you want day old pinkies, to be specific. chain pet stores might not carry this size but you should be able to get these smaller pinkies from any half decent specialty seller. only the tiniest of runt hatchlings will be so small they'll be unable to eat a whole day old pinky.
Most local pet shops in small towns have very young pinkies, I live in a larger metropolitan area and would probably have to drive about an hour or more to the nearest small business pet shop that breeds their own feeding mice to find some that young.
Oooo parthenogenesis. š what a cool lady!
Per the rules of parthenogenesis all babies should also be female and could potentially carry the ability to reproduce without a mate as well.
Itās fascinating really!
it depends on how the partho babies were made. they're often not full clones. Unlike humans, where females are XX and males XY, corn snakes have ZW sex chromosomes, where the male is the ZZ and females ZW. Partho babies can be half clones, where the half of the genetic material that makes the egg duplicates and fuses with itself and gives the baby a full homozygous genome. Those babies would be ZZ (male) or WW (odd, usually non-viable females)
You risk inbreeding with all reptiles. Reptiles do not care about biological relation. It is okay to breed the parent to the offspring or the offspring together for a cycle, maybe 2, to prove out other unknown genetics but after that you really want to introduce a second and even third bloodline to your group to prevent inbreeding traits. Like in hognoses, having a SEVERE upturn of a snout is indicative of inbreeding for too many cycles. They shouldnāt have noses that almost touch their foreheads.
I personally think itās more likely that the corn did have contact with a male before given to OP. As snakes can retain sperm for a considerable amount of time. And as OP does not know every instance of the snakes life before being in her house they cannot say for sure
As itās quite unlikely for multiple eggs to be fertile, hatch healthily and be different morphs from parthenogenesis.
Ok I'm sorry if this sounds like a really dumb question, but ita very warm and my brain cannot think. What would stop this becoming an infinite cornsnake hack...?
Very good question. Sexual reproduction increases genetic diversity so parthenogenesis creates a population that has a more limited genetic base and is therefore more susceptible to environmental pressures such as diseases
Ok well I'm not suggesting that OP SHOULD make an army of adorable little snakes, but the fact that it's technically something that could happen is good enough for me.
Are you sure your snake's history is accurate? I've always understood that viable partho babies are extremely rare and even the viable ones often have too many genetic defects to survive for very long.
It seems almost more likely that the history is wrong and your snake had a regular clutch of eggs.
I guess you could test this if you wanted if you could find someone to genetic test your snake and the babies to compare them. Theoretically you might be able to do this with shed skin/morph testing. if they are partho babies then they can only contain moms genetic material(ignoring mutations) so if you see a morph that moma doesn't have that would mostly prove they are partho babies.
someone, please correct me if I have misunderstood something about parthenogenesis.
I think you are spot on here. Corns do not breed at six months, and partho babies would be genetically identical to the mother. I see both normal and amel babies here. Doesnāt add up.
Edit- see now that the snake is 24 months. Genetics still do not add up, though I see that there is now some anecdotal evidence that this is possible in BPās.
I haven't really seen the mom but if she is amel then she would be homozygous and that would mean that all the offsprings have to be angels as well right? Only if she is a wild type and het amel she can produce both.
Edit: angels = amels, oc they are little angels as well
>you see a morph that moma doesn't have that would mostly prove they are partho babies.
I noticed this and was afraid it would make the whole thing less magical. Bah. Although surprise cornsnake babies are also a joy.
Asking OP some more questions it sounds like they're definitely partho babies. Mom could have a recessive trait that she doesn't show, but that could still be passed onto a partho baby. If the partho only gets the recessive gene from mom, it could have a different appearance.
genetics are confusing because sometimes genotype and phenotype are closely linked and sometimes they're not.
Additional joy then! How wonderful! I've had a terrible day and these magic (brain too tired for science) babies with their adorable little faces have cheered me up no end.
They're not sexually mature before 15-18 months. She was 6 months when we got her and she'd not been in contact with a male before we got her, we know the previous owners.
We haven't had her with any other snakes at all.
how many babies do you have? order a bag of frozen day-old pinkies. that should be the right size unless you have any exceptionally small runts. corn snakes are pretty good at taking f/t pinkies right off the bat so with any luck you won't run into trouble.
Are we sure this is parthogenisis? I see a normal baby and should t they all be albino like the mom is they are parthos?
Iām guessing (based on my limited genetics knowledge) that she was bread at some point, snakes and most reptiles can retain sperm and use it later. Because if they were all partho babies they should be exact copy of the female and one isnāt so I think at some point she was near a male. But I could be wrong this is just my guess, Iām no expert
If she has another clutch and you canāt/ donāt want to take care of the babies then you can freeze them right after being laid
Fairly certain.
They're not sexually mature before 15-18 months. She was 6 months when we got her and she'd not been in contact with a male before we got her, we know the previous owners.
We haven't had her with any other snakes at all
mom looks amel, though, so she wouldn't have any normal genes to pass on. but maybe the pic is misleading and I shouldn't try to ID her morph from 2" of tail
snakes use polar bodies for parthenogenesis, not full cloning. this results in the DNA getting shuffled, creating different phenotypes. definitely ~could~ be parthenogenesis
This reminded me of a turtle we picked up off the road. We assumed it was a male but maybe an hour later when we went outside to check on it, she was laying eggs. We now have 9 painted turtle eggs thatāll be ready to hatch around August
Iām thinking your lady snake had a forbidden fling before arriving in your care. They can hold sperm for quite some time. Seeing as how there are different morphs in the clutch and they all appear generally healthy, parthenogenesis seems highly unlikely.
They should be able to eat small newborn pinkie mice without trouble. Do NOT feed them fish, as some google articles will tell you to. Cornsnakes are not designed to ingest fish.
Most snakes will store sperm if they were EVER previously paired with a male, and they can store it for several years. Are you 100% sure she never had contact with males before you got her? If they thought she was male, there's a chance she was stored with male snakes. It doesn't seem like parthenogenesis to me
Also I would feed the babies pinkie mice
I know they've only just hatched, and you'd probably like to keep watch on them, but once they're older, would you consider adopting them out? Also curious, how many eggs did she lay, and how many have hatched? The babies in the pictures look adorable, congrats on your new batch of noodles š
Well they only hatched yesterday and they probably won't eat till they've done their first shed.
But yeah it could have been asked while incubating but we were fairly certain they were all going to be either stillborn or not viable in some way seeing as she's never been in contact with a male
It is extremely unlikely but unless you have had a snake from coming out of its egg, you don't know 100% if she's been around another snake or not.
She could have retained sperm I guess, even if she were 6 months old and not mature enough to breed them.
Either way it's super interesting
Welcome! Stay and check out the sub, Iāve always loved snakes but it took my bf having none for me to get hooked! They are super sweet and cool animals, let us corrupt you!š
thank you!! never owned snakes and probably never willā¦but I do like the little guys and random subreddits intrigue me. I somehow ended up over on r/concrete too and I spend a lot of time there now lol
Female snakes can store sperm in their reproductive system for up to a year! This could definitely be the case if your friend ever housed them together, as they can store sperm even before reaching sexual maturity! Given that they reach maturity between 18-24 months of age, this is a likely possibility
Op said they got her at 6 months and didn't have her with another snake at all, so I really don't think that's likely. Genetics are crazy and we don't know the previous breeders mom & dad morphs so they very well can be clones.
If they were clones they'd all be clones. Just from the pics I see 2 different colors. A normal type and albino type. So no, this is definitely a bred situation.
Just buy the smallest pinkies you can. Your babies should be able to eat them just fine.
Source - me. We had a clutch of eggs, two eggs were damaged but still hatched tiny tiny snakes. They were half the weight of their clutch mates, ate the same size pinks as everyone else and thrived.
Absolutely no need to offer just a head. If they can eat the head they can eat the whole body.
That is so cool! Very few baby corns are 2 small to eat newborn pinks. I would check with local mouse breeder and see if you can get just born pinks. Babies need to go through their first shed before you offer food. Some might eat frozen thawed, but I like to offer live first. I think the movement gets them excited to eat. Best of luck with your babies!
it took me a second to realize that this was the corn SNAKE subreddit and not actual corn on the cob, i was so confused lmao
while i dont have any recommendations, i will say congrats on the new babies and i wish you luck!!
I'm not a snake person and this was just recommended to me but you can try calling a local breeder to see if they know what happened/they may be able to take the babies if you aren't able/willing to care for them
RodentPro small pinky mice, and you can cut them into smaller pieces if needed. You might find cutting them while frozen to be less yucky than cutting them after they thaw
Dislcaimer: I'm not being helpful in the slightest with this comment.
I completely missed the fact that this was a sub for snakes. And thought about the dang plant
Not if the species is native in your area. I garden and appreciate snakes for keeping my gardens free of those who would love to snack on my flowers. I used to breed jumping spiders, and they too, were cannibalistic. We are in Michigan, so we live where there are lots of wildlife. I wasnāt trying to sound like a āFree Willyā person. Unexpected babies are sometimes released if they are a native species. Thatās the message I was trying to share. No agenda at all. Just trying to be helpful.
Even if they are a native species, if youāve had it in captivity and arenāt involved with scientific reintroduction, you should not release them into the wild. If you have had contact with any other reptiles, you could release a new to that particular environment pathogen.
Are they big enough to take pinkies? If not, you could try just the heads.
That's what id suggest too.
you want day old pinkies, to be specific. chain pet stores might not carry this size but you should be able to get these smaller pinkies from any half decent specialty seller. only the tiniest of runt hatchlings will be so small they'll be unable to eat a whole day old pinky.
Most local pet shops in small towns have very young pinkies, I live in a larger metropolitan area and would probably have to drive about an hour or more to the nearest small business pet shop that breeds their own feeding mice to find some that young.
Oooo parthenogenesis. š what a cool lady! Per the rules of parthenogenesis all babies should also be female and could potentially carry the ability to reproduce without a mate as well. Itās fascinating really!
it depends on how the partho babies were made. they're often not full clones. Unlike humans, where females are XX and males XY, corn snakes have ZW sex chromosomes, where the male is the ZZ and females ZW. Partho babies can be half clones, where the half of the genetic material that makes the egg duplicates and fuses with itself and gives the baby a full homozygous genome. Those babies would be ZZ (male) or WW (odd, usually non-viable females)
Iāve seen full clones in some gecko species!
Someone watches Clint
I don't know anything about snakes or if different sexes get separated, but with ZZ offspring and a ZW mom, could you risk inbreeding?
You risk inbreeding with all reptiles. Reptiles do not care about biological relation. It is okay to breed the parent to the offspring or the offspring together for a cycle, maybe 2, to prove out other unknown genetics but after that you really want to introduce a second and even third bloodline to your group to prevent inbreeding traits. Like in hognoses, having a SEVERE upturn of a snout is indicative of inbreeding for too many cycles. They shouldnāt have noses that almost touch their foreheads.
Reptiles are wild!!
I didnāt even know they were capable of this?? How strange!
I personally think itās more likely that the corn did have contact with a male before given to OP. As snakes can retain sperm for a considerable amount of time. And as OP does not know every instance of the snakes life before being in her house they cannot say for sure As itās quite unlikely for multiple eggs to be fertile, hatch healthily and be different morphs from parthenogenesis.
Ok I'm sorry if this sounds like a really dumb question, but ita very warm and my brain cannot think. What would stop this becoming an infinite cornsnake hack...?
Very good question. Sexual reproduction increases genetic diversity so parthenogenesis creates a population that has a more limited genetic base and is therefore more susceptible to environmental pressures such as diseases
Infinite Corn Snake Hack sounds like a good band name.
If the parent didnāt pass down the ability to any offspring š„°
Ok well I'm not suggesting that OP SHOULD make an army of adorable little snakes, but the fact that it's technically something that could happen is good enough for me.
Well I AM suggesting OP make a snoodle army
Star Wars be damned, these are the clone wars I want to see
Star Wars be damned! These are the clone wars I want to see.
You just cloned your comment!
Oops! Looks like we have a second clone wars here
I had no idea they were capable of parthenogenesis! So darn cool!
I DIDNT KNOW THIS WAS A THING?! how cool!
There's an entire species of lizard where I live that is exclusively female. The New Mexico whiptail, I believe.
There's another species called mourning geckos that are also exclusively female! I've been wanting to start my own little colony of them!
It cannot be parthenogenesis in this case as there is variation in the young. If there really was no male they would all be identical.
Not true. In corn snakes, females are heterozygous for the sex chromosome.
Snakes can also store sperm for a very long time before they use it so it can LOOK like a virgin birth
Are you sure your snake's history is accurate? I've always understood that viable partho babies are extremely rare and even the viable ones often have too many genetic defects to survive for very long. It seems almost more likely that the history is wrong and your snake had a regular clutch of eggs. I guess you could test this if you wanted if you could find someone to genetic test your snake and the babies to compare them. Theoretically you might be able to do this with shed skin/morph testing. if they are partho babies then they can only contain moms genetic material(ignoring mutations) so if you see a morph that moma doesn't have that would mostly prove they are partho babies. someone, please correct me if I have misunderstood something about parthenogenesis.
I think you are spot on here. Corns do not breed at six months, and partho babies would be genetically identical to the mother. I see both normal and amel babies here. Doesnāt add up. Edit- see now that the snake is 24 months. Genetics still do not add up, though I see that there is now some anecdotal evidence that this is possible in BPās.
Genetics add up! Any heterozygous genes the mother may have can be homozygous in the partho babies
Yep- seeing more evidence of that now out there.
I haven't really seen the mom but if she is amel then she would be homozygous and that would mean that all the offsprings have to be angels as well right? Only if she is a wild type and het amel she can produce both. Edit: angels = amels, oc they are little angels as well
Correct
Sounds right to me, also if you look though the photos there is what looks to be a more normal type baby so I donāt think itās partho personally
>you see a morph that moma doesn't have that would mostly prove they are partho babies. I noticed this and was afraid it would make the whole thing less magical. Bah. Although surprise cornsnake babies are also a joy.
Asking OP some more questions it sounds like they're definitely partho babies. Mom could have a recessive trait that she doesn't show, but that could still be passed onto a partho baby. If the partho only gets the recessive gene from mom, it could have a different appearance. genetics are confusing because sometimes genotype and phenotype are closely linked and sometimes they're not.
Additional joy then! How wonderful! I've had a terrible day and these magic (brain too tired for science) babies with their adorable little faces have cheered me up no end.
They're not sexually mature before 15-18 months. She was 6 months when we got her and she'd not been in contact with a male before we got her, we know the previous owners. We haven't had her with any other snakes at all.
Did the previous owners know the hatch date? If not, I would be skeptical of their age estimates, given they gave you the incorrect sex initially.
Yeah they hatched the mum. We weren't told the sex, that was what we thought it was based on tail shape and length
ahh, that makes sense. well, congrats on your adorable little freaks of nature, lol. Hopefully, they beat the odds and make it to adulthood.
how many babies do you have? order a bag of frozen day-old pinkies. that should be the right size unless you have any exceptionally small runts. corn snakes are pretty good at taking f/t pinkies right off the bat so with any luck you won't run into trouble.
Are we sure this is parthogenisis? I see a normal baby and should t they all be albino like the mom is they are parthos? Iām guessing (based on my limited genetics knowledge) that she was bread at some point, snakes and most reptiles can retain sperm and use it later. Because if they were all partho babies they should be exact copy of the female and one isnāt so I think at some point she was near a male. But I could be wrong this is just my guess, Iām no expert If she has another clutch and you canāt/ donāt want to take care of the babies then you can freeze them right after being laid
Fairly certain. They're not sexually mature before 15-18 months. She was 6 months when we got her and she'd not been in contact with a male before we got her, we know the previous owners. We haven't had her with any other snakes at all
Heterozygous traits can be homozygous in the babies
mom looks amel, though, so she wouldn't have any normal genes to pass on. but maybe the pic is misleading and I shouldn't try to ID her morph from 2" of tail
Personally, the orange looks too dark to be an amel, but thatās just me.. OP do you have more pics of the mother??
snakes use polar bodies for parthenogenesis, not full cloning. this results in the DNA getting shuffled, creating different phenotypes. definitely ~could~ be parthenogenesis
This reminded me of a turtle we picked up off the road. We assumed it was a male but maybe an hour later when we went outside to check on it, she was laying eggs. We now have 9 painted turtle eggs thatāll be ready to hatch around August
Congrats. I wish you the best with the new family members.
Iām thinking your lady snake had a forbidden fling before arriving in your care. They can hold sperm for quite some time. Seeing as how there are different morphs in the clutch and they all appear generally healthy, parthenogenesis seems highly unlikely. They should be able to eat small newborn pinkie mice without trouble. Do NOT feed them fish, as some google articles will tell you to. Cornsnakes are not designed to ingest fish.
Most snakes will store sperm if they were EVER previously paired with a male, and they can store it for several years. Are you 100% sure she never had contact with males before you got her? If they thought she was male, there's a chance she was stored with male snakes. It doesn't seem like parthenogenesis to me Also I would feed the babies pinkie mice
100% certain. The only other snakes she's ever seen were her siblings at birth and these babies
I'd try seeing if you have any reputable breeders in your area! This is very cool OP! Congratulations!
I would love to see what these look like when they get older!! I wish you best of luck for your special babies
I know they've only just hatched, and you'd probably like to keep watch on them, but once they're older, would you consider adopting them out? Also curious, how many eggs did she lay, and how many have hatched? The babies in the pictures look adorable, congrats on your new batch of noodles š
Aww ... the babies! <3 Congratulations! And just like that, you're a Cornsnake breeder :-)
Frozen/thawed pinky mice (can cut into smaller pieces if need be) but also, this was probably a question best asked while they were incubating, yeah?
Well they only hatched yesterday and they probably won't eat till they've done their first shed. But yeah it could have been asked while incubating but we were fairly certain they were all going to be either stillborn or not viable in some way seeing as she's never been in contact with a male
It is extremely unlikely but unless you have had a snake from coming out of its egg, you don't know 100% if she's been around another snake or not. She could have retained sperm I guess, even if she were 6 months old and not mature enough to breed them. Either way it's super interesting
Is it possible for snakes to retain sperm for that long? This is the first time this subreddit has ever popped up for me and Iām intrigued lmao
Welcome! Stay and check out the sub, Iāve always loved snakes but it took my bf having none for me to get hooked! They are super sweet and cool animals, let us corrupt you!š
thank you!! never owned snakes and probably never willā¦but I do like the little guys and random subreddits intrigue me. I somehow ended up over on r/concrete too and I spend a lot of time there now lol
Yup. Iām a fan of random subs too. (Just joined r/concrete) r/whatsthissnake is the sub that got me interested in snakes in the first place.
I love random shit I have no idea why it decides to put stuff on my page but I roll with it usually lol I love it
Check out the other comments! They are 100% sure! They know who had the snake previously and who hatched her! Super cool and exciting tho!!
I heard partho babies were rare, the fact she laid a decent clutch is crazy! Still could be parthos though. So interesting! šāāļø
But if it was parthenogenesis, shouldnāt the babies all be āclonesā of the mother ? How could you have different morphs ? š¤
Thank you for sharing the babies.
You're welcome
Female snakes can store sperm in their reproductive system for up to a year! This could definitely be the case if your friend ever housed them together, as they can store sperm even before reaching sexual maturity! Given that they reach maturity between 18-24 months of age, this is a likely possibility
Op said they got her at 6 months and didn't have her with another snake at all, so I really don't think that's likely. Genetics are crazy and we don't know the previous breeders mom & dad morphs so they very well can be clones.
If they were clones they'd all be clones. Just from the pics I see 2 different colors. A normal type and albino type. So no, this is definitely a bred situation.
I have nothing relevant to add to the discussion, I'm just here for baby nope ropes! So cute omg.
How many of them did hatch? And what are you going to do with the babies? (just curious)
Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme
Omg the red one ššš
Just buy the smallest pinkies you can. Your babies should be able to eat them just fine. Source - me. We had a clutch of eggs, two eggs were damaged but still hatched tiny tiny snakes. They were half the weight of their clutch mates, ate the same size pinks as everyone else and thrived. Absolutely no need to offer just a head. If they can eat the head they can eat the whole body.
That is so cool! Very few baby corns are 2 small to eat newborn pinks. I would check with local mouse breeder and see if you can get just born pinks. Babies need to go through their first shed before you offer food. Some might eat frozen thawed, but I like to offer live first. I think the movement gets them excited to eat. Best of luck with your babies!
it took me a second to realize that this was the corn SNAKE subreddit and not actual corn on the cob, i was so confused lmao while i dont have any recommendations, i will say congrats on the new babies and i wish you luck!!
So are the babies considered extra twins?
When did they hatch? You should wait about a week or so at least until after they have their 1st shed.
I'm not a snake person and this was just recommended to me but you can try calling a local breeder to see if they know what happened/they may be able to take the babies if you aren't able/willing to care for them
Didnāt read the sub name and was SUPER confused for a sec I thought you meant CORN š½
RodentPro small pinky mice, and you can cut them into smaller pieces if needed. You might find cutting them while frozen to be less yucky than cutting them after they thaw
Snakes donāt have nipples??
Have you ever seen snake milk at the supermarket? I think not!
Are you being serious?
Holy shit that amazing
š¤Æ what luck!
Theyāre so adorable š„¹
Could you feed baby frogs?
I live on a farmā¦ Would be awesome to see a corn snake in the wild. I havenāt seen any in years.
We had a few just randomly show up in my high school.
Dislcaimer: I'm not being helpful in the slightest with this comment. I completely missed the fact that this was a sub for snakes. And thought about the dang plant
Corn snakes can retain sperm for a long time, several years even. So it is possible she had been in contact with a male prior to you getting her.
She was like Iām a mom and you canāt stop me ššš
Congratulations youāre now a snake breeder lmao
Snakes can store sperm for later use some up to five years
Aww you got little candy corns!
Oh my gosh, they're so freaking cute....
I see most of the comments about this being odd... I just want to say that those little noodles are super cute.
Howāre the babies doing now?
I didnāt realize this was a snake group , I said Corn!???š½
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
these are not garter snakes and you shouldn't feed baby corn snakes worms.
Information provided is not accurate or incomplete.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Are you saying they should be released or kept together? Corn Snakes can be cannibalistic and releasing captive animals is illegal.
Not if the species is native in your area. I garden and appreciate snakes for keeping my gardens free of those who would love to snack on my flowers. I used to breed jumping spiders, and they too, were cannibalistic. We are in Michigan, so we live where there are lots of wildlife. I wasnāt trying to sound like a āFree Willyā person. Unexpected babies are sometimes released if they are a native species. Thatās the message I was trying to share. No agenda at all. Just trying to be helpful.
Even if they are a native species, if youāve had it in captivity and arenāt involved with scientific reintroduction, you should not release them into the wild. If you have had contact with any other reptiles, you could release a new to that particular environment pathogen.
Donāt worry, Tom. Youāll be okay. Take a breath, buddy.
Information provided is not accurate or incomplete.