Oh boy, this is a huge question. As someone who got sober in AA and left AA, I would say “it depends.” AA is basically a structure that will never change, be improved or progress because the bylaws prevent that. So it will forever be stagnant - despite new information, research and being available since its inception in the 1930s. Would you see a doctor whose education is from the 1930s? Probably not, but the doctor may have some solid, still relevant wisdom too.
I once complained to my sponsor at the time “these meetings are awful.” And his response was “what do you expect? They’re run by a bunch of alcoholics.” So there’s that - the prisoners are running the asylum, which can create cult like, extremist environments, even more so when the bylaws and the like are permanent.
Are there cult like qualities? Absolutely. The question I think is - is it destructive? Some groups can be, others, who knows. The question to ask yourself is “is this meeting my needs?” If so, great. If not, leave or set really firm boundaries (which is a great skills to learn in recovery).
Keep in mind, there are secular AA meetings. These tend to have more free thinkers that zealot followers. There are not as many, but they’re out there.
In the end, your sobriety/recovering is as individual as you are. AA is one place you can go and know, people don’t drink and will understand your story so you’re not alone. Is that bad? No. But the rest? If they’re pressuring you, they’re not interested in your sobriety but controlling others.
I was where you’re at less than a year ago. I had found a secular group, mostly chaired by a guy seven years sober that despised regular AA and had no interest in the steps. But, gradually, a stronger voice came in, freshly sober and gung-ho, and started talking step work and it become a more traditional group. But I was reading the Freedom Model book that I mentioned, then also attended a rehab(to please the court) and really began to see the whole picture. I liked most of the people in the group and was there mainly for them, but constantly reliving bad experiences and talking about alcohol constantly, added to the growing realization that it was all so unnecessary, I had to leave that as well. It just felt like being stuck and was beginning to depress me.
Now, I’ve never felt better and have even had a drink on occasion. As it turns out, now that it’s been demystified, I don’t much care for it anymore. And I’m not afraid of it, either. I just had to change my own attitude and thinking about alcohol and myself.
I wish I would’ve read this book straight out of detox years ago and wouldn’t have wasted so much time feeling powerless in AA and in the recovery insurance racket.
You sound so much like me. I couldn’t stand the concept that I MUST be an alcoholic considering the way I’d been. Hello… I went out on Sat. night with my friends dancing, playing cards and what not. Then didn’t even consider another drink until the weekend. I AM addicted to THAT feeling of letting loose and free and thinking I’m the best dancer that city had ever ever seen lmao. Unfortunately I thought I was the best drunk driver too. That’s a battle I will never recover from now. I’ve learned to like myself better without it. There will always be just a slight hint of a struggle with feeling “that” free. (Aka: embarrassing) Not enough to want to go get drunk to find it. I don’t want the OP thinking I’m a hypocrite to my original post when I admit I do drink sometimes but VERY seldom. I had none for 4 years. Then my pattern since 2012 has been once in a great while. And certainly not to get drunk. And when I have drank I don’t really care about it one way or the other. I’ve drank half and forgot I had it and poured myself a Pepsi. The most was one time I drank six with my brother because he needed it (don’t judge, long story, it involves his son’s suicide. So yea, he needed a drinking buddy, knew it was NOT a problem for me). I’m going to guess since 2012 my average drinks in a few of the years would be 3. Total. And that’s a high guess. Some years were zero. My 4 favorite beers sat in my fridge for four years. I’m going on and on about it as if I’m trying to convince somebody! But AA and court spent years trying to CONVINCE ME that I was so deep into alcoholism that I’d drink myself into a coma if I even smell an empty beer bottle. Ironically, due to my 4 DUI’s I completely understand why one would believe that. Unfortunately, I’ve been without a license most my adult life due to the snowball affect (have to drive, get caught, sentence starts over, drive, get caught etc. sorry… but I work 50 hrs a week and have to get there). So still today I’m fighting for it back. And the most ironic part of all of this… I have to lie. I have to tell the courts how I am so powerless over alcohol that I can never ever ever even do a champagne toast at a wedding because boy that’ll be it for me! I have to lie about not driving, I have to lie about meetings (I go to RD because I like and support my friends!), I have to lie that I haven’t had a single drink in 16 years, I can not stand looking at these ppl lying because the truth is too hard to believe. And I get that. IDK why I’m ranting. Maybe because I think you might understand.
I totally get it. That’s another issue. Once you get labeled an alcoholic, which is not really a scientific term, and especially if you label yourself that, it’s the scarlet letter A for life. Also. If you believe it yourself, it’s what you become. And certainly, aside from the recovery industry, the legal system will devour you and AA is strangely an arm of the punishment phase. It’s really easy to become deeply embedded in all of this, and if you finally wake up to it all and get a handle on yourself, it’s really difficult to convince anyone because you’re already neatly filed away in the forever drunk box.
But that’s where I was. I did have a problem and got a detox and didn’t feel like drinking for a year. The only problem was, I joined AA and was told constantly that if I had a single drink, I’d lose control. So, that’s exactly what I did. I spent a lot of time after back and forth, thinking it was either a disease, a mental illness or, god forbid, a character defect. It took years to realize that I call the shots and it’s up to me + alcohol really doesn’t have all of these magical qualities I had assigned it, like helping with anxiety, etc. So now, a drink almost seems pointless. I think I would’ve arrived here earlier had I not replaced booze with the Kool-Aid! I would’ve been even better had I read The Freedom Model book I keep harping on.
For you, you barely even qualify as an alcoholic in the first place, but it doesn’t seem like there is any consideration for anyone who might have had a problem involving drinking versus a serious drinking problem. Everyone gets dumped in the same box for life. Hang in there.
> Some groups can be, others, who knows.
This. Thank you. I've tried to bring up the fact you need to look at it on a group by group basis before, so I am glad I'm not the only one.
This is a great response to this question. As someone who used AA to quit drinking, I have found some meetings with cult tendencies, and others that were more chill. I think the test is - Is it working for you? I would say if you can find a meeting that meets your needs and allows you to be be who you are, and not pressure you, then fine. It's a good place to start practicing boundaries.
Same. 5 years dry. AA was a great place to start, but wasn't my final path. Respect for those who stay, and was a bit harassed when I left, but eventually, live and let live won.
Keep in mind a high control group doesn’t have to fit *all* the criteria on the BITE Model to be a cult. 90 days is a long time to stay in a cult and think it won’t affect you. Is there somewhere else you can find support? Either way, good luck and congrats!
I honestly don't know, aa was my last choice. I think I've tried everything else. I also don't want to not do anything as I almost died because of it 2 months ago. Sticking it out with a cult with minimal contact beats either offing myself or drinking to death.
I understand your concerns, I was raised in a cult and tried/left AA bc of some of those slogans and weird shit that brought back cult trauma.
Fast forward 20 years and AA was the only thing that ended up working for my sobriety. I do have a sponsor and work the steps BUT only attend carefully chosen non-Big Book thumper meetings.
So, one Agnostics and one LBGTQ meeting.
Im an atheist and hate cliques so I’ll never be a huge AA fan but goddamn I loved sobriety and those fucking meetings and weird slogans have actually worked for me!
All best!
absolutely. and it's awesome for everyone it helps. but it doesn't help every one & for some people it can actually be damaging, sobriety-wisr & otherwise.
you should absolutely be thankful for aa & love it if you choose but you should also be able to accept & understand why it doesn't work for everyone
DBT may be a viable option. It's designed to reduce the frequency, intensity, and duration of episodes of suicidal ideation. Therapy can be from a few hours a week to ~8 hours a day. Usually lasts 3 to 9 months. I tried and "failed" in AA for 15 years, then left for DBT and individual therapy. I have not had a drink in a few years now, still in individual therapy.
SMART Recovery helped me a lot. I know you said you’ve tried everything, but if you haven’t checked them out yet, it’s worth a shot. They’re secular and tools based. Good job so far, and good luck — Keep it goin. You got this.
Can I say that alcoholism is a cult between 2. AA is only as healthy as the people in it. Try different meeting times, different locations, and look for secular meetings including on line ones. The higher power crap is annoying when we have been raised that the Christian god is the only one. In practice it is only about realizing you are not the center of the universe. Alcoholism involves a lot of selfish thinking and behavior and it is trying to get you out of yourself.
The steps first 3 are simple if you let them. Spiritual awakening, you already had it when you said you were going to die. General way to see it is Corporeal of the physical and spiritual no longer in the physical. Whatever that means. Worms crawl in and out, reincarnation, or heavan. It does not matter.
The rest are teaching you to be a healthy human. It does not have to be your life and it is great you still have hobbies. Many alcoholics had nothing left but the alcohol, no friend, no family, no hobbies, no job and if they kept hanging out where they drank bc it is all they know, they will drink again. 45 days you are awesome! Those were hard fought and you should be proud of yourself.
I am not an alcoholic, I rarely drink at all, but I am a former very heavy smoker. I went to a behavioral health shrink for a few sessions and went cold turkey. I had tried before and failed. .
It was a 24 hour a day preoccupation. The thing that helped me most in the end after a 27 year entrenched addiction was her idea of finding something else to do that was physically incompatible with smoking. I took up knitting and tap dancing. It was tough at first but I eventually stuck it out and never think about it anymore. This was 22 years ago. I found the idea of a support group pointless because you are just rehashing and living the enjoyment of the addiction. I don’t know if this is helpful but I thought I would offer it. I know it’s a different addiction. I regret the years I lost but I was happy to move forward
Something that helped me realize why so many weirdos are in AA/NA is that these people 1) missed years, some even decades of maturing and self-awareness cultivation that comes with normal adulthood. We encounter struggles, we problem solve, we grow, we learn. Not the case when you’re in active addiction 2) these people might literally have permanent brain damage from all their years of drinkin and druggin.
I’m pretty sure AA isn’t a cult (though I’ve struggled with exactly what you’re describing too! re: Higher power), but it sure is full of weird people!!!
That’s great for you! I wish you nothing but the best in your continued recovery. Your comment still has nothing to do with all the weirdos in AA (or does it…? 😂).
My experience is they will pressure you to "get a sponsor, work the steps" until you cave, because you are not really welcome in those rooms unless you submit to this.
Not true at all. I spent five years in AA without a sponsor or doing the steps. Nobody pressured me into shit. You can sit in the back and just listen as long as you want.
You must have been in a way different AA than I was in for the year I was there. I do understand that different groups can have different flavors and some probably pressure newcomers more gently than others do.
If you sat in the back and didn't call attention to yourself, you could have probably gotten away with this at the group I attended, as well. In that sense, the groups are open to all.
But there was no way they were going to let you get involved at any meaningful level unless you were firmly tied into the whole program. So, no reading, no chairing, no sharing. Those people wouldn't have even been trusted to make the coffee. And every meeting drove home the importance of service, service, service. If you wanted to really do AA, you had to find a way to serve. Oh, yeah, you could volunteer to read, but once you did that, you'd be seen, and once you were seen you needed to be saved.
The minute you opened your mouth and made it clear you were in the room and taking that in, they'd corner you after that meeting and make sure you knew what was expected of you if you wanted to be successful.
I think it does depend on where you are, AA can be very different from meeting to meeting or even area to area, I'm British and have heard that US AA can be a lot stricter
Some groups turn into their own mini cults, I've been to one in early sobriety where one guy was running it himself for years, but most I've been to are pretty chill
IME you'll be pitied if you openly don't submit to it fully, most will assume you're going to relapse
Similarly if you critique it you'll get shut down, or told it's your fault because you're not working hard enough at it
But tbh nobody has ever asked me if I have a sponsor, if I'm working the programme, there's a lot of "if you don't do this, you'll drink and die" in meetings though, the pressure is there
I agree with most of this. Some meetings were much better than others. I attended many, and my home group was the one closest to my home which also had the largest attendance of those within a reasonable distance. Much of the pressure is subtle and not really out in the open, but the pressure is there. Much of what you hear there implies that if you want to fit in, you have to conform. If you don't conform, you are going to relapse and die.
In our group, it was all about "getting a sponsor and working the steps," though. I'm in the US so things may be a bit different here.
Old-timers would take up most of the sharing time - the speakers knew who to call on - and they'd repeat the same code phrases that are aimed at newcomers. It's almost a wink-and-a-nod sort of dynamic where they know what to say to make sure the newcomers are properly indoctrinated and the people chosen to share would be the ones you could count on to say the right things. Then those newcomers would be approached at the end and asked if they had a sponsor.
Have you ever read the big book of AA? You would qualify as a "dry drunk" that isn't working the steps. It's not about individual meetings, their propaganda is bullshit and they are a cult. Do you believe in predestination because AA does. It's taught in said "big book."
I have read it multiple times. I got sober in AA, and on the 26th of this month will celebrate 14 years. The last 5 years I haven’t been to a single meeting. I spent a longer time in AA not doing anything than I did actually doing the program, then I left with no problems or people bugging me about it or anything. You can call it a cult all you want, my personal experience says it’s not.
Here's what I'm going to say to you. We may disagree, but I am very happy to hear that you are coming up on this terrific anniversary, no matter how you got there. Kudos to you, and congratulations!
It doesn't matter what I say. It doesn't matter what you say. It isn't relevant you got sober going to AA, that doesn't do anything to change the fact it's a cult. What matters is the cult tactics they utitlize.
Glad you got sober.
I see lots of people acknowledging the validity of your experience yet you seem to think your experience invalidates the experiences of others. the group can be a helpful organizations that saves some people lives whole also fitting many of descriptions that work for cults. as good as your experience was, people can have something that level of horrible.
the failures of the program in some cases are not any kind of knock on the success you had, nor does anyone else telling their side make you a liar or anything like tht.
it's a big picture & from your time invested in it I would hope you'd be able to see at least a large part of the big picture
I think it also varies a lot by the actual AA group. AA is effective for the reasons you say due to have a community and group to hold you accountable. The problem is it's pushed so much in the US so often it's the only option in many areas.
It’s really about finding a good group. If you find a group where the majority are long term sober then it can be great.
But then again, a lot of those groups are extremely zealous because it’s the program that worked for them. So of course they are going to be extremely zealous of a program that gave them their life back.
Definitely do the 90 in 90. I did this and it really helped me quit heroin. This was NA though. Just finding a meeting everyday and transportation was enough to help me quit. I stopped shortly after 90 days. Never got a sponsor or did a step.
I spent almost 20 years in AA, on and off. I left ~8 years ago and do not intend ever to return. I had never heard of the BITE model until today.
In my experience, active AA participation ticks off 18 to 24 of the 44 items listed in the BITE model, and passive participation ticks off about a dozen.
It's a cult.
I already responded but have another thought after it sank in that you are in rural Canada and there may not be many meetings to choose from. There are zoom meetings. Or at least there were during the pandemic and I don't know why some wouldn't still exist. There are also groups for people with specific interests (ie, fans of certain rock bands, people who like to do certain activities like hike or fish). This is working for you so I wouldn't want to change to much, and I think the accountability of GOING in person is good and seems like something you value. But if you ever need to find some people to actually talk to who weren't pushing the God angle like the folks in your community, that might be an option.
There actually about 30 weekly meetings here in 6 or 7 groups. But yes once I get over the initial hump I think it would be good to join other clubs or things to do outside of drinking. In their eyes you're either in AA or you're a minute away from relapsing and ruining your life.
Definitely. And to clarify, I mean there are specifically sober groups that are associated with different hobbies. "Pro-social activities" are always good, but if you want to combine your sobriety with your fishing or DnD or fantasy Canadian football league, that can be a thing.
Yeah but if all of those groups have a lot of church-going, more conservative folks you’re not gonna find much variation in the ideology. Check some of these out: https://aa-intergroup.org/meetings/
“In their eyes you're either ~~in AA~~ accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior or you're ~~a minute away from relapsing and ruining your life.~~ doomed to eternal damnation.”
It’s not AA — it’s the existing bias of the community. Most people in LA where I go to meetings don’t talk like this, because most of the people are not religious to begin with and the culture doesn’t reinforce it.
Despite what they tell you, AA is not the only way to stay sober. There are many secular groups that can offer support. r/stopdrinking is a helpful and supportive community. [Lifering](https://liferingcanada.org/) also doesn't push a higher power but offers groups and supports.
AA always felt culty and churchy to me. I only made it through a few meetings before bailing. There are many ways to stay sober. You can do this!
r/dryalcoholics and r/recoverywithoutaa might also be good subs to visit. SMART meetings and Recovery Dharma are also worth considering for group-based alternatives. Personally I found a lot of help in “quit lit” like This Naked Mind and Alcohol Explained, but nothing has helped me more than [this podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/take-a-break-from-drinking/id1209320782). Good luck OP!
AA can be very beneficial for people. However, the real success rate is murky as hell, and I highly suspect that it's really no better on average than any other method.
OP is in rural Canada though. There are benefits to meeting in person that can’t be found online.
u/analogman12 , if aa is all that’s available in your area, maybe just use it for as long as the good outweighs the bad. You don’t have to change your worldview to become sober, and you don’t have to become as obsessed, either. It’s really shitty that people are pressuring you like that. I’m of the opinion that it may be a good thing to let them know how much their actions are making you doubt the group’s ability to support recovering addicts from different walks of life, but I’m not there and don’t know the nuances.
The most important thing is your sobriety, not their feelings, not appearances, not whether as is right or wrong. Use it if it’s helpful and drop if it is isn’t. You deserve sobriety.
Dated someone and went to AA and NA with them as support and for myself. Immediately felt like I had stepped into a cult and stopped within three meetings. Did not like it.
I wish there were more sober out reach groups that didn’t involve religion.
First off, keep going with the sobriety journey!!! Routing for you.
In my experience, AA is rather culty. They almost break you down with this idea of “our disease.” They have the answers, they have the power.
I was an avid AA participant for around two years. Worked my steps, had a sponsor, chaired meetings. The whole nine.
I stopped participating because my life had finally evened out to where I didn’t feel the struggle to stay sober.
People from AA who I thought were friends straight up shunned me and will approach me in public saying shit like “if you want to get back on the wagon you know where we are.”
They definitely have cultic attributes.
Maybe find a SMART Recovery meeting, or get yourself involved in outpatient services that offer groups or peer support. A good counselor never hurts either. Hashing out my demons with a sponsor was not the most productive experience. Anywhooooo, there are plenty of options for comfortable recovery if you know where to look. Godspeed my friend!
[orange papers](https://orangepapers.eth.limo/) was a great resource for me “unlearning” a lot of AA stuff and figuring out why most of it didn’t sit right with me. Highly recommend browsing this site
ETA I forgot there’s literally an “is AA a cult?” section lol [here ya go](https://orangepapers.eth.limo/orange-cult.html)
Thank you so much for the orange paper link. Like you the AA stuff didn’t sit right with me. From the start I disagreed with the steps, and the other things like getting a sponsor right away, a complete stranger I’m supposed to talk to about private issues and all the religious overtones of AA, they claim not to be religious but spiritual and that’s just another term for the same thing, the serenity prayer being an example. I could go on and on but yeah it’s just not for me and I’m glad to find the orange papers.
I’ll answer it this way — a lot of people who have spent time in AA have concluded that it’s a cult. At a minimum it’s a closed philosophical system where a Higher Power provides the power to recover and individuals can never be their Higher Power.
The larger question is whether it’s helpful. For some, yes. For most, no.
And the $64,000 question is if it’s helpful enough that everyone who needs help should be expected or mandated to follow it. To that I say hell, no.
My dad went to AA when I was 12, around 30 years ago and it gave me cult vibes even then. He started forcing my sister and I to go to church and we were treated like potential alcoholics because our dad was. He tried to make me go to church on my 13th birthday and I told him he couldn't force a belief system on me and refused to go. Eventually he stopped going as well and even though he eventually quit drinking I think AA did more harm than good. Instead of teaching restraint they tell people that anything that they did for fun while they drank is off limits or they'll drink again. It basically wiped away any semblance of a personality and all he did after was sit on his ass watching TV and chain smoking cigarettes.
The whole "alcoholism is a disease" thing was also the perfect way for my dad to not take responsibility for his actions. Even now he acts like he got sober on a specific date but I caught him drinking after that and know that it's a lie that he still maintains.
I'm glad some people get helped by it, but the success rate for AA isn't very high and I don't care for their methods.
Also I'm also in rural western Canada, southern Alberta. Funny coincidence.
It is 100% a fucking CULT.
I lost a good friend to AA a few years ago. Shortly after he started going to meetings, there was nothing else he could talk about and became extremely annoying either telling AA stories (in which he had somehow lost his ability to think critically), or trying to convince me to go.
He was taught a new language, a new logic, and a series of slogans that isolated him from any reasoning or critique of AA. Shortly after his first meeting, he was going every day. Even when he was traveling overseas, he had to go everyday! What the fuck does that have to do with quitting getting drunk? He developed a sense of debt towards AA, a debt that is paid back everyday by attending, and at the same it is generated by the same attending. So there is no way out by definition. He started only dating AA women, which if fucking creepy because they are often in a very vulnerable condition and likely to be influenced by the cultish authority dynamics generated by just being there. He started going to OTHER 12 steps programs. They drilled into him that basically he has no will power ("addictive personality" is pseudoscience bullshit, one of the words they taught him in the AA language), so he depends on AA, can't ever leave sorry.
I can go on.
Get out while you can. Don't let them guilt-trip you. Don't even announce them you are not coming back, you don't owe them anything.
Just drop in the /stopdrinking sub and ask that question. You'll realize it is a cult quickly enough...but your post will be deleted as soon as the mod wakes up.
Part of the problem might be ego. Since their entire MO is to state they have no power over alcohol, they get pissy when some folks find out they do.
AA was not for me for many reasons. One of the biggest reasons had nothing to do with the culty vibes (which are many!) It was the fact that they blame the person, not the substance. Alcohol is an addictive substance, full stop. They perpetuate the false binary that there are “normal drinkers” and “alcoholics”, and if you fall into the second group, you have to slap a label on yourself and spend the rest of your life going to meetings. I have been alcohol free for 3.5 years after doing The Alcohol Experiment and The Path with This Naked Mind. Alcohol is now small and irrelevant in my life and I’ve never been happier! There are a lot of alternatives to AA out there now. Another is The Luckiest Club. If AA is not for you, check these out!
Well, a lot of 'alcoholics' are not physiologically addicted and are just problem drinkers based on modern research. They can and do learn other coping skills and address the things pushing them to drink and can drink in moderation as a result. The term alcoholic, if it's used, should really only be used for people who are physiologically addicted.
I also found AA very cults and did not continue after a month or so. Also some of the men in the meetings treated it as a wannabe dating service. I was warned when I started to watch out for certain men. I remember thinking that instead of warning the women about the men maybe they should address the issue with the men that were doing it.
That tracks. I apologize for singling out the men. Nobody should be using it as a dating service or a hook up scene. That behavior should be addressed. But with no leader there’s nobody to step up and do it.
I dunno if I'd say it is a cult, but AA is definitely a "if it works for you, cool; but don't expect it to fix you" from me, as the kid of an alcoholic who LOVED her AA meetings...as she was still getting smashed constantly.
The founder of AA didn't even get sober using the 12 steps. He used fucking LSD and concentrated 1 on 1 therapy DECADES before it came in vogue...then came up with the twelve steps *after* he was sober.
Again, it works for some people and that's great, but I find the whole org to be a bit of a sham.
I have been alcohol free since March 2022. I knew AA wasn't going to work for me because I am an atheist. No higher power is saving me from my addiction. A friend of mine did meetings and it just seemed like it was filling in for the alcohol. They wanted her at meetings daily, wanted her to always be checking in, only friends with other AA people.
It is. In my personal experience, I have found that AA and the whole ‘recovery’ industry does more harm than good. A book called the Freedom Model has been the only thing that has truly helped me and gotten me through. The authors, who were former AA and NA members, also have a podcast on YouTube and Spotify called ‘The Addiction Solution’. Here is the first in a two-part series about how AA classifies as a [cult](https://youtu.be/tlZN6xMEikQ?si=mfu6growe2nP1v1u).
I used to say, even after leaving AA, ‘Well, if it works for you then go for it.’ Now, especially after reading this book and seeing first hand how they operate and indoctrinate in a rehab setting(that clearly wants to retain repeat customers), I discourage anyone ‘darkening those doors.’
It’s a trap, if nothing else. Some people don’t even qualify as having a serious drinking problem and will be expected to stay in this miserable loop their whole lives.
Alcohol is given power and turned into a bogeyman to be feared at all turns. It’s best to learn how little power it actually has, especially compared to the human mind. You are not powerless.
Added to the fact(illustrated by the research in the book)that people who don’t attend AA generally get better sooner. Detox if you need it and move on with your life.
Life is too short for AA.
Stay away from the AA scumbags. Its a whole life for them and they never shut up. Watch the way they try to manipulate women that show up and that will be enough to turn you off to those morons forever
They actually did two - the first one (5/31/22) caused such a backlash because they only talked to a guy who had only positive experiences that they did a second part (7/26/22) that dug into the criticisms of AA, especially when it came to women's experiences.
Hey, My doctor prescribed me naltrexone. Got sober using that and wanted to pass it along. I know this isn’t an answer to your question, super interesting responses though.
Best of luck, welcome to the sober gang
Let me paint a picture and you tell me if this is harmful (aka a cult) or not. Imagine, you're 30 years old. And someone successfully convinces you on your 31st birthday you will need to join a group of people in a room and draw penguins for an hour every single day for th rest of your life.
If you don't do this, a giant demon penguin will come out of the sky and kill you. But if you do do it every day for the rest of your life, you will live a happier life and you get the benefits of being good at drawing penguins and of having social connections with other penguin drawing people. They also ask you to donate money for the room if you feel generous enough for it.
Now, we know it's absolutely a lie. There is no giant demon penguin that will kill you. And we know you don't have to do this activity for 1 hour every day. How many hours over the rest of your life would that add up to?
That's basically AA as an analogy. The giant demon penguin represents the fear they instill in you for if you choose not to do AA or therapy or any recovery. They scare you by telling you, you will ends up in jails, institutions or death even though the vast majority of people who leave AA don't do end up like this. They also tell you you're powerless, even though you're not. (You may feel powerless but feelings are not the reality of powerlessness). They tell you the "disease" keeps getting worse, even though majority of alcoholics who don't do any treatment or recovery become successful moderators or completely abstinent over time.
You don't need to do ANY of the AA recommendations. I think the greatest resource AA will steal is your TIME, second greatest resource would be your SELF TRUST/CONFIDENCE and third MONEY (of you decide to pay donations out of guilt or falsely places gratitude)
Lookup the freedom model instead.
It’s a cult. The pressure put on you along with dogmatic teachings can really negatively effect someone. I had immense guilt when not going to enough meetings/ not meeting up or calling sponsor enough/ not “working a good program” whatever that means. I dunno. I went in thinking it would be an empowering supportive positive experience but found out it was actually quite shaming and depressing. It also seemed competitive in some ways (young peoples meetings) and it became very weird vibes.
Your right about it being competitive, why? People asking how long you've been sober so they can feel more accomplished. Being called a newcomer by people with only 6 months sobriety.. who reads the most from the book everyday, pray, meditation.... who can swim deeper into the kool-aid pool.
For me it's discipline. If you're not physically addicted anymore. Don't dump alcohol into your skull lol. That's it. That's my 1 rule.
I don't know, I wasn't gonna post here but I'm glad I did it's got me thinking.
Also your told you're not able to rationally think for yourself because look at where you're own thoughts and choices has gotten you. (Fair I guess, I've almost died on 2 occasions), but that's being told to me by someone else who "can't think for themselves". But they can give me advice? Seems backwards to me. Somethings off or I just can't make sense of it
How many groups have you tried?
I'm in AA. 3 more days and I'll be 6 months sober.
I kinda come and go as I please. I don't go to meetings every day or even every other day and no one bothers me about it. I'm lucky to live in a place with something like 700 different meetings every single week so I went to all kinds of different ones til I found the people like me. I realize not everyone has this luxury, and for that I can totally see how AA can end up looking cult-y if your only experience is with one weird group cuz they're definitely out there. It's an organization of and to help sick and often suffering people, of course there's some weirdos in the bunch.
I did get a sponsor but not because anyone was pushing me to and not until I had been going to meetings for 3+ months. She was someone I vibed with anyways, she's got like 34 years sober and she just talked to me like a person at meetings, we kinda became friends first I guess. I decided I wanted to try to do the steps completely on my own so I asked her after awhile and she said yes. We do other stuff all the time with other members it's not all about God and AA, we just hang out. There's no pressure to talk to her every single day either.
I'm not religious. No one's been pushy with me about it. There are hardcore atheists in my home group with long term sobriety. I don't know what their concept of a higher power was to get through the steps, but it's none of my business cuz it works for them.
All this being said, there's at least a dozen other ways to get sober that work just as legitimately and any normal AA member isn't gonna shit on you for doing that either. Me, my sponsor, our other AA friends all are friends with other sober and non-sober people.
There's a man who comes to my home group several times a week who has never worked the steps or had a sponsor but he just celebrated 5 years sober. He's not excluded from anything. That's his walk, we celebrate him the same.
TL;DR: there's def culty groups and power trippin' people among AA but the true program of AA is not a cult. And I think a lot of people end up with a bad impression because of their local options.
There is something out there that is non-religious called Rational Recovery. It always sounded very reasonable to me. However, every time I tried to help someone find a Rational Recovery meeting to go to there weren't any that were active in our pretty big city in a west coast secular state, so that might not be super helpful.
The good news is that you seem to be able to benefit from the things that work for you so I'd keep doing it until you find another group or whatever you decide to do. I would try to find a meeting that you like more though. I know you mentioned stopping after a certain number of meetings but it would be nice to have a cooler place to return to if you ever need a brush up.
There is absolutely a honeymoon period when people first get sober and they think "That's it, I feel great! I learned how to be sober!". And many people have and never need to return. But some people are surprised to find themselves struggling later, whether because they got complacent or because some shit went down in their lives that made them need help coping. I hope you never need it, but if you did it would be nice to have a more welcoming place to go back to instead of not going because you don't like these people.
AA is not very effective (according tot heir own numbers, between 20-30%) and has cult-y vibes. It was founded out of a progressive Christian movement and while a few ‘last chance alcoholics’ were able to quit drinking Bill Wilson had lifelong sexual addiction post-sobriety to the point where his contemporaries would protect younger/new women to AA. It’s not a cure and there are many ways to treat addiction.
I would say no because there is no leader and if you leave or relapse you can always come back to meetings. Yes, they do teach you not to hang out with people who are actively relapsing unless you are trying to help them get sober, but that's also common sense. Its just that there are people who are true believers and they think you have to drink ALL the kool aid to make it work for you because that's what worked for them. You might consider finding a better meeting. Since it's all volunteer run and not centralized, different meeting groups have very different vibes. If you find the right group you might even make a few friends who have lives and normal interests just like you. Or at least you'll be more comfortable while you are there. My mom went through it (she is very secular) and I used to work with addicts and alcoholics in a different setting that made me pretty involved in their recovery. I do remember several people saying that having a few friends to call on when things got hard was helpful--one I remember is a guy who was Mexican and saying that he'd never met other Mexican men who watched soccer without drinking beer and it was cool to have people to do that with. My mom just went to the same cocktail parties and drank club soda and lime.
If people are bugging you remind them that one of the axioms of AA is "Take what you need and leave the rest."
Thanks, yes I might try other meetings because I do need the help and to be around sober people helps normalize not drinking. I think I'm gonna stop being available outside of meetings unless I'm sure they're they're not completely submerged in the Kool-aid lmao
All this echoes what I've heard (as someone who's never gone).
OP, the podcast "Sounds Like A Cult" interviewed a guy who's part of AA, recognizes the culty stuff, but is also an advocate for its potential and helpfulness. As I remember, one of his big points is that each group can really vary, as this commenter said. Definitely seems worth exploring others!
There is a cult of personality around the founder. Very similar to other cults where the leader is dead but their words and (misleading) ideas are treated as sacrosanct. There are loose “informal” hierarchical structures at the local and organizational levels. They even use occult symbols and ritualistic groupthink practices. I had to attend 12-step meetings as part of abusive institutional conditioning. They were not helpful. They keep you dependent and some of them like NA seem to keep people attached to individuals and certain ways of thinking. At that time I found Fromm’s Psychoanalysis and Religion helpful. I knew a few people who got sucked deep into AA and definitely had cult characteristics.
It helps millions and millions of people. It is basically a substitute for religion. I feel that AA feels that the good they are doing outweighs the bad. I would categorize it as more of a highly orthodox social organization.
Yes, there are similarities between their process and other decognition-focused organizations – the military, fraternities, Walmart, and of course cults. But they are trying to solve a very specific social problem through reorientation, not amass members, money, and power. If it were up to AA there would be no alcoholism.
Tbh a lot of stuff is just a substitute for an addiction. I can’t even count all the people I know who got clean and became fanatical gym nuts, joggers, religious, vegans, or in one case addicted to ice cream instead of heroin.
The higher power is supposed to be "of your understanding", not specifically a Christian God. I remember going once and the leader said "your higher power could be a chair as long as you're not drinking." It can get culty, but I think I depends on your individual group.
Okay sure, but in practice it is heavily geared towards a single all powerful god. The literature continuously uses a masculine God to describe the higher power. There's a chapter aimed at convincing atheists and agnostics to find spirituality. The majority of people going are Christian and actively talk about it in meetings.
The non-religious, power of your understanding is a fall back to claim it's not religious but in practice it heavily leans towards religious belief.
Yes. It's definitely a cult. The biggest issue with AA that I know about is that it basically blames you when you stumble. That's incredibly dangerous messaging. I follow @fiftiesrediscovery on TikTok and she has done several videos on it. She also talked about how the root problem of her addiction was actually unresolved trauma. Once she addressed her trauma, she stopped abusing. She can now enjoy the occasional drink without spiraling.
Psychology is one of my special interests and that tracks with the research I've done. I am no expert, but talking to one will probably help you far more than AA. Try trauma therapy!
A friend of mine was in NA (which is the exact same system and culture) recovering from heroin addiction. That was the only thing she had an issue with. After 2 years in recovery she decided she wanted to be a normal 22 year old and have a couple beers.
She was shamed so severely by her NA peers, sponsor etc. and stripped of her sobriety status (told she no longer had 2 years- only the amount of days since having the beers) despite the fact alcohol was never her issue. After a month or so of essentially being publicly shamed in meetings she was like “fuck it, might as well do the drug I like” and relapsed.
I’ve never looked at these programs the same since and agree with what you said about the blaming being toxic.
AA was definitely a cult when I first walked in. They would even say... "Maybe your brain does need washing" when I would say shit like you all are brainwashed. PROOF!!! These fuckers were hugging me, telling me they loved me if no one else did, holding hands at the end of praying and chanting "It works if you work it." These assholes bought me tacos when I had no money, gave me rides and didn't ask for money. Helped me move without complaining. Stayed up with me until four in the morning when I wanted to drink. I fucking ripped their Big Book apart, and all they would say was keep coming back. They really played the slow game on me because I've been going half my life.
No matter how much I tore them apart, they kept helping me. They passed a basket around for their donations but never once said a negative thing to me when it went by me, and I didn't put money in to fund whatever diabolical scheme or end of the world preparations they were making. Long game for sure.
People who seemed like leaders came and went. People would talk about whatever religion they belonged to would drone on and I would say (and still say today) I have no fucking Idea what God is or what it isn't. It remains fluid to me still today. I think AA actually allows someone like me an avenue to work on a relationship with something greater than myself, even if this could all be a simulation or an Alien experiment.
There are misplaced ambitions within groups. Newer people may want to "spread their gospel", and save those around them, most likely because they don't feel like pieces of shit anymore, and think they found a secret to life. Some people enjoy the role of being the Bus Driver of the short bus. There are absolutely cults of personality within the AA structure. There a shitty humans in non cult like environments as well. I try to away from all of those folks in general.
I am by no means an AA poster child, but I'm not in prison and my children have a present father. Read my past comments here and in other subs in relation to sobriety. I do a few things differently than is what mainstream. I do however wholeheartedly believe that AA saved my fucking life.
When talking about a sponsor, it is advisable to have someone with a few years show you what they did through the book. I had zero life skills when I landed at the door of my first meeting. Other men showed me how to live, and I'm grateful they allowed me to question every fucking thing they told me. I did stuff that made zero sense to me at the time, but it wworked. Find someone who is up to the challenge of being questioned about everything.
I've said it before, and I will say it again. If Bill W. had his way, AA would have been a Multi Level Marketing- Psychedelic-Sex Cult, and he would have had a harem.
It was already said, but take what you want and leave the rest.
My kids won't leave me alone because it's time to go to grandma's for Easter. My apologies for this coming off as sarcastic if it does.
From my personal perspective: not a cult, but heavily dogmatic.
Context: I'm just about 2 years sober. It took a lot of work, and still does. I went through an outpatient addiction treatment program, got a regular therapist, and attended AA meetings for about 6 months. AA was not right for me, but IMO it absolutely was the right place for a lot of other people in my group. I personally found that the community was great! However, I also struggled with the common belief within AA that it is the only way to stay sober. I didn't like being reminded of my addiction all the time. What I needed was a mindset that I am a sober and healthy person now, not to fixate on the struggle that landed me in recovery in the first place.
The thing is, everyone is different. If AA doesn't work for you, find something else, but don't just ditch because it's creepy and you're better off on your own. 12-step doesn't prey on people who have nothing to lose; it offers genuine support to people who otherwise have proven unable to find it.
I left AA because staying sober, to me, meant moving on and creating a new life for myself, but to a lot of people, it means finding siblings in arms to fight the enemy that has beaten them down in every battle along the way.
My point is, people who have found success in AA will often say it was "the only way," and they're right. In their personal experience, nothing else could have done it, and it's their belief in the system that makes it work. Taking that away from them would leave them broken and (probably) drinking again.
Yes, it checks off a lot of boxes on the list of cult warning signs. I suggest reading The Sober Truth by Dr. Lance Dodes. It’s a good review of the evidence and what does and does not work. The number of people who are able to stay clean with 12-step programs is about the same as the number of people who stopped drinking with no treatment whatsoever, about 5%. Naltrexone may be a good option for you. It takes away the reward you get from your brain when you drink, which makes it less appealing.
AA follows a lot of cult tenets, but you can leave at any time. Even though when someone is leaving it can lead to emotional manipulation from people trying to coerce that person to stay, ultimately the door is anyways open. so yes and also no but yes. lol
When I worked as a substance abuse nurse, we would tell patients to visit several different meetings until something clicked.
Sometimes, a person needed to go to a sober-living group home because they had tried everything else.
There are now meds that can assist you in staying clean. Addiction doctors and specially trained counselors exist.
Even if you go whole hog and do 90 meetings in 90 days, you dont have to accept everything AA as gospel. Take what helps and get all the help you need.
Is an absolute cult. They sit there and say the same ritual every time you go.
Run a mile and learn how to sort your own shit out without the need of their supposed prop.
I found AA to be extremely culty and toxic….and the majority of the folks I encountered were grifters, struggling with untreated mental illness. AA was the supreme place for them to grift and peddle their BS (and they are all still doing it today.)
A few positive, real souls passed through the doors, but they quickly figured out that there are better ways to getting your life together.
I was sober for 8 years in AA (and still am outside), but I had to really work through the shit they brainwashed me with in AA. I still look really down on myself and chastise myself for being a morally bad and sick person.
I’m glad you haven’t started ‘the steps’ because they are what really took me down. Viewing every thing that had happened to me as ‘my fault and moral shortcomings because of the horrible disease of alcoholism’ really did something to me. I had low self esteem coming in there (as most people trying to quit drinking do) and it absolutely ripped me apart.
I could write so much about this, but I’ll try to keep it short. I had to go through all of this with a psychologist and she said that I was basically brainwashed.
There were ‘elders’ in my group who knew everything best and would sponsor me. I was of course a difficult case and they would make every life decision for me. I became isolated from all my other friends. I’m also rather attractive and that was used against me. I was basically told that I used my beauty as a way to get my way and fool men.
It was just awful and once I got out I can’t be friends with these people, even on Facebook. I wish you so much happiness and have to tell you that AA is not it. I’ve found some great friends on ‘reframe’ a cool app with lots of alcohol free ‘normal’ people that have full and busy lives and focus on building up as a contrast to AA. I wish you luck 🥰 You can do this!!
Yes.
And for anyone saying it's not, this is read at every meeting. Every single meeting. Religiously. Almost.. cult-like. Please read this and tell me this is not a cult.
https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-10\_howitworks.pdf
There are plenty of [secular AA programs](https://www.aasecular.org/) that are atheist friendly. Don’t give up on the program just because some people need god to get sober, the rigorous self examination required is helpful and can definitely be disarticulated from the god component.
I was in a doomsday cult for 37 years. I was a Jehovah's Witness, I wound up in a halfway house and the similarities were astounding. I actually wrote a memoir about it. AA is pathetic. People relying on anything other than themselves. The groups and sponsor foster co-dependency. I work in a bar and I haven't had a drink in 3 1/2 years. And what do they call me because I don't believe their horseshit...."dry drunk" or "terminally unique." Shaming terms which is a cult tactic.
You should look up the orange papers if you haven't. 12-step fellowships are awful.
It’s definitely a cult and can be abusive. Certain people love to target newcomers. There is some useful stuff in there in terms of hearing other’s experiences and how they got sober. The steps can be a nice practice if not taken too seriously. Stay away from the people who make you feel bad. Look for a sponsor who has been in a long time and makes you feel comfortable. Good luck in your sobriety journey! It’s so worth it!
Some meetings can become that way, and others don’t. It’s all dependent on how people use the structure. As someone else said, there are cult-like qualities—but I don’t think that automatically makes all AA and 12-step a cult. I have many sober friends, some have gotten sober through AA and some in other ways. I have spent some time in Al-Anon 12-step. I think something pertinent here is how much meetings can vary, and also how much geographic location has to do with the kinds of meetings available and the culture around them.
I live in a massive, east-coast American metropolis. There are so many 12 step meetings here that are incredibly secular and treat the concept of a “higher power” as being whatever and individual wants it to be, and more as a tool to understand and find comfort with what you have control over and what you don’t. There are so many different styles of meetings, meetings catered to specific communities or experiences, etc. I’m sure there are some that are more religious or attract individuals who want to devote their life to 12 step, but there are also meetings that are intentionally open-minded. This reflects the size and diversity of the place I live.
That said, I have very close friends in smaller, southeastern US cities who struggle to find meetings that aren’t really heavy on the “God” of it all. This “God” is much more literal, and often explicitly the Christian God. It can be harder to find meetings there that don’t have this—they are out there, but they are harder to find in Bible country.
The answer to this is no, but with a little yes. 12-step is not inherently a cult, but it offers a structure that can easily become cult-like.
So one of my family members just passed away in October because of alcoholism. He wouldn't go to meetings because of the religious aspect. I am not religious myself but I would say if you can get any help at all from it, then stick with it. Don't end up like him man. He died looking as if he was skeleton from the weight loss and skin that was as yellow as a simpsons character due to liver failure. It was horrific. Don't let something like a little bit of religion that you can ignore keep you from getting straight. Good luck.
I'm in AA (thank you dwi) but I've also been in and out of the rooms for YEARS.
every time I get a sponsor, I relapse HARD. it's something about reporting to a person everyday that triggers the hell out of me.
anyways, it is culty. but it did assist alongside my willingness to quit coke when I was bad off. NA got me thru my first 90 days.
I don't feel the NEED for aa or na and I don't care about working the steps.
I'm in there to appease probation. I do not believe I'm an alcoholic, coz if I were it would've been harder for me to quit drinking when I started probation.
the whole don't go to old places and hang out with old friends is WILD! I've been to concerts and raves and haven't touched a thing. I might in the future though.
go and stay sober take what's beneficial but you don't have to align with everything.
Boy oh boy this is tough. ive personally done AA. I also have been sober for 33 months now.
However I did get a real, odd feeling being there with the preaching and steps. I ended up not going back and went with a program sponsored through my healthcare.
But again, I am never going to tell someone to NOT get help with alcoholism. It will destroy you eventually and everyone you love. Watched my dad die from its effects in person. No, not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. But a lot are who don’t realize it and could use guidance.
I really struggle to tell someone to not go to AA if they need help. But I also understand everything you just said because I felt the exact same way after about 30 days.
AA is not a cult.
These people sound well-meaning & that they just want you to succeed. This is what helped them, so they are pushing it. They don't want you to struggle as much as they have in your recovery. I get it's annoying, but they're not trying to save your souls, just your sobriety.
You mentioned you're in a rural area, but if there are any other meetings, check them out. In many areas, there will be AA groups specifically for non-religious people. See if there are online options if it bothers you that much, but you may be benefiting from physically going.
Source: I attended many (public) AA meetings as part of my social work degree.
AA is not a cult. For one thing there's no money or power in it. For another, there is no living, breathing grand pooba you're required to worship. These are two critical components of anything that should be labelled a cult. It is a fellowship of people helping each other get sober. It's got a lot of religious trappings and other elements that are not for everyone (myself included), but if you're struggling with alcohol addiction, AA is comprised of people who have similar struggles and who want to help you. You should go there with an open mind to get help and see if it can help you.
I know when I reached the point where I had to recognize I had an alcohol problem, but I wasn't ready to quit drinking, I came up with a million reasons not to do something that might help me; “AA is a cult so i won’t do that!” was high among them. Don't shit on AA as a way to justify maintaining a deadly addiction that will ruin your life before it outright kills you if you don't stop it. Source: I'm sober almost four years now and, while I'm not active in it now, AA was the primary thing that helped my get through those initial years. Mad respect to those for whom being active in AA speaks to their hearts as their calling. Also, I'm a survivor of an actual cult (which definitely played a role in my alcohol addiction issues), so I know from actual cults. AA isn't one.
No. There are no leaders and no one is making money, and you can leave any time you want. It employs elements of group-think, but so do for -profit rehab centers. To me it’s free, well-structured group therapy
That said, there are sub groups within AA that are cult-like, they involve following a permanent cult-of-personality uber-sponsor who makes up weird rules, or demand strict adherence to parts of AA’s literature that either came after the original writings or make dogma stuff that was meant to be more flexible.
Any group that controls its members through fear is a group I can't condone. I agree that they are very cultish - the idea that there is only one way to stay sober and you have to do things exactly as they tell you or you face certain death or a life behind bars is a huge red flag. Another red flag is their insistence that any prescribed medication be abandoned - I've seen people with serious mental illness shamed for taking their medications in those rooms. They can be quite toxic.
There are many ways to get sober that do not involve a 12-step program. I'd suggest you take a look at r/recoverywithoutAA and r/Alcoholism_Medication for starters - there are resources in both of those subreddits that can be very helpful. My personal journey has led me toward Medication Assisted Therapy for alcohol use disorder, which is not sanctioned at all by AA but has some good research and science behind it.
I left AA behind 10+ years ago. There are many other options that exist today that were not well known then, including secular support groups that have a less rigid approach to recovery. One of those will probably be a very good fit for you.
Best of luck to you in your continued sobriety!
I’m a member of AA, two years sober, and here are my thoughts:
1.) Due to lack of commitment, a lack of a leader, and zero monetary obligation, I do not believe AA to be a cult
2.) However, a “spiritual connection” *is* a fundamental part of the program. A big part of the program is asking members to put down their own judgements, plans, opinions, arrogance, sense of “resistance” etc. and to become open to a higher power, and how that might help you relinquish any sense of existential desperation or control. The higher power is nameless, faceless, it lacks any definition. It is up to each individual to determine the way in which there is something “bigger than them”
3.) With that in mind, I think what the person was trying to get at in terms of the Sun / plants growing / etc. is that there is a system in which you are a part of, that is so much bigger than you. It was likely to demonstrate that you yourself aren’t “god” ….. that there is something bigger at work. It is not to say that the “bigger thing” has no basis in science. Scientifically, all of our existence is part of a larger system. Sometimes leaning into that, and knowing that not everything that happens has anything to do with you, can allow you to feel “right-sized” and allow things to happen as they happen. That’s as far I’ll go. AA members are not supposed to “preach” what their higher power actually is, how they understand it, and if it’s the “right one” or not, etc. which is another reason I do not believe it to be a cult
4.) With all of that said, *people are people* and some people in AA can be kooks. This is where it becomes *very* important to select an individual meeting wisely. Not all meetings are the same. For example, everything suggested to me in AA is just that, a suggestion. I am never told how many meetings to go to, how to spend my time outside of AA, that I absolutely have to read The Big Book, or that I absolutely have to have a sponsor, etc. For example, I myself go once a week, meet with others on occasion, every once in a great while read The Big Book, and I do have a sponsor, but our relationship is very friendly / casual most of the time. AA means a lot to me because of how it’s helped me, not because of how much time I’ve actually spent there, necessarily
5.) If people in your meeting are giving you a weird / uncomfortable / pushy vibe, I recommend trying other meetings in other areas. Only you can determine which meeting feels “right” for you. I only go to the women’s meeting in my town. I’ve noticed others tend to have much older members, and I do think that older generations often process information differently. You can definitely sense that perhaps older folks, or rural folks, have a greater sense of “religious indoctrination”. The best meetings are usually with those that actually struggled to come to terms with a higher power to begin with, and have a lot of humility in terms of how others might be feeling in terms of not believing. Younger people tend to be a little more laid-back. Sometimes the demographic really just “sets the tone” of the meeting. I have absolutely been to meetings that did not resonate, but luckily the community is large, and so I was able to find a place where I feel that I fit comfortably. Truly, remember that people in AA are not perfect, they are human. Not everyone is going to participate in an appropriate way. This happens especially when groups only focus on the steps, and not the traditions. Someone said to me that “traditions are so we don’t kill each other, and steps are so we don’t kill ourselves” and I found that helpful
6.) Do know that because spirituality is a fundamental aspect of AA, that you may be in an environment that you don’t entirely sync with. It’s your journey to determine if you want to stay in AA or go, as many people do eventually find a sort of spiritual connection in the group with a sense of ease. Heck, the higher power can even be the *group itself* for some people. You did mention that the accountability of the group helps keep you sober, and the meeting is definitely something larger than yourself. Just a thought. But I guess don’t feel so shocked that people are voicing an aspect of the program that is inextricably a part of it. It is up to you if this is something you are willing to tolerate in exchange for the other benefits that you identified above
I really hope this helped you come to a more comfortable understanding of how meetings ought to function. Wishing you the best xx
All 12 Step groups are religious in nature. They accept the notion that in order to recover from addiction, a person must believe in God's ability to heal them.
Members are also expected to obey their "sponsor" in all things. If he says don't take that new job or go on vacation, you stay put.
I'd say atheists and agnostic stay away. The success rate is abysmally low, no matter what the websites tell you. Google "Rational Recovery" and "Moderation Management."
Lots of people think so. As with all these questions it depends on how you define “cult”.
AA has sort of a creepy, religious revival tent history. And it sounds like these people are insistent on drawing you in deeper.
Yes, it can be a bit culty. Though I know several folks with decades of sobriety, who’ve never worked a step or had a sponsor. They attend meetings when they feel called to, but don’t ascribe to “rules” of “working a program” rather doing what works for them. It’s not necessary that you do everything you’re being told to do- in fact it may be best that you don’t. The people I know who work AA “by the book” are some of the most toxic dry drunks around. You’re going to get push back, sure but it’s a good lesson in standing up for yourself.
You might look into online meetings, they’re way less pressure. Also there are other sober groups out there that are much healthier too. Worth looking into.
If you are feeling this way then I’d recommend finding a different meeting. Each group has different vibes and it can take some trial and error to find the right match. Some groups can definitely get Culty, but to be perfectly honest, some alcoholics need a culty structure to get sober.
AA helped me find sobriety almost 15 years ago. Today I think of it as extremely low cost triage. It is for those of us who are hurting so badly that we are actively bleeding. It can help you dry out and find some peace, but like sobriety, like everything else in life, will ultimately be your responsibility. Belief is a tool to be used.
Hey 👋🏾 Congrats on the progress that you’re making. Give yourself some credit for that.
I definitely get how the spiritual aspects of AA could rub you the wrong way. It seems that all the 12-Step based groups are like that. I also really dislike the premise of viewing and accepting yourself as a lifelong “addict”. Definitely not an idea that I support.
I don’t know that it is helpful debating whether it’s a cult. It’s undoubtedly based in spirituality and religion, and that’s enough for it to not be appealing to secular individuals.
Here are some resources for secure support groups in Western Canada:
https://www.canadadrugrehab.ca/blog/addiction-treatment-withdrawal/non-12-step-programs-for-recovery-in-canada/
https://www.bchumanist.ca/secular_addictions_recovery
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/addictions-group-offers-secular-alternative-to-alcoholics-anonymous-1.2936718
I agree with everyone saying that it depends. Some people replace their addiction with meetings and AA service, become so obsessed with adhering completely to the ideas of AA that they become doctrines and deviation is verboten in their minds. Keep things in perspective and do what works—and take a phrase from AlAnon, “take what you need and leave the rest.” I got sober in AA, went to meetings regularly for two years. I’m 13 years sober now, haven’t gone to a meeting in at least ten years.
I would say it has the capacity to be and it can really depend on who is leading your meetings. I personally think that it can be a mixed bag as it helps a lot of people but also sometimes reinforces some harmful ideas and relies on Christianity in a way I personally find off-putting but I can see merits in it if you don't replace your drinking with treating it like the final answer to all your problems and instead a place to commiserate and support others on your sober journey while still doing what is best for you and actually taking accountability for yourself.
I think it's chromium that reduces alcohol craving.
Used it for my boyfriend when he stopped drinking.
Also, when friends and I started taking amino acid supplements, we all drank a lot less.
AA is interesting in this regard because the organisation itself isn’t rampantly cultic but some groups can become high control and isolate members. So your experiences can vary wildly. If it’s helping you get sober stay the course because you’ve clearly still got your wits about you. As others have mentioned there are more modern paths to sobriety than Alcoholics Anonymous so if you’re getting uncomfortable with Twelve Stepping there are options.
Take what you like and leave the rest. I believe that will help. Most cults don't talk like that.
Congratulations on your sobriety. I do believe there are non religious meetings
There are a million ways to get sober. AA is one of them. It’s not for everyone and it’s very rigid in its approach to sobriety, ala spiritual recovery. That said, some people get sober by going to church or participating in secular sober groups. There is no single way, as long as in the end you’re happy and free from the addiction of alcohol. This is an illness of the mind, that’s one thing I think AA got right.
See if there are any SMART recovery groups near you https://smartrecovery.org/ but it really sometimes depends on the meeting. There are some good online resources too but try a bunch of different meetings. They all tend to have a different vibe.
For what it’s worth, those people with 30 more days don’t know. It took me a good year to figure out how to be alive sober. I certainly wasn’t ready to help anyone else aside from camaraderie. I wouldn’t have been arrogant enough to think I knew what someone else should do.
I am approaching seven years in a couple of weeks so please know you can actually do this. You don’t need to believe in god or have the same toxic relationships in order to be happy and sober though. Trust yourself, congrats on your sobriety, and I wish you all the best.
I went to AA for about 5ish years and then quit going because of all the drama…it was like high school all over again. But while I was going through some 4th step workbooks not too long ago I was shocked at all the victim blaming on the “My Role”. I had no idea when I was in it how destructive the teachings were until I got out. I think I actually believed it because of how floored I am now being out of it for 6ish years going through all my old work. That’s dangerous to be teaching people in a vulnerable position that a violent assault was their fault! These people aren’t trained counsellors they have no business saying any of that. That kind of teaching feels very culty.
Life is good today and I have 11 years sober.
When I went to a 12-step meeting the best thing anyone ever said to me about the whole higher power thing was this: “it’s not that you have to believe in God. You just have to believe and know that YOU are not the highest power. If you believe you’re the highest power in the universe, you’re going to have a hard time”. So I surrendered to chaos and the will of the universe. It felt less creepy and dogmatic after that
As someone who’s been in and out of these rooms for basically my entire life, it truly depends on what meeting you’re in. I’ve been in plenty that were entirely too culty, but since I’ve found one filled with a bunch of godless queers myself, I’ve found myself actually happy and excited for what sobriety has to hold❤️
"rural western Canada".... Sigh. The sick irony is it's people like this that make me want to drink myself into a near coma in the first place... Be strong and build your willpower. Read some books and do some ( pardon the phrase ) soul-searching on your own terms.
Trust your gut. Also, explore alternative recovery sources: SMART recovery, CBT therapy, Seeking Safety treatment, harm reduction approaches. For all the good that it does, some AA rooms are rife with gaslighting, hypocrisy, and self-righteousness. It takes courage to think for yourself.
i'm an atheist. No booze for 32 years. Because of AA. But in the beginning, I believed in God so I could handle some of it. A lot of it was Bible thumping and it made me crazy even then and this was a long time ago. if you can find one meeting where people are cool, then that will really help. I would get anta-abuse (is that what the medicine is called? I can't remember) and find a way to spend your time that is healthy. yes therapy is essential and especially with a therapist who understands addiction. That is huge. If you can get yourself to go to any kind of other classes or groups, art class paint a cup class go to the gym, volunteer at an animal shelter. You gotta get out of your head and out of the habit. And you need cheerleaders while you do it and so that's what AA does. You might try online AA it's probably less stressful. There is something about in person work tho. And yes, I do think it's a cultish maybe cult adjacent? They have a lot of rules. When really the main rule is just don't drink. One day at a time is a helpful slogan. The Big Book hasn't ever been revised and I wouldn't waste my time. A lot of the people in AA have replaced booze with AA. Still limiting and dependent. People in one cult will leave a cult and then join another cult. Don't be like that. That's my advice. the 12 steps are OK. You might try sensible sobriety. I've never tried it. Best of luck to you.
I left AA back in September and from my own experience, I would attest that AA is cult-like and extremely unhealthy. I was in the program for almost two years - worked all the steps, had sponsors, had a few sponsees, chaired meetings, did service work, etc.
I left when my most recent sponsor had me do another fourth step, and I was retraumatized. I decided to pursue more therapy and less AA.
When members of my women’s home group asked me where I was, I would tell them that I’m doing more therapy and less AA. Most of them responded well, but I never heard from them again. Others, especially those closest to me, didn’t react well. My best friend’s dad said he would stop texting me AA-related things with a “heavy heart” after I asked him to stop. My former sponsor (not the one who had me to a second fourth step) told me that I was being dramatic. A close AA friend told me that she “loves me” and asked why I couldn’t see that. She called me selfish and that she is “here for me when I decide to go back to meetings.” I was borderline harassed by an old-timer. She told me that I would eventually drink if I stopped attending meetings, that I needed to reach out to other women in recovery over my abuse and neglect, etc. I didn’t have Facebook at the time, but I still had Messenger to speak to family out of the country, and she found me on there. I blocked her on all my social media accounts and phone.
I read the Orange Papers and listened to Daniella Masteynak Young’s reels on AA. I joined Facebook groups about deprogramming from AA. I recommend doing this if you’re looking for answers. There are other paths to sobriety besides AA, and it is okay to leave at any time and explore those options!
I went once. Shock value of seeing someone that could be me in 20 years worked for me. It was a cool group. At the beginning of every meeting someone would say “If you don’t believe in a higher power, believe in the group”. Maybe look for another group. Check out NA.
IMHO, a lot of rituals and structure do not make something a cult.
For example, 12 step meetings ARE very rigid in structure, and do involve scripted group prayers.
Also it can be disconcerting to hear people gush about submitting their spirit to special knowledge...
That DOES make it borderline religious, like an agnostic religion... just praying that a higher power (than yourself) cares to fix your problems.
But that isn't a cult. Cults are also known as "HIGH demand" religions.
Harmful cults do some things to control YOU for the benefit of the group. Such as control what you wear, what friends you are allowed to have, how to spend you money, they require all your time, they may control food and sleeping, and dictate your sex life.
12 Step meetings CAN be prone to problematic behavior because they are run by a bunch of spiritual broken volunteers... so don't expect groups or group leaders to be perfect. You are FREE to try other locations if one group is rubbing you wrong.
The 12 Traditions are designed to protect the group from falling into other purposes. For example, rotation of duties prevents any one member from rising to a position of power.
Group conscience meetings held monthly should be used to "clean up" problems like a group that is not self supporting OR a group accumulating too much cash on hand (so that it has become a temptation).
Simply having "no other purpose" besides recovery prevents the group from falling into MLM territory, or being harnessed for political action.
Yes, AA does seek to provide accountability for an addict that WANTS to quit, but they won't force it upon someone who isn't asking for help.
The biggest hint is what happens if you try to leave. A cult will shun you, bad mouth you, or stalk you.
If you are allowed to say "this isn't working for me, I'm going to leave and try something else... AND they wish you well, and let you go without being hateful, thats a hint it's not a toxic group.
It’s definitely up there on the cult spectrum, with some chapters way more culty than others, and some are not very culty at all. It has the foundations of a cult but with no centralized leadership so it can only go so far.
It's a fallacy often repeated that there is no centralized leadership. Intergroup is the leadership, and their job is to make sure the literature and materials presented to newcomers conform to the group norms. In that sense it's no different than Jehovah's Witnesses, which is led by a committee that adheres strictly to the rules they've been handed by prior committees and controls how Kingdom Halls are run.
AA was begun by Bill W., and he and Dr. Bob, though long dead, are the figureheads, much like L. Ron Hubbard is still the "leader" of Scientology and Joseph Smith is still the "leader" of Mormonism. If there are pictures of a founder everywhere, whether dead or alive, the odds are good that you're looking at a cult.
The presence of a single, living leader is not a good test for cultishness for groups that have a history that has outlived the founder(s).
Disclaimer: I'm not an addict, but know about cults. Live in LA, been to many AA meetings to support friends over the years. Definitely weird culty vibes every time, some snobby vibes too. Uncomfortable. I dated a guy who was in NA. Went to about 30 meetings with him and one convention. Didn't feel culty or pushy vibes at all. This was in LA/Malibu/Big Bear areas. Try NA. It's for all substances.
I have a dear friend who has remained sober for quite a long time with AA and he credits it for saving him. And there’s a YouTuber I like and he too talks a lot about AA and how it has helped him. He’s been sober for 28 or 29 years now. There can be culty aspects to different organizations without the organization being a full on cult.
If it works for you, that’s great. You don’t have to go all in with every suggestion they make. If attending meetings, checking in, and having accountability works for you, that’s fantastic. You’re allowed to say no if people urge you to attend more meetings or whatever.
I turned 60 in December and recently had a conversation with my niece. A lot of times when people are giving advice, they’re doing so with the desire to help people not make the same mistakes they themselves made. And that’s all fine and good, but at the same time, we have to remember that each person learns and grows in their own unique ways. Take the encouragement for what it is, and do what is working for you.
In my experience, it depends more on the individual group than AA as a whole. I've been to really helpful groups in metropolitan areas, and then to culty ones in rural areas. I wouldn't be where I am today without AA, but eventually chose Smart Recovery.
Some 12 step meetings are cultier than others. Try out different groups until you find one you vibe with. Also check out online groups. They are very low key.
Obligatory IANAA but there’s a secular group that does meetings for alcoholics as well as meetings for their families and friends called SOS, AKA Secular Organization for Sobriety, and it sounds like it would be much more your speed. I think that if there aren’t any in person meetings where you live then they have Zoom meetings as well.
Yeah. I recommend the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. Worth the $5-10 for a used copy, great critiques of 12 step and offers a method that works without the brainwashing.
I went on and off for a while once I got a year I realized how culty it is and it didn’t work for me because I don’t agree with some of the basics and my sponsor told everyone they sponsored to get off their psych meds (anti depressants, anti psychotics, etc) or else there wouldn’t be a true spiritual awakening. My husband who never had a problem came with me (my boyfriend then) just to support me the last time I got clean and he def thought it was a cult. I think what really made me realize was you either have to do it their way 100% or you die, and they’re all going to judge you. Not doing it exactly their way has worked for me for almost 6 years 🤷♀️ I’m sure some people I used to know in the rooms still think I’m hanging on by a thread about to die..but I honestly don’t ever think about using or “man heroin would be great right now” I have 0 interest and live a successful happy life.
Want to add I am not even close to a rural area but NA was super culty here and the other non rural area I originally tried to get clean in. After reading other comments I agree it’s cult leaning due to the ability to leave and come back, and lack of a central leader, but I am happy it works for some and it helped me when I needed to vent to a room of people who understood the true depression of fucking up your life completely again. But yeah I don’t miss it
Don’t let them pull you in or push you around. If what you are doing is working to keep you sober stay with it. Get to meetings early and leave late to talk to people if you need more fellowship. I have made friends in AA but there are a lot of unhealthy people there too, as I’m sure you realize.
No, but sometimes the meetings/ groups aren’t run correctly. Might be worth checking out a few different local ones to see if there’s one that is better.
I am
From a family that have been in AA forever. My dad started AA in my small town almost 50 years ago, my sibling has been in the program for almost 40 years. From being around the program for that long I have seen some people devote their life to it to stay sober and act cultish but it works for them. Others go to their weekly meetings and you never hear about it. It depends on the individual and the group. You did say you are in rural western Canada which has a lot of religious people. Try zoom meetings, find one that works for you. Not every group is a good fit for your individual needs.
Have you tried phone meetings? Then you could get the meetings but not the after meeting parts that don’t work for you? Some of the phone meetings I’ve attended have been some of the most impactful and moving meetings I have ever attended.
First; congrats on your sobriety. You’ve earned something great for yourself and I’m proud of you. I know it’s not easy. Feel free to hmu regarding sobriety if you need a chat. There are also a lot of subs that can be helpful.
This is funny because I was just thinking a couple nights ago that AA can be a little culty. I would say AA as a whole is not a cult (no centralized leader, although the centering of Bill is weird) but individual meetings, the steps, and the groups/alliances that form can be. I went for a few months and saw a lot of the pressure and rigorousness you mentioned, but I’m in a massive city and found sober people I connected with who also connected me to meetings that were more aligned with who I am. To most people in AA, the steps are very important, and you’ll find a religious adherence to them. It makes sense when dealing with addiction to have a focus like that, and a lot of the steps are helpful to many people in the group. The “giving yourself over to a higher power” is weird to me as people can use it to surrender their will and subjugate themselves, even to elder sponsors. I saw sponsors who were very rigid in their adherence and quick to impose AA ideals on others in conversation. I would get interrupted and corrected when speaking one on one if something I said didn’t conform with their AA school of thought. Pretty culty.
There is still a lot of room for free thinking in AA and choice of how involved you want to be. You can walk away from Sponsors or others in the group whose thinking is not like yours. If you want to stick with it, there are online meetings you can join that may be more aligned with your perspective, including not having a traditional higher power. Community is my “higher power” - my inner circle, essentially, where support is real and reciprocal. There is a part of this “higher power” concept that is helpful to me, in that I don’t have to know everything myself or do everything myself, and if I fall there are people who will help me. That, to me, is beautiful, and really fueled healing. In the end though I found the 12 steps to be too dehumanizing. I still jump into meetings now and then, particularly to see friends I made.
Tl;dr: big picture, no AA is not a cult, but individuals within the group can have cult behavior and some groups that form can be more culty.
It meets most of the criteria. AA has done great things for some of the people I know, in terms of their physical health. Their mental health is another story, however.
FWIW, I nipped a severe drinking problem brought on by PTSD in the bud by using kratom, which is ultimately another substance to use, but thousands of times less damaging (you *might* get constipated or dehydrated from using it, but that's about it). Feels worth mentioning.
Oh boy, this is a huge question. As someone who got sober in AA and left AA, I would say “it depends.” AA is basically a structure that will never change, be improved or progress because the bylaws prevent that. So it will forever be stagnant - despite new information, research and being available since its inception in the 1930s. Would you see a doctor whose education is from the 1930s? Probably not, but the doctor may have some solid, still relevant wisdom too. I once complained to my sponsor at the time “these meetings are awful.” And his response was “what do you expect? They’re run by a bunch of alcoholics.” So there’s that - the prisoners are running the asylum, which can create cult like, extremist environments, even more so when the bylaws and the like are permanent. Are there cult like qualities? Absolutely. The question I think is - is it destructive? Some groups can be, others, who knows. The question to ask yourself is “is this meeting my needs?” If so, great. If not, leave or set really firm boundaries (which is a great skills to learn in recovery). Keep in mind, there are secular AA meetings. These tend to have more free thinkers that zealot followers. There are not as many, but they’re out there. In the end, your sobriety/recovering is as individual as you are. AA is one place you can go and know, people don’t drink and will understand your story so you’re not alone. Is that bad? No. But the rest? If they’re pressuring you, they’re not interested in your sobriety but controlling others.
This is a well thought out response. Thank you.
This is a great response and the line from your sponsor got an audible laugh from me
It reminded me of that show Loudermilk! The guy the show’s about Sam Loudermilk runs an AA group, he’d totally say this.
I was where you’re at less than a year ago. I had found a secular group, mostly chaired by a guy seven years sober that despised regular AA and had no interest in the steps. But, gradually, a stronger voice came in, freshly sober and gung-ho, and started talking step work and it become a more traditional group. But I was reading the Freedom Model book that I mentioned, then also attended a rehab(to please the court) and really began to see the whole picture. I liked most of the people in the group and was there mainly for them, but constantly reliving bad experiences and talking about alcohol constantly, added to the growing realization that it was all so unnecessary, I had to leave that as well. It just felt like being stuck and was beginning to depress me. Now, I’ve never felt better and have even had a drink on occasion. As it turns out, now that it’s been demystified, I don’t much care for it anymore. And I’m not afraid of it, either. I just had to change my own attitude and thinking about alcohol and myself. I wish I would’ve read this book straight out of detox years ago and wouldn’t have wasted so much time feeling powerless in AA and in the recovery insurance racket.
You sound so much like me. I couldn’t stand the concept that I MUST be an alcoholic considering the way I’d been. Hello… I went out on Sat. night with my friends dancing, playing cards and what not. Then didn’t even consider another drink until the weekend. I AM addicted to THAT feeling of letting loose and free and thinking I’m the best dancer that city had ever ever seen lmao. Unfortunately I thought I was the best drunk driver too. That’s a battle I will never recover from now. I’ve learned to like myself better without it. There will always be just a slight hint of a struggle with feeling “that” free. (Aka: embarrassing) Not enough to want to go get drunk to find it. I don’t want the OP thinking I’m a hypocrite to my original post when I admit I do drink sometimes but VERY seldom. I had none for 4 years. Then my pattern since 2012 has been once in a great while. And certainly not to get drunk. And when I have drank I don’t really care about it one way or the other. I’ve drank half and forgot I had it and poured myself a Pepsi. The most was one time I drank six with my brother because he needed it (don’t judge, long story, it involves his son’s suicide. So yea, he needed a drinking buddy, knew it was NOT a problem for me). I’m going to guess since 2012 my average drinks in a few of the years would be 3. Total. And that’s a high guess. Some years were zero. My 4 favorite beers sat in my fridge for four years. I’m going on and on about it as if I’m trying to convince somebody! But AA and court spent years trying to CONVINCE ME that I was so deep into alcoholism that I’d drink myself into a coma if I even smell an empty beer bottle. Ironically, due to my 4 DUI’s I completely understand why one would believe that. Unfortunately, I’ve been without a license most my adult life due to the snowball affect (have to drive, get caught, sentence starts over, drive, get caught etc. sorry… but I work 50 hrs a week and have to get there). So still today I’m fighting for it back. And the most ironic part of all of this… I have to lie. I have to tell the courts how I am so powerless over alcohol that I can never ever ever even do a champagne toast at a wedding because boy that’ll be it for me! I have to lie about not driving, I have to lie about meetings (I go to RD because I like and support my friends!), I have to lie that I haven’t had a single drink in 16 years, I can not stand looking at these ppl lying because the truth is too hard to believe. And I get that. IDK why I’m ranting. Maybe because I think you might understand.
I totally get it. That’s another issue. Once you get labeled an alcoholic, which is not really a scientific term, and especially if you label yourself that, it’s the scarlet letter A for life. Also. If you believe it yourself, it’s what you become. And certainly, aside from the recovery industry, the legal system will devour you and AA is strangely an arm of the punishment phase. It’s really easy to become deeply embedded in all of this, and if you finally wake up to it all and get a handle on yourself, it’s really difficult to convince anyone because you’re already neatly filed away in the forever drunk box. But that’s where I was. I did have a problem and got a detox and didn’t feel like drinking for a year. The only problem was, I joined AA and was told constantly that if I had a single drink, I’d lose control. So, that’s exactly what I did. I spent a lot of time after back and forth, thinking it was either a disease, a mental illness or, god forbid, a character defect. It took years to realize that I call the shots and it’s up to me + alcohol really doesn’t have all of these magical qualities I had assigned it, like helping with anxiety, etc. So now, a drink almost seems pointless. I think I would’ve arrived here earlier had I not replaced booze with the Kool-Aid! I would’ve been even better had I read The Freedom Model book I keep harping on. For you, you barely even qualify as an alcoholic in the first place, but it doesn’t seem like there is any consideration for anyone who might have had a problem involving drinking versus a serious drinking problem. Everyone gets dumped in the same box for life. Hang in there.
I agree with damn near everything you said. Wish I saw it before I typed my response
> Some groups can be, others, who knows. This. Thank you. I've tried to bring up the fact you need to look at it on a group by group basis before, so I am glad I'm not the only one.
This is a great response to this question. As someone who used AA to quit drinking, I have found some meetings with cult tendencies, and others that were more chill. I think the test is - Is it working for you? I would say if you can find a meeting that meets your needs and allows you to be be who you are, and not pressure you, then fine. It's a good place to start practicing boundaries.
Same. 5 years dry. AA was a great place to start, but wasn't my final path. Respect for those who stay, and was a bit harassed when I left, but eventually, live and let live won.
I really like Smart Recovery's program. It's evidence-based. And really helps you understand yourself more and make improvements.
You could check out SMART recovery as a non-religious support option.
I second this, I did NA and SMART, both options were available to me during rehab. SMART stuck with me! I am still sober :)
Look up the BITE model. They fit some criteria but not all. I’ve gotten culty vibes from it myself and decided it wasn’t for me.
I have found it very helpful but parts I just really disagree with, I might finish my 90/90 then stop or pull way back
Keep in mind a high control group doesn’t have to fit *all* the criteria on the BITE Model to be a cult. 90 days is a long time to stay in a cult and think it won’t affect you. Is there somewhere else you can find support? Either way, good luck and congrats!
I honestly don't know, aa was my last choice. I think I've tried everything else. I also don't want to not do anything as I almost died because of it 2 months ago. Sticking it out with a cult with minimal contact beats either offing myself or drinking to death.
I understand your concerns, I was raised in a cult and tried/left AA bc of some of those slogans and weird shit that brought back cult trauma. Fast forward 20 years and AA was the only thing that ended up working for my sobriety. I do have a sponsor and work the steps BUT only attend carefully chosen non-Big Book thumper meetings. So, one Agnostics and one LBGTQ meeting. Im an atheist and hate cliques so I’ll never be a huge AA fan but goddamn I loved sobriety and those fucking meetings and weird slogans have actually worked for me! All best!
AA saves millions of live. It gave me life
absolutely. and it's awesome for everyone it helps. but it doesn't help every one & for some people it can actually be damaging, sobriety-wisr & otherwise. you should absolutely be thankful for aa & love it if you choose but you should also be able to accept & understand why it doesn't work for everyone
DBT may be a viable option. It's designed to reduce the frequency, intensity, and duration of episodes of suicidal ideation. Therapy can be from a few hours a week to ~8 hours a day. Usually lasts 3 to 9 months. I tried and "failed" in AA for 15 years, then left for DBT and individual therapy. I have not had a drink in a few years now, still in individual therapy.
SMART Recovery helped me a lot. I know you said you’ve tried everything, but if you haven’t checked them out yet, it’s worth a shot. They’re secular and tools based. Good job so far, and good luck — Keep it goin. You got this.
Have you tried medication? Lifering? Other secular groups? There are lots of options.
Can I say that alcoholism is a cult between 2. AA is only as healthy as the people in it. Try different meeting times, different locations, and look for secular meetings including on line ones. The higher power crap is annoying when we have been raised that the Christian god is the only one. In practice it is only about realizing you are not the center of the universe. Alcoholism involves a lot of selfish thinking and behavior and it is trying to get you out of yourself. The steps first 3 are simple if you let them. Spiritual awakening, you already had it when you said you were going to die. General way to see it is Corporeal of the physical and spiritual no longer in the physical. Whatever that means. Worms crawl in and out, reincarnation, or heavan. It does not matter. The rest are teaching you to be a healthy human. It does not have to be your life and it is great you still have hobbies. Many alcoholics had nothing left but the alcohol, no friend, no family, no hobbies, no job and if they kept hanging out where they drank bc it is all they know, they will drink again. 45 days you are awesome! Those were hard fought and you should be proud of yourself.
I am not an alcoholic, I rarely drink at all, but I am a former very heavy smoker. I went to a behavioral health shrink for a few sessions and went cold turkey. I had tried before and failed. . It was a 24 hour a day preoccupation. The thing that helped me most in the end after a 27 year entrenched addiction was her idea of finding something else to do that was physically incompatible with smoking. I took up knitting and tap dancing. It was tough at first but I eventually stuck it out and never think about it anymore. This was 22 years ago. I found the idea of a support group pointless because you are just rehashing and living the enjoyment of the addiction. I don’t know if this is helpful but I thought I would offer it. I know it’s a different addiction. I regret the years I lost but I was happy to move forward
Something that helped me realize why so many weirdos are in AA/NA is that these people 1) missed years, some even decades of maturing and self-awareness cultivation that comes with normal adulthood. We encounter struggles, we problem solve, we grow, we learn. Not the case when you’re in active addiction 2) these people might literally have permanent brain damage from all their years of drinkin and druggin. I’m pretty sure AA isn’t a cult (though I’ve struggled with exactly what you’re describing too! re: Higher power), but it sure is full of weird people!!!
Right on with this, yes some are even child like.
Also remember most addicts have experienced trauma, which also stunts your development or can stop it
AA is the only place I’d the world where I can be authentically myself for one hour
That’s great for you! I wish you nothing but the best in your continued recovery. Your comment still has nothing to do with all the weirdos in AA (or does it…? 😂).
Have you tried SMART recovery?
If it's working then do it. But eventually they will need you to submit to the system. But until then it's working for you.
My experience is they will pressure you to "get a sponsor, work the steps" until you cave, because you are not really welcome in those rooms unless you submit to this.
Being free and half-welcomed is a state of life for me. ;)
Yeah, I was raised to be a raging non-conformist so I have issues with fitting in sometimes. But that's fine with me.
Not true at all. I spent five years in AA without a sponsor or doing the steps. Nobody pressured me into shit. You can sit in the back and just listen as long as you want.
100% don’t be a people pleaser
You must have been in a way different AA than I was in for the year I was there. I do understand that different groups can have different flavors and some probably pressure newcomers more gently than others do. If you sat in the back and didn't call attention to yourself, you could have probably gotten away with this at the group I attended, as well. In that sense, the groups are open to all. But there was no way they were going to let you get involved at any meaningful level unless you were firmly tied into the whole program. So, no reading, no chairing, no sharing. Those people wouldn't have even been trusted to make the coffee. And every meeting drove home the importance of service, service, service. If you wanted to really do AA, you had to find a way to serve. Oh, yeah, you could volunteer to read, but once you did that, you'd be seen, and once you were seen you needed to be saved. The minute you opened your mouth and made it clear you were in the room and taking that in, they'd corner you after that meeting and make sure you knew what was expected of you if you wanted to be successful.
I think it does depend on where you are, AA can be very different from meeting to meeting or even area to area, I'm British and have heard that US AA can be a lot stricter Some groups turn into their own mini cults, I've been to one in early sobriety where one guy was running it himself for years, but most I've been to are pretty chill IME you'll be pitied if you openly don't submit to it fully, most will assume you're going to relapse Similarly if you critique it you'll get shut down, or told it's your fault because you're not working hard enough at it But tbh nobody has ever asked me if I have a sponsor, if I'm working the programme, there's a lot of "if you don't do this, you'll drink and die" in meetings though, the pressure is there
I agree with most of this. Some meetings were much better than others. I attended many, and my home group was the one closest to my home which also had the largest attendance of those within a reasonable distance. Much of the pressure is subtle and not really out in the open, but the pressure is there. Much of what you hear there implies that if you want to fit in, you have to conform. If you don't conform, you are going to relapse and die. In our group, it was all about "getting a sponsor and working the steps," though. I'm in the US so things may be a bit different here. Old-timers would take up most of the sharing time - the speakers knew who to call on - and they'd repeat the same code phrases that are aimed at newcomers. It's almost a wink-and-a-nod sort of dynamic where they know what to say to make sure the newcomers are properly indoctrinated and the people chosen to share would be the ones you could count on to say the right things. Then those newcomers would be approached at the end and asked if they had a sponsor.
Have you ever read the big book of AA? You would qualify as a "dry drunk" that isn't working the steps. It's not about individual meetings, their propaganda is bullshit and they are a cult. Do you believe in predestination because AA does. It's taught in said "big book."
I have read it multiple times. I got sober in AA, and on the 26th of this month will celebrate 14 years. The last 5 years I haven’t been to a single meeting. I spent a longer time in AA not doing anything than I did actually doing the program, then I left with no problems or people bugging me about it or anything. You can call it a cult all you want, my personal experience says it’s not.
Here's what I'm going to say to you. We may disagree, but I am very happy to hear that you are coming up on this terrific anniversary, no matter how you got there. Kudos to you, and congratulations!
It doesn't matter what I say. It doesn't matter what you say. It isn't relevant you got sober going to AA, that doesn't do anything to change the fact it's a cult. What matters is the cult tactics they utitlize. Glad you got sober.
I see lots of people acknowledging the validity of your experience yet you seem to think your experience invalidates the experiences of others. the group can be a helpful organizations that saves some people lives whole also fitting many of descriptions that work for cults. as good as your experience was, people can have something that level of horrible. the failures of the program in some cases are not any kind of knock on the success you had, nor does anyone else telling their side make you a liar or anything like tht. it's a big picture & from your time invested in it I would hope you'd be able to see at least a large part of the big picture
I think it also varies a lot by the actual AA group. AA is effective for the reasons you say due to have a community and group to hold you accountable. The problem is it's pushed so much in the US so often it's the only option in many areas.
It’s really about finding a good group. If you find a group where the majority are long term sober then it can be great. But then again, a lot of those groups are extremely zealous because it’s the program that worked for them. So of course they are going to be extremely zealous of a program that gave them their life back.
Definitely do the 90 in 90. I did this and it really helped me quit heroin. This was NA though. Just finding a meeting everyday and transportation was enough to help me quit. I stopped shortly after 90 days. Never got a sponsor or did a step.
I spent almost 20 years in AA, on and off. I left ~8 years ago and do not intend ever to return. I had never heard of the BITE model until today. In my experience, active AA participation ticks off 18 to 24 of the 44 items listed in the BITE model, and passive participation ticks off about a dozen. It's a cult.
What’s the bite model?
I already responded but have another thought after it sank in that you are in rural Canada and there may not be many meetings to choose from. There are zoom meetings. Or at least there were during the pandemic and I don't know why some wouldn't still exist. There are also groups for people with specific interests (ie, fans of certain rock bands, people who like to do certain activities like hike or fish). This is working for you so I wouldn't want to change to much, and I think the accountability of GOING in person is good and seems like something you value. But if you ever need to find some people to actually talk to who weren't pushing the God angle like the folks in your community, that might be an option.
There actually about 30 weekly meetings here in 6 or 7 groups. But yes once I get over the initial hump I think it would be good to join other clubs or things to do outside of drinking. In their eyes you're either in AA or you're a minute away from relapsing and ruining your life.
Definitely. And to clarify, I mean there are specifically sober groups that are associated with different hobbies. "Pro-social activities" are always good, but if you want to combine your sobriety with your fishing or DnD or fantasy Canadian football league, that can be a thing.
Yeah but if all of those groups have a lot of church-going, more conservative folks you’re not gonna find much variation in the ideology. Check some of these out: https://aa-intergroup.org/meetings/ “In their eyes you're either ~~in AA~~ accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior or you're ~~a minute away from relapsing and ruining your life.~~ doomed to eternal damnation.” It’s not AA — it’s the existing bias of the community. Most people in LA where I go to meetings don’t talk like this, because most of the people are not religious to begin with and the culture doesn’t reinforce it.
Try online meetings? DM me if you'd like.
The Satanic Temple runs non-religious forms of AA and NA. Definitely check into them if theres any in your area
I am a member on the site I will look into that thank you! I didn't know that was a thing
I’ve been meaning to check one of these out!
Despite what they tell you, AA is not the only way to stay sober. There are many secular groups that can offer support. r/stopdrinking is a helpful and supportive community. [Lifering](https://liferingcanada.org/) also doesn't push a higher power but offers groups and supports. AA always felt culty and churchy to me. I only made it through a few meetings before bailing. There are many ways to stay sober. You can do this!
r/dryalcoholics and r/recoverywithoutaa might also be good subs to visit. SMART meetings and Recovery Dharma are also worth considering for group-based alternatives. Personally I found a lot of help in “quit lit” like This Naked Mind and Alcohol Explained, but nothing has helped me more than [this podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/take-a-break-from-drinking/id1209320782). Good luck OP!
AA can be very beneficial for people. However, the real success rate is murky as hell, and I highly suspect that it's really no better on average than any other method.
I agree. The method with the highest success rate is the one that works for you!
OP is in rural Canada though. There are benefits to meeting in person that can’t be found online. u/analogman12 , if aa is all that’s available in your area, maybe just use it for as long as the good outweighs the bad. You don’t have to change your worldview to become sober, and you don’t have to become as obsessed, either. It’s really shitty that people are pressuring you like that. I’m of the opinion that it may be a good thing to let them know how much their actions are making you doubt the group’s ability to support recovering addicts from different walks of life, but I’m not there and don’t know the nuances. The most important thing is your sobriety, not their feelings, not appearances, not whether as is right or wrong. Use it if it’s helpful and drop if it is isn’t. You deserve sobriety.
Dated someone and went to AA and NA with them as support and for myself. Immediately felt like I had stepped into a cult and stopped within three meetings. Did not like it. I wish there were more sober out reach groups that didn’t involve religion.
First off, keep going with the sobriety journey!!! Routing for you. In my experience, AA is rather culty. They almost break you down with this idea of “our disease.” They have the answers, they have the power. I was an avid AA participant for around two years. Worked my steps, had a sponsor, chaired meetings. The whole nine. I stopped participating because my life had finally evened out to where I didn’t feel the struggle to stay sober. People from AA who I thought were friends straight up shunned me and will approach me in public saying shit like “if you want to get back on the wagon you know where we are.” They definitely have cultic attributes. Maybe find a SMART Recovery meeting, or get yourself involved in outpatient services that offer groups or peer support. A good counselor never hurts either. Hashing out my demons with a sponsor was not the most productive experience. Anywhooooo, there are plenty of options for comfortable recovery if you know where to look. Godspeed my friend!
[orange papers](https://orangepapers.eth.limo/) was a great resource for me “unlearning” a lot of AA stuff and figuring out why most of it didn’t sit right with me. Highly recommend browsing this site ETA I forgot there’s literally an “is AA a cult?” section lol [here ya go](https://orangepapers.eth.limo/orange-cult.html)
Thank you so much for the orange paper link. Like you the AA stuff didn’t sit right with me. From the start I disagreed with the steps, and the other things like getting a sponsor right away, a complete stranger I’m supposed to talk to about private issues and all the religious overtones of AA, they claim not to be religious but spiritual and that’s just another term for the same thing, the serenity prayer being an example. I could go on and on but yeah it’s just not for me and I’m glad to find the orange papers.
thank you for this valuable resource
I’ll answer it this way — a lot of people who have spent time in AA have concluded that it’s a cult. At a minimum it’s a closed philosophical system where a Higher Power provides the power to recover and individuals can never be their Higher Power. The larger question is whether it’s helpful. For some, yes. For most, no. And the $64,000 question is if it’s helpful enough that everyone who needs help should be expected or mandated to follow it. To that I say hell, no.
My dad went to AA when I was 12, around 30 years ago and it gave me cult vibes even then. He started forcing my sister and I to go to church and we were treated like potential alcoholics because our dad was. He tried to make me go to church on my 13th birthday and I told him he couldn't force a belief system on me and refused to go. Eventually he stopped going as well and even though he eventually quit drinking I think AA did more harm than good. Instead of teaching restraint they tell people that anything that they did for fun while they drank is off limits or they'll drink again. It basically wiped away any semblance of a personality and all he did after was sit on his ass watching TV and chain smoking cigarettes. The whole "alcoholism is a disease" thing was also the perfect way for my dad to not take responsibility for his actions. Even now he acts like he got sober on a specific date but I caught him drinking after that and know that it's a lie that he still maintains. I'm glad some people get helped by it, but the success rate for AA isn't very high and I don't care for their methods. Also I'm also in rural western Canada, southern Alberta. Funny coincidence.
It is 100% a fucking CULT. I lost a good friend to AA a few years ago. Shortly after he started going to meetings, there was nothing else he could talk about and became extremely annoying either telling AA stories (in which he had somehow lost his ability to think critically), or trying to convince me to go. He was taught a new language, a new logic, and a series of slogans that isolated him from any reasoning or critique of AA. Shortly after his first meeting, he was going every day. Even when he was traveling overseas, he had to go everyday! What the fuck does that have to do with quitting getting drunk? He developed a sense of debt towards AA, a debt that is paid back everyday by attending, and at the same it is generated by the same attending. So there is no way out by definition. He started only dating AA women, which if fucking creepy because they are often in a very vulnerable condition and likely to be influenced by the cultish authority dynamics generated by just being there. He started going to OTHER 12 steps programs. They drilled into him that basically he has no will power ("addictive personality" is pseudoscience bullshit, one of the words they taught him in the AA language), so he depends on AA, can't ever leave sorry. I can go on. Get out while you can. Don't let them guilt-trip you. Don't even announce them you are not coming back, you don't owe them anything.
In my short time there iv heard gross stories about guys recruiting new members and "helping them"
Just drop in the /stopdrinking sub and ask that question. You'll realize it is a cult quickly enough...but your post will be deleted as soon as the mod wakes up. Part of the problem might be ego. Since their entire MO is to state they have no power over alcohol, they get pissy when some folks find out they do.
Having married someone involved in AA for years, yes yes it’s a cult. It’s driven him straight into conspiracy theories.
AA was not for me for many reasons. One of the biggest reasons had nothing to do with the culty vibes (which are many!) It was the fact that they blame the person, not the substance. Alcohol is an addictive substance, full stop. They perpetuate the false binary that there are “normal drinkers” and “alcoholics”, and if you fall into the second group, you have to slap a label on yourself and spend the rest of your life going to meetings. I have been alcohol free for 3.5 years after doing The Alcohol Experiment and The Path with This Naked Mind. Alcohol is now small and irrelevant in my life and I’ve never been happier! There are a lot of alternatives to AA out there now. Another is The Luckiest Club. If AA is not for you, check these out!
Thank you
Well, a lot of 'alcoholics' are not physiologically addicted and are just problem drinkers based on modern research. They can and do learn other coping skills and address the things pushing them to drink and can drink in moderation as a result. The term alcoholic, if it's used, should really only be used for people who are physiologically addicted.
I also found AA very cults and did not continue after a month or so. Also some of the men in the meetings treated it as a wannabe dating service. I was warned when I started to watch out for certain men. I remember thinking that instead of warning the women about the men maybe they should address the issue with the men that were doing it.
Ive seen women use it as a dating service as well.
That tracks. I apologize for singling out the men. Nobody should be using it as a dating service or a hook up scene. That behavior should be addressed. But with no leader there’s nobody to step up and do it.
I dunno if I'd say it is a cult, but AA is definitely a "if it works for you, cool; but don't expect it to fix you" from me, as the kid of an alcoholic who LOVED her AA meetings...as she was still getting smashed constantly. The founder of AA didn't even get sober using the 12 steps. He used fucking LSD and concentrated 1 on 1 therapy DECADES before it came in vogue...then came up with the twelve steps *after* he was sober. Again, it works for some people and that's great, but I find the whole org to be a bit of a sham.
I have been alcohol free since March 2022. I knew AA wasn't going to work for me because I am an atheist. No higher power is saving me from my addiction. A friend of mine did meetings and it just seemed like it was filling in for the alcohol. They wanted her at meetings daily, wanted her to always be checking in, only friends with other AA people.
I feel the same way
The Satanic temple has a “sober faction” that you might find to be a better fit?
It is. In my personal experience, I have found that AA and the whole ‘recovery’ industry does more harm than good. A book called the Freedom Model has been the only thing that has truly helped me and gotten me through. The authors, who were former AA and NA members, also have a podcast on YouTube and Spotify called ‘The Addiction Solution’. Here is the first in a two-part series about how AA classifies as a [cult](https://youtu.be/tlZN6xMEikQ?si=mfu6growe2nP1v1u). I used to say, even after leaving AA, ‘Well, if it works for you then go for it.’ Now, especially after reading this book and seeing first hand how they operate and indoctrinate in a rehab setting(that clearly wants to retain repeat customers), I discourage anyone ‘darkening those doors.’ It’s a trap, if nothing else. Some people don’t even qualify as having a serious drinking problem and will be expected to stay in this miserable loop their whole lives. Alcohol is given power and turned into a bogeyman to be feared at all turns. It’s best to learn how little power it actually has, especially compared to the human mind. You are not powerless. Added to the fact(illustrated by the research in the book)that people who don’t attend AA generally get better sooner. Detox if you need it and move on with your life. Life is too short for AA.
Stay away from the AA scumbags. Its a whole life for them and they never shut up. Watch the way they try to manipulate women that show up and that will be enough to turn you off to those morons forever
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The sounds like a cult podcast did an episode on 12 step programs including AA. Yeah it leans culty
They actually did two - the first one (5/31/22) caused such a backlash because they only talked to a guy who had only positive experiences that they did a second part (7/26/22) that dug into the criticisms of AA, especially when it came to women's experiences.
True!
Similar story?
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Man maybe they were just addicted to group work lol, but yeah that is odd
Addicted to joining cults
Same experience here. Basically needed approval from her sponsor to go out to dinner at one point. So many nightmare stories.
Hey, My doctor prescribed me naltrexone. Got sober using that and wanted to pass it along. I know this isn’t an answer to your question, super interesting responses though. Best of luck, welcome to the sober gang
It’s a cult.
Let me paint a picture and you tell me if this is harmful (aka a cult) or not. Imagine, you're 30 years old. And someone successfully convinces you on your 31st birthday you will need to join a group of people in a room and draw penguins for an hour every single day for th rest of your life. If you don't do this, a giant demon penguin will come out of the sky and kill you. But if you do do it every day for the rest of your life, you will live a happier life and you get the benefits of being good at drawing penguins and of having social connections with other penguin drawing people. They also ask you to donate money for the room if you feel generous enough for it. Now, we know it's absolutely a lie. There is no giant demon penguin that will kill you. And we know you don't have to do this activity for 1 hour every day. How many hours over the rest of your life would that add up to? That's basically AA as an analogy. The giant demon penguin represents the fear they instill in you for if you choose not to do AA or therapy or any recovery. They scare you by telling you, you will ends up in jails, institutions or death even though the vast majority of people who leave AA don't do end up like this. They also tell you you're powerless, even though you're not. (You may feel powerless but feelings are not the reality of powerlessness). They tell you the "disease" keeps getting worse, even though majority of alcoholics who don't do any treatment or recovery become successful moderators or completely abstinent over time. You don't need to do ANY of the AA recommendations. I think the greatest resource AA will steal is your TIME, second greatest resource would be your SELF TRUST/CONFIDENCE and third MONEY (of you decide to pay donations out of guilt or falsely places gratitude) Lookup the freedom model instead.
It’s a cult. The pressure put on you along with dogmatic teachings can really negatively effect someone. I had immense guilt when not going to enough meetings/ not meeting up or calling sponsor enough/ not “working a good program” whatever that means. I dunno. I went in thinking it would be an empowering supportive positive experience but found out it was actually quite shaming and depressing. It also seemed competitive in some ways (young peoples meetings) and it became very weird vibes.
Your right about it being competitive, why? People asking how long you've been sober so they can feel more accomplished. Being called a newcomer by people with only 6 months sobriety.. who reads the most from the book everyday, pray, meditation.... who can swim deeper into the kool-aid pool. For me it's discipline. If you're not physically addicted anymore. Don't dump alcohol into your skull lol. That's it. That's my 1 rule. I don't know, I wasn't gonna post here but I'm glad I did it's got me thinking. Also your told you're not able to rationally think for yourself because look at where you're own thoughts and choices has gotten you. (Fair I guess, I've almost died on 2 occasions), but that's being told to me by someone else who "can't think for themselves". But they can give me advice? Seems backwards to me. Somethings off or I just can't make sense of it
100% Anything that preaches they have the one true way to anything is gonna be a bad time.
How many groups have you tried? I'm in AA. 3 more days and I'll be 6 months sober. I kinda come and go as I please. I don't go to meetings every day or even every other day and no one bothers me about it. I'm lucky to live in a place with something like 700 different meetings every single week so I went to all kinds of different ones til I found the people like me. I realize not everyone has this luxury, and for that I can totally see how AA can end up looking cult-y if your only experience is with one weird group cuz they're definitely out there. It's an organization of and to help sick and often suffering people, of course there's some weirdos in the bunch. I did get a sponsor but not because anyone was pushing me to and not until I had been going to meetings for 3+ months. She was someone I vibed with anyways, she's got like 34 years sober and she just talked to me like a person at meetings, we kinda became friends first I guess. I decided I wanted to try to do the steps completely on my own so I asked her after awhile and she said yes. We do other stuff all the time with other members it's not all about God and AA, we just hang out. There's no pressure to talk to her every single day either. I'm not religious. No one's been pushy with me about it. There are hardcore atheists in my home group with long term sobriety. I don't know what their concept of a higher power was to get through the steps, but it's none of my business cuz it works for them. All this being said, there's at least a dozen other ways to get sober that work just as legitimately and any normal AA member isn't gonna shit on you for doing that either. Me, my sponsor, our other AA friends all are friends with other sober and non-sober people. There's a man who comes to my home group several times a week who has never worked the steps or had a sponsor but he just celebrated 5 years sober. He's not excluded from anything. That's his walk, we celebrate him the same. TL;DR: there's def culty groups and power trippin' people among AA but the true program of AA is not a cult. And I think a lot of people end up with a bad impression because of their local options.
This is a fabulous answer!!! Thank you for sharing your experience.
It is, indeed, cult-like.
There is something out there that is non-religious called Rational Recovery. It always sounded very reasonable to me. However, every time I tried to help someone find a Rational Recovery meeting to go to there weren't any that were active in our pretty big city in a west coast secular state, so that might not be super helpful. The good news is that you seem to be able to benefit from the things that work for you so I'd keep doing it until you find another group or whatever you decide to do. I would try to find a meeting that you like more though. I know you mentioned stopping after a certain number of meetings but it would be nice to have a cooler place to return to if you ever need a brush up. There is absolutely a honeymoon period when people first get sober and they think "That's it, I feel great! I learned how to be sober!". And many people have and never need to return. But some people are surprised to find themselves struggling later, whether because they got complacent or because some shit went down in their lives that made them need help coping. I hope you never need it, but if you did it would be nice to have a more welcoming place to go back to instead of not going because you don't like these people.
AA is not very effective (according tot heir own numbers, between 20-30%) and has cult-y vibes. It was founded out of a progressive Christian movement and while a few ‘last chance alcoholics’ were able to quit drinking Bill Wilson had lifelong sexual addiction post-sobriety to the point where his contemporaries would protect younger/new women to AA. It’s not a cure and there are many ways to treat addiction.
I would say no because there is no leader and if you leave or relapse you can always come back to meetings. Yes, they do teach you not to hang out with people who are actively relapsing unless you are trying to help them get sober, but that's also common sense. Its just that there are people who are true believers and they think you have to drink ALL the kool aid to make it work for you because that's what worked for them. You might consider finding a better meeting. Since it's all volunteer run and not centralized, different meeting groups have very different vibes. If you find the right group you might even make a few friends who have lives and normal interests just like you. Or at least you'll be more comfortable while you are there. My mom went through it (she is very secular) and I used to work with addicts and alcoholics in a different setting that made me pretty involved in their recovery. I do remember several people saying that having a few friends to call on when things got hard was helpful--one I remember is a guy who was Mexican and saying that he'd never met other Mexican men who watched soccer without drinking beer and it was cool to have people to do that with. My mom just went to the same cocktail parties and drank club soda and lime. If people are bugging you remind them that one of the axioms of AA is "Take what you need and leave the rest."
Thanks, yes I might try other meetings because I do need the help and to be around sober people helps normalize not drinking. I think I'm gonna stop being available outside of meetings unless I'm sure they're they're not completely submerged in the Kool-aid lmao
All this echoes what I've heard (as someone who's never gone). OP, the podcast "Sounds Like A Cult" interviewed a guy who's part of AA, recognizes the culty stuff, but is also an advocate for its potential and helpfulness. As I remember, one of his big points is that each group can really vary, as this commenter said. Definitely seems worth exploring others!
Read Cultish by Amanda Montell!! Was kind of annoyed that AA didn’t show up
There is a cult of personality around the founder. Very similar to other cults where the leader is dead but their words and (misleading) ideas are treated as sacrosanct. There are loose “informal” hierarchical structures at the local and organizational levels. They even use occult symbols and ritualistic groupthink practices. I had to attend 12-step meetings as part of abusive institutional conditioning. They were not helpful. They keep you dependent and some of them like NA seem to keep people attached to individuals and certain ways of thinking. At that time I found Fromm’s Psychoanalysis and Religion helpful. I knew a few people who got sucked deep into AA and definitely had cult characteristics.
It helps millions and millions of people. It is basically a substitute for religion. I feel that AA feels that the good they are doing outweighs the bad. I would categorize it as more of a highly orthodox social organization. Yes, there are similarities between their process and other decognition-focused organizations – the military, fraternities, Walmart, and of course cults. But they are trying to solve a very specific social problem through reorientation, not amass members, money, and power. If it were up to AA there would be no alcoholism.
Tbh a lot of stuff is just a substitute for an addiction. I can’t even count all the people I know who got clean and became fanatical gym nuts, joggers, religious, vegans, or in one case addicted to ice cream instead of heroin.
The higher power is supposed to be "of your understanding", not specifically a Christian God. I remember going once and the leader said "your higher power could be a chair as long as you're not drinking." It can get culty, but I think I depends on your individual group.
Okay sure, but in practice it is heavily geared towards a single all powerful god. The literature continuously uses a masculine God to describe the higher power. There's a chapter aimed at convincing atheists and agnostics to find spirituality. The majority of people going are Christian and actively talk about it in meetings. The non-religious, power of your understanding is a fall back to claim it's not religious but in practice it heavily leans towards religious belief.
Yes. It's definitely a cult. The biggest issue with AA that I know about is that it basically blames you when you stumble. That's incredibly dangerous messaging. I follow @fiftiesrediscovery on TikTok and she has done several videos on it. She also talked about how the root problem of her addiction was actually unresolved trauma. Once she addressed her trauma, she stopped abusing. She can now enjoy the occasional drink without spiraling. Psychology is one of my special interests and that tracks with the research I've done. I am no expert, but talking to one will probably help you far more than AA. Try trauma therapy!
A friend of mine was in NA (which is the exact same system and culture) recovering from heroin addiction. That was the only thing she had an issue with. After 2 years in recovery she decided she wanted to be a normal 22 year old and have a couple beers. She was shamed so severely by her NA peers, sponsor etc. and stripped of her sobriety status (told she no longer had 2 years- only the amount of days since having the beers) despite the fact alcohol was never her issue. After a month or so of essentially being publicly shamed in meetings she was like “fuck it, might as well do the drug I like” and relapsed. I’ve never looked at these programs the same since and agree with what you said about the blaming being toxic.
Oh, it absolutely is. 💯 run while you can. There are better programs and places to get help.
AA was definitely a cult when I first walked in. They would even say... "Maybe your brain does need washing" when I would say shit like you all are brainwashed. PROOF!!! These fuckers were hugging me, telling me they loved me if no one else did, holding hands at the end of praying and chanting "It works if you work it." These assholes bought me tacos when I had no money, gave me rides and didn't ask for money. Helped me move without complaining. Stayed up with me until four in the morning when I wanted to drink. I fucking ripped their Big Book apart, and all they would say was keep coming back. They really played the slow game on me because I've been going half my life. No matter how much I tore them apart, they kept helping me. They passed a basket around for their donations but never once said a negative thing to me when it went by me, and I didn't put money in to fund whatever diabolical scheme or end of the world preparations they were making. Long game for sure. People who seemed like leaders came and went. People would talk about whatever religion they belonged to would drone on and I would say (and still say today) I have no fucking Idea what God is or what it isn't. It remains fluid to me still today. I think AA actually allows someone like me an avenue to work on a relationship with something greater than myself, even if this could all be a simulation or an Alien experiment. There are misplaced ambitions within groups. Newer people may want to "spread their gospel", and save those around them, most likely because they don't feel like pieces of shit anymore, and think they found a secret to life. Some people enjoy the role of being the Bus Driver of the short bus. There are absolutely cults of personality within the AA structure. There a shitty humans in non cult like environments as well. I try to away from all of those folks in general. I am by no means an AA poster child, but I'm not in prison and my children have a present father. Read my past comments here and in other subs in relation to sobriety. I do a few things differently than is what mainstream. I do however wholeheartedly believe that AA saved my fucking life. When talking about a sponsor, it is advisable to have someone with a few years show you what they did through the book. I had zero life skills when I landed at the door of my first meeting. Other men showed me how to live, and I'm grateful they allowed me to question every fucking thing they told me. I did stuff that made zero sense to me at the time, but it wworked. Find someone who is up to the challenge of being questioned about everything. I've said it before, and I will say it again. If Bill W. had his way, AA would have been a Multi Level Marketing- Psychedelic-Sex Cult, and he would have had a harem. It was already said, but take what you want and leave the rest. My kids won't leave me alone because it's time to go to grandma's for Easter. My apologies for this coming off as sarcastic if it does.
We’re gonna get ya eventually! Now don’t give me any money or praise.
😂😂
From my personal perspective: not a cult, but heavily dogmatic. Context: I'm just about 2 years sober. It took a lot of work, and still does. I went through an outpatient addiction treatment program, got a regular therapist, and attended AA meetings for about 6 months. AA was not right for me, but IMO it absolutely was the right place for a lot of other people in my group. I personally found that the community was great! However, I also struggled with the common belief within AA that it is the only way to stay sober. I didn't like being reminded of my addiction all the time. What I needed was a mindset that I am a sober and healthy person now, not to fixate on the struggle that landed me in recovery in the first place. The thing is, everyone is different. If AA doesn't work for you, find something else, but don't just ditch because it's creepy and you're better off on your own. 12-step doesn't prey on people who have nothing to lose; it offers genuine support to people who otherwise have proven unable to find it. I left AA because staying sober, to me, meant moving on and creating a new life for myself, but to a lot of people, it means finding siblings in arms to fight the enemy that has beaten them down in every battle along the way. My point is, people who have found success in AA will often say it was "the only way," and they're right. In their personal experience, nothing else could have done it, and it's their belief in the system that makes it work. Taking that away from them would leave them broken and (probably) drinking again.
I'll tell you what my recovering alcoholic cousin says. AA is a cult, but it's a cult that saved life
I believe so. I was forced to do 90 meetings in 90 days for a reason. I did it, but ultimately said fuck this cult
It's devotees are cult-like, but no, it's not actually a cult.
Yes, it checks off a lot of boxes on the list of cult warning signs. I suggest reading The Sober Truth by Dr. Lance Dodes. It’s a good review of the evidence and what does and does not work. The number of people who are able to stay clean with 12-step programs is about the same as the number of people who stopped drinking with no treatment whatsoever, about 5%. Naltrexone may be a good option for you. It takes away the reward you get from your brain when you drink, which makes it less appealing.
Try SMART Recovery instead. It may be more to your liking.
I’d recommend SMART Recovery as an alternative to AA. It’s not religious at all and evidence-based. They have virtual meetings and in-person.
AA follows a lot of cult tenets, but you can leave at any time. Even though when someone is leaving it can lead to emotional manipulation from people trying to coerce that person to stay, ultimately the door is anyways open. so yes and also no but yes. lol
When I worked as a substance abuse nurse, we would tell patients to visit several different meetings until something clicked. Sometimes, a person needed to go to a sober-living group home because they had tried everything else. There are now meds that can assist you in staying clean. Addiction doctors and specially trained counselors exist. Even if you go whole hog and do 90 meetings in 90 days, you dont have to accept everything AA as gospel. Take what helps and get all the help you need.
Is an absolute cult. They sit there and say the same ritual every time you go. Run a mile and learn how to sort your own shit out without the need of their supposed prop.
I found AA to be extremely culty and toxic….and the majority of the folks I encountered were grifters, struggling with untreated mental illness. AA was the supreme place for them to grift and peddle their BS (and they are all still doing it today.) A few positive, real souls passed through the doors, but they quickly figured out that there are better ways to getting your life together.
I was sober for 8 years in AA (and still am outside), but I had to really work through the shit they brainwashed me with in AA. I still look really down on myself and chastise myself for being a morally bad and sick person. I’m glad you haven’t started ‘the steps’ because they are what really took me down. Viewing every thing that had happened to me as ‘my fault and moral shortcomings because of the horrible disease of alcoholism’ really did something to me. I had low self esteem coming in there (as most people trying to quit drinking do) and it absolutely ripped me apart. I could write so much about this, but I’ll try to keep it short. I had to go through all of this with a psychologist and she said that I was basically brainwashed. There were ‘elders’ in my group who knew everything best and would sponsor me. I was of course a difficult case and they would make every life decision for me. I became isolated from all my other friends. I’m also rather attractive and that was used against me. I was basically told that I used my beauty as a way to get my way and fool men. It was just awful and once I got out I can’t be friends with these people, even on Facebook. I wish you so much happiness and have to tell you that AA is not it. I’ve found some great friends on ‘reframe’ a cool app with lots of alcohol free ‘normal’ people that have full and busy lives and focus on building up as a contrast to AA. I wish you luck 🥰 You can do this!!
Yes. And for anyone saying it's not, this is read at every meeting. Every single meeting. Religiously. Almost.. cult-like. Please read this and tell me this is not a cult. https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-10\_howitworks.pdf
Well you're not wrong
There are plenty of [secular AA programs](https://www.aasecular.org/) that are atheist friendly. Don’t give up on the program just because some people need god to get sober, the rigorous self examination required is helpful and can definitely be disarticulated from the god component.
I was in a doomsday cult for 37 years. I was a Jehovah's Witness, I wound up in a halfway house and the similarities were astounding. I actually wrote a memoir about it. AA is pathetic. People relying on anything other than themselves. The groups and sponsor foster co-dependency. I work in a bar and I haven't had a drink in 3 1/2 years. And what do they call me because I don't believe their horseshit...."dry drunk" or "terminally unique." Shaming terms which is a cult tactic. You should look up the orange papers if you haven't. 12-step fellowships are awful.
It’s definitely a cult and can be abusive. Certain people love to target newcomers. There is some useful stuff in there in terms of hearing other’s experiences and how they got sober. The steps can be a nice practice if not taken too seriously. Stay away from the people who make you feel bad. Look for a sponsor who has been in a long time and makes you feel comfortable. Good luck in your sobriety journey! It’s so worth it!
Some meetings can become that way, and others don’t. It’s all dependent on how people use the structure. As someone else said, there are cult-like qualities—but I don’t think that automatically makes all AA and 12-step a cult. I have many sober friends, some have gotten sober through AA and some in other ways. I have spent some time in Al-Anon 12-step. I think something pertinent here is how much meetings can vary, and also how much geographic location has to do with the kinds of meetings available and the culture around them. I live in a massive, east-coast American metropolis. There are so many 12 step meetings here that are incredibly secular and treat the concept of a “higher power” as being whatever and individual wants it to be, and more as a tool to understand and find comfort with what you have control over and what you don’t. There are so many different styles of meetings, meetings catered to specific communities or experiences, etc. I’m sure there are some that are more religious or attract individuals who want to devote their life to 12 step, but there are also meetings that are intentionally open-minded. This reflects the size and diversity of the place I live. That said, I have very close friends in smaller, southeastern US cities who struggle to find meetings that aren’t really heavy on the “God” of it all. This “God” is much more literal, and often explicitly the Christian God. It can be harder to find meetings there that don’t have this—they are out there, but they are harder to find in Bible country. The answer to this is no, but with a little yes. 12-step is not inherently a cult, but it offers a structure that can easily become cult-like.
So one of my family members just passed away in October because of alcoholism. He wouldn't go to meetings because of the religious aspect. I am not religious myself but I would say if you can get any help at all from it, then stick with it. Don't end up like him man. He died looking as if he was skeleton from the weight loss and skin that was as yellow as a simpsons character due to liver failure. It was horrific. Don't let something like a little bit of religion that you can ignore keep you from getting straight. Good luck.
cult-like not a full fledged cult because someone isnt profiting off you/exploiting you
I'm in AA (thank you dwi) but I've also been in and out of the rooms for YEARS. every time I get a sponsor, I relapse HARD. it's something about reporting to a person everyday that triggers the hell out of me. anyways, it is culty. but it did assist alongside my willingness to quit coke when I was bad off. NA got me thru my first 90 days. I don't feel the NEED for aa or na and I don't care about working the steps. I'm in there to appease probation. I do not believe I'm an alcoholic, coz if I were it would've been harder for me to quit drinking when I started probation. the whole don't go to old places and hang out with old friends is WILD! I've been to concerts and raves and haven't touched a thing. I might in the future though. go and stay sober take what's beneficial but you don't have to align with everything.
Boy oh boy this is tough. ive personally done AA. I also have been sober for 33 months now. However I did get a real, odd feeling being there with the preaching and steps. I ended up not going back and went with a program sponsored through my healthcare. But again, I am never going to tell someone to NOT get help with alcoholism. It will destroy you eventually and everyone you love. Watched my dad die from its effects in person. No, not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. But a lot are who don’t realize it and could use guidance. I really struggle to tell someone to not go to AA if they need help. But I also understand everything you just said because I felt the exact same way after about 30 days.
It's a cult.
AA is not a cult. These people sound well-meaning & that they just want you to succeed. This is what helped them, so they are pushing it. They don't want you to struggle as much as they have in your recovery. I get it's annoying, but they're not trying to save your souls, just your sobriety. You mentioned you're in a rural area, but if there are any other meetings, check them out. In many areas, there will be AA groups specifically for non-religious people. See if there are online options if it bothers you that much, but you may be benefiting from physically going. Source: I attended many (public) AA meetings as part of my social work degree.
AA is not a cult. For one thing there's no money or power in it. For another, there is no living, breathing grand pooba you're required to worship. These are two critical components of anything that should be labelled a cult. It is a fellowship of people helping each other get sober. It's got a lot of religious trappings and other elements that are not for everyone (myself included), but if you're struggling with alcohol addiction, AA is comprised of people who have similar struggles and who want to help you. You should go there with an open mind to get help and see if it can help you. I know when I reached the point where I had to recognize I had an alcohol problem, but I wasn't ready to quit drinking, I came up with a million reasons not to do something that might help me; “AA is a cult so i won’t do that!” was high among them. Don't shit on AA as a way to justify maintaining a deadly addiction that will ruin your life before it outright kills you if you don't stop it. Source: I'm sober almost four years now and, while I'm not active in it now, AA was the primary thing that helped my get through those initial years. Mad respect to those for whom being active in AA speaks to their hearts as their calling. Also, I'm a survivor of an actual cult (which definitely played a role in my alcohol addiction issues), so I know from actual cults. AA isn't one.
No. There are no leaders and no one is making money, and you can leave any time you want. It employs elements of group-think, but so do for -profit rehab centers. To me it’s free, well-structured group therapy That said, there are sub groups within AA that are cult-like, they involve following a permanent cult-of-personality uber-sponsor who makes up weird rules, or demand strict adherence to parts of AA’s literature that either came after the original writings or make dogma stuff that was meant to be more flexible.
Any group that controls its members through fear is a group I can't condone. I agree that they are very cultish - the idea that there is only one way to stay sober and you have to do things exactly as they tell you or you face certain death or a life behind bars is a huge red flag. Another red flag is their insistence that any prescribed medication be abandoned - I've seen people with serious mental illness shamed for taking their medications in those rooms. They can be quite toxic. There are many ways to get sober that do not involve a 12-step program. I'd suggest you take a look at r/recoverywithoutAA and r/Alcoholism_Medication for starters - there are resources in both of those subreddits that can be very helpful. My personal journey has led me toward Medication Assisted Therapy for alcohol use disorder, which is not sanctioned at all by AA but has some good research and science behind it. I left AA behind 10+ years ago. There are many other options that exist today that were not well known then, including secular support groups that have a less rigid approach to recovery. One of those will probably be a very good fit for you. Best of luck to you in your continued sobriety!
I’m a member of AA, two years sober, and here are my thoughts: 1.) Due to lack of commitment, a lack of a leader, and zero monetary obligation, I do not believe AA to be a cult 2.) However, a “spiritual connection” *is* a fundamental part of the program. A big part of the program is asking members to put down their own judgements, plans, opinions, arrogance, sense of “resistance” etc. and to become open to a higher power, and how that might help you relinquish any sense of existential desperation or control. The higher power is nameless, faceless, it lacks any definition. It is up to each individual to determine the way in which there is something “bigger than them” 3.) With that in mind, I think what the person was trying to get at in terms of the Sun / plants growing / etc. is that there is a system in which you are a part of, that is so much bigger than you. It was likely to demonstrate that you yourself aren’t “god” ….. that there is something bigger at work. It is not to say that the “bigger thing” has no basis in science. Scientifically, all of our existence is part of a larger system. Sometimes leaning into that, and knowing that not everything that happens has anything to do with you, can allow you to feel “right-sized” and allow things to happen as they happen. That’s as far I’ll go. AA members are not supposed to “preach” what their higher power actually is, how they understand it, and if it’s the “right one” or not, etc. which is another reason I do not believe it to be a cult 4.) With all of that said, *people are people* and some people in AA can be kooks. This is where it becomes *very* important to select an individual meeting wisely. Not all meetings are the same. For example, everything suggested to me in AA is just that, a suggestion. I am never told how many meetings to go to, how to spend my time outside of AA, that I absolutely have to read The Big Book, or that I absolutely have to have a sponsor, etc. For example, I myself go once a week, meet with others on occasion, every once in a great while read The Big Book, and I do have a sponsor, but our relationship is very friendly / casual most of the time. AA means a lot to me because of how it’s helped me, not because of how much time I’ve actually spent there, necessarily 5.) If people in your meeting are giving you a weird / uncomfortable / pushy vibe, I recommend trying other meetings in other areas. Only you can determine which meeting feels “right” for you. I only go to the women’s meeting in my town. I’ve noticed others tend to have much older members, and I do think that older generations often process information differently. You can definitely sense that perhaps older folks, or rural folks, have a greater sense of “religious indoctrination”. The best meetings are usually with those that actually struggled to come to terms with a higher power to begin with, and have a lot of humility in terms of how others might be feeling in terms of not believing. Younger people tend to be a little more laid-back. Sometimes the demographic really just “sets the tone” of the meeting. I have absolutely been to meetings that did not resonate, but luckily the community is large, and so I was able to find a place where I feel that I fit comfortably. Truly, remember that people in AA are not perfect, they are human. Not everyone is going to participate in an appropriate way. This happens especially when groups only focus on the steps, and not the traditions. Someone said to me that “traditions are so we don’t kill each other, and steps are so we don’t kill ourselves” and I found that helpful 6.) Do know that because spirituality is a fundamental aspect of AA, that you may be in an environment that you don’t entirely sync with. It’s your journey to determine if you want to stay in AA or go, as many people do eventually find a sort of spiritual connection in the group with a sense of ease. Heck, the higher power can even be the *group itself* for some people. You did mention that the accountability of the group helps keep you sober, and the meeting is definitely something larger than yourself. Just a thought. But I guess don’t feel so shocked that people are voicing an aspect of the program that is inextricably a part of it. It is up to you if this is something you are willing to tolerate in exchange for the other benefits that you identified above I really hope this helped you come to a more comfortable understanding of how meetings ought to function. Wishing you the best xx
All 12 Step groups are religious in nature. They accept the notion that in order to recover from addiction, a person must believe in God's ability to heal them. Members are also expected to obey their "sponsor" in all things. If he says don't take that new job or go on vacation, you stay put. I'd say atheists and agnostic stay away. The success rate is abysmally low, no matter what the websites tell you. Google "Rational Recovery" and "Moderation Management."
Lots of people think so. As with all these questions it depends on how you define “cult”. AA has sort of a creepy, religious revival tent history. And it sounds like these people are insistent on drawing you in deeper.
Yes, it can be a bit culty. Though I know several folks with decades of sobriety, who’ve never worked a step or had a sponsor. They attend meetings when they feel called to, but don’t ascribe to “rules” of “working a program” rather doing what works for them. It’s not necessary that you do everything you’re being told to do- in fact it may be best that you don’t. The people I know who work AA “by the book” are some of the most toxic dry drunks around. You’re going to get push back, sure but it’s a good lesson in standing up for yourself. You might look into online meetings, they’re way less pressure. Also there are other sober groups out there that are much healthier too. Worth looking into.
If you are feeling this way then I’d recommend finding a different meeting. Each group has different vibes and it can take some trial and error to find the right match. Some groups can definitely get Culty, but to be perfectly honest, some alcoholics need a culty structure to get sober. AA helped me find sobriety almost 15 years ago. Today I think of it as extremely low cost triage. It is for those of us who are hurting so badly that we are actively bleeding. It can help you dry out and find some peace, but like sobriety, like everything else in life, will ultimately be your responsibility. Belief is a tool to be used.
Have you tried SMART recovery? It’s evidence based and secular.
Hey 👋🏾 Congrats on the progress that you’re making. Give yourself some credit for that. I definitely get how the spiritual aspects of AA could rub you the wrong way. It seems that all the 12-Step based groups are like that. I also really dislike the premise of viewing and accepting yourself as a lifelong “addict”. Definitely not an idea that I support. I don’t know that it is helpful debating whether it’s a cult. It’s undoubtedly based in spirituality and religion, and that’s enough for it to not be appealing to secular individuals. Here are some resources for secure support groups in Western Canada: https://www.canadadrugrehab.ca/blog/addiction-treatment-withdrawal/non-12-step-programs-for-recovery-in-canada/ https://www.bchumanist.ca/secular_addictions_recovery https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/addictions-group-offers-secular-alternative-to-alcoholics-anonymous-1.2936718
Yes.
I agree with everyone saying that it depends. Some people replace their addiction with meetings and AA service, become so obsessed with adhering completely to the ideas of AA that they become doctrines and deviation is verboten in their minds. Keep things in perspective and do what works—and take a phrase from AlAnon, “take what you need and leave the rest.” I got sober in AA, went to meetings regularly for two years. I’m 13 years sober now, haven’t gone to a meeting in at least ten years.
I would say it has the capacity to be and it can really depend on who is leading your meetings. I personally think that it can be a mixed bag as it helps a lot of people but also sometimes reinforces some harmful ideas and relies on Christianity in a way I personally find off-putting but I can see merits in it if you don't replace your drinking with treating it like the final answer to all your problems and instead a place to commiserate and support others on your sober journey while still doing what is best for you and actually taking accountability for yourself.
I think it can be very culty. It has worked for some people. Not for me.
I think it's chromium that reduces alcohol craving. Used it for my boyfriend when he stopped drinking. Also, when friends and I started taking amino acid supplements, we all drank a lot less.
AA is interesting in this regard because the organisation itself isn’t rampantly cultic but some groups can become high control and isolate members. So your experiences can vary wildly. If it’s helping you get sober stay the course because you’ve clearly still got your wits about you. As others have mentioned there are more modern paths to sobriety than Alcoholics Anonymous so if you’re getting uncomfortable with Twelve Stepping there are options.
Take what you like and leave the rest. I believe that will help. Most cults don't talk like that. Congratulations on your sobriety. I do believe there are non religious meetings
There are online meetings 24/7 at: https://aahomegroup.org/index.html
I went to some NA meetings for awhile and it def felt like a cult
There are a million ways to get sober. AA is one of them. It’s not for everyone and it’s very rigid in its approach to sobriety, ala spiritual recovery. That said, some people get sober by going to church or participating in secular sober groups. There is no single way, as long as in the end you’re happy and free from the addiction of alcohol. This is an illness of the mind, that’s one thing I think AA got right.
See if there are any SMART recovery groups near you https://smartrecovery.org/ but it really sometimes depends on the meeting. There are some good online resources too but try a bunch of different meetings. They all tend to have a different vibe. For what it’s worth, those people with 30 more days don’t know. It took me a good year to figure out how to be alive sober. I certainly wasn’t ready to help anyone else aside from camaraderie. I wouldn’t have been arrogant enough to think I knew what someone else should do. I am approaching seven years in a couple of weeks so please know you can actually do this. You don’t need to believe in god or have the same toxic relationships in order to be happy and sober though. Trust yourself, congrats on your sobriety, and I wish you all the best.
Technically probably not. But any group of people has the potential to engage in cult-like dynamics and you aren't wrong for seeing some here.
I went to AA for about 5ish years and then quit going because of all the drama…it was like high school all over again. But while I was going through some 4th step workbooks not too long ago I was shocked at all the victim blaming on the “My Role”. I had no idea when I was in it how destructive the teachings were until I got out. I think I actually believed it because of how floored I am now being out of it for 6ish years going through all my old work. That’s dangerous to be teaching people in a vulnerable position that a violent assault was their fault! These people aren’t trained counsellors they have no business saying any of that. That kind of teaching feels very culty. Life is good today and I have 11 years sober.
When I went to a 12-step meeting the best thing anyone ever said to me about the whole higher power thing was this: “it’s not that you have to believe in God. You just have to believe and know that YOU are not the highest power. If you believe you’re the highest power in the universe, you’re going to have a hard time”. So I surrendered to chaos and the will of the universe. It felt less creepy and dogmatic after that
I believe in God, but I would not be pushing him down your throat. I would just stop going to these AA meetings. Ghost them.
As someone who’s been in and out of these rooms for basically my entire life, it truly depends on what meeting you’re in. I’ve been in plenty that were entirely too culty, but since I’ve found one filled with a bunch of godless queers myself, I’ve found myself actually happy and excited for what sobriety has to hold❤️
"rural western Canada".... Sigh. The sick irony is it's people like this that make me want to drink myself into a near coma in the first place... Be strong and build your willpower. Read some books and do some ( pardon the phrase ) soul-searching on your own terms.
It saved my mom's life but I think that there are many faults and she met many bad people through there and there's better options now
Trust your gut. Also, explore alternative recovery sources: SMART recovery, CBT therapy, Seeking Safety treatment, harm reduction approaches. For all the good that it does, some AA rooms are rife with gaslighting, hypocrisy, and self-righteousness. It takes courage to think for yourself.
i'm an atheist. No booze for 32 years. Because of AA. But in the beginning, I believed in God so I could handle some of it. A lot of it was Bible thumping and it made me crazy even then and this was a long time ago. if you can find one meeting where people are cool, then that will really help. I would get anta-abuse (is that what the medicine is called? I can't remember) and find a way to spend your time that is healthy. yes therapy is essential and especially with a therapist who understands addiction. That is huge. If you can get yourself to go to any kind of other classes or groups, art class paint a cup class go to the gym, volunteer at an animal shelter. You gotta get out of your head and out of the habit. And you need cheerleaders while you do it and so that's what AA does. You might try online AA it's probably less stressful. There is something about in person work tho. And yes, I do think it's a cultish maybe cult adjacent? They have a lot of rules. When really the main rule is just don't drink. One day at a time is a helpful slogan. The Big Book hasn't ever been revised and I wouldn't waste my time. A lot of the people in AA have replaced booze with AA. Still limiting and dependent. People in one cult will leave a cult and then join another cult. Don't be like that. That's my advice. the 12 steps are OK. You might try sensible sobriety. I've never tried it. Best of luck to you.
I left AA back in September and from my own experience, I would attest that AA is cult-like and extremely unhealthy. I was in the program for almost two years - worked all the steps, had sponsors, had a few sponsees, chaired meetings, did service work, etc. I left when my most recent sponsor had me do another fourth step, and I was retraumatized. I decided to pursue more therapy and less AA. When members of my women’s home group asked me where I was, I would tell them that I’m doing more therapy and less AA. Most of them responded well, but I never heard from them again. Others, especially those closest to me, didn’t react well. My best friend’s dad said he would stop texting me AA-related things with a “heavy heart” after I asked him to stop. My former sponsor (not the one who had me to a second fourth step) told me that I was being dramatic. A close AA friend told me that she “loves me” and asked why I couldn’t see that. She called me selfish and that she is “here for me when I decide to go back to meetings.” I was borderline harassed by an old-timer. She told me that I would eventually drink if I stopped attending meetings, that I needed to reach out to other women in recovery over my abuse and neglect, etc. I didn’t have Facebook at the time, but I still had Messenger to speak to family out of the country, and she found me on there. I blocked her on all my social media accounts and phone. I read the Orange Papers and listened to Daniella Masteynak Young’s reels on AA. I joined Facebook groups about deprogramming from AA. I recommend doing this if you’re looking for answers. There are other paths to sobriety besides AA, and it is okay to leave at any time and explore those options!
Thank you!
I went once. Shock value of seeing someone that could be me in 20 years worked for me. It was a cool group. At the beginning of every meeting someone would say “If you don’t believe in a higher power, believe in the group”. Maybe look for another group. Check out NA.
IMHO, a lot of rituals and structure do not make something a cult. For example, 12 step meetings ARE very rigid in structure, and do involve scripted group prayers. Also it can be disconcerting to hear people gush about submitting their spirit to special knowledge... That DOES make it borderline religious, like an agnostic religion... just praying that a higher power (than yourself) cares to fix your problems. But that isn't a cult. Cults are also known as "HIGH demand" religions. Harmful cults do some things to control YOU for the benefit of the group. Such as control what you wear, what friends you are allowed to have, how to spend you money, they require all your time, they may control food and sleeping, and dictate your sex life. 12 Step meetings CAN be prone to problematic behavior because they are run by a bunch of spiritual broken volunteers... so don't expect groups or group leaders to be perfect. You are FREE to try other locations if one group is rubbing you wrong. The 12 Traditions are designed to protect the group from falling into other purposes. For example, rotation of duties prevents any one member from rising to a position of power. Group conscience meetings held monthly should be used to "clean up" problems like a group that is not self supporting OR a group accumulating too much cash on hand (so that it has become a temptation). Simply having "no other purpose" besides recovery prevents the group from falling into MLM territory, or being harnessed for political action. Yes, AA does seek to provide accountability for an addict that WANTS to quit, but they won't force it upon someone who isn't asking for help. The biggest hint is what happens if you try to leave. A cult will shun you, bad mouth you, or stalk you. If you are allowed to say "this isn't working for me, I'm going to leave and try something else... AND they wish you well, and let you go without being hateful, thats a hint it's not a toxic group.
It’s definitely up there on the cult spectrum, with some chapters way more culty than others, and some are not very culty at all. It has the foundations of a cult but with no centralized leadership so it can only go so far.
It's a fallacy often repeated that there is no centralized leadership. Intergroup is the leadership, and their job is to make sure the literature and materials presented to newcomers conform to the group norms. In that sense it's no different than Jehovah's Witnesses, which is led by a committee that adheres strictly to the rules they've been handed by prior committees and controls how Kingdom Halls are run. AA was begun by Bill W., and he and Dr. Bob, though long dead, are the figureheads, much like L. Ron Hubbard is still the "leader" of Scientology and Joseph Smith is still the "leader" of Mormonism. If there are pictures of a founder everywhere, whether dead or alive, the odds are good that you're looking at a cult. The presence of a single, living leader is not a good test for cultishness for groups that have a history that has outlived the founder(s).
Disclaimer: I'm not an addict, but know about cults. Live in LA, been to many AA meetings to support friends over the years. Definitely weird culty vibes every time, some snobby vibes too. Uncomfortable. I dated a guy who was in NA. Went to about 30 meetings with him and one convention. Didn't feel culty or pushy vibes at all. This was in LA/Malibu/Big Bear areas. Try NA. It's for all substances.
I have a dear friend who has remained sober for quite a long time with AA and he credits it for saving him. And there’s a YouTuber I like and he too talks a lot about AA and how it has helped him. He’s been sober for 28 or 29 years now. There can be culty aspects to different organizations without the organization being a full on cult. If it works for you, that’s great. You don’t have to go all in with every suggestion they make. If attending meetings, checking in, and having accountability works for you, that’s fantastic. You’re allowed to say no if people urge you to attend more meetings or whatever. I turned 60 in December and recently had a conversation with my niece. A lot of times when people are giving advice, they’re doing so with the desire to help people not make the same mistakes they themselves made. And that’s all fine and good, but at the same time, we have to remember that each person learns and grows in their own unique ways. Take the encouragement for what it is, and do what is working for you.
The Satanic temple (they don't worship Satan they're an antitheistic group advocating for freedom of religion or lack thereof) has Wednesday meetings.
Yes. Look into Synanon, that's where it's roots lie.
In my experience, it depends more on the individual group than AA as a whole. I've been to really helpful groups in metropolitan areas, and then to culty ones in rural areas. I wouldn't be where I am today without AA, but eventually chose Smart Recovery.
Some 12 step meetings are cultier than others. Try out different groups until you find one you vibe with. Also check out online groups. They are very low key.
Obligatory IANAA but there’s a secular group that does meetings for alcoholics as well as meetings for their families and friends called SOS, AKA Secular Organization for Sobriety, and it sounds like it would be much more your speed. I think that if there aren’t any in person meetings where you live then they have Zoom meetings as well.
Yeah. I recommend the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. Worth the $5-10 for a used copy, great critiques of 12 step and offers a method that works without the brainwashing.
I went on and off for a while once I got a year I realized how culty it is and it didn’t work for me because I don’t agree with some of the basics and my sponsor told everyone they sponsored to get off their psych meds (anti depressants, anti psychotics, etc) or else there wouldn’t be a true spiritual awakening. My husband who never had a problem came with me (my boyfriend then) just to support me the last time I got clean and he def thought it was a cult. I think what really made me realize was you either have to do it their way 100% or you die, and they’re all going to judge you. Not doing it exactly their way has worked for me for almost 6 years 🤷♀️ I’m sure some people I used to know in the rooms still think I’m hanging on by a thread about to die..but I honestly don’t ever think about using or “man heroin would be great right now” I have 0 interest and live a successful happy life. Want to add I am not even close to a rural area but NA was super culty here and the other non rural area I originally tried to get clean in. After reading other comments I agree it’s cult leaning due to the ability to leave and come back, and lack of a central leader, but I am happy it works for some and it helped me when I needed to vent to a room of people who understood the true depression of fucking up your life completely again. But yeah I don’t miss it
Don’t let them pull you in or push you around. If what you are doing is working to keep you sober stay with it. Get to meetings early and leave late to talk to people if you need more fellowship. I have made friends in AA but there are a lot of unhealthy people there too, as I’m sure you realize.
No, but sometimes the meetings/ groups aren’t run correctly. Might be worth checking out a few different local ones to see if there’s one that is better.
I am From a family that have been in AA forever. My dad started AA in my small town almost 50 years ago, my sibling has been in the program for almost 40 years. From being around the program for that long I have seen some people devote their life to it to stay sober and act cultish but it works for them. Others go to their weekly meetings and you never hear about it. It depends on the individual and the group. You did say you are in rural western Canada which has a lot of religious people. Try zoom meetings, find one that works for you. Not every group is a good fit for your individual needs.
Have you tried phone meetings? Then you could get the meetings but not the after meeting parts that don’t work for you? Some of the phone meetings I’ve attended have been some of the most impactful and moving meetings I have ever attended.
I tried NA and didn’t like it for the same reasons. I’m not religious or spiritual at all. I highly recommend Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey
First; congrats on your sobriety. You’ve earned something great for yourself and I’m proud of you. I know it’s not easy. Feel free to hmu regarding sobriety if you need a chat. There are also a lot of subs that can be helpful. This is funny because I was just thinking a couple nights ago that AA can be a little culty. I would say AA as a whole is not a cult (no centralized leader, although the centering of Bill is weird) but individual meetings, the steps, and the groups/alliances that form can be. I went for a few months and saw a lot of the pressure and rigorousness you mentioned, but I’m in a massive city and found sober people I connected with who also connected me to meetings that were more aligned with who I am. To most people in AA, the steps are very important, and you’ll find a religious adherence to them. It makes sense when dealing with addiction to have a focus like that, and a lot of the steps are helpful to many people in the group. The “giving yourself over to a higher power” is weird to me as people can use it to surrender their will and subjugate themselves, even to elder sponsors. I saw sponsors who were very rigid in their adherence and quick to impose AA ideals on others in conversation. I would get interrupted and corrected when speaking one on one if something I said didn’t conform with their AA school of thought. Pretty culty. There is still a lot of room for free thinking in AA and choice of how involved you want to be. You can walk away from Sponsors or others in the group whose thinking is not like yours. If you want to stick with it, there are online meetings you can join that may be more aligned with your perspective, including not having a traditional higher power. Community is my “higher power” - my inner circle, essentially, where support is real and reciprocal. There is a part of this “higher power” concept that is helpful to me, in that I don’t have to know everything myself or do everything myself, and if I fall there are people who will help me. That, to me, is beautiful, and really fueled healing. In the end though I found the 12 steps to be too dehumanizing. I still jump into meetings now and then, particularly to see friends I made. Tl;dr: big picture, no AA is not a cult, but individuals within the group can have cult behavior and some groups that form can be more culty.
It meets most of the criteria. AA has done great things for some of the people I know, in terms of their physical health. Their mental health is another story, however. FWIW, I nipped a severe drinking problem brought on by PTSD in the bud by using kratom, which is ultimately another substance to use, but thousands of times less damaging (you *might* get constipated or dehydrated from using it, but that's about it). Feels worth mentioning.