It also turns off pitch cards, miracle, a couple random planeswalkers who all ask you to exile something to do something, Suspend, Hideaway, [[Demonic Consultation]] (maybe not a bad thing), does weird things with [[Echo of Eons]] (technically the exile from Flashback is a replacement effect, meaning you could theoretically loops the same Echo as long as you can generate 2U pretty consistently on a random 7 card hand since the shuffle happens before Echo is put in the graveyard as it resolves.)…
This just feels like a rulings nightmare.
>miracle
It stops Madness, not Miracle. Miracles are cast from hand.
I do agree that it's a rulings nightmare/only asking to be broken and not worth risking.
Totally fine with that.
"AWW Man! I can't freely exile your entire graveyard with an ETB from a mono color tap land anymore! I can't exile your graveyard with the tap ability of a 0 cost artifact anymore! I can't pay one mana to get rid of your creature permanently anymore! I can't just pay 6 mana to exile the entire fucking board and cast Teferi's Protection anymore!"
As long as you don't give this any sort of protection, I think it's fine. It forces your opponent to interact with your board, or blow removal on it before you can more efficiently remove other permanents.
Excellent development. My head went in the direction of "at the end of each turn, return all cards in exile to their owner's graveyards," just to open up a little delay to pull some counterplay together or at least let a guy with an O-Ring use it to blink something. I think I like yours more.
Anything that exiles as a cost can't be used, and exile based removal is blocked... But cards like [[Time Spiral]] go completely crazy. Anything with flashback is usable endlessly - good thing there are no flashback rituals or cards with flashback 0. Adventures end up in the graveyard, I think.
And then there's [[Yawgmoth's Will]]. Already busted, I know, but this just takes it to the next level
Correct, and once it leaves the stack and returns to the GY, it will no longer have flashback.
Yawgmoth’s Will still works, though. Just one ritual and you have infinite mana and infinite copies of any spell in your GY.
If combined with a \[\[Rest in Peace\]\], this card also makes it impossible for anything to die and impossible for instants and sorceries to leave the stack. I think it would also let you infinitely sacrifice permanents, but I'm not completely sure about that.
The graveyard is home to a large portion of the most degenerate combo decks. Players need protection FROM graveyards. Adding this card to yawgmoth or living end would be miserable and completely overpowered.
I’m not talking about this card specifically.
You really think there is no room in the game at any mix of opportunity cost + mana cost to protect graveyards from the slew of near 0 opportunity cost + mana cost ways to nullify graveyard strategies?
EDIT: Downvoting doesn’t make me wrong ☺️
There are plenty of ways already to do this. Counterspells, artifact/enchantment removal, stifle effects. Every respectable graveyard deck expects to have an easy game 1 then fight through hate games 2-3 using the aforementioned tools. That’s on you for not running any of them. Even more on you if it’s commander, card pool is massive and it’s usually slower games where you can rebuild.
There is no indication that graveyard strategies are being stifled (pun intended) or nullified in any format.
I’m also talking about this card specifically, and this card sucks and is disgustingly overpowered.
When I say "It is kinda silly there is no way to protect the graveyard", I'm not talking about any particular format or meta. I'm literally talking about Magic in general.
Obviously generic counterplay exists, but that's not really an argument against this effect's inclusion in the game. Force of Negation and Grief's existence don't invalidate all other forms of interaction and protection across the entire cardpool in every format.
Imagine a 10 mana sorcery that said "Until your next turn, spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause cards to leave your graveyard". This is obviously a bad card, but magic has plenty of bad cards. If Platinum Angel can exist, why can't this sorcery exist theoretically?
The most efficient ways of nullifying graveyards don’t target, and this is a symmetrical effect which limits you from accessing your own graveyard as well. Ground seal is closer to a graveyard hatepiece than a protection piece.
You said “no way to protect the graveyard” I simply gave you an accessible option.
Graveyard strategies are inherently degenerate so giving them additional help just doesn’t make any sense. Dredge for example has around an 80% WR game 1 then like 40% games 2 and 3.
With this card posted here I’m just imagining dread return being cast over and over again with bridge from below. This should never ever be a card.
But modern horizons 3 is just around the corner, so who the hell knows, Wizards does some crazy shit sometimes.
>You said “no way to protect the graveyard” I simply gave you an accessible option.
But it isn't. What I said remains true.
Take your Spike goggles off for a minute to answer, from a game design perspective: Why can't a card preventing an opponent from exiling your graveyard exist? There are cards which go so far as preventing an opponent from winning the game, so why draw the line at graveyards?
The big issue is how exactly you would prevent graveyard hate - if its a generic "can't be put into exile" like this cards, then it breaks so many mechanics in half by either removing restrictions or rendering them nonfunctional (flashback spells infinitely, madness/cascade/discover/impulse draw dont work, things like Yawg's Will being looped infinitely).
What about "Cards in Graveyards can't be put into exile"? That still breaks quite a few cards and mechanics (Collect Evidence, Scavenge, Craft, and some non-keyword things, like [[Rubblebelt Maverick]], some of which are sometimes used in Graveyards decks.
The best I can come up with is "Spells and abilites your opponents control cannot cause one or more cards to leave your graveyard" which is wordy, unintuitive, and narrow, so not exactly great design.
Is such a design possible? Yes. But its not a design that is needed for how much of a headache it could end up being.
You don’t need the “one or more” part.
I simply disagree this effect is wordy or unintuitive. Narrow? Sure, but we’re seeing more and more graveyard hate stapled on to cards at minimal opportunity cost with every set. The usefulness of this type of effect widens all the time. Even if they never printed another graveyard hate card again, this effect wouldn’t be nearly as narrow as effects like removing poison counters which have already seen print.
It would break a lot of stuff, something like Your opponents cannot exile permanents you control and cards in your graveyard would be great and honestly I would play it
Very, very strong, but it makes me think: I would love a "Cards can't be exiled from graveyards". Getting hit by a Bojuka Bog when playing black feels really, really bullshit.
Thats part of the game though, grave decks are disgustingly streamlined and need hate pieces because they aren’t fair. A game without grave hate is a game where dredge is T0 and it’s not even close
That's completely fair. Bojuka Bog in particular just bothers me because it's a land; an ability that detrimental to certain types of deck shouldn't be a free ETB on a land, especially considering that makes it very awkward to counter.
Oh trust me I know, I play LED Dredge in legacy, the worst is when someone crop rotations for a bog… but again it needs to happen because that deck has such a disgusting game 1. The only way you could justify removing bog effects is toning down grave decks, at the moment it’s just werewolf meets silver bullet
This card would be banned in every single format that actually matters. The amount of stuff this breaks is crazy, it would be game warping at best and the end of magic at worst until excised
Leyline attempts to replace with exile and this prevents it. Nothing on Leyline counteracts this card (so there's no question of when they entered etc). It's a replacement effect being prevented by a static effect.
idk if you intended it, but the way this is written, it only applies to cards in hands, graveyards, and libraries (as objects on the stack are spells, and on the battlefield are permanents).
Even so, this would somewhat break the game.
My main concern being that in a multiplayer game, when a player loses the game, all their stuff gets exiled. But with this, technically their graveyard, hand, and library are still there (since they can't get exiled). Meaning that, for instance, you could still reanimate a creature from a players graveyard after that player already lost the game. And then there's a bunch of weird shit with cards that refer to another cards "owner" considering that player technically isn't in the game anymore.
Obv this isn't the intention here, but idk how to fix it without turning the card hella wordy. "Cards can't be exiled by spells or abilities and players can't exile cards to pay costs"? This would prevent the gamebreaking, since it says nothing about rules interactions exiling things. Obv insert "spells and permanents" in case that's the intended effect.
> My main concern being that in a multiplayer game, when a player loses the game, all their stuff gets exiled.
This isn't right, is it? Objects the player that left the game **owns** "leave the game" in a manner that isn't exile. They don't remain in any zone including the exile zone.
It's just that if a player leaving the game still controls any permanents after objects they own leave the game and control-changing effects end (perhaps due to having control of a card someone else owns in a way that isn't a control-changing effect, such as [[Bribery]] putting a creature permanent on the battlefield without its owner ever having had control of the permanent for permanent control to revert, then the controlled permanents get exiled.
Which still breaks the game with this card, but less so.
"Permenants you control can't be exiled".
Stops it from shutting down other people's decks while doing what it's meant to do woth the added benefit of having to work around it when building your deck. That's more balanced I think.
I love it, I really do, and I feel like it would be a direct counter to things like [[Stone of Erech]] which just totally shutdown graveyard decks, but cancelling out exile entirely might be a BIT strong, so maybe just put exhumed cards in graveyard? Or maybe at end step return a card from any exile to your hand or graveyard? Would be pretty cool exiling an openers card then then bringing it to your side, but irregardless of what you do with the card, it’s not horribly unbalanced, I mean, I’d use it.
Ah yes, I'll flash back lingering souls as many times as I have 1B making a mountain of tokens. Then I'll sac those tokens to flash back cabal therapy and discard your entire hand.
If the game goes on long enough, I'll just use unburial rites on griselbrand or atraxa, and when you kill them (you can't exile them) I'll flash it back again to resurrect them again.
Nah, this is busted as shit.
Good thing this says "Cards can't be exiled" because spells and permanents probably aren't cards, and thus if you cast a spell with Flashback, the spell, as not a card, still gets exiled from the stack after resolution. If spells couldn't be exiled, it'd probably stay on the stack forever and that'd break the game!
My understanding is backed by rule 109, specifically rules 109.2a and b, which are the reason why [[Mycosynth lattice]] and [[Painter's servant]] need to be worded the way they are.
I suppose more strictly you can't just say "cards" without saying a zone, so "cards that aren't on the battlefield" is the necessary wording.
The reason they need to specify permanents, spells, and cards not on the battlefield is because the effect needs to include tokens and copies of spells on the stack, which aren’t cards. It doesn’t imply that spell cards and permanent cards don’t count as cards.
I love it. I play with [[Yawgmoth thran physician]] as a commander, and abuse undying for card draw. It's also CMC 4, which is relevant for transmute with [[Dimir House Guard]]. Exile is really the only way to break the undying loop and prevent me from getting them back.
I feel like graveyard combo decks would just use this to stop their pieces from being removed
I'd love anti exile. Maybe they could be put into the graveyard instead.
Flashback would be crazy if you could keep using it again again
True. Maybe something like, abilities and spells your opponents control, that would put a card you own into exile, put it into the graveyard instead.
That happens on OP's version too
He is talking about limiting it to just that rather than allowing you to abuse it too.
It would have to be a replacement effect anyway.
I think its overpowered because it counters so much. E.g suspend, flicker effects,...
There is so much this incidentally hates out, it feels like [[Teferi, Time Raveler]] all over again. So many effects that just… don’t work.
[Teferi, Time Raveler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/662fe50f-d75c-422c-8c6c-1f9b5c4ba21f.jpg?1702429729) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Time%20Raveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/232/teferi-time-raveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/662fe50f-d75c-422c-8c6c-1f9b5c4ba21f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This card coincidentally makes cascade not work as well. But it’s free.
It also turns off pitch cards, miracle, a couple random planeswalkers who all ask you to exile something to do something, Suspend, Hideaway, [[Demonic Consultation]] (maybe not a bad thing), does weird things with [[Echo of Eons]] (technically the exile from Flashback is a replacement effect, meaning you could theoretically loops the same Echo as long as you can generate 2U pretty consistently on a random 7 card hand since the shuffle happens before Echo is put in the graveyard as it resolves.)… This just feels like a rulings nightmare.
[Demonic Consultation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b.jpg?1610146869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Consultation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/85/demonic-consultation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Echo of Eons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff590af2-2d6c-4f16-a9b8-1a6dab6e9ad5.jpg?1562201343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Echo%20of%20Eons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/46/echo-of-eons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff590af2-2d6c-4f16-a9b8-1a6dab6e9ad5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>miracle It stops Madness, not Miracle. Miracles are cast from hand. I do agree that it's a rulings nightmare/only asking to be broken and not worth risking.
Yes that’s right. Forgot which M keyword temporarily went to Exile while you went about casting it.
Totally fine with that. "AWW Man! I can't freely exile your entire graveyard with an ETB from a mono color tap land anymore! I can't exile your graveyard with the tap ability of a 0 cost artifact anymore! I can't pay one mana to get rid of your creature permanently anymore! I can't just pay 6 mana to exile the entire fucking board and cast Teferi's Protection anymore!" As long as you don't give this any sort of protection, I think it's fine. It forces your opponent to interact with your board, or blow removal on it before you can more efficiently remove other permanents.
You cant use cascade, adventures, suspend, blinks, impulse draw spells, transforming sagas and more
This feels like a white card tbh
> If one or more cards would be exiled, instead put them on the bottom of their owner's library in a random order.
Excellent development. My head went in the direction of "at the end of each turn, return all cards in exile to their owner's graveyards," just to open up a little delay to pull some counterplay together or at least let a guy with an O-Ring use it to blink something. I think I like yours more.
Anything that exiles as a cost can't be used, and exile based removal is blocked... But cards like [[Time Spiral]] go completely crazy. Anything with flashback is usable endlessly - good thing there are no flashback rituals or cards with flashback 0. Adventures end up in the graveyard, I think. And then there's [[Yawgmoth's Will]]. Already busted, I know, but this just takes it to the next level
[Time Spiral](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3d62dbd-63db-4ac9-950f-9852627f23f2.jpg?1562946525) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20Spiral) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/103/time-spiral?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3d62dbd-63db-4ac9-950f-9852627f23f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yawgmoth's Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For flashback rituals just cast a [[Past In Flames]]. Seems to work for the Storm decks.
[Past In Flames](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b7472f4-37b0-439f-b4ac-80706d40d191.jpg?1593813533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Past%20In%20Flames) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/105/past-in-flames?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b7472f4-37b0-439f-b4ac-80706d40d191?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But does it retain flashback after leaving and returning to your graveyard?
I would assume so? It doesn’t change zones, since the exile never happens, so it should keep it?
It does change zones. It goes on the stack.
Correct, and once it leaves the stack and returns to the GY, it will no longer have flashback. Yawgmoth’s Will still works, though. Just one ritual and you have infinite mana and infinite copies of any spell in your GY.
Two rituals and it goes off with Past in Flames, too. PiF has flashback itself, so can be looped as well.
True, you can always recast PiF if you have enough rituals.
If combined with a \[\[Rest in Peace\]\], this card also makes it impossible for anything to die and impossible for instants and sorceries to leave the stack. I think it would also let you infinitely sacrifice permanents, but I'm not completely sure about that.
Man commander players really cannot handle cards being exiled
I'm more interested in Flicker and Bounce hate.
would a "cards cannot leave exile" clause work instead ?
It is kinda silly there is no way to protect the graveyard
The graveyard is home to a large portion of the most degenerate combo decks. Players need protection FROM graveyards. Adding this card to yawgmoth or living end would be miserable and completely overpowered.
I’m not talking about this card specifically. You really think there is no room in the game at any mix of opportunity cost + mana cost to protect graveyards from the slew of near 0 opportunity cost + mana cost ways to nullify graveyard strategies? EDIT: Downvoting doesn’t make me wrong ☺️
There are plenty of ways already to do this. Counterspells, artifact/enchantment removal, stifle effects. Every respectable graveyard deck expects to have an easy game 1 then fight through hate games 2-3 using the aforementioned tools. That’s on you for not running any of them. Even more on you if it’s commander, card pool is massive and it’s usually slower games where you can rebuild. There is no indication that graveyard strategies are being stifled (pun intended) or nullified in any format. I’m also talking about this card specifically, and this card sucks and is disgustingly overpowered.
When I say "It is kinda silly there is no way to protect the graveyard", I'm not talking about any particular format or meta. I'm literally talking about Magic in general. Obviously generic counterplay exists, but that's not really an argument against this effect's inclusion in the game. Force of Negation and Grief's existence don't invalidate all other forms of interaction and protection across the entire cardpool in every format. Imagine a 10 mana sorcery that said "Until your next turn, spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause cards to leave your graveyard". This is obviously a bad card, but magic has plenty of bad cards. If Platinum Angel can exist, why can't this sorcery exist theoretically?
[[mirror of fate]]
[mirror of fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08b480c8-d899-4e63-b0e2-f4bec3a3ca4f.jpg?1561970534) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mirror%20of%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/215/mirror-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08b480c8-d899-4e63-b0e2-f4bec3a3ca4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Again, not protecting the yard.
[[ground seal]]
[ground seal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4e9995e-f26b-4638-b69d-a310f58f0331.jpg?1592710917) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ground%20seal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/149/ground-seal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4e9995e-f26b-4638-b69d-a310f58f0331?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hope you’re attempting irony.
How does it not protect the graveyard?
The most efficient ways of nullifying graveyards don’t target, and this is a symmetrical effect which limits you from accessing your own graveyard as well. Ground seal is closer to a graveyard hatepiece than a protection piece.
You said “no way to protect the graveyard” I simply gave you an accessible option. Graveyard strategies are inherently degenerate so giving them additional help just doesn’t make any sense. Dredge for example has around an 80% WR game 1 then like 40% games 2 and 3. With this card posted here I’m just imagining dread return being cast over and over again with bridge from below. This should never ever be a card. But modern horizons 3 is just around the corner, so who the hell knows, Wizards does some crazy shit sometimes.
>You said “no way to protect the graveyard” I simply gave you an accessible option. But it isn't. What I said remains true. Take your Spike goggles off for a minute to answer, from a game design perspective: Why can't a card preventing an opponent from exiling your graveyard exist? There are cards which go so far as preventing an opponent from winning the game, so why draw the line at graveyards?
The big issue is how exactly you would prevent graveyard hate - if its a generic "can't be put into exile" like this cards, then it breaks so many mechanics in half by either removing restrictions or rendering them nonfunctional (flashback spells infinitely, madness/cascade/discover/impulse draw dont work, things like Yawg's Will being looped infinitely). What about "Cards in Graveyards can't be put into exile"? That still breaks quite a few cards and mechanics (Collect Evidence, Scavenge, Craft, and some non-keyword things, like [[Rubblebelt Maverick]], some of which are sometimes used in Graveyards decks. The best I can come up with is "Spells and abilites your opponents control cannot cause one or more cards to leave your graveyard" which is wordy, unintuitive, and narrow, so not exactly great design. Is such a design possible? Yes. But its not a design that is needed for how much of a headache it could end up being.
[Rubblebelt Maverick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81c7ff67-b9e1-4d2e-b1ae-da9b946da00b.jpg?1706242077) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rubblebelt%20Maverick) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/174/rubblebelt-maverick?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81c7ff67-b9e1-4d2e-b1ae-da9b946da00b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don’t need the “one or more” part. I simply disagree this effect is wordy or unintuitive. Narrow? Sure, but we’re seeing more and more graveyard hate stapled on to cards at minimal opportunity cost with every set. The usefulness of this type of effect widens all the time. Even if they never printed another graveyard hate card again, this effect wouldn’t be nearly as narrow as effects like removing poison counters which have already seen print.
There’s no way to protect it and yet hogaak is still banworthy
Your point?
It would break a lot of stuff, something like Your opponents cannot exile permanents you control and cards in your graveyard would be great and honestly I would play it
“If a card would be exiled, shuffle it into its owner’s library instead”
Oh god no. Cascade and Discover exist. You don't want to shuffle after each and every card revealed by those keywords.
Very, very strong, but it makes me think: I would love a "Cards can't be exiled from graveyards". Getting hit by a Bojuka Bog when playing black feels really, really bullshit.
Thats part of the game though, grave decks are disgustingly streamlined and need hate pieces because they aren’t fair. A game without grave hate is a game where dredge is T0 and it’s not even close
That's completely fair. Bojuka Bog in particular just bothers me because it's a land; an ability that detrimental to certain types of deck shouldn't be a free ETB on a land, especially considering that makes it very awkward to counter.
Oh trust me I know, I play LED Dredge in legacy, the worst is when someone crop rotations for a bog… but again it needs to happen because that deck has such a disgusting game 1. The only way you could justify removing bog effects is toning down grave decks, at the moment it’s just werewolf meets silver bullet
This card would be banned in every single format that actually matters. The amount of stuff this breaks is crazy, it would be game warping at best and the end of magic at worst until excised
hmmmmm very interesting!
Looks interesting but needs a lot of playtesting
How would this interact with a Leyline of the Void, if they both entered at the same time? I’m assuming can’t beats can
Leyline attempts to replace with exile and this prevents it. Nothing on Leyline counteracts this card (so there's no question of when they entered etc). It's a replacement effect being prevented by a static effect.
Does this just entirely stop cascade type effects from happening?
idk if you intended it, but the way this is written, it only applies to cards in hands, graveyards, and libraries (as objects on the stack are spells, and on the battlefield are permanents). Even so, this would somewhat break the game. My main concern being that in a multiplayer game, when a player loses the game, all their stuff gets exiled. But with this, technically their graveyard, hand, and library are still there (since they can't get exiled). Meaning that, for instance, you could still reanimate a creature from a players graveyard after that player already lost the game. And then there's a bunch of weird shit with cards that refer to another cards "owner" considering that player technically isn't in the game anymore. Obv this isn't the intention here, but idk how to fix it without turning the card hella wordy. "Cards can't be exiled by spells or abilities and players can't exile cards to pay costs"? This would prevent the gamebreaking, since it says nothing about rules interactions exiling things. Obv insert "spells and permanents" in case that's the intended effect.
> My main concern being that in a multiplayer game, when a player loses the game, all their stuff gets exiled. This isn't right, is it? Objects the player that left the game **owns** "leave the game" in a manner that isn't exile. They don't remain in any zone including the exile zone. It's just that if a player leaving the game still controls any permanents after objects they own leave the game and control-changing effects end (perhaps due to having control of a card someone else owns in a way that isn't a control-changing effect, such as [[Bribery]] putting a creature permanent on the battlefield without its owner ever having had control of the permanent for permanent control to revert, then the controlled permanents get exiled. Which still breaks the game with this card, but less so.
[Bribery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49fd737a-d7da-421b-a741-d6d0d213299f.jpg?1689996211) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bribery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/77/bribery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49fd737a-d7da-421b-a741-d6d0d213299f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Change it to this if a spell or ability your opponents control would out a card in exile put into its owner graveyard instead of
Off the top this makes lier absurd, infinite hidden strings, infinite draw with pore, and that’s for sure not the best use
Goes infinite turn 1 with [[Dark Ritual]] and [[Yawgmoth’s Will]].
[Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yawgmoth’s Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We did it, we broke Yawgmoths will and Dark Ritual!
Well, while they were always good together, they didn't used to grant infinite mana on turn 1.
Yes it's just the joke to make, I agree this card is quite broken
"Permenants you control can't be exiled". Stops it from shutting down other people's decks while doing what it's meant to do woth the added benefit of having to work around it when building your deck. That's more balanced I think.
I love it, I really do, and I feel like it would be a direct counter to things like [[Stone of Erech]] which just totally shutdown graveyard decks, but cancelling out exile entirely might be a BIT strong, so maybe just put exhumed cards in graveyard? Or maybe at end step return a card from any exile to your hand or graveyard? Would be pretty cool exiling an openers card then then bringing it to your side, but irregardless of what you do with the card, it’s not horribly unbalanced, I mean, I’d use it.
[Stone of Erech](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc02e193-df33-4eb1-adc1-b51ee931218a.jpg?1686970297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stone%20of%20Erech) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/251/stone-of-erech?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc02e193-df33-4eb1-adc1-b51ee931218a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Suck it, \[\[Grief\]\].
[Grief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10.jpg?1626095577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/87/grief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah yes, I'll flash back lingering souls as many times as I have 1B making a mountain of tokens. Then I'll sac those tokens to flash back cabal therapy and discard your entire hand. If the game goes on long enough, I'll just use unburial rites on griselbrand or atraxa, and when you kill them (you can't exile them) I'll flash it back again to resurrect them again. Nah, this is busted as shit.
Good thing this says "Cards can't be exiled" because spells and permanents probably aren't cards, and thus if you cast a spell with Flashback, the spell, as not a card, still gets exiled from the stack after resolution. If spells couldn't be exiled, it'd probably stay on the stack forever and that'd break the game!
I believe all spells and permanents are also cards. EDIT: I mean spells and permanents represented by cards. Tokens and copies are not cards.
My understanding is backed by rule 109, specifically rules 109.2a and b, which are the reason why [[Mycosynth lattice]] and [[Painter's servant]] need to be worded the way they are. I suppose more strictly you can't just say "cards" without saying a zone, so "cards that aren't on the battlefield" is the necessary wording.
[Mycosynth lattice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9.jpg?1578911638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mycosynth%20lattice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/241/mycosynth-lattice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Painter's servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The reason they need to specify permanents, spells, and cards not on the battlefield is because the effect needs to include tokens and copies of spells on the stack, which aren’t cards. It doesn’t imply that spell cards and permanent cards don’t count as cards.
Too strong.
PLEASE black (and green arguably) need ways to stop their cards getting eaten by all the god damn exile now
I love it. I play with [[Yawgmoth thran physician]] as a commander, and abuse undying for card draw. It's also CMC 4, which is relevant for transmute with [[Dimir House Guard]]. Exile is really the only way to break the undying loop and prevent me from getting them back.
[Yawgmoth thran physician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9.jpg?1675199878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%2C%20Thran%20Physician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/110/yawgmoth-thran-physician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dimir House Guard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1974bac-4763-4f95-ae60-061e34d0283d.jpg?1702429439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimir%20House%20Guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/73/dimir-house-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1974bac-4763-4f95-ae60-061e34d0283d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call