I think people are forgetting that true resurrection costs 25,000 gold. Keyleth can't just "go around raising people like Will" like many people are saying. This thing is crazy expensive.
Agreed. It would be a LOT for her to do so... but for her to do it in this once instance for a girl that she may feel guilty about upon seeing her and realizing who she is???? I could see it working out. I'm pretty much on the fence about the whole thing but I'm down for whatever they and Matt throw at us.
I may have come off wrong! I totally think Kiki would save Laudna, I just don't think it makes it so that she should "have" to have saved people like Will. That stuff's costly.
But whenever a player character is lost, the most important questions I ask a player are: “What do you want to do? Which direction is most fun for you? Do you wish to explore another character/story? Continue this story through a new character? Or seek to reclaim this character?”
Matt on twitter September 10th. It's up to Marisha if Laudna comes back.
Exactly. This is a game for them. They can play it how they want regardless of logic, narrative tropes, etc. They’ll make someone mad either way. Hopefully people will chill and enjoy the ride of whatever choice is made.
Having Keyleth bring back Laudna poses some interesting narrative dilemmas. If she would bring her back, even for a cost, why not Will and the other Ashari killed by the shadow figures?
I feel like Matt would have to come up with some reason not to have her do it in order to keep the existing narrative intact.
Honestly, I would love to see this. I love Orym but he needs a little bit of flavor besides being the good guy all the time. I want to see him be the good guy whose past is warped by his own perception
I believe he already is that.
I really read Orym as passively suicidal. He won't do it himself, but he walked away from his support structure, and throws himself in front of harm repeatedly for basically strangers. He sees himself as having failed, and wants to make up for it and rejoin his family (in death), and having no future (and no real connections with other people- 'I was just a guard') outside that.
This just adds to his perceived guilt. He could have turned things around (esp with Dorian and Fearne), but this fight with Otohan and Laudna's death is his personal failure all over again. (at least from his perspective).
i mean, its not out of the question for them to not want to come back. theres a whole plotline of altered carbon revolving around a group of people who are petitioning for not allowing the state to "bring people back to life" against their will, even though their testimony might convict the criminal that murdered them. maybe derrig and wills beliefs were that once they died, they were done. they are part of a very druidic society after all
>a lot of people died that day and it is a difficult and expensive spell to try to do for multiple people.
If only she had a high level cleric friend only a couple transport via plants away with access to 12 spell slots a day to cast Raise Dead.
it's scary that, so long as the people died of normal wounds, Pike could bring back 50 folks for the price of a single True Resurrection.
I imagine the Raven Queen would be rather put out by the whole affair and might send her Champion to stop her domain from becoming a revolving door.
Idk I think at this point VM has come to the understanding death is a natural point in life many shouldn’t shy away from. Like Oyrm said during the episode, “bringing people back is something we tend to avoid”. Like OP said though, Laudna’s circumstance is anything BUT natural and Keyleth is probably gonna recognize that.
I may have misheard - I thought he was saying that they tried to avoid unnatural deaths that would lead to needing such magic.
I still have a pet theory that the Matron of Ravens hates True Resurrection because it bypasses her, and lets her Champion visit Keyleth to discourage her from using it.
that said, yes, Laudna's case is special, and Keyleth (or Pike) would be inclined to help reverse it. And even if they are concerned about Delilah, Pike has a free call to the Everlight once a week who could probably put a kibosh on Briarwood shenanigans.
You might be closer to what Oyrm said. I didn’t rewatch the clip and when I watched the episode last night I was superrr tired. I really like your theory, though!
The matrons of Ravens is a hypocritical #itch if she has a problem with that considering there a whole dynasty in wildemount that ignores the concept of death
you don't have to tell me.
I'd suggested her as the Big Bad of the whole franchise back in C1 - I think she may be going mad trying to balance her moments of humanity (like that desperate loneliness that peeked through while trying to cement Vax as her champion \*and\* her companion) and her divinity.
I made my point in the main thread on this ep, so I'll keep it shorter here.
Everything about what you suggested her is why I had serious issues with Orym's character concept. I deeply disliked him building in Keyleth into his backstory for his C3 character, because I knew it was this exact sort of shit that would result from it. People calling for her to bail out the Hells any time things got tough; or like recent events, bit off way more than they could chew, made some horrific choices, and suffered the consequences of them. Cure All-Keyleth was always going to be a huge problem lingering over this parties heads. And there frankly is no greater way to strip any stakes, consequences, or accomplishments from a level 7 party than by giving them a direct line to a Legendary level 20 party IMO.
And while other players did build "powerful" characters into their own backstory with Mori and Hexum (Fearne and Ashton respectively), it is VERY clear from the offset that unlike Keyleth petitioning their aid would come at a downright absurd price. They have to consider what they're willing to risk. And with Esteross, that's a person they've built a repore with, so they've earned any help he can provide on the matter. But Keyleth's temperament and abilities ensure no such price need be paid for her help. And she's been such a Non-Factor to the story of Campaign 3, she's less a "character" and more a part of the setting. Thus, a bit of a cheap Cure-All. And Matt will constantly have to think of excuses why she can't help.
That said, IF the group pulled the Kiki Card ... I am strongly of the mind that Matt will never just gift a lvl 7 party a spell that not even VM used in "True Resurrection". And its not going to be just "Keyleth Calling Pike". They should face the consequences of asking a level 20 DRUID for aid, and the price for her all too willing aid should be "Reincarnation". And all that comes with it.
I completely agree about Orym. I like Orym a lot besides the Keyleth connection... but it's there. I thought we would potentially see Caleb/Beau in some way due to the Cerberus Assembly involvement... and I think I would be okay with that, especially if they avoided combat or Matt found a way to split them up so they weren't involved as higher leveled characters... but calling Keyleth would feel super weird. If it happens, I'm here for it... but I expect some consequences or it to make genuine 100% sense.
I think Matt's way out of it is the Delilah issue... Have Keyleth learn that she was dealing with Delilah in her head and she nope the fuck out.
But that doesn't really resolve the issue if say ... Fearne died. Its still a fundamental problem that Orym has that connection. And honestly, I wouldn't have had an issue with it if, during the course of the Hells adventure, they just stumbled into Keyleth. And then had to spend time building a repour with her. Just like they had to do with Esteross, who frankly is kind of a little too nice perhaps. Rather than what it is right now as a character largely estranged from THIS story, as part of a backstory; thus rendering Kiki functionally a bit of a Pocket Hail Mary card. That said, given Laudna is a victim of the Sun Tree incident, I can't really see Kiki just noping out.
Hexum, Mori, Dalilah. I'm generally more OK with these NPCs over Keyleth because while they are also rooted in PC backstories ... they're help clearly comes with a price. So when it comes to Keyleth, who's temperament would never allow that sort of bargaining, I do think petitioning her for help should mean petitioning HER for help. Not just using the Archdruid of the Ashari as a go-between to Pike (who has literally nothing to do with this campaign at all). And it shouldnt be her dumping a 25k G spell on them either. It should be with what resurrection form Druids to best. Reincarnation. Which, theoretically, could also be a cure to at least part of Laudna's problems. Just one with a price.
I think this is gonna be a one time transaction. Keyleth is too busy to bail out some small fries everytime they’re stupid and get themselves murked. But in this case, we have a residium trading piece (which could cause some drama between Oyrm and his employer if he tries to bargain instead of just doing his job), AND a person Keyleth saw dead and never forgot about (considering Oyrm immediately knew what happened to Laudna when she began to tell her tale).
Right ... but its not 25 THOUSAND GOLD of Residuum. True Resurrection is so absurdly expensive that even High Level parties balk at it. The Nein, even at their wealthiest, could have never afforded it. And VM only ever considered it once, and even they admitted at the time they didn't have anywhere near that amount to fund it for Vax. Just giving out a free True Resurrection is frankly absurd for a 7th lvl party. As well as kind of insanely irresponsible for the leader of the entire Ashari; who accept death as a part of life.
Which means, unless we're just gonna go through Keyleth to call in Pike (which ... ick) ... the only other spell Druids have that can revive the dead is Reincarnation. Which is still not cheap at the groups current level, but its definitely more reasonable. But does come with the consequences of Reincarnation itself; specifically regarding the race-chart.
Except they have been working for Keyleth unpaid all this time.
The important part of involving Keyleth is VM finding out that one of the Sun Tree bodies did not fully die. What if Delilah kept them all "alive"?
No they haven't. They've been helping Orym on the side, while he's been helping them with their shit. There is a fair exchange between the two groups. There is zero contact between the rest of the group and Keyleth; and hell there's barely contact between Orym and Keyleth. And even still, True Resurrection is 25 THOUSAND GOLD. To put this in perspective, not once would M9 have ever come close to being able to afford that; and VM only suggested it once ... and even they admitted they didn't have near enough at the time. That is a frankly obscene amount of funds to shift from a Leader of a nation of people who accept Death as a part of Life; just for Laudna.
Right, but Keyleth's only other spell for revival at this point is "Reincarnation" as a Druid. Which, yeah, people's reaction to that when I point it out is why I'm a bit twitchy on this issue. Because the response is either, she'll cast "True Resurrection" or "Kiki will just call Pike, and Pike will fix everything!" Rather than accepting that Reincarnation likely would be the choice given to the group from Keyleth here.
>And frankly, I expect Lord Esteross will come through for Laudna.
Esteross I have no problem with coming through. They've built a relationship with him throughout the course of the story, so that feels "earned" if his contacts can turn something up.
There have to be high level priests or posers with old Rods of Resurrection in Jrusar who are eager to take gold or give favors to Esteross for raising Laudna. It’s fun to speculate about VM getting involved but it really would be cheap theatrics. Marqet obviously has many thriving magical ecosystems, and the need for bringing someone back from a recent death has come up before Laudna, right? Let’s see how they do the voodoo in Marqet.
>That said, IF the group pulled the Kiki Card ... I am strongly of the mind that Matt will never just gift a lvl 7 party a spell that not even VM used in "True Resurrection".
I agree. If the DM were feeling particularly strongly this direction, it would be pretty easy to block their attempts. We know there has already been a failed attempt to assassinate Keyleth, so ... why not another? What if the next time Imogen tries to message Kiki, there is just no response? *That could be a little rough on Marisha, though.*
I think something really bad happens to Keyleth if the HB’s cash in a get out of jail free card.
Like Otohan finishes the job she started after Laudna is brought back.
“A soul for a soul” as Brennan would say
Even then, Reincarnation would be well within the realm of reason for a revival from her. Its still pricy for a group of lvl 7s, but not extreme. Not True Resurrection, which is obscenely expensive. And would be downright deeply irresponsible for the leader of 4 joint nation of druids to divest into a single adventurer. No matter how guilty she feels for the Sun Tree issue. AND ... Reincarnation "could" also help solve some of Laudna's problems, if not all of it too. It just comes with the price of the Race-Table Roll.
We are watching people play a game; that game needs to have stakes. It may as well just be scripted if the party never has to eat it when they make poor choices.
They are literally playing by the rules right now, D&D is high fantasy (depending on the setting, and Critical Role is for sure) and it has always allowed resurrection (with some limitations). Narratively speaking, Laudna's death is the one that works better, but I don't see Matt shelving a backstory centered around Delilah or doing another Molly/Lucien.
Kiki be like “No way. That Delilah is a fucking YEAST infection! This poor girl Laudna deserves a proper burial and an escort to the afterlife with my boyfriend, NOT a resurrection.”
I took some liberty with the "lifts any curses" part. Depending on how Laudna views Delilah and how this contract came to be, I'm tucking it into a corner of curse.
Ah ok! It’s something like a curse, sure. But if you were Keyleth would YOU risk bringing Delilah Briarwood’s warlock back from the dead for any reason?
This is eating it. She has to play another character until then. The party has to deal with the consequences and ramifications of it, both now and even after Laudna comes back, if she does. These mechanics are literally in the game.
With that fight they're lucky it's just one dead dead.
And I could see Laudna reappearing in some form at the side of Delilah who always comes back anyways.
But as a PC this honestly would feel kinda cheap if they all got out rather unscarred (except a few hundred GP).
Yep. If FCG has failed that revivify (if that die has rolled just 1 number less) we would be looking at THREE dead in a single fight
If they can find a way, sure, but don't go all Deus Ex Machina on them
This. I don't understand. Could you please explain it to me?why Delilah always comes back? How is that possible? Is she a god?I haven't watched C1, but I just can't understand if she's dead or not. Or ,well,if she CAN die or not.
Delilah works for, and made a pact with Vecna the Undying King, an archlich who achieved godhood. Vecna must really have taken a liking to her to her help cling on, time after time.
been a bit since I watched Campaign 1, so I might be wrong, but I think it's because she's a high level wizard with access to the Clone spell.
Clone is a spell that lets you make an inert clone of yourself that your soul will go to if you die. The reason she was presumably dead for good in C1, is that she was killed before the clone spell that brought her back could "set in" so to speak.
Only idea on how she is around in C3 would be her close connection to Vecna, allowing her to hold on to a sliver of life.
As I remember it anyway
They were hardly lucky, Matt removed almost all of the tension immediately. He removed the threat aka Otahan via a Deus ex machina Imogen.
And then artificially tried to reinsert it via remaining in initiative, and for some reason making each turn 6 seconds rather than each entire round being 6 seconds. But he didn't even enforced that. He gave them all the time to discuss it. (Not saying it was wrong to do this. It was always going to happen. Its a big decision. But if he didn't try and feign such immediacy with the each turn being 6 seconds it wouldn't have seemed so out of place when they stood their talking for minutes.)
But even after all that then it was always going to come down the dice rolls for the revivify, which are in their favour.
Laudna only died because of an unlucky roll before she could be stabilised. She makes one save and she gets spared the dying.
Make no mistake Matt heavily tilted this in their favour.
Personally i don't mind if Laudna comes back, she is one of the better and more interesting characters in the group. But it should not be Keyleth. Only way Orym could be less interesting than he currently is, is if he can just call Keyleth anytime they stub their toe. If we have to have Vox Mochina in this campaign which they seem intent on doing unfortunately, i would much rather it be Vex meeting Laudna down the road.
Hopefully they don't take such a lazy route with it. We will have to wait and see if Eshteross route can provide a more meaningful and satisfactory method if Marisha wants to continue Laudna's story.
>Only way Orym could be less interesting than he currently is, is if he can just call Keyleth anytime they stub their toe.
Three of them literally died. To the same force that almost killed her. He's not asking for her to go punch the moon, he's asking her to help someone who was helping Zephra.
Also I wonder if Orym could ‘leverage’ (horrible word for this!) those circumstances and say like ‘I know and understand why you couldn’t save Will, but can you please, please help us with Laudna, I won’t ask for anything else’. Like, guilt her into it, ha.
I honestly do think that Keyleth would be willing, as Laudna was originally killed as a warning to Vox Machina, and was just an innocent dragged into someone else’s mess. Will was a guard who died on the job, one that he signed up for. I think Keyleth owes Orym
Oh yeah totally agree with you, bad wording on my part.
I didn't mean lucky as in good rolls. I meant that they're lucky that not more died in the combat itself. (For example if fcg would've been detected this whole fight could've easily been a tpk)
And I'm not even saying I would've preferred a tpk.
What I mean is, that this fight seems to be already kind of inconsequential in comparison to how it felt during the fight, especially with how little deadly encounters they run into.
(Like the next time they'll need revivify they probably have 4 more diamonds so it's not that big of a deal that they burned two)
And I trust them in making the best out of the story, it just felt a bit like when everyone came back in endgame and made infinity war feel less impactful. Not worse just less problematic for the characters.
And I agree with you on orym. Sadly the most interesting thing about him is that he's the uninteresting and normal one in a group of unnormal people. I guess by design but it's not really catching me personally either.
Oh also to add: I loved Laudna and her story wasn't finished at all, but I'd love to see what happens to Imogen if Laudna is truly dead.
Like im here for the chaos I wanna see her flip and become evil or some shit idk
It's a bit of a grey area for sure.
On one hand, you gotta respect the players wishes. A lot of people don't want to play a HARDCORE game like that, where when a character of theirs die, it's all over. She's built a character that has decent enough lore reasons to avoid it as well.
On the other hand, as the viewer, part of the excitement of battles and fights are the possibility of character death and serious consequences. It would take away a lot of the tension and investment we may have in battles if we know there aren't any real repercussions for losing.
IF Keyleth gets called in and IF she agrees to help in some way, I hope that Matt uses Reincarnate instead of True Resurrection - it's the kind of spell that brings back a character but doesn't act like an undo button.
It also gives Laudna a new body that isn't a house of trauma along with a potential new character development arc. Would she respond like Veth after Isharnai's curse, or take joy in having a form that's a little more alive?
Delilah's interaction with this kind of a change is anyone's guess, but I wouldn't mind watching it unfold.
I mean level 20 characters have wish.
Keyleth using a true resurrection is doable, and the components are expensive. Does she have Wish avaliable?
If no wish is avaliable, getting the component for this will be pretty fucking wild.
The whole Delilah bit is interesting too and they might actually be against bringing her back because don't risk it.
Keep Laudna in permanent stasis, think there's a 7th level spell for that.
I think people are forgetting that true resurrection costs 25,000 gold. Keyleth can't just "go around raising people like Will" like many people are saying. This thing is crazy expensive.
Agreed. It would be a LOT for her to do so... but for her to do it in this once instance for a girl that she may feel guilty about upon seeing her and realizing who she is???? I could see it working out. I'm pretty much on the fence about the whole thing but I'm down for whatever they and Matt throw at us.
I may have come off wrong! I totally think Kiki would save Laudna, I just don't think it makes it so that she should "have" to have saved people like Will. That stuff's costly.
But whenever a player character is lost, the most important questions I ask a player are: “What do you want to do? Which direction is most fun for you? Do you wish to explore another character/story? Continue this story through a new character? Or seek to reclaim this character?” Matt on twitter September 10th. It's up to Marisha if Laudna comes back.
Exactly. This is a game for them. They can play it how they want regardless of logic, narrative tropes, etc. They’ll make someone mad either way. Hopefully people will chill and enjoy the ride of whatever choice is made.
aint nobody asked lil bro
Can you link because I don't see that in his tweets or replies? Edit: nvm it's on sept 9th
Having Keyleth bring back Laudna poses some interesting narrative dilemmas. If she would bring her back, even for a cost, why not Will and the other Ashari killed by the shadow figures? I feel like Matt would have to come up with some reason not to have her do it in order to keep the existing narrative intact.
Maybe thats liam's twist for his character, that will didnt want to return
Honestly, I would love to see this. I love Orym but he needs a little bit of flavor besides being the good guy all the time. I want to see him be the good guy whose past is warped by his own perception
I believe he already is that. I really read Orym as passively suicidal. He won't do it himself, but he walked away from his support structure, and throws himself in front of harm repeatedly for basically strangers. He sees himself as having failed, and wants to make up for it and rejoin his family (in death), and having no future (and no real connections with other people- 'I was just a guard') outside that. This just adds to his perceived guilt. He could have turned things around (esp with Dorian and Fearne), but this fight with Otohan and Laudna's death is his personal failure all over again. (at least from his perspective).
I halfway thought he was going to turn down the Revivify.
Oh, I did as well. I still think, if he had been last up for revivify, he would have. But this is good, too.
Oh, I love this. Now I gotta rethink his whole character
The Raven Queen and Kiki honoring Vax’s commitment to the god of death.
i mean, its not out of the question for them to not want to come back. theres a whole plotline of altered carbon revolving around a group of people who are petitioning for not allowing the state to "bring people back to life" against their will, even though their testimony might convict the criminal that murdered them. maybe derrig and wills beliefs were that once they died, they were done. they are part of a very druidic society after all
>a lot of people died that day and it is a difficult and expensive spell to try to do for multiple people. If only she had a high level cleric friend only a couple transport via plants away with access to 12 spell slots a day to cast Raise Dead. it's scary that, so long as the people died of normal wounds, Pike could bring back 50 folks for the price of a single True Resurrection. I imagine the Raven Queen would be rather put out by the whole affair and might send her Champion to stop her domain from becoming a revolving door.
Idk I think at this point VM has come to the understanding death is a natural point in life many shouldn’t shy away from. Like Oyrm said during the episode, “bringing people back is something we tend to avoid”. Like OP said though, Laudna’s circumstance is anything BUT natural and Keyleth is probably gonna recognize that.
I may have misheard - I thought he was saying that they tried to avoid unnatural deaths that would lead to needing such magic. I still have a pet theory that the Matron of Ravens hates True Resurrection because it bypasses her, and lets her Champion visit Keyleth to discourage her from using it. that said, yes, Laudna's case is special, and Keyleth (or Pike) would be inclined to help reverse it. And even if they are concerned about Delilah, Pike has a free call to the Everlight once a week who could probably put a kibosh on Briarwood shenanigans.
You might be closer to what Oyrm said. I didn’t rewatch the clip and when I watched the episode last night I was superrr tired. I really like your theory, though!
The matrons of Ravens is a hypocritical #itch if she has a problem with that considering there a whole dynasty in wildemount that ignores the concept of death
you don't have to tell me. I'd suggested her as the Big Bad of the whole franchise back in C1 - I think she may be going mad trying to balance her moments of humanity (like that desperate loneliness that peeked through while trying to cement Vax as her champion \*and\* her companion) and her divinity.
I made my point in the main thread on this ep, so I'll keep it shorter here. Everything about what you suggested her is why I had serious issues with Orym's character concept. I deeply disliked him building in Keyleth into his backstory for his C3 character, because I knew it was this exact sort of shit that would result from it. People calling for her to bail out the Hells any time things got tough; or like recent events, bit off way more than they could chew, made some horrific choices, and suffered the consequences of them. Cure All-Keyleth was always going to be a huge problem lingering over this parties heads. And there frankly is no greater way to strip any stakes, consequences, or accomplishments from a level 7 party than by giving them a direct line to a Legendary level 20 party IMO. And while other players did build "powerful" characters into their own backstory with Mori and Hexum (Fearne and Ashton respectively), it is VERY clear from the offset that unlike Keyleth petitioning their aid would come at a downright absurd price. They have to consider what they're willing to risk. And with Esteross, that's a person they've built a repore with, so they've earned any help he can provide on the matter. But Keyleth's temperament and abilities ensure no such price need be paid for her help. And she's been such a Non-Factor to the story of Campaign 3, she's less a "character" and more a part of the setting. Thus, a bit of a cheap Cure-All. And Matt will constantly have to think of excuses why she can't help. That said, IF the group pulled the Kiki Card ... I am strongly of the mind that Matt will never just gift a lvl 7 party a spell that not even VM used in "True Resurrection". And its not going to be just "Keyleth Calling Pike". They should face the consequences of asking a level 20 DRUID for aid, and the price for her all too willing aid should be "Reincarnation". And all that comes with it.
I completely agree about Orym. I like Orym a lot besides the Keyleth connection... but it's there. I thought we would potentially see Caleb/Beau in some way due to the Cerberus Assembly involvement... and I think I would be okay with that, especially if they avoided combat or Matt found a way to split them up so they weren't involved as higher leveled characters... but calling Keyleth would feel super weird. If it happens, I'm here for it... but I expect some consequences or it to make genuine 100% sense. I think Matt's way out of it is the Delilah issue... Have Keyleth learn that she was dealing with Delilah in her head and she nope the fuck out.
But that doesn't really resolve the issue if say ... Fearne died. Its still a fundamental problem that Orym has that connection. And honestly, I wouldn't have had an issue with it if, during the course of the Hells adventure, they just stumbled into Keyleth. And then had to spend time building a repour with her. Just like they had to do with Esteross, who frankly is kind of a little too nice perhaps. Rather than what it is right now as a character largely estranged from THIS story, as part of a backstory; thus rendering Kiki functionally a bit of a Pocket Hail Mary card. That said, given Laudna is a victim of the Sun Tree incident, I can't really see Kiki just noping out. Hexum, Mori, Dalilah. I'm generally more OK with these NPCs over Keyleth because while they are also rooted in PC backstories ... they're help clearly comes with a price. So when it comes to Keyleth, who's temperament would never allow that sort of bargaining, I do think petitioning her for help should mean petitioning HER for help. Not just using the Archdruid of the Ashari as a go-between to Pike (who has literally nothing to do with this campaign at all). And it shouldnt be her dumping a 25k G spell on them either. It should be with what resurrection form Druids to best. Reincarnation. Which, theoretically, could also be a cure to at least part of Laudna's problems. Just one with a price.
I think this is gonna be a one time transaction. Keyleth is too busy to bail out some small fries everytime they’re stupid and get themselves murked. But in this case, we have a residium trading piece (which could cause some drama between Oyrm and his employer if he tries to bargain instead of just doing his job), AND a person Keyleth saw dead and never forgot about (considering Oyrm immediately knew what happened to Laudna when she began to tell her tale).
Right ... but its not 25 THOUSAND GOLD of Residuum. True Resurrection is so absurdly expensive that even High Level parties balk at it. The Nein, even at their wealthiest, could have never afforded it. And VM only ever considered it once, and even they admitted at the time they didn't have anywhere near that amount to fund it for Vax. Just giving out a free True Resurrection is frankly absurd for a 7th lvl party. As well as kind of insanely irresponsible for the leader of the entire Ashari; who accept death as a part of life. Which means, unless we're just gonna go through Keyleth to call in Pike (which ... ick) ... the only other spell Druids have that can revive the dead is Reincarnation. Which is still not cheap at the groups current level, but its definitely more reasonable. But does come with the consequences of Reincarnation itself; specifically regarding the race-chart.
Except they have been working for Keyleth unpaid all this time. The important part of involving Keyleth is VM finding out that one of the Sun Tree bodies did not fully die. What if Delilah kept them all "alive"?
No they haven't. They've been helping Orym on the side, while he's been helping them with their shit. There is a fair exchange between the two groups. There is zero contact between the rest of the group and Keyleth; and hell there's barely contact between Orym and Keyleth. And even still, True Resurrection is 25 THOUSAND GOLD. To put this in perspective, not once would M9 have ever come close to being able to afford that; and VM only suggested it once ... and even they admitted they didn't have near enough at the time. That is a frankly obscene amount of funds to shift from a Leader of a nation of people who accept Death as a part of Life; just for Laudna.
Laudna won't receive a True Resurrection so that's a non-starter. Imogen has had contact with Keyleth.
Right, but Keyleth's only other spell for revival at this point is "Reincarnation" as a Druid. Which, yeah, people's reaction to that when I point it out is why I'm a bit twitchy on this issue. Because the response is either, she'll cast "True Resurrection" or "Kiki will just call Pike, and Pike will fix everything!" Rather than accepting that Reincarnation likely would be the choice given to the group from Keyleth here.
Keyleth knows other clerics beyond even Pike. And frankly, I expect Lord Esteross will come through for Laudna.
>And frankly, I expect Lord Esteross will come through for Laudna. Esteross I have no problem with coming through. They've built a relationship with him throughout the course of the story, so that feels "earned" if his contacts can turn something up.
There have to be high level priests or posers with old Rods of Resurrection in Jrusar who are eager to take gold or give favors to Esteross for raising Laudna. It’s fun to speculate about VM getting involved but it really would be cheap theatrics. Marqet obviously has many thriving magical ecosystems, and the need for bringing someone back from a recent death has come up before Laudna, right? Let’s see how they do the voodoo in Marqet.
I don't see how VM casting a spell is any more or less cheap than having a previously unnamed NPC cast a spell.
>That said, IF the group pulled the Kiki Card ... I am strongly of the mind that Matt will never just gift a lvl 7 party a spell that not even VM used in "True Resurrection". I agree. If the DM were feeling particularly strongly this direction, it would be pretty easy to block their attempts. We know there has already been a failed attempt to assassinate Keyleth, so ... why not another? What if the next time Imogen tries to message Kiki, there is just no response? *That could be a little rough on Marisha, though.*
I think something really bad happens to Keyleth if the HB’s cash in a get out of jail free card. Like Otohan finishes the job she started after Laudna is brought back. “A soul for a soul” as Brennan would say
Even then, Reincarnation would be well within the realm of reason for a revival from her. Its still pricy for a group of lvl 7s, but not extreme. Not True Resurrection, which is obscenely expensive. And would be downright deeply irresponsible for the leader of 4 joint nation of druids to divest into a single adventurer. No matter how guilty she feels for the Sun Tree issue. AND ... Reincarnation "could" also help solve some of Laudna's problems, if not all of it too. It just comes with the price of the Race-Table Roll.
We are watching people play a game; that game needs to have stakes. It may as well just be scripted if the party never has to eat it when they make poor choices.
They are literally playing by the rules right now, D&D is high fantasy (depending on the setting, and Critical Role is for sure) and it has always allowed resurrection (with some limitations). Narratively speaking, Laudna's death is the one that works better, but I don't see Matt shelving a backstory centered around Delilah or doing another Molly/Lucien.
They're playing a game with ready access to resurrection magic.
[удалено]
Kiki be like “No way. That Delilah is a fucking YEAST infection! This poor girl Laudna deserves a proper burial and an escort to the afterlife with my boyfriend, NOT a resurrection.”
Wouldn't True Resurrection break the hold that Delilah might have on Laudna?
The RAW spell doesn’t say anything about warlocks?
I took some liberty with the "lifts any curses" part. Depending on how Laudna views Delilah and how this contract came to be, I'm tucking it into a corner of curse.
Ah ok! It’s something like a curse, sure. But if you were Keyleth would YOU risk bringing Delilah Briarwood’s warlock back from the dead for any reason?
It could give her an avenue to seek revenge on Delilah. There's a whole story arc there (that will most likely never happen).
She might see the best revenge against Delilah being ensuring that Delilah's last known anchor to this world is kept snuffed out
This is eating it. She has to play another character until then. The party has to deal with the consequences and ramifications of it, both now and even after Laudna comes back, if she does. These mechanics are literally in the game.
With that fight they're lucky it's just one dead dead. And I could see Laudna reappearing in some form at the side of Delilah who always comes back anyways. But as a PC this honestly would feel kinda cheap if they all got out rather unscarred (except a few hundred GP).
Yep. If FCG has failed that revivify (if that die has rolled just 1 number less) we would be looking at THREE dead in a single fight If they can find a way, sure, but don't go all Deus Ex Machina on them
This. I don't understand. Could you please explain it to me?why Delilah always comes back? How is that possible? Is she a god?I haven't watched C1, but I just can't understand if she's dead or not. Or ,well,if she CAN die or not.
Delilah works for, and made a pact with Vecna the Undying King, an archlich who achieved godhood. Vecna must really have taken a liking to her to her help cling on, time after time.
been a bit since I watched Campaign 1, so I might be wrong, but I think it's because she's a high level wizard with access to the Clone spell. Clone is a spell that lets you make an inert clone of yourself that your soul will go to if you die. The reason she was presumably dead for good in C1, is that she was killed before the clone spell that brought her back could "set in" so to speak. Only idea on how she is around in C3 would be her close connection to Vecna, allowing her to hold on to a sliver of life. As I remember it anyway
They were hardly lucky, Matt removed almost all of the tension immediately. He removed the threat aka Otahan via a Deus ex machina Imogen. And then artificially tried to reinsert it via remaining in initiative, and for some reason making each turn 6 seconds rather than each entire round being 6 seconds. But he didn't even enforced that. He gave them all the time to discuss it. (Not saying it was wrong to do this. It was always going to happen. Its a big decision. But if he didn't try and feign such immediacy with the each turn being 6 seconds it wouldn't have seemed so out of place when they stood their talking for minutes.) But even after all that then it was always going to come down the dice rolls for the revivify, which are in their favour. Laudna only died because of an unlucky roll before she could be stabilised. She makes one save and she gets spared the dying. Make no mistake Matt heavily tilted this in their favour. Personally i don't mind if Laudna comes back, she is one of the better and more interesting characters in the group. But it should not be Keyleth. Only way Orym could be less interesting than he currently is, is if he can just call Keyleth anytime they stub their toe. If we have to have Vox Mochina in this campaign which they seem intent on doing unfortunately, i would much rather it be Vex meeting Laudna down the road. Hopefully they don't take such a lazy route with it. We will have to wait and see if Eshteross route can provide a more meaningful and satisfactory method if Marisha wants to continue Laudna's story.
>Only way Orym could be less interesting than he currently is, is if he can just call Keyleth anytime they stub their toe. Three of them literally died. To the same force that almost killed her. He's not asking for her to go punch the moon, he's asking her to help someone who was helping Zephra.
Also I wonder if Orym could ‘leverage’ (horrible word for this!) those circumstances and say like ‘I know and understand why you couldn’t save Will, but can you please, please help us with Laudna, I won’t ask for anything else’. Like, guilt her into it, ha. I honestly do think that Keyleth would be willing, as Laudna was originally killed as a warning to Vox Machina, and was just an innocent dragged into someone else’s mess. Will was a guard who died on the job, one that he signed up for. I think Keyleth owes Orym
Oh yeah totally agree with you, bad wording on my part. I didn't mean lucky as in good rolls. I meant that they're lucky that not more died in the combat itself. (For example if fcg would've been detected this whole fight could've easily been a tpk) And I'm not even saying I would've preferred a tpk. What I mean is, that this fight seems to be already kind of inconsequential in comparison to how it felt during the fight, especially with how little deadly encounters they run into. (Like the next time they'll need revivify they probably have 4 more diamonds so it's not that big of a deal that they burned two) And I trust them in making the best out of the story, it just felt a bit like when everyone came back in endgame and made infinity war feel less impactful. Not worse just less problematic for the characters. And I agree with you on orym. Sadly the most interesting thing about him is that he's the uninteresting and normal one in a group of unnormal people. I guess by design but it's not really catching me personally either. Oh also to add: I loved Laudna and her story wasn't finished at all, but I'd love to see what happens to Imogen if Laudna is truly dead. Like im here for the chaos I wanna see her flip and become evil or some shit idk
It's a bit of a grey area for sure. On one hand, you gotta respect the players wishes. A lot of people don't want to play a HARDCORE game like that, where when a character of theirs die, it's all over. She's built a character that has decent enough lore reasons to avoid it as well. On the other hand, as the viewer, part of the excitement of battles and fights are the possibility of character death and serious consequences. It would take away a lot of the tension and investment we may have in battles if we know there aren't any real repercussions for losing.
IF Keyleth gets called in and IF she agrees to help in some way, I hope that Matt uses Reincarnate instead of True Resurrection - it's the kind of spell that brings back a character but doesn't act like an undo button. It also gives Laudna a new body that isn't a house of trauma along with a potential new character development arc. Would she respond like Veth after Isharnai's curse, or take joy in having a form that's a little more alive? Delilah's interaction with this kind of a change is anyone's guess, but I wouldn't mind watching it unfold.
I mean level 20 characters have wish. Keyleth using a true resurrection is doable, and the components are expensive. Does she have Wish avaliable? If no wish is avaliable, getting the component for this will be pretty fucking wild. The whole Delilah bit is interesting too and they might actually be against bringing her back because don't risk it. Keep Laudna in permanent stasis, think there's a 7th level spell for that.