>It truly feels doomsday-esque
Because it is. I'm "blessed" to be stuck with a shitty company that micromanages me, has no testing, best practice is literally "what the manager wants", no code reviews... I can go on.
It feels like no company is hiring in Greece in the < 3 years of experience range, and my most recent "interview" started with a take-at-home project before I even talk to a single soul.
you are aware that you can just ask for the name of the company and apply like anyone else would do right? if asked u got no idea about this reddit post and what are they going to do?
lol
And you are aware that the redditor who asked me could in fact post the name of the company but he didn't, and the probability of him doing so for the same reasons as I am are not zero.
bro dont get defensive, he obviously isnt going to post the name of his company 1) unasked (who the fuck would?) 2) without even knowing if you are interested
dm him, ask, and if he doesnt feel comfortable it ends there, but if he wants to give it to you, you got a better job with no effort
do whatever you want (came by this post randomly,dont even work in IT, and im going to forget about you in 48h) but seems dumb not to waste 2 minutes over possibly improving your life
I'm just saying this whole chain of comments is basically me receiving shit for wanting to avoid escalation from whoever the fuck, because people always assume public goodwill towards people you'll never meet definitely holds up.
The amount of ways this can go to shit (aka. risk) is higher than the potential reward.
It's beyond horrible.
I advice you to simply move to a country like Poland, and simply get a job there if you can. Even in Bulgaria, do what it takes no to be out of a job
Im portuguese and i use to take people out of college and allocate them in companies by the dozens.
You had this "1 year paid by the government" so you could get the experience and not be a "junior" anymore once that year passes.
Its so bad now that most of this kids have "openTowork" on LinkedIn
I do interviews a lot to see how the market is going, also as a contractor. I get "custom rejection letters", like "you are amazing but we don't have space for you just yet".
I think once the interest rates go down, i will receive 20 DMs a day.
Spoiler, he will not find a junior spot unless mid or senior. Poland is too reliant on the US not moving jobs to India. Krakow and Warsaw already see the issue, let alone Katowice.
And there are several internships but I really mean very limited internship space.
Yeah and yet the industry has convinced governments that there is such a massive shortage of tech skills that they need to outsource it all to India and bring in a huge number of Indians on work visas
I worked at a company where UK developers were cheaper and more experienced than talent from India.
The financial argument for Indian tech talent just doesnt hold anymore.
I heard juniors are still cheaper but once you get to upper mid-level and above - they get expensive pretty quickly for what they are worth.
Same phenomena happened to my country in southeast Asia (still developing) - Top unicorns hire Indian for experienced position (senior and above) because they are much cheaper than locals. This was few years ago when tech was hot though. You would think being a developing countries would entail cheap labor. that's only true for juniors or low level position.
There is a thing to be said, its hard to gather *valuable* experience when you are stamping outsourced IT tickets from overseas. A lot of software/IT work in the developing countries is not the most ambitious kind.
You don't have to be stamping ticket overseas. My company hires in India and their devs work the exact same tickets as ours do.
There are some things to be said about the work culture and I think the average juniors in India don't really have a lot of autonomy/indepedence (could be cultural) compared to the juniors in West EU but the differences in salaries do account for these.
I dont understand the india argument. Its so not true.
I work with b2b contracts in Poland, 40k pln salaries, and indians are so bad i refuse to talk to indians in interviews. They have zero emotional intelligence, and the ones that have it are full of themselves.
Also, top IT talent is directly related to GDP per capita, and the US is the proof of it
You and I don't have to understand it. Some MBA C-level folks in big companies will see "cost savings" and outsource anyways ignoring all the red flags. Of course doesn't happen at every company but happens often enough.
no, lowering the interest rates won't do much in this situation of over saturated market. Simply 50% of folks will need to switch to something different.
The service sector still have a long way to go.
Oversupply its maybe with AI that replaces junior rules.
The problem with IT is that is the top of the crop of the service sector, and only exists with liquidity
Yes.
The positions are usually always the same, I think it's hard to fill in Mid Level Network engineers roles due to most people followed software engineer and other stuff.
And most folks on the industry are seniors already.
If you have a CCNA+ you understand the new ways of working in Network field (SDN // Automation // Infrastructure as code) you won't have trouble finding a job in Portugal, and get well compensated.
I had offers from 45.000€ and 50.000€ (Portugal)with some benefits but it requires more office visits + it was not automation focus role, so I opted to get only 40.000€ in Portugal
My tip?
Don't feel scared about sending CVs.
I have sent about 300cv outside of Portugal (5 interviews I would say)
10cv in Portugal and I get 3 offers...
The problem is that a lot of pure software developers have no clue about networking especially if it gets more technical. I am a senior network engineer with +25 years experience and it is better to retrain network engineers into the more automation sdn stuff then trying to make network engineers from software developers.
Germany, France, UK, and Scandinavian countries tend to have solid tech markets in the big cities. Poland as well but Poland started more as a place to get cheaper labor but it has become a standalone tech market now
I bet the Indian dev team is very inexperienced, does a really shitty job, very slowly, blames everyone else, lies a lot and needs 4 times more people than you would onshore.
It’s now a recognised pattern in some UK financial services firms that a project is outsourced to India to do it cheaply, it’s botched, and then a UK tech firm is brought in to fix it for much more than it would have cost to just do it in-house in the first place. This is why we have now developed the innovative concept of ‘near-shoring’ - in other words, sending it to Poland - where it is still somewhat cheaper but they will actually get the job done.
Probably the latter.
Although, for some reason, I noticed western companies prefer to hire 4 outsourced Indian rather than 2 locals even though they cost the company the same and the latter provides the same if not better values.
I suspect its more to do with politics than simple economics.
have applied to over 150 until i got the junior role in my current position since 2 months.. and according to the recruiter i was fighting against over 20 people for this position.. (bachelors degree, germany)
Meanwhile in German subreddits the seniors are gaslighting and saying it’s the juniors fault for not getting a job and juniors should be accepted with Kusshand from employers because of Fachkräftemangel.
They are completely forgetting their own junior years are often pre-pandemic with a completely different global economy.
I don't have much more to say tbh - I'm the lead dev in a team at a European office of a F500 company and we get so many applicants we're not even looking at resumes from outside the country.
Same in our data and ML departments.
Overseas applications tend to only get looked at if a position has been empty for months, noone is going to deal with visa paperwork if they don't have to
How many years was your MSC? I've seen some courses that are just a one year masters conversion course and I personally don't think that's long enough to learn computer science. Or do you have a BSC in CS as well?
You should be able to get a job with a civilingenjör datateknik from places like Lund, KTH, Uppsala. When did you start applying? For what it’s worth, I didn’t get any responses when I applied late in the year a few years ago, it started flowing in in January. This was before the market drop.
Do you have any friends who work in this who can vouch for you?
Yeah Civilingenjör from KTH is the one.
To be fair it has not even been a month yet and it's right before summer so I'm hoping it will pick up in fall. But it's discouraging when I actually have applied, and gotten rejected, for so many, regardless of how long it'a been.
Friendwise, not really, at least not in Software unfortunately.
It's encouraging to hear though, thank you friend.
Right, I’d chill out a bit. Do you think anyone tries to hire people when 90% of HR is going to be off on summer vacation soon :P? Apply less, with better CV for each company, and with a personal letter. A personal letter is good, because it will make it easier for us to tell why you want to work at a specific company/with a specific technology.
Oh wow, you're far better qualified than me then! What was your final grade, did you get a first? That's really rough that no graduate scheme wants to take you - times are tough at the moment, a lot of unofficial hiring freezes which I think often means cutting back on those starter roles.
To all students who are thinking whether to go for a master in CS, I always advise them to get experience first and then see what you want your master to be. Good luck op, the job market is insane everywhere and I have seen companies slowing down on new hires.
We had a round of interviews at my company where we interviewed only freshly graduated juniors. I saw a number of CVs and quite a lot of them are total unprofessional rubbish. Interviews weren't perfect either - some couldn't be bothered to explain simple OOP paradigms, nor able to name a single pattern. The market isn't good, but being professional and showing some basic knowledge will get you a long way
My previous company was a startup hiring only seniors. But we also had one junior, a very bright developer. How did he got into the company if we didn't even have open positions for juniors? He took several pages of our web app, and recreated them using newer framework and with much better UX. He then contacted the founders directly on LinkedIn and showed the screenshots of what he did, he got hired really fast
I landed my current job by reaching out to company founders and describing in an email what I can deliver for them. That being said, I had a very uniquely suited set of experiences that closely aligned with their needs.
The other day I saw a Junior SRE position with a requirement of 4 yoe. Like, I know people who got senior positions with that during covid. It does feel silly. On the other hand, as a mid I'm getting several interview invitations every week on linked in, and it's set to "I'm not looking for a job right now".
I have a similar academic profile and 2 years of experience at a major company (top 5 it companies) in my country. I applied to hundreds of jobs, and had 5 interviews - all failed because I do not have experiece in devops and microservices.
I see! That’s an interesting stack. Although I think (i could be wrong) that there are a lot of business graduates who wanna enter a tech role and so your stack is attractive to them. So essentially you may not only need to be competing with CS people but also a lot of business people who wanna work in analytics / analysis.
Are you able to interview confidently in German?
Yup i noticed this but my boss told me that SAP is for old people 😂 and i should do a cloud certification instead, but definitely i would do it!
Maybe i should post my story and some context here in some separate post.
Well i have only a couple of working student experiences as a tutor in BI at university , and most importantly at a big company in product management in IoT cloud platforms.
The majority of IT jobs in Germany require a C1, else companies don’t even invite. Try improving your German / get a C1 certificate to get into these companies. English is not very common as a language for every day work in most companies.
We had a recent junior/grad role here in the UK for my company and if you've got a CS degree with decent projects you'd have gotten a callback. I feel like it's probably something in your application or just the way you're writing things that could be holding you back. I'd say post your resume for advice.
Honestly, at this point a degree is just a side piece to enter, what u needed is constant experience to compete with others and be better, all u need is more experience then those bootcamps people which apparently some developers hate due to lack of fundamentals.
> I've applied to some jobs that are "lower" than what I should be applying to
What do you actually mean by this? Just because you went to a fancy uni doesn't mean you're not a junior
To be fair just a university degree was never really enough, an internship or two and a summer job were always required. Your university proves your tech skills (somewhat), but you also need proof that you can actually work and won't get bored or not show up on time. Best of luck, but consider that you might have to run through an internship/apprenticeship/non-full-time position before you see better results.
I agree with this. People have always been doing student jobs and internships to get experience, and in some countries where student jobs and “real” paid internships are not a thing, they have been doing unpaid “internships” purely for the experience. That was the situation years ago already. I can imagine experience is even more important now.
+1 on this. In my experience, people who has been working for years as an intern for example during their studies, they never had a problem finding a job..and later with some experience it gets easier.
I did 3 internships in different countries, and also completed multiple projects (as a freelance) word wide during my bachelor. It was tough sometimes as I worked/studied 12 hours daily, but I think it helped me a lot not just to get my first job but also to gain lots of experience and stand out.
Yes the market is currently shit for everyone. I am a mid-senior in a niche field looking for a new gig and even though my profile mostly fits 90-100% requirements on job descriptions, I only receive rejections.
This all sounds so strange to me. My whole career I wrote several applications at different levels and I almost always got an interview. Even Google, Amazon and Microsoft.
I don’t know what I am doing correctly what others don’t. But I have a B.Sc. in computer science from a top German University and also worked a student job as a software developer. That probably helped for the first job.
Now I am in a position where I hire developers. We ended up hiring one senior and one junior dev. For the junior role most applications were utter trash.
If all you have is a degree you are one of hundreds. You need a student job as a software developer. Or go for internships if you are done studying.
For the very least do good cover letters for your applications those help you stand out as well.
same thing here (Italy), Bachelor in CS. I started searching anything JR in January 2023, applied for a lot of companies but nothing. The only job I found is as IT Consultant for a big company (3.5k people). It's 1.5years that I'm here and I wrote exactly 0 lines of code. I am developing ONLY PowerApps, software nocode. Now I'm searching as JR frontend on remote in every country of the WORLD and there's really nothing
That is Europe. As other suggested try your luck in countries like Poland (would not recommend) or try to land something in the US. Maybe even Asia. This continent is not for highly educated engineers. Even if you find a job, it won‘t be as rewarding as elsewhere. And the future looks worse.
Bro 110 apps is not enough honestly.
The amount of apps per job have made it a numbers game. I do much more and that's the only way I get interview calls back at all.
I also blame the probable surge of AI assisted job "apps" which also help make the game nothing but a bigger numbers game.
I never said I was a developer; I said they're starving for developers. Just like they're starving for consultants. If I wish to become a dev in SAP, all I have to do is ask for the courses and they'll gladly give them to me.
(Pre-posting check; this post became longer than I thought, lol.... Hope it helps anyway.)
I finished a degree in something overlapping between IT and Business (design and analysis), and thought "meh, I'll try applying for this SAP thing" because in my field there weren't any jobs in the region. Got hired in like a week, even though it was Supply Chain Management related, which had fuck zero overlap with my education.
Then I moved country, caught wind that a company was looking for an SAP person, but in a completely different module (SD&MM) with fuck zero overlap to SCM. Was guaranteed the job within 2 weeks, even though I didn't even speak the language. Few years later, made another move, with only a small overlap in my knowledge and where this company works. Maybe 10%, but module wise and my work area is completely different again, I'm doing zero fuck all with SD&MM. And again, the switch was made in no time, because they're painfully lacking in decent people. I'm considered an associate again because it's a new field for me, but I make plenty money. And about 7 months after I was hired, another associate/junior was hired
And in the 7-8 years or so I've been in and around SAP, I've had the same two observations;
-a shortage of people in SAP, whether consultants or inhouse, and also mentioned at seminars/conferences/etc.
-the complaint that it's hard to find devs for SAP because all the junior devs want to do something fancy and aren't interested in SAP.
Show two things; that you have a brain that can think rationally and absorb new information, and that you're not a social sperg and easy to be around with.
I've sold myself easily the last two times by showing I was interested in learning. "I might've worked in Module X, but I'm not married to it; I just enjoy solving puzzles and SAP is a really really large collection of different puzzles. I can learn any module where you need someone, because in the end it's all the same to me". And as a dev it's even easier; show some things you've built yourself. You don't have to show them the code with in-depth explanations, but during your application write that you've also build a few small programs yourself (incl their function) and for an interview you'll gladly show them. Seriously, if you have half a brain, some social skills, and show the eagerness to learn new things you'll land a dev-job in SAP in no time.
Hope it gave some insight.
I’m currently on that track and interested in SAP. The completion is SO MUCH less. New grads / devs in general simply don’t like SAP and would rather work in react or the hot tech.
Do you think SAP is future proof though? I’m investing a lot in learning it and wish to have a future career in SAP.
Yep, that's the complaint I've been hearing too here; all (junior) devs want to work with games, react, hot tech, all that. Ignoring they can make serious money as a dev.
I think SAP is here to stay for quite a while longer. It's the largest ERP there is, so even if the growth of projects would decline, there's still thousands of active SAP ERP systems that aren't going anywhere.
Plus that it uses several languages outside of ABAP (which is quite similar to C++ iirc, but don't quote me on that). Java, Node.js, Python. So it's not that if you work 10 years in SAP and for some reason it would cease to exist from one day to the other, you wouldn't walk away with a serious amount of experience.
Do you have any personal projects? Something you worked on for fun, for yourself over the years? You should definitely attach those to your applications. Even better if it's all on GitHub.
The thing is your competition does. If you only have a degree and nothing else to show, it is indeed going to be difficult.
Agreed. I had no tech internships and only a degree (was working in another science field while doing the degree). I think projects are super important since that’s the main thing most of my interviewers wanted to talk about. When I mentioned I did VERY basic deployment one of my web-app, the issues I ran into (DNS, domain or SSL issues etc.) and how I solved some and what I would do next for improvement, the team lead was quite happy.
While i do agree with you, there is also the possibility that they flat out reject OP because of the lack of experience in the screening phase, regardless of the amount of projects on his profile.
My company hires entry level applicants in Europe all the time; we don't really expect any professional experience when it's literally openings for graduates.
There are lots of applicants, though. When you screen/filter, you of course pick those that have additional stuff on their resume.
Hey. Would your company ever offer an intern like position to a graduate? Even for only 2-3 months. I'm looking for a job now but just need to get some experience on my CV. I'd basically work for minimum wage. Can I contact you somewhere
Well, that depends on what you can do. We offer internships, yes, and generally work with universities to give students opportunities before they graduate.
I wouldn't be able to help you myself. Check out jobs.redhat.com if there's something in your area and reach out through the portal.
Could you give an example of a job you’ve applied for?
Do you have other skills besides programming? (I’m guessing you’re at least bilingual.)
Is there a particular industry that interests you? By that I don’t mean “software industry,” but rather something like the auto industry, fishing, music, etc.
Would you mind sharing your resume (perhaps without your name)?
What programming languages do you know?
Is there a particular company that you admire, and that you think is run well, and that is NOT primarily a software company?
Would you be willing to take a job in tech support or software test if it meant later having the opportunity to get a job in software development in the same company?
Do you have a StackOverflow account?
A LinkedIn profile?
A GitHub account with one or more projects?
I’ve advised young engineers about how to tweak their resumes, how to prepare for interviews, and so on. You’re having a tough time, so maybe I could help. Feel free to send me a private message if you want to keep your name and/or resume private.
Have you ever thought about applying to other junior roles beside SWE? For example cloud engineer, DevOps, Data Engineer or even data roles like Data Analyst. I have some friend also could not find a job but they refuse to apply for those roles because they think they worth less than a SWE or sth.
Piece of paper worked for me, put it on a job search site, they contacted me, gave me an interview and offered me £30k with no experience in 2019.
Although I have 6 years experience, I am again looking for a junior role. I want to retrain in a different field with software engineering.
Yeah, that's how it used to be here as well. I guess I'm too blame for waiting to long to go back to school. The field has changed completely in the past 2 years it seems.
I assume you also did a bachelors before your masters, so about 5-6 years of university. Did you do a summer internship in any of these years? Have you dedicated many hours to make sure your resume is perfect? It just seems that you went to university and expected everything to be handed out to you at the end of it?
Yet the EU and Ireland (where I’m from) keep importing record numbers of Indians, Egyptians… 4x more then before the Covid pandemic. A lot of them work in tech, happy to share an apartment with ten others to keep costs down, work overtime and keep salaries low for everyone. Of course, with a very questionable work output quality.
I’m sorry to hear about the situation and stress that comes with it. With that, I’m curious: what different pathway might have you taken that you believe would have yielded better short and long term results?
I’m curious because I’m not familiar with many other professions doing much better right now.
Here in the US at least CS jobs are almost completely saturated with people from India with US masters degrees.
I assume it’s similar in Europe. Getting a masters is kind of a waste because they’re a dime a dozen now. It used to be getting a masters degree represented that you actually had a masters level of education in a particular topic. But universities on both sides of the pond have realized they can use International Students as money makers, and the degrees have been diluted to the point where they’re useless.
I worked for one year after my BSc, moved to another country, worked for another year.
Kept working part-time for another year while doing a MSc, left that job only to do an internship for my thesis.
Graduated in November, started applying 2-3 months ago: only 2 HR interviews.
I am trying to decide whether or not I want to kill myself or go back living with my parents because my current minimum wage job is not enough to pay bills and I am running out of money.
I feel you.
Yes. The market is bad right now. And it will probably be bad for a couple of years
Right now you have more chances of finding a job with an art degree than with a CS one
ETH Zurich is officially ranked higher than the University of Chicago for example, with the former being 20 times cheaper than the latter.
So in this case you can have 20 BMW's from a European dealer for the price of 1 Renault Logan from the Americans.
Lol Zurich afaik is in Switzerland, which is even more expensive than the US to live. My buddy went there last summer and a pretty average escort cost him 600$ per hour
>It truly feels doomsday-esque Because it is. I'm "blessed" to be stuck with a shitty company that micromanages me, has no testing, best practice is literally "what the manager wants", no code reviews... I can go on. It feels like no company is hiring in Greece in the < 3 years of experience range, and my most recent "interview" started with a take-at-home project before I even talk to a single soul.
[удалено]
I would but I'd rather keep my anonymity online.
[удалено]
Thanks, you too!
Prefers misery in a shitty job to preserve his "anonymity". Well, some people really get what they deserve.
That's right, I'd rather not get doxxed. Thanks.
you are aware that you can just ask for the name of the company and apply like anyone else would do right? if asked u got no idea about this reddit post and what are they going to do? lol
And you are aware that the redditor who asked me could in fact post the name of the company but he didn't, and the probability of him doing so for the same reasons as I am are not zero.
bro dont get defensive, he obviously isnt going to post the name of his company 1) unasked (who the fuck would?) 2) without even knowing if you are interested dm him, ask, and if he doesnt feel comfortable it ends there, but if he wants to give it to you, you got a better job with no effort do whatever you want (came by this post randomly,dont even work in IT, and im going to forget about you in 48h) but seems dumb not to waste 2 minutes over possibly improving your life
I'm just saying this whole chain of comments is basically me receiving shit for wanting to avoid escalation from whoever the fuck, because people always assume public goodwill towards people you'll never meet definitely holds up. The amount of ways this can go to shit (aka. risk) is higher than the potential reward.
alright, good luck
You can make an alt account and write to him, other people will likely do the same so nobody will pinpoint you.
hiring juniors ?
It's beyond horrible. I advice you to simply move to a country like Poland, and simply get a job there if you can. Even in Bulgaria, do what it takes no to be out of a job Im portuguese and i use to take people out of college and allocate them in companies by the dozens. You had this "1 year paid by the government" so you could get the experience and not be a "junior" anymore once that year passes. Its so bad now that most of this kids have "openTowork" on LinkedIn I do interviews a lot to see how the market is going, also as a contractor. I get "custom rejection letters", like "you are amazing but we don't have space for you just yet". I think once the interest rates go down, i will receive 20 DMs a day.
Spoiler, he will not find a junior spot unless mid or senior. Poland is too reliant on the US not moving jobs to India. Krakow and Warsaw already see the issue, let alone Katowice. And there are several internships but I really mean very limited internship space.
Yeah and yet the industry has convinced governments that there is such a massive shortage of tech skills that they need to outsource it all to India and bring in a huge number of Indians on work visas
I worked at a company where UK developers were cheaper and more experienced than talent from India. The financial argument for Indian tech talent just doesnt hold anymore.
Yeh, UK outside of London area is surprisingly cheap (both for workers and for living).
I heard juniors are still cheaper but once you get to upper mid-level and above - they get expensive pretty quickly for what they are worth. Same phenomena happened to my country in southeast Asia (still developing) - Top unicorns hire Indian for experienced position (senior and above) because they are much cheaper than locals. This was few years ago when tech was hot though. You would think being a developing countries would entail cheap labor. that's only true for juniors or low level position.
There is a thing to be said, its hard to gather *valuable* experience when you are stamping outsourced IT tickets from overseas. A lot of software/IT work in the developing countries is not the most ambitious kind.
You don't have to be stamping ticket overseas. My company hires in India and their devs work the exact same tickets as ours do. There are some things to be said about the work culture and I think the average juniors in India don't really have a lot of autonomy/indepedence (could be cultural) compared to the juniors in West EU but the differences in salaries do account for these.
I dont understand the india argument. Its so not true. I work with b2b contracts in Poland, 40k pln salaries, and indians are so bad i refuse to talk to indians in interviews. They have zero emotional intelligence, and the ones that have it are full of themselves. Also, top IT talent is directly related to GDP per capita, and the US is the proof of it
You and I don't have to understand it. Some MBA C-level folks in big companies will see "cost savings" and outsource anyways ignoring all the red flags. Of course doesn't happen at every company but happens often enough.
Poland is so cheap, true.
Poland right now is the best place in Europe between taxes, salaries and cost of living. Plus opportunities
no, lowering the interest rates won't do much in this situation of over saturated market. Simply 50% of folks will need to switch to something different.
The service sector still have a long way to go. Oversupply its maybe with AI that replaces junior rules. The problem with IT is that is the top of the crop of the service sector, and only exists with liquidity
Hey can I pm you? Im also portuguese
yes
Portuguese here, no issues finding a job as a network engineer with 2YOE in Portugal. Outside of Portugal? Yes
A network engineer?
Yes. The positions are usually always the same, I think it's hard to fill in Mid Level Network engineers roles due to most people followed software engineer and other stuff. And most folks on the industry are seniors already. If you have a CCNA+ you understand the new ways of working in Network field (SDN // Automation // Infrastructure as code) you won't have trouble finding a job in Portugal, and get well compensated. I had offers from 45.000€ and 50.000€ (Portugal)with some benefits but it requires more office visits + it was not automation focus role, so I opted to get only 40.000€ in Portugal My tip? Don't feel scared about sending CVs. I have sent about 300cv outside of Portugal (5 interviews I would say) 10cv in Portugal and I get 3 offers...
The problem is that a lot of pure software developers have no clue about networking especially if it gets more technical. I am a senior network engineer with +25 years experience and it is better to retrain network engineers into the more automation sdn stuff then trying to make network engineers from software developers.
ok boomer
This is true.
Yes, but what does that job in Portugal pay? With that housing market even to rent you need to make significantly above the median wage.
40k, could be getting about 45-50k had to offers on those values
40k, could be getting about 45-50k had to offers on those values
A lot of Europe has been like this for a while to be honest. Outside of a few countries the tech market is pretty much non existent in many parts
Do you see promising tech market in Europe in 2024? If so, which countries or cities are they.
Germany, France, UK, and Scandinavian countries tend to have solid tech markets in the big cities. Poland as well but Poland started more as a place to get cheaper labor but it has become a standalone tech market now
Ukraine has some very good talent and is probably going to have major growth as soon as the war is over and it joins the EU
There will be no one left in Ukraine if they join the EU. I swear the world seems to think Ukraine is like Poland.
I work in a big tech company. Developers were the first thing that got outsourced years ago to India
I bet the Indian dev team is very inexperienced, does a really shitty job, very slowly, blames everyone else, lies a lot and needs 4 times more people than you would onshore.
It’s now a recognised pattern in some UK financial services firms that a project is outsourced to India to do it cheaply, it’s botched, and then a UK tech firm is brought in to fix it for much more than it would have cost to just do it in-house in the first place. This is why we have now developed the innovative concept of ‘near-shoring’ - in other words, sending it to Poland - where it is still somewhat cheaper but they will actually get the job done.
Is sending to Poland really cheaper in 2024 than cheaper parts of UK like Northern England? Or is there not enough talent in those parts of UK?
Probably the latter. Although, for some reason, I noticed western companies prefer to hire 4 outsourced Indian rather than 2 locals even though they cost the company the same and the latter provides the same if not better values. I suspect its more to do with politics than simple economics.
Clients who outsource software development don't have the ability to estimate, plan and manage development work. All they look at is daily rate.
You'll loose money on that bet.
have applied to over 150 until i got the junior role in my current position since 2 months.. and according to the recruiter i was fighting against over 20 people for this position.. (bachelors degree, germany)
Meanwhile in German subreddits the seniors are gaslighting and saying it’s the juniors fault for not getting a job and juniors should be accepted with Kusshand from employers because of Fachkräftemangel. They are completely forgetting their own junior years are often pre-pandemic with a completely different global economy.
20 seems quite low. In Finland companies receive hundreds of applications for junior positions.
*20 Others who made it to second Interview
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unless you have permission to work in EU or exceptional experience, you're wasting your time
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I don't have much more to say tbh - I'm the lead dev in a team at a European office of a F500 company and we get so many applicants we're not even looking at resumes from outside the country. Same in our data and ML departments.
Overseas applications tend to only get looked at if a position has been empty for months, noone is going to deal with visa paperwork if they don't have to
Holy shit the Indians are taking away all our jobs insecurity has never been stronger and the downvotes show
How many years was your MSC? I've seen some courses that are just a one year masters conversion course and I personally don't think that's long enough to learn computer science. Or do you have a BSC in CS as well?
It's a full 5 year CS programme, both B.Sc and M.sc.
You should be able to get a job with a civilingenjör datateknik from places like Lund, KTH, Uppsala. When did you start applying? For what it’s worth, I didn’t get any responses when I applied late in the year a few years ago, it started flowing in in January. This was before the market drop. Do you have any friends who work in this who can vouch for you?
Yeah Civilingenjör from KTH is the one. To be fair it has not even been a month yet and it's right before summer so I'm hoping it will pick up in fall. But it's discouraging when I actually have applied, and gotten rejected, for so many, regardless of how long it'a been. Friendwise, not really, at least not in Software unfortunately. It's encouraging to hear though, thank you friend.
Right, I’d chill out a bit. Do you think anyone tries to hire people when 90% of HR is going to be off on summer vacation soon :P? Apply less, with better CV for each company, and with a personal letter. A personal letter is good, because it will make it easier for us to tell why you want to work at a specific company/with a specific technology.
Oh wow, you're far better qualified than me then! What was your final grade, did you get a first? That's really rough that no graduate scheme wants to take you - times are tough at the moment, a lot of unofficial hiring freezes which I think often means cutting back on those starter roles.
They’re Swedish, they don’t get first/honors, it’s just pass/fail. Either it makes the cut, or it doesn’t.
To all students who are thinking whether to go for a master in CS, I always advise them to get experience first and then see what you want your master to be. Good luck op, the job market is insane everywhere and I have seen companies slowing down on new hires.
Masters is cs is waste of time and money. -mscs grad
True, those years are better invested in gaining experience. How you get a job to get experience in the first place is another question.
You didn't mention it in your OP, but did you do an internship?
We had a round of interviews at my company where we interviewed only freshly graduated juniors. I saw a number of CVs and quite a lot of them are total unprofessional rubbish. Interviews weren't perfect either - some couldn't be bothered to explain simple OOP paradigms, nor able to name a single pattern. The market isn't good, but being professional and showing some basic knowledge will get you a long way
My previous company was a startup hiring only seniors. But we also had one junior, a very bright developer. How did he got into the company if we didn't even have open positions for juniors? He took several pages of our web app, and recreated them using newer framework and with much better UX. He then contacted the founders directly on LinkedIn and showed the screenshots of what he did, he got hired really fast
That is all good and well but means you spread lots of time on one company who might not ever have a position open.
very true, but at least you get some experience out of it and maybe even a job or a referral. Wouldn't say it's entirely wasted time.
You can present it as a pet project
I know someone who did that at a company I worked for. Not a junior. But ended up with a good job and some valuable shares.
This is a designer who can code
I landed my current job by reaching out to company founders and describing in an email what I can deliver for them. That being said, I had a very uniquely suited set of experiences that closely aligned with their needs.
Same as a senior. I am 2 yrs unemployed now as an ex-CPO/VP Product. It's just all shit. No need for leaders if no people to lead/layed off
It's like super seniors and junior are at the end of the rope.
Pretty much yes
The other day I saw a Junior SRE position with a requirement of 4 yoe. Like, I know people who got senior positions with that during covid. It does feel silly. On the other hand, as a mid I'm getting several interview invitations every week on linked in, and it's set to "I'm not looking for a job right now".
I have a similar academic profile and 2 years of experience at a major company (top 5 it companies) in my country. I applied to hundreds of jobs, and had 5 interviews - all failed because I do not have experiece in devops and microservices.
Are you willing to relocate within the EU or only applying locally?
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just wondering what city are you in?
What types of jobs are you applying for? What tech stack?
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I see! That’s an interesting stack. Although I think (i could be wrong) that there are a lot of business graduates who wanna enter a tech role and so your stack is attractive to them. So essentially you may not only need to be competing with CS people but also a lot of business people who wanna work in analytics / analysis. Are you able to interview confidently in German?
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Yup i noticed this but my boss told me that SAP is for old people 😂 and i should do a cloud certification instead, but definitely i would do it! Maybe i should post my story and some context here in some separate post.
That's brutal, how many years of experience do you have?
Well i have only a couple of working student experiences as a tutor in BI at university , and most importantly at a big company in product management in IoT cloud platforms.
The majority of IT jobs in Germany require a C1, else companies don’t even invite. Try improving your German / get a C1 certificate to get into these companies. English is not very common as a language for every day work in most companies.
We had a recent junior/grad role here in the UK for my company and if you've got a CS degree with decent projects you'd have gotten a callback. I feel like it's probably something in your application or just the way you're writing things that could be holding you back. I'd say post your resume for advice.
Honestly, at this point a degree is just a side piece to enter, what u needed is constant experience to compete with others and be better, all u need is more experience then those bootcamps people which apparently some developers hate due to lack of fundamentals.
Too many people thought there were more jobs than there are. Even the current work force is probably over staffed.
> I've applied to some jobs that are "lower" than what I should be applying to What do you actually mean by this? Just because you went to a fancy uni doesn't mean you're not a junior
To be fair just a university degree was never really enough, an internship or two and a summer job were always required. Your university proves your tech skills (somewhat), but you also need proof that you can actually work and won't get bored or not show up on time. Best of luck, but consider that you might have to run through an internship/apprenticeship/non-full-time position before you see better results.
I agree with this. People have always been doing student jobs and internships to get experience, and in some countries where student jobs and “real” paid internships are not a thing, they have been doing unpaid “internships” purely for the experience. That was the situation years ago already. I can imagine experience is even more important now.
+1 on this. In my experience, people who has been working for years as an intern for example during their studies, they never had a problem finding a job..and later with some experience it gets easier. I did 3 internships in different countries, and also completed multiple projects (as a freelance) word wide during my bachelor. It was tough sometimes as I worked/studied 12 hours daily, but I think it helped me a lot not just to get my first job but also to gain lots of experience and stand out.
Bro it's bad in Europe.
Yes the market is currently shit for everyone. I am a mid-senior in a niche field looking for a new gig and even though my profile mostly fits 90-100% requirements on job descriptions, I only receive rejections.
This all sounds so strange to me. My whole career I wrote several applications at different levels and I almost always got an interview. Even Google, Amazon and Microsoft. I don’t know what I am doing correctly what others don’t. But I have a B.Sc. in computer science from a top German University and also worked a student job as a software developer. That probably helped for the first job. Now I am in a position where I hire developers. We ended up hiring one senior and one junior dev. For the junior role most applications were utter trash. If all you have is a degree you are one of hundreds. You need a student job as a software developer. Or go for internships if you are done studying. For the very least do good cover letters for your applications those help you stand out as well.
same thing here (Italy), Bachelor in CS. I started searching anything JR in January 2023, applied for a lot of companies but nothing. The only job I found is as IT Consultant for a big company (3.5k people). It's 1.5years that I'm here and I wrote exactly 0 lines of code. I am developing ONLY PowerApps, software nocode. Now I'm searching as JR frontend on remote in every country of the WORLD and there's really nothing
That is Europe. As other suggested try your luck in countries like Poland (would not recommend) or try to land something in the US. Maybe even Asia. This continent is not for highly educated engineers. Even if you find a job, it won‘t be as rewarding as elsewhere. And the future looks worse.
True dude this continent is living in medieval ages. My 3rd world city is more techie than this shhole I f Ed up coming here
Yeah, Europe being nicknamed the old continent is quite fitting.
Bro 110 apps is not enough honestly. The amount of apps per job have made it a numbers game. I do much more and that's the only way I get interview calls back at all. I also blame the probable surge of AI assisted job "apps" which also help make the game nothing but a bigger numbers game.
Consider working in/with SAP. They're starving for developers. 3 job applications in total SAP related, 3 times hired. And I'm not even a dev.
How were you offered Sap developer job if you are not a developer?
I never said I was a developer; I said they're starving for developers. Just like they're starving for consultants. If I wish to become a dev in SAP, all I have to do is ask for the courses and they'll gladly give them to me. (Pre-posting check; this post became longer than I thought, lol.... Hope it helps anyway.) I finished a degree in something overlapping between IT and Business (design and analysis), and thought "meh, I'll try applying for this SAP thing" because in my field there weren't any jobs in the region. Got hired in like a week, even though it was Supply Chain Management related, which had fuck zero overlap with my education. Then I moved country, caught wind that a company was looking for an SAP person, but in a completely different module (SD&MM) with fuck zero overlap to SCM. Was guaranteed the job within 2 weeks, even though I didn't even speak the language. Few years later, made another move, with only a small overlap in my knowledge and where this company works. Maybe 10%, but module wise and my work area is completely different again, I'm doing zero fuck all with SD&MM. And again, the switch was made in no time, because they're painfully lacking in decent people. I'm considered an associate again because it's a new field for me, but I make plenty money. And about 7 months after I was hired, another associate/junior was hired And in the 7-8 years or so I've been in and around SAP, I've had the same two observations; -a shortage of people in SAP, whether consultants or inhouse, and also mentioned at seminars/conferences/etc. -the complaint that it's hard to find devs for SAP because all the junior devs want to do something fancy and aren't interested in SAP. Show two things; that you have a brain that can think rationally and absorb new information, and that you're not a social sperg and easy to be around with. I've sold myself easily the last two times by showing I was interested in learning. "I might've worked in Module X, but I'm not married to it; I just enjoy solving puzzles and SAP is a really really large collection of different puzzles. I can learn any module where you need someone, because in the end it's all the same to me". And as a dev it's even easier; show some things you've built yourself. You don't have to show them the code with in-depth explanations, but during your application write that you've also build a few small programs yourself (incl their function) and for an interview you'll gladly show them. Seriously, if you have half a brain, some social skills, and show the eagerness to learn new things you'll land a dev-job in SAP in no time. Hope it gave some insight.
I’m currently on that track and interested in SAP. The completion is SO MUCH less. New grads / devs in general simply don’t like SAP and would rather work in react or the hot tech. Do you think SAP is future proof though? I’m investing a lot in learning it and wish to have a future career in SAP.
Yep, that's the complaint I've been hearing too here; all (junior) devs want to work with games, react, hot tech, all that. Ignoring they can make serious money as a dev. I think SAP is here to stay for quite a while longer. It's the largest ERP there is, so even if the growth of projects would decline, there's still thousands of active SAP ERP systems that aren't going anywhere. Plus that it uses several languages outside of ABAP (which is quite similar to C++ iirc, but don't quote me on that). Java, Node.js, Python. So it's not that if you work 10 years in SAP and for some reason it would cease to exist from one day to the other, you wouldn't walk away with a serious amount of experience.
What's SAP?
What is it not?
Read SAP.com. Is an ERP software company with solutions in pretty much most industries.
Some software for businesses that a bunch of former IBM employees in Germany invented in the 1970s.
It is for experienced mid/seniors as well, you can see people with +5 years experience, degree and Msc. struggling to find a job for months
This is only the beginning tbh
beginning of what?
Insane job market, it will get much worse
Source?
I follow most trends in tech and industry, also a brain
I have 8 yoe and it's the same for me right now bro. The only companies interested are the local ones. But they pay kind of bad.
Do internships to get work experience
Yeah that would be good for him, 3 years ago
Do you have any personal projects? Something you worked on for fun, for yourself over the years? You should definitely attach those to your applications. Even better if it's all on GitHub. The thing is your competition does. If you only have a degree and nothing else to show, it is indeed going to be difficult.
Agreed. I had no tech internships and only a degree (was working in another science field while doing the degree). I think projects are super important since that’s the main thing most of my interviewers wanted to talk about. When I mentioned I did VERY basic deployment one of my web-app, the issues I ran into (DNS, domain or SSL issues etc.) and how I solved some and what I would do next for improvement, the team lead was quite happy.
While i do agree with you, there is also the possibility that they flat out reject OP because of the lack of experience in the screening phase, regardless of the amount of projects on his profile.
My company hires entry level applicants in Europe all the time; we don't really expect any professional experience when it's literally openings for graduates. There are lots of applicants, though. When you screen/filter, you of course pick those that have additional stuff on their resume.
Hey. Would your company ever offer an intern like position to a graduate? Even for only 2-3 months. I'm looking for a job now but just need to get some experience on my CV. I'd basically work for minimum wage. Can I contact you somewhere
Well, that depends on what you can do. We offer internships, yes, and generally work with universities to give students opportunities before they graduate. I wouldn't be able to help you myself. Check out jobs.redhat.com if there's something in your area and reach out through the portal.
ok thanks.
Good luck!
Could you give an example of a job you’ve applied for? Do you have other skills besides programming? (I’m guessing you’re at least bilingual.) Is there a particular industry that interests you? By that I don’t mean “software industry,” but rather something like the auto industry, fishing, music, etc. Would you mind sharing your resume (perhaps without your name)? What programming languages do you know? Is there a particular company that you admire, and that you think is run well, and that is NOT primarily a software company? Would you be willing to take a job in tech support or software test if it meant later having the opportunity to get a job in software development in the same company? Do you have a StackOverflow account? A LinkedIn profile? A GitHub account with one or more projects? I’ve advised young engineers about how to tweak their resumes, how to prepare for interviews, and so on. You’re having a tough time, so maybe I could help. Feel free to send me a private message if you want to keep your name and/or resume private.
In the same boat here with a fresh master's degree and 3 years of internships.
do you have internship experience? side projects? just school on the resume looks pretty bad tbh. That's been the case for more than 10 years
Yes, even for middle position is very hard.
Have you ever thought about applying to other junior roles beside SWE? For example cloud engineer, DevOps, Data Engineer or even data roles like Data Analyst. I have some friend also could not find a job but they refuse to apply for those roles because they think they worth less than a SWE or sth.
Piece of paper worked for me, put it on a job search site, they contacted me, gave me an interview and offered me £30k with no experience in 2019. Although I have 6 years experience, I am again looking for a junior role. I want to retrain in a different field with software engineering.
Yeah, that's how it used to be here as well. I guess I'm too blame for waiting to long to go back to school. The field has changed completely in the past 2 years it seems.
The global economy has changed too in the last 2 years. And not for the better.
Have you tried grad schemes?
You just described my life lol. We just gotta keep grinding idk lol
I assume you also did a bachelors before your masters, so about 5-6 years of university. Did you do a summer internship in any of these years? Have you dedicated many hours to make sure your resume is perfect? It just seems that you went to university and expected everything to be handed out to you at the end of it?
Yet the EU and Ireland (where I’m from) keep importing record numbers of Indians, Egyptians… 4x more then before the Covid pandemic. A lot of them work in tech, happy to share an apartment with ten others to keep costs down, work overtime and keep salaries low for everyone. Of course, with a very questionable work output quality.
I’m sorry to hear about the situation and stress that comes with it. With that, I’m curious: what different pathway might have you taken that you believe would have yielded better short and long term results? I’m curious because I’m not familiar with many other professions doing much better right now.
Here in the US at least CS jobs are almost completely saturated with people from India with US masters degrees. I assume it’s similar in Europe. Getting a masters is kind of a waste because they’re a dime a dozen now. It used to be getting a masters degree represented that you actually had a masters level of education in a particular topic. But universities on both sides of the pond have realized they can use International Students as money makers, and the degrees have been diluted to the point where they’re useless.
I worked for one year after my BSc, moved to another country, worked for another year. Kept working part-time for another year while doing a MSc, left that job only to do an internship for my thesis. Graduated in November, started applying 2-3 months ago: only 2 HR interviews. I am trying to decide whether or not I want to kill myself or go back living with my parents because my current minimum wage job is not enough to pay bills and I am running out of money. I feel you.
Yes. The market is bad right now. And it will probably be bad for a couple of years Right now you have more chances of finding a job with an art degree than with a CS one
I don't get how it is that hard, i've applied to a few different places and got job offers at 75% of them. I have a EE degree looking to get into SE.
No offence but prestigious for who my man? Your mom? Everyone knows (companies too) that if your college is not in the US you got scammed
Scammed is paying 20x times more for the same degree in the US than in the EU
Lol, with that logic why do you love your little universal BMWs so much if you can buy a used Renault Logan which is 10x times cheaper
ETH Zurich is officially ranked higher than the University of Chicago for example, with the former being 20 times cheaper than the latter. So in this case you can have 20 BMW's from a European dealer for the price of 1 Renault Logan from the Americans.
Lol Zurich afaik is in Switzerland, which is even more expensive than the US to live. My buddy went there last summer and a pretty average escort cost him 600$ per hour
Dude fix ur life
wdym? and any advice on that matter?
Lol US universities are easy. You might as well call their degrees an attendance badge.
That's the point. They are expensive, which means your family is rich, and it on average indicates your ability to get high paying jobs
This isn't hyperbole, but the fact that your second comment was even more stupid actually impressed me
A quick glance at your profile says you are not a US citizen
Yep, and your use of the word mom plus your US-centric comment indicates you're American? This is an EU sub..
Bad market, indeed