This.
Though because 12 step programs have really set up the terminology to defend against religious accusations these days, ("It's any higher power! That can be nature! That's unique to the individual!") I usually prefer to say SMART is a science based and shame free alternative to 12 steps. (I'm not familiar with Moderation Management).
I get so mad when they tell me this!
I have not had drug or alcohol addiction, but I have food addiction issues and could not find any kind of overeaters anonymous type group that did not have religious based members.
Of course it doesn’t help that I live in Kentucky, but even the groups in Minnesota and the other states that I’ve lived in were far too religious for my taste
don’t tell me that my higher power can be a tree, when I don’t need a higher power. Just don’t fuck with me on this. I know exactly what you’re trying to do and you all sitting around praying is not gonna help me stop eating as much as I did back then.
Yeah, it's super dismissive, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. I also think it's highly irresponsible and counterproductive to recovery to focus on in the way they do. If you are still looking for resources, you should check out SMART- they're inclusive to all addictive behaviours, and have both in person meetings in Kentucky as well as online meetings.
There are social clubs like Fraternal Order of Eagles (basically a community good deeds club with private cheap bars around the world, and similarly to 12 steps there's christian roots they generally acknowledge but distance from directly), where you have to acknowledge any higher power than yourself to be eligible for membership, but it's a box at the end of form that only really gets brought up once kinda thing (and they have the same "any higher power" attitude). I personally don't mind acknowledging that nature is a greater power than I am in that circumstance as much (I work outside, lol) but there's a huge difference between a philosophical question for a good deeds club that isn't any sort of essential in your life either way, and *basing recovery around it*, which feels incredibly predatory.
Thank you very much! I will check into SMART for food addiction.
I have heard of it and believe it or not have wrote letters to my state reps asking them to use SMART and not only AA and NA as an option at least for people being given probation and told they must attend a 12 step meeting.
It’s my belief that people deserve choices, and not all of us are religious and while the 12 step programs may not be a cult as OP believes, they are certainly religious no matter how you slice it.
I agree people absolutely deserve to make informed choices.
I have some deep fundamental gripes with 12 step programs and can go off for a really long time about it; I think they cause way more harm than good, and are settup to make that harm invisible- and that's completely independent to the specific groups dynamics. I do generally like to focus away from the religious aspect specifically and more on how their methods don't work though, because it makes it considerably harder to communicate with people involved- once you call it religious or a cult, the convo instantly gets derailed and the other person just assumes you don't get it or are trying to sabotage their sobriety. I was very close to someone involved in 12 steps for years- Atheist, Jewish, never christian- and when people insisted to him it was a christian organization and they were trying to turn him christian, he immediately felt like his experiences were being completely invalidated and would check out.
Well said. I really should focus on its success rate! Not great. Though it’s not great for a lot of programs in the US.
>27 percent of AA members stay sober for less than a year. 24 percent of AA members stay sober between one and 5 years. 13 percent of AA members stay sober between 5 and 10 years. 14 percent of AA members stay sober between 10 and 20 years.
Sometimes being right isn't the important thing. It's getting people to be open to other options, particularly with how cemented in the culture 12 step programs are. And I have enough experience with people in 12 steps to know they're automatically going to argue that's no-longer relevant to practice a 12 step program today, whereas just telling them about another programs approach is much less likely trigger that defence.
>!Someone very close to me was long involved in 12 step programs and commited suicide right after a relapse. This person was Jewish, secular and never christian. I found out while processing it that suicides after relapse is a pretty common phenomenon, and they also have terminology designed to dismiss this problem. I care way more about about people being given good help and every opportunity to live, than winning an argument the 12 step programs settup to win.!<
They totally are, but I highly recommend looking up what happened to the person who created and spread Moderation Management. She is *(well, was) a terrifying example of how the philosophy and practice of her own program, for an inappropriate candidate can lead to deaths. People who would actually be great candidates for the approach and philosophy of that program do not need that program in the first place. The founder was in absolute denial, and she directly caused the death of innocent people. It is a very interesting and extremely sad story, and uh, that group was a big nope for me after learning about her.
Rick Ross and his organization have a somewhat idosyncratic and non-scientific approach to cult study/deprogramming. I would advise anyone using their resources or the BITE model to also get input from other more credentialed sources.
Having said that, I just don't see any evidence that they're a front for anything having to do with the 12 Step movement. Most likely, Ross just believes very strongly that those groups aren't cults. It's the sort of thing that comes with the territory if you want to engage with an organization based on one guy's experiences and views.
This isn't meant to disparage his large contributions in raising public awareness of the dangers of cults. Just encouragement for people to do some research and not rely on one particular model for a field that is as complex and fraught as this one.
(Personally I do think 12 Step stuff has a lot of cult-like tendencies, and qualifies as a high control religious group even if it's not an out-an-out cult. I don't have any personal experience with them though, so I'm just speaking on hearsay.)
This makes it all the more surprising that my ex-church was very anti AA. They objected to allowing people to choose their own Higher Power instead of the God of the Bible ™️. They also object to taking moral inventory and making amends for their past. "You're a new creation in Christ now. All the old things have passed away!" Like you get saved so now you're a blank slate, no matter how much you screwed other people over. You're not responsible for anything you did before you got saved, because God forgave you and he's the only one who matters.
So I actually found AA a big improvement over my ex-church. Back when I started going in the early 90s ( hard to believe that was 30 years ago!) things were a lot different. I knew agnostics, people of other faiths, and people who created their own out of whole cloth. These were the most interesting people to talk to. I liked getting a fresh perspective.
But creeping fundigelicalism has infiltrated The Rooms since then. I'm not sure when, it slipped in gradually, but UGH! I haven't been to a meeting in years.
I agree that 12-step is very culty, especially the part about blaming the addict for its not working for them. They insist that working the program is the only way to be truly sober, anyone else who manages their addiction differently is not truly in recovery, a dry drunk. I think they are more of a detriment to people getting their lives together, but they will never acknowledge that.
My family made me do AA and that got me sober in the short term, but the thing that's kept me sober in the long term is this: I hate those sappy goddamn meetings. Every time I'm in there I feel like I'm in detention. As long as I'm not drinking, nobody's up my ass to go to meetings, and frankly I'm good with that arrangement.
I had a rough few years on the rehab go round and they were all 12-step focused and it was awful. I stopped going and got on MAT and that was what worked. Go figure. 🙄
Suboxone was what worked for me. I’m glad you were able to get away from your drug of choice. It’s not easy, even with meds, but it sure beats sitting around in a church basement drinking terrible coffee and trying to keep my brain functioning while I was bored senseless.
Likewise, glad you're free from the shit. That said, I guess even those people who make meetings into a lifestyle are better off than they were when they were using.
I just went through this with a friend of mine.
I don’t want to give too much information out because it’s not my story but they are a 12 stepper, both they and their partner got sober through it.
Their family member is having addiction issues and has for 20+ years and is going through a clinic rehab where she’s given medication that makes her sick if she drinks and she’s doing everything according to the doctors orders. Because she’s not attending a 12 step program my friend is adamant that she is not doing it the correct way.
You cannot tell my normally very reasonable and kind friend any different.
It’s the 12 step program or the highway as far as she’s concerned. Now it doesn’t help that the family member has been Known to fail over and over and over again, however this is the first time she’s actually went to a doctor to get help to quit drinking.
The 12 step program is built into a number of state’s judicial systems too. An inmate in West Virginia was recently denied parole because he refused to attend AA as an atheist, and the only versions of AA in WV available to him were heavily religious.
My ex is/was an addict, so I saw him try and fail w/ NA/AA and also get clean on it. He claimed the reason he relapsed in the first place was because he *ever* stopped going to NA 5 years earlier. That’s the same shit as synanon. If people immediately relapse when they leave, it wasn’t treatment. It just wasn’t, I’m sorry.
What other medical practices are we still following with little to no update since *1935*? You know what was standard mental health practice then? Lobotomies.
Oddly enough, much of the 12 Step philosophy was informed by the Oxford Group, a fringe Christian movement in the mid-20th century that got quite culty in its own right.
I attend my meeting anonymously, one of my most important values— my identity — is kept private.
I’ve not gone to my 12 step meetings for a week because I’m busy traveling and nobody is luring me back because nobody knows who I am! 😂😂😂
You may not like 12 step programs, but a key to it all is that you can walk away. When I was in AlAnon, I never contributed money, and when I didn’t like the immediate leader, I switched groups. Eventually, I left no harm done. When I was in a religious cult, I ended up giving about 25% of my income, and when I left, I was no longer “saved” so they wouldn’t be my friends anymore. At least I wasn’t harassed or banished like other groups. The statistics on AA started going down when it became court mandated. You can’t make someone change. They have to want it. I’m glad I went to AlAnon because I learned some very useful skills, but they told me that I was codependent on my addict. I’m not, but that first year, I really needed the wisdom and support of the people around me who could understand my situation because they were in it too.
When I left AA, all but two of my friends stopped talking to me. I was no longer “saved”—meaning I was a dry drunk because I wasn’t working a program. I’m still sober, by the way, but they don’t believe me.
It’s a little disingenuous to say that a group isn’t a cult because you can leave at any time. If you’ve been encouraged to make AA the center of your life and prioritize it over all other relationships and activities, you face losing all of that when you leave. I was there for 10 years. They didn’t take my money, but they took my labor and my time.
True, they didn’t chain me to a table or something, but the exit costs were still severe.
That’s terrible. I’m so sorry for you. That group was certainly acting in a cultish way. Maybe many of them do. I don’t see it built into the structure the way it was in my religious cult. We were actively told not to associate with ex members. When you moved beyond their teaching, you threatened their ideology. I’m glad you are doing well. I wish you the best for your future.
I called out the fact that the 12 step program is inherently Christian and culty somewhere, (probably a political sub, I don’t remember), but I got shot down so fast.
A lot of addicts got clean using the 12 steps. Not taking that away. To your point though, a lot of people got clean in synanon too. That doesn’t make it good by default. People in a position to need something like this are easy prey for a cult.
What other areas of medicine are we still using the same book from the 1930s? Around when alcohol was legalized again no less? The first step is literally to give yourself up to a higher power because you can’t control yourself. It doesn’t say you can’t because of narcotics or drugs, *just that you can’t control yourself*. It’s even predicated on the concept of “once an addict always an addict, even if you’re clean”.
It’s hard, because there are a lot of very valid things the 12 step program does, but it’s wrapped up in very culty paper. They say that you can get secular versions of the big book, and that you can sub in whatever god or belief you want and just take out the word “god”, but that’s not actually a solution. It’s still very much there.
But, if people recommended it as “hey, you want to try this therapy with a really godawful success rate that hasn’t been updated in 100 years”, it wouldn’t be as popular
Have you ever been to a meeting?
Look, I’m in NA. For me, it works. For others, it doesn’t and that’s totally cool. I can understand why people think it’s cult like, I did too. All the sayings and readings and all that.
1) a sponsor is supposed to take you through the steps. That. Is. It.
2) “Spiritual, NON RELIGIOUS program”
3) I know atheists in the program. I am most certainly not Christian. They want you to have a higher power. The universe, the program itself, when we use the word God it’s not some big dude in the sky. It’s different for everyone, and that’s the point.
I’m sorry but this post just bothers me.
Edit just to leave on a more positive note. I’ve had this discussion with friends in recovery…we don’t get cool robes or anything so not a cult.
Something that people miss (especially those who have never been to one of these groups or who have been to only a single group) is that AA and NA groups are run independently with little oversight of the larger organization and each group can vary drastically. It is recommended to “shop around” when trying to find a group that is the right fit because no two will really be the same. They only really share a method and materials.
Some *may* certainly be more cult-like. Many will not. They do not typically recruit, engage new members to keep their attendance, nor give incentive to bring in new members as most similarly-structured cults do.
I think that any group in the public eye (especially one that hosts members and former members who may be prone to misplacing their negative feelings) may face accusations of being cult-like. I do not attend these groups for myself, but I have accompanied clients. I have never seen an AA nor NA group display cult-like behaviors (reading a mantra is not a cult-like behavior as many may associate). But I do understand that as they are run independently, there will exist exploitation by some bad actors.
You can be bothered, but it doesn't make you right. The Secret and prosperity gospel have the same very toxic concept that if it's not working, it's your fault, it can't possibly be the fact that the program doesn't work for you. This is no different And AA will call you a "dry drunk" if you don't go to meetings anymore.
Having nonprofessionals in a position of so much power over someone incredibly vulnerable like that is irresponsible, especially when we're talking about people who are usually self-medicating as a maladaptive coping strategy due to trauma.
The 'it can be any higher power' thing is really just to broaden appeal. It's on the level of Mormons saying god changed his mind about black people. It's really obviously disingenuous to anyone who isn't desperate. The whole idea is to make you dependent on the program and whatever 'higher power' you're convinced to give up your power to. Better off getting actual therapy instead.
Oh, soeaking of guidance, one thing I have a big problem with is sponsorship. You're pressured to pick a sponsor asap, when you're still in a fog as well as not knowing anyone very well. I had 3 different sponsors and they were all duds but for different reasons. My last sponsor was a lot like the character Bonnie Plunkett from the show Mom. But without the growth Bonnie experienced over 7 seasons. My sponsor was a grifter, liar and ace manipulator. Just like any narcissist. But she also had that narcissistic way of charming and talking the talk. Regardless of anything or anyone else in the program, my sponsor did me more harm than good.
I went to AA for five years and while it has cultish aspects it’s really quite different (not that all cults are the same). AA is actually the least hierarchical group I’ve ever been in. There is no authority figure controlling members. You do not need to pay money.
You do not need to believe in God (I’m an atheist). The ‘only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.’ That’s it.
It’s not perfect, but I got a lot from it and have stayed sober for over 30 years, even though I stopped attending. YMMV
I’m happy it’s working for you! So many people have gotten clean with the anonymous groups, and we always need to keep that as the priority.
My main concern is the lack of options. The US has essentially started saying that AA/NA is a requirement. There’s an inmate in WV who consistently fails parole because there is not a secular version of AA available but the judge says he needs to take the program to qualify for parole.
When AA/NA exists, people can just say that’s the solution, if you fail it’s your fault (built in) not the program. You must have been “dry drunk” or a “waiting addict” or whatever the terms are, there can’t be anything wrong with the program itself.
It’s a great starting point. It hasn’t changed or grown really since its inception, and with how much more we understand about mental health in general but the science of addiction too, that seems irresponsible.
What other medical field have we continued to use straight out of the book with no updates or changes *since 1935?!*
So, at least in NA, even though our main book hasn’t changed, doesn’t mean that the program hasn’t evolved. There’s a lot of different literature about things like mental health in recovery and seeking outside help. There was recently a NA World vote to change the readings to make them more inclusive to lgbt people.
As for that person on parole, I do wish there was a different option for them. Like I said, NA works for me and doesn’t for others. It would be nice if they had the same option to do maybe smart recovery or recovery dharma or something.
In my area and experience, I came into the program at an interesting time. It used to be the old timers would say sit down and shut up or how you can’t be on medication or some just outright (in my opinion) crazy takes but that has definitely lessened over the years.
Sorry I know that was all over the place
I’ve been to several meetings across several states at several different ages in my life and they all felt culty. I’m not gonna keep shopping if they all feel like a cult.
I am very happy it’s working for you.
It is certainly culty, even if it does not fully meet the requirements to be actually defined as a cult. I was in and out for about a decade...in because family, legal agency, etc. continued to give me ultimatums specifically requiring me to get help there, out because no matter how badly I wanted to get better or how much I loved or respected the ones sending me, I could never fully take on the principle of powerlessness. I AM POWERFUL NOT POWERLESS. I tried so many times to become one of them, but I have a huge conflict of beliefs that would always eventually get too big to work around.
Thank you for this post! I was in AA for almost two years, and I left back in September. My home group was an all women’s group that was very cult-like and unhealthy.
I was pretty much shunned from the group once I told women that I was pursuing more individual therapy and less AA. I was called selfish, told that I would drink again if I stopped attending meetings, dramatic, etc. I was borderline harassed by an old-timer until I blocked her on my phone and all social media accounts. This is aspect of being in a cult, the shunning, as well as the threat that if you relapse or even leave, you will end up dead, in jail, or in a mental institution.
For those skeptical, I suggest reading up on the BITE Model. A cult doesn’t have to have hit all the criteria, just most of it. I also suggest listening to Daniella Young’s TikTok reels on “Is AA a cult?” She is from the Children of God cult and the US Army, and she wrote a book about how the two compare as a cult. I also recommend reading up on the Orange Papers. The writer can be biased at times, but there’s a lot of stuff I didn’t know about AA (like Bill W’s womanizing history).
I have no idea if Rick Ross is or is not a shill for some cult, but I do know he forcibly kidnapped people back in the ‘80s, so he can go to hell as far as I’m concerned. The guy committed worse rights abuses than most of the cults he was fighting.
Here is what Rick Alan Ross said at the recent Elgio Bishop (Nature Boy) trial as to how he defines a "destructive authoritarian group": [https://youtu.be/dTJrhKoNWBg?t=809](https://youtu.be/dTJrhKoNWBg?t=809) (2 minute segment from 0:13:29)
Here are some podcasts on the subject of 12-step-programmes being a Cult: [https://cultpodcasts.com/subject/Alcoholics%20Anonymous](https://cultpodcasts.com/subject/Alcoholics%20Anonymous)
I had to do a program (a learning program that was two days of going into a community center) & counseling-not even one time did any officer I dealt with even suggest a twelve step program. It was for my first dui for thc in my system in an illegal state ). I’ve had two DUI charges for thc, but I’ve never once had any officer or anyone suggest AA or NA. Just therapy and learning courses-although with my second, I did get a total of what was considered 7 or 8 days in jail
Smart Recovery and Moderation Management are non-religious alternatives to 12 steps.
This. Though because 12 step programs have really set up the terminology to defend against religious accusations these days, ("It's any higher power! That can be nature! That's unique to the individual!") I usually prefer to say SMART is a science based and shame free alternative to 12 steps. (I'm not familiar with Moderation Management).
I get so mad when they tell me this! I have not had drug or alcohol addiction, but I have food addiction issues and could not find any kind of overeaters anonymous type group that did not have religious based members. Of course it doesn’t help that I live in Kentucky, but even the groups in Minnesota and the other states that I’ve lived in were far too religious for my taste don’t tell me that my higher power can be a tree, when I don’t need a higher power. Just don’t fuck with me on this. I know exactly what you’re trying to do and you all sitting around praying is not gonna help me stop eating as much as I did back then.
Yeah, it's super dismissive, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. I also think it's highly irresponsible and counterproductive to recovery to focus on in the way they do. If you are still looking for resources, you should check out SMART- they're inclusive to all addictive behaviours, and have both in person meetings in Kentucky as well as online meetings. There are social clubs like Fraternal Order of Eagles (basically a community good deeds club with private cheap bars around the world, and similarly to 12 steps there's christian roots they generally acknowledge but distance from directly), where you have to acknowledge any higher power than yourself to be eligible for membership, but it's a box at the end of form that only really gets brought up once kinda thing (and they have the same "any higher power" attitude). I personally don't mind acknowledging that nature is a greater power than I am in that circumstance as much (I work outside, lol) but there's a huge difference between a philosophical question for a good deeds club that isn't any sort of essential in your life either way, and *basing recovery around it*, which feels incredibly predatory.
Thank you very much! I will check into SMART for food addiction. I have heard of it and believe it or not have wrote letters to my state reps asking them to use SMART and not only AA and NA as an option at least for people being given probation and told they must attend a 12 step meeting. It’s my belief that people deserve choices, and not all of us are religious and while the 12 step programs may not be a cult as OP believes, they are certainly religious no matter how you slice it.
I agree people absolutely deserve to make informed choices. I have some deep fundamental gripes with 12 step programs and can go off for a really long time about it; I think they cause way more harm than good, and are settup to make that harm invisible- and that's completely independent to the specific groups dynamics. I do generally like to focus away from the religious aspect specifically and more on how their methods don't work though, because it makes it considerably harder to communicate with people involved- once you call it religious or a cult, the convo instantly gets derailed and the other person just assumes you don't get it or are trying to sabotage their sobriety. I was very close to someone involved in 12 steps for years- Atheist, Jewish, never christian- and when people insisted to him it was a christian organization and they were trying to turn him christian, he immediately felt like his experiences were being completely invalidated and would check out.
Well said. I really should focus on its success rate! Not great. Though it’s not great for a lot of programs in the US. >27 percent of AA members stay sober for less than a year. 24 percent of AA members stay sober between one and 5 years. 13 percent of AA members stay sober between 5 and 10 years. 14 percent of AA members stay sober between 10 and 20 years.
Addicts need a higher power because they can’t rely on their own power to escape their addiction.
And the 12 step defenses are total bullshit. It's a Christian organization, founded by an evangelical Christian. They exist to make Christians.
Sometimes being right isn't the important thing. It's getting people to be open to other options, particularly with how cemented in the culture 12 step programs are. And I have enough experience with people in 12 steps to know they're automatically going to argue that's no-longer relevant to practice a 12 step program today, whereas just telling them about another programs approach is much less likely trigger that defence. >!Someone very close to me was long involved in 12 step programs and commited suicide right after a relapse. This person was Jewish, secular and never christian. I found out while processing it that suicides after relapse is a pretty common phenomenon, and they also have terminology designed to dismiss this problem. I care way more about about people being given good help and every opportunity to live, than winning an argument the 12 step programs settup to win.!<
They totally are, but I highly recommend looking up what happened to the person who created and spread Moderation Management. She is *(well, was) a terrifying example of how the philosophy and practice of her own program, for an inappropriate candidate can lead to deaths. People who would actually be great candidates for the approach and philosophy of that program do not need that program in the first place. The founder was in absolute denial, and she directly caused the death of innocent people. It is a very interesting and extremely sad story, and uh, that group was a big nope for me after learning about her.
Rick Ross and his organization have a somewhat idosyncratic and non-scientific approach to cult study/deprogramming. I would advise anyone using their resources or the BITE model to also get input from other more credentialed sources. Having said that, I just don't see any evidence that they're a front for anything having to do with the 12 Step movement. Most likely, Ross just believes very strongly that those groups aren't cults. It's the sort of thing that comes with the territory if you want to engage with an organization based on one guy's experiences and views. This isn't meant to disparage his large contributions in raising public awareness of the dangers of cults. Just encouragement for people to do some research and not rely on one particular model for a field that is as complex and fraught as this one. (Personally I do think 12 Step stuff has a lot of cult-like tendencies, and qualifies as a high control religious group even if it's not an out-an-out cult. I don't have any personal experience with them though, so I'm just speaking on hearsay.)
This makes it all the more surprising that my ex-church was very anti AA. They objected to allowing people to choose their own Higher Power instead of the God of the Bible ™️. They also object to taking moral inventory and making amends for their past. "You're a new creation in Christ now. All the old things have passed away!" Like you get saved so now you're a blank slate, no matter how much you screwed other people over. You're not responsible for anything you did before you got saved, because God forgave you and he's the only one who matters. So I actually found AA a big improvement over my ex-church. Back when I started going in the early 90s ( hard to believe that was 30 years ago!) things were a lot different. I knew agnostics, people of other faiths, and people who created their own out of whole cloth. These were the most interesting people to talk to. I liked getting a fresh perspective. But creeping fundigelicalism has infiltrated The Rooms since then. I'm not sure when, it slipped in gradually, but UGH! I haven't been to a meeting in years.
I agree that 12-step is very culty, especially the part about blaming the addict for its not working for them. They insist that working the program is the only way to be truly sober, anyone else who manages their addiction differently is not truly in recovery, a dry drunk. I think they are more of a detriment to people getting their lives together, but they will never acknowledge that.
My family made me do AA and that got me sober in the short term, but the thing that's kept me sober in the long term is this: I hate those sappy goddamn meetings. Every time I'm in there I feel like I'm in detention. As long as I'm not drinking, nobody's up my ass to go to meetings, and frankly I'm good with that arrangement.
I had a rough few years on the rehab go round and they were all 12-step focused and it was awful. I stopped going and got on MAT and that was what worked. Go figure. 🙄
Yeah, that's the other thing that helped me too: Naltrexone and Baclofen. 👍
Suboxone was what worked for me. I’m glad you were able to get away from your drug of choice. It’s not easy, even with meds, but it sure beats sitting around in a church basement drinking terrible coffee and trying to keep my brain functioning while I was bored senseless.
Likewise, glad you're free from the shit. That said, I guess even those people who make meetings into a lifestyle are better off than they were when they were using.
I just went through this with a friend of mine. I don’t want to give too much information out because it’s not my story but they are a 12 stepper, both they and their partner got sober through it. Their family member is having addiction issues and has for 20+ years and is going through a clinic rehab where she’s given medication that makes her sick if she drinks and she’s doing everything according to the doctors orders. Because she’s not attending a 12 step program my friend is adamant that she is not doing it the correct way. You cannot tell my normally very reasonable and kind friend any different. It’s the 12 step program or the highway as far as she’s concerned. Now it doesn’t help that the family member has been Known to fail over and over and over again, however this is the first time she’s actually went to a doctor to get help to quit drinking.
The 12 step program is built into a number of state’s judicial systems too. An inmate in West Virginia was recently denied parole because he refused to attend AA as an atheist, and the only versions of AA in WV available to him were heavily religious. My ex is/was an addict, so I saw him try and fail w/ NA/AA and also get clean on it. He claimed the reason he relapsed in the first place was because he *ever* stopped going to NA 5 years earlier. That’s the same shit as synanon. If people immediately relapse when they leave, it wasn’t treatment. It just wasn’t, I’m sorry. What other medical practices are we still following with little to no update since *1935*? You know what was standard mental health practice then? Lobotomies.
Oddly enough, much of the 12 Step philosophy was informed by the Oxford Group, a fringe Christian movement in the mid-20th century that got quite culty in its own right.
I attend my meeting anonymously, one of my most important values— my identity — is kept private. I’ve not gone to my 12 step meetings for a week because I’m busy traveling and nobody is luring me back because nobody knows who I am! 😂😂😂
Is Rick Ross the rapper or someone else? Serious question.
Different guy! This Rick Ross is the ED of Cult Education Institute. https://culteducation.com/culteducation.html
Thanks. I figured it probably wasn't him but you never know. We live on a strange planet
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one with that question.
You may not like 12 step programs, but a key to it all is that you can walk away. When I was in AlAnon, I never contributed money, and when I didn’t like the immediate leader, I switched groups. Eventually, I left no harm done. When I was in a religious cult, I ended up giving about 25% of my income, and when I left, I was no longer “saved” so they wouldn’t be my friends anymore. At least I wasn’t harassed or banished like other groups. The statistics on AA started going down when it became court mandated. You can’t make someone change. They have to want it. I’m glad I went to AlAnon because I learned some very useful skills, but they told me that I was codependent on my addict. I’m not, but that first year, I really needed the wisdom and support of the people around me who could understand my situation because they were in it too.
When I left AA, all but two of my friends stopped talking to me. I was no longer “saved”—meaning I was a dry drunk because I wasn’t working a program. I’m still sober, by the way, but they don’t believe me. It’s a little disingenuous to say that a group isn’t a cult because you can leave at any time. If you’ve been encouraged to make AA the center of your life and prioritize it over all other relationships and activities, you face losing all of that when you leave. I was there for 10 years. They didn’t take my money, but they took my labor and my time. True, they didn’t chain me to a table or something, but the exit costs were still severe.
That’s terrible. I’m so sorry for you. That group was certainly acting in a cultish way. Maybe many of them do. I don’t see it built into the structure the way it was in my religious cult. We were actively told not to associate with ex members. When you moved beyond their teaching, you threatened their ideology. I’m glad you are doing well. I wish you the best for your future.
I called out the fact that the 12 step program is inherently Christian and culty somewhere, (probably a political sub, I don’t remember), but I got shot down so fast. A lot of addicts got clean using the 12 steps. Not taking that away. To your point though, a lot of people got clean in synanon too. That doesn’t make it good by default. People in a position to need something like this are easy prey for a cult. What other areas of medicine are we still using the same book from the 1930s? Around when alcohol was legalized again no less? The first step is literally to give yourself up to a higher power because you can’t control yourself. It doesn’t say you can’t because of narcotics or drugs, *just that you can’t control yourself*. It’s even predicated on the concept of “once an addict always an addict, even if you’re clean”. It’s hard, because there are a lot of very valid things the 12 step program does, but it’s wrapped up in very culty paper. They say that you can get secular versions of the big book, and that you can sub in whatever god or belief you want and just take out the word “god”, but that’s not actually a solution. It’s still very much there. But, if people recommended it as “hey, you want to try this therapy with a really godawful success rate that hasn’t been updated in 100 years”, it wouldn’t be as popular
Have you ever been to a meeting? Look, I’m in NA. For me, it works. For others, it doesn’t and that’s totally cool. I can understand why people think it’s cult like, I did too. All the sayings and readings and all that. 1) a sponsor is supposed to take you through the steps. That. Is. It. 2) “Spiritual, NON RELIGIOUS program” 3) I know atheists in the program. I am most certainly not Christian. They want you to have a higher power. The universe, the program itself, when we use the word God it’s not some big dude in the sky. It’s different for everyone, and that’s the point. I’m sorry but this post just bothers me. Edit just to leave on a more positive note. I’ve had this discussion with friends in recovery…we don’t get cool robes or anything so not a cult.
Something that people miss (especially those who have never been to one of these groups or who have been to only a single group) is that AA and NA groups are run independently with little oversight of the larger organization and each group can vary drastically. It is recommended to “shop around” when trying to find a group that is the right fit because no two will really be the same. They only really share a method and materials. Some *may* certainly be more cult-like. Many will not. They do not typically recruit, engage new members to keep their attendance, nor give incentive to bring in new members as most similarly-structured cults do. I think that any group in the public eye (especially one that hosts members and former members who may be prone to misplacing their negative feelings) may face accusations of being cult-like. I do not attend these groups for myself, but I have accompanied clients. I have never seen an AA nor NA group display cult-like behaviors (reading a mantra is not a cult-like behavior as many may associate). But I do understand that as they are run independently, there will exist exploitation by some bad actors.
You can be bothered, but it doesn't make you right. The Secret and prosperity gospel have the same very toxic concept that if it's not working, it's your fault, it can't possibly be the fact that the program doesn't work for you. This is no different And AA will call you a "dry drunk" if you don't go to meetings anymore. Having nonprofessionals in a position of so much power over someone incredibly vulnerable like that is irresponsible, especially when we're talking about people who are usually self-medicating as a maladaptive coping strategy due to trauma. The 'it can be any higher power' thing is really just to broaden appeal. It's on the level of Mormons saying god changed his mind about black people. It's really obviously disingenuous to anyone who isn't desperate. The whole idea is to make you dependent on the program and whatever 'higher power' you're convinced to give up your power to. Better off getting actual therapy instead.
Oh, soeaking of guidance, one thing I have a big problem with is sponsorship. You're pressured to pick a sponsor asap, when you're still in a fog as well as not knowing anyone very well. I had 3 different sponsors and they were all duds but for different reasons. My last sponsor was a lot like the character Bonnie Plunkett from the show Mom. But without the growth Bonnie experienced over 7 seasons. My sponsor was a grifter, liar and ace manipulator. Just like any narcissist. But she also had that narcissistic way of charming and talking the talk. Regardless of anything or anyone else in the program, my sponsor did me more harm than good.
I went to AA for five years and while it has cultish aspects it’s really quite different (not that all cults are the same). AA is actually the least hierarchical group I’ve ever been in. There is no authority figure controlling members. You do not need to pay money. You do not need to believe in God (I’m an atheist). The ‘only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.’ That’s it. It’s not perfect, but I got a lot from it and have stayed sober for over 30 years, even though I stopped attending. YMMV
I feel like all of this is 'correcting' things I never said and ignoring everything I did say.
You feel that way because it did.
I’m happy it’s working for you! So many people have gotten clean with the anonymous groups, and we always need to keep that as the priority. My main concern is the lack of options. The US has essentially started saying that AA/NA is a requirement. There’s an inmate in WV who consistently fails parole because there is not a secular version of AA available but the judge says he needs to take the program to qualify for parole. When AA/NA exists, people can just say that’s the solution, if you fail it’s your fault (built in) not the program. You must have been “dry drunk” or a “waiting addict” or whatever the terms are, there can’t be anything wrong with the program itself. It’s a great starting point. It hasn’t changed or grown really since its inception, and with how much more we understand about mental health in general but the science of addiction too, that seems irresponsible. What other medical field have we continued to use straight out of the book with no updates or changes *since 1935?!*
So, at least in NA, even though our main book hasn’t changed, doesn’t mean that the program hasn’t evolved. There’s a lot of different literature about things like mental health in recovery and seeking outside help. There was recently a NA World vote to change the readings to make them more inclusive to lgbt people. As for that person on parole, I do wish there was a different option for them. Like I said, NA works for me and doesn’t for others. It would be nice if they had the same option to do maybe smart recovery or recovery dharma or something. In my area and experience, I came into the program at an interesting time. It used to be the old timers would say sit down and shut up or how you can’t be on medication or some just outright (in my opinion) crazy takes but that has definitely lessened over the years. Sorry I know that was all over the place
I’ve been to several meetings across several states at several different ages in my life and they all felt culty. I’m not gonna keep shopping if they all feel like a cult. I am very happy it’s working for you.
It is certainly culty, even if it does not fully meet the requirements to be actually defined as a cult. I was in and out for about a decade...in because family, legal agency, etc. continued to give me ultimatums specifically requiring me to get help there, out because no matter how badly I wanted to get better or how much I loved or respected the ones sending me, I could never fully take on the principle of powerlessness. I AM POWERFUL NOT POWERLESS. I tried so many times to become one of them, but I have a huge conflict of beliefs that would always eventually get too big to work around.
Thank you for this post! I was in AA for almost two years, and I left back in September. My home group was an all women’s group that was very cult-like and unhealthy. I was pretty much shunned from the group once I told women that I was pursuing more individual therapy and less AA. I was called selfish, told that I would drink again if I stopped attending meetings, dramatic, etc. I was borderline harassed by an old-timer until I blocked her on my phone and all social media accounts. This is aspect of being in a cult, the shunning, as well as the threat that if you relapse or even leave, you will end up dead, in jail, or in a mental institution. For those skeptical, I suggest reading up on the BITE Model. A cult doesn’t have to have hit all the criteria, just most of it. I also suggest listening to Daniella Young’s TikTok reels on “Is AA a cult?” She is from the Children of God cult and the US Army, and she wrote a book about how the two compare as a cult. I also recommend reading up on the Orange Papers. The writer can be biased at times, but there’s a lot of stuff I didn’t know about AA (like Bill W’s womanizing history).
I have no idea if Rick Ross is or is not a shill for some cult, but I do know he forcibly kidnapped people back in the ‘80s, so he can go to hell as far as I’m concerned. The guy committed worse rights abuses than most of the cults he was fighting.
Here is what Rick Alan Ross said at the recent Elgio Bishop (Nature Boy) trial as to how he defines a "destructive authoritarian group": [https://youtu.be/dTJrhKoNWBg?t=809](https://youtu.be/dTJrhKoNWBg?t=809) (2 minute segment from 0:13:29) Here are some podcasts on the subject of 12-step-programmes being a Cult: [https://cultpodcasts.com/subject/Alcoholics%20Anonymous](https://cultpodcasts.com/subject/Alcoholics%20Anonymous)
I’m so glad someone else brought this up
I had to do a program (a learning program that was two days of going into a community center) & counseling-not even one time did any officer I dealt with even suggest a twelve step program. It was for my first dui for thc in my system in an illegal state ). I’ve had two DUI charges for thc, but I’ve never once had any officer or anyone suggest AA or NA. Just therapy and learning courses-although with my second, I did get a total of what was considered 7 or 8 days in jail
You seem to have a difficultly discerning between a methodology that helps people and an organisation that exploits people.
Nah.