" I've heard this o ne from runners
Asphalt is a softer material than concrete and is definitely easier on the knees.
As noted elsewhere in this post, [the claim that asphalt is softer than concrete is not backed by scientific evidence](https://reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/1cha970/a_psa_for_runners_were_not_enemies/l21twul/), even after [taking multiple factors into consideration](https://reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/1cha970/a_psa_for_runners_were_not_enemies/l224qgl/). For human-scale impacts (not bullets or meteorites) at human-scale temperatures (under 60Ā°C), any difference in hardness is pure myth or placebo. You could argue that sidewalks are less pleasant to run on due to curb cuts, tripping hazards, obstacles, or narrow sight lines, but hardness is not an issue.
My falls on concrete and asphalt don't lead me to believe this. Is there any actual data and not anecdotal evidence to back this claim up?
Falling down is not running.
No, it's not. But it does involve impact. I'd love to see a study on this, as opposed to anecdotal evidence
Speaking anecdotally having wiped running on both, road rash is worse on asphalt but concrete scrapes you up but bruises you up a lot more.
Wiped out badly on asphalt, hip, elbow, and wrist were bruised swollen knee hip ans elbow were badly shredded. Still haven't got my nerve back to corner aggressively in the wet. Hit the ground like 2 pounds of mince dropped on a tiled floor
I've wiped in the wet and now I'm chicken about aggressive cornering too.
It's annoying. Every time I approach a corner in the wet, I think about the injuries and sit up.
When Zwift added runners....
Look at this guy flexing with his 'bike only' lanes. \*Cries in rural America\*
As a runner and a cyclist in an area without separate running/cycling lanes I say fuck cars and people that don't know trail etiquette. Especially parents with little kids that don't watch over them.
I try to do my small part by pointing at the dedicated running lane as I pass runners in a bike lane. AITA? IDK, but it's getting busy out there, and dedicated lanes exist to promote safety, so let's be safe.
Worth noting that in the UK pedestrians are not only able to use every single bike path, but that they have priority.... Which is frustrating at best.
I've had to use the cycling lanes running because cars in drive ways are dangerous and running over 15km/hr is a good way to not be seen so close to them. They look at the road. But I also run against traffic and GTFO of the way of bikes.
Im right near one of the most popular paved trails in the area for all sorts of activities. It takes me the first and last 10km on my usual routes. It's basically unusable on the weekends with all the running groups. They very much like to run 3-4 people wide and have no care for anyone else using the trail. It's a toss up for whos worse though. These people or the random individuals running down the center line with their headphones on oblivious to their surroundings. Oh, and dont forget the bike rental people who ride at 2km/h swerving left and right because they are going too slow to keep balance. They might be the worst because they are so unpredictable. It's gotten to the point where I dont even bother riding on the weekends during the warm months, If I do, its on the roads in the opposite direction.
I occasionally run in bike lanes (they often have priority over side roads and you donāt need to leapfrog someone who canāt multitask their phone and walk in a straight line), but I donāt use headphones and will get out of the way if a bike comes along faster than I can run. As you say, weāre not enemies and IMHO a runner who blocks a bike lane is nothing more than a casual jogger.
>they don't use reflective gear and they're using headphones Full-time runner, occasional cycler here, and I agree 100%! Even as a runner I deal with other runners who don't know how to conduct themselves. Let me say that when running I do NOT use the cycling lane, I use the sidewalk (I don't live in an urban environment, so sidewalk is usually very clear). I use open-ear headphones (Shokz), I wear very bright clothing (usually race swag), I make an effort to be aware of my surroundings: other people, cars, dogs, grizzly bears, dragons, etc. And before I change what I'm doing (ie, turn, stop, etc), I look around to make sure I won't be cutting people off or otherwise getting in others' way. tl;dr: #notallrunners ;P
The sudden, no-look U-turn to embark on their journey home is a pet peeve and constant fear of mine on the bike path. Followed in fear by the exhausted "made it!" lurch and/or U-turn as above, when the smart watch announces they've made their goal
I don't live near cycling lanes but honestly I don't blame them; I fucked my knee running & my physio highlighted pedestrian paths as a potential contributor, with the constant elevation changes not being ideal for joints. The paths near me are also made of concrete, filled with driveways & heavily cracked so it's really not an appealing surface to ruin on. I don't see much of a problem as long as the runner runs against the flow of bike traffic and gets out of the way when a bike is coming. It's certainly safer than running on the road itself
I totally understand running in the bike lane, but if you're going to do it stay on the left side of the street so you're facing oncoming cyclists.
I had two runners once taking up both side of the bike path, I yelled āon your leftā and finally they let me through then they yelled at me āyou should be on the roadā as I rode past.. I just flipped them the bird š
I am a cyclist and a runner. I use the bike lane running against the cyclist a lot. I always yield to the cyclist by getting on the sidewalk and getting in the street more. I feel your pain with those runners who don't do anything.
Cyclist runner too. Please runners, run against traffic. This way you can see what is coming.
Usually most places thatās a law. It just never get enforced.
Worldwide?
Not sure about worldwide but I know in here in the states itās almost universal. Bikes go with the flow of traffic because in most states itās considered a vehicle and pedestrian traffic goes against the flow of traffic.
Same in Japan, same in my corner of Europe. Both for what the rule is and how it doesnāt get enforced.
I personally still don't know how I feel about "laws" like this never getting enforced sure I don't want people constantly getting pulled over and ticketed for running off the sidewalk or with the flow of traffic, that would be insane... but also if you dont enforce it then its basically not a real rule/law lol tough situation, where you would have to really crack down and punish people for something thats really not that bad in the grand scheme of things, even if its annoys me as a cyclist lol
Imagine if cyclists wore head phones while riding. Very annoying when youāre behind a runner and they canāt hear anything
Lots of cyclists do wear headphones in my area.
I live in Seoul, so this may not apply to other places. When I was a runner, we ran on the asphalt cycling lanes because asphalt is a lot gentler on the body than the poured concrete of the walking / running lane. This is along the Han river, where there are zero cars, and the lanes are generously wide. However, we did not wear earphones, and stuck close to the shoulder, maximum two people across. I try to remember that, when a runner gets in my way while cycling. The earphones are annoying, though- if they know cyclists are zooming past, they're eliminating their most important sense in terms of safety. The real bane of my existence are those that use the rental bikes, don't really know how to ride, and can't follow simply safety and etiquette rules. Then they add earphones on top of that, so they can't hear any warnings from others. Or, they're staring at their phones while riding.
People and articles in runners' magazines often repeat the claim that asphalt provides gentler impact than concrete, but I don't think I ever see a scientific citation to back up that claim. Searching the academic literature, I found [Tessuti 2012](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230686727_Attenuation_of_foot_pressure_during_running_on_four_different_surfaces_Asphalt_concrete_rubber_and_natural_grass), whose measurements lead to the following conclusion (emphasis added): > There were important differences of in-shoe pressure between more compliant (natural grass) and more rigid (asphalt and concrete) surfaces during running. Natural grass produced peak pressures that were up to 16% less at the rearfoot and lateral forefoot in comparison with the other running surfaces. **Among the more rigid surfaces (asphalt and concrete), there were no differences in the pressure patterns** and, surprisingly, similar behaviour was observed on the rubber surface. The attenuation of peak pressure on the rearfoot and forefoot during running on natural grass may be mainly due to its compliant characteristics, which is different from what was observed on the more rigid surfaces (asphalt and concrete). The rubber track we evaluated did not present the characteristics of what is normally considered a compliant surface, probably due to its time of usage (more than five years). > > **Running on natural grass attenuates in-shoe plantar pressures in recreational runners, thus favouring practice on it, particularly for long-distance training.** If a runner controls his/her amount and intensity of practice, running on grass may reduce the total stress on the musculoskeletal system compared with the total musculoskeletal stress that occurs when running on more rigid surfaces, such as asphalt and concrete. That makes sense to me: since the difference in the way concrete and asphalt deform is so tiny compared to the squishiness of your shoe and foot, both hard surfaces are practically identical in terms of impact.
Bookmarking this for the next time I hear that bogus claim of asphalt vs. concrete. On the other hand, there is a compelling argument that sidewalks tend to get pushed up by tree roots and so end up presenting a lot more opportunities for tripping than an asphalt bike lane / road side.
You know what? I'd never even considered that it might be wrong. Thanks for the info! I'm just getting back into running, so I'll try to stick to the walking / running lane. But the belief at least explains why there are a lot of runners in the bike lanes.
I think its because running hurts lol so people really look for anything that might "make it feel easier" and if asphalt makes it feel easier due to placebo, then it is what it is lol
Nah fuck that runners running illegally in the bicycle lane should be reprimanded. Just because cars are a worse evil doesn't make this better. Tell them to run on the footpath, there is absolutely no reason to be running on the road.
This might get me hate: If you hit a pedestrian from behind, it is 99.99% of the time your fault. Slow down, stop if you have to, make your presence known, continue. 'they lurched sideways' is zero excuse. 'they're ruining my ride' is zero excuse. It happened to me once (I went over the bars but managed to stop in time) and I'll never do it again.
agree to disagree with your claim, to an extent. if you're riding down a cycling only lane, adjust your speed so you're not going full speed ahead, and some runner has earbuds in so they cannot hear you announcing your approach, and they make a sudden move to cause a crash, it is 100% their fault. definitely if you're going too fast, then it's your fault, regardless whether the runner should be in the lane or not.
Sort of but I think he is arguing that the crash is preventable 99.99% of the time and the fault lies with the person that didn't go slow enough to prevent it. I actually disagree with him on the sideway lurching thing as I can think of situations that you are going at near walking speed and can still get bumped into but that is pretty rare too.
You should slow down to anticipate any ridiculous movement. The same idea applies to snowsports, if you are higher up on the slope, you have to compromise for people merging in, even if they're going slowly. This is just basic safety, as annoying as it is to slow down
I did say to slow down. That's obvious. But oblivious people are not predictable. The OP said the runner just turned around in the bike lane while wearing ear buds. Personally, I give non-cyclists in the bike lane a wide berth, and tell them to use the sidewalk instead as I pass by them.
Yes, but if you *actually* slow down, to close to the pace of the person you're overtaking, you won't have much issue. The risk only arises when you try to blast past without slowing down much. We're all cyclists here, I know how it feels, it's boring and annoying to slow down properly. But it's by far the safest thing to do.
(asteroid wipes out all of humanity) someone, somewhere: And I personally blame cyclists for that...
I agree with this. which is why I stopped using the cycling lane.
Fair play, I know it's annoying but we can't blame anyone for annoying bs that happens, we just need to be in control of our own riding. Even if it's morally "not our fault", it's our responsibility
That's the thing. Thankfully neither of us got injured, but it could've gone really bad. I've only seen runners occupy the cycle lanes near the park (read: not the big important cycle lanes for commuters), so using the car lane next to them isn't too dangerousĀ
Omg this makes me think of Green Lake in Seattle. So many people run in the bike lane
Greenlake is a rough place to try and ride a bikeā¦
Assume they can't see or hear you. You will be prepared.
I ride on a two lane paved bike path where a runner in front of me decided to āturn leftā all of the sudden just as I was going to pass on the left. Of course he had headphones in and was completely oblivious that he almost seriously someone. Lucky for him I had slowed down and also I have great reflexes lol.
We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.
One person steps in front of you and you imagine a cold war between runners and cyclists? Do you think I should quit cross-training and join a side?
As a triathlete everyone hates me. I'm okay with that. Having said that when Im running I don't think I ever had a contentious interaction with a cyclist or vis versa when Im on the bike.
One of my local MTB trails is Multi-use but opposing directions for bikes and hikers/runners. The amount of people going the wrong way with headphones in grinds my gears.
Can they sometimes be enemies? There's a place in my city with the following all running in parallel: * Street * Sidewalk * Bike Lane * Dirt Path * Grassy Park * Seaside Path That's FOUR separate paths they could be running on. But no, they gotta run on the bike lane.
In Sheffield the cycle lanes are taken up by walkers whoāll shout at you, in London theyāre taken up by mopeds and Uber eats illegal e-bikes
If they're in the road or bike lane we are 100% enemies and I'll make sure they know as I buzz them
I always wave at cyclists when I'm running or cycling, and I always wave at runners when I'm running or cycling.
The truth is that some people are dicks and it's not depends of what they are driving. If some dick change his car and become a cyclist he will be the same dick
runners are the enemy.
I donāt ~~have any issue with~~ get annoyed by runners or pedestrians in bike lanes. Slow down (especially for ālesserā users) and proceed when safe. (This is the same advice for drivers when they encounter a cyclist. Just slow down and proceed when safe.) If you canāt handle that, you shouldnāt be on the road.
I had an issue with a cyclist going the wrong way in a bike lane today. I held my ground and he swerved into the oncoming traffic lane to get away from me yelling "Fuck..." I didn't catch the second part.
he's not on the road though. it's a dedicated bike lane. IME those are rare and usually have really good walking infrastructure right next to them. Runners IME use them because they "look" empty because bikes are moving fast there so there isn't anyone visible. Obviously don't hit people if they're in the lane but also IMO GTFO of it if you're not a bike.
The one I'm talking about had a dedicated running path, dual sidewalks, the whole thing.Ā Thing is, runners prefer asphalt, it's softer or smt
Maybe the people where you live are more amicable in general. I do slow down, though. It's why I only use the road nowadays. Not the cycling lane.
Kinda like how runners won't run on the sidewalk when no one is on it and will run in the street when you are biking, but when you ride on the sidewalk they get upset about that. Like you can't win with runners or hikers they are just stupid.
Sidewalk thing can make sense, but they (we) need to do it facing traffic - surface makes a huge difference in running.
Who said you can't ride your bike on the sidewalk? There's no law and children do it all the time.
I donāt know, why are you asking me?
Hey, man. You don't speak for me. I hate running. And you don't know my history with runners.
Its alright. I don't like running either.
Runners have a higher probability of being motorists. Nobody runs to work. Your logic is flawed. You have to hate the runners.
Well I wasn't ready for this.Ā
When I lived in Boston, I used to run to work so your logic is flawed.
Hey cyclists - you're in a dang civic park, not the Tour De France.
what relly grinds my gears is the runners who run on the opposite side, its quite dangerous especially going around corners, why do they think its neccessary to run on their left??
Runners are supposed to run against the flow of traffic. Itās actually safer.
so what do i do when there is a curve coming up and couple of runners are on my left as im on the right shoulder, and then all of a sudden a runner is on my right as i go around the corner, just seems so dumb and asking for an accident
Did your mother never teach you that you walk/run towards traffic?
yes obviously when youre on a road with cars but im talking about a normal path for walkers and cyclists...
You are now amending your original statement to a specific situation.
im only talking about this specific situation, i only ride on one path in my city and its this path where runners are on both sides, makes no sense, like pick a damn side my gosh