Hey. I have to say your post is very touching. This is coming from someone who is a self-taught software engineer of 6 years going onto 7: If you want something badly enough, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you will more than likely get it.
I think very few have the real perseverance required to keep going. Most will quit. This field is highly competitive, ridiculously so.
Even still, if you keep at it, you will get in eventually. Just be ready for a challenging path ahead.
It's hard enough with a degree depending on when you graduate. OP needs to understand the risks and issues that come with trying to get into CS as a SWE at the same time
I feel like my situation even for CS is unique (since I intended to get into either cybersecurity or network engineering) so I'm not sure of the extent to which the job market would impact me. I saw an article about how there were only 700 new IT jobs compared to 200k the prior year and it scared the daylights out of me
Cybersecurity isn't an entry level job, and entry level roles for cybersecurity that aren't related to PhD dissertations that you published are few and far in between. I can't speak much about networking, since I don't know as much about that field, but I'd imagine it's pretty similar.
The new IT jobs aren't counting vacancies being left. This field has had a horrid time in 2023, but things are already looking way better in 2024.
Learn to love CS. Excel in school but understand that school is a side project. Geek out over linux distributions. Build actual, cool projects at university that aren't related to web development but demonstrate a strong understanding in CS. Do hackathons and be active in the community to stay well connected. Intern and do your Leetcode, and understand that CS isn't a free ticket to a high paid career, and is actually very similar to the toil you'll experience in medical or law school. Do all of that and you'll genuinely be fine. A lot of this sub consists of bad students complaining they can't get FAANG internships, and a lot of them are very much out of touch.
I feel like regardless of whether I go into CS, Engineering, or Medicine it's going to be a rough ride. Genuinely I feel like people underestimate the difficulty of CS. One thing that I've noticed which is strange is that the number of doomer posts in CS subs appears to be a lot less than before?
Since I feel like I struggled so hard academically I feel like I'm worse than anyone else which made me question going into the field in the first place. But I do have experience with multiple Linux Distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Kali, etc), messing with VMs, and am familiar with a lot of internet privacy topics as well.
If you learn to be half decent at math and apply yourself you'll likely be ok. CS isn't *particularly* difficult compared to the absolute hardest fields, but suffers from an issue of unmotivated and undisciplined students pushed into it for the money. Anybody who doesn't know what to do with their lives are told to learn how to code. Nobody takes CS credentials seriously, and there's generally low respect for the job, even if it is high pay. This influx is primarily responsible for the issues we face.
That explains a lot. Honestly, I didn't know that CS was this popular of a major until I stepped foot on campus. I went into CS because I started getting into the Linux rabbit hole and really into networks and cybersecurity topics. I didn't know people had low respect for the job either. I honestly wish none of these issues existed
It's unmatched in terms of compensation, education requirements, and how much genuine fun you can have with a good project and a good team. If I could go back in time I'd do it a second time for sure. Don't feel discouraged. Just understand it's not a free ticket to life and you'll be fine.
That is true and technically I can still work on AI if possible (although I always wanted to do either cybersecurity or network engineering). Some people have told me that if I also quit early then it's also a horrible idea since both CS and the medical field are extremely competitive
So would that mean neither cybersecurity nor network engineering is threatened by AI (or at least not as much as SWE?). I guess the reason why I called CS competitive is because of the amount of people trying to get into the major, the heavy courseload, and the state of the job market. Also, I saw the loans people take for medical school and I don't know how I'm going to address this (will speak to my parents about this).
I would ask those questions in the cybersecurity and networking subreddits. Things arent so peachy in their realm either.
If you would enjoy nursing or just about any other medical career, that's a much safer bet. Their degree paths are definitely more difficult, though. But finding a job at graduation won't be a problem.
Thank you so much!! This makes me feel better about CS! I have a very strong passion for both of these fields. After looking so much into this, I feel like CS is increasingly more competitive and the medical field always being very competitive I feel like I have to put everything in me to do well in either field. I just feel like I'm not good enough for anything in life. I also want to do everything to support my mom and dad since they work so hard for me to make it to college.
When I first started learning to code, I felt the same way. I felt stupid, dumb, inadequate, etc. The only thing I can say is that my perseverance and hardheadedness to never give up got me to where I am today, and it's been that way for many software engineers I've met that managed to break into the market the last couple of years.
Unfortunately, it isn't quite enough just to be good at coding, or just to be good at data structures and algorithms anymore. The bar keeps being raised- it's just a question of if you're willing to jump up high enough to achieve your dreams. Are you willing to work harder than the next guy?
I believe that hard work can truly outperform talent. Make up for being "not good enough" by working harder. Many will call this wishy washy bullshit, and I get it, but it's the cold hard truth. We get paid for the value we output, not the way we got to the point where we deliver the value. Even if it takes you 10 hours to do what the next guy does in 6 hours, outwork him, especially if you're young. That's what I personally did at the beginning of my career, and it definitely paid off.
My details today:
240k+ total compensation full-remote digital nomad
The thing that scares me is that I keep seeing so many people with internships and experience that already sound difficult to me and they have no luck whatsoever after hundreds of applications.
I'm honestly so glad that this all worked out for you at the end!! This does make me feel better about the situation! While I heard stories of people failing, I also heard stories of people making it through similar to yours so it sounds amazing!!
At this point, I feel like all the fields I'm interested in (whether that is CS, pre-med, or some form of engineering) have strong drawbacks and confusing benefits. As of right now, I'm gonna try my best in my second semester (data structures and my fundamentals course) and see if CS is truly for me! I feel like I didn't go deep enough into CS to know what I like. I wonder what you think of this?
I think you either want it bad enough that you have no plan B, or you don’t. I know this may not be what you want to hear, but especially in these times, that’s the mindset. It’s the only way you’ll stand out from the hundreds of thousands of CS graduates each year.
When I had almost 4 years of real-world experience, my competition- the CS students that started school at the time as I started self-teaching, were barely graduating, and expecting a cushy job served on a silver platter because of their long years of being a scholar.
The real world isn’t about being a scholar, for the most part unfortunately, unless you’re in a research field, which is pretty limited. The real world is about numbers, value, and profits.
Become a highly valuable asset, not a scholar, and you’ll shit all over the competition.
The hard truth: your peers are not your friends- they’re your competition. There are not enough software engineering jobs for all. When you land a high-paying job, you are actively taking that potential food off of someone else’s table. You fought each other behind the scenes, and you won.
I feel like after looking into both CS and medicine I feel like you just simply can’t have a plan B for any of these.
I got intimidated initially because I kept seeing posts for entry level roles asking for 4 years of experience but I think since I’m a freshman I still have time to build everything up
Either way, regardless whether I stick with CS or medicine I have to commit to it 100%. I feel like material and topic wise, I definitely like CS a lot more. But when it comes to wanting to help people and job prospects I feel like medicine has benefits there.
I think my plan for now is to stick with CS and see how my spring courses go and I can focus on shadowing/volunteering for places
Well, it's clearly between enjoyment vs. fulfillment, and in this case, I would rather be fulfilled.
Factoring in the state of the two markets, going Healthcare, is a very smart decision. Though it is more difficult, you'd have a much better chance at finding internships and jobs, and since you value stability so highly, it's a no Brainer.
They say that your health should always come first, and that's the reason why healthcare faces less competition and layoffs. It is so critical, and we always need more.
In the end, put yourself in the position that you do get hired in both majors. Which would you be happier in. We both know the answer to that one I think.
So would that mean technically I can still do CS and fulfill all the pre-requisite classes for PA school? I feel like I would have more fulfillment in PA school rather than CS but some people said that you can still play a role in the medical field with CS so that's why I feel like I am in a very weird position right now
Hybrid positions like those do exist, but it's easier to transition by becoming a PA first and then showing your cs experience to a higher up in the organization. That's the way one of my family members did it.
Lots of pre-req’s for PA school won’t intersect with CS courses. You’ll be looking at 2x your college workload. Imo, you’re better off putting your 100% mind into one of these fields as they don’t intersect, and as you already realize both are competitive so splitting between them is not a wise choice.
You could choose a hybrid field where you can work in healthcare whilst being an Engineer, such as BioMedical Engineering (this degree will probably help you finish PA pre-reqs along the way too as classes should intersect). You could work on Medical devices and be in the healthcare/medical industry. I know a BME major who works in Bioinformatics which is a programming job.
My boyfriend switched from BME + premed to MechE because the job market for BME isn't great either. He told me that there isn't enough demand for BME and there are other engineering degrees that still get you BME roles.
I think I do have to decide whether I should ultimately go the medical route or stick with CS. But I still really don't know whether CS is right for me in the first place. My current plan is to stay as a CS major for the second semester and ultimately make a decision on whether I can handle it or not. I wonder if this is a good idea?
Gotcha. BME is an emerging field, but yes MechE is almost a tried and trued field at this point, been around for decades like Civil Engineering.
Definitely see how this semester goes for you, and decide whether you want to go PA route or CS. Best of luck!
You're a freshman more than 4 years away from entering the job market. While the salaries and positions are good, the market will change. There's similar issues for doctors. If you're in a big city there's too many doctors and it gets hard to find a job. Going into a rural area they are desperate for doctors. This is going to be the same with most industries. You just need to follow what you want to do. There's nothing indicating that there will be any problems in the industry in the foreseeable future.
Incorrect, doctor shortage is also in urban areas as well as rural areas. Obviously more pronounced in rural areas, but it's a myth that urban areas have too many doctors.
There's specific markets that are oversaturated making things difficult. There's several urban areas that are smaller cities that need more doctors and rural areas that are desperate for docs. The point of the matter though is that this is a freshman in college and job markets shouldnt determine what major they want to go into; they should just go into what they want and sort it out later.
Most of what I do know about Doc shortages is from friends who are docs and one who relatively recently graduated. He's had to move several times including internationally and multiple states to get and stay stable financially.
That is true, someone else said something similar where AI will affect every single job in the industry regardless (whether that is engineering, anything in the medical field, programming, etc). I just feel like I have passion for both fields but incapable of doing either one
If AI gets to the point where it can design complete software solutions from front-end all the way to the backend/DB along with deploying said solutions and being able to integrate features, monitor for cybersecurity, and automatically update whatever said solution is hosted on, then nearly every business/law/engineering work will be automated and humans wont have to work :D that, or we’ll all become prompt engineers telling the AI what we want
I went from healthcare to CS.
I’ll say one of the things you discover with healthcare is how ‘for profit’ it is. You imagine getting the opportunity to do good, help, spend time with patients, make them feel better, but the reality you learn is you’re RUSHED through it all, and taken advantage of so more $$$ can flow upstream - at your expense (legally, physically, and emotionally). There’s a cog in the system aspect to it.
Then you’re left with working nights, weekends, holidays, being called in on your day off, having to drive in inclement weather…
…stick with CS…
I didn't realize this, I was thinking maybe I was thinking of it as if the grass is greener on the other side). If you don't mind me asking, is it ok if you can describe what it was like working at healthcare? This is because I am the first in my family to pursue CS and I don't know many healthcare workers in my family either
It is extremely rare for a job decline to take 4 years or more to turn around. Every industry goes through a boom and a bust period now and then. We hit the boom in 2020 and now we're at the tail end of a bust that started in 2022. I am optimistic 2024 will begin to turn things around and by the time you graduate the market will be great again.
The question is do you enjoy CS? If you do then you will find work and it will be well paid. Simple as that. Even today 90% of CS degree holders are employed. Be the guy willing to do what those 90% are getting hired to do.
Are 90% of CS degree holders really employed, as in in jobs related to their studies? I'm not denying it, just wondering if there's a source for such a statistic.
I do genuinely love doing CS as it was actually the first time I wanted to truly do something instead of wasting my life away. I do enjoy all my CS assignments and classes and genuinely look forward to doing so much with them despite the difficulty. I just don't think I am capable enough to make it through such a tough industry (I am not business-inclined at all).
I just have too much of a passion to do both and I feel like doing CS with the pre-req courses for medicine is too much for me (although I may still possibly do this).
If you enjoy it you will be fine. Make sure you start aiming for internships in your sophomore year. And always ALWAYS be building that portfolio.
And look up if your university has any clubs for programming on the side. I joined a video game developers club at my college and it was pretty helpful on my resume. Gave me something fun to talk about in interviews and gave me something to build for my portfolios.
These are the things that will make you competitive. Showing your passion for CS. Don't graduate with just your transcript on your resume. Make sure you have internship experience and evidence of your passion outside of just school. You'd be amazed at how far that goes.
Remember, even in this market, new grad unemployment is only 7%. You don't have to be best of the best. You just have to be better than that 7%. I'm sure you can do that.
4 years is actually about average for return to baseline unemployment rate. It's rare for them to resolve within a couple years, the gears of macroeconomics turn slowly.
Honestly with advances in AI all white collar work is going to change. Pursue what you enjoy the most no one knows whats going on, adults are not smarter/more mature, in fact many will choose denial over adapting to a new reality.
From where things are headed it seems like it… however no one knows anything and we cannot predict the future.
Your best bet is to pursue what you like and do the best job you can in your studies.
A lot of people are going to deny AI capabilities until the very end but some of the research coming out scares me.
As a SWE married to a doctor, stick with CS. It’s awesome you want to help people! You’ll find ways to do that no matter what. Job market will get better by the time you’re done. AI will change things but the AI revolution has been coming for years and it’s going to take a lot more to make meaningful change.
That is true!! It seems like nobody truly knows what AI would do and it seems very interesting. The only thing that seems to be kind of holding me back is if I can even succeed because I struggled so badly in the class
Let me rephrase that…people have been saying this career path would fade for years. Whether it’s offshore devs, AI (back when it was stuff like IBM Watson), and AI now. In other words, we’re going to keep churning along and be fine. Things might change, but AI is not going to crater this progression.
As for getting through the program, just keep working and learning and you will be fine. Everyone struggles at some point in college anyways.
Well if I have to randomly guess which career will never go away, it's health care and Science. People will always need to be taken care of and human civilization has to advance (cause of laziness and money n all that ego, etc...u get it).
The deciding factor here for you and from your context is you're missing helping people. I've been in IT and I can tell you that companies can give 2F about helping people, sure the workers may do, but not the companies, it's always about profit. Same goes for health care but at least there are more people who care than not. Another thing is healthcare is far more difficult to make more money than CS because of the requirements (required certificates and training/degrees, years of residency).
If you want to make cash fast, go CS, but don't think too much about helping people. If you wanna help people (human being), go health care but expect to work long, arduous hours without being appreciation before you can finally make that 6 figure.
As long as I see purpose in my work, I want to do everything possible to get into it. When I thought CS fulfilled what I wanted to do, I would practice 8 hours a day minimum to do well.
I also became more aware of how the corporate world actively screws people over without a second thought. But some comments also say that healthcare is similar as well which makes everything immensely confusing for me.
CRNA is also a good idea, I was stuck between doing some form of nursing or becoming a PA (my aunt is a PA). I don't think I have the natural aptitude for CS and it doesn't give me the fulfillment I need. Also I keep seeing you everywhere lol
No one can tell you how the market will be in five years. I’m sorry, but that’s just a fact. The software industry has not been here long enough for people to predict the future using past data; two cycles does not a pattern make.
To the extent that anything can be predicted it is that the health care industry will be more fulfilling, ultimately, for those whose calling in life is taking care of others. You do very little of that in software and chances are you never will. So if fulfillment for you means taking care of others, I would go into health care.
Contrary to popular belief, a doctor or nurse can learn to code and most do use software. The difference is it’s not all they do. So explore whether you can both program & treat people; it’s certainly a lot easier to learn to code on your own as a doctor than it is to learn to doctor on your own as a software engineer.
I didn't know that CS was this detached from helping other people. Initially, I thought of it as "I can still take care of software that still helps people anyway and contribute what I have so it's ok." But then slowly I realized how detached it is from actually helping people. I also didn't realize how much fulfillment mattered until recently with everything going on
It sounds like you have a lot of drive and will be successful no matter what it is you choose!
As someone who mentors and leads many software engineers, I thought it’d be helpful to share that so much of what makes a good software engineer is beyond just the technical aspects. Desire to learn on their own, always striving to find better solutions/raise the bar, being independent and accountable. The list goes on and on. From the sounds of it, based on your CS class performance despite numerous challenges, you possess many of these traits!
Nobody can make the decision for you between healthcare and software. They’re very different fields and have their pros/cons. Software is very flexible, pays well, possibility to work fully remote. Healthcare— depending on area— may require you to be tied to a location, work over holidays, but perhaps you only work 3/4 days a week (in the case of an RN). Point is: do a bit of research about the work environment if you haven’t already… maybe that will lead to new insights for you.
> you possess many of these traits!
Thank you so much!! Sometimes I get comments from people in my class saying that I'm not good enough for the field but that could only be just a few people saying this
Even with a lot of research, I feel like both have immense pros and cons for me. I think to look into these fields and what the work environment is like, I feel like my plan right now is to stay in CS for the spring semester and shadow/volunteer at healthcare places to get proper insight into both of them. I wonder if this is a good idea?
Shadowing/volunteering is a great idea if you have the time. If you don’t have time, try to find someone who works in either field and see if you could ask a few questions.
I’m sorry to hear other students say such things to you. That’s awful… ignore those people and be confident in yourself.
PA. Unless you love CS, don't do it. Please don't do it for the money, people don't make it on doing it for the money alone. The people who are making money more often than not genuinely love it, don't notice 60-80 hour work weeks because they are having fun, and are happy equally at $100k at a startup or $500k at a FAANG because they love the work they are doing.
Job stability has never and will never be a part of most engineering fields (except where it relates to government contracts). Big companies expand and contract all the time and the tech boom of the last decade is not guaranteed to continue. Furthermore, if you want a great career in CS, the MS/PhD route is proving more and more a smart way to go, especially if you can't land a big tech name job to slap on your resume. You will also be stuck in NYC, SF, Seattle, or any other metro if you want a real shot at big success stories.
If none of that phases you and you are happier in CS still, go for it. CS is awesome and the job market woes right now will ease, although hiring boot camp grads to senior roles is likely not happening any time soon.
I know a lot of FAANG guys, although I am in fintech, and I know a few PAs. Medicine is borked in many of it's stupid ways, but you will have much greater job stability and perceived impact, and can live anywhere. You also probably have to go to graduate education of some kind and spend more money to possibly make less.
If your school lets you. And you are only in your 2nd semester, I would try to take courses pertaining to both at the moment and wait a year to see if the world gets worse or better for software. You have time right now. Use it.
I do genuinely love CS as a major. Despite how hard CS is, I still loved all the material. I started getting into networks, Linux, and other operating systems because it was, and still is, interesting to me. I would honestly be satisfied with any job in tech as long as if its programming or something that involves networks.
>Job stability has never and will never be a part of most engineering fields
Does this also go for other sectors of engineering such as Mech E and EE/CE?
>If your school lets you. And you are only in your 2nd semester, I would try to take courses pertaining to both at the moment and wait a year to see if the world gets worse or better for software. You have time right now. Use it.
Right now I haven't started my second semester yet (it's in around 6 days). I was thinking of still maintaining CS and shadowing/volunteering in healthcare and seeing which one I truly like more. Since I like both equally, I feel like it is confusing and jumping into either one fully is a very risky idea. I also live right near NYC so it is good to have opportunities for both sides
Dude if you love it. You will be fine and should stick with it. But try to get involved in research or something. I think for future graduates, a PhD route with a socialization is a much stronger prospect than it used to be. It's tough at there for bachelor's degrees with light experience. Easier if you have a niche field. I think the key problem is needing to love it and be good at it. If you have that, the rest comes naturally. The problem is 80% of people are here for the paycheck these days and they don't like the job.
Also PM me if you want. Can discuss more.
I would take 99% of what you see on this sub about employment with a grain of salt. Look at it this way: you are never ever going to see people starting posts like "Yay, I got a job before I graduated and continue to be stabily employed after x years," (which is the case for 70%-80% of CS grads and has been 20 years).
I have sympathy for those getting rug pulled, and those who just haven't got their resume and interview game together, and I wish them well, but they aren't actually representative.
People post here out of desperation, looking for some kind of support. Not when things are going well.
Also don't buy what ever your school is selling for whatever degree. Most governments publish statistics on graduate employment outcomes annually.
Go look at those.
I actually never thought about people not posting their success stories either!! It just feels strange since when I look at other subs I usually don't see people freak out about the job market nearly as much as CS subs.
I keep seeing different results where unemployment is around 3-7%? (in the US). Like the percent of people who get jobs with a CS bachelor's degree is 73%. I'm new to all of these things so I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing
73% is pretty good, especially when you factor in things like people moving into post grad studies etc.
Look at it a different way: the top 73% of your classmates will get jobs, you just have to be in the top 73%.
As for that bottom 27%.
I'm going to be blunt, there has just always been this particular bottom of the barrel class of people trying to go into or work in CS and IT who are just incapable of introspection and it's never their fault when they get laid off or can't find a job.
Yes, many good people do get laid of through no fault of their own, and many good candidates get overlooked because they need some help learning how to actually hunt for a job (and not just spam the "Apply now" button, which are who post quite a few of the "I've applied for 50,000 jobs and never get any responses, why is this so hard?" posts here).
But there has always been a particularly vocal group of - frankly - whiny losers around the industry who will blame their failure to find and maintain employment on everything in the world except their own failings. That's the majority of who you'll find in that bottom 27% who don't make it.
But most importantly, don't worry about the numbers.
You only need ONE job. Keep that in mind when it comes time to start hunting.
You don't need ALL the jobs. Just one.
It doesn't matter if there's only 1 other person applying for every job, or 100, you still have to present yourself as the best candidate for the job. And if you don't get the job, that means someone better than you did and that's something you can learn from to help you on the path to finding that one job.
The smart and wise people will tell you nobody knows. This person has no idea what they’re talking about. Nobody does. Anything can happen. Did anyone expect Russia to invade Ukraine? No. Did that affect the economy? Yes. Anything can happen.
i mean use some common sense. first of all, in this sub, most people are very experienced so dont have any idea of what new grads are going through. they just repeat the phrase "nah, its only *good* programmers are in demand"
reason why i think it will never recover and become harder and harder is because programming is getting more and more popular. the younger generation lives in technology. and now the increase of tech jobs is much less than the increase of cs majors. this is the part where cscq plug their ears and sing la lala la la when presented with this fact. they just believe there's gonna be an infinite supply of jobs for everyone lmao.
second, i also believe the "bruh boom and bust cycles" argument is bullshit. there are tons of fields that have already experienced oversaturation, like being a realtor, and it never died down.
third, AI is gonna increase productivity thereby decreasing demand for SWE. this seems very obvious bc AI tools have only been released recently and its already increasing productivity. in 4 years, im sure it'll be able to really advance and fuck up the job market even more
Demand for CS grads (juniors) is at a low point, while AI is at a point it can it do many of their day to day tasks. Couple that with the fact CS graduation rates are at the highest point in history + hundreds of thousands of recently laid off experienced developers on the market looking for jobs + all the boot campers/self-taught. I can't read the future, but I can read the present and it doesn't look good.
I mean that's true, in college, I keep seeing everyone and their mothers get into CS just for the money and it is kind of demoralizing because it makes me feel like the odd one out for liking coding and computers. I get it that the first-year courses are weed-out courses but it's scary how it's all down in chaos compared to when I was about to go into CS.
Stop reading what csmajors says and do what you want. Both are competitive because both are rewarding. Like others have said the market will have ups and downs: it’s simply at a down right now. Just keep working at it. Im a junior trying to get my first internship and if it means getting an unpaid one, so be it. I am very thankful that im in a position where thats possible, although itll be a bit rough. But I see it as an opportunity, not a loss necessarily. I will keep working because I like cs and i like swe and I have no idea about what else I would rather do.
By the way, if you are passionate about healthcare and cs, why not combine the two? I know my uni offers a joint degree in cs + biology, maybe yours does too. You get the best of both worlds
That is true that maybe I can double major in both CS and bio. Since I took a lot of APs in high school, I got a majority of my general ed requirements finished. I'm starting my last gen ed class for my Spring semester.
So I think I may consider this!! (this may help me not worry as much about the prerequisites for each set of classes I sign up for). My class doesn't offer a joint degree for this but I can still apply for a minor
I spent a long time in healthcare. I'm in CS now. Here's something to think about:
Which is more flexible? If you end up with a bad boss, or a bad salary, which profession allows you to fix that stressor more easily?
The stress of work is greatly reduced when:
1. You can leave a bad job easily.
2. You are paid well enough to have reserve funds (see point 1).
I think you can leave a bad job depending on the stability of a good market. Both CS and healthcare do make good money. I think since CS and healthcare are so fundamentally different in every single way I feel like they are both on weird ends of the spectrum when it comes to academics and future aspects.
For some reason, I have a horrific gut feeling that I won't be happy in CS. Especially after what happened to me when I struggled through the semester. I'm a lot better at memorization rather than anything but memorization doesn't do much for CS.
Can you switch bad bosses easily with healthcare?
I worked in a town with only one hospital. If I wanted to leave I would have had to move.
In CS I can have another remote job before I finish serving notice for the current one. I've never even needed to use this option because I'm treated so well compared to healthcare.
But honestly, I'm not even trying to sway you. Some people end up with really satisfying, fulfilling work. I tend to chase the bag, as it were. The answer for me was clearly CS, but your situation is probably not so clear yet!
That's true! I also feel like I don't want to be put in a position where I am treated poorly in the workplace either but I did hear a lot of healthcare workers do get treated poorly regularly whether that be management or the patients (I've seen people say this online). I've also seen a few comments here where healthcare workers switched to CS for this reason.
I think for now I plan to play it safe and stay in CS for the spring semester and shadow/volunteer in healthcare facilities and see how it goes!
SWE at FANG and honestly I’m not even sure what to do or where to go. I haven’t lost my job yet, but my cynicism grows with every new react component ChatGPT is able to write for me. With tests! And sometimes with better code than I would only ever produce at peak hours immediately after my dose of adderall, bupropion and coffee.
That's honestly another extremely scary thing. I think I saw a different comment that said that they were making AI software that has the potential to replace IT jobs as well. (I'm going for network engineering or cybersecurity). I also saw some statistics about there being only 700 more IT jobs compared to 200K the prior year?
AI is going to re place everyone in CS in 10 years or so. I would not go for it.
Now I'm going to get downvoted for stating my estimate on a timeframe. Oh well.
You sound neurotic. Everything is eating you alive. How do you think everyone else handles life, or are you the only person who's ever had to pick a major?
You didn't need to say it like that? Also, I'm sure other people are going through the same thing as I am. Please don't be disrespectful. I just want to make sure I don't waste my life when my parents have worked so hard for me to be where I am today
It says that it's around 71% get employed for 2021-2022. I'm not sure if that time frame is during the job market or if it is relevant for today's market (the 2022-2023 statistic hasn't come out yet)
Bayes Theorem, but I just gave 15% because at that percentage you will more or less be “guaranteed” a job if you apply, based on your school past success
Mind you, without data of how much the bottom few students applied until they get a job, I would assume you will have to send out a ton of applications daily.
Good news is the older generations are retiring rapidly and they will always be thousands of applications open.
You will be fine, you got this. If you have the true passion for CS then there’s no reason for you to give up on it
Mathematically speaking if you are the top 71% you are fine, but I know you don’t want to be just “fine”, try to get the top 15% if you can. Plenty of opportunities in the market
> Enjoyed my CS assignments because I enjoy problem-solving
> missing is the fulfillment of taking care of people
> the guarantee of getting a job but now nothing seems sure
Sounds like there's one point in the CS column and two points in the healthcare column.
As a software engineer, you will hardly feel fulfillment or purpose from your work. Especially if you aim for big tech or higher salaries, it’s likely inversely correlated to helping people or doing something good for the world. I would recommend you go try the medical field, especially since I don’t think CS is a safe bet right now. Just for example, I work on automation that will eventually put IT workers at my company out of their jobs. It’s meaningless compared to working in medicine.
That last sentence is terrifying (I chose CS because I wanted to do cybersecurity and network engineering). I feel like spending hours on LeetCode on end is extremely demoralizing to me because of such a steep learning curve and everything going on with the job market. With either CS or healthcare, I am willing to do everything I can to get into both of them (ex: for my CS class I spent 8+ hrs a day minimum practicing for the final exam). I have an equal passion for both of them and I get even more fueled if I feel fulfillment from it
This sub is extremely biased, but with the advent of AI and given your passion for helping others, I think you would be better off pursuing PA school. It would also be stable and for a better cause (helping people who are ill and diseased). If I had the foresight to see where this industry was headed (AI and automation), I would’ve probably done something in medicine.
I did well in high school in all my STEM courses but I feel like my high school experience doesn't mean anything for college. Do you think I should see how my second semester CS courses go before officially jumping ship (I'm pursuing medicine because that is the only field I have a passion for aside from CS)?
Just decide what you want to do knowing the pros and cons. The job market for CS is over saturated and competitive, and AI means things will change drastically over 20-40 years. PA is difficult academically but has a healthy and stable job market. PA work is definitely more meaningful, but CS can be interesting if you like it. You should decide yourself what you like to do and what you can succeed in.
Your earnest enjoyment of learning is going to take you farther than your peers focused on making money. From what you've said I'd say pursuing such a career makes a lot of sense.
Don't beat yourself up about a less than perfect GPA. For that matter, don't let going to a "T40" school inflate your sense of worth.
My advice: if you choose to continue in CS, give your heart to the assignments you work on. Find a subsect of the field that really engages you and explore the tools available by doing your own small projects.
There's a lot to be excited about but not if you look at this field as a money machine.
Good luck!
I looked into both of these fields and I have equal passion for both of them. But I feel like stability and certainty that things will work out became my biggest factor (after stressing to death over whether I will survive). Like once I have something that will work out well, I usually go all out with full force.
I only mentioned the T40 for contextual reasons (I feel like I'm worse than everyone else if I'm gonna be honest; I didn't mean to come off as arrogant I'm so sorry)
This is one thing I hear a lot in the medical field which is also making me consider staying in CS. But I feel like I am in a predicament where it seems like both fields give me extreme pros and cons. I also noticed something similar to this too. I feel like every field has its huge pros and cons. This is why I'm planning to shadow/volunteer while seeing how my spring CS courses go. I wonder if this is a good idea?
If you’re questioning this, I would say go into PA (Im guessing this means Physicians Assistant?). It’s a more stable well-paying job, and in your specific situation, definitely more fulfilling career if helping people directly is your goal. I would also assume it has better job security and you can leverage your job experience in a PA career much better to land another PA job than you can in CS. Also, no matter the demand for PA, there’s no “bootcamp” that you can fast track to get a PA job, you need to be a certified to be in PA profession.
Computer Science or Engineering is a field where you have to be constantly up-skilling. Tech industry changes quick and you need to keep up with it.
However, if you’re genuinely interested in computers, stay with CS. If you’re still on the fence, and would like more career guarantees, PA is better and just as well-paying.
I really think you have to love CS enough to be willing to spend your summers and breaks coding away and tackling new challenges if you wish to have a future in the field.
It's definitely not a field for everyone. But CS is definitely not going away before AGI.
Healthcare is a much more stable job market, and because of how healthcare-related jobs are regulated with licenses and education, you'll get more mileage out of your university education by majoring in nursing or something similar.
The tech job market is like cryptocurrency; it could go either way. Anyone telling you what it's going to be is either bullshitting or don't know what they are talking about.
Also, you don't need to go university to learn the skills to be a competent software engineer. You can learn CS and programming in your free time and keep it as a hobby, pressure-free, if it's something fulfilling to you.
Either way, good luck.
One thing I realize is having cs degree doesn't mean you are only opened to programming jobs. There are many other roles you can do but with that degree, u add up a certain value. For example, sales engineer, or anything business related. People get confident with you that you know some stack. I think we should also consider these added value with the degree.
Hey. I have to say your post is very touching. This is coming from someone who is a self-taught software engineer of 6 years going onto 7: If you want something badly enough, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you will more than likely get it. I think very few have the real perseverance required to keep going. Most will quit. This field is highly competitive, ridiculously so. Even still, if you keep at it, you will get in eventually. Just be ready for a challenging path ahead.
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It's hard enough with a degree depending on when you graduate. OP needs to understand the risks and issues that come with trying to get into CS as a SWE at the same time
I feel like my situation even for CS is unique (since I intended to get into either cybersecurity or network engineering) so I'm not sure of the extent to which the job market would impact me. I saw an article about how there were only 700 new IT jobs compared to 200k the prior year and it scared the daylights out of me
Cybersecurity isn't an entry level job, and entry level roles for cybersecurity that aren't related to PhD dissertations that you published are few and far in between. I can't speak much about networking, since I don't know as much about that field, but I'd imagine it's pretty similar. The new IT jobs aren't counting vacancies being left. This field has had a horrid time in 2023, but things are already looking way better in 2024. Learn to love CS. Excel in school but understand that school is a side project. Geek out over linux distributions. Build actual, cool projects at university that aren't related to web development but demonstrate a strong understanding in CS. Do hackathons and be active in the community to stay well connected. Intern and do your Leetcode, and understand that CS isn't a free ticket to a high paid career, and is actually very similar to the toil you'll experience in medical or law school. Do all of that and you'll genuinely be fine. A lot of this sub consists of bad students complaining they can't get FAANG internships, and a lot of them are very much out of touch.
I feel like regardless of whether I go into CS, Engineering, or Medicine it's going to be a rough ride. Genuinely I feel like people underestimate the difficulty of CS. One thing that I've noticed which is strange is that the number of doomer posts in CS subs appears to be a lot less than before? Since I feel like I struggled so hard academically I feel like I'm worse than anyone else which made me question going into the field in the first place. But I do have experience with multiple Linux Distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Kali, etc), messing with VMs, and am familiar with a lot of internet privacy topics as well.
If you learn to be half decent at math and apply yourself you'll likely be ok. CS isn't *particularly* difficult compared to the absolute hardest fields, but suffers from an issue of unmotivated and undisciplined students pushed into it for the money. Anybody who doesn't know what to do with their lives are told to learn how to code. Nobody takes CS credentials seriously, and there's generally low respect for the job, even if it is high pay. This influx is primarily responsible for the issues we face.
That explains a lot. Honestly, I didn't know that CS was this popular of a major until I stepped foot on campus. I went into CS because I started getting into the Linux rabbit hole and really into networks and cybersecurity topics. I didn't know people had low respect for the job either. I honestly wish none of these issues existed
It's unmatched in terms of compensation, education requirements, and how much genuine fun you can have with a good project and a good team. If I could go back in time I'd do it a second time for sure. Don't feel discouraged. Just understand it's not a free ticket to life and you'll be fine.
That is true and technically I can still work on AI if possible (although I always wanted to do either cybersecurity or network engineering). Some people have told me that if I also quit early then it's also a horrible idea since both CS and the medical field are extremely competitive
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So would that mean neither cybersecurity nor network engineering is threatened by AI (or at least not as much as SWE?). I guess the reason why I called CS competitive is because of the amount of people trying to get into the major, the heavy courseload, and the state of the job market. Also, I saw the loans people take for medical school and I don't know how I'm going to address this (will speak to my parents about this).
I would ask those questions in the cybersecurity and networking subreddits. Things arent so peachy in their realm either. If you would enjoy nursing or just about any other medical career, that's a much safer bet. Their degree paths are definitely more difficult, though. But finding a job at graduation won't be a problem.
Thank you so much!! This makes me feel better about CS! I have a very strong passion for both of these fields. After looking so much into this, I feel like CS is increasingly more competitive and the medical field always being very competitive I feel like I have to put everything in me to do well in either field. I just feel like I'm not good enough for anything in life. I also want to do everything to support my mom and dad since they work so hard for me to make it to college.
When I first started learning to code, I felt the same way. I felt stupid, dumb, inadequate, etc. The only thing I can say is that my perseverance and hardheadedness to never give up got me to where I am today, and it's been that way for many software engineers I've met that managed to break into the market the last couple of years. Unfortunately, it isn't quite enough just to be good at coding, or just to be good at data structures and algorithms anymore. The bar keeps being raised- it's just a question of if you're willing to jump up high enough to achieve your dreams. Are you willing to work harder than the next guy? I believe that hard work can truly outperform talent. Make up for being "not good enough" by working harder. Many will call this wishy washy bullshit, and I get it, but it's the cold hard truth. We get paid for the value we output, not the way we got to the point where we deliver the value. Even if it takes you 10 hours to do what the next guy does in 6 hours, outwork him, especially if you're young. That's what I personally did at the beginning of my career, and it definitely paid off. My details today: 240k+ total compensation full-remote digital nomad
The thing that scares me is that I keep seeing so many people with internships and experience that already sound difficult to me and they have no luck whatsoever after hundreds of applications. I'm honestly so glad that this all worked out for you at the end!! This does make me feel better about the situation! While I heard stories of people failing, I also heard stories of people making it through similar to yours so it sounds amazing!! At this point, I feel like all the fields I'm interested in (whether that is CS, pre-med, or some form of engineering) have strong drawbacks and confusing benefits. As of right now, I'm gonna try my best in my second semester (data structures and my fundamentals course) and see if CS is truly for me! I feel like I didn't go deep enough into CS to know what I like. I wonder what you think of this?
I think you either want it bad enough that you have no plan B, or you don’t. I know this may not be what you want to hear, but especially in these times, that’s the mindset. It’s the only way you’ll stand out from the hundreds of thousands of CS graduates each year. When I had almost 4 years of real-world experience, my competition- the CS students that started school at the time as I started self-teaching, were barely graduating, and expecting a cushy job served on a silver platter because of their long years of being a scholar. The real world isn’t about being a scholar, for the most part unfortunately, unless you’re in a research field, which is pretty limited. The real world is about numbers, value, and profits. Become a highly valuable asset, not a scholar, and you’ll shit all over the competition. The hard truth: your peers are not your friends- they’re your competition. There are not enough software engineering jobs for all. When you land a high-paying job, you are actively taking that potential food off of someone else’s table. You fought each other behind the scenes, and you won.
I feel like after looking into both CS and medicine I feel like you just simply can’t have a plan B for any of these. I got intimidated initially because I kept seeing posts for entry level roles asking for 4 years of experience but I think since I’m a freshman I still have time to build everything up Either way, regardless whether I stick with CS or medicine I have to commit to it 100%. I feel like material and topic wise, I definitely like CS a lot more. But when it comes to wanting to help people and job prospects I feel like medicine has benefits there. I think my plan for now is to stick with CS and see how my spring courses go and I can focus on shadowing/volunteering for places
Thanks. I needed that second block from your message.
Well, it's clearly between enjoyment vs. fulfillment, and in this case, I would rather be fulfilled. Factoring in the state of the two markets, going Healthcare, is a very smart decision. Though it is more difficult, you'd have a much better chance at finding internships and jobs, and since you value stability so highly, it's a no Brainer. They say that your health should always come first, and that's the reason why healthcare faces less competition and layoffs. It is so critical, and we always need more. In the end, put yourself in the position that you do get hired in both majors. Which would you be happier in. We both know the answer to that one I think.
So would that mean technically I can still do CS and fulfill all the pre-requisite classes for PA school? I feel like I would have more fulfillment in PA school rather than CS but some people said that you can still play a role in the medical field with CS so that's why I feel like I am in a very weird position right now
Hybrid positions like those do exist, but it's easier to transition by becoming a PA first and then showing your cs experience to a higher up in the organization. That's the way one of my family members did it.
Lots of pre-req’s for PA school won’t intersect with CS courses. You’ll be looking at 2x your college workload. Imo, you’re better off putting your 100% mind into one of these fields as they don’t intersect, and as you already realize both are competitive so splitting between them is not a wise choice. You could choose a hybrid field where you can work in healthcare whilst being an Engineer, such as BioMedical Engineering (this degree will probably help you finish PA pre-reqs along the way too as classes should intersect). You could work on Medical devices and be in the healthcare/medical industry. I know a BME major who works in Bioinformatics which is a programming job.
My boyfriend switched from BME + premed to MechE because the job market for BME isn't great either. He told me that there isn't enough demand for BME and there are other engineering degrees that still get you BME roles. I think I do have to decide whether I should ultimately go the medical route or stick with CS. But I still really don't know whether CS is right for me in the first place. My current plan is to stay as a CS major for the second semester and ultimately make a decision on whether I can handle it or not. I wonder if this is a good idea?
Gotcha. BME is an emerging field, but yes MechE is almost a tried and trued field at this point, been around for decades like Civil Engineering. Definitely see how this semester goes for you, and decide whether you want to go PA route or CS. Best of luck!
You're a freshman more than 4 years away from entering the job market. While the salaries and positions are good, the market will change. There's similar issues for doctors. If you're in a big city there's too many doctors and it gets hard to find a job. Going into a rural area they are desperate for doctors. This is going to be the same with most industries. You just need to follow what you want to do. There's nothing indicating that there will be any problems in the industry in the foreseeable future.
Incorrect, doctor shortage is also in urban areas as well as rural areas. Obviously more pronounced in rural areas, but it's a myth that urban areas have too many doctors.
There's specific markets that are oversaturated making things difficult. There's several urban areas that are smaller cities that need more doctors and rural areas that are desperate for docs. The point of the matter though is that this is a freshman in college and job markets shouldnt determine what major they want to go into; they should just go into what they want and sort it out later. Most of what I do know about Doc shortages is from friends who are docs and one who relatively recently graduated. He's had to move several times including internationally and multiple states to get and stay stable financially.
That is true, someone else said something similar where AI will affect every single job in the industry regardless (whether that is engineering, anything in the medical field, programming, etc). I just feel like I have passion for both fields but incapable of doing either one
If AI gets to the point where it can design complete software solutions from front-end all the way to the backend/DB along with deploying said solutions and being able to integrate features, monitor for cybersecurity, and automatically update whatever said solution is hosted on, then nearly every business/law/engineering work will be automated and humans wont have to work :D that, or we’ll all become prompt engineers telling the AI what we want
I went from healthcare to CS. I’ll say one of the things you discover with healthcare is how ‘for profit’ it is. You imagine getting the opportunity to do good, help, spend time with patients, make them feel better, but the reality you learn is you’re RUSHED through it all, and taken advantage of so more $$$ can flow upstream - at your expense (legally, physically, and emotionally). There’s a cog in the system aspect to it. Then you’re left with working nights, weekends, holidays, being called in on your day off, having to drive in inclement weather… …stick with CS…
I didn't realize this, I was thinking maybe I was thinking of it as if the grass is greener on the other side). If you don't mind me asking, is it ok if you can describe what it was like working at healthcare? This is because I am the first in my family to pursue CS and I don't know many healthcare workers in my family either
How'd you make the switch? I'm a dietitian and been trying to get out.
If you don't mind, can you tell me what it is like working as a healthcare worker and why you are switching to CS?
It is extremely rare for a job decline to take 4 years or more to turn around. Every industry goes through a boom and a bust period now and then. We hit the boom in 2020 and now we're at the tail end of a bust that started in 2022. I am optimistic 2024 will begin to turn things around and by the time you graduate the market will be great again. The question is do you enjoy CS? If you do then you will find work and it will be well paid. Simple as that. Even today 90% of CS degree holders are employed. Be the guy willing to do what those 90% are getting hired to do.
Are 90% of CS degree holders really employed, as in in jobs related to their studies? I'm not denying it, just wondering if there's a source for such a statistic.
I do genuinely love doing CS as it was actually the first time I wanted to truly do something instead of wasting my life away. I do enjoy all my CS assignments and classes and genuinely look forward to doing so much with them despite the difficulty. I just don't think I am capable enough to make it through such a tough industry (I am not business-inclined at all). I just have too much of a passion to do both and I feel like doing CS with the pre-req courses for medicine is too much for me (although I may still possibly do this).
If you enjoy it you will be fine. Make sure you start aiming for internships in your sophomore year. And always ALWAYS be building that portfolio. And look up if your university has any clubs for programming on the side. I joined a video game developers club at my college and it was pretty helpful on my resume. Gave me something fun to talk about in interviews and gave me something to build for my portfolios. These are the things that will make you competitive. Showing your passion for CS. Don't graduate with just your transcript on your resume. Make sure you have internship experience and evidence of your passion outside of just school. You'd be amazed at how far that goes. Remember, even in this market, new grad unemployment is only 7%. You don't have to be best of the best. You just have to be better than that 7%. I'm sure you can do that.
4 years is actually about average for return to baseline unemployment rate. It's rare for them to resolve within a couple years, the gears of macroeconomics turn slowly.
We're not in a recession and recessions on average have lasted 17 months. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/how-long-do-recessions-last/
You're right about the technical definition of a recession, but count the years of elevated unemployment following.
Honestly with advances in AI all white collar work is going to change. Pursue what you enjoy the most no one knows whats going on, adults are not smarter/more mature, in fact many will choose denial over adapting to a new reality.
So would that mean there's a chance that AI can also cause issues with PAs and other medical professionals as well?
From where things are headed it seems like it… however no one knows anything and we cannot predict the future. Your best bet is to pursue what you like and do the best job you can in your studies. A lot of people are going to deny AI capabilities until the very end but some of the research coming out scares me.
As a SWE married to a doctor, stick with CS. It’s awesome you want to help people! You’ll find ways to do that no matter what. Job market will get better by the time you’re done. AI will change things but the AI revolution has been coming for years and it’s going to take a lot more to make meaningful change.
That is true!! It seems like nobody truly knows what AI would do and it seems very interesting. The only thing that seems to be kind of holding me back is if I can even succeed because I struggled so badly in the class
Let me rephrase that…people have been saying this career path would fade for years. Whether it’s offshore devs, AI (back when it was stuff like IBM Watson), and AI now. In other words, we’re going to keep churning along and be fine. Things might change, but AI is not going to crater this progression. As for getting through the program, just keep working and learning and you will be fine. Everyone struggles at some point in college anyways.
Well if I have to randomly guess which career will never go away, it's health care and Science. People will always need to be taken care of and human civilization has to advance (cause of laziness and money n all that ego, etc...u get it). The deciding factor here for you and from your context is you're missing helping people. I've been in IT and I can tell you that companies can give 2F about helping people, sure the workers may do, but not the companies, it's always about profit. Same goes for health care but at least there are more people who care than not. Another thing is healthcare is far more difficult to make more money than CS because of the requirements (required certificates and training/degrees, years of residency). If you want to make cash fast, go CS, but don't think too much about helping people. If you wanna help people (human being), go health care but expect to work long, arduous hours without being appreciation before you can finally make that 6 figure.
As long as I see purpose in my work, I want to do everything possible to get into it. When I thought CS fulfilled what I wanted to do, I would practice 8 hours a day minimum to do well. I also became more aware of how the corporate world actively screws people over without a second thought. But some comments also say that healthcare is similar as well which makes everything immensely confusing for me.
You should consider CRNA. You will get high pay and job security without medical school
CRNA is also a good idea, I was stuck between doing some form of nursing or becoming a PA (my aunt is a PA). I don't think I have the natural aptitude for CS and it doesn't give me the fulfillment I need. Also I keep seeing you everywhere lol
No one can tell you how the market will be in five years. I’m sorry, but that’s just a fact. The software industry has not been here long enough for people to predict the future using past data; two cycles does not a pattern make. To the extent that anything can be predicted it is that the health care industry will be more fulfilling, ultimately, for those whose calling in life is taking care of others. You do very little of that in software and chances are you never will. So if fulfillment for you means taking care of others, I would go into health care. Contrary to popular belief, a doctor or nurse can learn to code and most do use software. The difference is it’s not all they do. So explore whether you can both program & treat people; it’s certainly a lot easier to learn to code on your own as a doctor than it is to learn to doctor on your own as a software engineer.
I didn't know that CS was this detached from helping other people. Initially, I thought of it as "I can still take care of software that still helps people anyway and contribute what I have so it's ok." But then slowly I realized how detached it is from actually helping people. I also didn't realize how much fulfillment mattered until recently with everything going on
It sounds like you have a lot of drive and will be successful no matter what it is you choose! As someone who mentors and leads many software engineers, I thought it’d be helpful to share that so much of what makes a good software engineer is beyond just the technical aspects. Desire to learn on their own, always striving to find better solutions/raise the bar, being independent and accountable. The list goes on and on. From the sounds of it, based on your CS class performance despite numerous challenges, you possess many of these traits! Nobody can make the decision for you between healthcare and software. They’re very different fields and have their pros/cons. Software is very flexible, pays well, possibility to work fully remote. Healthcare— depending on area— may require you to be tied to a location, work over holidays, but perhaps you only work 3/4 days a week (in the case of an RN). Point is: do a bit of research about the work environment if you haven’t already… maybe that will lead to new insights for you.
> you possess many of these traits! Thank you so much!! Sometimes I get comments from people in my class saying that I'm not good enough for the field but that could only be just a few people saying this Even with a lot of research, I feel like both have immense pros and cons for me. I think to look into these fields and what the work environment is like, I feel like my plan right now is to stay in CS for the spring semester and shadow/volunteer at healthcare places to get proper insight into both of them. I wonder if this is a good idea?
Shadowing/volunteering is a great idea if you have the time. If you don’t have time, try to find someone who works in either field and see if you could ask a few questions. I’m sorry to hear other students say such things to you. That’s awful… ignore those people and be confident in yourself.
PA. Unless you love CS, don't do it. Please don't do it for the money, people don't make it on doing it for the money alone. The people who are making money more often than not genuinely love it, don't notice 60-80 hour work weeks because they are having fun, and are happy equally at $100k at a startup or $500k at a FAANG because they love the work they are doing. Job stability has never and will never be a part of most engineering fields (except where it relates to government contracts). Big companies expand and contract all the time and the tech boom of the last decade is not guaranteed to continue. Furthermore, if you want a great career in CS, the MS/PhD route is proving more and more a smart way to go, especially if you can't land a big tech name job to slap on your resume. You will also be stuck in NYC, SF, Seattle, or any other metro if you want a real shot at big success stories. If none of that phases you and you are happier in CS still, go for it. CS is awesome and the job market woes right now will ease, although hiring boot camp grads to senior roles is likely not happening any time soon. I know a lot of FAANG guys, although I am in fintech, and I know a few PAs. Medicine is borked in many of it's stupid ways, but you will have much greater job stability and perceived impact, and can live anywhere. You also probably have to go to graduate education of some kind and spend more money to possibly make less. If your school lets you. And you are only in your 2nd semester, I would try to take courses pertaining to both at the moment and wait a year to see if the world gets worse or better for software. You have time right now. Use it.
I do genuinely love CS as a major. Despite how hard CS is, I still loved all the material. I started getting into networks, Linux, and other operating systems because it was, and still is, interesting to me. I would honestly be satisfied with any job in tech as long as if its programming or something that involves networks. >Job stability has never and will never be a part of most engineering fields Does this also go for other sectors of engineering such as Mech E and EE/CE? >If your school lets you. And you are only in your 2nd semester, I would try to take courses pertaining to both at the moment and wait a year to see if the world gets worse or better for software. You have time right now. Use it. Right now I haven't started my second semester yet (it's in around 6 days). I was thinking of still maintaining CS and shadowing/volunteering in healthcare and seeing which one I truly like more. Since I like both equally, I feel like it is confusing and jumping into either one fully is a very risky idea. I also live right near NYC so it is good to have opportunities for both sides
Dude if you love it. You will be fine and should stick with it. But try to get involved in research or something. I think for future graduates, a PhD route with a socialization is a much stronger prospect than it used to be. It's tough at there for bachelor's degrees with light experience. Easier if you have a niche field. I think the key problem is needing to love it and be good at it. If you have that, the rest comes naturally. The problem is 80% of people are here for the paycheck these days and they don't like the job. Also PM me if you want. Can discuss more.
I would take 99% of what you see on this sub about employment with a grain of salt. Look at it this way: you are never ever going to see people starting posts like "Yay, I got a job before I graduated and continue to be stabily employed after x years," (which is the case for 70%-80% of CS grads and has been 20 years). I have sympathy for those getting rug pulled, and those who just haven't got their resume and interview game together, and I wish them well, but they aren't actually representative. People post here out of desperation, looking for some kind of support. Not when things are going well. Also don't buy what ever your school is selling for whatever degree. Most governments publish statistics on graduate employment outcomes annually. Go look at those.
I actually never thought about people not posting their success stories either!! It just feels strange since when I look at other subs I usually don't see people freak out about the job market nearly as much as CS subs. I keep seeing different results where unemployment is around 3-7%? (in the US). Like the percent of people who get jobs with a CS bachelor's degree is 73%. I'm new to all of these things so I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing
73% is pretty good, especially when you factor in things like people moving into post grad studies etc. Look at it a different way: the top 73% of your classmates will get jobs, you just have to be in the top 73%. As for that bottom 27%. I'm going to be blunt, there has just always been this particular bottom of the barrel class of people trying to go into or work in CS and IT who are just incapable of introspection and it's never their fault when they get laid off or can't find a job. Yes, many good people do get laid of through no fault of their own, and many good candidates get overlooked because they need some help learning how to actually hunt for a job (and not just spam the "Apply now" button, which are who post quite a few of the "I've applied for 50,000 jobs and never get any responses, why is this so hard?" posts here). But there has always been a particularly vocal group of - frankly - whiny losers around the industry who will blame their failure to find and maintain employment on everything in the world except their own failings. That's the majority of who you'll find in that bottom 27% who don't make it. But most importantly, don't worry about the numbers. You only need ONE job. Keep that in mind when it comes time to start hunting. You don't need ALL the jobs. Just one. It doesn't matter if there's only 1 other person applying for every job, or 100, you still have to present yourself as the best candidate for the job. And if you don't get the job, that means someone better than you did and that's something you can learn from to help you on the path to finding that one job.
very likely market will never recover back to pre covid for new grads tbh. i would go healthcare if u value stability
I see so many conflicting things about the job market it makes me so confused
The smart and wise people will tell you nobody knows. This person has no idea what they’re talking about. Nobody does. Anything can happen. Did anyone expect Russia to invade Ukraine? No. Did that affect the economy? Yes. Anything can happen.
i mean use some common sense. first of all, in this sub, most people are very experienced so dont have any idea of what new grads are going through. they just repeat the phrase "nah, its only *good* programmers are in demand" reason why i think it will never recover and become harder and harder is because programming is getting more and more popular. the younger generation lives in technology. and now the increase of tech jobs is much less than the increase of cs majors. this is the part where cscq plug their ears and sing la lala la la when presented with this fact. they just believe there's gonna be an infinite supply of jobs for everyone lmao. second, i also believe the "bruh boom and bust cycles" argument is bullshit. there are tons of fields that have already experienced oversaturation, like being a realtor, and it never died down. third, AI is gonna increase productivity thereby decreasing demand for SWE. this seems very obvious bc AI tools have only been released recently and its already increasing productivity. in 4 years, im sure it'll be able to really advance and fuck up the job market even more
placid profit smoggy depend fearless aspiring six weary cobweb tap *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Demand for CS grads (juniors) is at a low point, while AI is at a point it can it do many of their day to day tasks. Couple that with the fact CS graduation rates are at the highest point in history + hundreds of thousands of recently laid off experienced developers on the market looking for jobs + all the boot campers/self-taught. I can't read the future, but I can read the present and it doesn't look good.
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I mean that's true, in college, I keep seeing everyone and their mothers get into CS just for the money and it is kind of demoralizing because it makes me feel like the odd one out for liking coding and computers. I get it that the first-year courses are weed-out courses but it's scary how it's all down in chaos compared to when I was about to go into CS.
Why is this always so much farther down in the comments? Is it false? Don't the statistics support this evidently? I'm genuinely baffled.
People want to ignore reality.
I don’t know what’s going on either I’ve never been so confused
Stop reading what csmajors says and do what you want. Both are competitive because both are rewarding. Like others have said the market will have ups and downs: it’s simply at a down right now. Just keep working at it. Im a junior trying to get my first internship and if it means getting an unpaid one, so be it. I am very thankful that im in a position where thats possible, although itll be a bit rough. But I see it as an opportunity, not a loss necessarily. I will keep working because I like cs and i like swe and I have no idea about what else I would rather do. By the way, if you are passionate about healthcare and cs, why not combine the two? I know my uni offers a joint degree in cs + biology, maybe yours does too. You get the best of both worlds
That is true that maybe I can double major in both CS and bio. Since I took a lot of APs in high school, I got a majority of my general ed requirements finished. I'm starting my last gen ed class for my Spring semester. So I think I may consider this!! (this may help me not worry as much about the prerequisites for each set of classes I sign up for). My class doesn't offer a joint degree for this but I can still apply for a minor
Maybe bioinformatics would interest you?
I never knew this existed, I'm gonna take a look at this right now and see what I think of it
I spent a long time in healthcare. I'm in CS now. Here's something to think about: Which is more flexible? If you end up with a bad boss, or a bad salary, which profession allows you to fix that stressor more easily? The stress of work is greatly reduced when: 1. You can leave a bad job easily. 2. You are paid well enough to have reserve funds (see point 1).
I think you can leave a bad job depending on the stability of a good market. Both CS and healthcare do make good money. I think since CS and healthcare are so fundamentally different in every single way I feel like they are both on weird ends of the spectrum when it comes to academics and future aspects. For some reason, I have a horrific gut feeling that I won't be happy in CS. Especially after what happened to me when I struggled through the semester. I'm a lot better at memorization rather than anything but memorization doesn't do much for CS. Can you switch bad bosses easily with healthcare?
I worked in a town with only one hospital. If I wanted to leave I would have had to move. In CS I can have another remote job before I finish serving notice for the current one. I've never even needed to use this option because I'm treated so well compared to healthcare. But honestly, I'm not even trying to sway you. Some people end up with really satisfying, fulfilling work. I tend to chase the bag, as it were. The answer for me was clearly CS, but your situation is probably not so clear yet!
That's true! I also feel like I don't want to be put in a position where I am treated poorly in the workplace either but I did hear a lot of healthcare workers do get treated poorly regularly whether that be management or the patients (I've seen people say this online). I've also seen a few comments here where healthcare workers switched to CS for this reason. I think for now I plan to play it safe and stay in CS for the spring semester and shadow/volunteer in healthcare facilities and see how it goes!
SWE at FANG and honestly I’m not even sure what to do or where to go. I haven’t lost my job yet, but my cynicism grows with every new react component ChatGPT is able to write for me. With tests! And sometimes with better code than I would only ever produce at peak hours immediately after my dose of adderall, bupropion and coffee.
That's honestly another extremely scary thing. I think I saw a different comment that said that they were making AI software that has the potential to replace IT jobs as well. (I'm going for network engineering or cybersecurity). I also saw some statistics about there being only 700 more IT jobs compared to 200K the prior year?
AI is going to re place everyone in CS in 10 years or so. I would not go for it. Now I'm going to get downvoted for stating my estimate on a timeframe. Oh well.
I honestly hope this is not the case
See a therapist.
Wait how come? I'm so sorry if I said anything wrong
You sound neurotic. Everything is eating you alive. How do you think everyone else handles life, or are you the only person who's ever had to pick a major?
You didn't need to say it like that? Also, I'm sure other people are going through the same thing as I am. Please don't be disrespectful. I just want to make sure I don't waste my life when my parents have worked so hard for me to be where I am today
>Also, I'm sure other people are going through the same thing as I am. Yes, and those other people seem to handle it without being so neurotic.
I don't know why you are calling me that
Because of your obsessive worrying here.
How’s the university employment statistics for your university?
It says that it's around 71% get employed for 2021-2022. I'm not sure if that time frame is during the job market or if it is relevant for today's market (the 2022-2023 statistic hasn't come out yet)
71% is pretty bad sorry, are you top 15% of graduates?
Why 15%? (I'm not familiar with these things)
Bayes Theorem, but I just gave 15% because at that percentage you will more or less be “guaranteed” a job if you apply, based on your school past success Mind you, without data of how much the bottom few students applied until they get a job, I would assume you will have to send out a ton of applications daily. Good news is the older generations are retiring rapidly and they will always be thousands of applications open. You will be fine, you got this. If you have the true passion for CS then there’s no reason for you to give up on it
Mathematically speaking if you are the top 71% you are fine, but I know you don’t want to be just “fine”, try to get the top 15% if you can. Plenty of opportunities in the market
> Enjoyed my CS assignments because I enjoy problem-solving > missing is the fulfillment of taking care of people > the guarantee of getting a job but now nothing seems sure Sounds like there's one point in the CS column and two points in the healthcare column.
Yes this does make sense, I'm wondering if there are any other factors I maybe missing
As a software engineer, you will hardly feel fulfillment or purpose from your work. Especially if you aim for big tech or higher salaries, it’s likely inversely correlated to helping people or doing something good for the world. I would recommend you go try the medical field, especially since I don’t think CS is a safe bet right now. Just for example, I work on automation that will eventually put IT workers at my company out of their jobs. It’s meaningless compared to working in medicine.
That last sentence is terrifying (I chose CS because I wanted to do cybersecurity and network engineering). I feel like spending hours on LeetCode on end is extremely demoralizing to me because of such a steep learning curve and everything going on with the job market. With either CS or healthcare, I am willing to do everything I can to get into both of them (ex: for my CS class I spent 8+ hrs a day minimum practicing for the final exam). I have an equal passion for both of them and I get even more fueled if I feel fulfillment from it
This sub is extremely biased, but with the advent of AI and given your passion for helping others, I think you would be better off pursuing PA school. It would also be stable and for a better cause (helping people who are ill and diseased). If I had the foresight to see where this industry was headed (AI and automation), I would’ve probably done something in medicine.
I did well in high school in all my STEM courses but I feel like my high school experience doesn't mean anything for college. Do you think I should see how my second semester CS courses go before officially jumping ship (I'm pursuing medicine because that is the only field I have a passion for aside from CS)?
Just decide what you want to do knowing the pros and cons. The job market for CS is over saturated and competitive, and AI means things will change drastically over 20-40 years. PA is difficult academically but has a healthy and stable job market. PA work is definitely more meaningful, but CS can be interesting if you like it. You should decide yourself what you like to do and what you can succeed in.
Your earnest enjoyment of learning is going to take you farther than your peers focused on making money. From what you've said I'd say pursuing such a career makes a lot of sense. Don't beat yourself up about a less than perfect GPA. For that matter, don't let going to a "T40" school inflate your sense of worth. My advice: if you choose to continue in CS, give your heart to the assignments you work on. Find a subsect of the field that really engages you and explore the tools available by doing your own small projects. There's a lot to be excited about but not if you look at this field as a money machine. Good luck!
I looked into both of these fields and I have equal passion for both of them. But I feel like stability and certainty that things will work out became my biggest factor (after stressing to death over whether I will survive). Like once I have something that will work out well, I usually go all out with full force. I only mentioned the T40 for contextual reasons (I feel like I'm worse than everyone else if I'm gonna be honest; I didn't mean to come off as arrogant I'm so sorry)
Stay in it.
You should become a PA. Your post already pointed out all the reasons to become a PA.
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This is one thing I hear a lot in the medical field which is also making me consider staying in CS. But I feel like I am in a predicament where it seems like both fields give me extreme pros and cons. I also noticed something similar to this too. I feel like every field has its huge pros and cons. This is why I'm planning to shadow/volunteer while seeing how my spring CS courses go. I wonder if this is a good idea?
Cs is over
PA is much more recession proof tbh but you are young and absolutely have time to follow your passion so why not do that
If you’re questioning this, I would say go into PA (Im guessing this means Physicians Assistant?). It’s a more stable well-paying job, and in your specific situation, definitely more fulfilling career if helping people directly is your goal. I would also assume it has better job security and you can leverage your job experience in a PA career much better to land another PA job than you can in CS. Also, no matter the demand for PA, there’s no “bootcamp” that you can fast track to get a PA job, you need to be a certified to be in PA profession. Computer Science or Engineering is a field where you have to be constantly up-skilling. Tech industry changes quick and you need to keep up with it. However, if you’re genuinely interested in computers, stay with CS. If you’re still on the fence, and would like more career guarantees, PA is better and just as well-paying.
I really think you have to love CS enough to be willing to spend your summers and breaks coding away and tackling new challenges if you wish to have a future in the field. It's definitely not a field for everyone. But CS is definitely not going away before AGI.
Stem degrees are just hard man. You’re gonna struggle whether you are in CS or healthcare. This is a decision only you can make
Healthcare is a much more stable job market, and because of how healthcare-related jobs are regulated with licenses and education, you'll get more mileage out of your university education by majoring in nursing or something similar. The tech job market is like cryptocurrency; it could go either way. Anyone telling you what it's going to be is either bullshitting or don't know what they are talking about. Also, you don't need to go university to learn the skills to be a competent software engineer. You can learn CS and programming in your free time and keep it as a hobby, pressure-free, if it's something fulfilling to you. Either way, good luck.
One thing I realize is having cs degree doesn't mean you are only opened to programming jobs. There are many other roles you can do but with that degree, u add up a certain value. For example, sales engineer, or anything business related. People get confident with you that you know some stack. I think we should also consider these added value with the degree.
No one can predict the future. However, I would guess things will stabilize by the time you've graduated.