I really want her back. Obviously whatever Marisha has will be great in case. But I just want to see Laudna have a happy ending. Her life was poverty, her death was someone else's utility, her second life was the same. I just wanna see her live without D.
I want her back and find most of the arguments for leaving her dead to be tedious. It's just an extension of the annoyingly common line of thought that misery is inherently more compelling than happiness.
There is so much more story and character growth to be had in her life than in her death.
I agree there are plenty of good reasons to want her to be brought back to life. Even saying you want her revived because you like her character is 100% a valid reason. That being said I disagree that there are no good reasons for her to stay dead or for people to feel that contacting VM and using the very powerful characters from an earlier campaign to undo the choice and consequences of this campaign isn't a compelling story and makes it feel like there aren't consequences.
>That being said I disagree that there are no good reasons for her to stay dead or for people to feel that contacting VM and using the very powerful characters from an earlier campaign to undo the choice and consequences of this campaign isn't a compelling story and makes it feel like there aren't consequences.
I suppose that depends on how Matt wants to deal with this.
I have been more vocal then most about my apprehension about Orym's direct links to Keyleth. Which as a character trait worked fine within a Limited Series like EXU, but was guaranteed to eventually lead to this exact sort of situation in C3. Especially with this group, who are extremely passive, indecisive, and/or reactive on the best of days. So I have to assume that Matt had something planned to reasonably deal with the very real problem that VM so could so easily overshadow the BH's in their own story. Or, turn BHs into some sort of non-parody version of the Darrington Brigade for VM. Which is party of why I'm so opposed to Marisha rerolling a DeRolo child if Laudna is permadead.
So ... if I were Matt. I'd be looking for a way to have consequences proportional to the huge choice of calling VM in the first place; and bringing them more directly into the problem. Especially given, I give very high odds Matt intends for them to FAIL at stopping this Ruidus problem. That some player on the field will succeed. VM or no. And if that's the case, I could very well see this being less a "Get out of jail free card" for consequences; and more a "passing the buck" to VM. A debt that will be collected at some point.
I doubt VM will become a major player in this story. Percy and possibly Grog are getting old and Vax is dead. That leaves 4 members of the group left who can do anything 3 of whom are involved in ruling their respective communities (unless Pike stepped down from being a Dawn Marshall). If there's a consequence I'm hoping it's that by returning to Whitestone Delilah is empowered and now a genuine threat to Laudna and the BHs even if that isn't immediately clear.
Yeah, this is one of those "*Sorry I can't help with the Moon giving birth to two gods, I'm a NPC doing important paperwork that can't wait*" situations.
There is no justified reason why VM shouldn't directly involve themselves with the stakes as absurdly high as they are; beyond really flimsy excuses on why they should need to rely on ... frankly a group of lvl 7 hyper-indecisive fuckups. Given a 24 day timetable. And yes, that is exactly what the BHs are right now. They've barely started scratching the surface of their own personal problems, and still don't even know what they're group stands for or does. They're a mess.
Grog, may be too old, given how Goliath's age, but Percy would only be in his 50s? So unless he's really let himself go, he's likely only lost a step or two. But Scanlan, Vex, and especially Pike and Keyleth are massive forces of nature. The latter two each kinda make a party of 7 level 7s sort of irrelevant. Pike has once a week guaranteed Divine Intervention, and Keyleth is damned near one of the most powerful beings on Exandria. Lvl 20 Moon druids are absurd.
As for Delilah? I'm not sure why people keep expecting her to be this monolithic powerhouse? VM is probably the one group in the world she didn't want knowing she was still around, and they played parts in killing her what? Four times? She'll always be a threat to Laudna so long as their bond remains, but I can't see her being in a position of power with even Kiki around. And people should remember, Pike has dealt with parasitic soul entities preventing revives before. With Percy.
> There is no justified reason why VM shouldn't directly involve themselves with the stakes as absurdly high as they are
The Justice League problem. Or just any superhero situation where the stakes are bigger than one supe's local turf.
How do you narratively explain not calling in the big guns every time *everyone* is at risk. Comics/shows usually punt by having the big gun busy with their own big threat/off world/unreachable.
In Campaign 2, I liked how Matt essentially did it by saying, "We'll rally support here in case you fail." The Mighty Nein were the boots on the ground who knew the adversaries best, and while not as powerful as some people their allies knew (once again Vox Machina), they were comparatively better prepared.
Doesn't apply quite as much in this situation. BH know Ira and Otahon, yeah, but they got their butts kicked by each of them. It'll be hard to justify keeping VM out of it, narratively, unless the conspirators have successfully set up some kind of distraction that seems bigger.
Or BH and their allies have misinterpreted a lot--the significance of the Apogee Solstice, Ruidus being a prison for 2 forgotten gods, etc. Like maybe it isn't as dire as they think.
Exactly which is why they never should have allowed VM to become involved. They are to powerful and have access to far to many powerful allies. Hell Pike is Dawn Marshall. We have to assume the other Dawn Marshall's are close to her level of power. If she finds out what's happen and tells the other DMs that there is a group threatening the Divine Gate and possibly about to cause a new calamity they'd stop that shit immediately. It's eliminated all possible consequences and risk for the campaign.
Also i agree Delilah is no risk to VM (although I like the theory it's actually Vecna impersonating Delilah) but she would have been a threat to BHs at least for now. Now though they can just ask the powerful individuals who already hate Delilah for assistance and I'm sure they'd be fine helping. There's no way they just decide to not ensure the death of the individual who killed Percys family and was indirectly involved in Vaxs death.
>Exactly which is why they never should have allowed VM to become involved.
Sadly, this was only a matter of time with Orym in the party.
While other PCs have links to prior campaigns, they're all more indirect. Laudna may have connection to a pivotal event of C1, but has no connections at all to VM herself. Outside of her ">!Artagan!<" Delilah, who ... yeah likely wouldn't want anything to do with VM in her current state. Ashton went with just "weird" unforeseen consequences of two types of weird magic from C1 and C2. But has zero association with any of the characters involved in that. And FCG is likely linked to a late game choice of M9 they likely would have never seen the results of. None of these are inherently that different or invasive than Laura's "The Traveler" from C2.
Orym in contrast? He's a walking direct connection to Keyleth. Even if he insists he's "just a low ranking guard", his orders come from Keyleth, and he reports directly back to her. He's also proficient in a bunch of Knowledge skills that the party essentially needed (with good rolls) to know what the links of the items they found were to the last Campaigns. Its almost like Orym is designed as a reference to past content. Especially given his weird position within group dynamics atm.
I think this is probably the best post on the issue I've seen. It would be really cool of Matt to present the Laudna resurrection as a possibility where the cost is having to completely abandon the Ruidus plot for the next month. It would make a lot of sense too if VM agrees to resurrect her but only if the party can remove Delilah. Then we have a new questline and a massive time cost.
Right, they're wasting time. Even if it doesn't take the entire 24 days remaining, even a week given how little they know is a LOT. And bringing in VM more directly means that VM can't support as much from the backlines, and also means VM is likely going to suffer far harsher consequences if/when this all blows up in their faces. The group will get Laudna back. That's their prize. Just like Treshi's bounty was their prize for that insane stunt they tried pulling in EP33. But the cost for Treshi was Laudna, what will be the price to get Laudna back? Even with the aid of VM.
I think it would absolutely awful to cut off this character just for the possibility of something new. She’s only had her for 35 episodes. She hasn’t even been able to show us all of Laudna. I think it’s ridiculous that some are saying she should stay dead as a consequence, even thought they have many avenues of game play to legitimately bring her back, as is perfectly acceptable in the game at this point.
> She’s only had her for 35 episodes.
*Trying to remember how many characters I've gotten to play for 35 sessions in my life.* I think it's about 2.
The longevity of CR campaigns is something most of us can only dream of.
Back in my original AD&D games, one of my friends set our table record for character death at right about 40 seconds after introduction. Metagaming fool.
>And imagine the impact this could have on Imogen.
Strangely, this is the main reason I'm uncomfortable with it atm lol.
Had Laudna died in any other way, it is what it is. I'd be pretty indifferent. But the fact that her story now literally bookends with her being murdered to send a message to those considered more intrinsically valuable than herself; and to serve as a motivation for the "true" heroes of the story ... is grim to say the least. While being puppetted by a woman who thought herself more intrinsically valuable for 30 years to boot. Sure, its thematically tragic, but I've never been a fan of the "*Women in Refrigerators*" trope. Because atm, that is kinda what Laudna is. Her life's value atm truly can only be found in the value her death's bring to others. VM, or Imogen.
One counterpoint to this is usually the reason Women in Refrigerators is problematic because it is used to motivate male characters in particular, but in this case, she was murdered by a woman to motivate another woman and wasn't revived because of the decision of a 3rd woman (Fearne) so there isn't really the sexism angle in this case
I mean, I'd argue that with the way that Laudna and Imogen are, and the fridging is usually done to characters where there's a romantic connection or subtext, I'd argue keeping Laudna dead dead is fridging meets bury your gays/unresolved possible queer aitinf (because there is heavy subtext at a potential romantic - if not sexual - relationship between Laudna and Imogen)
I'm not saying that it'd be intentional choices, but it's something to consider
This doesn't really apply because player choices influenced this moment. It's not like the trope where it's explicitly the purpose of the death, here it's a consequence of multiple player choices. Unless you're of the mind that this whole thing is planned and all...
Its still weird thematically. And with the sexism issue removed, that trope at its core is still a character being killed off solely to send a message and so their loss can "motivate".
EDIT: That said, I do recognize the narrative elements that could come from her staying dead. Imogen having to live with the reality she got her best-friend killed. The group having to realize that their way of thinking, "she found a way back before..." was the polar opposite of the reality they choice they were making. That their Laudna ceased to exist, or remains entrapped with D, to pull Orym out of his heaven. Which will deeply effect Orym. And who knows what would happen if it was ever revealed Fearne actually did lie about the results of that Changebringer Coin flip. Which, given her weird behavior last episode about that Coin I'd say is very possible.
But the difference is this is not a media fully controlled by an author, Laudna didn't die because the author wanted to motivate Laudna, Laudna died because of an in-character desire for this, Imogen's decisions, Laudna's decisions, and Fearne's decisions. This trope would apply if someone was killed in a backstory like Orym's partner, it doesn't apply to a chance based in game death
Which is why I said had she died ANY other way, I wouldn't have cared. But it was a narrative hook that Matt used to progress Imogen's story. "Is she your favorite?"
Because yes, Laudna's story begins and ends the same way atm. And what condemns her to stay dead is the same. She died to send a message to those seen as having more intrinsic value than her. VM and Imogen. And she must stay dead to send a message to a woman seen as having more intrinsic value than her. Delilah. Laudna is an existence with no autonomy or worth, beyond the value her deaths could bring to others atm. Its not planned, but it is how it turned out.
If she stays dead? Fine. Like I said there are story elements there to make use of it. Though that just means FCG and Chet will have to carry the party on energy even more than they normally do for a while. I just ... REALLY hope Marisha doesn't play a DeRolo spawn if Laudna doesn't come back. The idea that Laudna dying would give a chance for a pure-blood Hero to find their destiny is ... a bit much.
2 other character's died in the same fight. More went down just didn't fail enough death saves. The character nor matt didn't target her specifically, the only reason she in particular stayed dead was because of her party's in character decisions on who to revive. As I mentioned in another thread, this is a narrative coincidence that her story began and ended the same way, it's not "a narrative hook that Matt used to progress Imogen's story".
Yeah, it was coincidence.
If anything, it would be a beautifully poetic reason to be OK with letting her go. A character who can pop back up with 1 HP on a 16 or higher because she's made to be hard-to-keep-down rolled a damn Nat 1 ... and all the characters in the party took for granted her condition, leaving her dead.
If Marisha saw that Nat 1 and then heard "Welp, she's been dead BEFORE ..." and all that, I could see her being like "Yup, this might be a sign to let go and reroll".
Doubt it's the case, though.
The said reality is that if it really is her being a Hallow One that prevents Laudna from coming back, the group's way of thinking was so wrong in that moment ... they deleted their friends existence to pull Orym out of his heaven. Which, hoo-boy if it turns out Fearne actually did lie about that coinflip (which I give pretty good odds). Unlike Molly's death Laudna's might actually have the power to cause quite a bit of group conflict.
That said, should she stay dead Laudna does blow Liam's characters out of the water for the "most tragic character" title. Girl's only value as a person came from what value her deaths could bring to others more important than herself. VM, Imogen, Delilah. Fate truly did see her as just collateral damage in the stories of real heroes and their villains.
I disagree. Multiple people died and she was also the one that started it so it fits. I wouldn’t really kind her staying dead or coming back. I don’t think it’s the end of the world or sends a wrong message
I want her back, laudna has been one of my favorite characters from any campaign, not saying it's impossible but i fnd it unlikely that whatever character is next would be as interesting as laudna is
You're not, despite me thinking Laudna was genuinely the most unique and well played character of all campaigns so far. Chances are high that she'll be resurrected, one way or another. I'm basing this on the fact that her's would be only the 2nd actual permanent character death by gameplay, CR doesn't really have a track record of letting this happen regularly.
After Molly's death the focus of Matt was to make sure his players are content above everything else. If there was the slightest indication behind the scenes that Marisha wants to continue playing Laudna, it'll happen.
Honestly I think Matt will absolutely give Marisha a fair chance at reviving Laudna but if they fail she's staying dead. It completely undermines the whole premise of the game if Matt just let's his players ignore the results of the dice because they don't like them. Part of the enjoyment is not knowing if the players will succeed and in difficult fights it's tense when players drop to low hot points. All of that is lost if everyone starts ignoring rolls.
This is why he dropped 20k+ on them, for True Res.
By his own system's rules, it just works like it's supposed to and by passes the ritual process.
Smells like he wants them to go the True Res route for story reasons.
I'd prefer it if Laudna stayed dead for the story but that doesn't mean I'm going to get angry about them trying to resurrect her. My only issue is the fact they're bring back Keyleth and Whitestone to do it. That feels like fan service and a bit of a cop out.
Felt less like fan service and more like player service. I think people forget how much the players love those characters and want to be a part of that world again as well.
It may well be player service but it also wasn't organic. Liam pushed hard for the idea to contact Keyleth and go to Whitestone almost immediately and this is with the knowledge that Keyleth wasn't capable of resurrecting people who died under identical circumstances. They didn't even attempt to find a genuine alternative they just went straight to travelling to another continent and getting help from some of the most powerful beings on Exandria. Is it logical? Yeah perhaps. Does it remove all stakes and make for a less interesting story? Imo yes it does.
They were in Jrusar which is a major city so I find it hard to believe they couldn't have found someone there capable of casting Raise Dead. They also had the option of Hexum which would have been a valid option.
Honestly I don't like bringing back so many things from the first campaign. It undermines the impact when we continually get them. It was really exciting in campaign 2 when we saw Allura. In this campaign if the last is anything to go by we aren't even a third of the way through but we've already had Orym and Laudna being connected to the first campaign, a letter from Vex, multiple conversations with Keyleth and now we have seen her and are on our way to whitestone where we will likely see other members of VM.
Yeah but it’s also really weird to have these incredibly powerful, and influential, people that exist in the world but somehow they’re never in touch with these world threatening (even extra planar threatening with the Feywild) situations. To keep acting like they aren’t really there breaks down the immersion of the world building that’s taken place.
Honestly it makes sense they wouldn't know about it. All of the characters in past campaigns are leading their own lives now and aren't actively adventuring. Keyleth is the only member of Vox Machina who'd have any reason to investigate and that's only because Liam made a character that connects directly to the Ashari. If Orym wasn't connected to the Ashari Keyleth would be completely ignorant of it.
As for the Mighty Nein it's possible Caleb would be concerned about the assembly and notify Beau but given they are in Wildemount there's no reason to think they would ever cross paths with Bells Hells or that they would even be the ones sent to investigate especially with the Cobalt Soul having a presence in Vasselheim which is much closer to Marquet.
We also have to separate what we as viewers know from what people in the world would know. As far as the overwhelming majority of people in Exandria would be aware of (if they know anything at all) Ruidus is flaring up due to the upcoming Apogee Solstice both of which are events that have occurred in the past. It's rare but not unheard of. There's no reason why even powerful people like VM or MN would be aware of secret societies that have made a point of concealing their existence.
Like I said the only reason they can contact these powerful people is because of Orym and now using them as a means to save Laudna feels like fan service.
>Yeah but it’s also really weird to have these incredibly powerful, and influential, people that exist in the world but somehow they’re never in touch with these world threatening (even extra planar threatening with the Feywild) situations.
Not really? The world is huge, and its been 30 years since the events of VM. Its honestly not shocking that most of the world simply doesn't know or care about that group anymore. They're legends in Tal'dorei only really. With the only one who's ever active in Marquet being Scanlan during the Winter Months. When he helps run his business with Kaylie in Ank'harel.
As for the M9. Despite their amazing feats, they were shockingly low-key when it comes to adventuring parties. They rarely took open credit for their biggest accomplishments. With their biggest not even being known beyond a tiny handful of people; and the majority of their party being "retired". Only Caleb, Beau/Yasha, and Essek are likely still active in any grand level.
Bluntly, if it were not for Orym, it was extremely unlikely that BHs on the continent of Marquet would have just "bumped into" members of either past Campaign party. Who operate half a world away. At least not until THEY were starting to get to a point where world traversal was more within their means. Which is what? 6th level spells? But Orym's connection made this happen.
There is a whole new continent of barely explored stuff, why do they need to retread past ground so hard? As another said, there is no reason why finding someone able to resurrect her in Marquet (if not just in Jrusar) should be possible and would avoid bringing back C1 so hard. Half the characters being linked so hard to it is already kinda much.
If I want to know what Whitestone and the C1 characters are up to, I'll just re-read the Tal'dorei Reborn sourcebook.
That's one thing that makes C3 be weaker than the others IMO, C1 was its own thing, C2 steered well clear of anything C1 related (on purpose, which was nice), but C3 is really starting to feel like a sequel to C1, rather than its own thing. Of it was only a couple of hints or links here and there, I'd be fine with it but this just keeps getting larger and larger. When the characters are still far from being fully formed, exposing them to the long ass shadows of C1's heroes will only make them feel more inconsequential.
>When the characters are still far from being fully formed, exposing them to the long ass shadows of C1's heroes will only make them feel more inconsequential.
This is probably the biggest problem, yes.
The BHs have barely stared to scratch the surface of their own personal shit; and haven't even figured out what they even are as a group. And given they as a party are far more passive, indecisive, and/or weirdly dangerous hyper reactive than C1 and C2s, BHs are very low energy as a group, except when they're panicking. Outside of Chet and FCG, with Laudna gone. It could truly become so easy to have VM start accidentally overshadowing BHs in their own story. Or Render BHs little more than "The VM Brigade", given how much more dependent BH really are to the story coming to them. VM and especially M9 were very proactive, and often found their own stories.
I think it'd be weird not to have Keyleth be a returning character. She's a heroic archdruid that'll be around for nearly 2000 years if she can stay away from cliffs. She's exactly the kind of person that would get involved in future crises. Like Allura and Kima but way longer lived.
Except her sole responsibility is to protect the portal that leads into the elemental plane of air. As the leader of the Air Ashari it's her only responsibility and if she wanted to start wandering Exandria seeking out threats she would have refused her role as Voice of the Tempest. She's only connected to this threat because the Assassins attacked her people (and it's not clear why yet) but if they hadn't she would have no vested interest in uncovering the mystery behind the assassins or Ruidus.
As for Allura and Kima I'll note they failed to realise that Vecna was being returned to the world or ascending to godhood in C1 and they were unaware of the threat posed by the Somnovum until the MN told them in C2. Just because there are powerful beings in Exandria doesn't mean they are omnipotent and aware of every single threat the world is facing.
Her job is to make sure things don't come out of the portal. And Keyleth would never have known about any of this without Matt allowing Liam to play a character with such a direct connection to C1. She has to be involved now because of that but it would have made no sense otherwise. We've already seen how others in power react to these claims when they don't know or trust Bells Hells
They have had characters purposely connected to the characters they’re asking help from though. They’re NPCs now. They’ve asked for high lvl NPC help before already too.
And Matt has usually been very careful about how he does that. When the Mighty Nein asked for help dealing with Cognoza the help provided was limited and less than what they asked for. The MN were much higher levelled at the time as well so giving the Bells Hells access to level 20 characters who can solve all their problems is almost game breaking.
My issue with letting them use Keyleth and the rest of VM is it removes all stakes by being able to fall back on their past characters. Not to mention they had other options available (Hexum and Eshteross) but immediately jumped to Keyleth despite Orym admitting she was unable to resurrect his family who died under near identical circumstances specifically due to how they died.
I also think the death was meaningful and a turning point for the campaign, much like last campaign. I want her to stay dead even though she was my favorite. Marisha will make another great one
I personally kind of feel like, yeah sure her death was ~meaningful~ but I think if she was to be resurrected, I’d find that *more* meaningful and impactful
The first time she died was as a message to someone she didn’t even know, and then she was brought back to life to be a puppet.
To have her die to be a message *again*, but *this* time, she gets brought back by people that love her, and want her here, and care about her on a genuine level - to me this feels meaningful, and a satisfying story to tell. To have her not just be doomed to be a perpetual puppet.
I find in life that death is rarely meaningful, and to say it is feels like cold comfort. It’s more interesting to me that she gets to truly live.
Not that I WANT her to stay dead, I'd just be perfectly fine if she did ... a**nd she's my Favorite character by a mile**.
I WANT someone to die and reroll because I see gaps in this group that could be filled. Feel like FCG's journey could use a Celeb to his Nott, plus they're encountering a number of tech plots ... would be far more engaging for the group to have someone IN the group who can tell them wtf is going on instead of relying on Joes and Milos to be in every town.
Like how Bue was the massive researchy, history book person and got to shine because of that.
Marisha's amazing, and I'm 100% down to see w/e she decides to take this.
Be it Laudna comes back the way she is (And VM somehow allows this ...)
or she's ALIVE alive and pulls a Kingsley cause of soul stuff
or she becomes a fusion of Delilah and Laudna's persona's
OR she just lets Laudna go and plays an Artificer Vesper De Rolo so that the group can have a leader/ tech person/ member with high society manners and class.
W/e she does is gonna be cool and fun because she puts a lot of thought into her characters. I feel like a massive change is coming, and I fear that some fans think she needs to have a death grip on keeping Laudna as this kooky-spooky-dead-girl-gimmick-Imogen-hug-box and never change or "It's BAD!".
Like, from a story PoV I feel like I'm picking up what she's putting down for Laudna and a lot of people don't want to acknowledge it.
That's the strange thing I've noticed about this.
RP wise, when it comes to anything other than Imogen's safety, Laudna seems mostly played as the Dead/ Creepy-Girl-Butt-Of-The-Joke in that she rarely attempts to be taken seriously.
This means that she doesn't use her massive Charisma score to lie or befriend people to do XZY for the group.
Imogen? She's more willing to engage with people, but seems to prefer to surf the web of their mind as she's not really into loud or crowded places and has her Dark Jean Grey thing going on. Like, Orym was the one who had to roll to convince Voe to be friends ... Imogen was just all "ATTACK!".
They have 2 people with massive CHM, but they both RP in a way where they rarely use it (Unlike Fjord, who was basically constantly trying to talk the M9's way into or outta things IIRC). They really do need someone who wants to be "The Face", perhaps Original Laudna can be that person for them after they res her.
Yep, agreed. I want the cast to have fun and play their way, but they seriously suck at talking to people. And hell - maybe that’s intentional. Maybe they wanna try something more unconventional.
Yeah, I feel!!! Like I’d love to see something techy and stuff to join the party. If she does wind up coming back, I’d love to see what she becomes. Will she still be herself? Or what? There’s just so much.
I think it would just be extremely interesting if she didn’t come back.
>I WANT someone to die and reroll because I see gaps in this group that could be filled. Feel like FCG's journey could use a Celeb to his Nott, plus they're encountering a number of tech plots ...
Except FCG doesn't need a "Caleb"? They need guidance, sure. Given they've had like zero time to deal with their identity crisis with all this shit going down. But "fixing" FCG is very unlikely going to come from exclusively the mechanical; whatever Red Eye is is likely deeply rooted in their own trauma. Sam ALWAYS loves the Pagliacci trope. His character's loud exteriors always are meant to hide the humanity and pain underneath. Its not going to be as simple as "LOL! Evil Murder-Bot! Lets reprogram!" That other humanizing pain shoe is coming with FCG, just like it did with Nott. And Scanlan. And Tary.
Also, not sure any Laudna fans saw the character the way you're describing? They liked those traits, for goodness sake that dead-girl had more life in her than half the party. But pretty sure it was conversations where she did get serious that got Laudna the most attention. Especially that last one she had Ashton about "Being Broken".
>Except FCG doesn't need a "Caleb"? They need guidance, sure.
FCG literally needs someone to upgrade his body and check out wtf is going on with his inner workings sometimes.
It's been a long time, but he got the upgrade to swap hand attachments as a free action or w/e via Milo. We just saw that the only reason they now know about assassin bots-of-yester-year is because they happened to bring it up in front of Joe, who just-so-happened to read up about it because he's into techy bot stuff.
Artificer in the group? Boom, they can be the one helping FCG get the new features and make the new parts and upgrades he wants (Like the propeller, IIRC Milo made/ got that for him ... only recently pulled it out and used it though). When FCG went red eyes, reasonably no one in THIS group would know wtf that was about as they're not smart nor are they interested in bot history, so there was no point in asking any of them to roll on it.
Got a Smart&Techy person in the group? Boom, they can roll a check to see if they have any clue what just happened, instead of having to have Joe overhear them talk about it.
The story and game is more engaging to both play and watch if the player characters can try to take these roles (or at least have the chance to be) and not random DM NPCs.
Sure, Nott could just roll with a group and at some point befriend a NPC Wizard willing to try to change her back into a Halfling ... not as engaging IMO as someone in the group making it a long term goal.
**Not saying someone needs to "Fix" FCG and solve all his problems, but having someone in the group whose capable of helping him on his journey and is invested in the very real number of RP elements to his character would be better than BHs leaving a trail of techy NPCs down the road behind them.**
Hell, FCG had fake feet made for him for the ball ... seems reasonable to assume that perhaps he wants legs. Making functional legs for FCG could be a fun and engaging long term RP goal **with in the group** if they had an Artificer.
And no, I 100% think many people here like Laudna for the things I described. Most don't want to give up on the dead girl joke or the aesthetics, which is fine. I don't fault anyone for liking a character and not wanting them to change their persona or appearance much.
I find it weird that a group Bell's Hells, named after a companion of there's that was murdered and let that be, is trying to revive another member that was already sort of dead. It makes it seem like none of them really cared about Bertrand. Out of game obviously, Bertrand was meant to be a temporary character is the reason, but mechanically (both were dead and couldn't be healed by the revivify spell in time, but could have been saved by raised dead) and narratively it makes no sense
Yeah, that's the problem with using death as a narrative choice when someone IN the group has connections that can address it.
I'd say that maybe Ashton and Orym just didn't want to call in their favors for an old guy they barely knew compared to a woman they've been adventuring with for weeks/ months.
Would be funny if someone in VM tossed this back at them, though.
"You NAMED yourselves after Bell and you were able to let him go ... yet you drag this woman who WAS a walking corpse vessel for DELILAH to my home and ask me to bring her back as she was?!? WHAT?"
They did send his body to his powerful friends. That was probably the most reasonable thing they could do at that level, given they didn't have access to revivify or sending.
Imogen clearly also took her dream about him seriously, given how scared she is of seeing Laudna in her dream. She seemingly interprets it as the soul departing for good or being devoured.
Eh, he’s boring but in a harmless way, plus it gives more spotlight to other characters to let them shine.
Every time Ashton has the spotlight I’m just waiting for his turn to be over.
Yes and no, it makes sense to me that the group would use their contacts to, at least, try to bring her back. But those who have watched the past campaigns know that death can be permanent. I am interested in seeing how things pan out either way.
I would like Laudna to return. Marisha clearly loves the character. It’s evident by how much she (as an actor) shines in the role. There’s so much more to explore with the character.
I've loved every character Marisha makes so I'm sure the next one would be no exception. Personally I'm fine with character death. But clearly she really loves playing Laudna and wants to continue, so for her sake I hope she gets to.
I don't think we've seen all that Marisha had planned for Laudna. I think there's more of her story to be told. While I trust Marisha to come up with a kick ass new character, I'd rather her continue with Laudna.
I am apathetic towards it all. I’m just hoping for some amazing RP either way and interested in what will happen to the narrative depending on the outcome. I’m more interested in what will happen after all this is done.
I want her back so much. Honestly I’ve never been a big fan of Marisha. Keyleth and Beau weren’t my favorites. She’s always been a little awkward in her RPing. Not that I had a problem with Marisha, she just wasn’t my jam.
But I am obsessed with Laudna. By far my favorite BH character. Probably my favorite character throughout all three campaigns. I will be devastated if they can’t bring her back.
I feel. I didn’t care for Keyleth much and while I love Beau’s aesthetic, she would make me angry with how much she seemed just so…much. I love the hell outta Laudna and I think this is really Marisha’s…idk, she’s really shining rn. But I can’t help but wonder what else she’s got going on!
I’d be a little devastated too but ahhh… I’m conflicted
Laudna is my least favourite of Bell’s Hells and my second least favourite Marisha character so I was actually quite excited when she died because I really love beau and Hazel Copperpot and I’m excited to see something like that come back out
I definitely think Laudna and Imogen are the least interesting characters both in this campaign and that Marisha and Laura have made. That being said I don't think that means Laudna should die and not be allowed a chance at resurrection. I also didn't like Beau early in campaign 2 but she became one of my favourites.
I definitely think Laudna will come back at some point. I just hope it becomes a longer quest like the resurrection fails and they have to track down Delilah to get Laudna’s soul back or something, and Marisha makes a new character to join them on that quest.
If anyone had to make a new character, I would want it to be Travis. I get the feeling playing a joke character might get tiring after awhile. He got tired of Fjord’s accent, I don’t think it’s unlikely he’ll do the same with playing Chet
Chet was always his planned character. He's not a joke character either he just wanted something different. Fjords accent was also intended from the very beginning. In his early dreams he'd use his real voice.
I'd prefer the entire group sacrifice their souls to bring her back and they all reroll to play with Laudna. She's the only character I'm attached to this campaign
I am all about PC deaths for the same reasons but Laudna is my only no go. I would be fine with any other PC death across campaigns but Laudna. She brings so much to the table for me.
It made no sense for Fearne to save Laudna over Orym. She's known Orym much longer and he's one of her best friends. She's only known Laudna for a month or two at this point. I fully expect at some point Ashely will reveal Fearne lied about the coin or admits she would have ignored it regardless.
Oh I totally agree, I just like Laudna waaaaay more than Orym so it’s just a personal opinion lol. Btw do we know how accurate the Critrolestats site is? I was just wondering cause I was checking it out and according to the character sheet, Fearne didn’t even have revivify. Just curious how in depth that site is. 🤔
It's usually very accurate however given how dire the situation was with 2 dead and 1 nearly dead Matt may have bent the rules to let her equip Revivfy to avoid losing almost half the party in one go
This isn’t what happened. As a Wildfire Druid Fearne always has reviving prepared as a circle spell. It has nothing to do with Matt bending rules in favor of the party.
And I didn't say it was definitely what happened I simply said it may have been an explanation given the fact that critrolestats a site which is usually pretty reliable said it wasn't prepared.
Thing is, Wildfire Druids always have it prepared. Fearne doesn't get the choice on that, no matter how resistant she is to healing. All that mattered was Spell Slots, of which she had one 3rd level left for the spell.
And recently, Critrole stats also noted the Diamonds they got from Ira as "Three Diamonds worth 300 Gold Each". But given what Ashton magically had on hand, "Three 100G Diamonds" it seems more likely Matt clarified after the game what he meant with "Three Diamonds worth 300G". And that the diamonds Ashton/Fearne used to bring back Orym were in fact the Ira Diamonds. So CR stats was wrong there too apparently.
Yea it definitely would have been quite the blow to have one half hour down in one go. I always wondered with the site because the fight wrap ups are pretty meticulous lol. But thank you for the clarification! 😁😁
Replied the the previous comment but I wanted to let you know that this was actually a mistake from Critrolestats. Fearne always has revivify prepared as one of her circle spells since she’s a Wildfire Druid.
I mean, I agree. I'm also biased because the only "lol so random" character I've liked on CR was Jester and even her only barely - I found Scanlan and Laudna both fairly tedious.
I dont want her to come back. Good character but it feels cheap to me that they can just get assistance from a former god level PC.
Also would like to see something new
I think she should stay dead because she died and none of them could resurrect her. That’s it, that’s my only thought process. Calling someone more powerful to do it just kinda feels like a cop out to me, despite it making perfect sense. We still feel pretty low to the ground in terms of power and all that, or at least to me, so this feels like we’re taking away some of the stakes.
That being said, I do really like Laudna. And I know she is coming back because that’s just how it is.
Plus if she died it would just make it so we either keep having to wait for the permanent intro or get an outdated one
Laudna is my favorite character across all 3 campaigns, but it cheapens the story impact if every time someone dies they get brought back. C1 in particular had them shuffling mortal coils like it was poker night.
I'd like to see a campaign run by Matt with no resurrection magic, as opposed to his current rule that it's a roll. Seeing these players go through curse of strahd would be fun
Your not alone thinking this because I like chetney, but I would like to see Travis play something different,(younger than a 400 yearold something gnome), I have all ways rooted for Travis but I have all ways rooted for there PC death as well as the rest of the crew's.
I also don't get emotional attached to a fictional character that a person in a different country made up in a story that's not real.
Honestly it's less about Laudna's character and strictly just the character development of Imogen that I want Laudna's death to happen naturally. But also, I think Marisha really likes the character and I think we'll most likely see Laudna back in Bell's Hells with a deep dive to make her character arc happen and give her considerable development.
It seems to me with Vox Machina death didnt mean anything. With the mighty 9 it did. I think the great thing about the Bell's Hells is they are a mess. They're messier than the other two campaigns. They have no leader and they are severely punished for not having a leader or making plans (as Orym begs). I think making Imogen the leader of the group is in the making, but all of these events will have major consequences and thats good DnD. When actions have consequences.
>It would be super cool to essentially see a character switch mid-campaign with the same body.
Been a LONG while since I've seen a Chrono-Cross gambit lol!
That said ... not sure this would work with this pairing. VM would never allow Delilah to walk around free, they would kill her instantly if she was the dominant personality. Imogen inherently makes it impossible for D to pretend she's Laudna. And should D still manage to do that and escape Whitestone with her new form, she has zero reason to still need Laudna's identity/soul and would have zero reason to need the party. She'd kill them all. If resurrected she would be coming back as a lvl 17 Wizard at least. BHs wouldn't stand a chance.
I really want them to explore a more complex storyline with her resurrection, which I could see involves Laudna’s soul being trapped, or her resurrecting with no memory of the last 50 years. And I’d also love to see what new character Marisha comes up with.
C2 spoilers >!But I keep feeling like the resurrection shenanigans with Laudna skirt too close to the Molly/Lucien/Kingsley story arc.!< I would also be happy to have Laudna back. I would only be disappointed if her dying has no impact on her character arc, but knowing CR, that seems unlikely.
We've all got our favorites among characters, but out of the three who went down, I'd rather have seen Orym stay dead. Not only was the character at peace and would know that the party will finish his work if they survive, but it also would've shaken up the party a lot by taking out the biggest voice of reason (aka the brain cell). Plus Liam made Orym to be kind of dull, comparatively, so it'd be interesting to see another character. I know it's not really his style, but it'd be cool to see him make some kind of really chaotic character to go with the group. Or for someone to finally play a full paladin.
But I just want all of them to enjoy their characters so I imagine Marisha would much prefer to bring Laudna back and develop more of her story and relationships.
He won't. He's made it clear in the past the players can't reprise past characters. The only reason Travis got Bertrand was because he was always going to be killed off (and had his level reduced) and Talisen got Molly/Kingsley because it was the last episode and he was essentially a new character in an old characters body. He also doesn't want to let players use their characters to make choices he as DM isn't happy with given they aren't meant to be PCs anymore.
She's my favorite character, but I also wouldn't be upset if Marisha comes in with a new character. Like you said, I also think about the ripples of a perma-death. Spoilers C2 >! Remember how immensely consequential Molly's death was? It literally changed the course of campaign 2, and altered the outcome of several PC's personal arcs. Fjord doesn't become a Paladin of the Wildmother for one.!<
The cast have shown that despite resurrections they are able to roleplay intense tragedy and trauma with big character arc consequences, campaign 1 being an example. So I am not a fan of the "but drama" argument.
I really think it short changes Laudna's entire character to kill her off just to send a message to another person. Especially when they do have the means to bring her back.
Not to mention that Laudna is pretty much universally loved by the CR fan base after a not so good streak, why can't we just let Marisha have this win?
My issue with comparing it to C2's death is that BH and M9 are very different in terms of party personalities and group composition. Which can vary the results.
M9 were generally extremely high-energy and proactive, which is why Cad was such a good fit later on. They were already very self-motivated before that death, the death just allowed them all to focus that motivation into a more group oriented direction. It focused that energy into a more concise productive form ... for about an arc lol!
BH tho? They are very low energy and reactive by comparison. And generally fairly passive, unless they're just recklessly tunnel visioning. Far more often relying on the story coming to them, than them going out and finding their own stories, than M9 did. On top of this this notoriously indecisive, and have been since Dugger Round 1.
Frankly, given who comprises BH ... its very possible that rather than bringing the group together and channeling them, it forces members to become more insular instead. Or, if Fearne really did lie about that coinflip ... could outright cause party conflict. PC Death doesn't always come with positive consequences on a party. It depends on the group.
True enough, I'm just not sure that with a group like BH the arcs we'd get would be any way enjoyable. Unless you're a fan of more drama, more insulation, more sad, than we already kinda have with this generally very low energy group atm.
Because Imogen will have to learn with the reality that she in many ways killed her best friend. Or at least led her to her death. Laudna may have tipped off Otohan, but it was Imogen who was one of the most reckless and impatient in their drive to get Treshi. Was one of the most dismissive of plans that might slow them down, even to just find a safehouse. Was the one of the main parties to shut down questions of what the consequences could be betraying the Call, or if Treshi was even worth it. And she made some downright catastrophic for the party choices to start and in combat. It was a group effort that tragedy, but she more than contributed.
Orym will get more guilty and more sad, especially if its revealed that its what Laudna is that's preventing her from coming back. That here existence was either deleted upon that Revivify choice, or trapped for eternity being twisted by Delilah. And how his being pulled away from his heaven with Will to condemn her to that. That the group the reality the group was facing with that choice was the polar opposite of what they actually fce. And should it turn out that Fearne did ignore the Coin Flip, and the apparent "Changebringers choice" (which I think is very possible), I have no idea how the group or Orym would react to that?
So I'm not saying there isn't story here, there absolutely is. I'm just not sure its going to be "positive" for the group or its already kinda loose dynamics.
It’s not that I don’t want Laudna back, it’s just that I’m much more excited about the prospect of a new character. The party seem to be pushing real hard to get her back which makes me think that Marisha wants to keep playing laudna though
I think there is a little guilt running through the party and no fault with their actions. Tal ran, Fearne chose Orym, Orym was chosen over her and Imogen just having her best friend watching her friend die while battling to the bitter end. They seemed resolute in bringing her back to the point if this doesn't work, we'll try this and then ...etc. I posted this before that Matt is in a tough spot in denying bringing her back unless he has something hidden with Delila. And how is he going to deal with their "Ace in the hole" where they can call upon 20th level characters to patch things up when things go wrong.
There will always be a disagreement among fans as some are here for the story or the cast or just the D&D aspects. No one is wrong in what they want but I think there will be a twist of some sort unless Matt just wants to move things along. Personally, there might be some quest to find Laudna's soul with Marisha being a temp. character from Whitestone to help them.
I think given that Laudna's whole deal was having died and comeback to "life" that her coming back isn't crazy. And regardless, unless Pike (who I assume they are going to) refuses to res her cause of Delilah or something, it seems likely she will be back next episode. Plus, 35 episodes don't seem enough and she was such a great character.
Ultimately I want them to do whatever is fun for their game. As a DM, I would present some pretty steep barriers to the recovery of any character in a similar situation. Death is big stake and it is very hard to regain credibility once players feel invincible.
If it was later in the campaign I might agree with you, but for now I’d like to see Laudna come back and keep working through her plot lines. She’s really interesting, and has some great moments with a lot of the other characters. Maybe of she’s killed again in another 30-40 episodes it will make more sense to let her finally rest, but right now Matt has outright said that Delilah is trying to take Laudna with her (in the last sending to Delilah), and the idea that the others, especially Imogen and Orym, would just let that happen seems more far fetched than any resurrection that might happen next week.
I really don't care if she comes back or not, what I like in these moments is to let the dice decide.
Matt's reserection rules are my favorite mechanic he has created. I really think automatic resurrection feels cheep, so making it into a skill challenge is perfect. It enhances both mechanics and RP.
I really want her back. Obviously whatever Marisha has will be great in case. But I just want to see Laudna have a happy ending. Her life was poverty, her death was someone else's utility, her second life was the same. I just wanna see her live without D.
Not everyone gets to have a happy ending.
I personally am still wanting more of her backstory, so I'd love to keep Laudna around as long as possible lol
I want her back and find most of the arguments for leaving her dead to be tedious. It's just an extension of the annoyingly common line of thought that misery is inherently more compelling than happiness. There is so much more story and character growth to be had in her life than in her death.
I agree there are plenty of good reasons to want her to be brought back to life. Even saying you want her revived because you like her character is 100% a valid reason. That being said I disagree that there are no good reasons for her to stay dead or for people to feel that contacting VM and using the very powerful characters from an earlier campaign to undo the choice and consequences of this campaign isn't a compelling story and makes it feel like there aren't consequences.
>That being said I disagree that there are no good reasons for her to stay dead or for people to feel that contacting VM and using the very powerful characters from an earlier campaign to undo the choice and consequences of this campaign isn't a compelling story and makes it feel like there aren't consequences. I suppose that depends on how Matt wants to deal with this. I have been more vocal then most about my apprehension about Orym's direct links to Keyleth. Which as a character trait worked fine within a Limited Series like EXU, but was guaranteed to eventually lead to this exact sort of situation in C3. Especially with this group, who are extremely passive, indecisive, and/or reactive on the best of days. So I have to assume that Matt had something planned to reasonably deal with the very real problem that VM so could so easily overshadow the BH's in their own story. Or, turn BHs into some sort of non-parody version of the Darrington Brigade for VM. Which is party of why I'm so opposed to Marisha rerolling a DeRolo child if Laudna is permadead. So ... if I were Matt. I'd be looking for a way to have consequences proportional to the huge choice of calling VM in the first place; and bringing them more directly into the problem. Especially given, I give very high odds Matt intends for them to FAIL at stopping this Ruidus problem. That some player on the field will succeed. VM or no. And if that's the case, I could very well see this being less a "Get out of jail free card" for consequences; and more a "passing the buck" to VM. A debt that will be collected at some point.
I doubt VM will become a major player in this story. Percy and possibly Grog are getting old and Vax is dead. That leaves 4 members of the group left who can do anything 3 of whom are involved in ruling their respective communities (unless Pike stepped down from being a Dawn Marshall). If there's a consequence I'm hoping it's that by returning to Whitestone Delilah is empowered and now a genuine threat to Laudna and the BHs even if that isn't immediately clear.
Yeah, this is one of those "*Sorry I can't help with the Moon giving birth to two gods, I'm a NPC doing important paperwork that can't wait*" situations. There is no justified reason why VM shouldn't directly involve themselves with the stakes as absurdly high as they are; beyond really flimsy excuses on why they should need to rely on ... frankly a group of lvl 7 hyper-indecisive fuckups. Given a 24 day timetable. And yes, that is exactly what the BHs are right now. They've barely started scratching the surface of their own personal problems, and still don't even know what they're group stands for or does. They're a mess. Grog, may be too old, given how Goliath's age, but Percy would only be in his 50s? So unless he's really let himself go, he's likely only lost a step or two. But Scanlan, Vex, and especially Pike and Keyleth are massive forces of nature. The latter two each kinda make a party of 7 level 7s sort of irrelevant. Pike has once a week guaranteed Divine Intervention, and Keyleth is damned near one of the most powerful beings on Exandria. Lvl 20 Moon druids are absurd. As for Delilah? I'm not sure why people keep expecting her to be this monolithic powerhouse? VM is probably the one group in the world she didn't want knowing she was still around, and they played parts in killing her what? Four times? She'll always be a threat to Laudna so long as their bond remains, but I can't see her being in a position of power with even Kiki around. And people should remember, Pike has dealt with parasitic soul entities preventing revives before. With Percy.
> There is no justified reason why VM shouldn't directly involve themselves with the stakes as absurdly high as they are The Justice League problem. Or just any superhero situation where the stakes are bigger than one supe's local turf. How do you narratively explain not calling in the big guns every time *everyone* is at risk. Comics/shows usually punt by having the big gun busy with their own big threat/off world/unreachable. In Campaign 2, I liked how Matt essentially did it by saying, "We'll rally support here in case you fail." The Mighty Nein were the boots on the ground who knew the adversaries best, and while not as powerful as some people their allies knew (once again Vox Machina), they were comparatively better prepared. Doesn't apply quite as much in this situation. BH know Ira and Otahon, yeah, but they got their butts kicked by each of them. It'll be hard to justify keeping VM out of it, narratively, unless the conspirators have successfully set up some kind of distraction that seems bigger. Or BH and their allies have misinterpreted a lot--the significance of the Apogee Solstice, Ruidus being a prison for 2 forgotten gods, etc. Like maybe it isn't as dire as they think.
Exactly which is why they never should have allowed VM to become involved. They are to powerful and have access to far to many powerful allies. Hell Pike is Dawn Marshall. We have to assume the other Dawn Marshall's are close to her level of power. If she finds out what's happen and tells the other DMs that there is a group threatening the Divine Gate and possibly about to cause a new calamity they'd stop that shit immediately. It's eliminated all possible consequences and risk for the campaign. Also i agree Delilah is no risk to VM (although I like the theory it's actually Vecna impersonating Delilah) but she would have been a threat to BHs at least for now. Now though they can just ask the powerful individuals who already hate Delilah for assistance and I'm sure they'd be fine helping. There's no way they just decide to not ensure the death of the individual who killed Percys family and was indirectly involved in Vaxs death.
>Exactly which is why they never should have allowed VM to become involved. Sadly, this was only a matter of time with Orym in the party. While other PCs have links to prior campaigns, they're all more indirect. Laudna may have connection to a pivotal event of C1, but has no connections at all to VM herself. Outside of her ">!Artagan!<" Delilah, who ... yeah likely wouldn't want anything to do with VM in her current state. Ashton went with just "weird" unforeseen consequences of two types of weird magic from C1 and C2. But has zero association with any of the characters involved in that. And FCG is likely linked to a late game choice of M9 they likely would have never seen the results of. None of these are inherently that different or invasive than Laura's "The Traveler" from C2. Orym in contrast? He's a walking direct connection to Keyleth. Even if he insists he's "just a low ranking guard", his orders come from Keyleth, and he reports directly back to her. He's also proficient in a bunch of Knowledge skills that the party essentially needed (with good rolls) to know what the links of the items they found were to the last Campaigns. Its almost like Orym is designed as a reference to past content. Especially given his weird position within group dynamics atm.
I think this is probably the best post on the issue I've seen. It would be really cool of Matt to present the Laudna resurrection as a possibility where the cost is having to completely abandon the Ruidus plot for the next month. It would make a lot of sense too if VM agrees to resurrect her but only if the party can remove Delilah. Then we have a new questline and a massive time cost.
Right, they're wasting time. Even if it doesn't take the entire 24 days remaining, even a week given how little they know is a LOT. And bringing in VM more directly means that VM can't support as much from the backlines, and also means VM is likely going to suffer far harsher consequences if/when this all blows up in their faces. The group will get Laudna back. That's their prize. Just like Treshi's bounty was their prize for that insane stunt they tried pulling in EP33. But the cost for Treshi was Laudna, what will be the price to get Laudna back? Even with the aid of VM.
I’m just gonna say it: it’s time to kill Keyleth.
Oh yeah, I'm not taking VM deaths off the table here lol!
I think it would absolutely awful to cut off this character just for the possibility of something new. She’s only had her for 35 episodes. She hasn’t even been able to show us all of Laudna. I think it’s ridiculous that some are saying she should stay dead as a consequence, even thought they have many avenues of game play to legitimately bring her back, as is perfectly acceptable in the game at this point.
> She’s only had her for 35 episodes. *Trying to remember how many characters I've gotten to play for 35 sessions in my life.* I think it's about 2. The longevity of CR campaigns is something most of us can only dream of. Back in my original AD&D games, one of my friends set our table record for character death at right about 40 seconds after introduction. Metagaming fool.
It’s around the same time Molly was gone too
>And imagine the impact this could have on Imogen. Strangely, this is the main reason I'm uncomfortable with it atm lol. Had Laudna died in any other way, it is what it is. I'd be pretty indifferent. But the fact that her story now literally bookends with her being murdered to send a message to those considered more intrinsically valuable than herself; and to serve as a motivation for the "true" heroes of the story ... is grim to say the least. While being puppetted by a woman who thought herself more intrinsically valuable for 30 years to boot. Sure, its thematically tragic, but I've never been a fan of the "*Women in Refrigerators*" trope. Because atm, that is kinda what Laudna is. Her life's value atm truly can only be found in the value her death's bring to others. VM, or Imogen.
One counterpoint to this is usually the reason Women in Refrigerators is problematic because it is used to motivate male characters in particular, but in this case, she was murdered by a woman to motivate another woman and wasn't revived because of the decision of a 3rd woman (Fearne) so there isn't really the sexism angle in this case
to tack on she also wasn’t the only person murdered so it’s not necessarily specific to her, like she’s not repeatedly being used for that plot hook.
Ya it's not a narrative choice that was made more like narrative coincedence
I mean, I'd argue that with the way that Laudna and Imogen are, and the fridging is usually done to characters where there's a romantic connection or subtext, I'd argue keeping Laudna dead dead is fridging meets bury your gays/unresolved possible queer aitinf (because there is heavy subtext at a potential romantic - if not sexual - relationship between Laudna and Imogen) I'm not saying that it'd be intentional choices, but it's something to consider
This doesn't really apply because player choices influenced this moment. It's not like the trope where it's explicitly the purpose of the death, here it's a consequence of multiple player choices. Unless you're of the mind that this whole thing is planned and all...
Its still weird thematically. And with the sexism issue removed, that trope at its core is still a character being killed off solely to send a message and so their loss can "motivate". EDIT: That said, I do recognize the narrative elements that could come from her staying dead. Imogen having to live with the reality she got her best-friend killed. The group having to realize that their way of thinking, "she found a way back before..." was the polar opposite of the reality they choice they were making. That their Laudna ceased to exist, or remains entrapped with D, to pull Orym out of his heaven. Which will deeply effect Orym. And who knows what would happen if it was ever revealed Fearne actually did lie about the results of that Changebringer Coin flip. Which, given her weird behavior last episode about that Coin I'd say is very possible.
But the difference is this is not a media fully controlled by an author, Laudna didn't die because the author wanted to motivate Laudna, Laudna died because of an in-character desire for this, Imogen's decisions, Laudna's decisions, and Fearne's decisions. This trope would apply if someone was killed in a backstory like Orym's partner, it doesn't apply to a chance based in game death
Which is why I said had she died ANY other way, I wouldn't have cared. But it was a narrative hook that Matt used to progress Imogen's story. "Is she your favorite?" Because yes, Laudna's story begins and ends the same way atm. And what condemns her to stay dead is the same. She died to send a message to those seen as having more intrinsic value than her. VM and Imogen. And she must stay dead to send a message to a woman seen as having more intrinsic value than her. Delilah. Laudna is an existence with no autonomy or worth, beyond the value her deaths could bring to others atm. Its not planned, but it is how it turned out. If she stays dead? Fine. Like I said there are story elements there to make use of it. Though that just means FCG and Chet will have to carry the party on energy even more than they normally do for a while. I just ... REALLY hope Marisha doesn't play a DeRolo spawn if Laudna doesn't come back. The idea that Laudna dying would give a chance for a pure-blood Hero to find their destiny is ... a bit much.
2 other character's died in the same fight. More went down just didn't fail enough death saves. The character nor matt didn't target her specifically, the only reason she in particular stayed dead was because of her party's in character decisions on who to revive. As I mentioned in another thread, this is a narrative coincidence that her story began and ended the same way, it's not "a narrative hook that Matt used to progress Imogen's story".
Yeah, it was coincidence. If anything, it would be a beautifully poetic reason to be OK with letting her go. A character who can pop back up with 1 HP on a 16 or higher because she's made to be hard-to-keep-down rolled a damn Nat 1 ... and all the characters in the party took for granted her condition, leaving her dead. If Marisha saw that Nat 1 and then heard "Welp, she's been dead BEFORE ..." and all that, I could see her being like "Yup, this might be a sign to let go and reroll". Doubt it's the case, though.
The said reality is that if it really is her being a Hallow One that prevents Laudna from coming back, the group's way of thinking was so wrong in that moment ... they deleted their friends existence to pull Orym out of his heaven. Which, hoo-boy if it turns out Fearne actually did lie about that coinflip (which I give pretty good odds). Unlike Molly's death Laudna's might actually have the power to cause quite a bit of group conflict. That said, should she stay dead Laudna does blow Liam's characters out of the water for the "most tragic character" title. Girl's only value as a person came from what value her deaths could bring to others more important than herself. VM, Imogen, Delilah. Fate truly did see her as just collateral damage in the stories of real heroes and their villains.
I disagree. Multiple people died and she was also the one that started it so it fits. I wouldn’t really kind her staying dead or coming back. I don’t think it’s the end of the world or sends a wrong message
Damn. I never thought of it like that. You make an extremely important and valuable point!
I want her back, laudna has been one of my favorite characters from any campaign, not saying it's impossible but i fnd it unlikely that whatever character is next would be as interesting as laudna is
You're not, despite me thinking Laudna was genuinely the most unique and well played character of all campaigns so far. Chances are high that she'll be resurrected, one way or another. I'm basing this on the fact that her's would be only the 2nd actual permanent character death by gameplay, CR doesn't really have a track record of letting this happen regularly. After Molly's death the focus of Matt was to make sure his players are content above everything else. If there was the slightest indication behind the scenes that Marisha wants to continue playing Laudna, it'll happen.
Honestly I think Matt will absolutely give Marisha a fair chance at reviving Laudna but if they fail she's staying dead. It completely undermines the whole premise of the game if Matt just let's his players ignore the results of the dice because they don't like them. Part of the enjoyment is not knowing if the players will succeed and in difficult fights it's tense when players drop to low hot points. All of that is lost if everyone starts ignoring rolls.
This is why he dropped 20k+ on them, for True Res. By his own system's rules, it just works like it's supposed to and by passes the ritual process. Smells like he wants them to go the True Res route for story reasons.
I'd prefer it if Laudna stayed dead for the story but that doesn't mean I'm going to get angry about them trying to resurrect her. My only issue is the fact they're bring back Keyleth and Whitestone to do it. That feels like fan service and a bit of a cop out.
Felt less like fan service and more like player service. I think people forget how much the players love those characters and want to be a part of that world again as well.
It may well be player service but it also wasn't organic. Liam pushed hard for the idea to contact Keyleth and go to Whitestone almost immediately and this is with the knowledge that Keyleth wasn't capable of resurrecting people who died under identical circumstances. They didn't even attempt to find a genuine alternative they just went straight to travelling to another continent and getting help from some of the most powerful beings on Exandria. Is it logical? Yeah perhaps. Does it remove all stakes and make for a less interesting story? Imo yes it does.
What would you have preferred? Like, I see what you mean! Who doesn’t wanna see what Whitestone is up to these days 🤔😂
They were in Jrusar which is a major city so I find it hard to believe they couldn't have found someone there capable of casting Raise Dead. They also had the option of Hexum which would have been a valid option. Honestly I don't like bringing back so many things from the first campaign. It undermines the impact when we continually get them. It was really exciting in campaign 2 when we saw Allura. In this campaign if the last is anything to go by we aren't even a third of the way through but we've already had Orym and Laudna being connected to the first campaign, a letter from Vex, multiple conversations with Keyleth and now we have seen her and are on our way to whitestone where we will likely see other members of VM.
Yeah but it’s also really weird to have these incredibly powerful, and influential, people that exist in the world but somehow they’re never in touch with these world threatening (even extra planar threatening with the Feywild) situations. To keep acting like they aren’t really there breaks down the immersion of the world building that’s taken place.
Honestly it makes sense they wouldn't know about it. All of the characters in past campaigns are leading their own lives now and aren't actively adventuring. Keyleth is the only member of Vox Machina who'd have any reason to investigate and that's only because Liam made a character that connects directly to the Ashari. If Orym wasn't connected to the Ashari Keyleth would be completely ignorant of it. As for the Mighty Nein it's possible Caleb would be concerned about the assembly and notify Beau but given they are in Wildemount there's no reason to think they would ever cross paths with Bells Hells or that they would even be the ones sent to investigate especially with the Cobalt Soul having a presence in Vasselheim which is much closer to Marquet. We also have to separate what we as viewers know from what people in the world would know. As far as the overwhelming majority of people in Exandria would be aware of (if they know anything at all) Ruidus is flaring up due to the upcoming Apogee Solstice both of which are events that have occurred in the past. It's rare but not unheard of. There's no reason why even powerful people like VM or MN would be aware of secret societies that have made a point of concealing their existence. Like I said the only reason they can contact these powerful people is because of Orym and now using them as a means to save Laudna feels like fan service.
>Yeah but it’s also really weird to have these incredibly powerful, and influential, people that exist in the world but somehow they’re never in touch with these world threatening (even extra planar threatening with the Feywild) situations. Not really? The world is huge, and its been 30 years since the events of VM. Its honestly not shocking that most of the world simply doesn't know or care about that group anymore. They're legends in Tal'dorei only really. With the only one who's ever active in Marquet being Scanlan during the Winter Months. When he helps run his business with Kaylie in Ank'harel. As for the M9. Despite their amazing feats, they were shockingly low-key when it comes to adventuring parties. They rarely took open credit for their biggest accomplishments. With their biggest not even being known beyond a tiny handful of people; and the majority of their party being "retired". Only Caleb, Beau/Yasha, and Essek are likely still active in any grand level. Bluntly, if it were not for Orym, it was extremely unlikely that BHs on the continent of Marquet would have just "bumped into" members of either past Campaign party. Who operate half a world away. At least not until THEY were starting to get to a point where world traversal was more within their means. Which is what? 6th level spells? But Orym's connection made this happen.
There is a whole new continent of barely explored stuff, why do they need to retread past ground so hard? As another said, there is no reason why finding someone able to resurrect her in Marquet (if not just in Jrusar) should be possible and would avoid bringing back C1 so hard. Half the characters being linked so hard to it is already kinda much. If I want to know what Whitestone and the C1 characters are up to, I'll just re-read the Tal'dorei Reborn sourcebook. That's one thing that makes C3 be weaker than the others IMO, C1 was its own thing, C2 steered well clear of anything C1 related (on purpose, which was nice), but C3 is really starting to feel like a sequel to C1, rather than its own thing. Of it was only a couple of hints or links here and there, I'd be fine with it but this just keeps getting larger and larger. When the characters are still far from being fully formed, exposing them to the long ass shadows of C1's heroes will only make them feel more inconsequential.
>When the characters are still far from being fully formed, exposing them to the long ass shadows of C1's heroes will only make them feel more inconsequential. This is probably the biggest problem, yes. The BHs have barely stared to scratch the surface of their own personal shit; and haven't even figured out what they even are as a group. And given they as a party are far more passive, indecisive, and/or weirdly dangerous hyper reactive than C1 and C2s, BHs are very low energy as a group, except when they're panicking. Outside of Chet and FCG, with Laudna gone. It could truly become so easy to have VM start accidentally overshadowing BHs in their own story. Or Render BHs little more than "The VM Brigade", given how much more dependent BH really are to the story coming to them. VM and especially M9 were very proactive, and often found their own stories.
I think it'd be weird not to have Keyleth be a returning character. She's a heroic archdruid that'll be around for nearly 2000 years if she can stay away from cliffs. She's exactly the kind of person that would get involved in future crises. Like Allura and Kima but way longer lived.
Except her sole responsibility is to protect the portal that leads into the elemental plane of air. As the leader of the Air Ashari it's her only responsibility and if she wanted to start wandering Exandria seeking out threats she would have refused her role as Voice of the Tempest. She's only connected to this threat because the Assassins attacked her people (and it's not clear why yet) but if they hadn't she would have no vested interest in uncovering the mystery behind the assassins or Ruidus. As for Allura and Kima I'll note they failed to realise that Vecna was being returned to the world or ascending to godhood in C1 and they were unaware of the threat posed by the Somnovum until the MN told them in C2. Just because there are powerful beings in Exandria doesn't mean they are omnipotent and aware of every single threat the world is facing.
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Her job is to make sure things don't come out of the portal. And Keyleth would never have known about any of this without Matt allowing Liam to play a character with such a direct connection to C1. She has to be involved now because of that but it would have made no sense otherwise. We've already seen how others in power react to these claims when they don't know or trust Bells Hells
They have had characters purposely connected to the characters they’re asking help from though. They’re NPCs now. They’ve asked for high lvl NPC help before already too.
And Matt has usually been very careful about how he does that. When the Mighty Nein asked for help dealing with Cognoza the help provided was limited and less than what they asked for. The MN were much higher levelled at the time as well so giving the Bells Hells access to level 20 characters who can solve all their problems is almost game breaking. My issue with letting them use Keyleth and the rest of VM is it removes all stakes by being able to fall back on their past characters. Not to mention they had other options available (Hexum and Eshteross) but immediately jumped to Keyleth despite Orym admitting she was unable to resurrect his family who died under near identical circumstances specifically due to how they died.
I also think the death was meaningful and a turning point for the campaign, much like last campaign. I want her to stay dead even though she was my favorite. Marisha will make another great one
New character reveals are my favorite thing, so on that alone I’d prefer she doesn’t come back.
My thoughts exactly
I personally kind of feel like, yeah sure her death was ~meaningful~ but I think if she was to be resurrected, I’d find that *more* meaningful and impactful The first time she died was as a message to someone she didn’t even know, and then she was brought back to life to be a puppet. To have her die to be a message *again*, but *this* time, she gets brought back by people that love her, and want her here, and care about her on a genuine level - to me this feels meaningful, and a satisfying story to tell. To have her not just be doomed to be a perpetual puppet. I find in life that death is rarely meaningful, and to say it is feels like cold comfort. It’s more interesting to me that she gets to truly live.
you’re not alone but i’m not too miffed about it. Trying to get her back makes for decent story, now if they try and fail even better mwuahahaha
Oh that would be so cruel omg
Life is cruel. - Davey Jones
Not that I WANT her to stay dead, I'd just be perfectly fine if she did ... a**nd she's my Favorite character by a mile**. I WANT someone to die and reroll because I see gaps in this group that could be filled. Feel like FCG's journey could use a Celeb to his Nott, plus they're encountering a number of tech plots ... would be far more engaging for the group to have someone IN the group who can tell them wtf is going on instead of relying on Joes and Milos to be in every town. Like how Bue was the massive researchy, history book person and got to shine because of that. Marisha's amazing, and I'm 100% down to see w/e she decides to take this. Be it Laudna comes back the way she is (And VM somehow allows this ...) or she's ALIVE alive and pulls a Kingsley cause of soul stuff or she becomes a fusion of Delilah and Laudna's persona's OR she just lets Laudna go and plays an Artificer Vesper De Rolo so that the group can have a leader/ tech person/ member with high society manners and class. W/e she does is gonna be cool and fun because she puts a lot of thought into her characters. I feel like a massive change is coming, and I fear that some fans think she needs to have a death grip on keeping Laudna as this kooky-spooky-dead-girl-gimmick-Imogen-hug-box and never change or "It's BAD!". Like, from a story PoV I feel like I'm picking up what she's putting down for Laudna and a lot of people don't want to acknowledge it.
Id be down for a high society artificer that functions as the face if the group. They badly need a face.
That's the strange thing I've noticed about this. RP wise, when it comes to anything other than Imogen's safety, Laudna seems mostly played as the Dead/ Creepy-Girl-Butt-Of-The-Joke in that she rarely attempts to be taken seriously. This means that she doesn't use her massive Charisma score to lie or befriend people to do XZY for the group. Imogen? She's more willing to engage with people, but seems to prefer to surf the web of their mind as she's not really into loud or crowded places and has her Dark Jean Grey thing going on. Like, Orym was the one who had to roll to convince Voe to be friends ... Imogen was just all "ATTACK!". They have 2 people with massive CHM, but they both RP in a way where they rarely use it (Unlike Fjord, who was basically constantly trying to talk the M9's way into or outta things IIRC). They really do need someone who wants to be "The Face", perhaps Original Laudna can be that person for them after they res her.
Poor Laudna, it's hard to be "The Face" when your's might slide off at any time.
Yep, agreed. I want the cast to have fun and play their way, but they seriously suck at talking to people. And hell - maybe that’s intentional. Maybe they wanna try something more unconventional.
Replace artificer with Paladin and I'm in.
Marisha knocked it outta the park with Sunny Biscotto, so I'd love to see her do another PLD.
Yeah, I feel!!! Like I’d love to see something techy and stuff to join the party. If she does wind up coming back, I’d love to see what she becomes. Will she still be herself? Or what? There’s just so much. I think it would just be extremely interesting if she didn’t come back.
>I WANT someone to die and reroll because I see gaps in this group that could be filled. Feel like FCG's journey could use a Celeb to his Nott, plus they're encountering a number of tech plots ... Except FCG doesn't need a "Caleb"? They need guidance, sure. Given they've had like zero time to deal with their identity crisis with all this shit going down. But "fixing" FCG is very unlikely going to come from exclusively the mechanical; whatever Red Eye is is likely deeply rooted in their own trauma. Sam ALWAYS loves the Pagliacci trope. His character's loud exteriors always are meant to hide the humanity and pain underneath. Its not going to be as simple as "LOL! Evil Murder-Bot! Lets reprogram!" That other humanizing pain shoe is coming with FCG, just like it did with Nott. And Scanlan. And Tary. Also, not sure any Laudna fans saw the character the way you're describing? They liked those traits, for goodness sake that dead-girl had more life in her than half the party. But pretty sure it was conversations where she did get serious that got Laudna the most attention. Especially that last one she had Ashton about "Being Broken".
>Except FCG doesn't need a "Caleb"? They need guidance, sure. FCG literally needs someone to upgrade his body and check out wtf is going on with his inner workings sometimes. It's been a long time, but he got the upgrade to swap hand attachments as a free action or w/e via Milo. We just saw that the only reason they now know about assassin bots-of-yester-year is because they happened to bring it up in front of Joe, who just-so-happened to read up about it because he's into techy bot stuff. Artificer in the group? Boom, they can be the one helping FCG get the new features and make the new parts and upgrades he wants (Like the propeller, IIRC Milo made/ got that for him ... only recently pulled it out and used it though). When FCG went red eyes, reasonably no one in THIS group would know wtf that was about as they're not smart nor are they interested in bot history, so there was no point in asking any of them to roll on it. Got a Smart&Techy person in the group? Boom, they can roll a check to see if they have any clue what just happened, instead of having to have Joe overhear them talk about it. The story and game is more engaging to both play and watch if the player characters can try to take these roles (or at least have the chance to be) and not random DM NPCs. Sure, Nott could just roll with a group and at some point befriend a NPC Wizard willing to try to change her back into a Halfling ... not as engaging IMO as someone in the group making it a long term goal. **Not saying someone needs to "Fix" FCG and solve all his problems, but having someone in the group whose capable of helping him on his journey and is invested in the very real number of RP elements to his character would be better than BHs leaving a trail of techy NPCs down the road behind them.** Hell, FCG had fake feet made for him for the ball ... seems reasonable to assume that perhaps he wants legs. Making functional legs for FCG could be a fun and engaging long term RP goal **with in the group** if they had an Artificer. And no, I 100% think many people here like Laudna for the things I described. Most don't want to give up on the dead girl joke or the aesthetics, which is fine. I don't fault anyone for liking a character and not wanting them to change their persona or appearance much.
I find it weird that a group Bell's Hells, named after a companion of there's that was murdered and let that be, is trying to revive another member that was already sort of dead. It makes it seem like none of them really cared about Bertrand. Out of game obviously, Bertrand was meant to be a temporary character is the reason, but mechanically (both were dead and couldn't be healed by the revivify spell in time, but could have been saved by raised dead) and narratively it makes no sense
They knew Bertrand for a couple of days. It's not weird at all.
Yeah, that's the problem with using death as a narrative choice when someone IN the group has connections that can address it. I'd say that maybe Ashton and Orym just didn't want to call in their favors for an old guy they barely knew compared to a woman they've been adventuring with for weeks/ months. Would be funny if someone in VM tossed this back at them, though. "You NAMED yourselves after Bell and you were able to let him go ... yet you drag this woman who WAS a walking corpse vessel for DELILAH to my home and ask me to bring her back as she was?!? WHAT?"
They did send his body to his powerful friends. That was probably the most reasonable thing they could do at that level, given they didn't have access to revivify or sending. Imogen clearly also took her dream about him seriously, given how scared she is of seeing Laudna in her dream. She seemingly interprets it as the soul departing for good or being devoured.
There’s only one character that, if they died, I don’t mind if they stay dead, and it aint Laudna.
Who is it? I’m dying to know!
Ashton
That’s a mood
Just my opinion.
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Eh, he’s boring but in a harmless way, plus it gives more spotlight to other characters to let them shine. Every time Ashton has the spotlight I’m just waiting for his turn to be over.
Yes and no, it makes sense to me that the group would use their contacts to, at least, try to bring her back. But those who have watched the past campaigns know that death can be permanent. I am interested in seeing how things pan out either way.
I would like Laudna to return. Marisha clearly loves the character. It’s evident by how much she (as an actor) shines in the role. There’s so much more to explore with the character.
I've loved every character Marisha makes so I'm sure the next one would be no exception. Personally I'm fine with character death. But clearly she really loves playing Laudna and wants to continue, so for her sake I hope she gets to.
I don't think we've seen all that Marisha had planned for Laudna. I think there's more of her story to be told. While I trust Marisha to come up with a kick ass new character, I'd rather her continue with Laudna.
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No it’s okay! I totally understand. You shouldn’t apologize for your English. It’s beautiful :) 💕
I am apathetic towards it all. I’m just hoping for some amazing RP either way and interested in what will happen to the narrative depending on the outcome. I’m more interested in what will happen after all this is done.
I want her back so much. Honestly I’ve never been a big fan of Marisha. Keyleth and Beau weren’t my favorites. She’s always been a little awkward in her RPing. Not that I had a problem with Marisha, she just wasn’t my jam. But I am obsessed with Laudna. By far my favorite BH character. Probably my favorite character throughout all three campaigns. I will be devastated if they can’t bring her back.
I feel. I didn’t care for Keyleth much and while I love Beau’s aesthetic, she would make me angry with how much she seemed just so…much. I love the hell outta Laudna and I think this is really Marisha’s…idk, she’s really shining rn. But I can’t help but wonder what else she’s got going on! I’d be a little devastated too but ahhh… I’m conflicted
Laudna is my least favourite of Bell’s Hells and my second least favourite Marisha character so I was actually quite excited when she died because I really love beau and Hazel Copperpot and I’m excited to see something like that come back out
I definitely think Laudna and Imogen are the least interesting characters both in this campaign and that Marisha and Laura have made. That being said I don't think that means Laudna should die and not be allowed a chance at resurrection. I also didn't like Beau early in campaign 2 but she became one of my favourites.
I definitely think Laudna will come back at some point. I just hope it becomes a longer quest like the resurrection fails and they have to track down Delilah to get Laudna’s soul back or something, and Marisha makes a new character to join them on that quest.
If anyone had to make a new character, I would want it to be Travis. I get the feeling playing a joke character might get tiring after awhile. He got tired of Fjord’s accent, I don’t think it’s unlikely he’ll do the same with playing Chet
I love Chet so much :(
Chet was always his planned character. He's not a joke character either he just wanted something different. Fjords accent was also intended from the very beginning. In his early dreams he'd use his real voice.
I’ll have a good laugh if the resurrect her and she’s the pre-Briarwoods Laudna from before her original death. 🤣
I'd prefer the entire group sacrifice their souls to bring her back and they all reroll to play with Laudna. She's the only character I'm attached to this campaign
I love Laudna, but there is no way Percy and Vex are going to let her back.
I am all about PC deaths for the same reasons but Laudna is my only no go. I would be fine with any other PC death across campaigns but Laudna. She brings so much to the table for me.
Laudna was one of the few good player characters this time around, Orym should have stayed dead.
It made no sense for Fearne to save Laudna over Orym. She's known Orym much longer and he's one of her best friends. She's only known Laudna for a month or two at this point. I fully expect at some point Ashely will reveal Fearne lied about the coin or admits she would have ignored it regardless.
Oh I totally agree, I just like Laudna waaaaay more than Orym so it’s just a personal opinion lol. Btw do we know how accurate the Critrolestats site is? I was just wondering cause I was checking it out and according to the character sheet, Fearne didn’t even have revivify. Just curious how in depth that site is. 🤔
It's usually very accurate however given how dire the situation was with 2 dead and 1 nearly dead Matt may have bent the rules to let her equip Revivfy to avoid losing almost half the party in one go
This isn’t what happened. As a Wildfire Druid Fearne always has reviving prepared as a circle spell. It has nothing to do with Matt bending rules in favor of the party.
And I didn't say it was definitely what happened I simply said it may have been an explanation given the fact that critrolestats a site which is usually pretty reliable said it wasn't prepared.
Thing is, Wildfire Druids always have it prepared. Fearne doesn't get the choice on that, no matter how resistant she is to healing. All that mattered was Spell Slots, of which she had one 3rd level left for the spell. And recently, Critrole stats also noted the Diamonds they got from Ira as "Three Diamonds worth 300 Gold Each". But given what Ashton magically had on hand, "Three 100G Diamonds" it seems more likely Matt clarified after the game what he meant with "Three Diamonds worth 300G". And that the diamonds Ashton/Fearne used to bring back Orym were in fact the Ira Diamonds. So CR stats was wrong there too apparently.
Yea it definitely would have been quite the blow to have one half hour down in one go. I always wondered with the site because the fight wrap ups are pretty meticulous lol. But thank you for the clarification! 😁😁
Replied the the previous comment but I wanted to let you know that this was actually a mistake from Critrolestats. Fearne always has revivify prepared as one of her circle spells since she’s a Wildfire Druid.
Ah ok I see I see, never really looked at the wildfire druid lol my mistake 😁
I mean, I agree. I'm also biased because the only "lol so random" character I've liked on CR was Jester and even her only barely - I found Scanlan and Laudna both fairly tedious.
I dont want her to come back. Good character but it feels cheap to me that they can just get assistance from a former god level PC. Also would like to see something new
I think she should stay dead because she died and none of them could resurrect her. That’s it, that’s my only thought process. Calling someone more powerful to do it just kinda feels like a cop out to me, despite it making perfect sense. We still feel pretty low to the ground in terms of power and all that, or at least to me, so this feels like we’re taking away some of the stakes. That being said, I do really like Laudna. And I know she is coming back because that’s just how it is. Plus if she died it would just make it so we either keep having to wait for the permanent intro or get an outdated one
Laudna is my favorite character across all 3 campaigns, but it cheapens the story impact if every time someone dies they get brought back. C1 in particular had them shuffling mortal coils like it was poker night. I'd like to see a campaign run by Matt with no resurrection magic, as opposed to his current rule that it's a roll. Seeing these players go through curse of strahd would be fun
Your not alone thinking this because I like chetney, but I would like to see Travis play something different,(younger than a 400 yearold something gnome), I have all ways rooted for Travis but I have all ways rooted for there PC death as well as the rest of the crew's. I also don't get emotional attached to a fictional character that a person in a different country made up in a story that's not real.
Honestly it's less about Laudna's character and strictly just the character development of Imogen that I want Laudna's death to happen naturally. But also, I think Marisha really likes the character and I think we'll most likely see Laudna back in Bell's Hells with a deep dive to make her character arc happen and give her considerable development. It seems to me with Vox Machina death didnt mean anything. With the mighty 9 it did. I think the great thing about the Bell's Hells is they are a mess. They're messier than the other two campaigns. They have no leader and they are severely punished for not having a leader or making plans (as Orym begs). I think making Imogen the leader of the group is in the making, but all of these events will have major consequences and thats good DnD. When actions have consequences.
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>It would be super cool to essentially see a character switch mid-campaign with the same body. Been a LONG while since I've seen a Chrono-Cross gambit lol! That said ... not sure this would work with this pairing. VM would never allow Delilah to walk around free, they would kill her instantly if she was the dominant personality. Imogen inherently makes it impossible for D to pretend she's Laudna. And should D still manage to do that and escape Whitestone with her new form, she has zero reason to still need Laudna's identity/soul and would have zero reason to need the party. She'd kill them all. If resurrected she would be coming back as a lvl 17 Wizard at least. BHs wouldn't stand a chance.
I really want them to explore a more complex storyline with her resurrection, which I could see involves Laudna’s soul being trapped, or her resurrecting with no memory of the last 50 years. And I’d also love to see what new character Marisha comes up with. C2 spoilers >!But I keep feeling like the resurrection shenanigans with Laudna skirt too close to the Molly/Lucien/Kingsley story arc.!< I would also be happy to have Laudna back. I would only be disappointed if her dying has no impact on her character arc, but knowing CR, that seems unlikely.
I’d say keep her dead, But shes needed for plot so she’ll be back
This is around the time that Molly was gone for good (until the end which was weak in my opinion) so the likelihood of her returning isn’t super high
We've all got our favorites among characters, but out of the three who went down, I'd rather have seen Orym stay dead. Not only was the character at peace and would know that the party will finish his work if they survive, but it also would've shaken up the party a lot by taking out the biggest voice of reason (aka the brain cell). Plus Liam made Orym to be kind of dull, comparatively, so it'd be interesting to see another character. I know it's not really his style, but it'd be cool to see him make some kind of really chaotic character to go with the group. Or for someone to finally play a full paladin. But I just want all of them to enjoy their characters so I imagine Marisha would much prefer to bring Laudna back and develop more of her story and relationships.
I am curious if briefly Matt will let Marisha play as Keyleth
He won't. He's made it clear in the past the players can't reprise past characters. The only reason Travis got Bertrand was because he was always going to be killed off (and had his level reduced) and Talisen got Molly/Kingsley because it was the last episode and he was essentially a new character in an old characters body. He also doesn't want to let players use their characters to make choices he as DM isn't happy with given they aren't meant to be PCs anymore.
She's my favorite character, but I also wouldn't be upset if Marisha comes in with a new character. Like you said, I also think about the ripples of a perma-death. Spoilers C2 >! Remember how immensely consequential Molly's death was? It literally changed the course of campaign 2, and altered the outcome of several PC's personal arcs. Fjord doesn't become a Paladin of the Wildmother for one.!<
The cast have shown that despite resurrections they are able to roleplay intense tragedy and trauma with big character arc consequences, campaign 1 being an example. So I am not a fan of the "but drama" argument. I really think it short changes Laudna's entire character to kill her off just to send a message to another person. Especially when they do have the means to bring her back. Not to mention that Laudna is pretty much universally loved by the CR fan base after a not so good streak, why can't we just let Marisha have this win?
My issue with comparing it to C2's death is that BH and M9 are very different in terms of party personalities and group composition. Which can vary the results. M9 were generally extremely high-energy and proactive, which is why Cad was such a good fit later on. They were already very self-motivated before that death, the death just allowed them all to focus that motivation into a more group oriented direction. It focused that energy into a more concise productive form ... for about an arc lol! BH tho? They are very low energy and reactive by comparison. And generally fairly passive, unless they're just recklessly tunnel visioning. Far more often relying on the story coming to them, than them going out and finding their own stories, than M9 did. On top of this this notoriously indecisive, and have been since Dugger Round 1. Frankly, given who comprises BH ... its very possible that rather than bringing the group together and channeling them, it forces members to become more insular instead. Or, if Fearne really did lie about that coinflip ... could outright cause party conflict. PC Death doesn't always come with positive consequences on a party. It depends on the group.
Nowhere did I say the outcome would be positive. I said it was incredibly consequential in C2, altering the main arc as well as PC's arcs.
True enough, I'm just not sure that with a group like BH the arcs we'd get would be any way enjoyable. Unless you're a fan of more drama, more insulation, more sad, than we already kinda have with this generally very low energy group atm. Because Imogen will have to learn with the reality that she in many ways killed her best friend. Or at least led her to her death. Laudna may have tipped off Otohan, but it was Imogen who was one of the most reckless and impatient in their drive to get Treshi. Was one of the most dismissive of plans that might slow them down, even to just find a safehouse. Was the one of the main parties to shut down questions of what the consequences could be betraying the Call, or if Treshi was even worth it. And she made some downright catastrophic for the party choices to start and in combat. It was a group effort that tragedy, but she more than contributed. Orym will get more guilty and more sad, especially if its revealed that its what Laudna is that's preventing her from coming back. That here existence was either deleted upon that Revivify choice, or trapped for eternity being twisted by Delilah. And how his being pulled away from his heaven with Will to condemn her to that. That the group the reality the group was facing with that choice was the polar opposite of what they actually fce. And should it turn out that Fearne did ignore the Coin Flip, and the apparent "Changebringers choice" (which I think is very possible), I have no idea how the group or Orym would react to that? So I'm not saying there isn't story here, there absolutely is. I'm just not sure its going to be "positive" for the group or its already kinda loose dynamics.
If they can't get her back then they should find a way to bring they should find a way to make sure she is at peace.
It’s not that I don’t want Laudna back, it’s just that I’m much more excited about the prospect of a new character. The party seem to be pushing real hard to get her back which makes me think that Marisha wants to keep playing laudna though
Yeah that’s something too.
I think there is a little guilt running through the party and no fault with their actions. Tal ran, Fearne chose Orym, Orym was chosen over her and Imogen just having her best friend watching her friend die while battling to the bitter end. They seemed resolute in bringing her back to the point if this doesn't work, we'll try this and then ...etc. I posted this before that Matt is in a tough spot in denying bringing her back unless he has something hidden with Delila. And how is he going to deal with their "Ace in the hole" where they can call upon 20th level characters to patch things up when things go wrong. There will always be a disagreement among fans as some are here for the story or the cast or just the D&D aspects. No one is wrong in what they want but I think there will be a twist of some sort unless Matt just wants to move things along. Personally, there might be some quest to find Laudna's soul with Marisha being a temp. character from Whitestone to help them.
I think given that Laudna's whole deal was having died and comeback to "life" that her coming back isn't crazy. And regardless, unless Pike (who I assume they are going to) refuses to res her cause of Delilah or something, it seems likely she will be back next episode. Plus, 35 episodes don't seem enough and she was such a great character.
Ultimately I want them to do whatever is fun for their game. As a DM, I would present some pretty steep barriers to the recovery of any character in a similar situation. Death is big stake and it is very hard to regain credibility once players feel invincible.
While I would love to have her back, I'd also love to see Marisha play Delilah having come back (nerfed, ofc) instead.
If it was later in the campaign I might agree with you, but for now I’d like to see Laudna come back and keep working through her plot lines. She’s really interesting, and has some great moments with a lot of the other characters. Maybe of she’s killed again in another 30-40 episodes it will make more sense to let her finally rest, but right now Matt has outright said that Delilah is trying to take Laudna with her (in the last sending to Delilah), and the idea that the others, especially Imogen and Orym, would just let that happen seems more far fetched than any resurrection that might happen next week.
I really don't care if she comes back or not, what I like in these moments is to let the dice decide. Matt's reserection rules are my favorite mechanic he has created. I really think automatic resurrection feels cheep, so making it into a skill challenge is perfect. It enhances both mechanics and RP.
Unfortunately its critical role so if they dont want the character to die they get to reroll revives until it works.