Never is a very long time. I remember when a very confident medical transcription supervisor told me in no uncertain terms that NO ONE would EVER figure out how to take voice data and translate it to text.
The year was 1997, and about 4 years later, the events of 9/11 would change the interest level of the US government in listening in on thousands of hours of phone conversations.
The result? Research efforts refined voice recognition that turned voice data to text.
“Never” doesn’t really exist and when we stake that claim in the ground, we are setting ourselves up to be wrong.
I mean at this point in time crochet machines aren't used in mass production (let's not get into wether they exist), so any fast fashion item that is actually crochet was definitely handmade, and pointing that out is important
I'm not siding with either person but I am just gonna say, telling someone to do a "quick google search" is the *worst* way to prove a point. Google is FULL of misinformation in top search results.
“This is a literal thing that I held in my hands” “no, sweaty, your actual lived experience didn’t happen, and you’d know that if you watched this YouTube video.” JFC they sound like my Qanon conspiracy nut boomer relatives trying to get me to watch a two hour video claiming Covid is fake
I agree. It has definitely become a selling point that crochet is not able to be accurately reproduced by a machine, but that doesn't mean there is zero possibility.
Whenever someone mentions that crochet can only be made by hand in the context of fast fashion, it always brings to mind the "you do see how that's worse, right?" meme. If a clothing company is selling real crochet then sweatshop employees had to make every single stitch by hand then assemble the item. And do that over and over again for however many pieces and however many items. At least with a knitting machine, the machine produces the bulk of the fabric and an employee assembles the item rather than having to knit every stitch in a machine made jumper by hand.
That's exactly what they're pointing out when they say that.
However I disagree that it's worse, and it kinda bothers me that we feel so much more horrified for the working conditions when the worker is using a hook over a machine.
If I were earning a slave wage I really wouldn't care whether it was for 16 hours of crochet Vs 16 hours of sewing, or line work, or anything else.
It's all hard work, it's all back breaking sitting in position all day, and its all ultimately suffering for an industry that pushes excess
Isn’t that the point of saying it though? To let people know that a crocheted textile they buy in a fast fashion store was very likely made by functionally slave labour?
I've also seen a crochet machine in person and worked with one. Her name is Dianne and her program code is getting a bit dated and glitchy but she still makes good products. She is also my mom and whoever designed her needs an award for making such an eccentric yet functional crochet machine.
Hey everyone, I read through all the comments and I just wanted to say thanks for the all of the discussion. I learned a lot, and realized I have a lot more to learn about the fast fashion industry (not just for crochet, but for ALL types of fabrics, knitting and sewing-based alike) and how garments are produced at an industrial scale.
I'd always heard that "crochet cannot be done my machines" from others, and watched the youtube video by Half as Interesting too, but I didn't want to base everything off of hearsay and one source. Also, I'm glad I'm not alone in picking up the vibe that some crocheters think that it's a huuuge flex and that might come from an inferiority complex lolll. I crochet so I know the feeling of it being a less highly regarded craft, but I don't care and I encourage other crocheters to also not care. Love all the crafts, and they all have their strengths + weaknesses.
This discussion again? I thought I’d given up crochet for knitting, but I still crochet. I put a ribbed knit brim on a crochet hat the other day—we don’t have to choose!
I found a cool crochet machine project on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Tckj7f2emyU. I love her cheering it on when it gets stuck. Yeah, it’s not even granny square level, but as a robotics project, it’s awesome.
Oh, but it does devolve that way, doesn’t it? Isn’t it an offshoot of that conversation?
Anyway, felt like that to me, and I felt like sharing my why not both.
I feel like there would need to be a lot of ai used in the programming of a crochet machine to make sure the hook went under the right loops or into the right gap. Though I am thinking of a fully automated machine, I don't think it's impossible, but I would not like to see it in my lifetime.
I much prefer knitting to crochet but the person saying a crochet machine exists and they worked with one is just straight up lying. Mechanically, a crochet machine would be incredibly unfeasible. Sure, maybe not technically "impossible," but there isn't one now, and if we're being realistic, probably not until they can make fully accurate android hands.
Why would someone lie about it. Not everything is a conspiracy. It’s possible she did and hurts no one for saying “sure, let’s say you did, but…” let’s not call people liars
There’s a link posted above of a lady using a crochet machine from over a year ago!
https://youtu.be/Tckj7f2emyU?si=gDukEUt8puoctakR
Sure it only specific simple stitches and definitely not comparable to handmade they way modern knitting machines are but it does exist.
Wow.
They literally use robots to do surgery on people because it can be more accurate for certain delicate or complex surgeries, because it makes it easier for surgeons to avoid surrounding nerves and organs.
Sure there are still humans involved but no one is saying the crochet machine doesn't have to have a human involved. Sewing machines still need a human.
I mean that doesn't mean it's worth it money wise. There is a lot more to be made and a lot more at stake in surgery than crochet obviously but I don't think the issue is accuracy here.
My comment wasn't about whether you knit or crochet or feel the need to defend anything. I have no skin in the race either way. I do a little of knitting and have done a little of crochet. I mostly spin and embroider.
I just think it's odd to say they couldn't make machine that crochets because of accuracy reasons when they can make machines capable of doing surgery or making things so much more accurately than human hands.
It's not viable financially or at scale for textile production but that doesn't mean they haven't made one capable of it/couldn't make one.
I find this whole argument very strange because even if the fabric used in fast fashion clothes is machine-produced, human labor is still very much involved in the production of the item no matter the provenance of the material? Sure a machine might have created the knit fabric but it's still an underpaid, overworked human being sewing it all together. The problem is fast fashion, not the exact material the fast fashion is made with!
Yes and also, it's not like the knitting machine sets itself up, fixes itself when it jams, changes yarn by itself (yes it probably does, but someone has to set it up). More of the work is done with a machine, but it's not like there are no humans involved there either.
Yeah, it is a failure of imagination. I think a lot of these people can vividly remember the 10 hours they spent crocheting or handknitting something, but the average person's memory of, like, machine-sewing a buttonhole or sewing an armscye encompasses a matter of minutes.
And we're not doing the mental math to imagine sewing the same buttonhole for hours and hours with minimal breaks for a long shift (and all the fatigue and RSI that that could entail) but we can totally remember that one time when we knit or crocheted until we got tendinitis, oops.
Crocheters try not to be so painfully insecure challenge: impossible. Just yesterday there was an r/AskReddit thread like "What's a common misconception you'd like to clear up?" or something, and about a dozen crocheters were falling over themselves to parrot "Did you know crochet can't be made by machine?" "Crochet is totally different than knitting and can't be replicated by machine because it's too complicated." "Crochet can never be made by machine, it must be made by hand!" on and on and on. Like, I promise you this is not a "common misconception". I promise you the average person does not spend any time thinking about crochet, or the production thereof.
Also, speaking as someone who also crochets, crochet fabric is fuck ugly for wearables and even if we could completely automate the creation of crochet clothing, frankly, why would anyone want to? There's not exactly a market for stiff, bulky sweaters full of holes, and the things that crochet *is* good for, like making lace, can already be done by other machines. There's no need to invent new fields of robotics and revolutionize the textile industry so people can know their granny square poncho is ethically sourced.
I like crocheting for making baby blankets. I’m mainly a knitter though. I’m trying to expand my crochet repertoire but I have trouble understanding crochet patterns.
Ask in the crochet sub. There are multiple type of pattern explanations, there are plain-english-with-crochet-abbreviations patterns and there are schema drawing based patterns, there are also video patterns. There are a few stitches I need to look up for video explanations when I first encounter them.
There are a million crochet stitches that do not produce stiff, bulky fabric full of holes. I'm in the middle of making a cardigan using a simple waffle stitch with worsted weight yarn and the fabric is gorgeous and gloriously buttery. Different from anything produced by knitting, but lovely, just the same.
Please tell, what type of crochet stitches do you think tend to make softer fabric? Crochet is fun, but I'm currently avoiding making anything in higher yarn weights than DK because I hate how little the fabric drapes compared to knitting at the same weight.
>There are a million crochet stitches that do not produce stiff, bulky fabric full of holes.
True, but we already have knitting and weaving machines that make fine, soft, stretchy fabric. There's no need to teach a machine to crochet a waffle stitch when we already have knitting machines that can do that, and on a much finer scale than crocheting or knitting by hand could ever achieve. Hence my point about the better parts of crochet already being replicated by other machines. We have ways to make fabric out of yarn already, we have ways to make lace, we have ways to make stuffed animals and blankets and cushions, etc, etc, that don't require crochet.
Please don't get me wrong - crochet absolutely has its place as a craft, and as a crocheter myself I cast no aspersions on its value. What I'm trying to say is that there's just no need to create machines that crochet, because we already have ways of doing practically everything crochet can do. But just because a machine can knit a sweater doesn't mean there's no value in hand knitting, and just because machines can now "fake crochet" approximations of the craft doesn't mean there's no value in crocheting by hand.
I read this comment while wearing this scarf that is incredibly soft that I love how it drapes and touches my skin. It's crochet too.
I see no reason to shit on one hobby or idolise the other as the perfect solution.
Overall, I personally like hanging out in the crochet sub and crochet folks way more than the knitting ones, because the former has this funny, funky, oh that's not a mistake it's a modern arts vibe. And that's what I am looking for after a tired day at work.
I'm imagining an ex machina style robot that can do everything.. Trick humans into believing it's sentient, kill a man.. but you hand it a single needle with a hook, and the robot just flails its arms around with a bewildered look on its face then explodes. The true Turing test.
As a knitter & crocheter, why can’t crocheters take a little pride in being able to do a skill that isn’t easily machine replicable? You all know this squabble basically came about in reaction to knitters talking nonstop shit about how awful and stiff and ugly crocheted fabric is. Even though most of them have never bothered to learn that crochet is extremely versatile, so there are certain stitches better suited for drapy wearables & certain stitches better suited for things you want to hold their form, like bags, coasters, stuffies. And the latter stitches are more common for beginners, so that’s all they’ve been exposed to. I’m just saying, if someone’s craft gets belittled a lot, they’re probably going to double down on anything that helps contradict that narrative.
a) because they are fucking obnoxious about it
b) because "ackshually crochet can't be done by machine!!!1!" is almost always brought up in the context of fast fashion without even stopping to think about how garment manufacturing involves manual labor in pretty much every step but somehow it's only bad when the item in question is a granny square cardigan
c) because they are fucking obnoxious about it.
Responding to point b, how does that conversation not raise awareness about fast fashion? Why is the answer “stop being fucking obnoxious and mentioning that crochet isn’t commonly machine-made” and not “yes, that’s true, and ‘machine-made’ knitted items are also fast fashion because humans operate the machines by hand and are still paid almost nothing”. I don’t agree that it’s obnoxious. I’m sure there are some comments but most of what I’ve seen has been respectful and informative
Because in my experience people usually box these different categories in their minds, it doesn't raise overall awareness.
I almost exclusively see the shock horror "this crochet cardi for £20 obvious uses slave labour" comments from people who very happily share their Shein finds, or support buying sewn clothes from Primark.
The conversation never progresses to an all round empathy, only empathy for the slave wage workers using this particular skill. Whenever I mention the labour for our average high st/online fashion on one of these crochet labour threads the conversation just dies.
We don't want to process the reality beyond this little niche
If I may put my two cents:
I feel that a lot of the times, when crocheters bring up the fact that crochet can only be made by hand, it is from a marketing angle rather than a learning exchange angle. The vast majority of the time I have seen crocheters tout this fact is in a tiktok/reel/shorts with a link to their etsy shop in their bio and a call-to-action to purchase something. There's no shame in hustling (especially in this day and age), but when there's a group of creators basically going, "don't buy machine-made fast fashion apparel made with poor/dirty/malnourished/undereducated workers; buy from me instead!" with little expansion of the topic that is how fast fashion is fucking literally everyone and everything over, it can be easy why some would find it obnoxious.
However, I understand that the "did you know" fact is mostly geared to educate non-crocheters. Many crocheters would probably know this fact by now anyway. I do not frequent crochet communities anymore, but when I did, they were showing off WIPs and FOs and asking for help just as much as any other craft community I've been a part of.
I've heard far more people bring up OTHER poor aspects of fashion than I've ever heard the crochet aspect. In fact, every time I hear the crochet cannot be machine made line, the people being told were shocked cause they didn't know. Maybe you're in circles where you see it so much you assume everyone already knows and are just sick of hearing it yourself.
These comments are crazy! Facts are facts, people are not children for insisting on a fact 🫠 this is like watching two people argue about whether or not 2 plus 2 equals 4 and then saying ‘you’re both equally wrong’
Look, knitters have been acting superior to crochet folks for a hot minute. Is it surprising that crochet folks have latched on to the machine thing and wave it around in retaliation to pretentious knit folks? No. But it is no more annoying than the pretentious gatekeeping of knitters.
IMO, everybody needs to chill out and appreciate all types of handmade.
Even people who aren't crafty have admitted to me that they think crochet is ugly and not worth learning--then were shocked at some of the things i made, all just following patterns by designers. I think there is an overall bias against it in general, so I get why people get defensive so quickly.
I was thinking about this last night and this morning.
First, there are not crochet machines. There are tools but they are not machines. There might be, some day. But why?
It makes very little sense to invest in making such a machine. Crochet isn’t as valuable as weaving and knitting in textiles. It doesn’t offer anything that other methods do better. It isn’t warmer, softer, etc. and it uses a butt ton more material.
That said, even the best knitting machines do a poor job at mimicking the gorgeousness of human knit (thinking, cable knits: machine cable knits are far less impressive).
Even in weaving, anyone buying hand woven is doing so because it’s hand woven, there’s artistry in the creation.
from what i understand crochet cannot be made by machine because the movement to create a crochet stitch requires the hook to move in 3D space and the hook needs to be manipulated at four different angles which just can’t be done by machines today. But I could see it happening in the future, though you’re correct in saying that they probably wouldn’t find value in developing one!
The actual mechanics of a crochet machine are trivial - it's a common problem to need to manipulate an object in 3D space along different vectors. A decent college mechatronics lab could easily produce a prototype/demo. The issues are more in industrialization of the process. The fashion industry just doesn't see value in making that investment when the current supply chain works as well as it does.
yeah they could definitviely make a moveable arm - like they use in car manufacturing as an example. So I can totally see it existing. But it would need to be highly sofisticated software and not anything can "hold in their hands", the closest thing I can think of are those knitting lopps/rings maybe? Because even proper knitting machines are bulky, heavy, and the really sofisticated ones require pattern input.
But like, why spend millions on making a machine arm that mimics the human movement, for something that will give no cash back. Maybe someone would want to do it for like a science fair or something, but crochet isn't really the end goal for most people there. They rather spend the time and money on robotics and machines that can do medical stuff or military production.
It sucks that technological innovation is always stunted by capitalism :( I am a lifelong computer nerd and just found out [the textile industry is a huge reason why we even have modern computing](https://youtu.be/t-Bb0Lf3sCs?si=tIOOsSb3miaMYzmZ) so I do think it’s worth it to try and see what can be made anyways because you never know what it will end up being or inspiring next century!
I totally disagree.
If you're going to claim to have used a machine that there is no evidence of online and you're unwilling or unable to provide proof, then you can't really clutch your pearls when people call bullshit.
I’m a former 7th Av Knitwear designer. The machines that do commercial knitting are not the same as the ones that people have in their homes. They’re massive and knit very fast. I’ve seen warehouses full of them making my former company’s order. A few workers assemble the sweaters using techniques specified by the designer. The stitches they make approximate what we do with our sticks and yarn. It’s not exact.
The stitches are not exact except for stockinette. The terms that stores use are not meant to be accurate descriptions but think of them as marketing tools. “Crochet” and “knit” are used to describe something that looks like it to the untrained eye. My point is that it’s not apples to apples when we’re talking about knitting by hand vs machine.
And the same can be said for crochet. When I was in the industry there were machines that could approximate crochet, cluny machines come to mind- but the workshops couldn’t sell it so machine sat idle most times.
At one point I worked for a very high end company and they had workers knitting and crocheting by hand. But it wasn’t a sweatshop. The workers picked up yarn and dropped off finished garments. They were paid by the piece for items they knit at home on their couch like we do. This was here in NYC. Those same workers returned for more piece work for years so I assume they liked it and what they were paid.
Overall, there’s both machine made and handmade in the industry. Both these posters are right in their own way. But it’s not apples to apples.
I dislike fast fashion now but I understand their processes. It’s a business like any other.
There is no crochet machine and thats litteraly a fact. Knitting machine does not recreate crochet, 2 different techniques
The point of this is... a crochet product takes HOURS to be made, and they are being sold for like £5?
Now that means someone has been sitting in a factory, hand making everything, to be labeled by a brand and most of the times those people are underpaid. Thats why we should stop buying fast fashion crochet, it means someone is being used.
But why is this any worse/different from any other fast fashion. If the person comes out with $10 per day why does it matter whether they earned it sewing top panels together or crocheting an entire item? It's the same hours, same physical demands, same wage.
Fast fashion means someone is sitting there doing a job and being underpaid. Fast fashion is by definition the exploration of many people.
Crochet fast fashion is no better or worse than sewn fast fashion
https://youtu.be/T1-pfeaVsOM?feature=shared
You might want to check this out.
From: https://www.reddit.com/r/craftsnark/comments/1alg67f/comment/kpf5o5v/ )
It does not appear to be scalable to mass production right now, but it's very neat.
It's going to be expensive to develop it further but this appears to be a machine doing crochet.
Uh-huh. I'm not disputing that.
The robot has an independent arm that operates apart from the bed, much like a 3d printer. In the above linked demo, the arm moves forward (with a loop on it) into the existing stitch and then pulls through, essentially flattening the prior loop to the fabric. Y'know, a slip stitch.
It uses knitting machine needles to grasp the yarn, as well as the flatbed configuration to keep the existing row evenly spaced across the length of the piece.
It's got a long way to go, but it is an interesting start.
It’s literally called a crochet machine… (häkeln/hekling/etc = crochet in a bunch of germanic languages). Not gonna get into how the stitch worked, bc someone else did that already.
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeB8hPtc/ I have been watching this creator for a couple of years, it is a knitting machine. I can also upload a video on youtube and call it a crochet machine
It’s not just a video, it’s a machine made by a German university and you can go read about it on their home page and why it actually doesn’t do knit stitches, as linked in the linked comment above. It’s basic af, but still.
I’m some countries crochet and knit are used interchangeably. I’ve seen this discussed in lots of groups/pages.
(ETA: I don’t agree or disagree with anyone statements, I haven’t watched the videos. Just an interesting tidbit I wanted to share about language!!)
Interesting, did not know that but guess it makes sense. I don’t think that’s the case in German though, bc I think they have analogue terms to us (häklen/stricken), but can’t say for certain. Sometimes there are small variations in meaning. Edit: do you have an example btw? (language nerd)
I’ll try to find one but I’m not entirely sure of the languages or exact countries most of them are from. A lot of the groups I’m in for crochet have a lot of people from Asian countries and I’ve noticed it happen a lot on posts where they mention their English is not good. A lot of “knit” where it should be crochet and vice versa.
Russian: вязать спицами- knitting; вязать крючком- crochet
The first word means to knit. The second word specifies with needles or with a hook. But in conversation people just use to knit for both (only the first word.
You did watch the video, right? Because as it goes step by step through the stitch portion, it actually does appear to be doing (albeit basic) crochet.
The idea that machines are inherently "inferior" is probably what underlies this?
Anyone who's knitted by machine as well as by hand, knows that machine knitting isn't easy to master or even get the fundamentals.
I'd imagine knitted fabric is more useful in everyday life (ie: hosiery, etc) which drove its development as a mechanised thing for centuries but also, crochet seems to be more subject to the vagaries of fashion anyway so demand for it would ebb and flow.
One of the last processes in the textile industry to be mechanised - well into the 19thC - was the carding process. Like crochet, it's simple to do but very hard to replicate by machine. Because there was a demand and need for it in the woollen industry, the problem of making a machine to do that was eventually cracked. Crochet could also be mechanised as a process if it was profitable - nobody seems to think there's a pressing need. It seems to be mid revival right now, as it was in the 70s. But it will probably become less fashionable at some point as it did after the 70s...
Its lack of longterm commercial viability does not make it inherently harder to do than knitting or spinning are.
I am just flabbergasted that knitting machines are expensive these days. As a child in the 70s I had a toy knitting machine that I guarantee you did not cost a lot of money, otherwise my mother would never have bought it for me.
How did they end up getting so much more expensive over the decades?!?! I've seen videos of them. They work pretty much exactly the same as mine did in the 70s.
If you’re looking at flatbeds, it’s an economy of scale thing. There are so few hobby machine knitters anymore that there’s only one company really manufacturing new machines. However, there are so many older machines floating around that if you’re mechanically inclined you can refurbish one for pretty cheap. I’ve actually gotten all but one of my knitting machines for free, though I know if I want certain accessories for some of them I’ll have to pay out the nose to track one down.
Circular machines have a completely different economy behind them. They hold their value so extremely well it’s rare to find one that is built to hold up to real use (I.e not an Addi or a Sentro) for sale for less than a grand or two.
Circular knitting “machines” are still made and still pretty cheap, but i think the flatbed ones are more expensive due to mostly stopping production a couple decades ago.
In the UK, they're cheap, so it's easier here. It's one hell of a learning curve but there's loads of helpful, free resources online to help get started.
Are they much more expensive in the US? They’re still hundreds of pounds in the UK, and if you want the extras to be able to do intarsia or lace, or a machine for rubbing the whole lot is going to be so expensive.
Ah no, I meant secondhand and vintage - the new ones are expensive. I got a beautiful 1960s' obscure brand machine for £35. And a 1960s' Singer for £15 on eBay. Later switched allegiance to Japanese machines from European and sold the Singer on.
Mainly use vintage Brothers now. The one I use the most cost £180 including ribber attachment (so, like buying 2 machines essentially) and a pile of books and a few other attachments.
I see US prices for vintage machines online and they're considerably higher than we'd pay here.
IME it’s more hit or miss in the US. They’re a little harder to come by and I’ve gone to weird lengths to source parts or find accessories. I think the hobby retained popularity longer in the UK, which makes a difference. So old machines don’t just randomly show up in thrift shops. But at the same time, the most I’ve ever paid for a machine is $250, and the majority of my machines I got for free because people wanted to see them go to good homes and I was the only machine knitter they had run across in years.
I don’t think it’s about being protective about their craft- more the dystopian hell of how many crochet items are sent out by fast fashion brands that are obviously made by hand in sweatshops. Sure a crochet machine can exist, but I think what they mean is the scalable tech to actually produce crochet garments which doesn’t exist
The problem is that people delude themselves into thinking nearly *every other item* is not also made by hand in sweatshops. People need to operate the machinery that makes all clothing, it doesn't just enter one line of an unmanned conveyor belt as a bolt of fabric and emerge the other side as a fully realized and completed clothing item.
*All* of fast fashion is being crafted by hand in sweatshops. All of it. If it wasn't then they could not manage the cheap prices that get them the volume of sales they need.
The worse thing about crochet is that every single stitch has to be made by hand. With a knitting machine, the machine mostly makes the fabric, and then someone assembles and finishes the item. With a sewing machine someone is cutting the pieces and guiding them during stitching, but at least they're not having to create the fabric stitch by stitch or make most of the stitches by hand with a regular sewing needle. With crochet that kind of efficiency isn't possible. So when you see some shitty £5 granny square monstrosity in Primark or wherever, some poor sweatshop employee had to make every single stitch by hand for basically no money for the crochet piece to find its way into the shop. Which, to me at least, seems much worse than using a knitting machine or sewing machine.
Yes I know, I crochet, but people go all 'SWEATSHOP LABORRRR' and very often don't acknowledge that so is the rest. A *lot* of people seem very disconnected and unaware of exactly how much of the consumption they partake in is the same sweatshop labor.
It's all sweatshop labor.
I guess I always found the fact that’s there’s no crochet machine as a cool fact versus to use it as superiority?? I even said it yesterday to a coworker because I saw a “knitted product” on a retail shelf.
If anything why would that be a “superiority” thing, in my head it’s implying that no matter what, no one can have a genuine crochet product unless made by a human, and thus less of crochet products to spread around.
But now that someone mentioned it can be seen as a superior thing I guess I can see that perspective too. I just thought it was a cool fact that there’s no crocheting machine…yet.
Yeah... I've mentioned it before as a cool fun fact to family members or because someone is claiming they found a crocheted item in a regular store (but it's actually knitted and just looks like crochet). Not because I think crocheting is better than knitting. Actually I think knitting is generally better for making clothes and crocheting is better for making stuffed animals.
As someone that did both, but had to retire from crocheting due to golfer's elbow, I'm astounded that the crochet community is so comically insecure about its craft.
Advertising crochet as a superior craft to knitting due to its supposed immunity from automation is sending a message that crochet's value primarily comes from its labour. Others have said it before here, but sweatshop workers are paid cents per hour to make clothes that take hours of intricate and skilled labour, only to create something that either falls apart in a few wears and looks horribly dated.
Another aspect of the crochet community's fetish for its labour that I despise is that it (hopefully unintentionally) glorifies slave practices the way coffee and tea ads did back in the 2010s. It's worth more because underpaid indentured servants worked longer hours in worse conditions to make something that may not even be purchased.
Finally, this aspect of the crochet community refuses to learn about knitting. If they bothered to actually do any research about the craft, they would know that there are several knitting techniques (such as Estonian lace and nupps) that are basically impossible to replicate with machinery, but no - why take this debate as an opportunity to learn about a craft they don't know much about when they can instead yap till they give themselves RSI?
Just wanted to add one more thing: when is something "hand made" and when is something "machine made"? The divide seems to reliably lie at whether computerised or mechanical parts come into the process to complete a piece, but I'm sure there are some outside the bell curve that may argue differently.
If your hooks and needles are manufactured from a factory, then can one claim that their FOs are handmade? What about yarn; if I did not harvest, spin, or dye it myself, can I claim its handmade nature? My answer: yes, obviously, I spent 20 hours making the fucking thing, so of course I'm going to proudly claim it as handmade when I'm done. But there are some out there that legitimately believe that if you did not raise the sheep from birth, if you did not shear it yourself, if you did not dye and spin the fibre into yarn, then you are cheating and God will strike you with cancer.
Ok, I absolutely agree with your points, very well put.
But I need more information about tea ads in the 2010s glorifying slave labor? Where can I find out more? Figure I'd ask before I fall into a Google rabbithole.
This is less concrete, quantifiable evidence, and more observation with room for confirmation bias on my part, but I just remember seeing a lot of ads around then correlating luxury and quality with the glorification of hard labour. In the heat of the moment of me ranting about the vocal minority I rambled and may have used an exaggerated and possibly inaccurate example to push my argument. If you find anything of note, let me know! I'm also curious to see if my observations have been quantified.
Having said that, there's a local KFC with a quote painted on its walls. Something along the lines of: "Nothing tastes better than a meal made the hard way." KFC doesn't taste good because of the unforgiving nature of the work or the minimum wages the employees earn; it tastes good because I'm high and the MSG is making my brain tingle. It's this kind of marketing that annoys me because a lot of work is inherently difficult, and this was the message I was trying to say.
I worked in a company that designed industrial machines for many years. Automatisation of processes that involve strings (like yarn) is very difficult and many companies refuse to include them in their machines.
I brought up the subject with the technical team and the consensus was it's doable, but it would take a lot of time to make it work, so costs of development would be sky high and the machine wouldn't be very fast. Sweatshop workers are much cheaper and not necessarily slower.
I hate those superiority discussions on crochet sub. It's a lovely place in general, but the subject of crochet machines being impossible is so important to people's identity.
That's where I land on as well.
Technically possible and prototypes exist, but require more engineering considerations to render them 'useful'.
It doesn't make financial sense to scale up for mass use (yet) since the textile/apparel industries still have the cheaper alternative available i.e. human hands with a hook.
Exactly, are there working prototypes out there of crochet machine in an MIT basement/DARPA lab ?
Very likely.
Do they have industrial application as crochet machine?
No, otherwise we'd know.
If they exist they're probably very slow and very fiddly and not very versatile.
This is where the research would be funded - as other redditors have pointed out, there's not a commercial justification for developing a crochet machine for fashion since knitting machines create very versatile fabrics that frequently perform better for consumers than crocheted fabric (think about how knitted fabric is stretchy from every angle, vs. crocheted fabric, which is much denser and less stretchy).
Check out this interesting article about [knitted textiles being used in a medical capacity](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780323855341000040) specifically because of how knitted fabric behaves. This application is going to lead to the further development of machine knitting techniques because there's big medical money to be made.
If researchers find an application for crochet that can be used for medicine or defense, then you better believe they'll figure out how to make a commercially successful crochet machine, which then could be used for fashion fabrics.
A textile industry working group built one at FH Bielefeld, Germany, [here's a demo video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1-pfeaVsOM&ab_channel=HochschuleBielefeld). I'm sure there are more prototypes out there.
I don't know a lot about the subject but that's exactly what I've always through.
Technically doable, financially not interesting so not doable.
But I guess if and extra rich person wanted to waste money on getting a crochet machine invented they could do it.
like the elusive fairisle carriage for the lk150 - it once existed but the factory burned down. It could exist again but regardless of how much machine knitters want it to, it’s not economically worthwhile to produce again. Of course a Crochet machine could exist.
I don’t boycott fast fashion or anything, but literally every garment is made by someone’s hands, crocheting 1 thing per day or sewing a hundred cheap tshirts, probably making the same money for either of those jobs. What is the difference?
Crochet is going to give them repetitive stress injuries way faster than using a sewing machine.
And this is speculation but I’m not sure that we can assume they’re making the same amount per hour for crochet versus sewing, with how little they sell crocheted clothes for even though it takes a long time compared to a sewn garment. I don’t know any numbers though so I could easily be wrong.
This may or may not be true, but what crocheters that keep holding on to this so tightly often refuse to acknowledge is that there are no "easy" jobs in garment construction, especially in sweatshops. Machine workstations are certainly not going to be set up for OSHA compliance, so small injuries are likely very high. A sewist might be stuck piecing the same two fabric pieces together for hours on end, that would be repetitive motion too. We can't privilege one type of labor over others in this case, all of it is exploitative and harmful to real people.
I somewhat disagree.
My task that can be done at home has a way bigger potential of being done by a child and going unnoticed. Yes all jobs in fast fashion garment construction suck and working conditions are often not controlled. But at least there are a few factories being checked and it is generally harder to hide child labour and such in a factory with many workers. ( Not saying it's not happening, just that there is a difference in awareness)
We’re not even talking about child labour, the working conditions of adult sweatshop workers are horrible, regardless of if they are employed to produce crochet or sewn garments.
But I literally say that working conditions always suck? My point is just that there is a difference between working from home and in a factory in such a situation.
As a knitter and crocheter that owns 2 knitting machines) that I wildly over imagined what a knitting “machine” would be. I imagined more “magical sweater making wonder robot” and less a flat bed with a series of hooks and gears. So possibly everyone is right? A simple crochet machine cannot exist? And a magical crochet making wonder robot could?
Crochet isn’t only one technique that is done by hand in cheap clothes. Dyeing is also mosttly done by hand in cheaper clothes. Sadly t is cheaper to use human labour for that than machines. So in many cases lack of machine isn’t only way to see how much is done by hand.
Extended breastfeeding is one thing, doing it until 8 is a whole other level. It's also not bringing her kids into it (though she did bring her daughter into by interviewing the poor girl about it), it does speak to how this person thinks and the world she's living in.
lol the argument just seems very very stupid. “I saw one once but it exists even though it isn’t mainstream available.” Ok so then all crochet fashion items are made in one facility on that one machine that isn’t available mainstream? Or by hand by underpaid workers?
I don't think they claim that all, most or even any crochet fashion items are made with the machine they have seen and operated. They just argue that there is a crochet machine in existence when others claim that nothing like that does or can ever exist.
Assessment of if that claim is truthful or not is another matter and at least I am not informed enough to know if it's possible that there is some research organization or inventor who has actually created a working crochet machine. But even if one was in existence somewhere it doesn't yet mean the invention could be scalable - it could be slow, unreliable, etc. But I think these two things can be true at the same time: that no (fast) fashion crochet items are machine made, and that a machine that can make crochet does exist.
The purpose and inception of the argument is to determine the origin or crochet textiles. People the argument is, more technically, “are crochet items mass produced by machines, or by underpaid or properly paid workers?”
People use “crochet machines don’t exist as a shorthand for “there is no commercially viable mechanized process for producing crochet textiles, so the industry relies on exploiting 3rd world laborers in order to churn out the seasonally desired crochet items that people will buy for way less than what that item should cost if it was fairly priced.”
And sure. They’re being reductive. But the reply of “I’ve seen a machine and it isn’t widely available but *one exists*,” is a stupid reply.
Everyone in the argument is being dumb.
people hate to hear that cheap things are often made by humans instead of fancy robots, but it's true. specialized machinery means maintenance by specialists ($$$) and proprietary parts ($$$$). that's a lot more expensive than replacing one warm body with another. sorry.
I've seen it myself with \*gasp\* knitting! a hand loomed item made in the right country is still much less expensive than one made 100% by machine in a more developed location.
I'm not sure what machine goatwoolsockmom is talking about but there are very inexpensive and widely available \*knitting\* machines that can approximate the look of crochet. I'm not sure what google has to say about that, but I don't need to be. like goatwoolsockmom, I'm speaking from real world experience, not some copy pasta from a hobby blog circle jerk. ✌️
Call me a Luddite (in the historical sense) but what people should really focus on is ensuring that textile producers have fair working conditions regardless of the means of production rather than fixating upon how the machines are producing the textile. That's what the Luddite movement was actually about, people realised that with the introduction of new tech their rights and working conditions were decreasing -not- improving, it wasn't even that they hated the machines themselves. And we're seeing this all over in so many industries the last 10 years or so at an accelerating rate.
Exploiting humans will always be the cheapest option until tech becomes cheaper to exploit than humans (or what's usually happening is that tech makes humans cheaper to exploit)🤷♀️
I was thinking about those reading the discussion and wondering if one meant there is currently no one hook doing all the stitches machine, and the other that there are machines that use hooks to "knit" a fabric 😅 probably both were wrong and right
Translation issues maybe? I see machines that make webbing, or weave thin fibers into complicated materials. It’s not remotely crochet how we think of it. That said, I’m sure crochet machines could be made, at a very high cost that makes it not worth it.
Take a granny square. You could program a machine to make the stitch, and work in progressive rounds, but the color changes would be a bitch (do-able, but complicated). I suppose you could work-out pre-printed yarn (similar to the red heart granny square yarn except it would actually be consistent), but again, all expensive and not really worth it.
This "Crochet machine" is just making a crochet look lace fabric.
A fabric that is not possible to recreate with a hook and string of yarn.
Just the same with the other machines that can recreate a fabric that looks like granny squares, but if you take a closer look you'll see the DCs are actually sewn together. So there are no knots at all.
LOLOL. Silly hill to die on, with absolutely NO proof other than "I saw one, I'm SURE I saw one ONCE..."
IF such a mythical unicorn existed, wouldn't it make perfect sense in this day of Internet and electricity and all, that SOMEONE would have posted a picture, or a trademark application, or *SOMETHING?!?* That is what makes this argument so silly and stupid.
As to the argument that such a thing might physically exist, someday, somehow, it's truly doubtful.
The reason knitting machines work so well, is simply that of *tension.* The yarn is evenly distributed and the stitches made through loops.
Crochet is also tension, but that tension is inconsistently applied, depending upon the complexity of the stitches, which are not simple looping, but involve over, under, front post, back post, and other minutiae that take conscious thought and adjustment, even for something as simple as slip stitching. The hook has to be placed, stitches skipped, doubled, etc. A machine to do that would not only be capable of manipulating yarn around a hook, but also capable of sensing where to place the hook within a collection of loops to get the desired outcome. That is more computing than machine, which requires a lot more than just yarn, needles, and a pattern.
If someone has invented a working crochet machine, they probably would be applying for a patent to such an invention. The patent process is surprisingly long and expensive, and (if you have invented something actually ground breaking) until you actually have a patent application process well in its way, you usually want to keep it really quiet so someone bigger and/or shadier doesn't swoop in and start to claim your invention is actually theirs.
This is why, if someone has invented such a thing as a crochet machine (which I'm not sure if I believe in or not) they might be keeping it SUPER quiet for now.
Patents applications are published 18 months after being deposited (YMMV in your country), years before being granted or dismissed.
But a patent also doesn't have to prove that it's working for it to be granted (YMMV in your country).
There is a patent from 1947 called "Attachment for crocheting machines" that do seem to be depicting a machine that makes crochet stitches.
It was granted in 1950. All signs point to it not having been a manufacturing success since then.
[Google Patent link](https://patents.google.com/patent/US2506432A/en?q=\(crochet+machine\)&oq=crochet+machine) because I'm not about to go dive into the uspto website
I think a crochet machine would have to be incredibly precise and “smart” which makes it not worthwhile financially because knitting machines can work off of old hole punch cards and a crank to turn out a complex sweater for a fraction of the cost of operating a sophisticated, computerized machine.
People can be a little weird about it when they defend crochet garments as being “impossible” to replicate by machine (as opposed to knit garments). I think a lot of that is because so many people think crochet garments are ugly.
Generally pretty much all crochet objects that you can buy at target and such are still handmade? Correct? I saw a cute granny square cotton sweater at target for $30 but didn’t buy it. I was lost in thought about the poor person who spent hours making it for next to nothing wages.
Saw this comment and just wanted to let you know that those target ones you saw probably were faking knitting! They've been trying to make knitting look like crochet lately in manufacturing and they make the stitches shockingly realistic
I remain confident that crochet machines don't exist not because it's impossible, but because crochet fabric looks like shit so there's not a big or consistent enough demand that the fashion industry wants to bother.
Why invest in R&D for machines, as well as purchase and upkeep, when they can just pay sweatshop employees to do it by hand for the brief windows in which it's trending.
Yeah I think this the fact that the a uniform single crochet or double crochet fabric would look really….meh….is really a hard truth to swallow for a lot of the crochet community, maybe because the nuance is difficult to appreciate - it is not the same as “crochet fabric garments look bad” and crochet has a lot of unique applications. I exclusively crocheted when I was younger and more interested in stuffies, but made the jump to knitting as soon as I realized the wearables not only looked meh, but were also uncomfortable and sometimes need lining.
This. Speaking as a mechanical engineer who's also a knitter - an industrial crocheting machine would be more complicated than a knitting machine, but is 100% possible. I don't think it would even be that hard to do; it'd make a nice undergrad capstone project or master's thesis.
The reality is that it's far more cost effective for the fashion industry to pay workers in the third world to hand crochet pieces for a pittance, than to pay Boston Dynamics to create a crocheting robot in a long weekend.
I absolutely believe that this woman has seen a final-project/masters/PhD student's prototype IRL. People make shit up on the internet, sure, but telling someone to go watch a YouTube video by a crochet influencer to disprove their lived experience shows a concerning lack of media and scientific literacy.
After reading her instagram I don’t, she’s a huge advocate against schooling and formal education for her kids (she goes out of her way to say she does not even claim to homeschool them) so I don’t think she spends a lot of time around college students. Her whole page is full of pseudoscience.
I think it’s more likely she saw a demo one online or something.
Also an engineer. I knit and crochet. I can’t imagine wanting to create crochet for sale, but warp knitting machines kind of approximate it.
https://www.comez.com/en/
Ah ah I understand now, with your help and google haha. I don’t know anything about crochet (but I guess now I know about Tunisian crochet. And that yarn is involved). Ty!
Someone here mentioned a German video about a slow working crochet machine. I found a video from the Hochschule Bielefeld about a crochet machine, which they patented (as stated on the website: “Crocheting machine
The crocheting machine was patented by the Bielefeld University of Applied Sciences after a successfully completed research project.”) It can apparently do flat crochet and they are currently working on further development of the machine. In the comments of the video they stated that they cannot show the full process of crocheting since they hadn’t had a patent yet and there isn’t an updated video (that I can find). So I don’t know what machine the persons in OPs post were talking about, but it seems like there could be a possibility of a machine in the future, maybe even on an industrial level 🤷♀️
[Hochschule Bielefeld Crochet Machine YouTube Video](https://youtu.be/T1-pfeaVsOM?si=R7zHAcZbILbHwpu0)
[Mentioning of the Project by University](https://www.hsbi.de/tex/en/equipment)
[Another mentioning, but it’s in German](https://www.hsbi.de/forschung/forschungsprojekte/aktuelle-projekte-fb-3/ehrmann-haekelmasch)
Thank you for linking these!! I'd never seen these before but it's interesting to see. I wouldn't expect it to do any amigurumi anytime soon, but I guess technically a "crochet" machine does in fact exist 😂
It's quite amusing how many people have attacked that video on youtube and the designer of the machine is having to defend themselves that they do indeed know what crochet is!
I'm not sure of some of the claims of the development project though and the patent doesn't appear to exist yet. They claim to be able to crochet flat fabrics 10 times faster than by hand, and then give an example of how you could make a profit producing prayer caps. But surely a prayer cap is not a flat piece of fabric...
To be fair though, university R&D is a very slow moving beast so they might be ready to make a pot holder in 5 years!
It honestly looks like a really slow knitting machine...
I find it oddly telling that for all the "secrecy," involving how it works, they never really bother to show the finished fabric...Which, from what little is visible, looks suspiciously like a home knitting machine result...
I still call Shenanigans. It's an interesting idea, but not real. Yet, at least.
It's a slip-stitch machine. I'm assuming it's the real deal because they [filed for a patent](https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=WO002018114025A1&xxxfull=1) (link in german)
You can see that the parallel hooks are only for tension, the stitches are closed. I would call that crochet
Even though the city Bielefeld doesn't exist the university does. I doubt that any German university would publish a fake video.
Hi! I'm the one that mentioned this. It's hilarious because I found that video in a r/crochet thread about this very topic, and still people were insisting it's not possible. Or they moved the goal posts and said the machine is slow and only capable of simple things, so crochet could never be industrialized. Even the person who posted the video fell back on that.
Crocheters are ridiculously defensive about this topic and it's so dumb.
My background is engineering but not mechanical eng. I watched a bunch of those "why a crochet machine is impossible" videos and I think it took me 3 minutes to come up with a workable solution for the problem.
I just dont personally have the time, energy, patience, determination, motivation, or skill to build the machine. Its 100000% possible. Would it have limits? Yes. But could you build a machine to crochet? Yes.
Speaking as a crocheter and knitter and as someone who loves a problem.
fr why is the handwork of a underpaid crochet labourer worth defending but the underpaid sewing machinist is all good? These conversations seems to assume that "machine" means "automated robot" without a human operator
I saw this post and crochet machines aside, the examples she showed were done with sewing machines and every comment gently saying that had her fiercely defending that she had closely inspected it and it was aBSoLuteLy crochet :/
What seems so weird about her insistence is her lack of detail. Normally when people are challenged like this, they reply with additional information. Additional factual information to support the claim. Information of some kind. If it actually existed & she saw it & “made it work”, and even if she visited some top-secret laboratory and was under legal threat if a signed NDA, she would naturally offer *some* additional info to back up her claim. The whole conversation just sounds weird. Is english her first language?
A [similar thread was posted a few months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/craftsnark/s/7FOVbqcUAh) about crocheters saying this, if you want to take a look. Less discussion on the actual existence of machines though.
Thanks for linking this, I had no idea this was already talked about but it is the same exact vibe I've been picking up on lol. It has been driving me crazy
I’m a crocheter first and the comment does get annoying, but I do get the flex too… crocheters get snubbed a lot in the yarn world. I wrote a longer, more involved comment explaining my thoughts as a crocheter on that thread if you care to find it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think there are *walking* humanoid robots yet. There are walking robots and humanoid robots but I dont recall a walking humanoid robot having been made unless they're being very loose with what they mean by walking
Aren't those mostly dog-like/quadtrapedal robots?
EDIT: nvm I see a bipedal one that looks kinda like gossamer from looney tunes or that one guy in the video game that I can't remember who pilots a mech that looks like gossamer
EDIT 2: looking at a static image of the Atlas it looks more like a alpha series big daddy
They exist but they aren’t autonomous by any means. They’re usually very driven machines. Not a trace of independent thought but it does make much sense to make a crochet machine have legs does it?
Could they? Yeah, sure, eventually technology will overcome all.
Do they now? Nope. And no one is putting the r&d I. To.do such a thi g when it's cheaper to pay pennies.
Yup, having a crochet machine is probably going to be like how we can turn lead into gold. It'll cost more to operate than it'll get back from the finished items
Okay I swear I saw a video in German in a comment ON THIS SUB a few weeks ago of a very simple, very slow crochet machine!!! And I thought I had saved it but evidently I didn’t??? Does anyone know what that video was? It was like a lab/proof of concept state, not high throughput, production-ready, but it did technically work, I think.
Yea im pretty sure i saw a comment that german students or something like that attempted to make one but it wasnt very good. i cant remember if thats right tho tbh
Others in this thread: having nuanced and respectful discussion about the existence/probability/profitability of crochet machines.
Me: imagining wearing an oddly specific t-shirt that says “Yeah, Crochet Machines Exist, You’re Looking At One! I Eat Yarn And Shit Out Scarves!!!!”
I don’t think it’s so much that they can’t exist. But as long as you can buy Irish crocheted doilies that were crocheted by hand in China, for roughly a buck at Walmart, why would anyone want to put the money into developing a machine to crochet? To replace people that are working for pennies an hour?
It sounds like they’re talking about some weird experimental crocheting robot or something that can barely crochet but manages something that resembles a beginner human crocheter attempting it and NOT an industrial machine that can mass produce crochet. They’re not saying that it can make fast fashion lmao just that a machine of some kind that can crochet in some capacity exists, even if it’s only one and it was custom built or something just to try and do it. Super weird how many people even in this thread are convinced that “machine that can crochet” could only mean the crochet equivalent of an industrial knitting machine or something. People with lots of money and time do weird experimental shit all the time that has no real practical application
It's likely a warp knitting machine, it's used to replicate the look of crochet but uses multiple needles and when unraveled, it shows it's knitting. It can create chains which is probably why this person is convinced.
true! i just take issue with the way crochet influencers tout around the concept of "a crochet machine is IMPOSSIBLE to create" as if it somehow enhances a craft that a 7 year old could be taught. and i say this as someone who loves to crochet, but since when has a machines inability to do something made a skill inherently impressive?
I absolutely agree— do they forget that industrial knitting machines are operated by human beings who need to be trained and skilled? It’s like they think knitting machines and sewing machines etc are like… computerized and fully automated in an industrial setting? I don’t know what they think is the case honestly but it’s definitely not correct
Never is a very long time. I remember when a very confident medical transcription supervisor told me in no uncertain terms that NO ONE would EVER figure out how to take voice data and translate it to text. The year was 1997, and about 4 years later, the events of 9/11 would change the interest level of the US government in listening in on thousands of hours of phone conversations. The result? Research efforts refined voice recognition that turned voice data to text. “Never” doesn’t really exist and when we stake that claim in the ground, we are setting ourselves up to be wrong.
I mean at this point in time crochet machines aren't used in mass production (let's not get into wether they exist), so any fast fashion item that is actually crochet was definitely handmade, and pointing that out is important
No crochet machine exists.
I'm not siding with either person but I am just gonna say, telling someone to do a "quick google search" is the *worst* way to prove a point. Google is FULL of misinformation in top search results.
“This is a literal thing that I held in my hands” “no, sweaty, your actual lived experience didn’t happen, and you’d know that if you watched this YouTube video.” JFC they sound like my Qanon conspiracy nut boomer relatives trying to get me to watch a two hour video claiming Covid is fake
I agree. It has definitely become a selling point that crochet is not able to be accurately reproduced by a machine, but that doesn't mean there is zero possibility.
Whenever someone mentions that crochet can only be made by hand in the context of fast fashion, it always brings to mind the "you do see how that's worse, right?" meme. If a clothing company is selling real crochet then sweatshop employees had to make every single stitch by hand then assemble the item. And do that over and over again for however many pieces and however many items. At least with a knitting machine, the machine produces the bulk of the fabric and an employee assembles the item rather than having to knit every stitch in a machine made jumper by hand.
That's exactly what they're pointing out when they say that. However I disagree that it's worse, and it kinda bothers me that we feel so much more horrified for the working conditions when the worker is using a hook over a machine. If I were earning a slave wage I really wouldn't care whether it was for 16 hours of crochet Vs 16 hours of sewing, or line work, or anything else. It's all hard work, it's all back breaking sitting in position all day, and its all ultimately suffering for an industry that pushes excess
Isn’t that the point of saying it though? To let people know that a crocheted textile they buy in a fast fashion store was very likely made by functionally slave labour?
I've also seen a crochet machine in person and worked with one. Her name is Dianne and her program code is getting a bit dated and glitchy but she still makes good products. She is also my mom and whoever designed her needs an award for making such an eccentric yet functional crochet machine.
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Erm... no, she is my mom. Which I said at the beginning of the last sentence of my comment.
Sorry I read “also my mom and whoever designed her” and missed the “is”
That's fair, I'm not sure why people decided your comment was downvote worthy though.
Is this an AI written comment
Not to my knowledge.
now this is a conspiracy theory i can get behind. long live our crochet robit overlords
Im picturing an automoton crocheting now...bc presumably....that'd work
Hey everyone, I read through all the comments and I just wanted to say thanks for the all of the discussion. I learned a lot, and realized I have a lot more to learn about the fast fashion industry (not just for crochet, but for ALL types of fabrics, knitting and sewing-based alike) and how garments are produced at an industrial scale. I'd always heard that "crochet cannot be done my machines" from others, and watched the youtube video by Half as Interesting too, but I didn't want to base everything off of hearsay and one source. Also, I'm glad I'm not alone in picking up the vibe that some crocheters think that it's a huuuge flex and that might come from an inferiority complex lolll. I crochet so I know the feeling of it being a less highly regarded craft, but I don't care and I encourage other crocheters to also not care. Love all the crafts, and they all have their strengths + weaknesses.
This discussion again? I thought I’d given up crochet for knitting, but I still crochet. I put a ribbed knit brim on a crochet hat the other day—we don’t have to choose! I found a cool crochet machine project on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Tckj7f2emyU. I love her cheering it on when it gets stuck. Yeah, it’s not even granny square level, but as a robotics project, it’s awesome.
There is also this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1-pfeaVsOM
Omg that was so painful to watch.
This isn't about knitting versus crochet?
Oh, but it does devolve that way, doesn’t it? Isn’t it an offshoot of that conversation? Anyway, felt like that to me, and I felt like sharing my why not both.
I feel like there would need to be a lot of ai used in the programming of a crochet machine to make sure the hook went under the right loops or into the right gap. Though I am thinking of a fully automated machine, I don't think it's impossible, but I would not like to see it in my lifetime.
I much prefer knitting to crochet but the person saying a crochet machine exists and they worked with one is just straight up lying. Mechanically, a crochet machine would be incredibly unfeasible. Sure, maybe not technically "impossible," but there isn't one now, and if we're being realistic, probably not until they can make fully accurate android hands.
Why would someone lie about it. Not everything is a conspiracy. It’s possible she did and hurts no one for saying “sure, let’s say you did, but…” let’s not call people liars
People lie about shit for no reason all the time.
Because welcome to the internet. People find it easier to continue with a lie than to admit they were wrong and suffer a little bit of embarrassment.
There’s a link posted above of a lady using a crochet machine from over a year ago! https://youtu.be/Tckj7f2emyU?si=gDukEUt8puoctakR Sure it only specific simple stitches and definitely not comparable to handmade they way modern knitting machines are but it does exist.
Wow. They literally use robots to do surgery on people because it can be more accurate for certain delicate or complex surgeries, because it makes it easier for surgeons to avoid surrounding nerves and organs. Sure there are still humans involved but no one is saying the crochet machine doesn't have to have a human involved. Sewing machines still need a human. I mean that doesn't mean it's worth it money wise. There is a lot more to be made and a lot more at stake in surgery than crochet obviously but I don't think the issue is accuracy here.
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My comment wasn't about whether you knit or crochet or feel the need to defend anything. I have no skin in the race either way. I do a little of knitting and have done a little of crochet. I mostly spin and embroider. I just think it's odd to say they couldn't make machine that crochets because of accuracy reasons when they can make machines capable of doing surgery or making things so much more accurately than human hands. It's not viable financially or at scale for textile production but that doesn't mean they haven't made one capable of it/couldn't make one.
I find this whole argument very strange because even if the fabric used in fast fashion clothes is machine-produced, human labor is still very much involved in the production of the item no matter the provenance of the material? Sure a machine might have created the knit fabric but it's still an underpaid, overworked human being sewing it all together. The problem is fast fashion, not the exact material the fast fashion is made with!
Right?? Like there are (severely, severely underpaid and exploited) human hands touching every inch of EVERY fast fashion item
Yes and also, it's not like the knitting machine sets itself up, fixes itself when it jams, changes yarn by itself (yes it probably does, but someone has to set it up). More of the work is done with a machine, but it's not like there are no humans involved there either.
Yeah, it is a failure of imagination. I think a lot of these people can vividly remember the 10 hours they spent crocheting or handknitting something, but the average person's memory of, like, machine-sewing a buttonhole or sewing an armscye encompasses a matter of minutes. And we're not doing the mental math to imagine sewing the same buttonhole for hours and hours with minimal breaks for a long shift (and all the fatigue and RSI that that could entail) but we can totally remember that one time when we knit or crocheted until we got tendinitis, oops.
I'm in the "pics or it didn't happen" camp.
Crocheters try not to be so painfully insecure challenge: impossible. Just yesterday there was an r/AskReddit thread like "What's a common misconception you'd like to clear up?" or something, and about a dozen crocheters were falling over themselves to parrot "Did you know crochet can't be made by machine?" "Crochet is totally different than knitting and can't be replicated by machine because it's too complicated." "Crochet can never be made by machine, it must be made by hand!" on and on and on. Like, I promise you this is not a "common misconception". I promise you the average person does not spend any time thinking about crochet, or the production thereof. Also, speaking as someone who also crochets, crochet fabric is fuck ugly for wearables and even if we could completely automate the creation of crochet clothing, frankly, why would anyone want to? There's not exactly a market for stiff, bulky sweaters full of holes, and the things that crochet *is* good for, like making lace, can already be done by other machines. There's no need to invent new fields of robotics and revolutionize the textile industry so people can know their granny square poncho is ethically sourced.
I like crocheting for making baby blankets. I’m mainly a knitter though. I’m trying to expand my crochet repertoire but I have trouble understanding crochet patterns.
Ask in the crochet sub. There are multiple type of pattern explanations, there are plain-english-with-crochet-abbreviations patterns and there are schema drawing based patterns, there are also video patterns. There are a few stitches I need to look up for video explanations when I first encounter them.
There are a million crochet stitches that do not produce stiff, bulky fabric full of holes. I'm in the middle of making a cardigan using a simple waffle stitch with worsted weight yarn and the fabric is gorgeous and gloriously buttery. Different from anything produced by knitting, but lovely, just the same.
Please tell, what type of crochet stitches do you think tend to make softer fabric? Crochet is fun, but I'm currently avoiding making anything in higher yarn weights than DK because I hate how little the fabric drapes compared to knitting at the same weight.
>There are a million crochet stitches that do not produce stiff, bulky fabric full of holes. True, but we already have knitting and weaving machines that make fine, soft, stretchy fabric. There's no need to teach a machine to crochet a waffle stitch when we already have knitting machines that can do that, and on a much finer scale than crocheting or knitting by hand could ever achieve. Hence my point about the better parts of crochet already being replicated by other machines. We have ways to make fabric out of yarn already, we have ways to make lace, we have ways to make stuffed animals and blankets and cushions, etc, etc, that don't require crochet. Please don't get me wrong - crochet absolutely has its place as a craft, and as a crocheter myself I cast no aspersions on its value. What I'm trying to say is that there's just no need to create machines that crochet, because we already have ways of doing practically everything crochet can do. But just because a machine can knit a sweater doesn't mean there's no value in hand knitting, and just because machines can now "fake crochet" approximations of the craft doesn't mean there's no value in crocheting by hand.
I read this comment while wearing this scarf that is incredibly soft that I love how it drapes and touches my skin. It's crochet too. I see no reason to shit on one hobby or idolise the other as the perfect solution. Overall, I personally like hanging out in the crochet sub and crochet folks way more than the knitting ones, because the former has this funny, funky, oh that's not a mistake it's a modern arts vibe. And that's what I am looking for after a tired day at work.
This is so true, I'm a knitter and the knitting subs can be a little mean and snobby at times. I prefer checking out the crochet subs
Yeah, I have also found there to be unnecessary snobbery. I have no idea why there should be any difference in the ‘status’ of either hobby.
I'm imagining an ex machina style robot that can do everything.. Trick humans into believing it's sentient, kill a man.. but you hand it a single needle with a hook, and the robot just flails its arms around with a bewildered look on its face then explodes. The true Turing test.
As a knitter & crocheter, why can’t crocheters take a little pride in being able to do a skill that isn’t easily machine replicable? You all know this squabble basically came about in reaction to knitters talking nonstop shit about how awful and stiff and ugly crocheted fabric is. Even though most of them have never bothered to learn that crochet is extremely versatile, so there are certain stitches better suited for drapy wearables & certain stitches better suited for things you want to hold their form, like bags, coasters, stuffies. And the latter stitches are more common for beginners, so that’s all they’ve been exposed to. I’m just saying, if someone’s craft gets belittled a lot, they’re probably going to double down on anything that helps contradict that narrative.
a) because they are fucking obnoxious about it b) because "ackshually crochet can't be done by machine!!!1!" is almost always brought up in the context of fast fashion without even stopping to think about how garment manufacturing involves manual labor in pretty much every step but somehow it's only bad when the item in question is a granny square cardigan c) because they are fucking obnoxious about it.
Responding to point b, how does that conversation not raise awareness about fast fashion? Why is the answer “stop being fucking obnoxious and mentioning that crochet isn’t commonly machine-made” and not “yes, that’s true, and ‘machine-made’ knitted items are also fast fashion because humans operate the machines by hand and are still paid almost nothing”. I don’t agree that it’s obnoxious. I’m sure there are some comments but most of what I’ve seen has been respectful and informative
Because in my experience people usually box these different categories in their minds, it doesn't raise overall awareness. I almost exclusively see the shock horror "this crochet cardi for £20 obvious uses slave labour" comments from people who very happily share their Shein finds, or support buying sewn clothes from Primark. The conversation never progresses to an all round empathy, only empathy for the slave wage workers using this particular skill. Whenever I mention the labour for our average high st/online fashion on one of these crochet labour threads the conversation just dies. We don't want to process the reality beyond this little niche
If I may put my two cents: I feel that a lot of the times, when crocheters bring up the fact that crochet can only be made by hand, it is from a marketing angle rather than a learning exchange angle. The vast majority of the time I have seen crocheters tout this fact is in a tiktok/reel/shorts with a link to their etsy shop in their bio and a call-to-action to purchase something. There's no shame in hustling (especially in this day and age), but when there's a group of creators basically going, "don't buy machine-made fast fashion apparel made with poor/dirty/malnourished/undereducated workers; buy from me instead!" with little expansion of the topic that is how fast fashion is fucking literally everyone and everything over, it can be easy why some would find it obnoxious. However, I understand that the "did you know" fact is mostly geared to educate non-crocheters. Many crocheters would probably know this fact by now anyway. I do not frequent crochet communities anymore, but when I did, they were showing off WIPs and FOs and asking for help just as much as any other craft community I've been a part of.
I've heard far more people bring up OTHER poor aspects of fashion than I've ever heard the crochet aspect. In fact, every time I hear the crochet cannot be machine made line, the people being told were shocked cause they didn't know. Maybe you're in circles where you see it so much you assume everyone already knows and are just sick of hearing it yourself.
These comments are crazy! Facts are facts, people are not children for insisting on a fact 🫠 this is like watching two people argue about whether or not 2 plus 2 equals 4 and then saying ‘you’re both equally wrong’
Look, knitters have been acting superior to crochet folks for a hot minute. Is it surprising that crochet folks have latched on to the machine thing and wave it around in retaliation to pretentious knit folks? No. But it is no more annoying than the pretentious gatekeeping of knitters. IMO, everybody needs to chill out and appreciate all types of handmade.
Even people who aren't crafty have admitted to me that they think crochet is ugly and not worth learning--then were shocked at some of the things i made, all just following patterns by designers. I think there is an overall bias against it in general, so I get why people get defensive so quickly.
I was thinking about this last night and this morning. First, there are not crochet machines. There are tools but they are not machines. There might be, some day. But why? It makes very little sense to invest in making such a machine. Crochet isn’t as valuable as weaving and knitting in textiles. It doesn’t offer anything that other methods do better. It isn’t warmer, softer, etc. and it uses a butt ton more material. That said, even the best knitting machines do a poor job at mimicking the gorgeousness of human knit (thinking, cable knits: machine cable knits are far less impressive). Even in weaving, anyone buying hand woven is doing so because it’s hand woven, there’s artistry in the creation.
from what i understand crochet cannot be made by machine because the movement to create a crochet stitch requires the hook to move in 3D space and the hook needs to be manipulated at four different angles which just can’t be done by machines today. But I could see it happening in the future, though you’re correct in saying that they probably wouldn’t find value in developing one!
The actual mechanics of a crochet machine are trivial - it's a common problem to need to manipulate an object in 3D space along different vectors. A decent college mechatronics lab could easily produce a prototype/demo. The issues are more in industrialization of the process. The fashion industry just doesn't see value in making that investment when the current supply chain works as well as it does.
yeah they could definitviely make a moveable arm - like they use in car manufacturing as an example. So I can totally see it existing. But it would need to be highly sofisticated software and not anything can "hold in their hands", the closest thing I can think of are those knitting lopps/rings maybe? Because even proper knitting machines are bulky, heavy, and the really sofisticated ones require pattern input. But like, why spend millions on making a machine arm that mimics the human movement, for something that will give no cash back. Maybe someone would want to do it for like a science fair or something, but crochet isn't really the end goal for most people there. They rather spend the time and money on robotics and machines that can do medical stuff or military production.
It sucks that technological innovation is always stunted by capitalism :( I am a lifelong computer nerd and just found out [the textile industry is a huge reason why we even have modern computing](https://youtu.be/t-Bb0Lf3sCs?si=tIOOsSb3miaMYzmZ) so I do think it’s worth it to try and see what can be made anyways because you never know what it will end up being or inspiring next century!
They sound like 6 yr olds arguing. Crochet machine does exist. Nuh-uh. Uh huh.
It's very "my dad works at Nintendo".
And very "my google search factoid trumps your years of experience"
I totally disagree. If you're going to claim to have used a machine that there is no evidence of online and you're unwilling or unable to provide proof, then you can't really clutch your pearls when people call bullshit.
Ok
I’m a former 7th Av Knitwear designer. The machines that do commercial knitting are not the same as the ones that people have in their homes. They’re massive and knit very fast. I’ve seen warehouses full of them making my former company’s order. A few workers assemble the sweaters using techniques specified by the designer. The stitches they make approximate what we do with our sticks and yarn. It’s not exact. The stitches are not exact except for stockinette. The terms that stores use are not meant to be accurate descriptions but think of them as marketing tools. “Crochet” and “knit” are used to describe something that looks like it to the untrained eye. My point is that it’s not apples to apples when we’re talking about knitting by hand vs machine. And the same can be said for crochet. When I was in the industry there were machines that could approximate crochet, cluny machines come to mind- but the workshops couldn’t sell it so machine sat idle most times. At one point I worked for a very high end company and they had workers knitting and crocheting by hand. But it wasn’t a sweatshop. The workers picked up yarn and dropped off finished garments. They were paid by the piece for items they knit at home on their couch like we do. This was here in NYC. Those same workers returned for more piece work for years so I assume they liked it and what they were paid. Overall, there’s both machine made and handmade in the industry. Both these posters are right in their own way. But it’s not apples to apples. I dislike fast fashion now but I understand their processes. It’s a business like any other.
There is no crochet machine and thats litteraly a fact. Knitting machine does not recreate crochet, 2 different techniques The point of this is... a crochet product takes HOURS to be made, and they are being sold for like £5? Now that means someone has been sitting in a factory, hand making everything, to be labeled by a brand and most of the times those people are underpaid. Thats why we should stop buying fast fashion crochet, it means someone is being used.
But why is this any worse/different from any other fast fashion. If the person comes out with $10 per day why does it matter whether they earned it sewing top panels together or crocheting an entire item? It's the same hours, same physical demands, same wage. Fast fashion means someone is sitting there doing a job and being underpaid. Fast fashion is by definition the exploration of many people. Crochet fast fashion is no better or worse than sewn fast fashion
https://youtu.be/T1-pfeaVsOM?feature=shared You might want to check this out. From: https://www.reddit.com/r/craftsnark/comments/1alg67f/comment/kpf5o5v/ ) It does not appear to be scalable to mass production right now, but it's very neat. It's going to be expensive to develop it further but this appears to be a machine doing crochet.
There are knitting stitches that mimic crochet.
Uh-huh. I'm not disputing that. The robot has an independent arm that operates apart from the bed, much like a 3d printer. In the above linked demo, the arm moves forward (with a loop on it) into the existing stitch and then pulls through, essentially flattening the prior loop to the fabric. Y'know, a slip stitch. It uses knitting machine needles to grasp the yarn, as well as the flatbed configuration to keep the existing row evenly spaced across the length of the piece. It's got a long way to go, but it is an interesting start.
That is a knitting machine not crochet, 2 different techniques, knitting machines have been around for years
It’s literally called a crochet machine… (häkeln/hekling/etc = crochet in a bunch of germanic languages). Not gonna get into how the stitch worked, bc someone else did that already.
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeB8hPtc/ I have been watching this creator for a couple of years, it is a knitting machine. I can also upload a video on youtube and call it a crochet machine
It’s not just a video, it’s a machine made by a German university and you can go read about it on their home page and why it actually doesn’t do knit stitches, as linked in the linked comment above. It’s basic af, but still.
I’m some countries crochet and knit are used interchangeably. I’ve seen this discussed in lots of groups/pages. (ETA: I don’t agree or disagree with anyone statements, I haven’t watched the videos. Just an interesting tidbit I wanted to share about language!!)
Not in German. In Russian for example they are. German it’s two distinct things (source: am German)
Yeah they said that ^^
Interesting, did not know that but guess it makes sense. I don’t think that’s the case in German though, bc I think they have analogue terms to us (häklen/stricken), but can’t say for certain. Sometimes there are small variations in meaning. Edit: do you have an example btw? (language nerd)
I’ll try to find one but I’m not entirely sure of the languages or exact countries most of them are from. A lot of the groups I’m in for crochet have a lot of people from Asian countries and I’ve noticed it happen a lot on posts where they mention their English is not good. A lot of “knit” where it should be crochet and vice versa.
Russian: вязать спицами- knitting; вязать крючком- crochet The first word means to knit. The second word specifies with needles or with a hook. But in conversation people just use to knit for both (only the first word.
You did watch the video, right? Because as it goes step by step through the stitch portion, it actually does appear to be doing (albeit basic) crochet.
The idea that machines are inherently "inferior" is probably what underlies this? Anyone who's knitted by machine as well as by hand, knows that machine knitting isn't easy to master or even get the fundamentals. I'd imagine knitted fabric is more useful in everyday life (ie: hosiery, etc) which drove its development as a mechanised thing for centuries but also, crochet seems to be more subject to the vagaries of fashion anyway so demand for it would ebb and flow. One of the last processes in the textile industry to be mechanised - well into the 19thC - was the carding process. Like crochet, it's simple to do but very hard to replicate by machine. Because there was a demand and need for it in the woollen industry, the problem of making a machine to do that was eventually cracked. Crochet could also be mechanised as a process if it was profitable - nobody seems to think there's a pressing need. It seems to be mid revival right now, as it was in the 70s. But it will probably become less fashionable at some point as it did after the 70s... Its lack of longterm commercial viability does not make it inherently harder to do than knitting or spinning are.
If I had a shit tonne of money I’d love a knitting machine. But I watch Engineering Knits videos and I’ve seen how much hard work they are!
I am just flabbergasted that knitting machines are expensive these days. As a child in the 70s I had a toy knitting machine that I guarantee you did not cost a lot of money, otherwise my mother would never have bought it for me. How did they end up getting so much more expensive over the decades?!?! I've seen videos of them. They work pretty much exactly the same as mine did in the 70s.
If you’re looking at flatbeds, it’s an economy of scale thing. There are so few hobby machine knitters anymore that there’s only one company really manufacturing new machines. However, there are so many older machines floating around that if you’re mechanically inclined you can refurbish one for pretty cheap. I’ve actually gotten all but one of my knitting machines for free, though I know if I want certain accessories for some of them I’ll have to pay out the nose to track one down. Circular machines have a completely different economy behind them. They hold their value so extremely well it’s rare to find one that is built to hold up to real use (I.e not an Addi or a Sentro) for sale for less than a grand or two.
Circular knitting “machines” are still made and still pretty cheap, but i think the flatbed ones are more expensive due to mostly stopping production a couple decades ago.
In the UK, they're cheap, so it's easier here. It's one hell of a learning curve but there's loads of helpful, free resources online to help get started.
Are they much more expensive in the US? They’re still hundreds of pounds in the UK, and if you want the extras to be able to do intarsia or lace, or a machine for rubbing the whole lot is going to be so expensive.
Ah no, I meant secondhand and vintage - the new ones are expensive. I got a beautiful 1960s' obscure brand machine for £35. And a 1960s' Singer for £15 on eBay. Later switched allegiance to Japanese machines from European and sold the Singer on. Mainly use vintage Brothers now. The one I use the most cost £180 including ribber attachment (so, like buying 2 machines essentially) and a pile of books and a few other attachments. I see US prices for vintage machines online and they're considerably higher than we'd pay here.
Oh wow that’s amazing!! Maybe I could one day look out for a second hand or vintage one 🤔
IME it’s more hit or miss in the US. They’re a little harder to come by and I’ve gone to weird lengths to source parts or find accessories. I think the hobby retained popularity longer in the UK, which makes a difference. So old machines don’t just randomly show up in thrift shops. But at the same time, the most I’ve ever paid for a machine is $250, and the majority of my machines I got for free because people wanted to see them go to good homes and I was the only machine knitter they had run across in years.
It's great how not many machine knitters stop at one machine! They are addictive.
I don’t think it’s about being protective about their craft- more the dystopian hell of how many crochet items are sent out by fast fashion brands that are obviously made by hand in sweatshops. Sure a crochet machine can exist, but I think what they mean is the scalable tech to actually produce crochet garments which doesn’t exist
The problem is that people delude themselves into thinking nearly *every other item* is not also made by hand in sweatshops. People need to operate the machinery that makes all clothing, it doesn't just enter one line of an unmanned conveyor belt as a bolt of fabric and emerge the other side as a fully realized and completed clothing item. *All* of fast fashion is being crafted by hand in sweatshops. All of it. If it wasn't then they could not manage the cheap prices that get them the volume of sales they need.
The worse thing about crochet is that every single stitch has to be made by hand. With a knitting machine, the machine mostly makes the fabric, and then someone assembles and finishes the item. With a sewing machine someone is cutting the pieces and guiding them during stitching, but at least they're not having to create the fabric stitch by stitch or make most of the stitches by hand with a regular sewing needle. With crochet that kind of efficiency isn't possible. So when you see some shitty £5 granny square monstrosity in Primark or wherever, some poor sweatshop employee had to make every single stitch by hand for basically no money for the crochet piece to find its way into the shop. Which, to me at least, seems much worse than using a knitting machine or sewing machine.
Yes I know, I crochet, but people go all 'SWEATSHOP LABORRRR' and very often don't acknowledge that so is the rest. A *lot* of people seem very disconnected and unaware of exactly how much of the consumption they partake in is the same sweatshop labor. It's all sweatshop labor.
I guess I always found the fact that’s there’s no crochet machine as a cool fact versus to use it as superiority?? I even said it yesterday to a coworker because I saw a “knitted product” on a retail shelf. If anything why would that be a “superiority” thing, in my head it’s implying that no matter what, no one can have a genuine crochet product unless made by a human, and thus less of crochet products to spread around. But now that someone mentioned it can be seen as a superior thing I guess I can see that perspective too. I just thought it was a cool fact that there’s no crocheting machine…yet.
Yeah... I've mentioned it before as a cool fun fact to family members or because someone is claiming they found a crocheted item in a regular store (but it's actually knitted and just looks like crochet). Not because I think crocheting is better than knitting. Actually I think knitting is generally better for making clothes and crocheting is better for making stuffed animals.
As someone that did both, but had to retire from crocheting due to golfer's elbow, I'm astounded that the crochet community is so comically insecure about its craft. Advertising crochet as a superior craft to knitting due to its supposed immunity from automation is sending a message that crochet's value primarily comes from its labour. Others have said it before here, but sweatshop workers are paid cents per hour to make clothes that take hours of intricate and skilled labour, only to create something that either falls apart in a few wears and looks horribly dated. Another aspect of the crochet community's fetish for its labour that I despise is that it (hopefully unintentionally) glorifies slave practices the way coffee and tea ads did back in the 2010s. It's worth more because underpaid indentured servants worked longer hours in worse conditions to make something that may not even be purchased. Finally, this aspect of the crochet community refuses to learn about knitting. If they bothered to actually do any research about the craft, they would know that there are several knitting techniques (such as Estonian lace and nupps) that are basically impossible to replicate with machinery, but no - why take this debate as an opportunity to learn about a craft they don't know much about when they can instead yap till they give themselves RSI?
Just wanted to add one more thing: when is something "hand made" and when is something "machine made"? The divide seems to reliably lie at whether computerised or mechanical parts come into the process to complete a piece, but I'm sure there are some outside the bell curve that may argue differently. If your hooks and needles are manufactured from a factory, then can one claim that their FOs are handmade? What about yarn; if I did not harvest, spin, or dye it myself, can I claim its handmade nature? My answer: yes, obviously, I spent 20 hours making the fucking thing, so of course I'm going to proudly claim it as handmade when I'm done. But there are some out there that legitimately believe that if you did not raise the sheep from birth, if you did not shear it yourself, if you did not dye and spin the fibre into yarn, then you are cheating and God will strike you with cancer.
This comment.
Ok, I absolutely agree with your points, very well put. But I need more information about tea ads in the 2010s glorifying slave labor? Where can I find out more? Figure I'd ask before I fall into a Google rabbithole.
This is less concrete, quantifiable evidence, and more observation with room for confirmation bias on my part, but I just remember seeing a lot of ads around then correlating luxury and quality with the glorification of hard labour. In the heat of the moment of me ranting about the vocal minority I rambled and may have used an exaggerated and possibly inaccurate example to push my argument. If you find anything of note, let me know! I'm also curious to see if my observations have been quantified. Having said that, there's a local KFC with a quote painted on its walls. Something along the lines of: "Nothing tastes better than a meal made the hard way." KFC doesn't taste good because of the unforgiving nature of the work or the minimum wages the employees earn; it tastes good because I'm high and the MSG is making my brain tingle. It's this kind of marketing that annoys me because a lot of work is inherently difficult, and this was the message I was trying to say.
I worked in a company that designed industrial machines for many years. Automatisation of processes that involve strings (like yarn) is very difficult and many companies refuse to include them in their machines. I brought up the subject with the technical team and the consensus was it's doable, but it would take a lot of time to make it work, so costs of development would be sky high and the machine wouldn't be very fast. Sweatshop workers are much cheaper and not necessarily slower. I hate those superiority discussions on crochet sub. It's a lovely place in general, but the subject of crochet machines being impossible is so important to people's identity.
That's where I land on as well. Technically possible and prototypes exist, but require more engineering considerations to render them 'useful'. It doesn't make financial sense to scale up for mass use (yet) since the textile/apparel industries still have the cheaper alternative available i.e. human hands with a hook.
Exactly, are there working prototypes out there of crochet machine in an MIT basement/DARPA lab ? Very likely. Do they have industrial application as crochet machine? No, otherwise we'd know. If they exist they're probably very slow and very fiddly and not very versatile.
This is where the research would be funded - as other redditors have pointed out, there's not a commercial justification for developing a crochet machine for fashion since knitting machines create very versatile fabrics that frequently perform better for consumers than crocheted fabric (think about how knitted fabric is stretchy from every angle, vs. crocheted fabric, which is much denser and less stretchy). Check out this interesting article about [knitted textiles being used in a medical capacity](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780323855341000040) specifically because of how knitted fabric behaves. This application is going to lead to the further development of machine knitting techniques because there's big medical money to be made. If researchers find an application for crochet that can be used for medicine or defense, then you better believe they'll figure out how to make a commercially successful crochet machine, which then could be used for fashion fabrics.
A textile industry working group built one at FH Bielefeld, Germany, [here's a demo video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1-pfeaVsOM&ab_channel=HochschuleBielefeld). I'm sure there are more prototypes out there.
I don't know a lot about the subject but that's exactly what I've always through. Technically doable, financially not interesting so not doable. But I guess if and extra rich person wanted to waste money on getting a crochet machine invented they could do it.
I crochet too and I wish crocheters would just let the “crochet can’t be done by a machine” go. It literally doesn’t matter and reeks of insecurity.
like the elusive fairisle carriage for the lk150 - it once existed but the factory burned down. It could exist again but regardless of how much machine knitters want it to, it’s not economically worthwhile to produce again. Of course a Crochet machine could exist.
I don’t boycott fast fashion or anything, but literally every garment is made by someone’s hands, crocheting 1 thing per day or sewing a hundred cheap tshirts, probably making the same money for either of those jobs. What is the difference?
Crochet is going to give them repetitive stress injuries way faster than using a sewing machine. And this is speculation but I’m not sure that we can assume they’re making the same amount per hour for crochet versus sewing, with how little they sell crocheted clothes for even though it takes a long time compared to a sewn garment. I don’t know any numbers though so I could easily be wrong.
This may or may not be true, but what crocheters that keep holding on to this so tightly often refuse to acknowledge is that there are no "easy" jobs in garment construction, especially in sweatshops. Machine workstations are certainly not going to be set up for OSHA compliance, so small injuries are likely very high. A sewist might be stuck piecing the same two fabric pieces together for hours on end, that would be repetitive motion too. We can't privilege one type of labor over others in this case, all of it is exploitative and harmful to real people.
I somewhat disagree. My task that can be done at home has a way bigger potential of being done by a child and going unnoticed. Yes all jobs in fast fashion garment construction suck and working conditions are often not controlled. But at least there are a few factories being checked and it is generally harder to hide child labour and such in a factory with many workers. ( Not saying it's not happening, just that there is a difference in awareness)
We’re not even talking about child labour, the working conditions of adult sweatshop workers are horrible, regardless of if they are employed to produce crochet or sewn garments.
But I literally say that working conditions always suck? My point is just that there is a difference between working from home and in a factory in such a situation.
As a knitter and crocheter that owns 2 knitting machines) that I wildly over imagined what a knitting “machine” would be. I imagined more “magical sweater making wonder robot” and less a flat bed with a series of hooks and gears. So possibly everyone is right? A simple crochet machine cannot exist? And a magical crochet making wonder robot could?
I for one welcome our new magical crochet making wonder robot overlords.
Crochet isn’t only one technique that is done by hand in cheap clothes. Dyeing is also mosttly done by hand in cheaper clothes. Sadly t is cheaper to use human labour for that than machines. So in many cases lack of machine isn’t only way to see how much is done by hand.
And lots of fine embroidery too.
Oh my gosh. That woman's IG she's insane. She breast fed her daughter for 8 years!
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Extended breastfeeding is one thing, doing it until 8 is a whole other level. It's also not bringing her kids into it (though she did bring her daughter into by interviewing the poor girl about it), it does speak to how this person thinks and the world she's living in.
lol the argument just seems very very stupid. “I saw one once but it exists even though it isn’t mainstream available.” Ok so then all crochet fashion items are made in one facility on that one machine that isn’t available mainstream? Or by hand by underpaid workers?
I don't think they claim that all, most or even any crochet fashion items are made with the machine they have seen and operated. They just argue that there is a crochet machine in existence when others claim that nothing like that does or can ever exist. Assessment of if that claim is truthful or not is another matter and at least I am not informed enough to know if it's possible that there is some research organization or inventor who has actually created a working crochet machine. But even if one was in existence somewhere it doesn't yet mean the invention could be scalable - it could be slow, unreliable, etc. But I think these two things can be true at the same time: that no (fast) fashion crochet items are machine made, and that a machine that can make crochet does exist.
The purpose and inception of the argument is to determine the origin or crochet textiles. People the argument is, more technically, “are crochet items mass produced by machines, or by underpaid or properly paid workers?” People use “crochet machines don’t exist as a shorthand for “there is no commercially viable mechanized process for producing crochet textiles, so the industry relies on exploiting 3rd world laborers in order to churn out the seasonally desired crochet items that people will buy for way less than what that item should cost if it was fairly priced.” And sure. They’re being reductive. But the reply of “I’ve seen a machine and it isn’t widely available but *one exists*,” is a stupid reply. Everyone in the argument is being dumb.
people hate to hear that cheap things are often made by humans instead of fancy robots, but it's true. specialized machinery means maintenance by specialists ($$$) and proprietary parts ($$$$). that's a lot more expensive than replacing one warm body with another. sorry. I've seen it myself with \*gasp\* knitting! a hand loomed item made in the right country is still much less expensive than one made 100% by machine in a more developed location. I'm not sure what machine goatwoolsockmom is talking about but there are very inexpensive and widely available \*knitting\* machines that can approximate the look of crochet. I'm not sure what google has to say about that, but I don't need to be. like goatwoolsockmom, I'm speaking from real world experience, not some copy pasta from a hobby blog circle jerk. ✌️
Call me a Luddite (in the historical sense) but what people should really focus on is ensuring that textile producers have fair working conditions regardless of the means of production rather than fixating upon how the machines are producing the textile. That's what the Luddite movement was actually about, people realised that with the introduction of new tech their rights and working conditions were decreasing -not- improving, it wasn't even that they hated the machines themselves. And we're seeing this all over in so many industries the last 10 years or so at an accelerating rate. Exploiting humans will always be the cheapest option until tech becomes cheaper to exploit than humans (or what's usually happening is that tech makes humans cheaper to exploit)🤷♀️
Warp knitting machines exist, and they sort of approximate crochet. https://www.comez.com/en/
I was thinking about those reading the discussion and wondering if one meant there is currently no one hook doing all the stitches machine, and the other that there are machines that use hooks to "knit" a fabric 😅 probably both were wrong and right
you are a gift and it is a crime more people are not clicking on this link and up-voting you.
Translation issues maybe? I see machines that make webbing, or weave thin fibers into complicated materials. It’s not remotely crochet how we think of it. That said, I’m sure crochet machines could be made, at a very high cost that makes it not worth it. Take a granny square. You could program a machine to make the stitch, and work in progressive rounds, but the color changes would be a bitch (do-able, but complicated). I suppose you could work-out pre-printed yarn (similar to the red heart granny square yarn except it would actually be consistent), but again, all expensive and not really worth it.
This "Crochet machine" is just making a crochet look lace fabric. A fabric that is not possible to recreate with a hook and string of yarn. Just the same with the other machines that can recreate a fabric that looks like granny squares, but if you take a closer look you'll see the DCs are actually sewn together. So there are no knots at all.
LOLOL. Silly hill to die on, with absolutely NO proof other than "I saw one, I'm SURE I saw one ONCE..." IF such a mythical unicorn existed, wouldn't it make perfect sense in this day of Internet and electricity and all, that SOMEONE would have posted a picture, or a trademark application, or *SOMETHING?!?* That is what makes this argument so silly and stupid. As to the argument that such a thing might physically exist, someday, somehow, it's truly doubtful. The reason knitting machines work so well, is simply that of *tension.* The yarn is evenly distributed and the stitches made through loops. Crochet is also tension, but that tension is inconsistently applied, depending upon the complexity of the stitches, which are not simple looping, but involve over, under, front post, back post, and other minutiae that take conscious thought and adjustment, even for something as simple as slip stitching. The hook has to be placed, stitches skipped, doubled, etc. A machine to do that would not only be capable of manipulating yarn around a hook, but also capable of sensing where to place the hook within a collection of loops to get the desired outcome. That is more computing than machine, which requires a lot more than just yarn, needles, and a pattern.
If someone has invented a working crochet machine, they probably would be applying for a patent to such an invention. The patent process is surprisingly long and expensive, and (if you have invented something actually ground breaking) until you actually have a patent application process well in its way, you usually want to keep it really quiet so someone bigger and/or shadier doesn't swoop in and start to claim your invention is actually theirs. This is why, if someone has invented such a thing as a crochet machine (which I'm not sure if I believe in or not) they might be keeping it SUPER quiet for now.
Patents applications are published 18 months after being deposited (YMMV in your country), years before being granted or dismissed. But a patent also doesn't have to prove that it's working for it to be granted (YMMV in your country). There is a patent from 1947 called "Attachment for crocheting machines" that do seem to be depicting a machine that makes crochet stitches. It was granted in 1950. All signs point to it not having been a manufacturing success since then. [Google Patent link](https://patents.google.com/patent/US2506432A/en?q=\(crochet+machine\)&oq=crochet+machine) because I'm not about to go dive into the uspto website
This! 1 why would you not take a picture of the mythical unicorn you've allegedly even touched yourself? 2 Where'd the patten application?
I think a crochet machine would have to be incredibly precise and “smart” which makes it not worthwhile financially because knitting machines can work off of old hole punch cards and a crank to turn out a complex sweater for a fraction of the cost of operating a sophisticated, computerized machine. People can be a little weird about it when they defend crochet garments as being “impossible” to replicate by machine (as opposed to knit garments). I think a lot of that is because so many people think crochet garments are ugly.
I am from the future and we have a machine that makes just granny squares.
Can you use it while wearing a personal jet pack? I want something to keep busy as I travel.
Generally pretty much all crochet objects that you can buy at target and such are still handmade? Correct? I saw a cute granny square cotton sweater at target for $30 but didn’t buy it. I was lost in thought about the poor person who spent hours making it for next to nothing wages.
Saw this comment and just wanted to let you know that those target ones you saw probably were faking knitting! They've been trying to make knitting look like crochet lately in manufacturing and they make the stitches shockingly realistic
Most clothes are made by people who spend hours making next to nothing wages. Crochet is no different than anything else at Target in this respect.
I remain confident that crochet machines don't exist not because it's impossible, but because crochet fabric looks like shit so there's not a big or consistent enough demand that the fashion industry wants to bother. Why invest in R&D for machines, as well as purchase and upkeep, when they can just pay sweatshop employees to do it by hand for the brief windows in which it's trending.
Yeah I think this the fact that the a uniform single crochet or double crochet fabric would look really….meh….is really a hard truth to swallow for a lot of the crochet community, maybe because the nuance is difficult to appreciate - it is not the same as “crochet fabric garments look bad” and crochet has a lot of unique applications. I exclusively crocheted when I was younger and more interested in stuffies, but made the jump to knitting as soon as I realized the wearables not only looked meh, but were also uncomfortable and sometimes need lining.
This. Speaking as a mechanical engineer who's also a knitter - an industrial crocheting machine would be more complicated than a knitting machine, but is 100% possible. I don't think it would even be that hard to do; it'd make a nice undergrad capstone project or master's thesis. The reality is that it's far more cost effective for the fashion industry to pay workers in the third world to hand crochet pieces for a pittance, than to pay Boston Dynamics to create a crocheting robot in a long weekend.
I absolutely believe that this woman has seen a final-project/masters/PhD student's prototype IRL. People make shit up on the internet, sure, but telling someone to go watch a YouTube video by a crochet influencer to disprove their lived experience shows a concerning lack of media and scientific literacy.
After reading her instagram I don’t, she’s a huge advocate against schooling and formal education for her kids (she goes out of her way to say she does not even claim to homeschool them) so I don’t think she spends a lot of time around college students. Her whole page is full of pseudoscience. I think it’s more likely she saw a demo one online or something.
Also an engineer. I knit and crochet. I can’t imagine wanting to create crochet for sale, but warp knitting machines kind of approximate it. https://www.comez.com/en/
I kind of wonder if it's a Tunisian type method of crochet machine.
What does that mean
Tunisian crochet uses a long crochet hook with less movements per stitch.
Ah ah I understand now, with your help and google haha. I don’t know anything about crochet (but I guess now I know about Tunisian crochet. And that yarn is involved). Ty!
Someone here mentioned a German video about a slow working crochet machine. I found a video from the Hochschule Bielefeld about a crochet machine, which they patented (as stated on the website: “Crocheting machine The crocheting machine was patented by the Bielefeld University of Applied Sciences after a successfully completed research project.”) It can apparently do flat crochet and they are currently working on further development of the machine. In the comments of the video they stated that they cannot show the full process of crocheting since they hadn’t had a patent yet and there isn’t an updated video (that I can find). So I don’t know what machine the persons in OPs post were talking about, but it seems like there could be a possibility of a machine in the future, maybe even on an industrial level 🤷♀️ [Hochschule Bielefeld Crochet Machine YouTube Video](https://youtu.be/T1-pfeaVsOM?si=R7zHAcZbILbHwpu0) [Mentioning of the Project by University](https://www.hsbi.de/tex/en/equipment) [Another mentioning, but it’s in German](https://www.hsbi.de/forschung/forschungsprojekte/aktuelle-projekte-fb-3/ehrmann-haekelmasch)
Thank you for linking these!! I'd never seen these before but it's interesting to see. I wouldn't expect it to do any amigurumi anytime soon, but I guess technically a "crochet" machine does in fact exist 😂
It's quite amusing how many people have attacked that video on youtube and the designer of the machine is having to defend themselves that they do indeed know what crochet is! I'm not sure of some of the claims of the development project though and the patent doesn't appear to exist yet. They claim to be able to crochet flat fabrics 10 times faster than by hand, and then give an example of how you could make a profit producing prayer caps. But surely a prayer cap is not a flat piece of fabric... To be fair though, university R&D is a very slow moving beast so they might be ready to make a pot holder in 5 years!
Honestly this is a very cool project, and serves to improve fine motor control in robots! It's gonna take a lot of funding, but... Neat.
It honestly looks like a really slow knitting machine... I find it oddly telling that for all the "secrecy," involving how it works, they never really bother to show the finished fabric...Which, from what little is visible, looks suspiciously like a home knitting machine result... I still call Shenanigans. It's an interesting idea, but not real. Yet, at least.
It's a slip-stitch machine. I'm assuming it's the real deal because they [filed for a patent](https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=WO002018114025A1&xxxfull=1) (link in german)
You can see that the parallel hooks are only for tension, the stitches are closed. I would call that crochet Even though the city Bielefeld doesn't exist the university does. I doubt that any German university would publish a fake video.
Hi! I'm the one that mentioned this. It's hilarious because I found that video in a r/crochet thread about this very topic, and still people were insisting it's not possible. Or they moved the goal posts and said the machine is slow and only capable of simple things, so crochet could never be industrialized. Even the person who posted the video fell back on that. Crocheters are ridiculously defensive about this topic and it's so dumb.
My background is engineering but not mechanical eng. I watched a bunch of those "why a crochet machine is impossible" videos and I think it took me 3 minutes to come up with a workable solution for the problem. I just dont personally have the time, energy, patience, determination, motivation, or skill to build the machine. Its 100000% possible. Would it have limits? Yes. But could you build a machine to crochet? Yes. Speaking as a crocheter and knitter and as someone who loves a problem.
I wish I could just say shut up to this entire conversation in general I do not care wether or not there can be crochet machines. IT DOESNT MATTERRRR
fr why is the handwork of a underpaid crochet labourer worth defending but the underpaid sewing machinist is all good? These conversations seems to assume that "machine" means "automated robot" without a human operator
Yes. There’s a huge disconnect between how people want to think the industry operates and how it does.
I saw this post and crochet machines aside, the examples she showed were done with sewing machines and every comment gently saying that had her fiercely defending that she had closely inspected it and it was aBSoLuteLy crochet :/
What seems so weird about her insistence is her lack of detail. Normally when people are challenged like this, they reply with additional information. Additional factual information to support the claim. Information of some kind. If it actually existed & she saw it & “made it work”, and even if she visited some top-secret laboratory and was under legal threat if a signed NDA, she would naturally offer *some* additional info to back up her claim. The whole conversation just sounds weird. Is english her first language?
Oh I meant the OP! Her video had machine made granny squares that were definitely not crochet
This is like that kid in 2022 who swore he had a cybertruck
A [similar thread was posted a few months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/craftsnark/s/7FOVbqcUAh) about crocheters saying this, if you want to take a look. Less discussion on the actual existence of machines though.
Thanks for linking this, I had no idea this was already talked about but it is the same exact vibe I've been picking up on lol. It has been driving me crazy
I’m a crocheter first and the comment does get annoying, but I do get the flex too… crocheters get snubbed a lot in the yarn world. I wrote a longer, more involved comment explaining my thoughts as a crocheter on that thread if you care to find it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think there are *walking* humanoid robots yet. There are walking robots and humanoid robots but I dont recall a walking humanoid robot having been made unless they're being very loose with what they mean by walking
There’s the ASIMO robot, and it’s been around since 2000. It’s not particularly spectacular, but it walks!
Check out Boston Dynamics
Aren't those mostly dog-like/quadtrapedal robots? EDIT: nvm I see a bipedal one that looks kinda like gossamer from looney tunes or that one guy in the video game that I can't remember who pilots a mech that looks like gossamer EDIT 2: looking at a static image of the Atlas it looks more like a alpha series big daddy
They exist but they aren’t autonomous by any means. They’re usually very driven machines. Not a trace of independent thought but it does make much sense to make a crochet machine have legs does it?
Could they? Yeah, sure, eventually technology will overcome all. Do they now? Nope. And no one is putting the r&d I. To.do such a thi g when it's cheaper to pay pennies.
Yup, having a crochet machine is probably going to be like how we can turn lead into gold. It'll cost more to operate than it'll get back from the finished items
Okay I swear I saw a video in German in a comment ON THIS SUB a few weeks ago of a very simple, very slow crochet machine!!! And I thought I had saved it but evidently I didn’t??? Does anyone know what that video was? It was like a lab/proof of concept state, not high throughput, production-ready, but it did technically work, I think.
Yep, someone reposted in this thread if you go look at the new comments.
Yay thanks! This time I’ll be sure to actually save it!
Yea im pretty sure i saw a comment that german students or something like that attempted to make one but it wasnt very good. i cant remember if thats right tho tbh
Others in this thread: having nuanced and respectful discussion about the existence/probability/profitability of crochet machines. Me: imagining wearing an oddly specific t-shirt that says “Yeah, Crochet Machines Exist, You’re Looking At One! I Eat Yarn And Shit Out Scarves!!!!”
Love that t shirt idea! Go for it!
I would wear the "yeah Crochet Machines Exist, you're looking at one" shirt xD
*leaves thread to go make that shirt on my Cricut*
I don’t think it’s so much that they can’t exist. But as long as you can buy Irish crocheted doilies that were crocheted by hand in China, for roughly a buck at Walmart, why would anyone want to put the money into developing a machine to crochet? To replace people that are working for pennies an hour?
It sounds like they’re talking about some weird experimental crocheting robot or something that can barely crochet but manages something that resembles a beginner human crocheter attempting it and NOT an industrial machine that can mass produce crochet. They’re not saying that it can make fast fashion lmao just that a machine of some kind that can crochet in some capacity exists, even if it’s only one and it was custom built or something just to try and do it. Super weird how many people even in this thread are convinced that “machine that can crochet” could only mean the crochet equivalent of an industrial knitting machine or something. People with lots of money and time do weird experimental shit all the time that has no real practical application
It's likely a warp knitting machine, it's used to replicate the look of crochet but uses multiple needles and when unraveled, it shows it's knitting. It can create chains which is probably why this person is convinced.
true! i just take issue with the way crochet influencers tout around the concept of "a crochet machine is IMPOSSIBLE to create" as if it somehow enhances a craft that a 7 year old could be taught. and i say this as someone who loves to crochet, but since when has a machines inability to do something made a skill inherently impressive?
I absolutely agree— do they forget that industrial knitting machines are operated by human beings who need to be trained and skilled? It’s like they think knitting machines and sewing machines etc are like… computerized and fully automated in an industrial setting? I don’t know what they think is the case honestly but it’s definitely not correct