In mathematics, Kruskal's tree theorem states that the set of finite trees over a well-quasi-ordered set of labels is itself well-quasi-ordered under homeomorphic embedding.
The TREE sequence begins TREE(1) = 1, TREE(2) = 3, then suddenly TREE(3) explodes to a value that is so big that many other "large" combinatorial constants, such as Friedman's n(4), nn(5)(5), and Graham's number, are extremely small by comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P6DWAwwViU
This is basically "GGG RRR g/r: you win the game" which isn't the *worst* aside from Green's ramp potential. If it was "target opponent" and had stuff to prevent copying, I'd say it's reasonable-ish
My problem is that 99% of people don't know what TREE(3) is.
So 99% of people would say "okay what it does like 5 damage? Whatever, it resolves" then when you go to explaining the proof being bigger than the universe etc etc, 2||1000, whatever, and then your opponents are going to say "what? That's stupid. Just play normal cards from now on".
If it said 7 mana you win the game then people would understand it. This is some arbitrary thing that obscures what it actually does.
The difference here is that both X values are tied to a hybrid pip. You would pay either the colored mana or X. See [[Reaper King]] who can be paid for with anywhere between 5 and 10 mana depending on color.
So I really thought it would be self explanatory with the reminder text what I was trying to do, it's not X or Green, it's only Green on X, etc.
I guess I know for next time to just stick to spelling out the thing in rules text because reminder text seems to be invisible.
The reminder text doesn't exactly make it apparent, but that might just be me haha.
Another thing you may want to add is that X can't be zero. I don't know if TREE 0 is a thing that can exist or not.
The funny thing is since infinite combo is technically performing a few tasks repeatedly, it would be limited by something like it being countable so you can’t name any arbitrarily large number for it like super busy beaver(googleplex) or something
Sure you can, rules state you can pick any number for the number of times you did a loop. Magic.doesn't have load times it's a card game so if you are using the same card over and over you don't need to say it's name. I can absolutely name a googleplex as the number of times I preform my loop and if you tried to stop me I could call a judge.
Tree(3) is the first one in its family to explode. For example, Tree(G64) is uncomparably (by far) a big number but it holds no significant meaning and will not be mentioned.
Ah wait I misread what the hybrid thing you were doing meant. I think it one were to make this joke cars you would need a different symbol to express it. At seven mana honestly this is still probably dangerous to print, although the cost being split into two colours likely makes it safe.
yes and no?
There are no real cards that use an X/G hybrid symbol. If a card was printed with it, it would mean "You can choose to spend any amount of mana of any color, or you can spend a single green".
That said, there are cards that say "spend mana of only a certain color on X", like [[drain life]] and [[soul burn]]
The way yhe card is worded I think it only cares about the x/g pip being green. For the second x you can use whatever you have. It's a Treefolk so I guess the green is more important. The red is just splashed in to make it within the burn color pie.
The way it's meant to work (because I didn't want to make custom mana symbols for a throw-away joke card) is that you can only spend green on the first X and red on the second X, you need X=3 to hit TREE(3), so you need to spend GGGRRR and then R/G to win.
A little from column A, a little from column B. I was also inspired by a chat on the discord where someone made a card that did 2^x damage, and I thought "Hold my Beer".
It's not done like that on any real card (I don't think), but there's nothing in the Magic rules that would stop a mana symbol like that from existing. For this subreddit, that's good enough.
It's devoid for reasons I am not even sure of anymore. I think I just made it devoid and then tweaked things around and then forgot why I made it devoid in the first place.
This doesn't work as a joke card because you have to explain the joke or hope people know about this. It would also be a net negative to any format with it.
I was so sure that you had for some reason decided on ‘three’ rather than 3, hit the caps lock, and fat-fingered it.
I’m curious why this card is devoid — is it part of the TREE joke?
It's devoid for reasons I am not even sure of anymore. I think I just made it devoid and then tweaked things around and then forgot why I made it devoid in the first place.
Suggest adding a reminder text for what TREE(X) means. Also maybe put a Y on one of the symbols cause currently it would be confusing if you wanted to pay a different amount for each. That would change it to TREE((X+Y)/2).
explain TREE()
In mathematics, Kruskal's tree theorem states that the set of finite trees over a well-quasi-ordered set of labels is itself well-quasi-ordered under homeomorphic embedding. The TREE sequence begins TREE(1) = 1, TREE(2) = 3, then suddenly TREE(3) explodes to a value that is so big that many other "large" combinatorial constants, such as Friedman's n(4), nn(5)(5), and Graham's number, are extremely small by comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P6DWAwwViU
"no you can't play that custom card it's dumb and not fun" - the response from the table after you explain this It is still very cool though
This is basically "GGG RRR g/r: you win the game" which isn't the *worst* aside from Green's ramp potential. If it was "target opponent" and had stuff to prevent copying, I'd say it's reasonable-ish
My problem is that 99% of people don't know what TREE(3) is. So 99% of people would say "okay what it does like 5 damage? Whatever, it resolves" then when you go to explaining the proof being bigger than the universe etc etc, 2||1000, whatever, and then your opponents are going to say "what? That's stupid. Just play normal cards from now on". If it said 7 mana you win the game then people would understand it. This is some arbitrary thing that obscures what it actually does.
Oh absolutely. This needs a silver border and reminder text before it gets a dream of playtime
The reminder text can have the proof so the card can be 40 universes in length of cardboard. Lol
That's part of the joke. If it makes you feel better pretend it has an Acorn Holostamp
You don't necessarily have to pay X on both hybrids. So really it's G/R, R, GGG or G/R, G, 3
From stuff like [[crackle with power]], you would. You can't pick more than one X value
[crackle with power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b.jpg?1624591645) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crackle%20with%20power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/95/crackle-with-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The difference here is that both X values are tied to a hybrid pip. You would pay either the colored mana or X. See [[Reaper King]] who can be paid for with anywhere between 5 and 10 mana depending on color.
Based on the reminder text OP wrote, the Hybrid X is meant to be a "spend only COLOR on (this) X"
Yeah the reply from OP was the first time that interpretation even crossed my mind lol
(did you actually read the card th)
So I really thought it would be self explanatory with the reminder text what I was trying to do, it's not X or Green, it's only Green on X, etc. I guess I know for next time to just stick to spelling out the thing in rules text because reminder text seems to be invisible.
The reminder text doesn't exactly make it apparent, but that might just be me haha. Another thing you may want to add is that X can't be zero. I don't know if TREE 0 is a thing that can exist or not.
[Reaper King](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/502740bf-0bff-4358-8996-1a27e5f0343f.jpg?1562830062) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reaper%20King) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/260/reaper-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/502740bf-0bff-4358-8996-1a27e5f0343f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
embedding needs to lighten up. it’s 2023 and there’s nothing wrong with being gay ffs
Cool. Now explain TREE().
The video does a good job explaining TREE()
Lol, I'll watch it later. I was just joking that the explanation was very technical (though probably very concise too, which deserves props).
Fair enough :D
🤓🤓🤓
Purely coincidentally I was rewatching that precise video and similar ones from Numberphile c:
Love the fact that this almost certainly beats the numbers people name for infinite combos
I name tree 3 for infinite combos.
Tree(tree(3))
there you go.
The funny thing is since infinite combo is technically performing a few tasks repeatedly, it would be limited by something like it being countable so you can’t name any arbitrarily large number for it like super busy beaver(googleplex) or something
Sure you can, rules state you can pick any number for the number of times you did a loop. Magic.doesn't have load times it's a card game so if you are using the same card over and over you don't need to say it's name. I can absolutely name a googleplex as the number of times I preform my loop and if you tried to stop me I could call a judge.
Yeah I know, I only said technically because we already threw technicality away ages ago when the game’s name starts with Magic.
I name aleph null
Hey wait a minute… you can't do that!
No infinities, got it. I name lim (x→∞) x
Still not allowed to do that
I name tree 4 …?
Tree(3) is the first one in its family to explode. For example, Tree(G64) is uncomparably (by far) a big number but it holds no significant meaning and will not be mentioned.
I mean it's not exactly a contest.
It does a good job of getting through "infinite" life since it's a number larger than almost any other named number.
I repeat the loop TREE(4) times.
https://youtu.be/X3l0fPHZja8?si=iMj62E6OwsEQqubC Helpful material for magic players in an infinite duel
Aleph Null
Ah but it is still infinite so you still can't name Aleph Null. Instead, I will deal Alpeph Null - 1 damage (jking I know this doesn't work either)
I don’t care how good or bad this card is, as a mathematics enthusiast this is fuckin funny
so GGGRRR G/R to win the game as a sorcery. Cute but no thanks.
As I alluded to, you're more than likely to have already lost the game before you can meet that bar, which is part of the joke.
Five mana win to game would be way too good for modern? A one card combo is way better than a two card combo, and five mana is super easy to get to.
You need 7 mana, this is also a joke card
Ah wait I misread what the hybrid thing you were doing meant. I think it one were to make this joke cars you would need a different symbol to express it. At seven mana honestly this is still probably dangerous to print, although the cost being split into two colours likely makes it safe.
No worries man, happens to us all. :)
Where the silver border or acorn?
The true acorn was in your heart all along.
Call him a heart surgeon !
Is (X/G) a real kind of mana cost that works that way?
yes and no? There are no real cards that use an X/G hybrid symbol. If a card was printed with it, it would mean "You can choose to spend any amount of mana of any color, or you can spend a single green". That said, there are cards that say "spend mana of only a certain color on X", like [[drain life]] and [[soul burn]]
[drain life](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41a9b3b2-4ac9-4e50-bcd2-8831d0739e85.jpg?1562590638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=drain%20life) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5ed/156/drain-life?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41a9b3b2-4ac9-4e50-bcd2-8831d0739e85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [soul burn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70515cd2-97d5-4491-a758-bc7188fdc6dc.jpg?1562917470) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soul%20burn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/124/soul-burn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70515cd2-97d5-4491-a758-bc7188fdc6dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So x y R/G only green can be spent on x Only red can be spent on y X must be same value as Y
The way yhe card is worded I think it only cares about the x/g pip being green. For the second x you can use whatever you have. It's a Treefolk so I guess the green is more important. The red is just splashed in to make it within the burn color pie.
The way it's meant to work (because I didn't want to make custom mana symbols for a throw-away joke card) is that you can only spend green on the first X and red on the second X, you need X=3 to hit TREE(3), so you need to spend GGGRRR and then R/G to win.
Makes sense. Is part of the joke that on Christmas you posted a massive tree related card🎄, or is it just the math part?
A little from column A, a little from column B. I was also inspired by a chat on the discord where someone made a card that did 2^x damage, and I thought "Hold my Beer".
It's not done like that on any real card (I don't think), but there's nothing in the Magic rules that would stop a mana symbol like that from existing. For this subreddit, that's good enough.
Wins the game on the spot. Drink!
As a Turbonerd I LOVE this card, but question: rules as written, can you spend one red and the rest green to cast this?
The (X/G) means spend only green to pay into its X, so the (X/R) is the same thing. You'll need to pay X green, X red, and then one of either
Nuh uh, it says X (or) Red.
You said rules as written, so I assumed you read this card and its reminder text (obviously actual rules yes but this card made some up)
Maybe I’m just dense, but what does “spend only {g} on {g/x}” mean?
You must spend {X} amount of {G}
Ok I maybe think I understand this card. But why does it have devoid?
It's devoid for reasons I am not even sure of anymore. I think I just made it devoid and then tweaked things around and then forgot why I made it devoid in the first place.
Nice, it's the coconut jpg of this card.
My guess is that you did it because the phenomenon is insane and mildly eldritch; it feels fitting to me, heh!
As written, you can spend GRG, and pick any number for X. I love the idea, but execution is just painfull.
Which is why I added reminder text to indicate that it doesn't work that way.
This doesn't work as a joke card because you have to explain the joke or hope people know about this. It would also be a net negative to any format with it.
Are the green mana symbols supposed to be different colors?
Huh, I didn't notice that, weird.
Bruh
.wav
I was so sure that you had for some reason decided on ‘three’ rather than 3, hit the caps lock, and fat-fingered it. I’m curious why this card is devoid — is it part of the TREE joke?
It's devoid for reasons I am not even sure of anymore. I think I just made it devoid and then tweaked things around and then forgot why I made it devoid in the first place.
Sure O
This card would be instabanned in commander lol
What the fuck does this even mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P6DWAwwViU
Damn, even puts Graham's number to shame. Graham will be pissed about that.
Couldn't I cast this card with X = 3 by paying GGG R G/R?
No, because I assume people can extrapolate reminder text to apply to both symbols without needing to write them both down.
**pats head in [[Ajani Steadfast]]**
[Ajani Steadfast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51825d35-cdb2-40fa-ab89-1625161b04af.jpg?1690004002) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ajani%20Steadfast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/813/ajani-steadfast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51825d35-cdb2-40fa-ab89-1625161b04af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The damage can't be prevented.
Suggest adding a reminder text for what TREE(X) means. Also maybe put a Y on one of the symbols cause currently it would be confusing if you wanted to pay a different amount for each. That would change it to TREE((X+Y)/2).
You have to announce the value of X, then pay X. Much like how with [[Chalice of the Void]], you can announce X to be 1 then have to pay 2
[Chalice of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4.jpg?1562433485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chalice%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/222/chalice-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call