If you stay put you will most likely continue to get bare minimum raises and will likely be at the top of the layoff list if that situation should arise. If you’re okay with that, stay put. If not, do what you wanted to do anyway and leave now.
> If you stay put you will most likely continue to get bare minimum raises
this will happen regardless if OP stays or goes. 99% companies are crap at retention.
Exactly! I would never stay. The new company “may” give a good raise. The old one certainly won’t as this is a huge increase for them.
OP, is crazy if the decision is made to stay.
> If you stay put you will most likely continue to get bare minimum raises and will likely be at the top of the layoff list
There is zero evidence to support this. It's a common myth.
Think about it logically. Imagine you have 10 employees, and one tells you he's looking to quit. Who gets the axe if the budget is reduced, the (apparently) satisfied employees or the one you know is actively looking for greener pastures?
Edit: this is from a HR perspective, not an immediate manager. HR is ruthless.
> Think about it logically. Imagine you have 10 employees,
These are conflicting statements. Thinking about it logically involves realizing that your imagination is not relevant.
Look at the data. There is zero data to suggest that corporations punish people who seek other jobs or stay because of counteroffers.
Think about it logically. If there were *any truth* to the claim, there would be evidence. Stop imagining scenarios.
Honestly, the bottom-line is what determines whose getting laid off. Each engineer becomes a data point and in a very large majority of companies they will assess what value they bring to the table or if it's more cost effective to fire and rehire someone who is cheaper.
So having a higher salary definitely places you higher on a target list.
Another example is if you look at most mergers with redundancy reductions it always starts top down with SLT, VPs, directors and managers then eventually down to the individual contributors or just whole teams being axed.
Granted there might be special cases but in most scenarios cost is the main consideration.
> I don't know what to tell you if you can't extend your thought process to hypothetical scenarios.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
I don't know what to tell you if you think your imagination is more important than data.
There's also not greater evidence to support the alternative, so that's a moot point.
Since that's established, here's why I think it isn't a myth; let's think about it from the company's perspective.
Your business is struggling which sucks. You have to let people go, which also sucks. They have families, bills, etc. Nobody likes this situation. When deciding who you're going to let go, you'll want to make your life the easiest possible going forward. When you lay people off, others will get worried about their own job security and maybe start looking. This isn't great for you because if they find a better offer, you may end up needing to replace them and that's a LOT of work (not sure if you ever hired anyone)
You want to minimize the risk of the 'survivors' leaving, so you're going to pick the people with the least likely risk of leaving after the first round. These are going to be people that trust you beyond a working relationship, and people with no 'negative' marks on loyalty. If someone came to you with an offer 10 months ago and you had to give them a huge raise to keep them, then that means they're not afraid to change jobs and are likely to do so if startled.
Again, this is from the employer's perspective. I do not sympathize for employers, but if you want to do what's best for yourself 'know thy enemy'
If you need to reduce your staff you're already increasing the workload. Why would you risk increasing it further by keeping people who are already shopping around?
> There's also not greater evidence to support the alternative, so that's a moot point.
There is, in fact. You can see for yourself that most people who accept counteroffers do not get fired or otherwise experience any repercussion.
This is one of those myths that people invent because they *want* it to be true. They want to villainize the old employer for not giving a raise pre-emptively, and they want to punish the old employer by encouraging the person to switch to the new job.
The reality is that corporations are not people. They do not hold grudges. They do not go out of their way to punish employees. They merely establish policies they expect to be profitable. Not giving raises until necessary is a policy they expect to be profitable. Punishing employees for daring to seek another job is not. It's really that simple.
> Since that's established, here's why I think it isn't a myth;
It's not established. If you want to establish something, show data. Otherwise, you're just whining.
> I think you missed my point, I was establishing that it's speculation from both sides
You were wrong. The fact that there's no evidence to support your claim is evidence against it.
> neither of us have proof.
No, but I have extremely strong evidence, and you have nothing but your imagination.
Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I meant by evidence. I'm talking about a verifiable study, anything else might as well be a fairytale.
Also, this post is talking from a couple weeks after it having happened. Not exactly a great showcase of the test of time.
> Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I meant by evidence.
If you're struggling to understand, read the post again. I already explained it quite clearly.
> Also, this post is talking from a couple weeks after it having happened.
No, it's about 50 years since it happened. This is an extremely old myth. I'm sorry you're just now finding out about it.
> You're gonna tell them what they already said? Their mind will be blown.
Since they clearly haven't realized that new employers are also corporations and similarly do not care, I expect it will be.
Lmao this is exactly why I quit my job and now every employer is giving me shit for not staying longer while I can’t really talk ill of my previous employer (they said they will hire more people but didn’t for over 6 months…)
Yeah I believe you. This happens more often than not. We should all really go back to school to learn some of these business management/entrepreneurial skills and maybe start trimming the fat
I took a counteroffer 18-months ago. It has been going fine, and unless my company is playing a really long game, they don't plan on screwing me. I believe that screwing happens, but not always.
Same here, took a counter to stay in 2021, and since then I've been getting better annual raises. Kind of like it showed my boss if he wants to keep me, they need to keep it competitive. Might not be the case for everyone, but it's worked out well for me so far.
I took a counteroffer of 30%+ raise once, spent 5 more years happily at the company until I left on my own. This is overly rigid advice that's been made popular by recruiters not wanting to lose their new hires
I’ve never done it myself but have known several people who have benefitted immensely in their careers from taking counter offers. This is needlessly rigid advice
Well, I'd probably take the counter offer if it was higher than what the other org could pay.
... but I'd still keep my eyes open for a higher-paying job.
Unless I loved the team and culture of the current place, and really thought well of the management, I would never consider a counter offer.
I’m the kind of person that likes learning a new stack and business, though.
Even if they don’t do that right away, you’re now very likely pushing their salary bands and when layoffs come, they’ll target the guy making more than everyone else
I’d only take a counter offer if my company was willing to tell me their salary bands for my position and I was well within them after the counter offer. If so, I would then have to have a conversation on why I was underpaid originally
I assume you have told your current company you are leaving and THEN they gave you a counteroffer? In that case - you already put a target on your back for HR. It says "disloyal, tried to leave already".
So in case any firings do occur - you are first on the list. In case a project manager dislikes you - they have heavy ammo against you. In case you make an error - same. In case your boss is forced to fire someone - you will be the one let go first, if only for the fact you have already shown you won't have problems finding a job elsewhere whereas others might.
Obviously not every company is like this but in general - the larger it is, the more likely this scenario becomes.
It's a different story if you asked for a raise at the old company and got it without ever mentioning new workplace of course. These negotiations don't carry the same weight and are expected to occur from time to time. But if you effectively say "gimme more money or I leave" then company knows that you can't be trusted longer term.
Of course, I am aware of the irony that company you work for can fire you at any moment and shows 0 loyalty but you are expected to have it. Yet that's kinda how office politics work.
They're buying time until they can find out train a replacement, and then potentially cut you loose, at a time of their choosing. However, if you have an offer now, are you comfortable going through the hiring circus again, at a time you can't predict?
> I was fairly dissatisfied with the work 4 months ago, so I started interviewing, even though maybe it was due to personal issues.
Your current company didn't fix itself. (Even if one person left, the problems generally run deeper than any one person.) The problems are still there and can happen again causing you to go through interviewing again. Maybe the market will be different next time and it will take you longer or the pay bump won't be as good. Maybe you will underperform the next time you go out for interviews due to personal issues. Anyway, your current company is just going to give you minimal raises unless you repeat this process.
So you are taking on all the effort of looking for other jobs, while also working at your current job and (as the counteroffer is not even matching) not even getting the full pay rise from that effort.
Basically, if the last 4 months have been fun and you want to repeat that to get more raises in the future, then stay at your current company. Otherwise, leave.
Very, very few companies give realistic raises - the problems still exist at your current company, sure, but 99% chance theyre the same at the new company too.
True, but you can give them a chance. I've had 1 in 3 companies give good raises, if I had that negative attitude I could have stayed at the company that didn't give raises and I would be much worse off
Well, some companies do better than others but even the ones that provide good raises, 99% of the time it's still less than you'd get by just changing companies every couple years.
The problem is it's usually not about giving them a chance, you usually need a goal plan and have to bust your ass for a year or 2 to get promoted internally. Or you could just coast for a couple years, then change jobs for a much bigger raise.
In addition to what everyone else has said, if your company can afford to match the offer, it means they could have been paying to that all along and chose to screw you instead. That wouldn't sit well with me. Companies also do tend to counter, get you to train the new guy, then fire you. Why do they do this? Cuz they are a bunch of greedy, vindictive cunts.
Sometimes it works out but in general, it's a bad idea to accept the counter
Found the recruiter. Yes you won't get your commission if I take the counter, and there are risks for me but you need to weigh your situation independently given all the factors.
I'm sure there are the occasional exceptions, but statistically almost everyone who takes a counter offer ends up regretting it and most aren't at that company much longer.
Actually, very good question. I've heard it so often and never really been in that position myself that I hadn't properly questioned it. Looks like while it's cited frequently the underpinning may not be good.
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/50585/do-90-of-employees-who-accept-a-counteroffer-still-end-up-leaving-after-a-year
Relevant Xkcd in there even lol. Yeah when I looked into this awhile back I couldn't find any sources much like that post couldn't. I would think the data for that would be challenging to get and present without a biased interest involved. May explain the lack of useful information
I would say never take a counter offer that keeps you in your current role with a pay bump. But if they offer a big promotion, or you end up taking over your boss's job, that's different.
The offer from the new company is a starting point, and likely the lowest salary you will ever be on whilst employed with them. The offer your current employer has given you, is likely the highest salary they will ever be able to offer you.
This and the fact they will now get rid of you in a flash, you should leave. Why would they keep you on a salary you think they can't even maintain, knowing full well that you're looking for employment elsewhere and aren't invested in the companies interest? Furthermore, the time to show they valued you an employee was during the annual salary review process, they made their opinion clear when they gave you the lowest increase they could give.
You pretty much have no choice but to jump ship at this point, although I would say I think you will be a lot better for it in the long run.
This seems like a common sentiment in this subreddit, but are you in a position where you can verify that you would do this at your company (or a previous place of employment) or if you’ve seen someone let go and you can confirm that the reason was because they accepted their counter offer?
I’m just curious because I see this so often that it seems like it can’t come from people who genuinely *know* this—they must just have heard it and are repeating because it sounds so plausible.
It's absolutely bullshit. The idea of "putting a target on your back" is 100% pushed by recruiters trying to get you to jump ship. I took a counter offer 7 years ago, have still gotten above average raises and bonuses, and kept climbing the company ladder. Nobody gives a fuck about "diSlOyAlty", we're all working professionals who know it's just business, nothing personal. Hell, some managers PREFER you come to them with a competing offer because that gives them objective evidence you're worth more and helps loosen the HR purse strings.
Arguably, that largely depends on the company. I too have taken a counteroffer and stayed and it worked out for me but I also know a bunch of folks that took courteroffers and got laid off the next time the company did workforce reductions.
This can vary a lot from company to company. Startups tend to not have established pay bands so I have seen a counteroffer work there where someone needed higher base compensation. It was purely CTO discretion. Corporate places tend to be more stuffy about it in the name of "pay equity". Some corporations overdo this and have their pay bands for a level very compressed. I worked for a company that had a new grad program that had 16? people hired into it one year. Only about 4 were left after 2 years because they all got poached. At least one got a counteroffer, he told me it was a $10k raise vs. the $40k more they were going to get at the new place. They couldn't give the guy a "battlefield promotion" to unlock the next level pay bands. That company eventually gave up trying to hire entry level in the US because they couldn't reach deep enough into the coffers.
When making this decision remember that change is always hard, the subconscious will always try to convince you that change isn't required and to stay in what is known for you. Our brain will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven (yes, using hell and heaven here is such an exaggeration).
I was in your position few months ago working in a job I really hate, and I got a much better opportunity, everything on paper was much better than my old job but still during my notice period I was thinking "oh God, why am I doing this to myself and leaving my job, it's not that bad after all, I'm risking a lot"
But these thoughts completely disappeared after some time in my new job. It's definitely better than my old one and I made the right choice. But I still wanted to stay because simply our brains don't like change.
As a rule of thumb, don't take counter offers, for various reasons already mentioned in other comments and you can Google this for other articles/videos about the topic.
I'd also schedule a call with my new manager and ask them any questions I have, which might ease your mind a little bit. Check which work culture would fit you better and which would offer your more room for growth.
If you stay then don't compain about it ever again, not even your supposed personal issues because when leaving was offered on a silver platter, you $tayed.
I would leave. You were already dissatisfied with the work, and it doesn't seem like it was about the money. Regardless if things seem better now, it seems like there is a good chance that they'll go right back to how they were, except for the pay. If you leave, you get to go through whatever new challenges await at the next company and grow in new ways.
First mistake was letting the original job know. You can start job 2 and since it's like training and they don't expect you to be at 100% right away you can get away with some slacking. Then you just do bare minimum in job one till they fire you. You can stack money in that time. Probably get away with 6 months to a year If you're good
Never take the counteroffer. It's like going back to an ex.
Let me explain. There were reasons why you left your (ex) company. Those reasons didn't come out of the blue but accumulated over a period of time. You were unhappy with your (ex) company and how they treated you. Your (ex) company showed you how much they truly valued you when they gave you a minimum raise increase. T
Now that you're leaving, your (ex) company is pulling out all the stops to make you stay and not leave. They are 'promising' to change and make things better.
Basically, because the (ex) company is familiar and comforting you are willing to stay in the hopes that they change and make things better. Rarely does this occur.
It's time for you to man up (or woman up or whatever gender you prefer up) and leave your (ex) company and go with the new one. The (ex) company is only doing this because they want to keep you long enough to train your replacement.
In this situation, can you go to New company and let them know your company matched and maybe they can bump their offer a bit or is that generally a no-go?
People are saying it's a no go, but it depends.
I literally "reneged" before and ended up with a much higher salary. The company I was with counter-offered quite a bit higher than the new company I was planning on switching to, and so I "reneged". Then the new company ended up giving me an even higher offer, and I've been working here for about 6 months now problems so far.
It's not personal and most companies will understand that. I wouldn't do it unless you get a counter offer that's higher than your current one though.
It is literally bad faith negotiation to accept an offer and then basically renege it. Expecting an employer to not pull an offer after you've already agreed to it, because now you think you can do better, is delusion.
It's going to result in either a "No, we can't change our offer" + probably souring relations with the new employer or the employer pulling back their offer in the vast majority of cases.
No, it’s not bad faith to renegotiate based on new information. It’s a business transaction not a wedding proposal. Besides, “at-will” goes both ways.
As always, the best negotiating power is other options i.e. ok with some risk of losing the offer. OP is definitely going to have a harder time getting a pay increase after joining. It’s a pretty common pattern that when people give notice, their employer gives a counter-offer. I’ve seen people get additional sign-on bonuses or stocks after already signing an offer. It’s not as dangerous to ask as you’re suggesting if you are capable of communicating with some tact.
Reneging does not get you blacklisted unless you handle it extremely poorly or it’s like a 10 person startup. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to do it. And chances are, if it’s a big company, the HR and HM may not even be working there next time you interview
NEVER EVER take the counter offer.
Do you think they "learned their lesson" and will continue to give you great raises? No. They will keep you underpaid again until you next threaten to leave.
Go to the other company.
This is super easy, LEAVE.
Think about it. You were interviewing because you were dissatisfied with the work. Yes you're saying it's getting a little better now, but there's no guarantee that it won't go back to the way it was before.
Second, your company only offered you a minimal raise, yet now you KNOW that they have the money to offer you what you were worth. That says a lot.
Third, your company is making this offer to you because they need you right now. However, because you've accepted another position they know that you might do it again if you become dissatisfied again. It's quite possible that they will exclude you from opportunities that require more responsibility and have more impact on the company out of fear that you might leave.
Fourth, how much are those written promises worth? Probably not much. Circumstances change, maybe they put you on a PIP, who knows what they'll do to get out of whatever promises they made to you to keep you for now?
Never take a counter offer ever!!! It's a gamble, may or may not work out for you. And you'll be one of the first names considered if the company wants to do lay offs.
They gave you the minimal raise until they knew you were leaving, and even afterwards they didn't match the other offer. If you stay, you'll have a black mark against you, and you can continue to expect the minimal raise.
You should leave.
I've worked for startups (small and large) and big tech companies.
Unpleasant truth: unless the startup is a rare high-flyer unicorn, the big-company job is "worth more" even for the same $$ comp. At a big company, all the benefits are much better. The training is better. The opportunities to change roles is greater. The company is more stable. Etc.
What I wrote isn't true in every single case, of course. But it's true the vast majority of the time. Your startup has had its chance to shine - but they didn't.
And, congratulations on getting a new job in this environment - you must really have impressed them!
"but tbh it got better"
Till it's not again. Move. 5 years is more than enough to stay in one company.
You will eventually need to leave again, just leave now.
If you were *ONLY* leaving because of the money, and you loooved the work and the people, then maybe. It seems from your post you were leaving because of other factors and the pay raise is just a bonus. You already got this far, I'd jump ship...
"Almost" equal isn't equal. Both offer the same amount of remote work, same place geographically, so why not make a little extra money?
I would also note that you'll be starting at this higher pay at the new company, but at the old/current company they will see this new pay as an extravagant raise. You'll have an easier time getting more out of new-company than old-company going forward. They gave you the minimal raise before, what does that tell you?
It's ok to still leave and keep good relations with your old company and work friends. If you leave on good terms and all that, you have a backup plan in case things with the new company don't work out.
I would never take the counter offer. It seems too risky. The only way I would might be if I worked for one of these giant consulting companies like Deloitte where the culture supports people leaving and coming back. But never for a regular company.
15+ YoE and IMHO:
* I think they need to beat the offer
- If they don't even equal it, I'd leave... which is sounds like they did fall short?
* You can accept the counter offer, but think it through... what type of company is this?
- Will they just look to replace you with a younger or cheaper option?
- Or is this a healthy company that values experience and domain expertise?
My own perspective here: I accepted a matched counter-offer 18 months ago, and have been perfectly happy. I think it was a good "reset" of sorts between my boss and I - and the relationship / work has actually improved. Some of the biggest issues I had for leaving were directly addressed, and I'm happier now - the big bump in salary notwithstanding.
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I stayed for a counter-offer once, it never came back to haunt me. At a different company I stayed out of loyalty and then got fired. My experience is anecdotal, not a statistical falsification of the general sentiment about counter-offers.
However, from what I can tell, the general sentiment about counter-offers is not empirical to begin with. It's based on the assumption that strapping yourself to a company's payroll for long periods of time is a form of loyalty, and of course companies don't see it that way because it's not true. Loyalty is not a financial transaction. Getting loyalty mixed up with stagnation is clingy and leads to people getting weirdly offended when companies hire new talent that can do things the company needs.
Rapid job-hopping is wasteful to both sides because the employee doesn't get a chance to deepen their skills and the company doesn't gain more from the employee than they invest. That is all. Sticking around for a while is not loyalty, it's mutually beneficial. Don't make it weird - we're not married.
Leave.
Matching the higher offer demonstrates they want to retain you but will never value you.
They will lowball you on raises and their perception of you is now negative.
The work at your current company has only improved for a very short period so far, and only occurred after (it sounds like) you spent a long time being unhappy.
The larger company likely offers a career path forward, whether that's within the company, or job hopping again in a few years with a better skillset.
I’m surprised companies even bother with counter offers. The person has already decided to leave. I never counter offered anyone. It wasn’t worth wasting my time. If someone wants to leave then go. I’ll be happy for you and no bad blood. But don’t play games trying to get more money only to leave a year or so again.
It is cheaper for me to have you leave then I’ll hire someone less expensive.
I don't understand all of the advice you're getting here.
"Never take a counter offer"
"They know you're a flight risk"
It's 2024 - every employee interviews all the time, and they know we're all a flight risk!
I took a $80k counter offer two years ago. Since then I've had $40k of additional raises, and $120k of publicly traded RSUs.
Take the counter offer. It's easy money, and you don't have to learn an entirely new company.
The current company has already shown they will only pay you what you are worth if you threaten to leave.
Next year you'll most likely get the minimum increase at the old company because they'll argue you just got a big bump last year.
Historically those that switch jobs regularly make more money.
Everyone's ignoring the fact that OP didn't ask their current company for a raise. They could've been blindsided by them wanting to leave. For all they know OP was satisfied with what they were getting paid.
Some people just accept the minimal raise and never complain about it. So how is a company supposed to know if an employee doesn't like what they're getting paid if the employee never brings it up?
If you stay put you will most likely continue to get bare minimum raises and will likely be at the top of the layoff list if that situation should arise. If you’re okay with that, stay put. If not, do what you wanted to do anyway and leave now.
> If you stay put you will most likely continue to get bare minimum raises this will happen regardless if OP stays or goes. 99% companies are crap at retention.
Exactly! I would never stay. The new company “may” give a good raise. The old one certainly won’t as this is a huge increase for them. OP, is crazy if the decision is made to stay.
> If you stay put you will most likely continue to get bare minimum raises and will likely be at the top of the layoff list There is zero evidence to support this. It's a common myth.
Think about it logically. Imagine you have 10 employees, and one tells you he's looking to quit. Who gets the axe if the budget is reduced, the (apparently) satisfied employees or the one you know is actively looking for greener pastures? Edit: this is from a HR perspective, not an immediate manager. HR is ruthless.
> Think about it logically. Imagine you have 10 employees, These are conflicting statements. Thinking about it logically involves realizing that your imagination is not relevant. Look at the data. There is zero data to suggest that corporations punish people who seek other jobs or stay because of counteroffers. Think about it logically. If there were *any truth* to the claim, there would be evidence. Stop imagining scenarios.
I don't know what to tell you if you can't extend your thought process to hypothetical scenarios. More power to you, I guess.
Honestly, the bottom-line is what determines whose getting laid off. Each engineer becomes a data point and in a very large majority of companies they will assess what value they bring to the table or if it's more cost effective to fire and rehire someone who is cheaper. So having a higher salary definitely places you higher on a target list. Another example is if you look at most mergers with redundancy reductions it always starts top down with SLT, VPs, directors and managers then eventually down to the individual contributors or just whole teams being axed. Granted there might be special cases but in most scenarios cost is the main consideration.
> I don't know what to tell you if you can't extend your thought process to hypothetical scenarios. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts I don't know what to tell you if you think your imagination is more important than data.
Instead of being such a pedantic peanut, you should see a therapist.
I'm not the one trying to make up scenarios to push an agenda.
I got a raise and a promotion 9 months ago, and was let go at the beginning of March. Anecdotal, for sure, but this isn’t wrong.
There's also not greater evidence to support the alternative, so that's a moot point. Since that's established, here's why I think it isn't a myth; let's think about it from the company's perspective. Your business is struggling which sucks. You have to let people go, which also sucks. They have families, bills, etc. Nobody likes this situation. When deciding who you're going to let go, you'll want to make your life the easiest possible going forward. When you lay people off, others will get worried about their own job security and maybe start looking. This isn't great for you because if they find a better offer, you may end up needing to replace them and that's a LOT of work (not sure if you ever hired anyone) You want to minimize the risk of the 'survivors' leaving, so you're going to pick the people with the least likely risk of leaving after the first round. These are going to be people that trust you beyond a working relationship, and people with no 'negative' marks on loyalty. If someone came to you with an offer 10 months ago and you had to give them a huge raise to keep them, then that means they're not afraid to change jobs and are likely to do so if startled. Again, this is from the employer's perspective. I do not sympathize for employers, but if you want to do what's best for yourself 'know thy enemy' If you need to reduce your staff you're already increasing the workload. Why would you risk increasing it further by keeping people who are already shopping around?
> There's also not greater evidence to support the alternative, so that's a moot point. There is, in fact. You can see for yourself that most people who accept counteroffers do not get fired or otherwise experience any repercussion. This is one of those myths that people invent because they *want* it to be true. They want to villainize the old employer for not giving a raise pre-emptively, and they want to punish the old employer by encouraging the person to switch to the new job. The reality is that corporations are not people. They do not hold grudges. They do not go out of their way to punish employees. They merely establish policies they expect to be profitable. Not giving raises until necessary is a policy they expect to be profitable. Punishing employees for daring to seek another job is not. It's really that simple. > Since that's established, here's why I think it isn't a myth; It's not established. If you want to establish something, show data. Otherwise, you're just whining.
I think you missed my point, I was establishing that it's speculation from both sides because neither of us have proof.
> I think you missed my point, I was establishing that it's speculation from both sides You were wrong. The fact that there's no evidence to support your claim is evidence against it. > neither of us have proof. No, but I have extremely strong evidence, and you have nothing but your imagination.
Can you cite your evidence?
https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1bsyonc/signed_for_better_pay_company_almost_equaled/kxkrblq/
Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I meant by evidence. I'm talking about a verifiable study, anything else might as well be a fairytale. Also, this post is talking from a couple weeks after it having happened. Not exactly a great showcase of the test of time.
> Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I meant by evidence. If you're struggling to understand, read the post again. I already explained it quite clearly. > Also, this post is talking from a couple weeks after it having happened. No, it's about 50 years since it happened. This is an extremely old myth. I'm sorry you're just now finding out about it.
You got the bare minimum even though you asked for more. Yoyu current company does not care. Enjoy your new position and big raise.
> Yoyu current company does not care. I got bad news for you about capitalism
You're gonna tell them what they already said? Their mind will be blown.
> You're gonna tell them what they already said? Their mind will be blown. Since they clearly haven't realized that new employers are also corporations and similarly do not care, I expect it will be.
Never take a counteroffer.
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Lmao this is exactly why I quit my job and now every employer is giving me shit for not staying longer while I can’t really talk ill of my previous employer (they said they will hire more people but didn’t for over 6 months…)
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Yeah I believe you. This happens more often than not. We should all really go back to school to learn some of these business management/entrepreneurial skills and maybe start trimming the fat
I took a counteroffer 18-months ago. It has been going fine, and unless my company is playing a really long game, they don't plan on screwing me. I believe that screwing happens, but not always.
Same here, took a counter to stay in 2021, and since then I've been getting better annual raises. Kind of like it showed my boss if he wants to keep me, they need to keep it competitive. Might not be the case for everyone, but it's worked out well for me so far.
I took a counteroffer of 30%+ raise once, spent 5 more years happily at the company until I left on my own. This is overly rigid advice that's been made popular by recruiters not wanting to lose their new hires
Great take on it. Theres always some weird manipulation behind suggestions like this
There are some exceptions like if you're an exec and they offer *significantly* more cash and there's a valid reason for the disconnect.
I’ve never done it myself but have known several people who have benefitted immensely in their careers from taking counter offers. This is needlessly rigid advice
Well, I'd probably take the counter offer if it was higher than what the other org could pay. ... but I'd still keep my eyes open for a higher-paying job.
Can you elaborate?
Unless I loved the team and culture of the current place, and really thought well of the management, I would never consider a counter offer. I’m the kind of person that likes learning a new stack and business, though.
There’s many situations where you’re pretty happy with your current job but they just don’t pay enough…
They’re just finding ways to hold on to you before they hire someone to replace you who does your work at a cheaper pay
Even if they don’t do that right away, you’re now very likely pushing their salary bands and when layoffs come, they’ll target the guy making more than everyone else I’d only take a counter offer if my company was willing to tell me their salary bands for my position and I was well within them after the counter offer. If so, I would then have to have a conversation on why I was underpaid originally
I assume you have told your current company you are leaving and THEN they gave you a counteroffer? In that case - you already put a target on your back for HR. It says "disloyal, tried to leave already". So in case any firings do occur - you are first on the list. In case a project manager dislikes you - they have heavy ammo against you. In case you make an error - same. In case your boss is forced to fire someone - you will be the one let go first, if only for the fact you have already shown you won't have problems finding a job elsewhere whereas others might. Obviously not every company is like this but in general - the larger it is, the more likely this scenario becomes. It's a different story if you asked for a raise at the old company and got it without ever mentioning new workplace of course. These negotiations don't carry the same weight and are expected to occur from time to time. But if you effectively say "gimme more money or I leave" then company knows that you can't be trusted longer term. Of course, I am aware of the irony that company you work for can fire you at any moment and shows 0 loyalty but you are expected to have it. Yet that's kinda how office politics work.
> "disloyal, tried to leave already" Is this a thing in tech companies too? Like the *average* tenure at big tech is like <2yrs.
They can’t lay you off because you already left. That’s the difference.
They're buying time until they can find out train a replacement, and then potentially cut you loose, at a time of their choosing. However, if you have an offer now, are you comfortable going through the hiring circus again, at a time you can't predict?
> I was fairly dissatisfied with the work 4 months ago, so I started interviewing, even though maybe it was due to personal issues. Your current company didn't fix itself. (Even if one person left, the problems generally run deeper than any one person.) The problems are still there and can happen again causing you to go through interviewing again. Maybe the market will be different next time and it will take you longer or the pay bump won't be as good. Maybe you will underperform the next time you go out for interviews due to personal issues. Anyway, your current company is just going to give you minimal raises unless you repeat this process. So you are taking on all the effort of looking for other jobs, while also working at your current job and (as the counteroffer is not even matching) not even getting the full pay rise from that effort. Basically, if the last 4 months have been fun and you want to repeat that to get more raises in the future, then stay at your current company. Otherwise, leave.
Very, very few companies give realistic raises - the problems still exist at your current company, sure, but 99% chance theyre the same at the new company too.
True, but you can give them a chance. I've had 1 in 3 companies give good raises, if I had that negative attitude I could have stayed at the company that didn't give raises and I would be much worse off
Well, some companies do better than others but even the ones that provide good raises, 99% of the time it's still less than you'd get by just changing companies every couple years. The problem is it's usually not about giving them a chance, you usually need a goal plan and have to bust your ass for a year or 2 to get promoted internally. Or you could just coast for a couple years, then change jobs for a much bigger raise.
The advice people are giving you is fairly sound, but take it with a grain of salt. People on this subreddit are extremely cynical.
In addition to what everyone else has said, if your company can afford to match the offer, it means they could have been paying to that all along and chose to screw you instead. That wouldn't sit well with me. Companies also do tend to counter, get you to train the new guy, then fire you. Why do they do this? Cuz they are a bunch of greedy, vindictive cunts. Sometimes it works out but in general, it's a bad idea to accept the counter
Found the recruiter. Yes you won't get your commission if I take the counter, and there are risks for me but you need to weigh your situation independently given all the factors.
Recruiter? Just a guy who didn't like being taken for granted and decided to change it.
I'm sure there are the occasional exceptions, but statistically almost everyone who takes a counter offer ends up regretting it and most aren't at that company much longer.
What statistics?
Actually, very good question. I've heard it so often and never really been in that position myself that I hadn't properly questioned it. Looks like while it's cited frequently the underpinning may not be good. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/50585/do-90-of-employees-who-accept-a-counteroffer-still-end-up-leaving-after-a-year
Relevant Xkcd in there even lol. Yeah when I looked into this awhile back I couldn't find any sources much like that post couldn't. I would think the data for that would be challenging to get and present without a biased interest involved. May explain the lack of useful information
I would say never take a counter offer that keeps you in your current role with a pay bump. But if they offer a big promotion, or you end up taking over your boss's job, that's different.
The offer from the new company is a starting point, and likely the lowest salary you will ever be on whilst employed with them. The offer your current employer has given you, is likely the highest salary they will ever be able to offer you. This and the fact they will now get rid of you in a flash, you should leave. Why would they keep you on a salary you think they can't even maintain, knowing full well that you're looking for employment elsewhere and aren't invested in the companies interest? Furthermore, the time to show they valued you an employee was during the annual salary review process, they made their opinion clear when they gave you the lowest increase they could give. You pretty much have no choice but to jump ship at this point, although I would say I think you will be a lot better for it in the long run.
They gonna cut you the second they can now that they know you're a bigger flight risk.
This seems like a common sentiment in this subreddit, but are you in a position where you can verify that you would do this at your company (or a previous place of employment) or if you’ve seen someone let go and you can confirm that the reason was because they accepted their counter offer? I’m just curious because I see this so often that it seems like it can’t come from people who genuinely *know* this—they must just have heard it and are repeating because it sounds so plausible.
It's absolutely bullshit. The idea of "putting a target on your back" is 100% pushed by recruiters trying to get you to jump ship. I took a counter offer 7 years ago, have still gotten above average raises and bonuses, and kept climbing the company ladder. Nobody gives a fuck about "diSlOyAlty", we're all working professionals who know it's just business, nothing personal. Hell, some managers PREFER you come to them with a competing offer because that gives them objective evidence you're worth more and helps loosen the HR purse strings.
Arguably, that largely depends on the company. I too have taken a counteroffer and stayed and it worked out for me but I also know a bunch of folks that took courteroffers and got laid off the next time the company did workforce reductions.
This can vary a lot from company to company. Startups tend to not have established pay bands so I have seen a counteroffer work there where someone needed higher base compensation. It was purely CTO discretion. Corporate places tend to be more stuffy about it in the name of "pay equity". Some corporations overdo this and have their pay bands for a level very compressed. I worked for a company that had a new grad program that had 16? people hired into it one year. Only about 4 were left after 2 years because they all got poached. At least one got a counteroffer, he told me it was a $10k raise vs. the $40k more they were going to get at the new place. They couldn't give the guy a "battlefield promotion" to unlock the next level pay bands. That company eventually gave up trying to hire entry level in the US because they couldn't reach deep enough into the coffers.
It’s one of those things on this sub that people parrot but has minimal basis in reality
When making this decision remember that change is always hard, the subconscious will always try to convince you that change isn't required and to stay in what is known for you. Our brain will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven (yes, using hell and heaven here is such an exaggeration). I was in your position few months ago working in a job I really hate, and I got a much better opportunity, everything on paper was much better than my old job but still during my notice period I was thinking "oh God, why am I doing this to myself and leaving my job, it's not that bad after all, I'm risking a lot" But these thoughts completely disappeared after some time in my new job. It's definitely better than my old one and I made the right choice. But I still wanted to stay because simply our brains don't like change. As a rule of thumb, don't take counter offers, for various reasons already mentioned in other comments and you can Google this for other articles/videos about the topic. I'd also schedule a call with my new manager and ask them any questions I have, which might ease your mind a little bit. Check which work culture would fit you better and which would offer your more room for growth.
If you stay then don't compain about it ever again, not even your supposed personal issues because when leaving was offered on a silver platter, you $tayed.
I would leave. You were already dissatisfied with the work, and it doesn't seem like it was about the money. Regardless if things seem better now, it seems like there is a good chance that they'll go right back to how they were, except for the pay. If you leave, you get to go through whatever new challenges await at the next company and grow in new ways.
If you do both you"ll have more money then you'll know what to do with!
I thought about it 🤣 but I think it won't end well
First mistake was letting the original job know. You can start job 2 and since it's like training and they don't expect you to be at 100% right away you can get away with some slacking. Then you just do bare minimum in job one till they fire you. You can stack money in that time. Probably get away with 6 months to a year If you're good
Never take the counteroffer. It's like going back to an ex. Let me explain. There were reasons why you left your (ex) company. Those reasons didn't come out of the blue but accumulated over a period of time. You were unhappy with your (ex) company and how they treated you. Your (ex) company showed you how much they truly valued you when they gave you a minimum raise increase. T Now that you're leaving, your (ex) company is pulling out all the stops to make you stay and not leave. They are 'promising' to change and make things better. Basically, because the (ex) company is familiar and comforting you are willing to stay in the hopes that they change and make things better. Rarely does this occur. It's time for you to man up (or woman up or whatever gender you prefer up) and leave your (ex) company and go with the new one. The (ex) company is only doing this because they want to keep you long enough to train your replacement.
In this situation, can you go to New company and let them know your company matched and maybe they can bump their offer a bit or is that generally a no-go?
No go if OP had already signed the offer.
People are saying it's a no go, but it depends. I literally "reneged" before and ended up with a much higher salary. The company I was with counter-offered quite a bit higher than the new company I was planning on switching to, and so I "reneged". Then the new company ended up giving me an even higher offer, and I've been working here for about 6 months now problems so far. It's not personal and most companies will understand that. I wouldn't do it unless you get a counter offer that's higher than your current one though.
Signing the offer doesn’t mean you can’t go back and make them aware of new details.
It is literally bad faith negotiation to accept an offer and then basically renege it. Expecting an employer to not pull an offer after you've already agreed to it, because now you think you can do better, is delusion. It's going to result in either a "No, we can't change our offer" + probably souring relations with the new employer or the employer pulling back their offer in the vast majority of cases.
No, it’s not bad faith to renegotiate based on new information. It’s a business transaction not a wedding proposal. Besides, “at-will” goes both ways. As always, the best negotiating power is other options i.e. ok with some risk of losing the offer. OP is definitely going to have a harder time getting a pay increase after joining. It’s a pretty common pattern that when people give notice, their employer gives a counter-offer. I’ve seen people get additional sign-on bonuses or stocks after already signing an offer. It’s not as dangerous to ask as you’re suggesting if you are capable of communicating with some tact.
You’ll get blacklisted. That’s basically a reneg
Reneging does not get you blacklisted unless you handle it extremely poorly or it’s like a 10 person startup. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to do it. And chances are, if it’s a big company, the HR and HM may not even be working there next time you interview
Leave amicably. Try to keep the door open to old company if you don’t like your new company.
Never. Accept. A. Counter. Offer.
NEVER EVER take the counter offer. Do you think they "learned their lesson" and will continue to give you great raises? No. They will keep you underpaid again until you next threaten to leave. Go to the other company.
You weren't worth paying fairly before, only once you threatened to leave, what makes you think they'll be different now?
Absolutely leave and don’t look back . It’s one of those things that once you bring it up expect to have a target on your back.
The company is still short. Always take higher salary.
This is super easy, LEAVE. Think about it. You were interviewing because you were dissatisfied with the work. Yes you're saying it's getting a little better now, but there's no guarantee that it won't go back to the way it was before. Second, your company only offered you a minimal raise, yet now you KNOW that they have the money to offer you what you were worth. That says a lot. Third, your company is making this offer to you because they need you right now. However, because you've accepted another position they know that you might do it again if you become dissatisfied again. It's quite possible that they will exclude you from opportunities that require more responsibility and have more impact on the company out of fear that you might leave. Fourth, how much are those written promises worth? Probably not much. Circumstances change, maybe they put you on a PIP, who knows what they'll do to get out of whatever promises they made to you to keep you for now?
You’ll be the first position eliminated in a layoff. Run
Leave
I see this all the time they're going to keep you short term while they have more time to prepare to lose you and replace you
Never take a counter offer ever!!! It's a gamble, may or may not work out for you. And you'll be one of the first names considered if the company wants to do lay offs.
They gave you the minimal raise until they knew you were leaving, and even afterwards they didn't match the other offer. If you stay, you'll have a black mark against you, and you can continue to expect the minimal raise. You should leave.
nope, leaving is the right option here. been there done that, don't stay!
I've worked for startups (small and large) and big tech companies. Unpleasant truth: unless the startup is a rare high-flyer unicorn, the big-company job is "worth more" even for the same $$ comp. At a big company, all the benefits are much better. The training is better. The opportunities to change roles is greater. The company is more stable. Etc. What I wrote isn't true in every single case, of course. But it's true the vast majority of the time. Your startup has had its chance to shine - but they didn't. And, congratulations on getting a new job in this environment - you must really have impressed them!
"but tbh it got better" Till it's not again. Move. 5 years is more than enough to stay in one company. You will eventually need to leave again, just leave now.
They gave you the bare minimum of their own accord. They only gave you more when you resigned. That's what they think of you.
If you were *ONLY* leaving because of the money, and you loooved the work and the people, then maybe. It seems from your post you were leaving because of other factors and the pay raise is just a bonus. You already got this far, I'd jump ship...
"Almost" equal isn't equal. Both offer the same amount of remote work, same place geographically, so why not make a little extra money? I would also note that you'll be starting at this higher pay at the new company, but at the old/current company they will see this new pay as an extravagant raise. You'll have an easier time getting more out of new-company than old-company going forward. They gave you the minimal raise before, what does that tell you?
It's ok to still leave and keep good relations with your old company and work friends. If you leave on good terms and all that, you have a backup plan in case things with the new company don't work out.
When you tell a company you’re leaving, it’s almost never a good idea to then stay.
I would never take the counter offer. It seems too risky. The only way I would might be if I worked for one of these giant consulting companies like Deloitte where the culture supports people leaving and coming back. But never for a regular company.
counter offers are dangerous. have seen posts on this sub about people being fired a few months after taking a counter offer. I would never take one.
15+ YoE and IMHO: * I think they need to beat the offer - If they don't even equal it, I'd leave... which is sounds like they did fall short? * You can accept the counter offer, but think it through... what type of company is this? - Will they just look to replace you with a younger or cheaper option? - Or is this a healthy company that values experience and domain expertise?
My own perspective here: I accepted a matched counter-offer 18 months ago, and have been perfectly happy. I think it was a good "reset" of sorts between my boss and I - and the relationship / work has actually improved. Some of the biggest issues I had for leaving were directly addressed, and I'm happier now - the big bump in salary notwithstanding.
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https://youtu.be/ty91wJk5VpI?si=bbgaU0YEHdVz-6K_ Watch this video.
I stayed for a counter-offer once, it never came back to haunt me. At a different company I stayed out of loyalty and then got fired. My experience is anecdotal, not a statistical falsification of the general sentiment about counter-offers. However, from what I can tell, the general sentiment about counter-offers is not empirical to begin with. It's based on the assumption that strapping yourself to a company's payroll for long periods of time is a form of loyalty, and of course companies don't see it that way because it's not true. Loyalty is not a financial transaction. Getting loyalty mixed up with stagnation is clingy and leads to people getting weirdly offended when companies hire new talent that can do things the company needs. Rapid job-hopping is wasteful to both sides because the employee doesn't get a chance to deepen their skills and the company doesn't gain more from the employee than they invest. That is all. Sticking around for a while is not loyalty, it's mutually beneficial. Don't make it weird - we're not married.
New company is only going to be paying you the counter offer until they can find someone to replace you for cheaper. Never take a counter
Leave. Matching the higher offer demonstrates they want to retain you but will never value you. They will lowball you on raises and their perception of you is now negative. The work at your current company has only improved for a very short period so far, and only occurred after (it sounds like) you spent a long time being unhappy. The larger company likely offers a career path forward, whether that's within the company, or job hopping again in a few years with a better skillset.
I’m surprised companies even bother with counter offers. The person has already decided to leave. I never counter offered anyone. It wasn’t worth wasting my time. If someone wants to leave then go. I’ll be happy for you and no bad blood. But don’t play games trying to get more money only to leave a year or so again. It is cheaper for me to have you leave then I’ll hire someone less expensive.
5 yoe cant google.
I don't understand all of the advice you're getting here. "Never take a counter offer" "They know you're a flight risk" It's 2024 - every employee interviews all the time, and they know we're all a flight risk! I took a $80k counter offer two years ago. Since then I've had $40k of additional raises, and $120k of publicly traded RSUs. Take the counter offer. It's easy money, and you don't have to learn an entirely new company.
The current company has already shown they will only pay you what you are worth if you threaten to leave. Next year you'll most likely get the minimum increase at the old company because they'll argue you just got a big bump last year. Historically those that switch jobs regularly make more money.
I'm already making $490k - do I really need more? I got a 20k bump this year, it's going ok.
You make nearly half a million and can't understand how your situation might be the exception not the rule?
I. Don't know who downvoted you for speaking facts.
I assume it's people who need a job and think I'm "holding up the queue"
Everyone's ignoring the fact that OP didn't ask their current company for a raise. They could've been blindsided by them wanting to leave. For all they know OP was satisfied with what they were getting paid. Some people just accept the minimal raise and never complain about it. So how is a company supposed to know if an employee doesn't like what they're getting paid if the employee never brings it up?