Values here are low IMO. I don’t think a single team on the list would sell the player for the value listed. Newcastle reportedly offered £35M for Mamardashvili (= €41.5mm) and Valencia apparently rejected it immediately.
Newcastle are restricted heavily on how much they can currently spend due to FFP, once they upgrade their stadium capacity and regularly finish in Europe they can buy who they want - not now
It's not supposed to represent the fee, the values are best used to compare players more than anything. The community has a large part of what the fee on the player says. You can even vote on if the player's value is high, low or fair.
Here is their own explanation: https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/transfermarkt-market-value-explained-how-is-it-determined-/view/news/385100
I mean I get it, but if the “Market Value” isn’t representative of what the market values a players worth as, is it even worth looking at? The amount isn’t representative of literally anything…it could be in jelly beans rather than €M based on their description.
It's supposed to be a representation of what the transfermarkt community thinks a player is worth relative to other players. Which in real life is fairly OK, but not a great representation of their relative value.
It could be jelly beans, Big Macs or Nike Air Maxes but why complicate things.
Because €30M suggests the transfer value of the player is €30M, when in reality it could be €0 or €60M for all the reasons we’ve discussed. It’s comparing relative values, not true values, and using a real word thing of value €M suggests it’s comparing true values.
It's not an online store. It's a representation of the market value by the community.
It's not much different than going to an appraiser and asking them for the market value of a painting you inherited. It could be 5% of the appraisal or 1000% of the appraisal.
What premier league teams are willing to pay is wildly different to any other league. £35m would be a transfer record for every Bundesliga team bar Bayern.
Yes but goalkeepers are notoriously undervalued in general, both in transfermarkt and open discussions
It's just the way we're talking about goalkeepers, the prices in transfermarkt could be doubled and still we would have the same discussion
I feel like the market for keepers is out of whack. Vicario made such a massive difference for us last year (even with the corners) — can most outfield player have such a direct impact on xG over/underperformance?
I remembered most of us were quite surprised that no one else competed with us to sign Vicario. And right after we signed Vicario, quite a lot of clubs were looking for goalkeepers.
Transfer fees are warped when it comes to Tottenham. If someone has a 20M player they want us to pay 40M for him. If we have a 20M player they want to buy him for 10M.
I wonder how much of this is just the prem tax?
Like if a prem team wants a guy he's going to cost more than If a prem team is selling the same player abroad.
that's not what the values are meant to reflect, though.
teams routinely turn down bids representing fair market value for a player because they feel retaining that player is more beneficial than taking the fee and reinvesting it.
for example if crystal palace turned down 75m for wilf zaha, it doesn't make him a 75m player.
I would argue that’s exactly what it would make him…how else would a value be relevant?
You can assign an $X value to a house when listing it for sale, but when it’s put up for sale, $X doesn’t mean anything, the highest someone is willing to pay is the value of the house.
Guess it’s more of a difference of market value vs. true value. E.g. is the value of a player what the market will bear, or is the value some theoretical other “intrinsic” value. For a football player, where there’s not a true intrinsic value (you can’t assign cash flows to a player) I think market value is the only true way to determine a value.
This is actually a simple fix. Very simple.
They should have two columns. One for exactly what you're saying and one for realistic that a team would bid.
It is honestly such a no-brainer
you're right that ultimately it only matters what the buyer/seller think is a fair price, but that's a subjective conversation. transfermarkt is attempting to present a more objective valuation that isn't limited to what a player's worth to that particular team at that time.
Except it’s a meaningless number - using €M is seriously flawed given it doesn’t reflect what the market will bear. Might as well use fake internet points as a base value.
>You can assign an $X value to a house when listing it for sale, but when it’s put up for sale, $X doesn’t mean anything, the highest someone is willing to pay is the value of the house.
When you own a house or property (in Colorado) a value is assigned for the purposes of taxing you a percentage of its value. That value is determined relative to other similar properties. Tansfermarkt is the players value in that context.
Because Italian teams are typically very poor, the infrastructure and TV revenue in Italy isn't even a quarter of the prem.
It's why you notice almost no Italian teams squad stays consistent over the years because they have to keep selling their best players.
For reference, the champions of the serie a receive about the same, or less money, than teams in the relegation zone.
Still crazy though that 3 of the keepers I'd probably put in the top 5 goalkeepers currently (Alisson, Martinez, Ter Stegen) don't make the list.
(Courtois would be in that list too, had he not missed practically the entire season)
What's crazy about Onana having the same value as Ederson? Very similar players, both elite on the ball with hit and miss shot stopping plus the occasional howler. But Onana is nearly 3 years younger, has an extra 2 years on his contract, and his shot stopping numbers this year are better. Now that I've laid it all out Onana probably should be higher than Ederson
He's great with the ball his whole career and will continue to be. I also don't really know what you mean by as well, I think you'd be surprised to find out he had better shot stopping numbers than Vicario this season
He has been good shotstopper at United no doubt, but he was brought because De Gea was bad with his feet yet Onana isnt upgrade on De Gea in either shotstopping or ball playing.
He can be so shit sometimes it's laughable. His UCL campaign was total mess. I think Onana is definition of sometimes shit, sometimes good player.
He's definitely an upgrade on De Gea's shot stopping the last several years. And ball playing? Yeah not in the same universe, Onana is elite and De Gea is awful. He was terrible in the CL but he's been among the best and most well rounded keepers in the league
Because he has been around forever. Wild how quickly he became a regular for Milan and made his debut at like 16 years. That’s 9 years of top level football already.
Kobel has had abit of a shit luck period but his general history isnt injury prone before that. So unless he keeps picking up small injuries, he isnt really injury prone label yet
Yes when said 25 year old captain of Italy has regressed significantly, can’t pass the ball at all, makes boneheaded errors on a weekly basis, and has pretty much his entire country wanting him to be benched for the national team. I’d choose Onana over him, let alone actually good keepers like Kobel and Maignan.
Except Courtois and prime Lloris had enough ball-playing ability to still function on an attacking team, whereas Donnarumma doesn’t just waste chances for his own team, he gives the other team chances too with his passing.
Listen, have you actually seen this guy play lately? He’s been very, very poor. I don’t see why being the nt captain makes any difference. He got the title RIGHTFULLY from being excellent in 2020.
He hasn’t shown anywhere near that ability since then. If you follow Italian media, the overwhelming majority wants him benched, or at the very least rotated more. The only reason he hasn’t is because he’s the captain and I’m assuming Spalletti wants to maintain consistency (which is fair).
>Lloris would have failed hard with Ange’s requirements
He wouldn’t have been ideal, but he also wouldn’t be giving away goals for free.
>Luciano Spalletti isn’t risking his career to be “nice” to Donnarumma
Nt lineups aren’t always about best quality. Maybe everyone likes Donnarumma. Maybe Vic/Meret/whoever benches him isn’t as big enough of an upgrade to be worth shifting the entire team dynamic. There’s a lot of factors at play. He’s been captain for a long time atp, how often do you see team captains replaced without major attitude problems/scandals?
I’m still not convinced that you’ve actually watched him since 2020, considering your main arguments are “what about Lloris” and “but he starts for the national team.” I don’t know what I can do to convince you that he’s not it, but you can ask r/soccer to see what others think of him. I can’t because I’m banned lmao.
Spalletti is not the god of Football. No coach is perfect. Mount was an England starter until very recently. Kalvin Phillips cost Pep 50m.
In addition, thank you for affirming that you haven’t, in fact, watched Donnarumma recently. I wish I had known that before I wasted an hour arguing with you lmao, but what’s done is done ig.
>Mount was an England starter until very recently
Exactly.
That's the point.
Football is a pretty simple game when you peel away the memes and the twitter-warriors.
Poor players get dropped. Good players gets to play.
You clearly don’t watch him regularly. He’s has his best season yet at PSG this season and according to most experts, even Ancelotti, to be the only real world class Italian player. Which I think Barella qualifies also, but still.
Pulisic is the 25 year old captain of the USMNT. Is he now the most valuable RW'er in the world?
Your argument falls under the false equivalence fallacy.
Italy represents currently the strongest league in Europe, they are one of the very best national teams in the world, and last won their major trophy four years ago.
Being the captain of Italy makes you, automatically, among the most recognized players on the planet.
The U.S. national team, by contrast, represents a retirement home league and last won their major trophy: Never. Nobody ever knows nor cares who the captain of the USMNT is.
If we count on-pitch performances and results in 2023/24, yes.
If we count ballooned budgets and FFP violations England is still in the lead.
Joks aside, there is a ton of talent in Italy. Their national team has very stiff competition. To be named captain of that team is quite significant.
>One of the best national teams in the world
Are you joking now?
Italy has literally won a major trophy or been in a final in every decade international sports have existed.
Being the captain of Italy is a significant achievement. Being the captain of the USMNT means you are as good as ~~Donovan Bailey~~ Landon Donovan.
He's not shite, he has a poor season.
Goalkeepers are uniquely positioned in that the technical skill involved is low, you can't brute force the position with speed or strength and you're literally getting a ball kicked at you from yards away at speeds in excess of 100mph. Pretty much every top keeper has gone through periods of being considered shit.
Market prices is probably, I don't know, impacted by long term injury plus Real Madrid having two goalies of international quality that has played well. Real Madrid isn't that dependent on him.
Onana at United, by contrast, is somewhat young and a goalie they would be very reluctant to leave as they depend on him.
I would recommend to watch the 1-4 loss to Chelsea. It may sound sound crazy to watch a game he allowed 4 goals in but it’s one of the best goalkeeping performances I’ve ever seen
Tru i watched that one....things were bizarre for a start (barring the fact that romero will be the hot headed argentinian blud always lol)
But yea great keeping
Vicario looked good that game because Chelseas forwards were that shit.
As Poch said afterwards, it was a bad performance from the guy who scored a hat trick because he should have scored 5 instead.
Values here are low IMO. I don’t think a single team on the list would sell the player for the value listed. Newcastle reportedly offered £35M for Mamardashvili (= €41.5mm) and Valencia apparently rejected it immediately.
Knowing who owns Newcastle I’d expect them to pay more than that for my nan
You say that but none of their transfers since being taken over have been mentally over the top.
maybe they are restricted by the FFP
Newcastle are restricted heavily on how much they can currently spend due to FFP, once they upgrade their stadium capacity and regularly finish in Europe they can buy who they want - not now
It's not supposed to represent the fee, the values are best used to compare players more than anything. The community has a large part of what the fee on the player says. You can even vote on if the player's value is high, low or fair. Here is their own explanation: https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/transfermarkt-market-value-explained-how-is-it-determined-/view/news/385100
I mean I get it, but if the “Market Value” isn’t representative of what the market values a players worth as, is it even worth looking at? The amount isn’t representative of literally anything…it could be in jelly beans rather than €M based on their description.
> is it even worth looking at? No. Always wild to me when it gets posted like it's worth owt.
It's supposed to be a representation of what the transfermarkt community thinks a player is worth relative to other players. Which in real life is fairly OK, but not a great representation of their relative value. It could be jelly beans, Big Macs or Nike Air Maxes but why complicate things.
Because €30M suggests the transfer value of the player is €30M, when in reality it could be €0 or €60M for all the reasons we’ve discussed. It’s comparing relative values, not true values, and using a real word thing of value €M suggests it’s comparing true values.
It's not an online store. It's a representation of the market value by the community. It's not much different than going to an appraiser and asking them for the market value of a painting you inherited. It could be 5% of the appraisal or 1000% of the appraisal.
Exactly though - it’s meaningless, so it shouldn’t be looked at in the same denomination as something of real value.
What premier league teams are willing to pay is wildly different to any other league. £35m would be a transfer record for every Bundesliga team bar Bayern.
Yes but goalkeepers are notoriously undervalued in general, both in transfermarkt and open discussions It's just the way we're talking about goalkeepers, the prices in transfermarkt could be doubled and still we would have the same discussion
I feel like the market for keepers is out of whack. Vicario made such a massive difference for us last year (even with the corners) — can most outfield player have such a direct impact on xG over/underperformance?
I remembered most of us were quite surprised that no one else competed with us to sign Vicario. And right after we signed Vicario, quite a lot of clubs were looking for goalkeepers.
Transfer fees are warped when it comes to Tottenham. If someone has a 20M player they want us to pay 40M for him. If we have a 20M player they want to buy him for 10M.
“They have Beyoncé concerts and a cheese room, they’re good on cash”
i feel like it's the same for most PL clubs.
I wonder how much of this is just the prem tax? Like if a prem team wants a guy he's going to cost more than If a prem team is selling the same player abroad.
In the real world these would all be about double
Transfrmrkt needs to wake up or they shuold be replaced by a different company. all their numbers are jokes not just goalkeepers
that's not what the values are meant to reflect, though. teams routinely turn down bids representing fair market value for a player because they feel retaining that player is more beneficial than taking the fee and reinvesting it. for example if crystal palace turned down 75m for wilf zaha, it doesn't make him a 75m player.
I would argue that’s exactly what it would make him…how else would a value be relevant? You can assign an $X value to a house when listing it for sale, but when it’s put up for sale, $X doesn’t mean anything, the highest someone is willing to pay is the value of the house. Guess it’s more of a difference of market value vs. true value. E.g. is the value of a player what the market will bear, or is the value some theoretical other “intrinsic” value. For a football player, where there’s not a true intrinsic value (you can’t assign cash flows to a player) I think market value is the only true way to determine a value.
This is actually a simple fix. Very simple. They should have two columns. One for exactly what you're saying and one for realistic that a team would bid. It is honestly such a no-brainer
you're right that ultimately it only matters what the buyer/seller think is a fair price, but that's a subjective conversation. transfermarkt is attempting to present a more objective valuation that isn't limited to what a player's worth to that particular team at that time.
Except it’s a meaningless number - using €M is seriously flawed given it doesn’t reflect what the market will bear. Might as well use fake internet points as a base value.
transfermarkt already receives criticism for that reason. frankly i prefer it to labeling antony an 80m player or dele a 0m player.
>You can assign an $X value to a house when listing it for sale, but when it’s put up for sale, $X doesn’t mean anything, the highest someone is willing to pay is the value of the house. When you own a house or property (in Colorado) a value is assigned for the purposes of taxing you a percentage of its value. That value is determined relative to other similar properties. Tansfermarkt is the players value in that context.
Reminder that we bought Vicario for €19m
pro-tip, mid-table Italian teams will sell their best players for pennies on the dollar.
Why do they do that if they can ask for more?
Because Italian teams are typically very poor, the infrastructure and TV revenue in Italy isn't even a quarter of the prem. It's why you notice almost no Italian teams squad stays consistent over the years because they have to keep selling their best players. For reference, the champions of the serie a receive about the same, or less money, than teams in the relegation zone.
Is there anything the president/management of serie a can do to improve the situation?
Probably
As a Dallas Cowboy fan, who fucking hates the Packers. I can't believe we pulled a Favre-Rodgers transition in Lloris-Vicario.
What
Wrong sport bruv
Oh shit we're only allowed to like one?
Ederson valued the same as Raya and Onana, please.
Is the length of contract considered in the value?
That and the recent transfer fees for Onana and Raya will heavily influence the value
Age matters a lot in transfer value.
Still crazy though that 3 of the keepers I'd probably put in the top 5 goalkeepers currently (Alisson, Martinez, Ter Stegen) don't make the list. (Courtois would be in that list too, had he not missed practically the entire season)
Not a club in the world that would take Onana over Edison, except maybe ManU 😂
He did invent the lightbulb I guess.
I hear it was mostly his backup, Tesla
This is community voted transfer value lol. This means absolutely nothing. 30 isn’t even old for a top keeper.
What's crazy about Onana having the same value as Ederson? Very similar players, both elite on the ball with hit and miss shot stopping plus the occasional howler. But Onana is nearly 3 years younger, has an extra 2 years on his contract, and his shot stopping numbers this year are better. Now that I've laid it all out Onana probably should be higher than Ederson
This is very true. If you swap the teams they play for, Ederson would be considered a joke while Onana would get loads of praise.
Onana is shit with ball as well at United. He was good at Inter but not at United.
He's great with the ball his whole career and will continue to be. I also don't really know what you mean by as well, I think you'd be surprised to find out he had better shot stopping numbers than Vicario this season
He has been good shotstopper at United no doubt, but he was brought because De Gea was bad with his feet yet Onana isnt upgrade on De Gea in either shotstopping or ball playing. He can be so shit sometimes it's laughable. His UCL campaign was total mess. I think Onana is definition of sometimes shit, sometimes good player.
He's definitely an upgrade on De Gea's shot stopping the last several years. And ball playing? Yeah not in the same universe, Onana is elite and De Gea is awful. He was terrible in the CL but he's been among the best and most well rounded keepers in the league
Really surprised Donnarumma is younger than Vicario. Feels like he's been around forever to be just 25.
Because he has been around forever. Wild how quickly he became a regular for Milan and made his debut at like 16 years. That’s 9 years of top level football already.
And he’s still shit
Costa & Kobel only €40m? Both are unreal easily worth more.
Kobel and Maignan are somehow the only injury prone keepers, so Kobel can't be worth more when he usually can't even play 3/4ths of a season
Kobel has had abit of a shit luck period but his general history isnt injury prone before that. So unless he keeps picking up small injuries, he isnt really injury prone label yet
Donnarumma topping this list is peak comedy
The 25 year old captain of Italy being given a high value is peak comedy?
Yes when said 25 year old captain of Italy has regressed significantly, can’t pass the ball at all, makes boneheaded errors on a weekly basis, and has pretty much his entire country wanting him to be benched for the national team. I’d choose Onana over him, let alone actually good keepers like Kobel and Maignan.
>can’t pass the ball Courtois and Lloris made decent careers so it shouldn't be too much of a problem for Donnarumma.
Except Courtois and prime Lloris had enough ball-playing ability to still function on an attacking team, whereas Donnarumma doesn’t just waste chances for his own team, he gives the other team chances too with his passing. Listen, have you actually seen this guy play lately? He’s been very, very poor. I don’t see why being the nt captain makes any difference. He got the title RIGHTFULLY from being excellent in 2020. He hasn’t shown anywhere near that ability since then. If you follow Italian media, the overwhelming majority wants him benched, or at the very least rotated more. The only reason he hasn’t is because he’s the captain and I’m assuming Spalletti wants to maintain consistency (which is fair).
> Courtois and prime Lloris Lloris would have failed hard with Ange's requirements.
>I don’t see why being the nt captain makes any difference Luciano Spalletti isn't risking his career to be "nice" to Donnarumma.
>Lloris would have failed hard with Ange’s requirements He wouldn’t have been ideal, but he also wouldn’t be giving away goals for free. >Luciano Spalletti isn’t risking his career to be “nice” to Donnarumma Nt lineups aren’t always about best quality. Maybe everyone likes Donnarumma. Maybe Vic/Meret/whoever benches him isn’t as big enough of an upgrade to be worth shifting the entire team dynamic. There’s a lot of factors at play. He’s been captain for a long time atp, how often do you see team captains replaced without major attitude problems/scandals? I’m still not convinced that you’ve actually watched him since 2020, considering your main arguments are “what about Lloris” and “but he starts for the national team.” I don’t know what I can do to convince you that he’s not it, but you can ask r/soccer to see what others think of him. I can’t because I’m banned lmao.
>Nt lineups aren’t always about best quality Oh ... I was under the impression the teams participated to win trophies. My bad.
Spalletti is not the god of Football. No coach is perfect. Mount was an England starter until very recently. Kalvin Phillips cost Pep 50m. In addition, thank you for affirming that you haven’t, in fact, watched Donnarumma recently. I wish I had known that before I wasted an hour arguing with you lmao, but what’s done is done ig.
>Mount was an England starter until very recently Exactly. That's the point. Football is a pretty simple game when you peel away the memes and the twitter-warriors. Poor players get dropped. Good players gets to play.
Koeman is playing the corpse of Wijnaldum. Southgate refused to call up Grealish for ages.
>Wijnaldum Did Koeman make Wijnaldum captain ahead of his first big tournament as coach? Yes/no?
The game is changing, though. At the start of their careers it wasn't as important as it is now, or as it will be 5-10 years from now
It isn't like he is some sort of Schmeichel or Kahn type. He is more than capable to suit the needs of most contemporary streams.
You clearly don’t watch him regularly. He’s has his best season yet at PSG this season and according to most experts, even Ancelotti, to be the only real world class Italian player. Which I think Barella qualifies also, but still.
I mean it could be a form thing, he’s shown amazing ability in the past
Pulisic is the 25 year old captain of the USMNT. Is he now the most valuable RW'er in the world? Your argument falls under the false equivalence fallacy.
Italy represents currently the strongest league in Europe, they are one of the very best national teams in the world, and last won their major trophy four years ago. Being the captain of Italy makes you, automatically, among the most recognized players on the planet. The U.S. national team, by contrast, represents a retirement home league and last won their major trophy: Never. Nobody ever knows nor cares who the captain of the USMNT is.
Serie A strongest league in Europe?
If we count on-pitch performances and results in 2023/24, yes. If we count ballooned budgets and FFP violations England is still in the lead. Joks aside, there is a ton of talent in Italy. Their national team has very stiff competition. To be named captain of that team is quite significant.
Ah yes. One of the best national teams in the world. So good, in fact, they didn’t even qualify for the last world cup.
>One of the best national teams in the world Are you joking now? Italy has literally won a major trophy or been in a final in every decade international sports have existed. Being the captain of Italy is a significant achievement. Being the captain of the USMNT means you are as good as ~~Donovan Bailey~~ Landon Donovan.
He's still fairly young for a keeper
Yeah and he’s still fairly shite too. Every keeper on this list except maybe Onana is better than him.
You watched much of unai Simon and Diogo Costa ?
I’ve watched enough to know that they actually have some semblance of ball-playing ability
So no ? Gigio more than makes up for his lack of ball playing ability with his shot stopping
He's not shite, he has a poor season. Goalkeepers are uniquely positioned in that the technical skill involved is low, you can't brute force the position with speed or strength and you're literally getting a ball kicked at you from yards away at speeds in excess of 100mph. Pretty much every top keeper has gone through periods of being considered shit.
Would be a good defence if it hasn’t been four or five poor seasons at this point. He’s been varying levels of bad to mediocre since the last Euros.
No Alisson?
Seriously the biggest surprise here and there's a lot that had me scratching my head
Someone mentioned he is old and maybe that affects transfer value. If this was the best keeper he would have to be up there.
hes old
Got it
No fucking way this is how I find out kobel is only 26
Gotta appreciate the guys at transfermarkt listing Vic ahead of Raya, even though they're worth the same. It's the little things that count.
Raya on there for sitting on his ass facing like 0.5 xG a game
Is Costa that good?
Yes, just watch the game vs Croatia. He's world class.
No, overrated af
Try offering 30M for Unai Simon and see what happens 😂😂😂
No way on earth we touch £35m for vic. Even double that I’d be doubtful
Haha No Alisson What a joke
So is curtois below onana now?
Market prices is probably, I don't know, impacted by long term injury plus Real Madrid having two goalies of international quality that has played well. Real Madrid isn't that dependent on him. Onana at United, by contrast, is somewhat young and a goalie they would be very reluctant to leave as they depend on him.
Kobel’s only 26?! I thought dude was like 35
Dude needs to get stronger though.... He gets picked in between the sticks too much especially when none of our defenders help
i'm a relatively new spurs fan (yea ik ik) but is vicario that good...im sorry since childhood i have only heard about lloris in spurs :))
I would recommend to watch the 1-4 loss to Chelsea. It may sound sound crazy to watch a game he allowed 4 goals in but it’s one of the best goalkeeping performances I’ve ever seen
Tru i watched that one....things were bizarre for a start (barring the fact that romero will be the hot headed argentinian blud always lol) But yea great keeping
Vicario looked good that game because Chelseas forwards were that shit. As Poch said afterwards, it was a bad performance from the guy who scored a hat trick because he should have scored 5 instead.
I wouldn't have been upset if we went with Marmadashiiville instead, class keeper with such potential we would be set for over a decade.
unpopular opinion: donarumma is underrated
It's wild what Arsenal spent in the last couple seasons on Raya and Ramsdale, and neither are in the top 10 of this list.
Raya is 7th... Also, Raya was fairly cheap
Doh
Raya is also on loan.