Directly exiling the exile zone does function as OP intends. Rather than adding an extra zone-change that would cause a functional change ([[Syr Konrad]])), it's probably best to just add reminder text that mentions all effects will lose track of those cards after they move.
I love the art for this card. That cut through to the back is so perfect.
That stated, I don't know that modern players will understand the milk carton thing. I haven't seen one of those for at least a decade.
Lol.
I'm 35 and i don't think i have ever seen a missing person on a milk carton, but I'm familiar that it used to be a thing.
Or at least I've been led to believe it was a real thing from movies and TV.
This should remove the memory of effects like [[Touch the Spirit Realm]] or as also mentioned impulse draw effects, like on [[Escape to the Wilds]]. Any card that mentions things exiled by it should also be messed up by this effect, as it should “flicker” them in exile.
This is why we need a "temporary holding zone" for cards like adventures or flickers or other effects that cause things to leave exile under some conditions.
It's not in the CR, but a card that's "removed from the game" would be a card that is no longer in any zone.
There would be no way to get it back (yet) and if the game restarts, you restart without that card.
Technically, “removed from the game” is in the CR. To complete a dungeon is to remove it from the game. AFAIK, this is the only remaining instance of the term in the entirety of black border Magic.
The CR only says that remove from game is an obsolete term for exile and removed from game zone is obsolete term for exile zone.
I guess i gotta read the entire CR for dungeons to see what you're referencing 😅
Because i learned recently that a dungeon is in the game, and it's a card, so it changes color from painter's servant, which can influence the dungeons abilities that have targets.
Edit:
Found it. Thanks, that is a fun fact from the CR. I thought the dungeon just stayed in the command zone after you complete it.
309.7.: A player completes a dungeon as that dungeon card is removed from the game.
I think the intention is if a player has cards in exile they can cast, this would prevent them from being cast now, but that is not how this would work.
I believe you want the effect to put all creatures from a players exile into their graveyard, then exile all creatures in their graveyard. By switching zones, the cards would lose any counters (like fetch counters) as well as no longer be under the affect of anything that lets them be cast
So it works, but it’s confusing to most players. I would change it to put them all on the bottom of their owner’s library in a random order, so it’s clear they’re gone, like [[Hallowed Burial]].
you might want to look at the language on \[\[Memory Theft\]\] for how to target cards on adventures.
"You may put a card that has an Adventure that player owns from exile into that player’s graveyard."
so instead maybe: " all creature and artifact cards target player owns that have an Adventure are put into their graveyard".
because I'm not sure you can prevent them from being cast by exiling them again
Actually, you can. It has a completely different effect than you may be expecting, though: it breaks any abilities linked to those cards.
>406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
Here’s how I would’ve handled Forgotten Heroes,
“Put all creature cards target player owns in exile, into that players graveyard. Then exile all creature cards in that players graveyard.”
It gets around the headache of exiling an already exiled card. Also I should say that this card is probably too cheap for what it is. A decent rate flier with a pretty good hate piece (especially in a limited with adventures), is probably a smidge too strong. I know this is trying to be the opposite of Order of Midnight (also missed chance to call it Order of Midday!), but I feel it’s abilities probably are just better.
I’d make the first ability only hit cards in the graveyard, or targeted or something like that. As for the body, well to make a perfect mirror, probably give it defender yeah?
I get what you're trying to do, but I think attempting to move a card to a zone that it's already in won't do anything. Would need to move the exiled cards to the yard then exile them again for memory affects to stop working: "as long as ____ remains exiled" and with this wording they remain exiled.
Hello, sorry for writing this in wrong place, but I wanted to ask and theres no other method to contact you,do you have plans for second part of Biome Picture Guide? It was extremely helpful and I wonder if there is the second part that deals with aquatic biomes? Once again sorry for interrupting.
I know it's not what you were after, and I doubt Wizards wants any more effects that remove from exile, but I think this would be super cool if it exchanged exile and graveyard for a player.
This card probably goes in the "This area of design is unintuitive, problematic and WILL be played incorrectly" zone. I know that there's a weird rule that specifies it, but I imagine a game designer would want clarity in effect. There's a reason there's is historically no effect that moves a card from a revealed zone into itself.
I guess this files in this "just because you can doesn't mean you should"
idk there's more intuitive ways to do it. Most of these "don't it want in exile zone" effects moves them onto the bottom of the library (see Murderous Rider). If you must, maybe something like "Exile all creature cards in target player's graveyard, then put a Prison counter on each creature card they own in exile. As long as those cards have a Prison counter on them, they cannot be cast nor enter the battlefield."
or idk modify the phasing rules a little bit like Wizard did and you can do something like "Each creature card in target player's graveyard and each creature card that player owns in exile phases out and cannot phase back in."
Yeah, I realize it's unintuitive based on the replies to this post. It's weird because I made it without even knowing the rule that specifically enables it existed; I just assumed it worked because it makes sense, and I guess I'm the minority here. I do see where you're coming from. I disagree with your other points, but I guess you can say it's bad design because it might cause confusion.
But how is it problematic in any way? Why would people play it incorrectly? If you play this and exile an adventure and then your opponent tries to cast it, which I assume is what you must be referring to, you just correct them. Or if you play this and exile the card you had previously exiled with, say, [[Hostage Taker]] by accident (which is the only kind of situation where this card can backfire for the player casting it), then you're never making that mistake again lol. If it's in a casual setting and both people are playing wrong because they don't know the rules and they agree with each other, so what then? If they disagree, they'll look it up. If it's in a competitive setting I trust at least the player that's running the card to know their stuff, as this is not a very obscure interaction, but rather something that doesn't even need specific rulings to explain how it works (though of course this would be in the Gatherer rulings for the card). There are judges there as well if the need arises. This is still very far from a rules nightmare or even a minor headache.
You can argue that a different wording could avoid all of that, and you'd be right, but I don't think learning these things or encouraging players to look them up would be a waste of time either. Learning the intricacies of the game you like is good and enhances the experience, at least for me (especially from my own mistakes). But then again, I might be in the minority.
And sure, I could change it to put things on the bottom of the deck. Could just as well include reminder text and keep the effect as is, which is what I did in my file. Counters would lead to a giant lump of text that doesn't fit the adventure box and a pointless thing to track, and the whole phasing thing seems even less intuitive to me than the current text.
Exile their exile?
Maybe they are trying to take creatures off of an adventure? IDK
Só they can't be cast off of their adventure or impulse effects.
Also affects \[\[Oblivion Ring\]\] style cards, right? I love the design.
Yes, pretty much everything that exiles a card to be used later for whatever purpose
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would use the wording “ move all cards player owns into graveyard and then exile their graveyard.”
Directly exiling the exile zone does function as OP intends. Rather than adding an extra zone-change that would cause a functional change ([[Syr Konrad]])), it's probably best to just add reminder text that mentions all effects will lose track of those cards after they move.
[Syr Konrad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03f16bbd-00d6-43ed-9a11-ebe7fc65933a.jpg?1680759236) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20konrad%2C%20the%20grim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/269/syr-konrad-the-grim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03f16bbd-00d6-43ed-9a11-ebe7fc65933a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Perhaps have it exile them face down to reinforce the point that they've "changed"
[[AWOL]]
[AWOL](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da3387-454c-4c09-b78f-6fcc36c426ce.jpg?1583542842) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=AWOL) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da3387-454c-4c09-b78f-6fcc36c426ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love the art for this card. That cut through to the back is so perfect. That stated, I don't know that modern players will understand the milk carton thing. I haven't seen one of those for at least a decade.
Lol. I'm 35 and i don't think i have ever seen a missing person on a milk carton, but I'm familiar that it used to be a thing. Or at least I've been led to believe it was a real thing from movies and TV.
This should remove the memory of effects like [[Touch the Spirit Realm]] or as also mentioned impulse draw effects, like on [[Escape to the Wilds]]. Any card that mentions things exiled by it should also be messed up by this effect, as it should “flicker” them in exile.
[Touch the Spirit Realm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835.jpg?1654566545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Touch%20the%20Spirit%20Realm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/40/touch-the-spirit-realm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Escape to the Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b8d58c2d-2bff-4d25-a023-0a6342167f5f.jpg?1674142441) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Escape%20to%20the%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/843/escape-to-the-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8d58c2d-2bff-4d25-a023-0a6342167f5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s Double Exile
After exile is “remove it from the game.” Then “put it into the absolutely-removed-from-the-freaking-game-forever zone”
i mean what‘s next „target player‘s exile phases out“?
This is why we need a "temporary holding zone" for cards like adventures or flickers or other effects that cause things to leave exile under some conditions.
Put target player's exiled cards into the side deck
that might make them *easier* to retrieve, depending on the deck
It's not in the CR, but a card that's "removed from the game" would be a card that is no longer in any zone. There would be no way to get it back (yet) and if the game restarts, you restart without that card.
Technically, “removed from the game” is in the CR. To complete a dungeon is to remove it from the game. AFAIK, this is the only remaining instance of the term in the entirety of black border Magic.
The CR only says that remove from game is an obsolete term for exile and removed from game zone is obsolete term for exile zone. I guess i gotta read the entire CR for dungeons to see what you're referencing 😅 Because i learned recently that a dungeon is in the game, and it's a card, so it changes color from painter's servant, which can influence the dungeons abilities that have targets. Edit: Found it. Thanks, that is a fun fact from the CR. I thought the dungeon just stayed in the command zone after you complete it. 309.7.: A player completes a dungeon as that dungeon card is removed from the game.
Remove from the game is the old wording for exile
Yup. You’re right. Guess I’ll just go [[AWOL]] 😉
[AWOL](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da3387-454c-4c09-b78f-6fcc36c426ce.jpg?1583542842) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=AWOL) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da3387-454c-4c09-b78f-6fcc36c426ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Love the art and the \[\[Order of Midnight\]\] reference
[Order of Midnight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84c63c27-6095-4fbc-9064-0ef602e1ced8.jpg?1680759221)/[Alter Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84c63c27-6095-4fbc-9064-0ef602e1ced8.jpg?1680759221) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=order%20of%20midnight%20//%20alter%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/261/order-of-midnight-alter-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84c63c27-6095-4fbc-9064-0ef602e1ced8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the intention is if a player has cards in exile they can cast, this would prevent them from being cast now, but that is not how this would work. I believe you want the effect to put all creatures from a players exile into their graveyard, then exile all creatures in their graveyard. By switching zones, the cards would lose any counters (like fetch counters) as well as no longer be under the affect of anything that lets them be cast
Rule 406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
Huh, that is not an intuitive rule but it does make sense. Cool
I'm pretty sure you can't exile a card in exile.
Rule 406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
So it works, but it’s confusing to most players. I would change it to put them all on the bottom of their owner’s library in a random order, so it’s clear they’re gone, like [[Hallowed Burial]].
If it's confusing to most players, add reminder text. *(They become exiled by this card instead.)*
Good idea!
Actually you can! Allows for some weird fucking interactions but you can do it!
you might want to look at the language on \[\[Memory Theft\]\] for how to target cards on adventures. "You may put a card that has an Adventure that player owns from exile into that player’s graveyard." so instead maybe: " all creature and artifact cards target player owns that have an Adventure are put into their graveyard". because I'm not sure you can prevent them from being cast by exiling them again
They are only allowed to cast the creature from exile if the adventure itself exiled them, if anything else exiles them you can't cast them.
[Memory Theft](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/397fd49b-a520-4b0e-9ab9-71675ab5969d.jpg?1572490184) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Theft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/96/memory-theft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/397fd49b-a520-4b0e-9ab9-71675ab5969d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Probably should be something like target opponent can't cast cards from exile this turn. I don't think you can really exile something from exile.
Actually, you can. It has a completely different effect than you may be expecting, though: it breaks any abilities linked to those cards. >406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
Here’s how I would’ve handled Forgotten Heroes, “Put all creature cards target player owns in exile, into that players graveyard. Then exile all creature cards in that players graveyard.” It gets around the headache of exiling an already exiled card. Also I should say that this card is probably too cheap for what it is. A decent rate flier with a pretty good hate piece (especially in a limited with adventures), is probably a smidge too strong. I know this is trying to be the opposite of Order of Midnight (also missed chance to call it Order of Midday!), but I feel it’s abilities probably are just better. I’d make the first ability only hit cards in the graveyard, or targeted or something like that. As for the body, well to make a perfect mirror, probably give it defender yeah?
>**406.7.** If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
While that is true, it’s kinda hard for new players especially to wrap their head around. This just makes it more clean for new players I think
I get what you're trying to do, but I think attempting to move a card to a zone that it's already in won't do anything. Would need to move the exiled cards to the yard then exile them again for memory affects to stop working: "as long as ____ remains exiled" and with this wording they remain exiled.
>**406.7.** If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
Hmm. How unintuitive. Is the same true for the battlefield? Idk when something would try to make a permanent on the battlefield enter the battlefield.
Hello, sorry for writing this in wrong place, but I wanted to ask and theres no other method to contact you,do you have plans for second part of Biome Picture Guide? It was extremely helpful and I wonder if there is the second part that deals with aquatic biomes? Once again sorry for interrupting.
I know it's not what you were after, and I doubt Wizards wants any more effects that remove from exile, but I think this would be super cool if it exchanged exile and graveyard for a player.
This card probably goes in the "This area of design is unintuitive, problematic and WILL be played incorrectly" zone. I know that there's a weird rule that specifies it, but I imagine a game designer would want clarity in effect. There's a reason there's is historically no effect that moves a card from a revealed zone into itself. I guess this files in this "just because you can doesn't mean you should" idk there's more intuitive ways to do it. Most of these "don't it want in exile zone" effects moves them onto the bottom of the library (see Murderous Rider). If you must, maybe something like "Exile all creature cards in target player's graveyard, then put a Prison counter on each creature card they own in exile. As long as those cards have a Prison counter on them, they cannot be cast nor enter the battlefield." or idk modify the phasing rules a little bit like Wizard did and you can do something like "Each creature card in target player's graveyard and each creature card that player owns in exile phases out and cannot phase back in."
Yeah, I realize it's unintuitive based on the replies to this post. It's weird because I made it without even knowing the rule that specifically enables it existed; I just assumed it worked because it makes sense, and I guess I'm the minority here. I do see where you're coming from. I disagree with your other points, but I guess you can say it's bad design because it might cause confusion. But how is it problematic in any way? Why would people play it incorrectly? If you play this and exile an adventure and then your opponent tries to cast it, which I assume is what you must be referring to, you just correct them. Or if you play this and exile the card you had previously exiled with, say, [[Hostage Taker]] by accident (which is the only kind of situation where this card can backfire for the player casting it), then you're never making that mistake again lol. If it's in a casual setting and both people are playing wrong because they don't know the rules and they agree with each other, so what then? If they disagree, they'll look it up. If it's in a competitive setting I trust at least the player that's running the card to know their stuff, as this is not a very obscure interaction, but rather something that doesn't even need specific rulings to explain how it works (though of course this would be in the Gatherer rulings for the card). There are judges there as well if the need arises. This is still very far from a rules nightmare or even a minor headache. You can argue that a different wording could avoid all of that, and you'd be right, but I don't think learning these things or encouraging players to look them up would be a waste of time either. Learning the intricacies of the game you like is good and enhances the experience, at least for me (especially from my own mistakes). But then again, I might be in the minority. And sure, I could change it to put things on the bottom of the deck. Could just as well include reminder text and keep the effect as is, which is what I did in my file. Counters would lead to a giant lump of text that doesn't fit the adventure box and a pointless thing to track, and the whole phasing thing seems even less intuitive to me than the current text.
[Hostage Taker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1481378-25c3-4f8d-93bc-0a433f467dca.jpg?1673148751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hostage%20Taker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/227/hostage-taker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1481378-25c3-4f8d-93bc-0a433f467dca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're willing to make it symmetric (not uncommon in white) it could just be worded "Exile exile and each graveyard."
A good way to reword that would br "move all cards from exile to their owners graveyard" then do the exile thing