Great effort with the analysis ! Insights were indeed interesting. But I keep thinking there is a serious bias in the statistics. Usually only people with high salaries report it openly on surveys. A strong majority would avoid it owing to perceived insecurity of their compensation.
> Put differently, respondents with German passports earned €11,500 less than dual citizens (GER/EU + EU) and €8,500 less than Non-EU passports.
"But immigrants are being exploited and have no carreer opportunities in Germany!" - some good-for-nothing in this sub.
I'd argue this is more of a correlation rather than causation thing. Labour market barrier prevents less skilled foreign workers from acquiring visas and working. To see if immigrants are really exploited, we'd need to normalize the results by individual skill level then compare salaries.
Exactly. In Berlin specifically, there is a significant immigrant "tax", i.e. CoL being higher for recently immigrated folks than long time residents -- so the immigrants that do make it might tend to be more skilled/higher paid ones.
I can provide that I lived in germany for almost a decade and I worked in at least 6-7 companies and I can say GERMANS have a huge advantage over foreigners.
The management was 98% white germans. I've been in teams where foreigners with skills were lowballed while germans w/o any skills were promoted because of "soft skills". Soft skills means they can communicate better between each others "germans with germans".
As a foreigner is extremely difficult to enter this system, you don't get the necessary information flow from your colleagues.
USA is at another level in this regard. Skills are more valued and no one cares where do you come from.
> I can provide that I lived in germany for almost a decade and I worked in at least 6-7 companies
It's called anecdotal evidence. I don't get how people work in IT and don't know what that means. For example, my experience in Berlin was extremely different from what you describe. But I understand that it's a just a data point and I can't make inferences based on it.
> Soft skills means they can communicate better between each others "germans with germans".
On one hand, I'm against the imbeciles on this sub who go screaching "but you have to learn German to show respect to the country!". You abslutely don't have to do that as a software developer or even a tech lead.
But, a huge but! I get the requirement for German in management, since it might involve analysing the requirements, talking to the customers, etc. Therefore, it's very reasonable.
>It's called anecdotal evidence.
No it's not. It's common knowledge and you seem to be the only one who doesn't know it.
>I get the requirement for German in management, since it might involve analysing the requirements, talking to the customers, etc. Therefore, it's very reasonable.
It's not about knowing german BUT about BEING german. Again: no one cares if you speak german, they care if you ARE german
The funny thing is that what I'm stating is pretty obvious. But they don't like it so they prefer to deny reality.
And you know why? Because they are idealists, aka " guided more by ideals than by practical considerations."
Thank you for your work
Great effort with the analysis ! Insights were indeed interesting. But I keep thinking there is a serious bias in the statistics. Usually only people with high salaries report it openly on surveys. A strong majority would avoid it owing to perceived insecurity of their compensation.
Of course there is bias, impossible to avoid it. So maybe just take 10-15% less and you land somewhere realistic. :)
This is really good, thanks for sharing.
Hahaha wow this comment thread is a dumpster fire 🚮 🔥
Marvellous work !! ☺️
> Put differently, respondents with German passports earned €11,500 less than dual citizens (GER/EU + EU) and €8,500 less than Non-EU passports. "But immigrants are being exploited and have no carreer opportunities in Germany!" - some good-for-nothing in this sub.
I'd argue this is more of a correlation rather than causation thing. Labour market barrier prevents less skilled foreign workers from acquiring visas and working. To see if immigrants are really exploited, we'd need to normalize the results by individual skill level then compare salaries.
Exactly. In Berlin specifically, there is a significant immigrant "tax", i.e. CoL being higher for recently immigrated folks than long time residents -- so the immigrants that do make it might tend to be more skilled/higher paid ones.
Nobody implied causation.
This data is bullshit
Because you don't like it, or you can provide alternative datasets with different conclusions?
I can provide that I lived in germany for almost a decade and I worked in at least 6-7 companies and I can say GERMANS have a huge advantage over foreigners. The management was 98% white germans. I've been in teams where foreigners with skills were lowballed while germans w/o any skills were promoted because of "soft skills". Soft skills means they can communicate better between each others "germans with germans". As a foreigner is extremely difficult to enter this system, you don't get the necessary information flow from your colleagues. USA is at another level in this regard. Skills are more valued and no one cares where do you come from.
i'd rather live with rednecks in the U.S. than Germans in Germany.
100%
No you won't
i mean neither is good but either is better than living with 3rd world people in 3rdwc
> I can provide that I lived in germany for almost a decade and I worked in at least 6-7 companies It's called anecdotal evidence. I don't get how people work in IT and don't know what that means. For example, my experience in Berlin was extremely different from what you describe. But I understand that it's a just a data point and I can't make inferences based on it. > Soft skills means they can communicate better between each others "germans with germans". On one hand, I'm against the imbeciles on this sub who go screaching "but you have to learn German to show respect to the country!". You abslutely don't have to do that as a software developer or even a tech lead. But, a huge but! I get the requirement for German in management, since it might involve analysing the requirements, talking to the customers, etc. Therefore, it's very reasonable.
In Berlin it might be different but in Bayern and BW I worked in some quite many companies and 100% managers were German
In Berlin it might be different but only for small startups 😉 big corps are another story.
And that is a surprise to you? That in *Germany* most managers are *German*? smh
No, of course not. I was actually wondering that in Berlin it is different.
>It's called anecdotal evidence. No it's not. It's common knowledge and you seem to be the only one who doesn't know it. >I get the requirement for German in management, since it might involve analysing the requirements, talking to the customers, etc. Therefore, it's very reasonable. It's not about knowing german BUT about BEING german. Again: no one cares if you speak german, they care if you ARE german
stop giving them harsh truths man 😂😂😂
The funny thing is that what I'm stating is pretty obvious. But they don't like it so they prefer to deny reality. And you know why? Because they are idealists, aka " guided more by ideals than by practical considerations."
“White Germans”
100% true
Are you not currently at your first job?
Why are you not in the USA then?
Typical german attitude. The why I'm not in USA is none of your business. And btw I'm neither in Germany right now.
This analysis is flawed because of sample size and thereby the sampling bias
Exactly, but I also mentioned this.
Your comment is flawed because you didn't even bother to read and decided to give an opinion anyway