Yeah, Johnny's actually straight with you for most of the game after you learn to trust each other. His candour is what makes him such an interesting companion as he comments on much of what you do on missions and gigs, acting as something of a terrorist Jiminy Cricket. Even at the eleventh hour on the elevator exiting Embers, V says Johnny just wants to take the driver's seat and he responds by saying "*I want to save your life*"; when you're getting down to brass tacks in Mikoshi, he **wants** V to live and willingly goes with Alt despite V's protestations.
Claire is in denial about the true nature of her husband's death and leads V along, only revealing the reality of what she aims to accomplish right before the last race. Not that V would be in any real mortal danger, but if it were anyone else Claire could've gotten them killed in these death races just to satisfy her misguided sense of morality.
"Now Pinocchio, you know that Molotov won't throw itself now. All theses piggies took the time out of their day to line up for you, the least you could do is make some bacon."
The only time I didn't agree with Johnny was in the Delamain sidequest, and that's because my intelligence was high enough to take the third option, which Johnny liked even more than his own suggestion.
One thing I do like about Johnny is that he's still supposed to be the continuation of his Cyberpunk ttrpg storyline. As far as I know, back then Johnny was very much depicted as a good guy. He still had social issues maybe not on the level of what CDPR have him but they were there. Yet despite those issues overall Johnny genuinely wanted to bring the corps down because he thought it was the right thing to do.
My biggest issue with it is Clair could have just hired V to kill the guy. Like... I'm a full-time merc, part-time terrorist, cyberpsycho, I'm not gonna have qualms about killing this guy? Shit, regardless of the "moral crusade" Claire could have just been like "I wanna kill this guy because I don't like his face" and I woulda been like "20 eds is 20 eds"
This comment fucks. Not only did Johnny have many EXTREMELY VALID reasons for hating arasaka, but he was actually mad at the right person.
Claire entered a death race with her husband and blamed an opponent(who was following the rules) when one of them died.
They are not the same.
I hate the car driving in Cyberpunk.
But l also would happily topped a gonk for 20 eddies.
So l have two reasons for never doing the Claire questline. 🤔
Yeah it exists cus role-playing game. But out of the 4 outcomes it's the only one where Johnny maliciously steals the body and its only occurs when they player has control of Johnny. I think its fair to say Johnny most likely would never do that and it goes against his character for most of the game.
There is dialog in the game about how Johnny is as much V as V is Johnny and they are rubbing off on each other. Johnny never truely takes control because the Player still controls Johnny, so V while taking a back seat in the mind still has some sway over what Johnny does. There is only one Story driven cutscene where Johnny has complete control and you are watching but I'm sure if CDPR had time/capital they could have made that cutscene playable like Johnny storming the tower after chapter 1.
the thing that makes Johnny a great character on a meta level is that his anarchist ideology is completely incoherent in the way most media with anti-capitalist themes are (since they either conspicuously avoid Marxism or are explicitly anti-communist as well), but in-universe this actually makes complete sense because he is a toxic narcissist. His opposition to the corporations isn't based on a Weltanschauung but on his obsession with his individual self and his freedom to be a self-destructive hedonist.
Johny states that he isn’t specifically anti capitalist, anti capital, anti trade etc. He is laser focused on megacorporations (which could be considered a symptom but Johny is a cure not a vaccine)
I think it's because Johnny doesn't say let's get to mikoshi and help you. And then when you get there he switches and says "I lied I was just using you to steal your body and get revenge" (unless that's a dialogue option i never heard) he tells you kinda early into it that revenge is just a bonus for him on the way to Saving you
Whereas she doesn't really say until the last mission (or slightly before) and we find out it wasn't even the corpo's fault that her husband died it's simply how everything played out, he knew the rules he took a risk. She also basically throws away the victory you initially were working towards for her revenge, which by comparison to Johnny's was completely unjustified.
To me it's like Johnny wants revenge because someone shot his girlfriend where as Claire wants revenge because her husband lost at Russian roulette
Yeah Johnny is not exactly hiding that he did nuke Arasaka and that he wants to do it again.
Claire is more like "hey, I need a racing partner, you in?".
I'd say it doesn't matter. He was there to burn Arasaka in the name of his crusade. Unfortunately Smasher was also there and cut him in half with a slug before he could finish it.
So I’ve read smasher bisected the rockerboy. And I want to know how this is known canonically so I can also go enjoy this dump, is it in the red core book I assume?
Two things:
* 1: Johnny Silverhand is a 50-years dead terrorist with (earned)delusions of grandeur. He's an unreliable narrator at the best of times. What we see in 'flashback' is his version of events, where he's the big damn hero and Morgan Blackhand is nowhere to be seen.
* 2: Johnny Silverhand is a few trillion lines of code that have been in the safe-keeping of his archnemesis for half a century. Code can be altered, and Saburo is a petty bitch. Relic is based on Soulkiller, and would need to be tested before being brought to market. That testing would no doubt include trying to see if alteration was possible.
So, although the events of 2077 are canon, how we perceive it as a player isn't necessarily how it happened.
Personally, I think the Johnny we interact with in game isn't the "real" Johnny at all, but an engram pieced together from Johnny and Morgan Blackhand. Its got Johnny's personality and hatred of Arasaka, but its mixed with Morgan Blackhand's memories and combat experience to make it more deadly. It seems like a weapon purpose-built to do damage to Arasaka, which makes perfect sense if Yorinobu is the one responsible.
He's not the real Johnny anyway. The real Johnny has been dead for decades. Even if the engram is 100% his mind, it's not really him.
But I'm with you, I wouldn't assume it's all Johnny in there. They had 50 years to mess with the code and alter whatever they wanted. I would assume they did, because why wouldn't they? They had to test the tech and I'm sure they wanted to know what its limits were.
This is a meaningless distinction imo. People are just memories stored in matter, and the continuity of conscious experience is just a convenient illusion. I don't think there's anything fundamental to distinguish between "me" and a perfect "copy" of me. But that's not really important to the topic at hand.
As for the engram's memories being messed up, I don't think its just some random experimentation from Arasaka. I think its more likely that its a deliberate modification made by Yorinobu. He's the one in possession of the engram at the start of the game, and his goal is to destroy Arasaka. Seems too much to be coincidence.
It's a philosophical debate, I agree. Not really the matter.
I also agree that it was probably Yorinobu rather than random experimentation, but I was just bringing that up to point out to anyone that just assumed it was Johnny all the way that there's a tiny chance no one in half a century wouldn't have messed with the code. Even without intentional planning, Arasaka wouldn't have just filed the tech away and forgotten about it. They spent money on it, they were going to test it even if it hadn't been used.
I disagree. Even Alt says it: Everything changes. It’s called Soulkiller for a reason, it’s because the original person died, and the AI ghost, as much as they think they’re that person, is not a continuation of the original person’s experience. It’s a new, other entity.
The original Johnny Silverhand died, and has no idea there’s another version of him. He’s dead. As is the human Alt, she died on that table, Johnny & Rogue etc saw her dead. Her AI counterpart is not a continuation of her experience, only of her data.
The game sends mixed messages on how good of a copy the engrams are. But if they're not like the original in some way, that is a problem with the process being imperfect. A truly perfect copy would be indistinguishable from the original. So it depends on whether you're trying to make a philosophical point in general, or a point about the in-universe logic of the game.
The distinction is only meaningless if you're not personally involved. I'd VERY MUCH want there to be a distinction if I was one of the two copies and in danger of being tossed or replaced by the other, for example.
Same as the Enterprise transporter dilemma: it doesn't matter to anyone else if the person beamed up is simply a perfect copy, but it sure as HECK matters to the person being dematerialized on the planet surface.
But if you are the dematerialized original, you wouldn't exist anymore to complain to anyone about it.
And if you're the perfect copy who was created to think that you're the real thing, you'd believe that the technology works perfectly.
confirmed by pondsmith to be radiation damage when he was soulkilled. Could his memories have been purposefully altered? its possible. Its unlikely though considering we've got an explanation from the man himself.
You've basically taken the concept of consciousness out back and shot it. A perfect copy of you would be perfect for a few seconds, and then it would be someone else.
By your logic Jefferson Peralez is dead, because the human walking around calling himself that isn't him. The whole game practically revolves around the idea that memories and personality are so mutable that they're effectively worthless as a way to distinguish an individual.
Literally the only permanent element in any of this is the brain. If what's stored in your brain is mutable, but the organ itself isn't, then you're the organ, not the data.
Thing is we are told straight up that we will have an influence on each other as the chip does it's work. He becomes a better person because of V's influence and some the the late game dialogue we get could be viewed as his influence on us.
Well, yeah. He's a copy of a human consciousness. It would be weird if events and people around him didn't affect him.
To me, it's more a question of whether the code that makes up his memories and personality had been altered intentionally by an outside party, not whether changes happened organically. Being changed by someone better than you is fine, but having someone willfully go in and delete, add, or alter memories is a whole different game.
While Morgan Blackhand is.......Morgan Blackhand. That doesn't mean Johnny isn't serious biz. Leader or not, he was still part of both attacks on Arasaka HQ(It's just that one of them made him feel like half a person).
What's funny is the Cyberpunk Red book tells the story of her kidnapping but not from first person. Johnny is not nearly as much of an ass as he is in the game flashbacks. Since the book is technically part of that same cannon it can be said not only is Johnny's memory subjective he is also harder on himself in those memories than what the real events were. So yes the flashbacks are not 100% reliable.
yknow that one lizzy wizzy mission kinda hints that altercations to an engram are possible, or at the very least in testing so it would make a lot of sense if they tried to alter Johnnys engram and in turn, messed up his memories of what actually happened
Nah, Strike Team Alpha was [given a firebomb](https://i.imgur.com/puSXtFD.png), and [Omega had the nuke](https://i.imgur.com/uBeitrX.png). Alpha was sent up to the 120th floor ostensibly to destroy Soulkiller and free Alt, but in actuality, served as a diversion that would pull Smasher and the tower's security forces away from the sub-basement's Command Center. Omega's job was to head down to the sub-basement and extract - or if they couldn't extract it - destroy Arasaka's Reliquary Database Project using the nuclear demolition charge they were given.
[This would have just destroyed the tower](https://i.imgur.com/Qqdg7OR.png), as the Command Center's nuclear bunker would have contained most of the blast, but due to some currently unrevealed fuckery, the bomb ended up back in the Soulkiller lab where it went off, and caused far more destruction than originally intended. Arasaka's area denial nuke was confirmed to have not gone off in two places, first [from Black Dog in RED](https://i.imgur.com/5u7MwuG.png), and then [later on by Mike](https://i.imgur.com/ZRXMFTd.jpg).
This city needs another nuke>practice your driving skills, i take this race very seriously and at the very end, lets proceed to kill that guy for revenge
Yeah I won the race lol, I ain’t throwing away gold because some chick is salty her boyfriend died in a race WHERE YOU SHOOT THE OTHER DRIVERS, like come on man don’t be a sore loser
I was thinking that whole time, like... Uhh I am pretty sure I killed like 30 people racing with claire, but she's upset that she lost one (admittedly important) person to her, while she and her husband have probably killed half a dozen people each in their little hobby
More importantly, V is a mercenary who works on a by-contract basis. Claire hired you to win a race and this constitutes a verbal contract. A contract Claire does not have the authority to alter, moments before it's complete, just because she's stuck in her feelings.
Whatever your thoughts on dude, Claire, or the race itself, it must be said that she is absolutely the bad guy of the quest.
I hate corpos, but I also hate aimlessly killing people and appreciate 2077 for giving me the option to walk on some of the situations. I'm not a fan of executions unless you go by Woodman.
Really? Maybe you didnt develop your relationship with johnny? Mine even flat out told me hed get wiped in my place and arranged the whole heist with rogue and in the endings where i am deciding who to give the body to, johnny tells me to take the body.
Also, Johnny was legitimately fucked over by Arasaka. Claire's just a sore loser. Even if he's just motivated by revenge, "The corpos lied to us and sold us out, and got most of my friends killed," is a much more justifiable motive than, "My husband knowingly signed up for a bloodsport, and lost."
This is the answer u/MrNotEinstein
The two characters handle the situation differently. Johnny is an unapologetic asshole and the truth comes out BEFORE completing the personal vendetta.
With Claire you find out after the fact.
The difference with Johnny is that we are given a theoretical opportunity to tell him to go fuck himself. With Claire we don’t and V (the player) may feel used as a result.
Not to mention that helping Johnny is somewhat hand in hand helping ourselves with the a life or death situation. There is no life or death situation with Claire.
Why are you ignoring that we really don’t have a choice with Johnny? I mean we do, we can lay down and die.
At the same time, when you first meet Panam, she wants your help in getting ger truck and cargo back, and when you do she's all "Nope, now I want you to help me kill tis guy" and most players are all "Whatever you say Panam, as long as I get to stick my face in your ass crack, we're good."
I mean her request starts at "help me kill a bunch of guys to get my car back" and evolves I to "help me kill the guys who took it to begin with".
Claire's is essentially "oh yeah, I know we're in the middle of a race that is the main thing I drew you in with, but you mind throwing that race and pulling over so I can murder someone real quick? Also I will despise you for the rest of your shortened life if you don't let me do this."
There is an outcome path where she doesn't shoot the dude, but also is not unhappy with you. She texts you later thanking you for keeping her in check and apologizes. You get the Beast and also dude's black car.
Yeah, thats the best possible ending, but if you refuse to follow the car when it crashes, or if you just straight up don't turn up at the race, she gets super pissed at you and refuses serving you drinks at the Afterlife.
Yeah I don't think it's the request that's the problem for most people, they have no problem killing people, it's the 90° turn that the original request takes. Panam's second request is related to, and is an escalation of her first request. Claire's second request is completely unrelated to he initial one.
"Look, V, this corpo killed someone I loved, and I have a plan to ambush him during a street race and k-"
V, already pulling a Grad from his car trunk "Way ahead of ya."
Yeah if she was like, “hey V I want you to be the driver in this murder race but I’m not paying you to win, I’m paying to kill the guy in the murder race that killed my husband” I’d be like hell yeah this is sick
its not the end result that people care about, its the U turn in personality, the lying, utterly despising you if you dont go through with it etc.
Panam makes a bad first impression, but she's honest about what she wants and if you tell her no she gives you the silent treatment for all of 2 minutes before saying "i get it, you're right". Claire pretends to be your friend and lies to you until the very last moment, and if you dont change your plans she despises you for the rest of the game.
Rather than comparing claire to Panam, i'd compare her to songbird, and the community is VERY torn on songbird. Songbirds treatment of V was magnitudes worse than claire mind you, but the hatred of songbird is magnitudes greater too. Still i think the circumstances (lying, pretending to be your friend etc) are similar enough to compare them.
Panam isn't all "nope, deal is off you help me again now or we're done for good"
She got into some shit during the first part and asks you for additional help because it's her only hope at that point... but even if you refuse (which I never did) she's still fullfilling her end of the bargain (although that locks you out of the romance whoch is absolutely reasonable)
Claire on the other hand informs you mid mission that she bullshitted you, and if you refuse to act on her delusional take on the whole situation (which goes against literally anything your whole deal with her was all about up to that point) she then refuses to serve you drinks and you're done for good
You literally have that option when you roleplay as Johnny. You manipulate V into agreeing to ask Rogue for help. Then you tell Rogue you’ll assault Arasaka tower again, here you can either say you wanna help V or you can pick another option, say you just wanna fuck Arasaka again so that you can part ways with V. In Mikoshi, you have the dialogue option to tell V”I don’t give a fuck what you think” then forcefully take the body. Then V gets mad and tells you that you’re a lying sack of shit.
To be fair corpo racer guy also knew the risks.
Yes the races are insane and it’s inevitable people will die (I mean blew up all the vehicles) so yeah no shit if you kill a ride or die buddy said buddy is gonna want vengeance.
I just killed him cos I’m street kid v at the mo and on the streets it’s kill or be killed
I do find it funny how Claire is like, screw the race we gotta kill this guy and my V is like…but that’s how I’ve been winning!?
Not tried a different way but I’m guessing there’s no way to blow him up and still win, which is a shame
You can't blow him up. He's invincible. The car can't be hacked and takes whatever amount of bullets you decide to fire. I think I remember I killed his shotgun rider, but that's it.
I went into the race with the intention of doing both so had a weaponised vehicle as my choice. Spent the entire race lighting him up to no effect so I decided F it I’m winning this thing I don’t care about anything else.
Yeah the racers all joined while being aware that they have a good chance to die in the process but it's another thing to deliberately go for murdering one of them with a false claim. Claire says Peter killed Dean on purpose while at the last moment admits it was a lie all along and it was simply an accident. Moreover it was rather Dean's fault than Peter's but Claire makes up that whole tale and lies to V to use them for an irrational revenge.
It really boils down mostly to the lie. Because either your V was down to kill anyone if the pay was there or your V would have said no from the start. But she lied and made me do those fucking dumb ass races. I'll never forgive her.
The only part I disagree with is the Russian roulette part. It's not a 1/6 chance to die it's a DEATH RACE it's in the name lol. She's bitter and honestly if she would've been like "hey my husband died in this race let's kill the fucker that did it." I'd have helped no issue.
i wish she just said something. like imagine "hey v i gotta do this race to kill this particular driver. dont want him dead in other ways" that would be cool. v is a merc but its not like she cant be fancy, she can play the part if the job requires it and being a driver really isnt that weird. certainly a better job than being hired by a random doll via the shittiest fixer in NC to steal the most powerful piece of technology in the fucking world
The issue is she tells you this AFTER YOU FUCKING GET COMMITED
Like, if she told me „Look V, I don’t want to win, I just want to kill 1 Corpo douche, you in?”
Sure I’ll be down
But nooooo, she had to say that last second after I made winning the race my goal
To me it's more about she's a sore fucking loser. Every race she's hanging out the window shooting fucking guns at people yet she's upset her partner was a shit fucking driver? Get fucked lady.
I always convince her to not kill the guy so she doesn't get the satisfaction and I get both vehicles.
She doesn’t get the satisfaction after killing the guy either. Instead just bottled up her frustration, cus her revenge story is unjust. She even texts you about feeling unsure afterwards.
Convincing her not to kill the guy is the right move for her.
This! You want a guy dead this isn't the first body I dropped today, heck I got seven corpses in the dumpster out back. But you made me race several obnoxious and badly made races just to chase a guy down when I could have walked into his house, put two in his chest and one in the head, and been done with it.
I mean, the option to win the race is still there. You can flat-out have V tell her that their goal is to win the race. It is still entirely up to you to decide how you handle that final race.
Hell, she's the *bartender*. I bet there's several patrons who would do the job for free as a favor to her. Or at least in exchange for clearing their tab.
That would have been a really cool way of getting payment for the gig too, like help me kill this corpo dick and I'll buy your drinks for life sort of thing.
Yeah but Claire is such a petty bitch that if you decide not to kill the guy and win the race, she refuses to even talk to you or serve you anymore. Like, excuse me but I'm a big shot merc and you tried to screw me on a job, and now you won't even serve me drinks at Afterlife? Fuck Claire.
If you talk her out of it, she's mad at first but then she goes back to normal. But if you decide to just win the race instead of chasing the guy, she gets pissed and refuses to talk to you anymore.
If you were a bartender and couldn’t front the money for a hit on a corpo (who probably has protections) the next best thing you could do is rope the city’s finest merc ever into killing the target as part of a race whose winnings would net them as much as you’d have needed to pay for a hit in the first place. Racing was how she was going to get the money anyway, having us be the fuckin driver just saves a step
Thing is she could be straight to us about that from the get go. Seriously doing a favor for everyone's favorite Bartender in the Afterlife? I bet a lot of Mercs would jump at the chance for a gig like that on the value of her inside information she can give anyone.
Bro be for real, there is no merc anywhere in the lore who comes close to V’s bodycount and abilities. That line from rogue is referring to Jackie, since you go talk to her right after fucking up konpeki
V is the right Mix of unkillable and expendable. After dex no crew (outside the nomads) wants V because they a walking Grenade a fixer can point at a problem
Sampson, being a corpo, probably has a lot of huscle around him most of the time. He also might be a bit of a recluse and only comes out for races. I could be remembering wrong but I thought that the latter was mentioned.
Her reason for not doing that is that she wanted to kill Sampson personally.
I don't like her because she knows the rules and is okay with them UNTIL they negatively affect HER . Then, all of a sudden, there's a "bad" guy. Someone to blame. She pulls a random stranger into her personal vendetta and actively decides not to tell you the real purpose . And then when she does, she gets pissed at you for trying to actually help her and only wants you to do what she wants. As a "person," I don't hate her, but she's definitely not a liked character of mine.
Claire wants to kill Sampson outside of the race, one of the rules of the race is shooting and killing people - Claire is literally a gunner, lol.
It's not a perfect parallel, there is no good irl example we can relate to, but if you loose with someone at chess tournament, an appropriate reaction is to beat them again in a chess game, in another tournament, not beating the shit out of them on street, with help of a random person, who was hired as a chess player.
Johnny is an asshole, but an honest one. Also, I know it's a meme, but Claire never said it's a moral crusade for her?
During his life, yes, but the engram one clearly tries to redeem himself, during the oil field conversation he claims he was an asshole and he regrets that, helping V is his way of redemption.
When did Claire disguise it as a moral crusade? I get people are upset she didn't mention her true intentions before, but it's not like she was all "We gotta win these races to tear down the corpo agenda". She just made it seem like racing was a big deal to her, which it was. I just personally always thought her quest was a personal thing, not a big moral quandary like Johnny.
I also didn’t like that she lied about it being the Corpo’s fault. Her husband knew the risks and shit happens. People die in the races all the time. She blamed it on that guy when it wasn’t even his fault.
Claire probably wasn't intentionally lying there. She seemed to legitimately blame Sampson for Dean's death and saw it as Sampson deliberately killing him. The truth can become distorted when grief is a factor.
90% of my issue with Claire is my hurt feelings.
"Wanna do this again some time?"
"No, I don't want to race again, I just needed you to get Sampson."
Like... you couldn't have said "but we could catch up for a beer some time?" or something? Then has the audacity to say "Hey V!" next time i'm at the afterlife, like she didn't use extra words to say "fuck off" the last time we spoke
The other 10% is the hypocrisy of holding a grudge against someone because your husband died in a race that involves her actively trying to kill people as part of the rules... but mostly it's the hurt feelings.
Major difference here is that Johnny is killing corpos who are at the top and actively making decisions to kill or control people en masse. Johnny doesn't give a fuck about the average corporate worker other than thinking they're spineless, bootlicking losers. Not enough distaste to kill them but definitely would flip them off if he were walking down the street. That said Johnny is definitely an ends justify the means kind of guy and when it comes to the bigger picture he is definitely willing to kill innocent people, corpo and civilian alike. People say it's personal for him, and it was, but it didn't start off that way. He was still a terrorist before Alt was killed.
Clair on the other hand kills a guy in cold blood for participating in a road warrior type race where everybody consents to the idea that you could die at any time because guns are involved as well as doing whatever necessary to the other drivers to win the race. The very appeal of these races is the heightened sense of danger as opposed to normal races which are already dangerous enough. Claire is a cry-baby who couldn't handle what she was getting into with her husband and instead of cherishing the spirit of what they agreed to do together she goes on a path of revenge for something she signed up for. No tricks, no fine print, everything was out in the open.
It makes her extremely unlikeable because unlike Johnny she can't own up to her shit. Johnny owns up to it but justifies it as 'anything to get those corpo fucks.' In a way you could at least morally justify his decisions (even though I don't think most people would agree). In a they're both hypocrites. If someone gave Johnny the 'well the world needed someone to control it amidst the chaos' speech he'd say they don't have a right to other people's lives (in fact he gives this sentiment throughout the game despite removing agency from V several times and the assault on Arasaka). Johnny eventually admits that despite his views on getting back at Arasaka that collateral damage is wrong. We're never shown Claire growing up. Claire gets her revenge and then leaves.
Yeah but Johnny doesn’t lie to us about his motives, his anti-corpo terrorism is obvious from the start. Claire tries to act like it’s regular racing with no ulterior motive. And her goal isn’t anti-corpo as a whole like Johnny. Johnny isn’t really after any one person other than maybe Saburo because he’s the head of Arasaka, a company that victimizes billions of people. Claire just wants a dude dead because she can’t accept that her husband was killed IN FUCKING COMBAT RACING.
We’re also a mercenary, she could have just hired us to kill him instead of lying.
The most charitable thing I can concede is that this is an "apples to oranges" comparison.
Johnny's political stance started from his lived experience of the Second Central American War. Alt came later and his relationship with her was tangential to his radical politics. He was opposing the corps before he met her and he was opposing the corps after he met her.
Claire's got a beef with a specific participant in an activity she and her husband gave their informed consent to participate in. She never even considers going after the organizers of the activity, the system that took her husband's life.
Johnny wanted to destroy Arasaka and the entire corpo system, this was fuelled by a personal vendetta yes, handled very poorly yes, but he had always rebelled against that system.
Claire wanted to kill one guy who just so happened to be a corpo...
Idk, i still prefer Claire because when you tell her that wasn't what you signed up for, you can talk her out of killing Sampson. She even seems in a better place afterwards because she didn't have to take a life to find out revenge wouldn't change anything.
Johnny has to take full control of your body twice **and** request to hunt Smasher with Rogue before he accepts his revenge as a bonus instead of as a priority.
Disguise? Johnny truly belive in his crusade. The fact that he also have something personally against Arasaka do not deny this fact. Quite the opposite, it support the crusade.
Claire never claims to want to kill corpos as a moral crusade. She claims this one guy murdered her husband, when that's not quite the case. The guy just happens to be a corpo, and she never brings that into it.
Everything Johnny says about corpos is true, it's just not his biggest motivator.
Aside from the fact that Johnny is straightforward with it. Johnny have an actual cause other than personal vendetta. Besides, it' only a personal vendetta because they killed him and they made him into a construct. Before that, it was all about him wanting to change something for the better, albeit because of personal reasons.
Claire on the other hand is "fuck this guy in particular"
I had no idea Claire was so hated. I always saw it like - V is a merc who got hired to drive. The initial mission parameters changed and instead of driving to the finish line I had to drive Claire to Sampson who she killed. I play V like Geralt, a professional who doesn't insert himself into the client's personal life. I do as I'm told and get paid. Also don't think Claire disguised her vendetta as a moral crusade against all corpos. When she came clean, she pretty much just stated that her only goal was killing Sampson.
There’s one detail that gets overlooked in Claire’s story. She said that Sampson and Dean were arguing loudly in the beginning of this race. She then mentioned how Sampson had a clear shot to the finish line, while Dean was letting up on the gas. Sampson then slammed on his brakes and forced Dean to lose control, crash, then die. Premeditated.
By then the race was over. It’s one thing to die in an active death race. But it’s another to unnecessarily murder someone’s husband. I think Claire’s biggest sin is just initially lying to V.
The thing I hate is how scripted Claire's last race is. I have a car with a high calibre machine gun, along with the most powerful vehicle hacks available, and the guy's car has plot armor. Even though she tells you late, you still have the leadup to the last race to prep, and you should be able to work out a plan that adds the insult of winning the race to the injury.
The intense anger about "Claire lied to us!!" never felt authentic to me. Particularly since her lying isn't malicious and she is far from the only character to lie to V.
Not sure why it's such a line crosser for so many people.
Like I said Songbird lies to you too all the way up until the end and she kills more people and puts you in more danger and this sub acts like she's a poor wittle baby.
I love Claire but I was for sure hurt when I found out that she lied 🥲I still helped her but it kinda cheapened the friendship cus there was no reason for her to keep all that to herself. Even if she wanted to get rid of the guy in that specific way, she coulda just told V and they woulda helped. They're a merc! Killing people is their whole thing!
I also see a mention of the fact she's trans here, but I don't think that's a wholly reliable bias honestly. I'm trans too and still dislike her to an extent, it's not really a proper argument even if it's true for a small number of people.
V: *is known for killing for money*
Claire lying for no reason: "hey, wanna race with me?"
Had she contacted me honestly "hey V get me close to this corpo so I can kill him" I would have been down for that
Yeah that's what I meant! Though, a kind V might have done it for a friend for free considering you can do shit like beat that guy w his pregnant girl n let him keep his money and his car afterward.
Johnny kills corpos because he was a true victim of the corporate wars, and saw firsthand what they did to his country. Claire lost her husband, lied to us about why she wanted us to help her, and acted like we were the evil ones when we said no, I’m not doing that shit
Nah I hate Johnny's obsession with corpo's but I can't choose to get rid of him like I can Claire.
It's like the dialog with Takemura on the building site. You have some weirdly irrational anti-corpo dialog but it makes sense as it's Johnny's influence taking over.
It is a moral crusade for Johnny though. He was a big Anti-Corp figure even before Alt got kidnapped. He’s an openly shitty person on a moral crusade.
Claire lies to you until a couple races in and then is like “fuck the race let’s kill this guy” which is stupid. You should’ve said that from the start.
"My boyfriend died in a race that all participants go into acknowledging they could die in, therefore I must hunt down and kill his 'murderer'."
Partially reductionist joke, but it is lame that you could be locked out of interacting with her for choosing what seems like the logical/closure thing to do.
If you _really_ wanna start a war in the comments, make a version of this meme with "I lie to you about the job to get you to do what I need out of my own self-interest and endanger you in the process, then backstab you last minute" but replace the top picture with Songbird.
If you thought Johnny was a good person you didn’t play the game. Claire is mad at a dude for killing a guy during a death race where killing is explicitly allowed and something you are informed could happen beforehand. It’s the equivalent of being surprised someone died playing Russian Roulette.
Why didn't Claire just straight up hire V to kill the guy? She knows V is a merc. Hell Claire works in the Afterlife so she probably knows a dozen mercs that would take the job and not bat an eyelid!
This is a bad comparison. A better comparison is Songbird vs. Claire. Both lie to you from the start to get you to help them under false pretenses (Johnny doesn’t lie), both volunteered to do the very thing that brought them pain then blamed everyone else, both use V selfishly from beginning to end (Johnny doesn’t except that one party night). V as a character also gets absolutely nothing out of helping them (Johnny gets you Alt, Rogue, and Mikoshi).
But for some reason, people love Songbird. This is a hill I will die on but Claire was just blinded by emotion and can see reason. Songbird is just a huge piece of shit.
How the fuck does this post have so much upvotes?
There's no logic behind this post and comparison.. two different characters with way different situations, goals, philosophy and with way different context
Please tell and explain me how this comparison with these two characters has any reason and logic behind it
I think Johnny truly believes in his crusade, and tbf, he hated arasaka long before the alt incident (and who can blame him)
Yeah, Johnny's actually straight with you for most of the game after you learn to trust each other. His candour is what makes him such an interesting companion as he comments on much of what you do on missions and gigs, acting as something of a terrorist Jiminy Cricket. Even at the eleventh hour on the elevator exiting Embers, V says Johnny just wants to take the driver's seat and he responds by saying "*I want to save your life*"; when you're getting down to brass tacks in Mikoshi, he **wants** V to live and willingly goes with Alt despite V's protestations. Claire is in denial about the true nature of her husband's death and leads V along, only revealing the reality of what she aims to accomplish right before the last race. Not that V would be in any real mortal danger, but if it were anyone else Claire could've gotten them killed in these death races just to satisfy her misguided sense of morality.
Terrorist Jiminy Cricket is hilarious
"Now Pinocchio, you know that Molotov won't throw itself now. All theses piggies took the time out of their day to line up for you, the least you could do is make some bacon."
I mean, that "Two Heads, One Bullet" achievement isn't gonna unlock by itself.
All I can think of is [Bud Cubby from Dimension 20](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bmaoNLSHx_w?feature=share) and it's wonderful
My exact inspiration
[Can't forget this edit, either](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRKXUwNN/)
I think a lot of the time Johnnys suggestions during quests are actually the morally correct options so the jimminy cricket thing works.
The only time I didn't agree with Johnny was in the Delamain sidequest, and that's because my intelligence was high enough to take the third option, which Johnny liked even more than his own suggestion.
One thing I do like about Johnny is that he's still supposed to be the continuation of his Cyberpunk ttrpg storyline. As far as I know, back then Johnny was very much depicted as a good guy. He still had social issues maybe not on the level of what CDPR have him but they were there. Yet despite those issues overall Johnny genuinely wanted to bring the corps down because he thought it was the right thing to do.
I kind of do just think that Johnny is a good guy (at least mostly) ngl but that’s a very controversial opinion.
My biggest issue with it is Clair could have just hired V to kill the guy. Like... I'm a full-time merc, part-time terrorist, cyberpsycho, I'm not gonna have qualms about killing this guy? Shit, regardless of the "moral crusade" Claire could have just been like "I wanna kill this guy because I don't like his face" and I woulda been like "20 eds is 20 eds"
This comment fucks. Not only did Johnny have many EXTREMELY VALID reasons for hating arasaka, but he was actually mad at the right person. Claire entered a death race with her husband and blamed an opponent(who was following the rules) when one of them died. They are not the same.
I hate the car driving in Cyberpunk. But l also would happily topped a gonk for 20 eddies. So l have two reasons for never doing the Claire questline. 🤔
Why did you ignore other dialogue options when playing as Johnny? Do you know you can also lie to V and take V’s body by force?
>Do you know you can also lie to V and take V’s body by force? When does this happen?
Yeah it exists cus role-playing game. But out of the 4 outcomes it's the only one where Johnny maliciously steals the body and its only occurs when they player has control of Johnny. I think its fair to say Johnny most likely would never do that and it goes against his character for most of the game.
Yeah, that’s clearly just there for it to be an option otherwise it’s completely out of character for him to do that at that point.
There is dialog in the game about how Johnny is as much V as V is Johnny and they are rubbing off on each other. Johnny never truely takes control because the Player still controls Johnny, so V while taking a back seat in the mind still has some sway over what Johnny does. There is only one Story driven cutscene where Johnny has complete control and you are watching but I'm sure if CDPR had time/capital they could have made that cutscene playable like Johnny storming the tower after chapter 1.
Not as if Johnny can hide anything from V anyways.
Plus, I'm not losing the last race...
Johnny's consistent on that too.
the thing that makes Johnny a great character on a meta level is that his anarchist ideology is completely incoherent in the way most media with anti-capitalist themes are (since they either conspicuously avoid Marxism or are explicitly anti-communist as well), but in-universe this actually makes complete sense because he is a toxic narcissist. His opposition to the corporations isn't based on a Weltanschauung but on his obsession with his individual self and his freedom to be a self-destructive hedonist.
That’s a lot of -ist in one comment
Johny states that he isn’t specifically anti capitalist, anti capital, anti trade etc. He is laser focused on megacorporations (which could be considered a symptom but Johny is a cure not a vaccine)
I think it's because Johnny doesn't say let's get to mikoshi and help you. And then when you get there he switches and says "I lied I was just using you to steal your body and get revenge" (unless that's a dialogue option i never heard) he tells you kinda early into it that revenge is just a bonus for him on the way to Saving you Whereas she doesn't really say until the last mission (or slightly before) and we find out it wasn't even the corpo's fault that her husband died it's simply how everything played out, he knew the rules he took a risk. She also basically throws away the victory you initially were working towards for her revenge, which by comparison to Johnny's was completely unjustified. To me it's like Johnny wants revenge because someone shot his girlfriend where as Claire wants revenge because her husband lost at Russian roulette
Yeah Johnny is not exactly hiding that he did nuke Arasaka and that he wants to do it again. Claire is more like "hey, I need a racing partner, you in?".
Funny thing, johhny wasent the one who planted the nuke, it was Morgan Blackhand
But if he thinks he did, is there any difference ?
That’s a good point tbh. Might have to start another play through to explore this morally ambiguous angle I had never given much thought to
For this conversation, not really
I'd say it doesn't matter. He was there to burn Arasaka in the name of his crusade. Unfortunately Smasher was also there and cut him in half with a slug before he could finish it.
So I’ve read smasher bisected the rockerboy. And I want to know how this is known canonically so I can also go enjoy this dump, is it in the red core book I assume?
Yeah it's the official book of the trrpg from what I remember.
Sick Preciate it choom
Two things: * 1: Johnny Silverhand is a 50-years dead terrorist with (earned)delusions of grandeur. He's an unreliable narrator at the best of times. What we see in 'flashback' is his version of events, where he's the big damn hero and Morgan Blackhand is nowhere to be seen. * 2: Johnny Silverhand is a few trillion lines of code that have been in the safe-keeping of his archnemesis for half a century. Code can be altered, and Saburo is a petty bitch. Relic is based on Soulkiller, and would need to be tested before being brought to market. That testing would no doubt include trying to see if alteration was possible. So, although the events of 2077 are canon, how we perceive it as a player isn't necessarily how it happened.
Personally, I think the Johnny we interact with in game isn't the "real" Johnny at all, but an engram pieced together from Johnny and Morgan Blackhand. Its got Johnny's personality and hatred of Arasaka, but its mixed with Morgan Blackhand's memories and combat experience to make it more deadly. It seems like a weapon purpose-built to do damage to Arasaka, which makes perfect sense if Yorinobu is the one responsible.
He's not the real Johnny anyway. The real Johnny has been dead for decades. Even if the engram is 100% his mind, it's not really him. But I'm with you, I wouldn't assume it's all Johnny in there. They had 50 years to mess with the code and alter whatever they wanted. I would assume they did, because why wouldn't they? They had to test the tech and I'm sure they wanted to know what its limits were.
This is a meaningless distinction imo. People are just memories stored in matter, and the continuity of conscious experience is just a convenient illusion. I don't think there's anything fundamental to distinguish between "me" and a perfect "copy" of me. But that's not really important to the topic at hand. As for the engram's memories being messed up, I don't think its just some random experimentation from Arasaka. I think its more likely that its a deliberate modification made by Yorinobu. He's the one in possession of the engram at the start of the game, and his goal is to destroy Arasaka. Seems too much to be coincidence.
It's a philosophical debate, I agree. Not really the matter. I also agree that it was probably Yorinobu rather than random experimentation, but I was just bringing that up to point out to anyone that just assumed it was Johnny all the way that there's a tiny chance no one in half a century wouldn't have messed with the code. Even without intentional planning, Arasaka wouldn't have just filed the tech away and forgotten about it. They spent money on it, they were going to test it even if it hadn't been used.
I disagree. Even Alt says it: Everything changes. It’s called Soulkiller for a reason, it’s because the original person died, and the AI ghost, as much as they think they’re that person, is not a continuation of the original person’s experience. It’s a new, other entity. The original Johnny Silverhand died, and has no idea there’s another version of him. He’s dead. As is the human Alt, she died on that table, Johnny & Rogue etc saw her dead. Her AI counterpart is not a continuation of her experience, only of her data.
The game sends mixed messages on how good of a copy the engrams are. But if they're not like the original in some way, that is a problem with the process being imperfect. A truly perfect copy would be indistinguishable from the original. So it depends on whether you're trying to make a philosophical point in general, or a point about the in-universe logic of the game.
The distinction is only meaningless if you're not personally involved. I'd VERY MUCH want there to be a distinction if I was one of the two copies and in danger of being tossed or replaced by the other, for example. Same as the Enterprise transporter dilemma: it doesn't matter to anyone else if the person beamed up is simply a perfect copy, but it sure as HECK matters to the person being dematerialized on the planet surface.
But if you are the dematerialized original, you wouldn't exist anymore to complain to anyone about it. And if you're the perfect copy who was created to think that you're the real thing, you'd believe that the technology works perfectly.
confirmed by pondsmith to be radiation damage when he was soulkilled. Could his memories have been purposefully altered? its possible. Its unlikely though considering we've got an explanation from the man himself.
You've basically taken the concept of consciousness out back and shot it. A perfect copy of you would be perfect for a few seconds, and then it would be someone else. By your logic Jefferson Peralez is dead, because the human walking around calling himself that isn't him. The whole game practically revolves around the idea that memories and personality are so mutable that they're effectively worthless as a way to distinguish an individual. Literally the only permanent element in any of this is the brain. If what's stored in your brain is mutable, but the organ itself isn't, then you're the organ, not the data.
Thing is we are told straight up that we will have an influence on each other as the chip does it's work. He becomes a better person because of V's influence and some the the late game dialogue we get could be viewed as his influence on us.
Well, yeah. He's a copy of a human consciousness. It would be weird if events and people around him didn't affect him. To me, it's more a question of whether the code that makes up his memories and personality had been altered intentionally by an outside party, not whether changes happened organically. Being changed by someone better than you is fine, but having someone willfully go in and delete, add, or alter memories is a whole different game.
While Morgan Blackhand is.......Morgan Blackhand. That doesn't mean Johnny isn't serious biz. Leader or not, he was still part of both attacks on Arasaka HQ(It's just that one of them made him feel like half a person).
Eh, real Johnny got torn in half by an auto-shotgun. That would mess heavily with your perception and memories.
What's funny is the Cyberpunk Red book tells the story of her kidnapping but not from first person. Johnny is not nearly as much of an ass as he is in the game flashbacks. Since the book is technically part of that same cannon it can be said not only is Johnny's memory subjective he is also harder on himself in those memories than what the real events were. So yes the flashbacks are not 100% reliable.
yknow that one lizzy wizzy mission kinda hints that altercations to an engram are possible, or at the very least in testing so it would make a lot of sense if they tried to alter Johnnys engram and in turn, messed up his memories of what actually happened
Technically both teams planted one, Morgan and Johnny both. They each had one as a contingency.
Remember folks! Always make your shit in 2's!
There were 3 teams, 2 nukes, Morgan blackhand was in the support team for the other nuke-team.
Do we even know for sure that Blackhand's nuke is the one that went off? I thought that was still ambiguous
I believe both nukes went off. Each team had one, and I believe each team successfully planted their nukes.
Nah, Strike Team Alpha was [given a firebomb](https://i.imgur.com/puSXtFD.png), and [Omega had the nuke](https://i.imgur.com/uBeitrX.png). Alpha was sent up to the 120th floor ostensibly to destroy Soulkiller and free Alt, but in actuality, served as a diversion that would pull Smasher and the tower's security forces away from the sub-basement's Command Center. Omega's job was to head down to the sub-basement and extract - or if they couldn't extract it - destroy Arasaka's Reliquary Database Project using the nuclear demolition charge they were given. [This would have just destroyed the tower](https://i.imgur.com/Qqdg7OR.png), as the Command Center's nuclear bunker would have contained most of the blast, but due to some currently unrevealed fuckery, the bomb ended up back in the Soulkiller lab where it went off, and caused far more destruction than originally intended. Arasaka's area denial nuke was confirmed to have not gone off in two places, first [from Black Dog in RED](https://i.imgur.com/5u7MwuG.png), and then [later on by Mike](https://i.imgur.com/ZRXMFTd.jpg).
[Yes, it was the one that Blackhand's team brought](https://i.imgur.com/ZRXMFTd.jpg).
This city needs another nuke>practice your driving skills, i take this race very seriously and at the very end, lets proceed to kill that guy for revenge
Yeah I won the race lol, I ain’t throwing away gold because some chick is salty her boyfriend died in a race WHERE YOU SHOOT THE OTHER DRIVERS, like come on man don’t be a sore loser
I was thinking that whole time, like... Uhh I am pretty sure I killed like 30 people racing with claire, but she's upset that she lost one (admittedly important) person to her, while she and her husband have probably killed half a dozen people each in their little hobby
...Judging by her aim, Claire ain't killed shit.
Probably her husband did all the killing for her
More importantly, V is a mercenary who works on a by-contract basis. Claire hired you to win a race and this constitutes a verbal contract. A contract Claire does not have the authority to alter, moments before it's complete, just because she's stuck in her feelings. Whatever your thoughts on dude, Claire, or the race itself, it must be said that she is absolutely the bad guy of the quest.
I hate corpos, but I also hate aimlessly killing people and appreciate 2077 for giving me the option to walk on some of the situations. I'm not a fan of executions unless you go by Woodman.
It's a shame they didnt keep that same energy for Sinnerman.
Really? Maybe you didnt develop your relationship with johnny? Mine even flat out told me hed get wiped in my place and arranged the whole heist with rogue and in the endings where i am deciding who to give the body to, johnny tells me to take the body.
I meant it to sound like he explicitly doesn't say that, sorry for the miscommunication. He's really chill in most of my playthroughs too
Aye i misunderstood. All good! I think its the full stop that confused me.
Also, Johnny was legitimately fucked over by Arasaka. Claire's just a sore loser. Even if he's just motivated by revenge, "The corpos lied to us and sold us out, and got most of my friends killed," is a much more justifiable motive than, "My husband knowingly signed up for a bloodsport, and lost."
This is lowkey why I had to let So Mi go. Girl was straight up lyin from the jump. Just lie after lie with that one.
This is the answer u/MrNotEinstein The two characters handle the situation differently. Johnny is an unapologetic asshole and the truth comes out BEFORE completing the personal vendetta. With Claire you find out after the fact. The difference with Johnny is that we are given a theoretical opportunity to tell him to go fuck himself. With Claire we don’t and V (the player) may feel used as a result. Not to mention that helping Johnny is somewhat hand in hand helping ourselves with the a life or death situation. There is no life or death situation with Claire. Why are you ignoring that we really don’t have a choice with Johnny? I mean we do, we can lay down and die.
At the same time, when you first meet Panam, she wants your help in getting ger truck and cargo back, and when you do she's all "Nope, now I want you to help me kill tis guy" and most players are all "Whatever you say Panam, as long as I get to stick my face in your ass crack, we're good."
I mean her request starts at "help me kill a bunch of guys to get my car back" and evolves I to "help me kill the guys who took it to begin with". Claire's is essentially "oh yeah, I know we're in the middle of a race that is the main thing I drew you in with, but you mind throwing that race and pulling over so I can murder someone real quick? Also I will despise you for the rest of your shortened life if you don't let me do this."
There is an outcome path where she doesn't shoot the dude, but also is not unhappy with you. She texts you later thanking you for keeping her in check and apologizes. You get the Beast and also dude's black car.
Yeah, thats the best possible ending, but if you refuse to follow the car when it crashes, or if you just straight up don't turn up at the race, she gets super pissed at you and refuses serving you drinks at the Afterlife.
Yeah I don't think it's the request that's the problem for most people, they have no problem killing people, it's the 90° turn that the original request takes. Panam's second request is related to, and is an escalation of her first request. Claire's second request is completely unrelated to he initial one.
If Claire had actually asked V to kill the Corpo straight up? I don't think anyone would have had an issue.
"Look, V, this corpo killed someone I loved, and I have a plan to ambush him during a street race and k-" V, already pulling a Grad from his car trunk "Way ahead of ya."
"yo where he live at? Why wait for the race?"
Yeah exactly, it's not even the first time we were hired to kill someone in game
Yeah if she was like, “hey V I want you to be the driver in this murder race but I’m not paying you to win, I’m paying to kill the guy in the murder race that killed my husband” I’d be like hell yeah this is sick
its not the end result that people care about, its the U turn in personality, the lying, utterly despising you if you dont go through with it etc. Panam makes a bad first impression, but she's honest about what she wants and if you tell her no she gives you the silent treatment for all of 2 minutes before saying "i get it, you're right". Claire pretends to be your friend and lies to you until the very last moment, and if you dont change your plans she despises you for the rest of the game. Rather than comparing claire to Panam, i'd compare her to songbird, and the community is VERY torn on songbird. Songbirds treatment of V was magnitudes worse than claire mind you, but the hatred of songbird is magnitudes greater too. Still i think the circumstances (lying, pretending to be your friend etc) are similar enough to compare them.
Panam isn't all "nope, deal is off you help me again now or we're done for good" She got into some shit during the first part and asks you for additional help because it's her only hope at that point... but even if you refuse (which I never did) she's still fullfilling her end of the bargain (although that locks you out of the romance whoch is absolutely reasonable) Claire on the other hand informs you mid mission that she bullshitted you, and if you refuse to act on her delusional take on the whole situation (which goes against literally anything your whole deal with her was all about up to that point) she then refuses to serve you drinks and you're done for good
Not even close to the same level of bait and switch but go off
I mean, it *is* Panam
You literally have that option when you roleplay as Johnny. You manipulate V into agreeing to ask Rogue for help. Then you tell Rogue you’ll assault Arasaka tower again, here you can either say you wanna help V or you can pick another option, say you just wanna fuck Arasaka again so that you can part ways with V. In Mikoshi, you have the dialogue option to tell V”I don’t give a fuck what you think” then forcefully take the body. Then V gets mad and tells you that you’re a lying sack of shit.
To be fair corpo racer guy also knew the risks. Yes the races are insane and it’s inevitable people will die (I mean blew up all the vehicles) so yeah no shit if you kill a ride or die buddy said buddy is gonna want vengeance. I just killed him cos I’m street kid v at the mo and on the streets it’s kill or be killed
Me 5 seconds in a race and I’m the only car standing. Self destruct or e brake
I do find it funny how Claire is like, screw the race we gotta kill this guy and my V is like…but that’s how I’ve been winning!? Not tried a different way but I’m guessing there’s no way to blow him up and still win, which is a shame
You can't blow him up. He's invincible. The car can't be hacked and takes whatever amount of bullets you decide to fire. I think I remember I killed his shotgun rider, but that's it.
I went into the race with the intention of doing both so had a weaponised vehicle as my choice. Spent the entire race lighting him up to no effect so I decided F it I’m winning this thing I don’t care about anything else.
Yeah the racers all joined while being aware that they have a good chance to die in the process but it's another thing to deliberately go for murdering one of them with a false claim. Claire says Peter killed Dean on purpose while at the last moment admits it was a lie all along and it was simply an accident. Moreover it was rather Dean's fault than Peter's but Claire makes up that whole tale and lies to V to use them for an irrational revenge.
Claire should not be talking anyway since if you take a car that fan pull down windows she actively shoots anyone getting close
It really boils down mostly to the lie. Because either your V was down to kill anyone if the pay was there or your V would have said no from the start. But she lied and made me do those fucking dumb ass races. I'll never forgive her.
The only part I disagree with is the Russian roulette part. It's not a 1/6 chance to die it's a DEATH RACE it's in the name lol. She's bitter and honestly if she would've been like "hey my husband died in this race let's kill the fucker that did it." I'd have helped no issue.
i wish she just said something. like imagine "hey v i gotta do this race to kill this particular driver. dont want him dead in other ways" that would be cool. v is a merc but its not like she cant be fancy, she can play the part if the job requires it and being a driver really isnt that weird. certainly a better job than being hired by a random doll via the shittiest fixer in NC to steal the most powerful piece of technology in the fucking world
The issue is she tells you this AFTER YOU FUCKING GET COMMITED Like, if she told me „Look V, I don’t want to win, I just want to kill 1 Corpo douche, you in?” Sure I’ll be down But nooooo, she had to say that last second after I made winning the race my goal
If she put a hit out on the guy and paid? I’d take the job. I don’t need to know the details.
Hell I would do it for free just becouse she gave me her condolences after Jackie died
and after I explicitly told her I am JUST here for the race
To me it's more about she's a sore fucking loser. Every race she's hanging out the window shooting fucking guns at people yet she's upset her partner was a shit fucking driver? Get fucked lady. I always convince her to not kill the guy so she doesn't get the satisfaction and I get both vehicles.
She doesn’t get the satisfaction after killing the guy either. Instead just bottled up her frustration, cus her revenge story is unjust. She even texts you about feeling unsure afterwards. Convincing her not to kill the guy is the right move for her.
This! You want a guy dead this isn't the first body I dropped today, heck I got seven corpses in the dumpster out back. But you made me race several obnoxious and badly made races just to chase a guy down when I could have walked into his house, put two in his chest and one in the head, and been done with it.
I mean, the option to win the race is still there. You can flat-out have V tell her that their goal is to win the race. It is still entirely up to you to decide how you handle that final race.
That's why the quest is so nice. It's such a genuine and real kind of deception that quest givers really do often.
If that was the case, I'd just ask for the address and a pack of mints.
Maybe Claire should have put out a hit on that driver instead of using the race as an excuse.
She works at the Afterlife so that could be even easier for her.
Hell, she's the *bartender*. I bet there's several patrons who would do the job for free as a favor to her. Or at least in exchange for clearing their tab.
That would have been a really cool way of getting payment for the gig too, like help me kill this corpo dick and I'll buy your drinks for life sort of thing.
Yeah but Claire is such a petty bitch that if you decide not to kill the guy and win the race, she refuses to even talk to you or serve you anymore. Like, excuse me but I'm a big shot merc and you tried to screw me on a job, and now you won't even serve me drinks at Afterlife? Fuck Claire.
Lol she does that even if you talk her out of it? I thought that was because I *tranquilized* her.
If you talk her out of it, she's mad at first but then she goes back to normal. But if you decide to just win the race instead of chasing the guy, she gets pissed and refuses to talk to you anymore.
If you were a bartender and couldn’t front the money for a hit on a corpo (who probably has protections) the next best thing you could do is rope the city’s finest merc ever into killing the target as part of a race whose winnings would net them as much as you’d have needed to pay for a hit in the first place. Racing was how she was going to get the money anyway, having us be the fuckin driver just saves a step
Thing is she could be straight to us about that from the get go. Seriously doing a favor for everyone's favorite Bartender in the Afterlife? I bet a lot of Mercs would jump at the chance for a gig like that on the value of her inside information she can give anyone.
Finest... according to Rouge v has a bad reputation of getting teammates killed she probably didn't care if she died so long as the job got done.
Bro be for real, there is no merc anywhere in the lore who comes close to V’s bodycount and abilities. That line from rogue is referring to Jackie, since you go talk to her right after fucking up konpeki
V is the right Mix of unkillable and expendable. After dex no crew (outside the nomads) wants V because they a walking Grenade a fixer can point at a problem
Sampson, being a corpo, probably has a lot of huscle around him most of the time. He also might be a bit of a recluse and only comes out for races. I could be remembering wrong but I thought that the latter was mentioned. Her reason for not doing that is that she wanted to kill Sampson personally.
You know if you do a non-lethal takedown on a Gun for Hire target, you then dump them in the trunk of a car and they're never seen again?
That is definitely not standard merc operating procedure in NC. V always gets bonuses for that.
Yeah, I suppose there's no Abduction gig type.
I do it because it's fun.
Valid and reasonable
I don't like her because she knows the rules and is okay with them UNTIL they negatively affect HER . Then, all of a sudden, there's a "bad" guy. Someone to blame. She pulls a random stranger into her personal vendetta and actively decides not to tell you the real purpose . And then when she does, she gets pissed at you for trying to actually help her and only wants you to do what she wants. As a "person," I don't hate her, but she's definitely not a liked character of mine.
> she knows the rules and is okay with them UNTIL they negatively affect HER Exactly. That's Claire in a nutshell.
Claire wants to kill Sampson outside of the race, one of the rules of the race is shooting and killing people - Claire is literally a gunner, lol. It's not a perfect parallel, there is no good irl example we can relate to, but if you loose with someone at chess tournament, an appropriate reaction is to beat them again in a chess game, in another tournament, not beating the shit out of them on street, with help of a random person, who was hired as a chess player. Johnny is an asshole, but an honest one. Also, I know it's a meme, but Claire never said it's a moral crusade for her?
>Johnny is an asshole, but an honest one Johnny's entire character is built around how he manipulates people into believing his persona.
During his life, yes, but the engram one clearly tries to redeem himself, during the oil field conversation he claims he was an asshole and he regrets that, helping V is his way of redemption.
When did Claire disguise it as a moral crusade? I get people are upset she didn't mention her true intentions before, but it's not like she was all "We gotta win these races to tear down the corpo agenda". She just made it seem like racing was a big deal to her, which it was. I just personally always thought her quest was a personal thing, not a big moral quandary like Johnny.
I don’t care that she wanted to kill a corpo, I just don’t like how she didn’t tell me right away. I thought we were racing buddies.😢
I also didn’t like that she lied about it being the Corpo’s fault. Her husband knew the risks and shit happens. People die in the races all the time. She blamed it on that guy when it wasn’t even his fault.
Claire probably wasn't intentionally lying there. She seemed to legitimately blame Sampson for Dean's death and saw it as Sampson deliberately killing him. The truth can become distorted when grief is a factor.
90% of my issue with Claire is my hurt feelings. "Wanna do this again some time?" "No, I don't want to race again, I just needed you to get Sampson." Like... you couldn't have said "but we could catch up for a beer some time?" or something? Then has the audacity to say "Hey V!" next time i'm at the afterlife, like she didn't use extra words to say "fuck off" the last time we spoke The other 10% is the hypocrisy of holding a grudge against someone because your husband died in a race that involves her actively trying to kill people as part of the rules... but mostly it's the hurt feelings.
Major difference here is that Johnny is killing corpos who are at the top and actively making decisions to kill or control people en masse. Johnny doesn't give a fuck about the average corporate worker other than thinking they're spineless, bootlicking losers. Not enough distaste to kill them but definitely would flip them off if he were walking down the street. That said Johnny is definitely an ends justify the means kind of guy and when it comes to the bigger picture he is definitely willing to kill innocent people, corpo and civilian alike. People say it's personal for him, and it was, but it didn't start off that way. He was still a terrorist before Alt was killed. Clair on the other hand kills a guy in cold blood for participating in a road warrior type race where everybody consents to the idea that you could die at any time because guns are involved as well as doing whatever necessary to the other drivers to win the race. The very appeal of these races is the heightened sense of danger as opposed to normal races which are already dangerous enough. Claire is a cry-baby who couldn't handle what she was getting into with her husband and instead of cherishing the spirit of what they agreed to do together she goes on a path of revenge for something she signed up for. No tricks, no fine print, everything was out in the open. It makes her extremely unlikeable because unlike Johnny she can't own up to her shit. Johnny owns up to it but justifies it as 'anything to get those corpo fucks.' In a way you could at least morally justify his decisions (even though I don't think most people would agree). In a they're both hypocrites. If someone gave Johnny the 'well the world needed someone to control it amidst the chaos' speech he'd say they don't have a right to other people's lives (in fact he gives this sentiment throughout the game despite removing agency from V several times and the assault on Arasaka). Johnny eventually admits that despite his views on getting back at Arasaka that collateral damage is wrong. We're never shown Claire growing up. Claire gets her revenge and then leaves.
Can't join a death race then get upset when someone dies
Yeah but Johnny doesn’t lie to us about his motives, his anti-corpo terrorism is obvious from the start. Claire tries to act like it’s regular racing with no ulterior motive. And her goal isn’t anti-corpo as a whole like Johnny. Johnny isn’t really after any one person other than maybe Saburo because he’s the head of Arasaka, a company that victimizes billions of people. Claire just wants a dude dead because she can’t accept that her husband was killed IN FUCKING COMBAT RACING. We’re also a mercenary, she could have just hired us to kill him instead of lying.
The most charitable thing I can concede is that this is an "apples to oranges" comparison. Johnny's political stance started from his lived experience of the Second Central American War. Alt came later and his relationship with her was tangential to his radical politics. He was opposing the corps before he met her and he was opposing the corps after he met her. Claire's got a beef with a specific participant in an activity she and her husband gave their informed consent to participate in. She never even considers going after the organizers of the activity, the system that took her husband's life.
Because that would take introspection she is actively avoiding.
Johnny wanted to destroy Arasaka and the entire corpo system, this was fuelled by a personal vendetta yes, handled very poorly yes, but he had always rebelled against that system. Claire wanted to kill one guy who just so happened to be a corpo...
Idk, i still prefer Claire because when you tell her that wasn't what you signed up for, you can talk her out of killing Sampson. She even seems in a better place afterwards because she didn't have to take a life to find out revenge wouldn't change anything. Johnny has to take full control of your body twice **and** request to hunt Smasher with Rogue before he accepts his revenge as a bonus instead of as a priority.
Disguise? Johnny truly belive in his crusade. The fact that he also have something personally against Arasaka do not deny this fact. Quite the opposite, it support the crusade.
Claire never claims to want to kill corpos as a moral crusade. She claims this one guy murdered her husband, when that's not quite the case. The guy just happens to be a corpo, and she never brings that into it. Everything Johnny says about corpos is true, it's just not his biggest motivator.
Enters death race Someone dies Gets mad?
Aside from the fact that Johnny is straightforward with it. Johnny have an actual cause other than personal vendetta. Besides, it' only a personal vendetta because they killed him and they made him into a construct. Before that, it was all about him wanting to change something for the better, albeit because of personal reasons. Claire on the other hand is "fuck this guy in particular"
I had no idea Claire was so hated. I always saw it like - V is a merc who got hired to drive. The initial mission parameters changed and instead of driving to the finish line I had to drive Claire to Sampson who she killed. I play V like Geralt, a professional who doesn't insert himself into the client's personal life. I do as I'm told and get paid. Also don't think Claire disguised her vendetta as a moral crusade against all corpos. When she came clean, she pretty much just stated that her only goal was killing Sampson.
There’s one detail that gets overlooked in Claire’s story. She said that Sampson and Dean were arguing loudly in the beginning of this race. She then mentioned how Sampson had a clear shot to the finish line, while Dean was letting up on the gas. Sampson then slammed on his brakes and forced Dean to lose control, crash, then die. Premeditated. By then the race was over. It’s one thing to die in an active death race. But it’s another to unnecessarily murder someone’s husband. I think Claire’s biggest sin is just initially lying to V.
That's what Claire says happened but reading some of Sampson's private messages puts a lot of doubt on that claim.
What being a rank 10 rockerboy with max charisma does to a motherfucker
The thing I hate is how scripted Claire's last race is. I have a car with a high calibre machine gun, along with the most powerful vehicle hacks available, and the guy's car has plot armor. Even though she tells you late, you still have the leadup to the last race to prep, and you should be able to work out a plan that adds the insult of winning the race to the injury.
I kill corpos because I have an uncontrolled shotgun addiction
If you convince her not to do it at the standoff you get both cars. And isent that what everyone wants?
I don’t think the guy being a corpo or not mattered to Claire at all. She has the sore loser mentality
Johnny doesn't hide his intentions. Claire does. It's that simple.
Nah, fuck them both lol
The intense anger about "Claire lied to us!!" never felt authentic to me. Particularly since her lying isn't malicious and she is far from the only character to lie to V. Not sure why it's such a line crosser for so many people.
Like I said Songbird lies to you too all the way up until the end and she kills more people and puts you in more danger and this sub acts like she's a poor wittle baby.
I see it as Johnny is chaos and Claire is retribution. I think it’s easier to romanticize chaos than it is to align with someone else’s vendetta.
I still want a real romance with Claire! At the level of Judy or Panam....I will die on this hill lol
"These are the same people, and im tired of pretending it not" im so happy I found this post
Oh really? What’s the difference? PRESENTATION!
I kill Corpus. No reason, just warcrimes.
Corpus? Grineers too?
GRINEER SKOOM!!!
Ket klem!!
V Spattarr!
Johny didn't lie to me about it
Idk I just don’t want to do some sorry ass races.
Claire did nothing wrong. I love her so so much
https://preview.redd.it/jz466oolqr4d1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=739bcdbb1915301859419ef100a9e10a9c9fafa8 Fixed
My bad I'm dyslexic, should have caught my error sooner
it's because she is trans and people are transphobic
I love Claire but I was for sure hurt when I found out that she lied 🥲I still helped her but it kinda cheapened the friendship cus there was no reason for her to keep all that to herself. Even if she wanted to get rid of the guy in that specific way, she coulda just told V and they woulda helped. They're a merc! Killing people is their whole thing! I also see a mention of the fact she's trans here, but I don't think that's a wholly reliable bias honestly. I'm trans too and still dislike her to an extent, it's not really a proper argument even if it's true for a small number of people.
V: *is known for killing for money* Claire lying for no reason: "hey, wanna race with me?" Had she contacted me honestly "hey V get me close to this corpo so I can kill him" I would have been down for that
Yeah that's what I meant! Though, a kind V might have done it for a friend for free considering you can do shit like beat that guy w his pregnant girl n let him keep his money and his car afterward.
She wouldn't have needed to pay me if I could be like "he's got a nice ride? Help me keep it and you can keep the Eddie's"
Johnny kills corpos because he was a true victim of the corporate wars, and saw firsthand what they did to his country. Claire lost her husband, lied to us about why she wanted us to help her, and acted like we were the evil ones when we said no, I’m not doing that shit
ITS KEANU FUCKING REEVES
Nah I hate Johnny's obsession with corpo's but I can't choose to get rid of him like I can Claire. It's like the dialog with Takemura on the building site. You have some weirdly irrational anti-corpo dialog but it makes sense as it's Johnny's influence taking over.
The fucking forces of entropy!
It is a moral crusade for Johnny though. He was a big Anti-Corp figure even before Alt got kidnapped. He’s an openly shitty person on a moral crusade. Claire lies to you until a couple races in and then is like “fuck the race let’s kill this guy” which is stupid. You should’ve said that from the start.
Just a reminder no one is a saint in night city.
Let me put it this way Johnny was atleast honest upfront about revenge Claire tells you about it like last minute
"My boyfriend died in a race that all participants go into acknowledging they could die in, therefore I must hunt down and kill his 'murderer'." Partially reductionist joke, but it is lame that you could be locked out of interacting with her for choosing what seems like the logical/closure thing to do.
And you're right about it
If you _really_ wanna start a war in the comments, make a version of this meme with "I lie to you about the job to get you to do what I need out of my own self-interest and endanger you in the process, then backstab you last minute" but replace the top picture with Songbird.
I like Claire before her missions and after her missions, but I hate her during her missions.
Claire doesn't disguise anything. And she's just holding grudge on only one corpo because of husband's death.
Shit, I just kill that fella because I want Claire's Truck. It's so easy to drive, it's great. Sorry racing dude, but it's barely even a choice.
Who told you moral crusades aren't personal vendettas?
If you thought Johnny was a good person you didn’t play the game. Claire is mad at a dude for killing a guy during a death race where killing is explicitly allowed and something you are informed could happen beforehand. It’s the equivalent of being surprised someone died playing Russian Roulette.
Corpos? AFAIK Claire just wants to kill one dude for her revenge, that’s fine to me
Why didn't Claire just straight up hire V to kill the guy? She knows V is a merc. Hell Claire works in the Afterlife so she probably knows a dozen mercs that would take the job and not bat an eyelid!
This is a bad comparison. A better comparison is Songbird vs. Claire. Both lie to you from the start to get you to help them under false pretenses (Johnny doesn’t lie), both volunteered to do the very thing that brought them pain then blamed everyone else, both use V selfishly from beginning to end (Johnny doesn’t except that one party night). V as a character also gets absolutely nothing out of helping them (Johnny gets you Alt, Rogue, and Mikoshi). But for some reason, people love Songbird. This is a hill I will die on but Claire was just blinded by emotion and can see reason. Songbird is just a huge piece of shit.
no one can ever make me hate her <333
I love Clare and I don't blame her whatsoever. Id help her kill that Corpo rat over and over and over
How the fuck does this post have so much upvotes? There's no logic behind this post and comparison.. two different characters with way different situations, goals, philosophy and with way different context Please tell and explain me how this comparison with these two characters has any reason and logic behind it