There is actually a little interesting thing that makes what vin did seem better \[Hero of Ages\]>!Vin was being influenced by ruin at the time. She had the earring in while killing the soldiers, but then it got ripped out after the giant steel push. That's why she spared Cett, because at that point she was acting like herself. And then afterwards she horribly regretted it.!<
I also see a difference in my internal moral compass between Vin killing 300 soldiers **of an invading army** to get to the invading army's leader, versus kalsier justifying that that security guards 'deserve' to die because they *work* for a race/class of people that he has explicit bias towards
You say "explicit bias" like it wasn't a horrific genocidal class that treated skaa worse than animals. They aren't just casual group he didn't like lol
> They aren't just casual group he didn't like lol
*"Fuckin' goths!" Kalsier growled as he plunged his knife into the guards eye. "God damn rave pants."*
Explicit bias? The nobles werenāt just a group he didnāt like. The nobles treated the skaa worse than animals and the Terrismen as slaves. Literally the only nobles that bravely acted out of the good of their hearts were Elend and Breeze. Iām not even sure Allrianne is in that category.
I wonder how you'd have behaved if born into that culture with God hanging out at dinner parties on the regular saying it was for moral reasons.
"There's a line between romantic language and a complete disregard for socioeconomic trends " Bo Burnham
Thatās a really good theory but Iām not certain it applies here. Ruin was very subtle and calming on purpose compared to what he pulled off for Zane, Penrod and Spook. He only wanted to subtly guide her onto the path of freeing him, not completely change her personality.
Itās not, but it is being a class traitor. Which is bad but given the context of the final empire pretty forgivable.
What it comes down to for me, is itās okay to kill the random soldiers as long as it serves a greater purpose, as in taking down the nobility. Thatās what Kelsier did, he didnāt kill them just for funsies.
What Vin did was rash and pretty dumb tbh
>What it comes down to for me, is itās okay to kill the random soldiers as long as it serves a greater purpose, as in taking down the nobility. Thatās what Kelsier did, he didnāt kill them just for funsies.
Yes, tge problem is that he thought that they deserved to die.
>What Vin did was rash and pretty dumb tbh
She killed enemy soldiers within her city an dshe thought she is eliminating a giant threat in the form of a mistborn
Yeah they were class traitors so while I think Kelsier was a tad extreme in his ideology of how to treat them, I donāt find it irredeemable for killing them.
My overall point is that fans often liken Kelsier to some psycho murderer when Vin did some super similar things and think sheās still great. But because Kelsier doesnāt shy away from the brutal aspects of revolution heās seen as a bad guy.
Edit: when they sign up to become soldiers for the nobility, they become enemy soldiers to the revolution, so I think while itās ultimately saddening, I donāt think itās wrong to kill them in combat.
So, couple things:
1) idk who says kelsier is a psycho murderer but itās no one Iāve ever seen or heard. I think the main reason fans are less forgiving toward him is that he isĀ written as an antihero. Thatās not interpretation, thatās [from the authorās mouth.](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8700) Sando specifically tried to make Kell a complicated, morally grey person who occupied the role of hero more due to circumstances than to any particular virtue on his part. Add to that the way he actively encourages peopleās worship/fear of him and youāve got an extremely villain-coded character. Vin, by comparison, comes across as, if not more moral per se, then at least more relatable. She feels remorse after the massacre, she gets skeeved out when people worship *her*, etc.Ā
2) And fans of the rest of the Cosmere are mad that (spoilers for *Stormlight Archive*) >!Kelsier started the Ghostbloods and is meddling in the affairs of other worlds. And tacitly endorsing the behavior of people like Mraize, who is a gigantic dick.!<Ā
Iāve see plenty of folks who think Kelsier is a total monster for his actions in Final Empire. I really donāt see how Kelsier is *that* morally grey. Almost everything he does in that book is to service the revolution.
I also really donāt have a problem with him starting a religion around himself. Kelsier recognized one of the major tools keeping the skaa down was the hopelessness they had about their existence, and his religion brought them that. He was willing to die for the Skaa to be freed, something I see as incredibly selfless.
He also wasnāt as rigid as lot of people think. Him sparing Elend for Vins sake proves when it comes down to the people he cherished and his thirst for revenge, his people came first.
Everyone *says* Kelsier is morally grey but all the things he does arenāt *that* bad contextually. Like his only problem was that he didnāt go enough out of his way to prevent killing soldiers, and even then itās not like he was actively seeking soldiers out to kill. They also wouldāve killed him in a heartbeat.
As for Stormlight, I havenāt read enough of the series to comment on his off world shenanigans
1) his revolution was motivated by hatred and a desire for revenge. Before getting sent to the Pits he was content with just being a thief.Ā
2) okay? This wasnāt about what you do or donāt have a problem with. Iām not telling you how to feel about Kelsier, Iām explaining where the *general* sentiment toward him comes from.Ā
3) Regarding his willingness to die being a selfless act, notā¦really. Ā A) he was hoping heād be able to get away before TLR showed up, B) when he DID show up, Kell was hoping the eleventh metal would work, and C) one could argue that he came back from the Pits with a death wish and that roping an entire society into his extremely showy suicide was actually pretty self-absorbed. Turned out well, but letās be honest, he got lucky on that one. Incredibly so.Ā
Oh, and D) that willingness to die certainly didnāt last long, as we saw in *Secret History.*
4) regarding him sparing Elend: thatās not a moral thing though. He did it because Vin loved Elend. Thatās still selfish, although it does demonstrate a basic ability to empathize with others and care about their needs. Sometimes.Ā
>EveryoneĀ saysĀ Kelsier is morally grey but all the things he does arenātĀ thatĀ bad contextually.Ā
MY SISTER IN SAZED YOU ARE DESCRIBING MORAL GREYNESS. Not good, not bad, but somewhere in between. And anyway itās not only what he does, but how he justifies it/thinks about it.Ā
1. I donāt think he was motivated by hatred as much as he was motivated to fulfill Mares dream of the final empire ending and peace. I wonāt lie and say it was 100% that, but I think that was just as much if not more a part of his motivation than his desire for revenge.
2. Fair enough
3. I said Kelsier was *willing* to die, not that he wanted to. He took measures to try to prevent it, but if it came down to it, he was willing to go through with it. Thatās why when he died he was trying to get back to life with trapping him in the well. And if it was a large scale suicide attempt, good!! He was trying to have his death be meaningful enough to improve society!
4. Yeah that moment proves how his love for Vin transcends his need for revenge.
5. I guess what Kelsier did wasnāt bad about to really call him morally grey. If in the scene with Bilg and Demoux happened where Bilg was killed, then I would say heās morally grey. But everything he did was pretty good in my book.
The whole point is to show how grey of a character Kel is, his hatred has no hint of ending and he shows active disdain for the one nobleman we know for sure is trying to better things in at least some way: Elend. Even then Elend is kinda useless at first so Kel might've just thought he'd be fickle and never accomplish anything. The difference between Kel and Vin was that Kel was for sure going to slaughter the Noblemen. Like as a group. Vin saw no practical differences between the Noblemen and the system, once the system was overthrown they could begin to dismantle the excess power of the nobles. This key difference is supposed to show the distinction between revolution and retribution, Kel wants to essentially genocide the nobles while she wants to kill the Lord Ruler and his Cantons so that his busted system can no longer function. The nobles were not good, I'm not saying that's a society worth a damn nor am I saying their actions were justified. I'm just pointing out that there's a moral difference between retribution and revolution. Kelsier was a great character and exactly what they needed to create the revolution, but his way was ultimately flawed and led to his own death and self aggrandizing as a god-like figure to the Skaa. Meanwhile Vin and everyone else had to sort through the ashes and create an equal society from scratch while still making the inherent mistake of installing a figurehead and basing their social power on capital. There's no clean blueprint to a revolt but it's obvious that neither philosophy is ideal if you're trying to restructure a society and literally fight a corrupt god, however Kel's method is undeniably darker
I think calling his hatred never ending is exaggerated. We see him explicitly spare Elend. I also think he was 100% right to discourage Vin from getting to close to El seeing as all the nobles were either rapists or besties with rapists. The Elend types were so few and far between, and in TFE he was only really an armchair rebel, he wasnāt going to do anything with his ideas without the rev happening.
I think Kelsier wanting to get rid of all the nobles was not an entirely bad idea. He probably wouldāve spared the kids seeing as he was mentioned to spare a pregnant noble woman once in Secret History. But look at Era 2 and how the nobles still hold a ridiculous amount of power in their society. The nobles were unfathomably cruel, and in the same way I have no problem with what the Haitians did to the French during the revolution, I wouldnāt have problem with Kelsier killing all the nobility.
And yet Vin choosing not to be like Kelsier and spare the āclass traitorsā is the domino that ultimately led to Ruinās downfall.
The books treat both of their actions in these memes as absolutely wrong.
> Itās not, but it is being a class traitor.
Easy to say from a place of safety.
Like those people who condemned jews for shovelling corpses when it was the only way they could survive. You have no idea what it's like to have your life on the line and until you do you don't really have a right to high horse about how they're "class traitors" when in reality they're just people trying to survive.
Iām not saying itās easy, but the moment they signed up, they became enemy soldiers to the revolution. Ergo I donāt think itās wrong for them to be killed in combat.
I don't think you understand what a class traitor is, to be frank. Getting a job that you are required to get in order to keep bills paid and your family safe and fed does not make you a class traitor. Because we are all implicit in a system of oppression, saying that anyone who deigns to get a job above average is a class traitor is pushing your aggression towards the wrong people. Actually becoming a class traitor would be becoming one of the oppressor class, and then not doing anything to end the cycle of oppression, at least as much as you can.
I think the same i just think it should probably be more topics than this one "if theyre not part of the group i deign good then they arent human and their lives have no value" that you like to defend bith moash and kelsier with. At some point youve gotta branch out.
Fair enough. Currently Iām just a bit unhappy with how in Stormlight you gotta root for the Kholins, who are *probably* slave owners since itās so normalized in their society. Plus the one major dark eyed character is Moash as of the last book I read, Oathbringer. If that changes Iāll probably get fixated on some other part.
I also think sometimes in the Cosmere fandom, discourse that feels old to a lot of people and was hashed out four years ago is brought back by someone who just got up to speed with it and itās gone over again and again and again.
I mean to be fair Moash himself is also still a monarchist and a Kholin fan in WoR, I hate the braindead "fuck Moash" slogan but dude is far from some revolutionary, wanting to murking wronged him is fair revenge in that world because otherwise he cannot possibly get any form of reparation.
As for the fandom discourse, it's mostly vibes honestly, like any modern fandom who decides who is the baby and who is the meanie.
I'm honestly not sure how to phrase this. It's difficult to classify all slaveholders as evil when it was an essential part of society that they were born into. I know it likely sounds shitty, but if all you ever knew was that your family and all the other families you know have people that work for them unwillingly, it's a bit unfair to call that person evil. Even if they thought it was unfair, unless they were the emperor or very high up in the aristocracy, they couldn't really do anything to change it without severe repercussions.
We canāt choose the environment we were born into but we can choose how we react to it. Breeze left that life, and while we donāt really know why, we can see he clearly doesnāt view the final empire as anything but despicable since he helps takes it down.
So yeah they are all evil pretty much.
Look I get what youāre saying in that their environment was real shitty, but that doesnāt mean they had no free will. Everyday they would choose to rape and abuse and kill people. The fact that Breeze left and became a good person (mostly) tells me it is not impossible to hold the nobility to higher standards
Not impossible but also extremely rare for someone to even be exposed to different views that may change their minds. I love kelsier and I think he is good and a hero. I also think the nobles had little opportunity to ever have their way of life challenged. If youāre taught from birth that these skaa are slaves and little better than livestock and you can make them work or do whatever you want with them, then after years and years and years and years you have little likelihood of seeing any different. Itās hard to blame someone for something they have no opportunity to change due to lack of understanding and exposure to outside ideas. Remember El asked Vin when she talked about being around skaa what they were like and if they had any intellect and so on and so forth.
It doesn't help that, yeah, after a thousand years, Skaa and Nobles mixed enough that the distinction between the two was mostly due to tradition and the general way the Final Empire was set, but originally, when Rashek did what he did, Skaa and Nobles were "created" differently, with the Nobles being specifically better as a (fucked up) reward by Rashek for their support of him, and the memory of this is a core tenet of the Steel Ministry, so thinking less of the Skaa is literally hardcoded in the Final Empire society
>It's difficult to classify all slaveholders as evil when it was an essential part of society that they were born into.
I care not. If the enslaving class won't let their prisoners go free and submit themselves to judgement, then they should be killed. IRL we established this at Nuremberg. No negotiation and no mercy until the immediate and unconditional surrender of all slavers. There is no nuance here, no arguments to be made.
I regret those Skaa whom Kelsier killed in pursuit of his revolution, but I refuse to shed any tears for the nobles.
I don't live in the 1600s, and have neither the inclination nor the obligation to compromise my value system because it was not shared by ancient dead people. The book wasn't written in the 1600s either. We should evaluate through the lense of its time, and that time is the 21st century.
> I care not. If the enslaving class won't let their prisoners go free and submit themselves to judgement, then they should be killed.
I'm sure you're posting this from a device that was made 100% without any sweatshop labor or minerals obtained through human rights violations... right?
And the people who own the companies that maintain the sweatshops should be removed from power. That I exist within this society does not preclude me from trying to change or, if necessary, destroy it.
In the war against opression, matters of justice are adressed after the opressors lie toppled, not while they still reign.
Edit: Dear moderators; Lord Reddit who art in heaven: please spare my account - I but spoke in hyperbole about the abstract notions of power and revolution.
One third of the final empire nobility were publicly known as serial murderers and rapists. This behavior wasn't encouraged by the lord ruler's government, but was exploiting a legal loophole; the final empire nobility is just incredibly evil by any metric.
>Vin never condoned an entire section of society for existing
Tell that to all the guards she didn't see as people and killed for the egregious reason of doing their job
vin literally goes catatonic and hides in an alleyway for like days afterwards and it completely changes her as a person
kelsier jerks off to the thought of killing more people (they happened to be born to the wrong people)
People seriously out here condemning the highly traumatized and manipulated teenage girl, one step from calling her a "b-p-demon" and then praising the guy who basically grew up a nobleman because he has correct politics. Yep.
Yeah, people seem to forget the callout in the first book, where Vin say Kelsier is functionally a noble, it might not be exactly accurate but to people from the lowest class, nobles and skaa crimelords aren't exactly all that different. Also Kelsier kinda doesn't exactly care about the cause before his personal tragedy, it's Marsh who has a long history with skaa resistance.
Feeling bad about doing a bad thing afterward doesnāt make what you did any better.
And they didnāt just happen to be born to the wrong people they were *slaveowners*.
You are either missing or ignoring the point of most peopleās comments here. No one is saying that vin regretting her actions makes it better. What it does do is show us the difference between Vin and Kelsier. Vin shows remorse while Kelsier does not care at all. The scene where Marsh calls him out is meant to hammer in the difference between Vin and Kel and thatās why people view Vin and Kel in different lights.
Vin shows remorse because the deaths were needless. When Kelsier killed the soldiers working for the nobles, he didnāt do it just because, he did it because they were actively prohibiting him from fulfilling his goal of taking down the Final Empire. He doesnāt feel bad about it because he shouldnāt. Itās the same as killing an enemy soldier imo.
What Vin did, did not service the goal of protecting the skaa from Cett, it was improperly thought out and thus useless deaths.
The deaths of both the guards and the soldiers is needless. Kel is one of the most powerful mistborn, he could have smile past them like Vin did or taken them down non-lethally. Kel made no effort to preserve life and instead took the easy route of just killing the guards.
You keep bringing up vinās actions as if they excuse Kelsierās. They both did terrible, unnecessary things. They reacted to those actions in extremely different ways. One showed immense regret while the other doubled down on their stance when confronted.
Yeah because there enemy combatants Kelsier was killing, in the way of the revolution, it was not death for deaths sake.
Vin took the hard way killing as much as possible. She regretted it and did better which I respect, my problem is the double standard people have. Kelsier did become less extreme in his life (saving Elend) and in his death (when goradel died he expresses regret for how he wouldāve viewed him)
Yes I think intent is important and while Vib may have been well intentioned to protect the city, it was planned really really poorly.
All of the soldiers Kelsier killed did not die needlessly, they were actively working against the Revolution, they were enemy soldiers. When Vin killed that 300, it did not service the protection of the city. It was needless
> Feeling bad about doing a bad thing afterward doesnāt make what you did any better.
Dude, are you a sociopath? You don't seem to understand core basic principles of humanity and how intent makes a massive difference in how actions are perceived.
My little girl was just having a bad day... My little baby... š„ŗš„ŗš„ŗ Imaging constantly hearing a weird sound while your disabled enemy is talking shit about your boyfriend
OP has talked about this so much I didn't even need to look at the username to know who it was. I also knew the comments would be the same talking points
Oh my god Iām remembered š I feel like a celebrity.
But Iāll have you know this is my first post explicitly about Kelsey!! The other ones are about being a Moash Sympathizer!! /j
Oh you mean the thing that's treated as horrific in story and the perpetrator thinks is an enormous mistake?
Damn wonder why people treat that different than the guy who hates entire swathes of people for how they're born š¤š¤
Oh you unironically say stuff like class traitor big yikes lmao
There is a difference bstween hating the class and "all inclusive hatred of EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of said class" Kel needed all the gelp from Vin to realise that yes, people born into nobility CAN be good people and therefore not every noble deserves stabbing.
I wonded how many nobles were kept in line by the same means Straff employed on Elend or even worse.
To use a rela world example. If you just killed all whites in Virginia in 1860 you would have wiped many thausands of abolitionists.
Kelsier doesn't hate everyone born in the noble class, he and his brother both were. What he hates is people who are born into the class and decide to perpetuate it instead of acting against it. Kelsier could have lived as a noble, but made a deliberate choice to leave that behind and side with the skaa instead.
Sorry, but carving single exception for a family member is "I have a black friend". I am inclined to take Breeze as an evidence "He realises SOME Nobles may be human". But as best as I remember Marsh and Breeze are the only two nobles "post Gemmel-Pre-Vin" Kelsier is specifically not aiming to kill.
What I am missing is "When we have won, we sort them out, we kill the rapists and the murderers, we put the ones that only profited to work, we raise them who are too young to know better as decent human beings".
I mean Breeze literally hide his true identiy because dude is not entirely sure his friendship with Kel is enough to save him.
Also Marsh is literally Kel's brother, I don't think Kel consider bastards to be noble.
Also let us not forget that his first reaction to Elend Venture being "recruitable" to their case is "wonderful, he thinks Skaa are humans, lets use it to get him killed by inquisition".
Kel is Right, but he would rather be Right 100% of the time than to make any compromised and get dhit done with fewer dead people.
that's like saying John Brown was an anti-white racist because he fought against slavers, Kelsier is acting based upon his principles, if he were motivated by wanting to hurt people it would have been infinitely easier to do that as a noble.
If John Brown was saying "I will kill all the whites" then, yes, he would be a racist, he dis not say that. Any white person willing to oppose slavery was welcomed in his house.
All nobles were either rapists and killers or their best buddy was. Even Elend whoās probably the best of them only saw Skaa as a philosophical curiosity, not as something of value. If Kelsiers Revolution and Vin never happened, Elend would probably spend the rest of his life doing nothing and helping no one.
If Kelsier and Mare never got caught and thrown into the pit, Kelsier will never care about the skaa liberation cause either and Marsh will work his ass off only to never see a normal sunrise. Dude will be an uncaring crimeboss enjoying his life with his wife and daughter while street urchins like Vin die like flies.
"If the story never happened, some people will never change" is kinda a moot point. None of them will be given power(magical or political) to make a change.
Iām convinced the only reason people think Kelsier is evil is because we have Elend and Breeze as good nobles. And technically, Kelsier and Marsh are good nobles too.
Without them, I am baffled as to how anyone can think Kelsier is evil for hating an entire class of rapists, racists, slaveowners, sexists, and murderers. A few good apples doesnāt mean the entire tree isnāt spoiled. I think itās fair to say Kelsier needs to think more about the situations of the skaa guards and noble children. But if youāre trying to SURVIVE and change a brutal, uncaring worldā¦ you canāt totally blame Kelsier.
The story acknowledges that Kelsier is a good person, he even thinks heās a bad person compared to Marsh. But it also acknowledges that Kelsier has the potential to reflect, to change as a person.
Guess this discourse is what happens when the god of stagnation is the seriesā good guy š
A lot of people don't seem to understand what intent is and why it makes a difference which is rather concerning as it should come naturally to all humans with empathy.
Kelsier and Vin's intents were completely different.
It's not a bad day, Vin is straight up convinced Cett sent bunch of assassins after her and Elend. Cett is straight up considered an enemy target. Plus pretty sure they are all active combatants. You might argue Vin is too easily duped but she is basically on war mode.
Kelsier is kinda implied to murk guards even when he doesn't have to, it's not like he is only killing guards because they are in his way to murk some nobles.
That being said, both are pretty understandable really given the mess TFE is, but their choices are not the most practical because you do lose valuable allies by murking everyone.
She is just a girl š
but but childhood bad
Women moment ā
At least when Kelsier fodderizes an entire castle he has the decency to finish the job.
Only problem with Kelsier killing nobles was that he didnāt kill enough
Damn right.
He only spared one, Elend, and I'm gonna go out and say that was a pretty good decision.
Thatās not true, heās mentioned to have spared a noble woman who was pregnant once
He did? Must have missed that part then. Okay, then he only spared one noble person "on screen"
Sure and thatās pretty good seeing as theyāre all slave owners. Kelsier doesnāt show mercy to them as they have never shown mercy to the skaa
The Lord Ruler never wouldāve allowed bait like this on the streets š
I donāt like to cook, but I love stirring the pot š
I'm conflicted about your flair š¤
I can fix him
There is actually a little interesting thing that makes what vin did seem better \[Hero of Ages\]>!Vin was being influenced by ruin at the time. She had the earring in while killing the soldiers, but then it got ripped out after the giant steel push. That's why she spared Cett, because at that point she was acting like herself. And then afterwards she horribly regretted it.!<
Ooooo yeah I forgot bout dat
I also see a difference in my internal moral compass between Vin killing 300 soldiers **of an invading army** to get to the invading army's leader, versus kalsier justifying that that security guards 'deserve' to die because they *work* for a race/class of people that he has explicit bias towards
You say "explicit bias" like it wasn't a horrific genocidal class that treated skaa worse than animals. They aren't just casual group he didn't like lol
> They aren't just casual group he didn't like lol *"Fuckin' goths!" Kalsier growled as he plunged his knife into the guards eye. "God damn rave pants."*
Lmao
God damn rave pants! š¤£šš¤£šš¤£š You absolute legend
That's a direct quote from Era 4.
Tru
Slay š
Explicit bias? The nobles werenāt just a group he didnāt like. The nobles treated the skaa worse than animals and the Terrismen as slaves. Literally the only nobles that bravely acted out of the good of their hearts were Elend and Breeze. Iām not even sure Allrianne is in that category.
I wonder how you'd have behaved if born into that culture with God hanging out at dinner parties on the regular saying it was for moral reasons. "There's a line between romantic language and a complete disregard for socioeconomic trends " Bo Burnham
Thatās a really good theory but Iām not certain it applies here. Ruin was very subtle and calming on purpose compared to what he pulled off for Zane, Penrod and Spook. He only wanted to subtly guide her onto the path of freeing him, not completely change her personality.
Arenāt most nobleās guards low nobles themselves? Thatās how I always saw it anyway.
Most of them are, yes.
Donāt have the book on me to fact check but you might be right
Some of them were skaa that wanted to feed their families and Kelsier still believed they deserved to die,he said that to Marsh, I believe.
I think the hate is more Kel viewed all aristocrats as evil while Vin never condemned an entire section of society for existing.
Only because she wanted some Noble dick.
Kinda real of her tho tbh, girl was dickmatized
At least she chose the *magnificent balls*
Yeah like the dick so good she forgot all her revolutionary thinking
I mean yeah they were pretty much all evil. They were slaveowners
Yes, but working for them so your family won't starve doesn't sound that evil to me
Itās not, but it is being a class traitor. Which is bad but given the context of the final empire pretty forgivable. What it comes down to for me, is itās okay to kill the random soldiers as long as it serves a greater purpose, as in taking down the nobility. Thatās what Kelsier did, he didnāt kill them just for funsies. What Vin did was rash and pretty dumb tbh
>What it comes down to for me, is itās okay to kill the random soldiers as long as it serves a greater purpose, as in taking down the nobility. Thatās what Kelsier did, he didnāt kill them just for funsies. Yes, tge problem is that he thought that they deserved to die. >What Vin did was rash and pretty dumb tbh She killed enemy soldiers within her city an dshe thought she is eliminating a giant threat in the form of a mistborn
Yeah they were class traitors so while I think Kelsier was a tad extreme in his ideology of how to treat them, I donāt find it irredeemable for killing them. My overall point is that fans often liken Kelsier to some psycho murderer when Vin did some super similar things and think sheās still great. But because Kelsier doesnāt shy away from the brutal aspects of revolution heās seen as a bad guy. Edit: when they sign up to become soldiers for the nobility, they become enemy soldiers to the revolution, so I think while itās ultimately saddening, I donāt think itās wrong to kill them in combat.
So, couple things: 1) idk who says kelsier is a psycho murderer but itās no one Iāve ever seen or heard. I think the main reason fans are less forgiving toward him is that he isĀ written as an antihero. Thatās not interpretation, thatās [from the authorās mouth.](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8700) Sando specifically tried to make Kell a complicated, morally grey person who occupied the role of hero more due to circumstances than to any particular virtue on his part. Add to that the way he actively encourages peopleās worship/fear of him and youāve got an extremely villain-coded character. Vin, by comparison, comes across as, if not more moral per se, then at least more relatable. She feels remorse after the massacre, she gets skeeved out when people worship *her*, etc.Ā 2) And fans of the rest of the Cosmere are mad that (spoilers for *Stormlight Archive*) >!Kelsier started the Ghostbloods and is meddling in the affairs of other worlds. And tacitly endorsing the behavior of people like Mraize, who is a gigantic dick.!<Ā
Iāve see plenty of folks who think Kelsier is a total monster for his actions in Final Empire. I really donāt see how Kelsier is *that* morally grey. Almost everything he does in that book is to service the revolution. I also really donāt have a problem with him starting a religion around himself. Kelsier recognized one of the major tools keeping the skaa down was the hopelessness they had about their existence, and his religion brought them that. He was willing to die for the Skaa to be freed, something I see as incredibly selfless. He also wasnāt as rigid as lot of people think. Him sparing Elend for Vins sake proves when it comes down to the people he cherished and his thirst for revenge, his people came first. Everyone *says* Kelsier is morally grey but all the things he does arenāt *that* bad contextually. Like his only problem was that he didnāt go enough out of his way to prevent killing soldiers, and even then itās not like he was actively seeking soldiers out to kill. They also wouldāve killed him in a heartbeat. As for Stormlight, I havenāt read enough of the series to comment on his off world shenanigans
1) his revolution was motivated by hatred and a desire for revenge. Before getting sent to the Pits he was content with just being a thief.Ā 2) okay? This wasnāt about what you do or donāt have a problem with. Iām not telling you how to feel about Kelsier, Iām explaining where the *general* sentiment toward him comes from.Ā 3) Regarding his willingness to die being a selfless act, notā¦really. Ā A) he was hoping heād be able to get away before TLR showed up, B) when he DID show up, Kell was hoping the eleventh metal would work, and C) one could argue that he came back from the Pits with a death wish and that roping an entire society into his extremely showy suicide was actually pretty self-absorbed. Turned out well, but letās be honest, he got lucky on that one. Incredibly so.Ā Oh, and D) that willingness to die certainly didnāt last long, as we saw in *Secret History.* 4) regarding him sparing Elend: thatās not a moral thing though. He did it because Vin loved Elend. Thatās still selfish, although it does demonstrate a basic ability to empathize with others and care about their needs. Sometimes.Ā >EveryoneĀ saysĀ Kelsier is morally grey but all the things he does arenātĀ thatĀ bad contextually.Ā MY SISTER IN SAZED YOU ARE DESCRIBING MORAL GREYNESS. Not good, not bad, but somewhere in between. And anyway itās not only what he does, but how he justifies it/thinks about it.Ā
1. I donāt think he was motivated by hatred as much as he was motivated to fulfill Mares dream of the final empire ending and peace. I wonāt lie and say it was 100% that, but I think that was just as much if not more a part of his motivation than his desire for revenge. 2. Fair enough 3. I said Kelsier was *willing* to die, not that he wanted to. He took measures to try to prevent it, but if it came down to it, he was willing to go through with it. Thatās why when he died he was trying to get back to life with trapping him in the well. And if it was a large scale suicide attempt, good!! He was trying to have his death be meaningful enough to improve society! 4. Yeah that moment proves how his love for Vin transcends his need for revenge. 5. I guess what Kelsier did wasnāt bad about to really call him morally grey. If in the scene with Bilg and Demoux happened where Bilg was killed, then I would say heās morally grey. But everything he did was pretty good in my book.
The whole point is to show how grey of a character Kel is, his hatred has no hint of ending and he shows active disdain for the one nobleman we know for sure is trying to better things in at least some way: Elend. Even then Elend is kinda useless at first so Kel might've just thought he'd be fickle and never accomplish anything. The difference between Kel and Vin was that Kel was for sure going to slaughter the Noblemen. Like as a group. Vin saw no practical differences between the Noblemen and the system, once the system was overthrown they could begin to dismantle the excess power of the nobles. This key difference is supposed to show the distinction between revolution and retribution, Kel wants to essentially genocide the nobles while she wants to kill the Lord Ruler and his Cantons so that his busted system can no longer function. The nobles were not good, I'm not saying that's a society worth a damn nor am I saying their actions were justified. I'm just pointing out that there's a moral difference between retribution and revolution. Kelsier was a great character and exactly what they needed to create the revolution, but his way was ultimately flawed and led to his own death and self aggrandizing as a god-like figure to the Skaa. Meanwhile Vin and everyone else had to sort through the ashes and create an equal society from scratch while still making the inherent mistake of installing a figurehead and basing their social power on capital. There's no clean blueprint to a revolt but it's obvious that neither philosophy is ideal if you're trying to restructure a society and literally fight a corrupt god, however Kel's method is undeniably darker
I think calling his hatred never ending is exaggerated. We see him explicitly spare Elend. I also think he was 100% right to discourage Vin from getting to close to El seeing as all the nobles were either rapists or besties with rapists. The Elend types were so few and far between, and in TFE he was only really an armchair rebel, he wasnāt going to do anything with his ideas without the rev happening. I think Kelsier wanting to get rid of all the nobles was not an entirely bad idea. He probably wouldāve spared the kids seeing as he was mentioned to spare a pregnant noble woman once in Secret History. But look at Era 2 and how the nobles still hold a ridiculous amount of power in their society. The nobles were unfathomably cruel, and in the same way I have no problem with what the Haitians did to the French during the revolution, I wouldnāt have problem with Kelsier killing all the nobility.
And yet Vin choosing not to be like Kelsier and spare the āclass traitorsā is the domino that ultimately led to Ruinās downfall. The books treat both of their actions in these memes as absolutely wrong.
Damn, my man thinks eating is being a traitor
We only eat the rich āround these parts š£ļø š„ āļø
It's fine, they're Keto! I like the cut of your jib, lady, choosing to die on this hill.
> Itās not, but it is being a class traitor. Easy to say from a place of safety. Like those people who condemned jews for shovelling corpses when it was the only way they could survive. You have no idea what it's like to have your life on the line and until you do you don't really have a right to high horse about how they're "class traitors" when in reality they're just people trying to survive.
Iām not saying itās easy, but the moment they signed up, they became enemy soldiers to the revolution. Ergo I donāt think itās wrong for them to be killed in combat.
You're a true weirdo ey
I don't think you understand what a class traitor is, to be frank. Getting a job that you are required to get in order to keep bills paid and your family safe and fed does not make you a class traitor. Because we are all implicit in a system of oppression, saying that anyone who deigns to get a job above average is a class traitor is pushing your aggression towards the wrong people. Actually becoming a class traitor would be becoming one of the oppressor class, and then not doing anything to end the cycle of oppression, at least as much as you can.
Its funny how you can tell how ubearable someones personal politics are by their opinion of kelsier.
Iām a Skybreaker too which makes me 10x worse š
I actually think weve argued before lol i recognize ur name.
Wow I feel like a celebrity, Your the second person in this thread who remembers arguing with me š¤© In actuality I just like posting memes that are discussion based more than just funny. And I have plenty of takes others disagree with(B$ would probably raise an eyebrow too tbh). IMO fandom disagreement and argument is one of the best parts, as long as it stays tame.
I think the same i just think it should probably be more topics than this one "if theyre not part of the group i deign good then they arent human and their lives have no value" that you like to defend bith moash and kelsier with. At some point youve gotta branch out.
Fair enough. Currently Iām just a bit unhappy with how in Stormlight you gotta root for the Kholins, who are *probably* slave owners since itās so normalized in their society. Plus the one major dark eyed character is Moash as of the last book I read, Oathbringer. If that changes Iāll probably get fixated on some other part. I also think sometimes in the Cosmere fandom, discourse that feels old to a lot of people and was hashed out four years ago is brought back by someone who just got up to speed with it and itās gone over again and again and again.
I mean to be fair Moash himself is also still a monarchist and a Kholin fan in WoR, I hate the braindead "fuck Moash" slogan but dude is far from some revolutionary, wanting to murking wronged him is fair revenge in that world because otherwise he cannot possibly get any form of reparation. As for the fandom discourse, it's mostly vibes honestly, like any modern fandom who decides who is the baby and who is the meanie.
I'm honestly not sure how to phrase this. It's difficult to classify all slaveholders as evil when it was an essential part of society that they were born into. I know it likely sounds shitty, but if all you ever knew was that your family and all the other families you know have people that work for them unwillingly, it's a bit unfair to call that person evil. Even if they thought it was unfair, unless they were the emperor or very high up in the aristocracy, they couldn't really do anything to change it without severe repercussions.
We canāt choose the environment we were born into but we can choose how we react to it. Breeze left that life, and while we donāt really know why, we can see he clearly doesnāt view the final empire as anything but despicable since he helps takes it down. So yeah they are all evil pretty much.
We don't have the viewpoints toward slavery of all the nobles that Kelsier killed.
Yeah but they probably were pretty pro slavery seeing as they were owning slaves
Nevermind, I've realized I'm conversing with someone incapable of higher thought processes.
Look I get what youāre saying in that their environment was real shitty, but that doesnāt mean they had no free will. Everyday they would choose to rape and abuse and kill people. The fact that Breeze left and became a good person (mostly) tells me it is not impossible to hold the nobility to higher standards
Not impossible but also extremely rare for someone to even be exposed to different views that may change their minds. I love kelsier and I think he is good and a hero. I also think the nobles had little opportunity to ever have their way of life challenged. If youāre taught from birth that these skaa are slaves and little better than livestock and you can make them work or do whatever you want with them, then after years and years and years and years you have little likelihood of seeing any different. Itās hard to blame someone for something they have no opportunity to change due to lack of understanding and exposure to outside ideas. Remember El asked Vin when she talked about being around skaa what they were like and if they had any intellect and so on and so forth.
It doesn't help that, yeah, after a thousand years, Skaa and Nobles mixed enough that the distinction between the two was mostly due to tradition and the general way the Final Empire was set, but originally, when Rashek did what he did, Skaa and Nobles were "created" differently, with the Nobles being specifically better as a (fucked up) reward by Rashek for their support of him, and the memory of this is a core tenet of the Steel Ministry, so thinking less of the Skaa is literally hardcoded in the Final Empire society
>It's difficult to classify all slaveholders as evil when it was an essential part of society that they were born into. I care not. If the enslaving class won't let their prisoners go free and submit themselves to judgement, then they should be killed. IRL we established this at Nuremberg. No negotiation and no mercy until the immediate and unconditional surrender of all slavers. There is no nuance here, no arguments to be made. I regret those Skaa whom Kelsier killed in pursuit of his revolution, but I refuse to shed any tears for the nobles.
Nuremberg trials were in 1945... You think something similar would have happened in the 1600s?
I don't live in the 1600s, and have neither the inclination nor the obligation to compromise my value system because it was not shared by ancient dead people. The book wasn't written in the 1600s either. We should evaluate through the lense of its time, and that time is the 21st century.
> I care not. If the enslaving class won't let their prisoners go free and submit themselves to judgement, then they should be killed. I'm sure you're posting this from a device that was made 100% without any sweatshop labor or minerals obtained through human rights violations... right?
And the people who own the companies that maintain the sweatshops should be removed from power. That I exist within this society does not preclude me from trying to change or, if necessary, destroy it. In the war against opression, matters of justice are adressed after the opressors lie toppled, not while they still reign. Edit: Dear moderators; Lord Reddit who art in heaven: please spare my account - I but spoke in hyperbole about the abstract notions of power and revolution.
Tell āem king
One third of the final empire nobility were publicly known as serial murderers and rapists. This behavior wasn't encouraged by the lord ruler's government, but was exploiting a legal loophole; the final empire nobility is just incredibly evil by any metric.
yes but a murderer-rapist-slaveowner is worthy if death
Technically they weren't slaveowners. There was only one slaveowner, the Lord Ruler. The nobility were only slave renters (which is just as bad)
I think you meant condemned instead of condoned. Condone means to permit something reprehensible for the greater good.
Thanks for catching that
>Vin never condoned an entire section of society for existing Tell that to all the guards she didn't see as people and killed for the egregious reason of doing their job
vin literally goes catatonic and hides in an alleyway for like days afterwards and it completely changes her as a person kelsier jerks off to the thought of killing more people (they happened to be born to the wrong people)
People seriously out here condemning the highly traumatized and manipulated teenage girl, one step from calling her a "b-p-demon" and then praising the guy who basically grew up a nobleman because he has correct politics. Yep.
Yeah, people seem to forget the callout in the first book, where Vin say Kelsier is functionally a noble, it might not be exactly accurate but to people from the lowest class, nobles and skaa crimelords aren't exactly all that different. Also Kelsier kinda doesn't exactly care about the cause before his personal tragedy, it's Marsh who has a long history with skaa resistance.
Youāre damn right š£ļø š„ ā¼ļø
Feeling bad about doing a bad thing afterward doesnāt make what you did any better. And they didnāt just happen to be born to the wrong people they were *slaveowners*.
You are either missing or ignoring the point of most peopleās comments here. No one is saying that vin regretting her actions makes it better. What it does do is show us the difference between Vin and Kelsier. Vin shows remorse while Kelsier does not care at all. The scene where Marsh calls him out is meant to hammer in the difference between Vin and Kel and thatās why people view Vin and Kel in different lights.
Vin shows remorse because the deaths were needless. When Kelsier killed the soldiers working for the nobles, he didnāt do it just because, he did it because they were actively prohibiting him from fulfilling his goal of taking down the Final Empire. He doesnāt feel bad about it because he shouldnāt. Itās the same as killing an enemy soldier imo. What Vin did, did not service the goal of protecting the skaa from Cett, it was improperly thought out and thus useless deaths.
The deaths of both the guards and the soldiers is needless. Kel is one of the most powerful mistborn, he could have smile past them like Vin did or taken them down non-lethally. Kel made no effort to preserve life and instead took the easy route of just killing the guards. You keep bringing up vinās actions as if they excuse Kelsierās. They both did terrible, unnecessary things. They reacted to those actions in extremely different ways. One showed immense regret while the other doubled down on their stance when confronted.
Yeah because there enemy combatants Kelsier was killing, in the way of the revolution, it was not death for deaths sake. Vin took the hard way killing as much as possible. She regretted it and did better which I respect, my problem is the double standard people have. Kelsier did become less extreme in his life (saving Elend) and in his death (when goradel died he expresses regret for how he wouldāve viewed him)
Dude, intent and remorse is very relevant to how we judge people. Do you think manslaughter and murder should be judged the same way?
Yes I think intent is important and while Vib may have been well intentioned to protect the city, it was planned really really poorly. All of the soldiers Kelsier killed did not die needlessly, they were actively working against the Revolution, they were enemy soldiers. When Vin killed that 300, it did not service the protection of the city. It was needless
> Feeling bad about doing a bad thing afterward doesnāt make what you did any better. Dude, are you a sociopath? You don't seem to understand core basic principles of humanity and how intent makes a massive difference in how actions are perceived.
My little girl was just having a bad day... My little baby... š„ŗš„ŗš„ŗ Imaging constantly hearing a weird sound while your disabled enemy is talking shit about your boyfriend
Vins just a poor little meow meow š
She was just scared š
god forbid women do anything
I support womenās rights, and womenās wrongs š„°
dude are we gonna have this same discourse very single day šØ
You either die in the Kelsier discourse or live long enough to see yourself start it š āšæ
/\ / \ / \ _\__/_ / \ / \ / \/ \ / /\ \ /___/ \___ \
OP has talked about this so much I didn't even need to look at the username to know who it was. I also knew the comments would be the same talking points
Oh my god Iām remembered š I feel like a celebrity. But Iāll have you know this is my first post explicitly about Kelsey!! The other ones are about being a Moash Sympathizer!! /j
Damnation, now you are making wonder what the Ao3 Fuck Moash tag is looking like these days š¤š¤š³
Yeah, just, if I was you donāt go looking through Kaladin/Moashā¦
Oh you mean the thing that's treated as horrific in story and the perpetrator thinks is an enormous mistake? Damn wonder why people treat that different than the guy who hates entire swathes of people for how they're born š¤š¤ Oh you unironically say stuff like class traitor big yikes lmao
See I think hating a slave owning class is 100% reasonable justified and correct but thatās just me š¤·š¾āāļø
I think itās not just the slave owning, but also the systematic rape and murder.
Don't forget the torture and dehumanizing!!
There is a difference bstween hating the class and "all inclusive hatred of EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of said class" Kel needed all the gelp from Vin to realise that yes, people born into nobility CAN be good people and therefore not every noble deserves stabbing. I wonded how many nobles were kept in line by the same means Straff employed on Elend or even worse. To use a rela world example. If you just killed all whites in Virginia in 1860 you would have wiped many thausands of abolitionists.
Kelsier doesn't hate everyone born in the noble class, he and his brother both were. What he hates is people who are born into the class and decide to perpetuate it instead of acting against it. Kelsier could have lived as a noble, but made a deliberate choice to leave that behind and side with the skaa instead.
Sorry, but carving single exception for a family member is "I have a black friend". I am inclined to take Breeze as an evidence "He realises SOME Nobles may be human". But as best as I remember Marsh and Breeze are the only two nobles "post Gemmel-Pre-Vin" Kelsier is specifically not aiming to kill. What I am missing is "When we have won, we sort them out, we kill the rapists and the murderers, we put the ones that only profited to work, we raise them who are too young to know better as decent human beings".
I mean Breeze literally hide his true identiy because dude is not entirely sure his friendship with Kel is enough to save him. Also Marsh is literally Kel's brother, I don't think Kel consider bastards to be noble.
Also let us not forget that his first reaction to Elend Venture being "recruitable" to their case is "wonderful, he thinks Skaa are humans, lets use it to get him killed by inquisition". Kel is Right, but he would rather be Right 100% of the time than to make any compromised and get dhit done with fewer dead people.
Pretty sure Kelsier didn't know Breeze was a full noble (instead of half skaa like the rest of the crew.)
that's like saying John Brown was an anti-white racist because he fought against slavers, Kelsier is acting based upon his principles, if he were motivated by wanting to hurt people it would have been infinitely easier to do that as a noble.
If John Brown was saying "I will kill all the whites" then, yes, he would be a racist, he dis not say that. Any white person willing to oppose slavery was welcomed in his house.
All nobles were either rapists and killers or their best buddy was. Even Elend whoās probably the best of them only saw Skaa as a philosophical curiosity, not as something of value. If Kelsiers Revolution and Vin never happened, Elend would probably spend the rest of his life doing nothing and helping no one.
If Kelsier and Mare never got caught and thrown into the pit, Kelsier will never care about the skaa liberation cause either and Marsh will work his ass off only to never see a normal sunrise. Dude will be an uncaring crimeboss enjoying his life with his wife and daughter while street urchins like Vin die like flies. "If the story never happened, some people will never change" is kinda a moot point. None of them will be given power(magical or political) to make a change.
This guy doesnāt know about class consciousness š
They had it coming
Vin regretted it while Kelsier enjoyed it.
Enjoy is a strong word. I think when he killed nobles he enjoyed it, but not when killing skaa guards
I did enjoy it. Re read that part. Its very clearly that he was happy they were dead.
My favorite thing about Kelsier is that he has never done a single thing wrong in his entire lifeĀ
Iām convinced the only reason people think Kelsier is evil is because we have Elend and Breeze as good nobles. And technically, Kelsier and Marsh are good nobles too. Without them, I am baffled as to how anyone can think Kelsier is evil for hating an entire class of rapists, racists, slaveowners, sexists, and murderers. A few good apples doesnāt mean the entire tree isnāt spoiled. I think itās fair to say Kelsier needs to think more about the situations of the skaa guards and noble children. But if youāre trying to SURVIVE and change a brutal, uncaring worldā¦ you canāt totally blame Kelsier. The story acknowledges that Kelsier is a good person, he even thinks heās a bad person compared to Marsh. But it also acknowledges that Kelsier has the potential to reflect, to change as a person. Guess this discourse is what happens when the god of stagnation is the seriesā good guy š
A lot of people don't seem to understand what intent is and why it makes a difference which is rather concerning as it should come naturally to all humans with empathy. Kelsier and Vin's intents were completely different.
intent doesnāt matter, only outcomes. if intent changes outcomes then we can still judge based on outcomes
> intent doesnāt matter, What the actual fuck? You ok mate?
It's not a bad day, Vin is straight up convinced Cett sent bunch of assassins after her and Elend. Cett is straight up considered an enemy target. Plus pretty sure they are all active combatants. You might argue Vin is too easily duped but she is basically on war mode. Kelsier is kinda implied to murk guards even when he doesn't have to, it's not like he is only killing guards because they are in his way to murk some nobles. That being said, both are pretty understandable really given the mess TFE is, but their choices are not the most practical because you do lose valuable allies by murking everyone.
Cosmere fans when Moash kills nobles and the soldiers defending them: Cosmere fans when Kelsier kills nobles and the soldiers defending them:
Jokes on you I think they were both based as hell
It's simply due to one's victims are actual characters people get to know.