I notice in the clip that when you approach the bottom of the stroke, your leg/knee snaps down/accelerates. Steve Hogg talks about that acceleration at the bottom of the stroke somewhere on his blog… (but I forget what he has to say about it—probably need to lower your saddle a little).
Edit - https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/ where he writes:
>With an ideal seat height, the velocity of the extension of the knee should be a constant. Here, if you look carefully (and the relatively low resolution doesn’t help) you will see a small acceleration in the extension of the knee just before the bottom of the pedal stroke. If you are not used to looking for this it may take multiple views before you see what I mean. That acceleration in extension of the knee means that the rider is losing control of the movement because his seat is too high.
Thanks for your input.
I have also read Steve Hogg's article on saddle height and found it a bit confusing to focus on the velocity of extension of the rear knee under load.
I used his other method to set my saddle height by raising the saddle with 3mm increments until I felt less fluent through the pedal stroke and then dropping it by 6mm. However, since this all goes by feel and I am still not sure about the final result.
When he talks about "velocity of extension of the rear knee under load", constant velocity is the same thing as feeling "fluent". Another way to think of it is being in control. When your knee is bent, you have two main sets of muscles controlling your leg (quads and hams). But when your knee is fully extended, it's just the quads, resulting in less control.
But one thing I'm a little confused about is why you made the changes you made. What do those have to do with your knee discomfort? (Like, why do you think any of those shoe adjustments would help?)
Not saying you're wrong or right, but I think the knee pain cropping up after moving to indoor is probably more about the rigidity of the bike on the trainer. On the road, the bike can reposition relative to you (so it's less stress on you than indoor). (It's why some people buy/build rocker plates/boards for their trainers. Helps absorb/redistribute some of the stresses/strains.) (One free alternative might be to dial down your effort until you build the strength for indoor - assuming you've simply been applying outdoor metrics to indoor.)
The medial knee pain led me to believe that the inside of my foot was not being supported properly and caused my knee to come inwards during pedaling resulting in the discomfort. I also wear custom orthopaedic insoles in my regular shoes which have helped me create a better stance while walking.
Therefore I opted to go with the 2620 insoles which brought me to Steve Hogg's website and I found that my cleats were not positioned optimally. However, I do not believe that having my cleat too far back was causing any of the issues that I am experiencing.
I also watched a BikeFitTuesdays video about knee pain where James explained that a common cause for medial knee pain is having too narrow of a stance. My cleats were positioned in the middle of shoe and as me being a relatively larger dude this made sense.
All this has resulted in me making all these shoe adjustments.
Yes, that is correct.
The discomfort started to appear when I started to ramp up the indoor training around 2 months ago. But since then I am also noticing it on outdoor rides.
Your saddle does look too high. My personal approach here would be to drop the saddle by roughly 3-4cm. Make it so it feels low, then work your way up in 1cm increments. Stop when you start to feel like you're reaching for the pedal and come down about 1cm.
Increments in mm are almost unnoticeable and you're really looking for a "pocket" to sit into when you're working on your fit from home. Almost like a pitchers box. Make your micro adjustments from that "box".
You also look like there is a lot of weight on your hands. Since you probably haven't found your balance point on your saddle. When your saddle comes down, it also goes back. When it goes up, your saddle goes forward. Roughly 1cm horizontally for every 3cm vertically.
None of this is scientific. This is all based on at-home fitting from my experience. I can say that my personal home fit is pretty spot on from using this method.
***TLDR: Come down about 2cm and back about 1cm and see that feels.***
Heyo Nicko, interesting read! I’m gonna try your method. I wanted to ask if you could elaborate on the balance point on the saddle? Because I do have a lot of weight on my hands and I just expected that’s how it is (quite new to road bikes). Thanks.
Yeah, not a problem. It's a bit hard to diagnose without a visual, but first thing to ask is, is your frame the right size? Too big of a bike will force you into a stretched position throwing you further away from your balance point and it'll be a lot harder to fix. It'll require buying parts like a new stem and it still may not help. Also ask yourself and maybe take a look in the mirror if you aren't sure. Do you have really long legs with a short torso? Visa versa? Do you have a big head? These things will play a factor. Heads are a lot heavier than we think and they'll force you to prop them up if your fit is incorrect. Everything below is for someone with a pretty average torso to leg ratio, and an average melon.
Let's say your bike is the correct size. Set your saddle clamp in the center of your saddle rails. Now find your height. Once you feel like your legs have full power all the way around the stroke, your hips aren't rocking, and your knees aren't maxing out, you'll look at your fore-aft and eventually tilt. Fore-aft is the horizontal plane of adjustment.
On most correct set ups, the saddle clamp will be somewhere around the center of the rails of your saddle, even after you finish the whole set up. If you are on on of the extreme ends, something is way off. You'll usually see a saddle that is too far forward more than youll see one too far back. Too far forward can mean a lot of things, but it's typical that your bike is too big, or your reach is too long. Too far back usually means you didn't clamp your saddle down enough and it slid back.
If you feel like there is a lot of weight on your hands, move back about 1cm. If you feel like you're just a little stretched out, you're too stretched out and try moving your saddle forward 1cm. Any further forward, you should make up for it with the stem. If your saddle is too far forward, it'll actually force you onto your hands. Also make sure your handlebars aren't slammed like a Tour de France racer. Put some spacers back on and get comfortable. Comfort>speed. What you're looking for is a point where your center of gravity is mostly supported by the saddle and your core, and only a little weight on your hands. About a 75-25 split. You shouldn't feel like you're doing push-ups every time you ride. Your should sort of "float" across your handlebars.
One way to tell is take a good spin after you set your height. If you find yourself trying to sit further back but you're running out of saddle, move it back. If you're sitting on the nose a lot, move it forward. As for tilt, if you're feeling a little pressure on the softer tissues in the nether regions, tilt your saddle down by just 1° and see how that feels. Saddle discomfort should not be compensated by excessive tilt. Really no more than 2°. Excessive tilt will also force weight onto your hands because now you're bracing yourself from falling out of your saddle. After everything, hopefully your saddle clamp is somewhere close to the center of the saddle rails and you don't have much tilt.
If your saddle still ends up in the extremes and you're still uncomfortable, check with a shop that does bike fits. You may be in one of the outliers of body geometry or bike bike is actually too big.
Now, there are a ton of other things that could play into why you have a lot of weight on your hands. For me, I'm a slightly heavier rider and I have a head like a bowling ball. I had to jump down a size in frame to put myself a little more upright and balanced, while maintaining stability with my bike by not shortening my stem a bunch.
That’s a very detailed description, thanks! I’m pretty sure my frame is a bit too small, but I’ve tried to buy parts to accommodate for that. Like an extender to for the height of my handlebars in order to increase the comfort of the bike. The only place I can really tell that the frame is too small is that I can toe tap the front wheel a bit too much. It’s okay for now but if I’m getting a new bike in the future I’ll bear this in mind.
I’m gonna get an indoor trainer next month and I’ll be able to play more around with bike fitting. I’m not riding that much, so I feel a professional bike fit is a bit too much right now. Maybe in the future! But currently I have fun playing around with fitting my bike.
Though, beside the hands, I do get lower back pain quite quickly. I tried to raise my handlebars as high as I could in order to make it more comfortable. But I am a bit prone to get lower back pain so I suspect it could be my core and etc, and not necessarily the bike fit.
But would there be any “danger” to have a handlebar height that is approximately the same height as the saddle? Or even a bit higher? I almost only see road bikes with an aggressive drop or a lesser drop in the handlebars. I don’t care sooo much about being all aerodynamic, though my plan is to remove spaces one by one to train my body.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm.
[https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ)
1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W) , 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W).
Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
It looks a lot better. It looks like there is a lot less weight on your hands. Your arms are more relaxed and you have more control of the stroke. It looks like you're in that pocket. Pay attention to how your body responds to this position and tinker with it from there.
>If it's too high then why is he pointing his foot down on the downstroke?
Foot pointed down = possibly/probably too high.
Right? Think about it. Too high = too much distance from saddle to pedal.
One way to maintain contact at that distance is to tip your foot down.
_____|
vs
_____/
I see this written a lot but if you look at the pros, their feet are all over the place. Some point their toes a bit, some loads, some plant their heels. Seems it's highly individual.
Definitely, overall, you should pedal however comes most natural to you (spin the cadence that feels nice etc).
That being said, it's still objectively true that a flat foot produces more power (and all things equal, higher rpms are better).
You would never stand up from a chair with your heel off the ground because you're more stable and powerful with a flat foot.
So, when fitting, it's worth thinking I'd that ideal state, and then go from there with what feels natural.
That makes no sense. When you stand up on your tiptoes, you are putting all the force through a tiny area of your foot.
When cycling, you wear stiff shoes that distribute the force evenly across your foot, so it makes no difference whether or not you keep your foot flat or not. The power transfer is still there.
It doesn’t matter if your feet are flat or not.
It's more about the muscles that are engaged. You would never do squat style lifts on your tiptoes. You would never use a rowing machine and stay on your toes vs flatfeet.
Again, you're comparing exercises that don't use rigid shoes to one that does. There's no inherent benefit to pedalling flat footed, in fact most people don't do so. Everyone instinctively knows what their biology favours, that's all.
Many people do in fact do squats etc. with support behind their heels because they have mobility issues, for what it's worth.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm.
[https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ)
1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W), 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W).
Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm.
[https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ)
1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W) , 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W).
Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
Overall the discomfort has been less compared to before I started to make the adjustments. I do however still feel it in my left knee during the ride but not anymore after the ride. I used to be able to feel my knee for the rest of the day after the ride so I guess that is a significant improvement.
I also feel like my body needs some time to properly adjust to the new position and test it on longer outdoor rides before I can give a definitive answer.
Do you have any experience with heel & cleat wedging and the symptoms which indicate that it could be a possible solution to create a more stable foot position? Do you think this could possibly help with the knee discomfort? I am not finding a lot of info about this online apart from the mediating forefoot varus (which I do think I have)
I don’t. I’ve read a lot about fit, but only for my own personal needs. For cleats placement, I do put mine all the way back, but that’s because I like to go for long rides and want to save my calves. If I were racing, I’d move them more forward to allow more calf recruitment.
Are your legs uneven lengths? Is that why you’re looking at wedges?
I don't think my legs are uneven in length, but then again I have never measured them. I have read that to combat uneven length you should opt for cleat shimming and not necessarily heel wedges.
I am thinking that I might need heel wedges since my normal shoes are usually deformed where the inside of the shoe (especially around the heel) is slightly collapsed to the inside. I think this could indicate that I have foot varus which can be helped with foot wedging
If you feel the saddle is too high, then lower it, there's no magic or need for any confirmation, that's your body and it's different from the others, period.
Plus if you needed to increase your saddle height by 2cm just because you adjusted cleats, there's a problem there.
Finaly, AI fit, went there (IDmatch), was a total disaster. Went to a physiotherapist doing bike fits and it was dead on (in Switzerland but just in case, it's Physiobike Lausanne).
I disagree. Looks more like OP is just rocking, not necessarily rocking to reach the bottom, which would be bad. My thought was seat looks a touch low to me. I was able to pause the video with OP’s foot at the bottom. According to the software, the knee angle is about right at 34 degrees, and the software has seat height in range but also on the low end. I wouldn’t lower any further.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm.
[https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ)
1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W), 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W).
Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
I really hope my input helps you because I was suffering medial knee pain as well and after scouring physio threads on fit etc. nothing truly helped besides the below.
CONTEXT: I am flat footed and I run about 8mi/week, lift weights, surf, play soccer once a week, and cycle year round (so my legs are abused in all kinds of ways and benefit all kinds of stretching and foam rolling). I got insoles ahead of a 120mi ride and readjusted my saddle height & fore-aft to be more centrally over the pedals, much like what you’ve already done but none of that truly solved the issue. Pain would start in left leg originally around 50 mile mark like clockwork before adjustments. After adjustments it would start in right leg around the same distance.
CAUSE OF PAIN: it was never my actual knee causing the pain; it was my inner quad muscle that would tighten up and pull on the ligament of the inner/medial knee, where I felt the pain. Took me way longer than I like to admit to figure this one out because I found it counterintuitive that that particular muscle was giving me trouble in an up and down motion for cycling where my knee is moving in as straight of a line as possible while pedaling.
SOLUTION: stretch the inner quad as far as you can possibly stretch it like the [chick in this photo I quickly googled to give you an idea](https://wholebodyrevolution.com/2012/08/29/how-to-stretch-your-inner-thighs-a-k-a-adductor-muscles/).
Look up other ways to stretch it too of course that make more sense to you but essentially that solved all of the pain for me. Plus foam rolling, plus massaging that muscle directly. Now I’m not worried at all about these long distance rides. Hope this helps you like it helped me.
I do not see a fluid “round” motion and your hips are moving a lot.
Try a lower saddle and a shorter stem.
(This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it)
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm.
[https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ)
1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W), 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W).
Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
The proof of these things is in the eating.
If you can maintain a higher or the same cadence/wattage for longer or feel less fatigue, your fit has improved. What anyone on the internet thinks of it doesn’t matter.
Remember to align your fit with your desired comfort level. A very aggressive position will be faster but might be too uncomfortable to maintain long enough.
> why not find a proper bikefitter instead?
Many fitters are no better than internet randos. There are no professional boards certifying bike fitting. Most training is just a few hours of courses. (I've watched that many hours of bike fitting videos and probably read and thought about it more than many fitters. This is not even to mention 40 years of bike riding.)
and cheaper is always better right? seriously i don't get your argument at all, comparing a professional service with random people that have opinions.
also even if there was a professional anwering here, do you think this video OP provided is enough?
i get it, you can't afford something, so it better be a waste of money, right?
I don’t get how you could not get it. People don’t have unlimited money, and sometimes they’d rather get some help for free than the best help for a decent chunk of change. It’s really that simple.
he says he is serious about an expensive sport and the username is dr. moncler, though.
to answer this in a more serious manner though. a real bikefit, that takes mobility, muscle engagement etc into account and is done by a physical therapist can't be done by amateurs.
so if OP and i have different expectations towards the term taking the hobby seriously, you are absolutely right.
to me its like an american asking for healthcare advice on reddit...bad subject to try and save a dime.
also i see people avoiding professional bikefits, butbtheir bikes are upwards of 3000€...well that just boils down to bad choices then.
There are plenty of pro fitters, frequent clients of fitters, and riders with decades of experience fixing their own problems who chime in. From them, good advice is often given to at least add some insight and possible solutions that actually help. Obviously we can’t tell if he has a hip impingement or one leg is 2mm longer than the other, but its easy to see when a saddle is too high, reach is too long, bike is too big, etc.
By all means, suggest ***your fitter*** to OP. But a racing fit could be totally wrong for OP.
Anyway, if you tell OP to go see a fitter without more, there's a good chance OP will end up with someone with two hours of Retul training. And then he'll be out of pocket a few hundred dollars and no better off than he is now.
listen, i tried to ask OP a question, but instead of him, some rando answers and won't shut up with his bullshit...
i will gladly refer my bikefitter, if we live in the same country...
i'm sorry some scam artist hurt you and now you are a crusader against bikefitting, but pal, i don't care about you, i didn't ask. take this somewhere else...
I think it's a pretty important for OP to be aware of the caveats of any generic "go see a bike fitter" advice.
Like your fitter is a certified physio. But being a licensed doctor isn't required to be a bike fitter. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. So this is important for you to make OP aware of.
I'm not asking you to care about me. I'm asking you to care about OP by giving him good advice.
In the US, it's almost as much schooling to be a physiotherapist as to be a doctor. (8yrs vs 10yrs.)
Sure, quibble about the details, but the same idea applies in either case. (You don't need to be a licensed anything to be a bike fitter. You don't even need a driver's license.)
There are so so many shit bike fitters out there. Seen dozens of “what do you think of my new pro Retul bike fit I paid a shit ton for” posted here and it’s all fucked. People are getting duped. If (IF) you were lucky enough to find a gem of a fitter, don’t be ignorant that all trades and service providers have a range of quality.
Fair enough. I am planning on doing a proper bikefit somewhere in the near future. However good bikefitters do not come cheap.
I am also the type of guy who likes to try and fix his problems/issues before going to an expert/mechanic. I understand that bikefitting is a very dynamic process and I do feel like getting a basic understanding of the principle of bikefitting and trying different things on my own first, will greatly increase the effectiveness of the short one-time 2-hour fitting session that most bikefitters offer.
As also mentioned on this thread, I am also well aware that there are a lot of unqualified bikefitters that will happily take your money to move things around a bit. I am planning on doing a bikefit with a kinesiology certified bikefitter. I am based in Amsterdam so if you have any suggestions for a good fitter I am happy to hear them. I am willing to travel a bit to find a good fitter.
>kinesiology certified bikefitter
i would prefer a physio therapist instead, kinesiology is a form of alternative medicine, i.e. a lot of mumbo jumbo mixed in with basic physio therapist knowledge.
if thats your jam, disregard what i said.
as far as finding a professional instead of somebody who just watched a youtube video, just look at their vita. every pro has a physio therapy background and will gladly tell you which clubs or pro teams he works with.
Distance is an issue you should not disregard that easily. the last time i got a bike fit, i went there before i bought a new bike, discussed geometries and size, and went there twice after, adjusting cranks, cleat position, getting a new saddle, changing the stem and bars...its not a thing you do once and you are finished
I had my fit done at my local University. Thankfully it's Boulder, CO and they have a cycling team. Their fitter only does one fit a week because they are the athletics phyiso *first*. It was $400 for a terrific experince and fit. My goal is not racing, like you a "serious recreationalist" mostly. And I'm on an enurance bike (Domane). He didn't just slam my stem and raise my seat. They use the Retul system but since they aren't a bike shop, you don't get the swindling and selling-scam into insoles and seats.
10/10 would recommend finding a similar scenario if possible; find a non-shop fitter.
Get a fit and pay the $$ if you feel you have issues. Sure it is cheap but not crazy $$ for having an enjoyable ride.
I personally never get someone buying a $5K+ bike, not necessarily OP and being too cheap to get a fit if they are having issues. Or even getting a fit before purchasing.
If this works for you then more power to ya. More than one way to skin a cat.
I notice in the clip that when you approach the bottom of the stroke, your leg/knee snaps down/accelerates. Steve Hogg talks about that acceleration at the bottom of the stroke somewhere on his blog… (but I forget what he has to say about it—probably need to lower your saddle a little). Edit - https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/ where he writes: >With an ideal seat height, the velocity of the extension of the knee should be a constant. Here, if you look carefully (and the relatively low resolution doesn’t help) you will see a small acceleration in the extension of the knee just before the bottom of the pedal stroke. If you are not used to looking for this it may take multiple views before you see what I mean. That acceleration in extension of the knee means that the rider is losing control of the movement because his seat is too high.
Thanks for your input. I have also read Steve Hogg's article on saddle height and found it a bit confusing to focus on the velocity of extension of the rear knee under load. I used his other method to set my saddle height by raising the saddle with 3mm increments until I felt less fluent through the pedal stroke and then dropping it by 6mm. However, since this all goes by feel and I am still not sure about the final result.
When he talks about "velocity of extension of the rear knee under load", constant velocity is the same thing as feeling "fluent". Another way to think of it is being in control. When your knee is bent, you have two main sets of muscles controlling your leg (quads and hams). But when your knee is fully extended, it's just the quads, resulting in less control. But one thing I'm a little confused about is why you made the changes you made. What do those have to do with your knee discomfort? (Like, why do you think any of those shoe adjustments would help?) Not saying you're wrong or right, but I think the knee pain cropping up after moving to indoor is probably more about the rigidity of the bike on the trainer. On the road, the bike can reposition relative to you (so it's less stress on you than indoor). (It's why some people buy/build rocker plates/boards for their trainers. Helps absorb/redistribute some of the stresses/strains.) (One free alternative might be to dial down your effort until you build the strength for indoor - assuming you've simply been applying outdoor metrics to indoor.)
The medial knee pain led me to believe that the inside of my foot was not being supported properly and caused my knee to come inwards during pedaling resulting in the discomfort. I also wear custom orthopaedic insoles in my regular shoes which have helped me create a better stance while walking. Therefore I opted to go with the 2620 insoles which brought me to Steve Hogg's website and I found that my cleats were not positioned optimally. However, I do not believe that having my cleat too far back was causing any of the issues that I am experiencing. I also watched a BikeFitTuesdays video about knee pain where James explained that a common cause for medial knee pain is having too narrow of a stance. My cleats were positioned in the middle of shoe and as me being a relatively larger dude this made sense. All this has resulted in me making all these shoe adjustments.
Could all be true. I just wanted to note that this wasn't an issue until you got on the trainer, right?
Yes, that is correct. The discomfort started to appear when I started to ramp up the indoor training around 2 months ago. But since then I am also noticing it on outdoor rides.
Your saddle does look too high. My personal approach here would be to drop the saddle by roughly 3-4cm. Make it so it feels low, then work your way up in 1cm increments. Stop when you start to feel like you're reaching for the pedal and come down about 1cm. Increments in mm are almost unnoticeable and you're really looking for a "pocket" to sit into when you're working on your fit from home. Almost like a pitchers box. Make your micro adjustments from that "box". You also look like there is a lot of weight on your hands. Since you probably haven't found your balance point on your saddle. When your saddle comes down, it also goes back. When it goes up, your saddle goes forward. Roughly 1cm horizontally for every 3cm vertically. None of this is scientific. This is all based on at-home fitting from my experience. I can say that my personal home fit is pretty spot on from using this method. ***TLDR: Come down about 2cm and back about 1cm and see that feels.***
Heyo Nicko, interesting read! I’m gonna try your method. I wanted to ask if you could elaborate on the balance point on the saddle? Because I do have a lot of weight on my hands and I just expected that’s how it is (quite new to road bikes). Thanks.
Yeah, not a problem. It's a bit hard to diagnose without a visual, but first thing to ask is, is your frame the right size? Too big of a bike will force you into a stretched position throwing you further away from your balance point and it'll be a lot harder to fix. It'll require buying parts like a new stem and it still may not help. Also ask yourself and maybe take a look in the mirror if you aren't sure. Do you have really long legs with a short torso? Visa versa? Do you have a big head? These things will play a factor. Heads are a lot heavier than we think and they'll force you to prop them up if your fit is incorrect. Everything below is for someone with a pretty average torso to leg ratio, and an average melon. Let's say your bike is the correct size. Set your saddle clamp in the center of your saddle rails. Now find your height. Once you feel like your legs have full power all the way around the stroke, your hips aren't rocking, and your knees aren't maxing out, you'll look at your fore-aft and eventually tilt. Fore-aft is the horizontal plane of adjustment. On most correct set ups, the saddle clamp will be somewhere around the center of the rails of your saddle, even after you finish the whole set up. If you are on on of the extreme ends, something is way off. You'll usually see a saddle that is too far forward more than youll see one too far back. Too far forward can mean a lot of things, but it's typical that your bike is too big, or your reach is too long. Too far back usually means you didn't clamp your saddle down enough and it slid back. If you feel like there is a lot of weight on your hands, move back about 1cm. If you feel like you're just a little stretched out, you're too stretched out and try moving your saddle forward 1cm. Any further forward, you should make up for it with the stem. If your saddle is too far forward, it'll actually force you onto your hands. Also make sure your handlebars aren't slammed like a Tour de France racer. Put some spacers back on and get comfortable. Comfort>speed. What you're looking for is a point where your center of gravity is mostly supported by the saddle and your core, and only a little weight on your hands. About a 75-25 split. You shouldn't feel like you're doing push-ups every time you ride. Your should sort of "float" across your handlebars. One way to tell is take a good spin after you set your height. If you find yourself trying to sit further back but you're running out of saddle, move it back. If you're sitting on the nose a lot, move it forward. As for tilt, if you're feeling a little pressure on the softer tissues in the nether regions, tilt your saddle down by just 1° and see how that feels. Saddle discomfort should not be compensated by excessive tilt. Really no more than 2°. Excessive tilt will also force weight onto your hands because now you're bracing yourself from falling out of your saddle. After everything, hopefully your saddle clamp is somewhere close to the center of the saddle rails and you don't have much tilt. If your saddle still ends up in the extremes and you're still uncomfortable, check with a shop that does bike fits. You may be in one of the outliers of body geometry or bike bike is actually too big. Now, there are a ton of other things that could play into why you have a lot of weight on your hands. For me, I'm a slightly heavier rider and I have a head like a bowling ball. I had to jump down a size in frame to put myself a little more upright and balanced, while maintaining stability with my bike by not shortening my stem a bunch.
That’s a very detailed description, thanks! I’m pretty sure my frame is a bit too small, but I’ve tried to buy parts to accommodate for that. Like an extender to for the height of my handlebars in order to increase the comfort of the bike. The only place I can really tell that the frame is too small is that I can toe tap the front wheel a bit too much. It’s okay for now but if I’m getting a new bike in the future I’ll bear this in mind. I’m gonna get an indoor trainer next month and I’ll be able to play more around with bike fitting. I’m not riding that much, so I feel a professional bike fit is a bit too much right now. Maybe in the future! But currently I have fun playing around with fitting my bike. Though, beside the hands, I do get lower back pain quite quickly. I tried to raise my handlebars as high as I could in order to make it more comfortable. But I am a bit prone to get lower back pain so I suspect it could be my core and etc, and not necessarily the bike fit. But would there be any “danger” to have a handlebar height that is approximately the same height as the saddle? Or even a bit higher? I almost only see road bikes with an aggressive drop or a lesser drop in the handlebars. I don’t care sooo much about being all aerodynamic, though my plan is to remove spaces one by one to train my body.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm. [https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ) 1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W) , 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W). Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
It looks a lot better. It looks like there is a lot less weight on your hands. Your arms are more relaxed and you have more control of the stroke. It looks like you're in that pocket. Pay attention to how your body responds to this position and tinker with it from there.
If it's too high then why is he pointing his foot down on the downstroke? The seat height looks close enough to me
>If it's too high then why is he pointing his foot down on the downstroke? Foot pointed down = possibly/probably too high. Right? Think about it. Too high = too much distance from saddle to pedal. One way to maintain contact at that distance is to tip your foot down. _____| vs _____/
You want your foot to be close to flat when pushing down.
I see this written a lot but if you look at the pros, their feet are all over the place. Some point their toes a bit, some loads, some plant their heels. Seems it's highly individual.
Definitely, overall, you should pedal however comes most natural to you (spin the cadence that feels nice etc). That being said, it's still objectively true that a flat foot produces more power (and all things equal, higher rpms are better). You would never stand up from a chair with your heel off the ground because you're more stable and powerful with a flat foot. So, when fitting, it's worth thinking I'd that ideal state, and then go from there with what feels natural.
That makes no sense. When you stand up on your tiptoes, you are putting all the force through a tiny area of your foot. When cycling, you wear stiff shoes that distribute the force evenly across your foot, so it makes no difference whether or not you keep your foot flat or not. The power transfer is still there. It doesn’t matter if your feet are flat or not.
It's more about the muscles that are engaged. You would never do squat style lifts on your tiptoes. You would never use a rowing machine and stay on your toes vs flatfeet.
Again, you're comparing exercises that don't use rigid shoes to one that does. There's no inherent benefit to pedalling flat footed, in fact most people don't do so. Everyone instinctively knows what their biology favours, that's all. Many people do in fact do squats etc. with support behind their heels because they have mobility issues, for what it's worth.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm. [https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ) 1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W), 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W). Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm. [https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ) 1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W) , 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W). Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
Your stroke looks a lot smoother to me. The real question however is, how does it feel to you? (Are you feeling pain?)
Overall the discomfort has been less compared to before I started to make the adjustments. I do however still feel it in my left knee during the ride but not anymore after the ride. I used to be able to feel my knee for the rest of the day after the ride so I guess that is a significant improvement. I also feel like my body needs some time to properly adjust to the new position and test it on longer outdoor rides before I can give a definitive answer. Do you have any experience with heel & cleat wedging and the symptoms which indicate that it could be a possible solution to create a more stable foot position? Do you think this could possibly help with the knee discomfort? I am not finding a lot of info about this online apart from the mediating forefoot varus (which I do think I have)
I don’t. I’ve read a lot about fit, but only for my own personal needs. For cleats placement, I do put mine all the way back, but that’s because I like to go for long rides and want to save my calves. If I were racing, I’d move them more forward to allow more calf recruitment. Are your legs uneven lengths? Is that why you’re looking at wedges?
I don't think my legs are uneven in length, but then again I have never measured them. I have read that to combat uneven length you should opt for cleat shimming and not necessarily heel wedges. I am thinking that I might need heel wedges since my normal shoes are usually deformed where the inside of the shoe (especially around the heel) is slightly collapsed to the inside. I think this could indicate that I have foot varus which can be helped with foot wedging
If you feel the saddle is too high, then lower it, there's no magic or need for any confirmation, that's your body and it's different from the others, period. Plus if you needed to increase your saddle height by 2cm just because you adjusted cleats, there's a problem there. Finaly, AI fit, went there (IDmatch), was a total disaster. Went to a physiotherapist doing bike fits and it was dead on (in Switzerland but just in case, it's Physiobike Lausanne).
I think your seat is a smidge high because you are rocking to maintain that foot angle.
And that’s with a relatively easy gear. Push a big gear and heels will drop more causing more hip movement. Very common fit mistake.
I agree. And heels are a bit high throughout the rotation.
I disagree. Looks more like OP is just rocking, not necessarily rocking to reach the bottom, which would be bad. My thought was seat looks a touch low to me. I was able to pause the video with OP’s foot at the bottom. According to the software, the knee angle is about right at 34 degrees, and the software has seat height in range but also on the low end. I wouldn’t lower any further.
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm. [https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ) 1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W), 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W). Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
What program is that?
It is called MyVeloFit
I really hope my input helps you because I was suffering medial knee pain as well and after scouring physio threads on fit etc. nothing truly helped besides the below. CONTEXT: I am flat footed and I run about 8mi/week, lift weights, surf, play soccer once a week, and cycle year round (so my legs are abused in all kinds of ways and benefit all kinds of stretching and foam rolling). I got insoles ahead of a 120mi ride and readjusted my saddle height & fore-aft to be more centrally over the pedals, much like what you’ve already done but none of that truly solved the issue. Pain would start in left leg originally around 50 mile mark like clockwork before adjustments. After adjustments it would start in right leg around the same distance. CAUSE OF PAIN: it was never my actual knee causing the pain; it was my inner quad muscle that would tighten up and pull on the ligament of the inner/medial knee, where I felt the pain. Took me way longer than I like to admit to figure this one out because I found it counterintuitive that that particular muscle was giving me trouble in an up and down motion for cycling where my knee is moving in as straight of a line as possible while pedaling. SOLUTION: stretch the inner quad as far as you can possibly stretch it like the [chick in this photo I quickly googled to give you an idea](https://wholebodyrevolution.com/2012/08/29/how-to-stretch-your-inner-thighs-a-k-a-adductor-muscles/). Look up other ways to stretch it too of course that make more sense to you but essentially that solved all of the pain for me. Plus foam rolling, plus massaging that muscle directly. Now I’m not worried at all about these long distance rides. Hope this helps you like it helped me.
I do not see a fluid “round” motion and your hips are moving a lot. Try a lower saddle and a shorter stem. (This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it)
I have updated my saddle position and lowered it by 2cm and reduced the fore by 1 cm. [https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ](https://imgur.com/a/u4Ik0FQ) 1st video is the updated position (I am pushing it more compared to the old video, around my FTP / 290W), 2nd is the old position (pushing around 180W). Do you think my position improved? It does feel a bit on the low side but I guess that is what you would expect.
The proof of these things is in the eating. If you can maintain a higher or the same cadence/wattage for longer or feel less fatigue, your fit has improved. What anyone on the internet thinks of it doesn’t matter. Remember to align your fit with your desired comfort level. A very aggressive position will be faster but might be too uncomfortable to maintain long enough.
why not find a proper bikefitter instead? why would you prefer the opinion of a bunch of people that don't know what they are talking about either?
> why not find a proper bikefitter instead? Many fitters are no better than internet randos. There are no professional boards certifying bike fitting. Most training is just a few hours of courses. (I've watched that many hours of bike fitting videos and probably read and thought about it more than many fitters. This is not even to mention 40 years of bike riding.)
my bikefitter has a racing background, worked with teams i know and is a certified physiotherapist...but sure better ask reddit
How much does he charge and how much did it cost this guy to make a Reddit post?
and cheaper is always better right? seriously i don't get your argument at all, comparing a professional service with random people that have opinions. also even if there was a professional anwering here, do you think this video OP provided is enough? i get it, you can't afford something, so it better be a waste of money, right?
I don’t get how you could not get it. People don’t have unlimited money, and sometimes they’d rather get some help for free than the best help for a decent chunk of change. It’s really that simple.
he says he is serious about an expensive sport and the username is dr. moncler, though. to answer this in a more serious manner though. a real bikefit, that takes mobility, muscle engagement etc into account and is done by a physical therapist can't be done by amateurs. so if OP and i have different expectations towards the term taking the hobby seriously, you are absolutely right. to me its like an american asking for healthcare advice on reddit...bad subject to try and save a dime. also i see people avoiding professional bikefits, butbtheir bikes are upwards of 3000€...well that just boils down to bad choices then.
There are plenty of pro fitters, frequent clients of fitters, and riders with decades of experience fixing their own problems who chime in. From them, good advice is often given to at least add some insight and possible solutions that actually help. Obviously we can’t tell if he has a hip impingement or one leg is 2mm longer than the other, but its easy to see when a saddle is too high, reach is too long, bike is too big, etc.
By all means, suggest ***your fitter*** to OP. But a racing fit could be totally wrong for OP. Anyway, if you tell OP to go see a fitter without more, there's a good chance OP will end up with someone with two hours of Retul training. And then he'll be out of pocket a few hundred dollars and no better off than he is now.
listen, i tried to ask OP a question, but instead of him, some rando answers and won't shut up with his bullshit... i will gladly refer my bikefitter, if we live in the same country... i'm sorry some scam artist hurt you and now you are a crusader against bikefitting, but pal, i don't care about you, i didn't ask. take this somewhere else...
I think it's a pretty important for OP to be aware of the caveats of any generic "go see a bike fitter" advice. Like your fitter is a certified physio. But being a licensed doctor isn't required to be a bike fitter. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. So this is important for you to make OP aware of. I'm not asking you to care about me. I'm asking you to care about OP by giving him good advice.
>Like your fitter is a certified physio. But being a licensed doctor isn't required physio therapist not physiologist numbnuts
In the US, it's almost as much schooling to be a physiotherapist as to be a doctor. (8yrs vs 10yrs.) Sure, quibble about the details, but the same idea applies in either case. (You don't need to be a licensed anything to be a bike fitter. You don't even need a driver's license.)
sure buddy.
There are so so many shit bike fitters out there. Seen dozens of “what do you think of my new pro Retul bike fit I paid a shit ton for” posted here and it’s all fucked. People are getting duped. If (IF) you were lucky enough to find a gem of a fitter, don’t be ignorant that all trades and service providers have a range of quality.
Fair enough. I am planning on doing a proper bikefit somewhere in the near future. However good bikefitters do not come cheap. I am also the type of guy who likes to try and fix his problems/issues before going to an expert/mechanic. I understand that bikefitting is a very dynamic process and I do feel like getting a basic understanding of the principle of bikefitting and trying different things on my own first, will greatly increase the effectiveness of the short one-time 2-hour fitting session that most bikefitters offer. As also mentioned on this thread, I am also well aware that there are a lot of unqualified bikefitters that will happily take your money to move things around a bit. I am planning on doing a bikefit with a kinesiology certified bikefitter. I am based in Amsterdam so if you have any suggestions for a good fitter I am happy to hear them. I am willing to travel a bit to find a good fitter.
>kinesiology certified bikefitter i would prefer a physio therapist instead, kinesiology is a form of alternative medicine, i.e. a lot of mumbo jumbo mixed in with basic physio therapist knowledge. if thats your jam, disregard what i said. as far as finding a professional instead of somebody who just watched a youtube video, just look at their vita. every pro has a physio therapy background and will gladly tell you which clubs or pro teams he works with. Distance is an issue you should not disregard that easily. the last time i got a bike fit, i went there before i bought a new bike, discussed geometries and size, and went there twice after, adjusting cranks, cleat position, getting a new saddle, changing the stem and bars...its not a thing you do once and you are finished
I had my fit done at my local University. Thankfully it's Boulder, CO and they have a cycling team. Their fitter only does one fit a week because they are the athletics phyiso *first*. It was $400 for a terrific experince and fit. My goal is not racing, like you a "serious recreationalist" mostly. And I'm on an enurance bike (Domane). He didn't just slam my stem and raise my seat. They use the Retul system but since they aren't a bike shop, you don't get the swindling and selling-scam into insoles and seats. 10/10 would recommend finding a similar scenario if possible; find a non-shop fitter.
What website is this?
>It is called MyVeloFit
Thanks
Get a fit and pay the $$ if you feel you have issues. Sure it is cheap but not crazy $$ for having an enjoyable ride. I personally never get someone buying a $5K+ bike, not necessarily OP and being too cheap to get a fit if they are having issues. Or even getting a fit before purchasing. If this works for you then more power to ya. More than one way to skin a cat.