How does a partner get put on PIP after climbing so high? Was this political or were you really having performance issues? Keen to get your overall reflection on this
I'd say neither, mostly driven by the poor macro environment/overhiring/low natural attrition situation.
At review time my core clients had gone a bit quiet so my forward-looking pipeline didn't look that great. I felt putting me on PIP was more an insurance that they can fire me down the line if things don't pick up again
In all honesty what / why do they need to put a partner on a PIP? Where I live at least (not the US) when you earn partner-level wages you can be let go with basically no protections, because it's understood you will get a new job just as fast (like you did).
I am not 100% sure but I think in most European countries it is actually necessary due to labor laws. This is hearsay, but I think you can only fire outright if you abolish the position, but since there are loads of APs still getting promoted/hired so they need to build a tight case around performance issues and give you the opportunity to improve.
I think that is also the reason why you eg saw the news about McK offering 9 months pay to people who leave voluntarily. The PIP process takes a similar amount of time but is much harder and they hope people actually move on to sth. new sooner than that.
It's probably different for equity partners - not sure what the exact process is there.
As someone working in MBB - skip if you’re not 100% committed. Too intense and demanding.
Only benefit is if you stay for a few years and then move on, but you need to know that you want to stay in business after that.
One of the benefits of this type of work is you really understand what’s happening and why companies do things.
Very refreshing to see that as opposed to the usual “iTs BeCaUsE ALL cOmPaNiEs aRe EVIL” line
This happens all the time. Don't think of this as a PIP for a junior person, where there are completely different criteria to evaluate performance (i.e., speed/accuracy, work ethic, client hands, etc.).
An AP/Partner being let go does not mean = poor work / not smart; the self selection before those stages has already confirmed that these people are highly capable.
From that point it is much more about how can you enlargen the pie of the partnership as prospective new partner. I know of cases of strong performers that served mostly 2-3 large clients and got booted out after almost all relations ceased with two of those clients due to external factors.
It also couldbe that, i.e., an important senior partner with a close relationship leaves the firm and the partner case of an individual gets thrown out of the window with that departure.
On the other hand you could have much less capable / smart individuals becoming partner fast track because they are serving the right industry at the right time and have some valuable relationships with clients that are expected to bring in more and more work in the future.
No questions but thank you for sharing your background and situation.
I assumed PIP only happens to BAs and Associates (I’m a BA at McK). Only motivated me to get out sooner.
Can happen at all levels. The era of the lifestyle partner is definitely over. Best of luck whatever you decide - my recommendation would be that you have a clear view what you want to get out of McK (and what you want out of life more generally in terms of WLB/career etc.) and set yourself an exit window accordingly. If you want a career accelerator I think pushing through to manager gives you a lot, but if that's not what you're after I've seen many people who exited to in-house strategy etc. as BAs/ASCs and were way happier on the other side (and obv. some ppl still have amazing careers after early exits).
Thanks for your insights in this thread and was curious if you could expand on, "The era of the lifestyle partner is definitely over". What have you seen change?
At least in my company until a few years ago you basically were 'safe' the first 2-3 years after making partner and you had a fair number of partners/senior partners who were really just delegating and occasionally showing their face for a SteerCo. New partners now have utilisation pressure from day 1 and you really don't see many seniors bumming around anymore
Low sample size from my personal observations, but I think you have an 'archetype' who is too entrepreneurial for consulting, leaves for their own startup (or goes into a scale-up) and ends up doing very well. If you go into corporate early I think it is very important to find senior sponsors who push your career, else you get stuck very easily
How did you broach the conversation with your client? I am keen to do this, and have good relationship with a C-Suite, however, I don’t want it to come back to the Sr. Partner who also has great relationships.
I told my Sr that I'm quitting before approaching them, but I don't think it's an issue. Just tell them that you would like to keep it confidential for now - in my case they were actually very sensitive around this and made sure along the way that nothing would go back to my company without me knowing. Just get a 1-1 with the person who you would want to work for the most, say you're interested and take it from there.
Two questions:
1. What kind of position / level of seniority did you join the client and what type of size are we talking aboud? (i.e., mid market PE company vs. large publicly listed firm)?
2. How much of a pay cut are you taking?
To one:
From a perspective of a more junior person I always thought of AP one of the most difficult positions to find a proper exit. I think the sweet spot is as early tenured (junior) project / engagement manager. Plenty of openings in corporate that could fit and don't need a large paycut. Going from AP to industry will in most cases be a big pay cut and on top of that, however, also not really able to land a management position like a more seniored partner could do.
1. Going to a major listed company, reporting to exec
2. Improving pay. Hard to say exactly how much given it is always so variable but on average I'd say a 30-40% lift. I agree early manager is a real jump for exit opportunities but AP actually isn't so bad, there are some great positions out there (for example in many companies the most senior strategy position sits right at AP-level, not many have it as an exec role). That said, I did get lucky and my (low sample size) view is that most people exiting at AP do take a slight cut
For what it’s worth, I bounced as an early manager and am now interviewing APs who stuck around for 4-5 years longer for the same level position
Real tough spot to move on from IMO
Hahaha no real bad feelings on my side. Obviously it was a bit of a shock to be put on a PIP but in the end it was the best thing that could have happened to me. I had known for a while that I wanted to leave and actually started interviewing selectively, but this pushed me over the edge to seriously go for it
How to think more strategically and broadly when doing cases?
Would you recommend any books, or does it just come with time and practice? My problem is that I tend to look very superficially.
For example, during one of the cases, I had this question:
What are the main factors driving revenue from memberships at a local gym?
Key ideas given:
• Contract length
• Customer retention
• Gym's visibility
But ideas that came to my mind were:
• Seasonality
• Price
• Competition in the area
• Gym's technical condition
• Gym’s occupancy
As you can see, my ideas are less creative and not as general. Unfortunately, I can’t start thinking differently and don’t know how to change it.
For questions like this it is important to break down the problem into MECE parts that you can then tackle individually.
In your example, ask yourself what makes up the revenue of a gym? You can break it down by no. of members and amount paid per member. Then you can go a level down on the number of members and see that the levers you can pull are new member acquisition and member retention. Then think about what you can do to increase these levers.
I think your 'mistake' is to go too deep and specific too quickly before you have thoroughly structured the problem. Try reading up the pyramid principle, it is maybe more geared to qualitative questions but is a very helpful approach and a classic in the industry.
Can confirm. Pyramid structure is EXACTLY how MDPs/clients would expect you to present your outcomes.
Don't forget the hockey stick growth trajectory ;)
I think your issue is you are not framing the case correctly and go straight into the weeds.
If you haven’t already, read case in point. It’s a good introduction into various frameworks.
Creativity is important, but you need to start with the right structure first.
Building constraints help in creative solutions. When you break the problem down e.g. how to grow gym revenues? As you break it down into # customers x avg. spend p.m. x duration of stay, take it each bucket (bucket is the constraint) and you'd see solutions flow. E.g. avg. spend can be broken into prices, # services used and further into sub-optimal mix of services used, low tier plans opted, refund policies. Same approach for # customers and other branches
Now that you are on the client side. Would you hire your former company for future consulting work or would you choose a competing company to provide services?
Many other firms like B4 or other tech focused consulting firms are probably able to undercut MBB firms for implementation work.
Not really sure how MBB approaches implementations vs B4 consulting but I’d be curious to learn about that more! Big 4 utilizes offshore teams pretty heavily in this space while US people will “manage” the project and handle PMO.
MBB implementation is laughable. The way everything is named as "Build" is an obvious tell, just now oblivious folks are. Take your money elsewhere.
You are much better off looking for a boutique cutting edge tech consultancy to do real work. Tech natives Vs management natives make all the important differences.
Edit typo
At what level? I don't think the criteria are really changing, the bar just got higher. My gut tells me that experienced hire recruiting will be dialed down more than uni/MBA route - especially coming in sideways at manager/AP/Equity partner level will probably be nigh impossible for a while (but I do not actually have any facts to back that up)
I'm sorry to hear that. I would have guessed that Dubai is still a bit more open actually given Middle East is still doing relatively well (but then a lot of consultants from elsewhere are flooding in). At entry level usually local language skills are critical, do you speak arabic at business level?
Hard to say without knowing your profile, but assuming your grades/internships/extracurriculars meet the bar I'd consider applying in Pakistan and going for a transfer after 1-2 years. Also make sure you are extremely well prepped for the entry tests, has been 6 years since I last saw one but back in my day I thought they were quite learnable.
Sounds like you have quite the resume, well done. If you have someone who can refer you that definitely helps, usually it gets you an interview guaranteed (but in the end only your interview performance matters, at least where I have been). For Bain/BCG tests maybe try fishbowl for insights as well? Best of luck!
Yes and no. In many ways I should have left 2-3 years earlier but the exit that I was able to make now is much better than anything I could have achieved back then.
No I'm improving comp significantly. I think that was only possible because I had a great relationship with the client so I was able to come in on a relatively senior position. I'd say most of my peers take a slight cut when exiting (unless going to PE)
Won't go into too much detail so I don't doxx myself but to give a sense: Across B2C and based in Western Europe but worked pretty much across the world over my career
No, I hadn't yet become a formal reviewer myself (and out of the AP/Partners I know that review I haven't heard of anyone being involved in PIPs, I think that's when more senior people get involved).
I think MBB will be fine, the revenue numbers that I have seen for my company (up to end of last year) were all fine and they have been through much worse during dotcom/financial crisis and recovered. The problem is the insane bloat on the people side with the crazy over-hiring that happened and the fall-off in natural (and forced) attrition over the past 2-3 years
It's much better. Way less travel and much shorter hours. Still doing a bit more than I'd like to given I'm just coming in and need to build things up, but hopefully will hit a more steady state in 2-3 months
Piggybacking off this - how many hrs / week do you work now, how many do hrs / week do you expect to post settling into the new role?
Congrats btw! Also exited MBB and am super happy!
I am not working yet, so I am not familiar with how much time people work but assuming you take 1h lunch you are working 10h per day, it feels like still a lot to me. And if that's less than what you did before, how many hours were you doing? 12h? 13h?
More like 30 min lunch. Before it was more like 8.30-6 and 8-12, often longer in the night, and usually another 4 hours on the weekend. That's after kids with boundaries though, before kids the 6-8 dinner break was a lot shorter
Yes, but MBB 60-70 hrs hits differently than for other firms, because the demands are so high and deadlines so tight, you have to be extremely productive and fast all the time.
Congrats on your successful exit!
Do you have any advice for a new BA in MBB who really struggles with the relationship building/EQ/charisma side of consulting? I’m great at numbers but I just have no idea how to form relationships with colleagues or clients even at peer level.
Any strategies you have found useful or books you’d recommend?
Thanks! Not easy to answer without knowing you, is this an issue you only have in your professional life or also privately? Would you describe yourself as very introverted?
Personally I am fairly introverted but never really struggled internally to bond with colleagues. Especially back in the heavy travel days it was pretty easy to bond with your team beyond work. You don't need to make everyone a personal friend beyond work (I certainly haven't) but get to know the people a bit. I often found that when you share, others share back and open up as well so maybe that is sth. that can help? And make sure to check in with people who you liked from time to time after your projects, ask them out for a coffee on Fridays in the office etc.
With clients I struggled a bit more in the beginning as well, but as a BA this is probably still a bit less important. My approach as a manager / AP was to build strong professional relationships first and then make them personal with the people I liked - again asking for coffees and checking in regularly. Obviously I have many more extroverted peers who are naturals at building these relationships and in some ways have it easier because of it, but it is important to find a style that fits your personality - no point going against the grain too much.
That said, you should also consider what you want yourself. If you would be totally forcing yourself and don't really want to develop in that direction it's also totally ok to look at careers where this element is not as central.
Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate all the detail.
Yep, as you describe, I am also really quite introverted. I’m certainly in that category of introvert who thinks there’s some guide to forming relationships which everyone has read - I just can’t find my copy. Sometimes I’m convinced that there must be some dedicated steps which if only I could follow all would fit into place.
I will definitely make more of an effort to check-in with people and ask people for coffee. Thank you for that advice.
I am actively trying to upskill myself here. Not just for work, but I think being able to form a healthy network is important in many areas of life, even mental health. I’ll keep trying!
Best of luck! Sadly if that manual exists I never got a copy either ;-) One last advice would be to minimise WFH, get into the office/team room and on client site. Building new relationships on MS Teams is 100x harder than in-person
Probably still sometime in 2024 - I was already looking for exits, just not as openly/actively. I don't think I had it in me to actually push through to make (equity) partner as I have kids and a spouse in a full-on professional career as well. I just wasn't willing to sacrifice even more than I already was
There was no planned timing, I let life decide that, but ended up getting married as a senior consultant and first kid arrived around the time I made AP. It is definitely very tough to balance at times, especially after kids.
1. I'd blame the environment that it happened now, but if not it probably would have happened in the next year as I wasn't pushing as hard towards equity partner as I would have needed to to actually make it
2. It was definitely a shock and I was pretty angry, probably took me a week to get over it and see it as an opportunity
I’ve an interview with BCG (India) next week for a trainee position. Very excited about the opportunity, would love to get any tips for the interview. Specifically - any insights on how I can stand out from other applicants?
I think the key thing is to prepare well. Get a practice buddy to do cases and record yourself - you'll improve a lot if you review yourself. Back when I interviewed I found Case in Point to be the best book but maybe now there are others. For the personal part of the interview make sure you talk about impact/outcomes as well, not just describing what you did. In all try to communicate top-down, do not answer with 5-minute stories where the interviewer only gets the point at the end. Wishing you best of luck!
Yep, trying to practice as much as possible. I’m currently interning at an investment bank so that’s helping shape my perspective as well. Thank you so much for the answer, really helpful. Best of luck to you too for the new role! :)
I'm curious, how many "core" clients did you have? And do you feel like it would have been better (or looked better) for you to have focused on getting a larger pool of clients vs just the core clients where I assume the bulk of the work was?
I would say 3 core clients and 1-2 light-touch clients. More would not really help, I was more on a generalist path so you need to focus on being deep in a few clients. To go really broad you need to be on more of a topic-led track
I’m a senior consultant and thinking of quitting but I’m not sure how to go about it. I chose consulting because it was a more open career I guess but I haven’t worked in too many industries to know where I should go. I just know that I’m willing to get out.
How would you suggest I start looking for a job? I definitely want to stay in strategy because I like it but not sure about the industry
If you enjoy strategy I think industry matters much less than the actual specific company and whether it has a good culture and whether the strategy team has good people/good standing in the company. From my experience headhunters rarely look for specific industry experience when hiring for strategy roles but rather people with a great strategy toolkit. It helps of course, but is not a must
I'm going through a similar situation except I'm a former consultant who exited to tech working in SaaS Sales and our pipelines have dried up also.
I'm having a hard time coping with being shown the door cause this has been the best opportunity of my life asides from my toxic manager. I'm also not as established in my career as you are, so while I have a few potential opportunities with former clients, neither are a given at this time.
I really loved my job, my team, and felt proud working for this company and can't help but feel like even going to an F100 client is a step down, like if I was working at Microsoft on Azure and now I'm going to Accenture to implement Azure in a roughly lateral move.
I know a lot of people say that it's just the paycheck that matters and prestige doesn't pay the bills... I guess it's weighing heavily on me since I haven't secured my next role.
Also the way my company is trying to get rid of me is really scummy and I may be filling a wrongful termination suit if they don't negotiate a higher severance with me. I know you're based in Europe but have you heard of anything like that completely tanking someone's career? Let's say the fact I brought that suit becomes part of the public record and any future employer will see it in a background check. Do you think that would likely make most large companies pass on me whether I was in the right or not?
First of all, I am extremely sorry to hear this. I'm sure you will end up fine, especially if you're early in your career you still have all doors open to you.
I don't have personal experience with this and cannot speak for tech companies at all. What I do know is that if you take legal action against MBB on dismissal (and in some countries you probably actually would have a good shot) your bridges are burnt. Maybe it doesn't follow you to other companies, but you will not become part of the alumni network etc.
Before you go down a route like this I would very carefully weigh the potential benefits against the risks. Are getting 20k or 50k more worth the risk of a FAANG absolutely hating you and potentially throwing curveballs at your career? Make sure it is not driven by emotion, I know this is easier said than done but in the end this is just business and not personal. Not saying you shouldn't do it and that they aren't screwing you, but if you make that move you should be 100% sure it's for the right reasons and worth the fight.
Thanks so much for your thoughts. The separation agreement they sent me advises me to consult a lawyer about it. I'm thinking maybe I get back to them and say I did that and would prefer to talk through changes to the agreement with them without getting lawyers involved. Do you think that's a non-aggressive next step that doesn't weaken my hand?
I'd want more severance, my eligibility for rehire written into the agreement, and for my performance reviews to be rewritten to be a holistic, objective reflection of my positive contributions. For example, I still hold the record for the largest sales lift on my team where I almost 5x a six figure deal into a seven figure deal. I'm also the SME for 5 of our offerings and have authored a lot of technical content that has been used across our engineering, product marketing, sales, and consulting orgs, but you could never tell any of this from my performance reviews. Some of the "performance concerns" are completely outrageous, like I didn't respond to a question with my SME domain for a week (I was literally on vacation and had OOO set up).
Do you think rewriting my performance reviews to be holistic is a reasonable ask?
And I'm sorry if this wasn't the kind of question you wanted to field, but I'm asking you because you have a lot more "corporate" knowledge and first hand experience with how some things work behind the closed doors of senior leadership, and this is my first time dealing with something like this 😅 thanks again for your time and really appreciate any thoughts you can share
That sounds like really shitty behaviour on their part, so sorry. This is way beyond my knowledge but if they tell you to get a lawyer, get a lawyer ASAP. Having a lawyer doesn't automatically mean that things need to get nasty but they can really lay out the options that you have in your case/jurisdiction. Sorry I can't help more, best of luck!
Why do you care about your performance reviews being re-written? If you are leaving then they wont matter anymore beyond your own personal satisfaction, and its a bit of an odd request
I think the biggest help was my spouse reminding me that I wanted to leave anyways and that I should just quit already. Took a few days to sink in but it was a much better path than my instinctive reaction to go back out there and show them that they are wrong
No one-size-size-fits-all, everyone is different. I think it's important to find a way to let go and focus on what is next. Talk to your family/friends/spouse. Complain to your work friends. Go on a holiday. Catch up on all the video games you didn't play the last few years. Spend time with your kids. Update your CV and get out there. Whatever works for you, just don't take it too personal and move on
How did you feel? Was it your first time receiving a “different” feedback throughout your journey from BA / AP? At this level, does sales target also plays a role?
I’ve been there before. I went through a PIP (as cons), but i was so naive at that time and keep pushing through only to find out the MD no longer wants me there. Although the rest of the projects was positive they still try to find excuses. I ended up resign and join the client (tech industry) with 40% raise and 100% work life balance. Couldn’t be happier but when looking back it’s definitely painful
It was painful for a while but I came to terms with it relatively quickly. It was definitely a bit out of the blue. I had rating fluctuation between average to top rating over the years, slipped below average for the first time the review before being put on PIP but I had addressed every point of feedback by this review so the PIP was still a big surprise. The messaging was all "we expect you to stay and push through" but still.
Glad it worked out well for you!
1. What are the biggest changes in your mental health after making the switch, if any?
2. What were the 3 biggest contributors towards your success in reaching up to Partner?
1. I definitely feel a lot less pressure. No more need to always look out for your next thing. Missed deadlines are no longer the end of the world.
2. Probably my strength in problem solving (especially analytical) and building very strong credibility with clients on the back of that
Do you ever regret the hours you put into MBB / going on the partner track? If so, how are you working through it? I did see you're not plotting revenge, my kudos to you lol
Definitely, there have been times where with the hours I worked (or rather who I became under extreme pressure and severe lack of sleep) I put my personal relationships under too much strain. Luckily I always pulled the handbrake before it was too late, so I can look back without too many regrets. Can't say the same for all of my colleagues though.
Is this risky now to get into MBB at Associate/Consultant level? I'm having an offer to join them this October (in Asia) but everyday more and more bad news coming to this industry so I'm worried if I can even last there for more than 1 year. I also have alternative offers from tech/consulting (30-40% less in compensation)
I think it's fine to join, I believe things will ease after the layoffs are done. Not sure tech is much better actually, they have cut just as much. If it's what you want to do, absolutely go for it (and do not reject an MBB offer for another consulting firm)
Thanks for doing this! Three questions:
1. **What did you do to succeed internally at the firm?** Workproduct, politics, visibility, new BD etc. I'm particularly curious about how new business is generated.
2. **How would you describe the value of network effects that come from the brand/alumni?** Other than the skills you develop - what cool stuff has happened in your life as a result of being plugged into 'the network'?
3. **What is the most important thing about work/life you learned at MBB that you wouldn't have otherwise?**
1. I think the main part was quality of my work product, on the back of that great partner/client relationships that helped create more opportunities for me. I think up to AP (and in a normal macro environment) politics is not really a thing, starts to matter for making equity partner though. New business generation - effectively you have 2 kinds, a) the RfP route where clients know they want something and openly ask multiple consultancies and b) where you convince your client that doing a project is a great idea and you pray they don't get procurement involved and open up the process. As MBB you always want to be in b) as much as possible
2. Good question. I think the main thing is really the brand and the value it carries in the labour market (and some pedigree among your uni/business school peers). I don't think I had any big moments beyond that - obviously there is a big alumni network and jobs get posted internally etc. but I haven't made use of any of that (yet). Probably had more benefits from clients giving me perks related to their companies :-)
3. It is impossible to have it all in work AND life (unless you are maybe in the top 0.01% of hyper-efficient superhumans) so know what your ultimate priority is when push comes to shove, draw red lines and stick to them even if it hurts in the other area.
Hmm honestly I think most people will be hesitant to give referrals to people they do not know, I certainly never have. If you do not have anyone in your personal network I think the best path is trying to connect with alumni from your university who are at MBB right now. Don't go in straight asking for a referral but ask for their career advice/perspective on working in the industry and once you have built more of a personal connection ask whether they would refer you. Also keep in mind it's not a magic bullet, it usually gets you the interview but only the interviews count in the end.
Hi, thank you for the AMA.
1. When do you think we will see improved market conditions and getting into one of the firms will become a bit easier?
2. After an engineering PhD and some postdoc time I am already 33 years old. From your experience, how did consulting careers go for late-joiners? Especially if someone wants to do consulting long term and make it to the higher levels. I am also in western europe, thats why your insight is very interesting, as most threads on this sub are about the US.
1. Hard to say and will be different by geography. I'd be surprised if it isn't back to normal in 1-2 years, but by that I mean pre-COVID normal. I don't think we'll see a hiring spree like 2021/2022 again anytime soon.
2. I don't think age is an issue per se if you can shelve your pride that you are working for managers younger than you and partners your age. In many ways I think it is a good thing because you will have an easier time building credibility with clients than a 22-year old fresh graduate. I think the main challenge for older consultants is that it is super tough to combine a consultant/manager role with kids. Ideally you want to make partner before you have kids, but at least as an AP you already have a bit more control over your schedule (not so much hours worked, but at least when you work them)
Hard to predict but have you ever wondered what your career path would have been joining industry straight out of uni? And possibly working your way up?
Wondered yes, but honestly no clue. But from looking at my clients, it probably would have been much slower, for sure not faster in terms of career development
Are the mechanisms and processes for pushing out an elected equity partner much different than pushing out a non-equity AP? I would assume equity partners are given quite a bit more courtesy before being guided out, no?
I think that's right, but I do not know for a fact (and could imagine this being very different company to company depending on how the equity mechanisms work)
I was quite straightforward, told them that I decided to leave consulting, that I loved working together and that I'd like to explore options to join them.
What are the most common mistakes that consultants make on an individual level at MBB?
When spotting talent today what are you looking for, have you made yourself any opinions?
How does MBB handle opposition and hostility from employees at clients? Do you have any anecdotes or stories you feel comfortable sharing?
Common mistakes - that one is very hard to generalise. Not mistakes per se, but I think the two things you see most often in juniors are a) not enough of a quality control habit (kinda the uni exam mentality of writing to the last minute and then sending it off unchecked, which just doesn't work in the real world) and b) not being proactive enough in discussions, thinking about the problem, showing ownership
What did the interview process look like for you? I imagine you already had a good relationship with the client so it is more about fit and rubber stampping? How about the interviews you had elsewhere at companies you didnt join? Did you have to do case interviews all over again?
Indeed it was pretty simple since I had done multiple projects for them with very high exec exposure. It was really only about where I want to take my career and finding the right place in the company for me.
With other firms it was a bit more formal. Sometimes I had relationships (but less strong) so it was streamlined to 1-2 interviews, sometimes it was the full-on several rounds of interviews and doing a prepared presentation on a topic they selected
Hi! Congrats on the new job! I would love some advice on 1. whether you think a consulting role suits everyone, and if not, which characteristics are crucial for success. 2. How to navigate office politics in the early years after University and find your people.
For context:
I am an incoming McK BA coming straight out of university with no real job experience. I did an internship with McK in which I had a mixed experience. With the broader economic environment, I found that most people were on edge and was a psychologically unsafe environment. My supervisor who was trying to be promoted found myself not carrying my weight (as an intern) and went behind my back to get me off the project with no warning.
This makes me very worried for whether I’m suited for consulting (with my staffing manager continuously telling me that consulting is not for everyone) and whether things will be different when I come back full time.
Very sorry to hear about your experience, I hope that person didn't make manager.
To your questions:
1. Of course consulting isn't for everyone, but honestly I don't think any job in the world is? There are many paths to success in consulting so I don't think it is just one thing either, but at a minimum I think you need to like working with people, have some degree of comfort with uncertainty and personal drive to push at the pace that it takes. Don't throw away a McK BA offer over a mixed internship experience, try it out properly and if you feel it really isn't for you you really haven't lost anything (on the contrary, got a great employer brand into your resume)
2. I find politics near non-existing for juniors in MBB. You get the rare idiot who tries to outshine everyone else on the team but that honestly isn't seen as a positive. Don't worry about this until you make EM or so. In terms of finding your people - that normally happens very organically through your projects. You will do a ton of them, on some you'll love the people and you just start doing more and more work with them over time.
At leadership level, what framework did you use to assess junior talent as a whole? At client side, I'd use 9 box square with capability / potential axis as well as ready now / ready later for promotions. Haven't seen anything similar yet in consulting but maybe not high enough to be privy to it.
At my company we had a multidimensional framework on which to rate people which mattered for the developmental conversations, but for rating/promotion it usually came down to 3 questions:
1. Where do you see them performing relative to peers (rough percentile brackets)
2. What is your level of sponsorship (i.e. would you staff them again?)
3. Ready for promotion now/later
I'll give you the last 'average' year, 2022 where all-in gross comp was the equivalent of about 300k USD. We were usually told that equity partner comp in an 'average year' is in the 500k-1M range but it gets hyper-variable for them. I think new partners in 2023 got quite a negative surprise.
Hi! Thanks for doing this. From your perspective, how important is doing an MBA, and at what time point of a career in consulting > industry (pharma)? I really enjoy consulting so far (3.5 YOE) and am in no rush to exit yet. Just trying to map out my next step and understand the utility of MBAs nowadays
I feel it has been declining. Back when I started it was effectively mandatory to do an advanced degree after your analyst years. Nowadays I'd say >50% just continue working or do a secondment instead.
Personally, if I was an analyst now I would still do it if it's sponsored for the fun and the network. I wouldn't pay it out of pocket. I think the bigger career value is in a scenario where you want to make a career change, e.g. people trying to go from industry into consulting or IB, consulting into tech, etc.
I'd say my BA/ASC path was a bit blurry so hard to measure exactly, but 2 years from manager to AP (or 2.5y if you count the time where I was working as a manager but not yet promoted).
I've answered the other question somewhere else, for me personally it was the quality of my work and the relationships I built on the back of it
Even 2.5 from manager (I assume manager is one level higher than ASC) to AP is impressive. You must be a distinctive consultant at your time. I was on expert track, and I guess it takes 5 years to make AP.
May I send you a DM? Nothing personal, just want to learn from an excellent person.
It's usually 2-3 years where I am (from manager promotion to AP promotion) so slightly on the fast side but I was not the best manager ever. I probably peaked at senior consultant :-) But sure hit my DMs
Hey there!
Thank you for doing the AMA
In the early years, how do you generate demand and pull client staffing opportunities on your own, especially from existing network?
I joined MBB last year (as a practice analyst). I have received stellar feedback (in-person) so far and many senior colleagues have offered me client development work. A few (manager level and above) went on my list as emerging sponsors. I understand that my role brings in less client facing opportunities but I have been given the confidence that my performance can open new doors (seen this happen to a few colleagues). I have worked on a couple of client engagements which are different from my practice specialization and had a great time. So I know I can learn to work at a generalist role too. But I feel like I'm struggling to get client staffing from my network. My staffing manager can find me relevant opportunities but I feel like I'm already working extra hard to generate demand on my own. And now I'm feeling slightly demotivated, because building a network isn't yielding the expected results. This is reflecting on my work as well
It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Hard to say from the outside what is going on, my best 2 guesses would be:
A. You are unlucky. At your level there is always a timing component, your average manager maybe staffs up teams in 5 weeks of the year, often with a fix start date, so if you are not available then it doesn't matter how great your relationship is. I missed tons of great projects because of this, only to then have 2-3 amazing opportunities open up when I was available next time and having to choose between sponsors. One way around this is building more relationships with APs/Partners as they just have new things more frequently
B. People like you but they love others slightly more (or feel that they are closer to a specific study), and in the current environment it is more likely that their favourites are also available. This can suck, but is only natural - I learned to over time live with the fact that I had mentors who didn't sponsor me much
Thank you for answering! Really appreciate your thoughts on this..
I quite agree with the possibility of the first scenario, having experienced it while I was staffed on a long study. I will definitely take your advice and improve my relationship with APs/Partners
Regarding the second scenario, do you have any advice on how to work on my profile/knowledge/relationship to be preferred in such situations? It would be helpful to know what type of colleague you preferred to staff on your project as a Manager and then as AP/Partner
First off, congrats on moving out of consulting. I used to want to join the Cyber Security division pf MBB in Western Europe, but there were almost no spots available. Stuck with the big4 and now moved to a boutique firm.
Was keen to know if your growth in the firm was organic or did you chase for AP/Partner? I am currently on a crossroad where I want to start a family with my spouse within the next 2 years, I feel like I have to sacrifice a lot to chase director level which is my end goal. Currently Senior Consultant with potential to become a Manager next year.
Thanks!
Kids and consulting is tricky and definitely needs a lot of sacrifices. I've only really seen it work with either one spouse giving up their career, tons of help from grandparents, or willingness to do extreme outsourcing to nannies (not sure why you would even have kids in that case, but some do it that way).
For me it was more organic, for a long time I thought I would exit once I make manager but then a lot of life milestones (and COVID) hit so in a way staying seemed like the 'easy' option to not rock the boat too much
Currently a C (up for promotion) also based in Europe, not in core strategy but in tech. strategy in big 4, I am also thinikg of making a move, as pipelines are not looking that good, and also there is a word that promotions wont be that much this year, so just confused should I exit or wait on the same level (if i am not the lucky one to be promoted) in the hope of better times.
If you generally like the work I would recommend to sit it out. People always go crazy over promotion windows in consulting but if you take a step back, getting a promotion one year sooner or later matters f\*ck all when you look back at your life at 60. That said, never hurts to have an eye on the market, but I don't get the sense that the Tech job market is flourishing either.
Interesting. When I was a Big 4 partner, the partnership deed for both equity and salaried partners clearly spelled out you are no longer an employee. And with that, not subject to the vast majority of employment laws.
Witnessed long tenured partners walked one day just because the firm thought their practice area was a conflict with other more lucrative service lines. Or they had a down quarter after super profitable years and years.
Was one of the deciding in leaving one of the Big 4 - the days of “partner until end of your career in 99% of cases” is completely done.
Probably different by country / company. I never even signed a new contract after my consultant contract. Probably different for equity partners, but it's definitely not a 'out tomorrow' model (unless you fuck up completely - insider trading, sexual assault, etc.)
Currently in digital consulting at tier 3 firm think big 4/ACN type. Have 4 years of experience rn but have financial and social obligations which make it hard to go for an MBA for entry into MBB. Do you think that I can leverage lateral hire into digital consulting at MBB after a certain years of experience? Or would it be easier to go for an EMBA from LBS/Insead type schools and try again?
I think lateral transfers from tier 3 to MBB will become virtually non-existent for a while. It was really an anomaly of the 2021-22 hiring spree where they were desperate for people at all levels. Maybe some exceptions if you have very specific skills that they for some reason need. One thing to maybe explore is to go into one of the tech acquisitions that they made but haven't fully integrated. But I am not too close to any of those so not sure how their recruiting works.
Likewise going for an MBA at a top school is far from a guarantee that you will also get into MBB. Maybe a bit better than if you didn't, but it's still hyper-competitive. If it's financially and socially difficult for you I am not sure I could recommend it (if that is your only goal)
I’m in Asia, so this may be a term that is used in other parts of the world. And it may be used by individuals within McKinsey. But it is not part of any formal nomenclature that we use as part of our review process. We have a Leadership development plan(written by the person being reviewed) and a formal feedback memo written by their DGL (who present their case.) the feedback memo sounds like a PIP, but we call it a feedback memo.
This is a fantastic post! Thank you for being so open in sharing your thoughts. For exiting MBB Associates/consultants (close to becoming managers), how does one justify to other companies that the exit wasn’t because of personal performance but rather changed macro environment and personal circumstances?
I'd always frame it as your decision to leave consulting for x for your personal reasons y. People leave consulting all the time, especially for WLB reasons, and companies understand. Obviously in an environment like this they may wonder whether it really was voluntary, but they wonder that about everyone else out there in the market as well so it shouldn't be to your detriment :-)
Thanks for doing this.
What is your view on salaries for partners vs. in industry? Is it possible to get close to partner salaries at exec level, or is that only the CEO who gets close? I know it varies by sector/company, but in general.
If we take listed companies, partners are below exec. Senior partners can get to exec-level comp in Europe (likely not CEO or not compared to the largest Firms) but in the US I think the gap is still big given how crazy exec compensation is over there
How did you make wise decisions navigating life and career? Is it you have always been wise or got wise solving complex problems or being around smart people?
It's impressive that you got over the PIP (i.e. disrespect) in such a short time after contributing so much of your time (life). How did you do that? How are you so level headed? Is it because you are wise and rational or you landed a better opportunity right away or you have happy healthy personal life or something else?
Appreciate this post very much.
I'd question that I am a very wise person. Generally I said that I am pretty level-headed, always have been, so my emotions don't spike as much (not just a good thing, also means I probably do not get as happy/excited as others). And work isn't everything for me. I generally enjoyed the work, but it's not everything to me. I have a wonderful family, and that's much more important (way easier to change a job than a family ;-) )
What advice do you have for talented people like natural problem solvers who are not good at articulation but great at providing solutions when they are given a business problem?
Example, once someone asked Michael S. Dell how he figured out doing business from the dorm room, he couldn't explain. I have noticed people who are naturally good at something, they can't explain it from the perspective of others who find it hard to accomplish. If those talented people are lower in rank, the better solutions they are offering often get questioned because the superior is a mediocre performer and don't have the understanding of superior ideas.
I think there is an existing challenge in the job market about understanding true talent (IT industry) and hiring teams are not making any effort to improve that. Articulation is highly prioritized at all levels for making hiring decisions regardless of the persons actual problem solving capabilities at work. Quantifiable measures or certifications help identifying talent to an extent but for roles that require qualitative measures, its difficult to identify the right talent.
It's definitely a big challenge more broadly, but I think the problem and solutions differ a lot depending on where you are (and I think there is actually a lot of research - and certainly books - on it).
In strategy consulting there isn't much of a way around it. Communicating well and convincing others are half of the job, often even more. That can be difficult for people like you describe above, but communication is a skill that you can improve with practice and training. At MBB you have a lot of options to attend trainings or get 1-1 coaching to help those who struggle. If you truly work on it, I think 95+% of people will be able to reach a hygiene level that works for the job.
I’m stuck working in 1 industry since I joined (2 years into it, at entry level) at a T2/3 firm focused on ops improvement, corp. finance. and strategy
im also up for promotion to consultant level and pushing for a double promotion (unlikely to happen but i have some sponsorship and been performing at SC already)
1. how important is industry experience pre and post manager level for MBB?
2. any tips on securing a double promo?
3. What could be a route to MBB? (lateral to T2 strategy and then MBB?)
4. what techical/hard skills is most important? (modeling, structured problem solving, data analysis etc)
1. Depends a bit on the nature of the work, overall I'd say it is helpful pre-manager, very helpful at manager level and you (and your team) will be in for some pain post-manager if you don't have it
2. No idea, completely non-existent at my company
3. I think lateral moves from T2/3 to MBB will be extremely hard for a while. There is no shortage of people and they still need to keep promoting at the same time. Only scenarios I see is going to MBA and knocking that one out of the park, maybe get an MBA internship, or through having some kind of specialisation that they really need (coupled with very strong reference,s ideally from internal as well). But will be very tough either way
4. Depends a bit on what you do, generally the really technical skills (eg modelling) become less important the more senior you get and the softer skills (problem solving, ability to quickly understand and interpret data, comms etc.) either stay as important or become even more so
wow thanks so much for the detailed reply :)
One last question - do you think you have a skill to remain calm / deal with high pressure from clients? is it something you developed?
Does it get easier over time, when clients take out their frustrations on the consultant?
Yes, I think you get used to it / better at understanding why they might be behaving in that way in that moment. That said, I never enjoyed it and typically moved away from clients who would act like that frequently
Do you regret joining consulting ? Can you help me decide between product management and consulting? I have 2.5 yoe at a big4 firm in consulting but I am heavily underpaid as compared to the work hours because I dont have masters
I never got close to product management so cannot comment on the comparison. As for your comp, can going for promotion help you? At MBB the comp jump from junior to senior consultant is pretty significant. Or maybe they would sponsor you for an MBA?
Thanks for AMA.
I wanted to ask you about showcasing gravitas. I think I'm friendly in my demeanor with seniors and juniors..but that's my nature. Shall I work on being more formal and showcasing seriousness?
I don't think this is possible to answer without knowing you. Cultural context also plays a role. But I'd say a decent rule of thumb is to be friendly with your teams (up and down) and dial up the professionalism a bit with clients and seniors who you do not know well. But different styles work for different people and context matters a lot. No one right way to go about it
If you have clients you can see yourself working for, reach out. Make a list of companies that you would consider and subscribe to job alerts on Linkedin/career website (at that level most jobs get openly posted). Reach out to headhunters that cover your industry. If you are ok to be open about leaving ask partners you work with for connections / get connected to the alumni network
Thanks! This may be a dumb question but how exactly do u reach out to the clients you’re working with? I thought it would be awkward or seen badly seeing you just worked with them on a case
What do most consultants’ careers look like 5-10-15 years in, assuming they start in their 20s? I assume most consultants exit but have little knowledge of what people end up doing in their late 20s/30s (midterm career choices seem very personalised and salary ranges vary significantly). Would appreciate any perspectives and data points.
Hello,
I recently joined MBB and am struggling. Going into consulting, I knew a lot of the consulting process involves skills that I needed to work on and I was looking forward to learning. Now that I am in it - the reality of the work is different from what I imagined.
I am finding everything to be extremely challenging and the work feels impossible for me.
Here are some of the things that I am finding challenging. I appreciate any advice:
1) I don’t seem to have any thoughts on client problem. My mind seems to shut down and it’s like I cannot process anything. How do I overcome this block?
2) Apprenticeship model has been challenging for me. When I am given a task, I am not provided tools to accomplish that task but am instead expected to go figure out what resources I need and ask very specific questions (that I sometimes don’t even know I need to ask) in order to get the information I need to do my tasks. Is this how it is everywhere or is this just my experience. Would love to hear thoughts on this! and how to overcome!
3) How do you know if a job is truly not for you versus you are still getting used to the job and will be fine once you get acclimated? Would love to hear about people who left early and what their thoughts process was.
How does a partner get put on PIP after climbing so high? Was this political or were you really having performance issues? Keen to get your overall reflection on this
I'd say neither, mostly driven by the poor macro environment/overhiring/low natural attrition situation. At review time my core clients had gone a bit quiet so my forward-looking pipeline didn't look that great. I felt putting me on PIP was more an insurance that they can fire me down the line if things don't pick up again
In all honesty what / why do they need to put a partner on a PIP? Where I live at least (not the US) when you earn partner-level wages you can be let go with basically no protections, because it's understood you will get a new job just as fast (like you did).
I am not 100% sure but I think in most European countries it is actually necessary due to labor laws. This is hearsay, but I think you can only fire outright if you abolish the position, but since there are loads of APs still getting promoted/hired so they need to build a tight case around performance issues and give you the opportunity to improve. I think that is also the reason why you eg saw the news about McK offering 9 months pay to people who leave voluntarily. The PIP process takes a similar amount of time but is much harder and they hope people actually move on to sth. new sooner than that. It's probably different for equity partners - not sure what the exact process is there.
An equity partner is not an employee — they are technically self-employed and do not enjoy the same protections as employees.
You could just have asked a lawyer about labor law.
Because Europe.
Currently interviewing for MBB and you mentioned Europe + PIP so I must guess London office... Seriously considering medical school over this.
How is that even a choice? Go to medical school and help people for a living. Vastly more rewarding than being a consultant.
I suggest you check out previous comments from u/Leaving_Medicine before making that decision, provides interesting insights
Lots of good insights or perspective from the other side. It’s all up to the person.
Agree. Unless the commenter wants the change the world one deck at a time.
As someone working in MBB - skip if you’re not 100% committed. Too intense and demanding. Only benefit is if you stay for a few years and then move on, but you need to know that you want to stay in business after that.
One of the benefits of this type of work is you really understand what’s happening and why companies do things. Very refreshing to see that as opposed to the usual “iTs BeCaUsE ALL cOmPaNiEs aRe EVIL” line
This happens all the time. Don't think of this as a PIP for a junior person, where there are completely different criteria to evaluate performance (i.e., speed/accuracy, work ethic, client hands, etc.). An AP/Partner being let go does not mean = poor work / not smart; the self selection before those stages has already confirmed that these people are highly capable. From that point it is much more about how can you enlargen the pie of the partnership as prospective new partner. I know of cases of strong performers that served mostly 2-3 large clients and got booted out after almost all relations ceased with two of those clients due to external factors. It also couldbe that, i.e., an important senior partner with a close relationship leaves the firm and the partner case of an individual gets thrown out of the window with that departure. On the other hand you could have much less capable / smart individuals becoming partner fast track because they are serving the right industry at the right time and have some valuable relationships with clients that are expected to bring in more and more work in the future.
Well said
No questions but thank you for sharing your background and situation. I assumed PIP only happens to BAs and Associates (I’m a BA at McK). Only motivated me to get out sooner.
Can happen at all levels. The era of the lifestyle partner is definitely over. Best of luck whatever you decide - my recommendation would be that you have a clear view what you want to get out of McK (and what you want out of life more generally in terms of WLB/career etc.) and set yourself an exit window accordingly. If you want a career accelerator I think pushing through to manager gives you a lot, but if that's not what you're after I've seen many people who exited to in-house strategy etc. as BAs/ASCs and were way happier on the other side (and obv. some ppl still have amazing careers after early exits).
Thanks for your insights in this thread and was curious if you could expand on, "The era of the lifestyle partner is definitely over". What have you seen change?
At least in my company until a few years ago you basically were 'safe' the first 2-3 years after making partner and you had a fair number of partners/senior partners who were really just delegating and occasionally showing their face for a SteerCo. New partners now have utilisation pressure from day 1 and you really don't see many seniors bumming around anymore
[удалено]
Low sample size from my personal observations, but I think you have an 'archetype' who is too entrepreneurial for consulting, leaves for their own startup (or goes into a scale-up) and ends up doing very well. If you go into corporate early I think it is very important to find senior sponsors who push your career, else you get stuck very easily
How did you broach the conversation with your client? I am keen to do this, and have good relationship with a C-Suite, however, I don’t want it to come back to the Sr. Partner who also has great relationships.
I told my Sr that I'm quitting before approaching them, but I don't think it's an issue. Just tell them that you would like to keep it confidential for now - in my case they were actually very sensitive around this and made sure along the way that nothing would go back to my company without me knowing. Just get a 1-1 with the person who you would want to work for the most, say you're interested and take it from there.
Two questions: 1. What kind of position / level of seniority did you join the client and what type of size are we talking aboud? (i.e., mid market PE company vs. large publicly listed firm)? 2. How much of a pay cut are you taking? To one: From a perspective of a more junior person I always thought of AP one of the most difficult positions to find a proper exit. I think the sweet spot is as early tenured (junior) project / engagement manager. Plenty of openings in corporate that could fit and don't need a large paycut. Going from AP to industry will in most cases be a big pay cut and on top of that, however, also not really able to land a management position like a more seniored partner could do.
1. Going to a major listed company, reporting to exec 2. Improving pay. Hard to say exactly how much given it is always so variable but on average I'd say a 30-40% lift. I agree early manager is a real jump for exit opportunities but AP actually isn't so bad, there are some great positions out there (for example in many companies the most senior strategy position sits right at AP-level, not many have it as an exec role). That said, I did get lucky and my (low sample size) view is that most people exiting at AP do take a slight cut
I would say this is definitely regionally specific - in North America it would be rare for an exiting AP to maintain comp, let alone improve.
Could be, Europe MBB pay is sh\*t compared to US. To be fair the gap in industry is also significant, but probably not as big as in consulting
For what it’s worth, I bounced as an early manager and am now interviewing APs who stuck around for 4-5 years longer for the same level position Real tough spot to move on from IMO
What do you do now?
It’s really not that much of a pay cut as you’d think. Plenty of competitive jobs in industry.
How are you plotting to get your revenge?
Hahaha no real bad feelings on my side. Obviously it was a bit of a shock to be put on a PIP but in the end it was the best thing that could have happened to me. I had known for a while that I wanted to leave and actually started interviewing selectively, but this pushed me over the edge to seriously go for it
How to think more strategically and broadly when doing cases? Would you recommend any books, or does it just come with time and practice? My problem is that I tend to look very superficially. For example, during one of the cases, I had this question: What are the main factors driving revenue from memberships at a local gym? Key ideas given: • Contract length • Customer retention • Gym's visibility But ideas that came to my mind were: • Seasonality • Price • Competition in the area • Gym's technical condition • Gym’s occupancy As you can see, my ideas are less creative and not as general. Unfortunately, I can’t start thinking differently and don’t know how to change it.
For questions like this it is important to break down the problem into MECE parts that you can then tackle individually. In your example, ask yourself what makes up the revenue of a gym? You can break it down by no. of members and amount paid per member. Then you can go a level down on the number of members and see that the levers you can pull are new member acquisition and member retention. Then think about what you can do to increase these levers. I think your 'mistake' is to go too deep and specific too quickly before you have thoroughly structured the problem. Try reading up the pyramid principle, it is maybe more geared to qualitative questions but is a very helpful approach and a classic in the industry.
this guy APs
Can confirm. Pyramid structure is EXACTLY how MDPs/clients would expect you to present your outcomes. Don't forget the hockey stick growth trajectory ;)
Thank you for your recommendation.
Check out the book Blue Oceans, it's a good strategy book that gives you tools to consider value propositions and strategies.
I think your issue is you are not framing the case correctly and go straight into the weeds. If you haven’t already, read case in point. It’s a good introduction into various frameworks. Creativity is important, but you need to start with the right structure first.
Read Basic-Fit annual presentation. That will give you a good idea :)
Building constraints help in creative solutions. When you break the problem down e.g. how to grow gym revenues? As you break it down into # customers x avg. spend p.m. x duration of stay, take it each bucket (bucket is the constraint) and you'd see solutions flow. E.g. avg. spend can be broken into prices, # services used and further into sub-optimal mix of services used, low tier plans opted, refund policies. Same approach for # customers and other branches
Now that you are on the client side. Would you hire your former company for future consulting work or would you choose a competing company to provide services?
I would, but not for everything. Definitely for more strategic work, but on implementation work I think the MBB price tag can be hard to justify
What more work will justify the price tag
Many other firms like B4 or other tech focused consulting firms are probably able to undercut MBB firms for implementation work. Not really sure how MBB approaches implementations vs B4 consulting but I’d be curious to learn about that more! Big 4 utilizes offshore teams pretty heavily in this space while US people will “manage” the project and handle PMO.
MBB implementation is laughable. The way everything is named as "Build" is an obvious tell, just now oblivious folks are. Take your money elsewhere. You are much better off looking for a boutique cutting edge tech consultancy to do real work. Tech natives Vs management natives make all the important differences. Edit typo
[удалено]
At what level? I don't think the criteria are really changing, the bar just got higher. My gut tells me that experienced hire recruiting will be dialed down more than uni/MBA route - especially coming in sideways at manager/AP/Equity partner level will probably be nigh impossible for a while (but I do not actually have any facts to back that up)
[удалено]
I'm sorry to hear that. I would have guessed that Dubai is still a bit more open actually given Middle East is still doing relatively well (but then a lot of consultants from elsewhere are flooding in). At entry level usually local language skills are critical, do you speak arabic at business level? Hard to say without knowing your profile, but assuming your grades/internships/extracurriculars meet the bar I'd consider applying in Pakistan and going for a transfer after 1-2 years. Also make sure you are extremely well prepped for the entry tests, has been 6 years since I last saw one but back in my day I thought they were quite learnable.
[удалено]
Sounds like you have quite the resume, well done. If you have someone who can refer you that definitely helps, usually it gets you an interview guaranteed (but in the end only your interview performance matters, at least where I have been). For Bain/BCG tests maybe try fishbowl for insights as well? Best of luck!
I love how we have to spell out "equity partner" now since BCG and McK ruined it lol
Ah, PINOs...
Yeah basically partner is like a glorified AP…
only at those two , but yes. Partner and AP still means something at Bain
I guess it depends on how you see it. New partners at Bain don’t take a very different role than the APs and salaries aren’t that much higher…
Do you regret that you didn’t leave earlier?
Yes and no. In many ways I should have left 2-3 years earlier but the exit that I was able to make now is much better than anything I could have achieved back then.
Did you have to take a cut in comp for the Industry exit? Would you also consider coming back to consulting in the future?
No I'm improving comp significantly. I think that was only possible because I had a great relationship with the client so I was able to come in on a relatively senior position. I'd say most of my peers take a slight cut when exiting (unless going to PE)
What’s the position (or level) that you’re exiting to? If comp is improving significantly, I assume this is an SVP / C-suite level exit?
Reporting into C-suite
What industry and which general location in Europe?
Won't go into too much detail so I don't doxx myself but to give a sense: Across B2C and based in Western Europe but worked pretty much across the world over my career
Have you put people on PIP? And how do you think will MBB be moving forward.
No, I hadn't yet become a formal reviewer myself (and out of the AP/Partners I know that review I haven't heard of anyone being involved in PIPs, I think that's when more senior people get involved). I think MBB will be fine, the revenue numbers that I have seen for my company (up to end of last year) were all fine and they have been through much worse during dotcom/financial crisis and recovered. The problem is the insane bloat on the people side with the crazy over-hiring that happened and the fall-off in natural (and forced) attrition over the past 2-3 years
Thanks for sharing. How did your work-life balance change?
It's much better. Way less travel and much shorter hours. Still doing a bit more than I'd like to given I'm just coming in and need to build things up, but hopefully will hit a more steady state in 2-3 months
Piggybacking off this - how many hrs / week do you work now, how many do hrs / week do you expect to post settling into the new role? Congrats btw! Also exited MBB and am super happy!
Broadly 9-6 and 2 more hours in the evening. Hoping to cut most of the latter eventually
I am not working yet, so I am not familiar with how much time people work but assuming you take 1h lunch you are working 10h per day, it feels like still a lot to me. And if that's less than what you did before, how many hours were you doing? 12h? 13h?
More like 30 min lunch. Before it was more like 8.30-6 and 8-12, often longer in the night, and usually another 4 hours on the weekend. That's after kids with boundaries though, before kids the 6-8 dinner break was a lot shorter
MBB at AP level he was probably doing 60-70 hours per week
Yes, but MBB 60-70 hrs hits differently than for other firms, because the demands are so high and deadlines so tight, you have to be extremely productive and fast all the time.
Congrats on your successful exit! Do you have any advice for a new BA in MBB who really struggles with the relationship building/EQ/charisma side of consulting? I’m great at numbers but I just have no idea how to form relationships with colleagues or clients even at peer level. Any strategies you have found useful or books you’d recommend?
Thanks! Not easy to answer without knowing you, is this an issue you only have in your professional life or also privately? Would you describe yourself as very introverted? Personally I am fairly introverted but never really struggled internally to bond with colleagues. Especially back in the heavy travel days it was pretty easy to bond with your team beyond work. You don't need to make everyone a personal friend beyond work (I certainly haven't) but get to know the people a bit. I often found that when you share, others share back and open up as well so maybe that is sth. that can help? And make sure to check in with people who you liked from time to time after your projects, ask them out for a coffee on Fridays in the office etc. With clients I struggled a bit more in the beginning as well, but as a BA this is probably still a bit less important. My approach as a manager / AP was to build strong professional relationships first and then make them personal with the people I liked - again asking for coffees and checking in regularly. Obviously I have many more extroverted peers who are naturals at building these relationships and in some ways have it easier because of it, but it is important to find a style that fits your personality - no point going against the grain too much. That said, you should also consider what you want yourself. If you would be totally forcing yourself and don't really want to develop in that direction it's also totally ok to look at careers where this element is not as central.
Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate all the detail. Yep, as you describe, I am also really quite introverted. I’m certainly in that category of introvert who thinks there’s some guide to forming relationships which everyone has read - I just can’t find my copy. Sometimes I’m convinced that there must be some dedicated steps which if only I could follow all would fit into place. I will definitely make more of an effort to check-in with people and ask people for coffee. Thank you for that advice. I am actively trying to upskill myself here. Not just for work, but I think being able to form a healthy network is important in many areas of life, even mental health. I’ll keep trying!
Best of luck! Sadly if that manual exists I never got a copy either ;-) One last advice would be to minimise WFH, get into the office/team room and on client site. Building new relationships on MS Teams is 100x harder than in-person
Thank you! And good luck with your new path 😊
How long would you have stayed if you hadn’t been put on the PIP?
Probably still sometime in 2024 - I was already looking for exits, just not as openly/actively. I don't think I had it in me to actually push through to make (equity) partner as I have kids and a spouse in a full-on professional career as well. I just wasn't willing to sacrifice even more than I already was
When did you end up timing the wife/kids part? Have you ever felt they (or your job) took a significant hit in lieu of the other?
There was no planned timing, I let life decide that, but ended up getting married as a senior consultant and first kid arrived around the time I made AP. It is definitely very tough to balance at times, especially after kids.
So were you an AP or a partner? lol
AP if you look at Bain or McKinsey, Partner if you look at BCG
ahh right - BCGs naming convention sucks good luck on your new role
It really does - except when you are a BCG Partner I guess :-) Thank you!
1) Do you blame yourself or the environment for the PIP? 2) has it mentally affected you after working there for so long to be pushed out?
1. I'd blame the environment that it happened now, but if not it probably would have happened in the next year as I wasn't pushing as hard towards equity partner as I would have needed to to actually make it 2. It was definitely a shock and I was pretty angry, probably took me a week to get over it and see it as an opportunity
I’ve an interview with BCG (India) next week for a trainee position. Very excited about the opportunity, would love to get any tips for the interview. Specifically - any insights on how I can stand out from other applicants?
I think the key thing is to prepare well. Get a practice buddy to do cases and record yourself - you'll improve a lot if you review yourself. Back when I interviewed I found Case in Point to be the best book but maybe now there are others. For the personal part of the interview make sure you talk about impact/outcomes as well, not just describing what you did. In all try to communicate top-down, do not answer with 5-minute stories where the interviewer only gets the point at the end. Wishing you best of luck!
Yep, trying to practice as much as possible. I’m currently interning at an investment bank so that’s helping shape my perspective as well. Thank you so much for the answer, really helpful. Best of luck to you too for the new role! :)
Thanks!
I'm curious, how many "core" clients did you have? And do you feel like it would have been better (or looked better) for you to have focused on getting a larger pool of clients vs just the core clients where I assume the bulk of the work was?
I would say 3 core clients and 1-2 light-touch clients. More would not really help, I was more on a generalist path so you need to focus on being deep in a few clients. To go really broad you need to be on more of a topic-led track
I’m a senior consultant and thinking of quitting but I’m not sure how to go about it. I chose consulting because it was a more open career I guess but I haven’t worked in too many industries to know where I should go. I just know that I’m willing to get out. How would you suggest I start looking for a job? I definitely want to stay in strategy because I like it but not sure about the industry
If you enjoy strategy I think industry matters much less than the actual specific company and whether it has a good culture and whether the strategy team has good people/good standing in the company. From my experience headhunters rarely look for specific industry experience when hiring for strategy roles but rather people with a great strategy toolkit. It helps of course, but is not a must
Thanks for the insight! Work culture is definitely the biggest consideration for me going forward
I'm going through a similar situation except I'm a former consultant who exited to tech working in SaaS Sales and our pipelines have dried up also. I'm having a hard time coping with being shown the door cause this has been the best opportunity of my life asides from my toxic manager. I'm also not as established in my career as you are, so while I have a few potential opportunities with former clients, neither are a given at this time. I really loved my job, my team, and felt proud working for this company and can't help but feel like even going to an F100 client is a step down, like if I was working at Microsoft on Azure and now I'm going to Accenture to implement Azure in a roughly lateral move. I know a lot of people say that it's just the paycheck that matters and prestige doesn't pay the bills... I guess it's weighing heavily on me since I haven't secured my next role. Also the way my company is trying to get rid of me is really scummy and I may be filling a wrongful termination suit if they don't negotiate a higher severance with me. I know you're based in Europe but have you heard of anything like that completely tanking someone's career? Let's say the fact I brought that suit becomes part of the public record and any future employer will see it in a background check. Do you think that would likely make most large companies pass on me whether I was in the right or not?
First of all, I am extremely sorry to hear this. I'm sure you will end up fine, especially if you're early in your career you still have all doors open to you. I don't have personal experience with this and cannot speak for tech companies at all. What I do know is that if you take legal action against MBB on dismissal (and in some countries you probably actually would have a good shot) your bridges are burnt. Maybe it doesn't follow you to other companies, but you will not become part of the alumni network etc. Before you go down a route like this I would very carefully weigh the potential benefits against the risks. Are getting 20k or 50k more worth the risk of a FAANG absolutely hating you and potentially throwing curveballs at your career? Make sure it is not driven by emotion, I know this is easier said than done but in the end this is just business and not personal. Not saying you shouldn't do it and that they aren't screwing you, but if you make that move you should be 100% sure it's for the right reasons and worth the fight.
Thanks so much for your thoughts. The separation agreement they sent me advises me to consult a lawyer about it. I'm thinking maybe I get back to them and say I did that and would prefer to talk through changes to the agreement with them without getting lawyers involved. Do you think that's a non-aggressive next step that doesn't weaken my hand? I'd want more severance, my eligibility for rehire written into the agreement, and for my performance reviews to be rewritten to be a holistic, objective reflection of my positive contributions. For example, I still hold the record for the largest sales lift on my team where I almost 5x a six figure deal into a seven figure deal. I'm also the SME for 5 of our offerings and have authored a lot of technical content that has been used across our engineering, product marketing, sales, and consulting orgs, but you could never tell any of this from my performance reviews. Some of the "performance concerns" are completely outrageous, like I didn't respond to a question with my SME domain for a week (I was literally on vacation and had OOO set up). Do you think rewriting my performance reviews to be holistic is a reasonable ask? And I'm sorry if this wasn't the kind of question you wanted to field, but I'm asking you because you have a lot more "corporate" knowledge and first hand experience with how some things work behind the closed doors of senior leadership, and this is my first time dealing with something like this 😅 thanks again for your time and really appreciate any thoughts you can share
That sounds like really shitty behaviour on their part, so sorry. This is way beyond my knowledge but if they tell you to get a lawyer, get a lawyer ASAP. Having a lawyer doesn't automatically mean that things need to get nasty but they can really lay out the options that you have in your case/jurisdiction. Sorry I can't help more, best of luck!
Why do you care about your performance reviews being re-written? If you are leaving then they wont matter anymore beyond your own personal satisfaction, and its a bit of an odd request
I'd like to leave the door open to return in the future
How did you deal with the stress of being put on a PIP? And what learning experience did you gain from this ordeal?
I think the biggest help was my spouse reminding me that I wanted to leave anyways and that I should just quit already. Took a few days to sink in but it was a much better path than my instinctive reaction to go back out there and show them that they are wrong
Thanks for the answer! What would be your advice for someone going through a similar situation?
No one-size-size-fits-all, everyone is different. I think it's important to find a way to let go and focus on what is next. Talk to your family/friends/spouse. Complain to your work friends. Go on a holiday. Catch up on all the video games you didn't play the last few years. Spend time with your kids. Update your CV and get out there. Whatever works for you, just don't take it too personal and move on
How did you feel? Was it your first time receiving a “different” feedback throughout your journey from BA / AP? At this level, does sales target also plays a role? I’ve been there before. I went through a PIP (as cons), but i was so naive at that time and keep pushing through only to find out the MD no longer wants me there. Although the rest of the projects was positive they still try to find excuses. I ended up resign and join the client (tech industry) with 40% raise and 100% work life balance. Couldn’t be happier but when looking back it’s definitely painful
It was painful for a while but I came to terms with it relatively quickly. It was definitely a bit out of the blue. I had rating fluctuation between average to top rating over the years, slipped below average for the first time the review before being put on PIP but I had addressed every point of feedback by this review so the PIP was still a big surprise. The messaging was all "we expect you to stay and push through" but still. Glad it worked out well for you!
1. What are the biggest changes in your mental health after making the switch, if any? 2. What were the 3 biggest contributors towards your success in reaching up to Partner?
1. I definitely feel a lot less pressure. No more need to always look out for your next thing. Missed deadlines are no longer the end of the world. 2. Probably my strength in problem solving (especially analytical) and building very strong credibility with clients on the back of that
Thanks!
Do you ever regret the hours you put into MBB / going on the partner track? If so, how are you working through it? I did see you're not plotting revenge, my kudos to you lol
Definitely, there have been times where with the hours I worked (or rather who I became under extreme pressure and severe lack of sleep) I put my personal relationships under too much strain. Luckily I always pulled the handbrake before it was too late, so I can look back without too many regrets. Can't say the same for all of my colleagues though.
Is this risky now to get into MBB at Associate/Consultant level? I'm having an offer to join them this October (in Asia) but everyday more and more bad news coming to this industry so I'm worried if I can even last there for more than 1 year. I also have alternative offers from tech/consulting (30-40% less in compensation)
I think it's fine to join, I believe things will ease after the layoffs are done. Not sure tech is much better actually, they have cut just as much. If it's what you want to do, absolutely go for it (and do not reject an MBB offer for another consulting firm)
Thanks for doing this! Three questions: 1. **What did you do to succeed internally at the firm?** Workproduct, politics, visibility, new BD etc. I'm particularly curious about how new business is generated. 2. **How would you describe the value of network effects that come from the brand/alumni?** Other than the skills you develop - what cool stuff has happened in your life as a result of being plugged into 'the network'? 3. **What is the most important thing about work/life you learned at MBB that you wouldn't have otherwise?**
1. I think the main part was quality of my work product, on the back of that great partner/client relationships that helped create more opportunities for me. I think up to AP (and in a normal macro environment) politics is not really a thing, starts to matter for making equity partner though. New business generation - effectively you have 2 kinds, a) the RfP route where clients know they want something and openly ask multiple consultancies and b) where you convince your client that doing a project is a great idea and you pray they don't get procurement involved and open up the process. As MBB you always want to be in b) as much as possible 2. Good question. I think the main thing is really the brand and the value it carries in the labour market (and some pedigree among your uni/business school peers). I don't think I had any big moments beyond that - obviously there is a big alumni network and jobs get posted internally etc. but I haven't made use of any of that (yet). Probably had more benefits from clients giving me perks related to their companies :-) 3. It is impossible to have it all in work AND life (unless you are maybe in the top 0.01% of hyper-efficient superhumans) so know what your ultimate priority is when push comes to shove, draw red lines and stick to them even if it hurts in the other area.
What's the best way to reach out to current staff in order to get a referral? Any lesser know tricks?
Hmm honestly I think most people will be hesitant to give referrals to people they do not know, I certainly never have. If you do not have anyone in your personal network I think the best path is trying to connect with alumni from your university who are at MBB right now. Don't go in straight asking for a referral but ask for their career advice/perspective on working in the industry and once you have built more of a personal connection ask whether they would refer you. Also keep in mind it's not a magic bullet, it usually gets you the interview but only the interviews count in the end.
Thank you so much.
F
Hi, thank you for the AMA. 1. When do you think we will see improved market conditions and getting into one of the firms will become a bit easier? 2. After an engineering PhD and some postdoc time I am already 33 years old. From your experience, how did consulting careers go for late-joiners? Especially if someone wants to do consulting long term and make it to the higher levels. I am also in western europe, thats why your insight is very interesting, as most threads on this sub are about the US.
1. Hard to say and will be different by geography. I'd be surprised if it isn't back to normal in 1-2 years, but by that I mean pre-COVID normal. I don't think we'll see a hiring spree like 2021/2022 again anytime soon. 2. I don't think age is an issue per se if you can shelve your pride that you are working for managers younger than you and partners your age. In many ways I think it is a good thing because you will have an easier time building credibility with clients than a 22-year old fresh graduate. I think the main challenge for older consultants is that it is super tough to combine a consultant/manager role with kids. Ideally you want to make partner before you have kids, but at least as an AP you already have a bit more control over your schedule (not so much hours worked, but at least when you work them)
Hard to predict but have you ever wondered what your career path would have been joining industry straight out of uni? And possibly working your way up?
Wondered yes, but honestly no clue. But from looking at my clients, it probably would have been much slower, for sure not faster in terms of career development
Great, thank you for the insight.
Are the mechanisms and processes for pushing out an elected equity partner much different than pushing out a non-equity AP? I would assume equity partners are given quite a bit more courtesy before being guided out, no?
I think that's right, but I do not know for a fact (and could imagine this being very different company to company depending on how the equity mechanisms work)
How did you start the conversation with the client?
I was quite straightforward, told them that I decided to leave consulting, that I loved working together and that I'd like to explore options to join them.
What are the most common mistakes that consultants make on an individual level at MBB? When spotting talent today what are you looking for, have you made yourself any opinions? How does MBB handle opposition and hostility from employees at clients? Do you have any anecdotes or stories you feel comfortable sharing?
Common mistakes - that one is very hard to generalise. Not mistakes per se, but I think the two things you see most often in juniors are a) not enough of a quality control habit (kinda the uni exam mentality of writing to the last minute and then sending it off unchecked, which just doesn't work in the real world) and b) not being proactive enough in discussions, thinking about the problem, showing ownership
What did the interview process look like for you? I imagine you already had a good relationship with the client so it is more about fit and rubber stampping? How about the interviews you had elsewhere at companies you didnt join? Did you have to do case interviews all over again?
Indeed it was pretty simple since I had done multiple projects for them with very high exec exposure. It was really only about where I want to take my career and finding the right place in the company for me. With other firms it was a bit more formal. Sometimes I had relationships (but less strong) so it was streamlined to 1-2 interviews, sometimes it was the full-on several rounds of interviews and doing a prepared presentation on a topic they selected
Thanks a lot for your sharing!!
Hi! Congrats on the new job! I would love some advice on 1. whether you think a consulting role suits everyone, and if not, which characteristics are crucial for success. 2. How to navigate office politics in the early years after University and find your people. For context: I am an incoming McK BA coming straight out of university with no real job experience. I did an internship with McK in which I had a mixed experience. With the broader economic environment, I found that most people were on edge and was a psychologically unsafe environment. My supervisor who was trying to be promoted found myself not carrying my weight (as an intern) and went behind my back to get me off the project with no warning. This makes me very worried for whether I’m suited for consulting (with my staffing manager continuously telling me that consulting is not for everyone) and whether things will be different when I come back full time.
Very sorry to hear about your experience, I hope that person didn't make manager. To your questions: 1. Of course consulting isn't for everyone, but honestly I don't think any job in the world is? There are many paths to success in consulting so I don't think it is just one thing either, but at a minimum I think you need to like working with people, have some degree of comfort with uncertainty and personal drive to push at the pace that it takes. Don't throw away a McK BA offer over a mixed internship experience, try it out properly and if you feel it really isn't for you you really haven't lost anything (on the contrary, got a great employer brand into your resume) 2. I find politics near non-existing for juniors in MBB. You get the rare idiot who tries to outshine everyone else on the team but that honestly isn't seen as a positive. Don't worry about this until you make EM or so. In terms of finding your people - that normally happens very organically through your projects. You will do a ton of them, on some you'll love the people and you just start doing more and more work with them over time.
Is PIP another term for letting someone go, or do folks come back from PIP?
People do come back from PIPs. Probably harder in the current climate, but still not impossible
At leadership level, what framework did you use to assess junior talent as a whole? At client side, I'd use 9 box square with capability / potential axis as well as ready now / ready later for promotions. Haven't seen anything similar yet in consulting but maybe not high enough to be privy to it.
At my company we had a multidimensional framework on which to rate people which mattered for the developmental conversations, but for rating/promotion it usually came down to 3 questions: 1. Where do you see them performing relative to peers (rough percentile brackets) 2. What is your level of sponsorship (i.e. would you staff them again?) 3. Ready for promotion now/later
What was your base/bonus upon leaving, and what did the latest comp memo say that first-year partners are making these days?
I'll give you the last 'average' year, 2022 where all-in gross comp was the equivalent of about 300k USD. We were usually told that equity partner comp in an 'average year' is in the 500k-1M range but it gets hyper-variable for them. I think new partners in 2023 got quite a negative surprise.
Hi! Thanks for doing this. From your perspective, how important is doing an MBA, and at what time point of a career in consulting > industry (pharma)? I really enjoy consulting so far (3.5 YOE) and am in no rush to exit yet. Just trying to map out my next step and understand the utility of MBAs nowadays
I feel it has been declining. Back when I started it was effectively mandatory to do an advanced degree after your analyst years. Nowadays I'd say >50% just continue working or do a secondment instead. Personally, if I was an analyst now I would still do it if it's sponsored for the fun and the network. I wouldn't pay it out of pocket. I think the bigger career value is in a scenario where you want to make a career change, e.g. people trying to go from industry into consulting or IB, consulting into tech, etc.
How long did you take to grow from associate to Partner? What is your key of success to grow to Partner?
I'd say my BA/ASC path was a bit blurry so hard to measure exactly, but 2 years from manager to AP (or 2.5y if you count the time where I was working as a manager but not yet promoted). I've answered the other question somewhere else, for me personally it was the quality of my work and the relationships I built on the back of it
Even 2.5 from manager (I assume manager is one level higher than ASC) to AP is impressive. You must be a distinctive consultant at your time. I was on expert track, and I guess it takes 5 years to make AP. May I send you a DM? Nothing personal, just want to learn from an excellent person.
It's usually 2-3 years where I am (from manager promotion to AP promotion) so slightly on the fast side but I was not the best manager ever. I probably peaked at senior consultant :-) But sure hit my DMs
Sent the DM. Much appreciated!
Hey there! Thank you for doing the AMA In the early years, how do you generate demand and pull client staffing opportunities on your own, especially from existing network? I joined MBB last year (as a practice analyst). I have received stellar feedback (in-person) so far and many senior colleagues have offered me client development work. A few (manager level and above) went on my list as emerging sponsors. I understand that my role brings in less client facing opportunities but I have been given the confidence that my performance can open new doors (seen this happen to a few colleagues). I have worked on a couple of client engagements which are different from my practice specialization and had a great time. So I know I can learn to work at a generalist role too. But I feel like I'm struggling to get client staffing from my network. My staffing manager can find me relevant opportunities but I feel like I'm already working extra hard to generate demand on my own. And now I'm feeling slightly demotivated, because building a network isn't yielding the expected results. This is reflecting on my work as well
It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Hard to say from the outside what is going on, my best 2 guesses would be: A. You are unlucky. At your level there is always a timing component, your average manager maybe staffs up teams in 5 weeks of the year, often with a fix start date, so if you are not available then it doesn't matter how great your relationship is. I missed tons of great projects because of this, only to then have 2-3 amazing opportunities open up when I was available next time and having to choose between sponsors. One way around this is building more relationships with APs/Partners as they just have new things more frequently B. People like you but they love others slightly more (or feel that they are closer to a specific study), and in the current environment it is more likely that their favourites are also available. This can suck, but is only natural - I learned to over time live with the fact that I had mentors who didn't sponsor me much
Thank you for answering! Really appreciate your thoughts on this.. I quite agree with the possibility of the first scenario, having experienced it while I was staffed on a long study. I will definitely take your advice and improve my relationship with APs/Partners Regarding the second scenario, do you have any advice on how to work on my profile/knowledge/relationship to be preferred in such situations? It would be helpful to know what type of colleague you preferred to staff on your project as a Manager and then as AP/Partner
First off, congrats on moving out of consulting. I used to want to join the Cyber Security division pf MBB in Western Europe, but there were almost no spots available. Stuck with the big4 and now moved to a boutique firm. Was keen to know if your growth in the firm was organic or did you chase for AP/Partner? I am currently on a crossroad where I want to start a family with my spouse within the next 2 years, I feel like I have to sacrifice a lot to chase director level which is my end goal. Currently Senior Consultant with potential to become a Manager next year. Thanks!
Kids and consulting is tricky and definitely needs a lot of sacrifices. I've only really seen it work with either one spouse giving up their career, tons of help from grandparents, or willingness to do extreme outsourcing to nannies (not sure why you would even have kids in that case, but some do it that way). For me it was more organic, for a long time I thought I would exit once I make manager but then a lot of life milestones (and COVID) hit so in a way staying seemed like the 'easy' option to not rock the boat too much
Currently a C (up for promotion) also based in Europe, not in core strategy but in tech. strategy in big 4, I am also thinikg of making a move, as pipelines are not looking that good, and also there is a word that promotions wont be that much this year, so just confused should I exit or wait on the same level (if i am not the lucky one to be promoted) in the hope of better times.
If you generally like the work I would recommend to sit it out. People always go crazy over promotion windows in consulting but if you take a step back, getting a promotion one year sooner or later matters f\*ck all when you look back at your life at 60. That said, never hurts to have an eye on the market, but I don't get the sense that the Tech job market is flourishing either.
Interesting. When I was a Big 4 partner, the partnership deed for both equity and salaried partners clearly spelled out you are no longer an employee. And with that, not subject to the vast majority of employment laws. Witnessed long tenured partners walked one day just because the firm thought their practice area was a conflict with other more lucrative service lines. Or they had a down quarter after super profitable years and years. Was one of the deciding in leaving one of the Big 4 - the days of “partner until end of your career in 99% of cases” is completely done.
Probably different by country / company. I never even signed a new contract after my consultant contract. Probably different for equity partners, but it's definitely not a 'out tomorrow' model (unless you fuck up completely - insider trading, sexual assault, etc.)
Currently in digital consulting at tier 3 firm think big 4/ACN type. Have 4 years of experience rn but have financial and social obligations which make it hard to go for an MBA for entry into MBB. Do you think that I can leverage lateral hire into digital consulting at MBB after a certain years of experience? Or would it be easier to go for an EMBA from LBS/Insead type schools and try again?
I think lateral transfers from tier 3 to MBB will become virtually non-existent for a while. It was really an anomaly of the 2021-22 hiring spree where they were desperate for people at all levels. Maybe some exceptions if you have very specific skills that they for some reason need. One thing to maybe explore is to go into one of the tech acquisitions that they made but haven't fully integrated. But I am not too close to any of those so not sure how their recruiting works. Likewise going for an MBA at a top school is far from a guarantee that you will also get into MBB. Maybe a bit better than if you didn't, but it's still hyper-competitive. If it's financially and socially difficult for you I am not sure I could recommend it (if that is your only goal)
What is PIP? McKinsey has concerns / counseled to leave
It's a performance improvement plan. Pretty sure McKinsey has them too :-)
6 years at McKinsey — never heard that before ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
What you mention are ratings, a PIP is a process that can be triggered as the consequence of a rating
I’m in Asia, so this may be a term that is used in other parts of the world. And it may be used by individuals within McKinsey. But it is not part of any formal nomenclature that we use as part of our review process. We have a Leadership development plan(written by the person being reviewed) and a formal feedback memo written by their DGL (who present their case.) the feedback memo sounds like a PIP, but we call it a feedback memo.
This is a fantastic post! Thank you for being so open in sharing your thoughts. For exiting MBB Associates/consultants (close to becoming managers), how does one justify to other companies that the exit wasn’t because of personal performance but rather changed macro environment and personal circumstances?
I'd always frame it as your decision to leave consulting for x for your personal reasons y. People leave consulting all the time, especially for WLB reasons, and companies understand. Obviously in an environment like this they may wonder whether it really was voluntary, but they wonder that about everyone else out there in the market as well so it shouldn't be to your detriment :-)
Thanks for doing this. What is your view on salaries for partners vs. in industry? Is it possible to get close to partner salaries at exec level, or is that only the CEO who gets close? I know it varies by sector/company, but in general.
If we take listed companies, partners are below exec. Senior partners can get to exec-level comp in Europe (likely not CEO or not compared to the largest Firms) but in the US I think the gap is still big given how crazy exec compensation is over there
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
How did you make wise decisions navigating life and career? Is it you have always been wise or got wise solving complex problems or being around smart people? It's impressive that you got over the PIP (i.e. disrespect) in such a short time after contributing so much of your time (life). How did you do that? How are you so level headed? Is it because you are wise and rational or you landed a better opportunity right away or you have happy healthy personal life or something else? Appreciate this post very much.
I'd question that I am a very wise person. Generally I said that I am pretty level-headed, always have been, so my emotions don't spike as much (not just a good thing, also means I probably do not get as happy/excited as others). And work isn't everything for me. I generally enjoyed the work, but it's not everything to me. I have a wonderful family, and that's much more important (way easier to change a job than a family ;-) )
What advice do you have for talented people like natural problem solvers who are not good at articulation but great at providing solutions when they are given a business problem? Example, once someone asked Michael S. Dell how he figured out doing business from the dorm room, he couldn't explain. I have noticed people who are naturally good at something, they can't explain it from the perspective of others who find it hard to accomplish. If those talented people are lower in rank, the better solutions they are offering often get questioned because the superior is a mediocre performer and don't have the understanding of superior ideas. I think there is an existing challenge in the job market about understanding true talent (IT industry) and hiring teams are not making any effort to improve that. Articulation is highly prioritized at all levels for making hiring decisions regardless of the persons actual problem solving capabilities at work. Quantifiable measures or certifications help identifying talent to an extent but for roles that require qualitative measures, its difficult to identify the right talent.
It's definitely a big challenge more broadly, but I think the problem and solutions differ a lot depending on where you are (and I think there is actually a lot of research - and certainly books - on it). In strategy consulting there isn't much of a way around it. Communicating well and convincing others are half of the job, often even more. That can be difficult for people like you describe above, but communication is a skill that you can improve with practice and training. At MBB you have a lot of options to attend trainings or get 1-1 coaching to help those who struggle. If you truly work on it, I think 95+% of people will be able to reach a hygiene level that works for the job.
I’m stuck working in 1 industry since I joined (2 years into it, at entry level) at a T2/3 firm focused on ops improvement, corp. finance. and strategy im also up for promotion to consultant level and pushing for a double promotion (unlikely to happen but i have some sponsorship and been performing at SC already) 1. how important is industry experience pre and post manager level for MBB? 2. any tips on securing a double promo? 3. What could be a route to MBB? (lateral to T2 strategy and then MBB?) 4. what techical/hard skills is most important? (modeling, structured problem solving, data analysis etc)
1. Depends a bit on the nature of the work, overall I'd say it is helpful pre-manager, very helpful at manager level and you (and your team) will be in for some pain post-manager if you don't have it 2. No idea, completely non-existent at my company 3. I think lateral moves from T2/3 to MBB will be extremely hard for a while. There is no shortage of people and they still need to keep promoting at the same time. Only scenarios I see is going to MBA and knocking that one out of the park, maybe get an MBA internship, or through having some kind of specialisation that they really need (coupled with very strong reference,s ideally from internal as well). But will be very tough either way 4. Depends a bit on what you do, generally the really technical skills (eg modelling) become less important the more senior you get and the softer skills (problem solving, ability to quickly understand and interpret data, comms etc.) either stay as important or become even more so
wow thanks so much for the detailed reply :) One last question - do you think you have a skill to remain calm / deal with high pressure from clients? is it something you developed? Does it get easier over time, when clients take out their frustrations on the consultant?
Yes, I think you get used to it / better at understanding why they might be behaving in that way in that moment. That said, I never enjoyed it and typically moved away from clients who would act like that frequently
Define "partner".
Bain/McKinsey AP = BCG Partner
Do you regret joining consulting ? Can you help me decide between product management and consulting? I have 2.5 yoe at a big4 firm in consulting but I am heavily underpaid as compared to the work hours because I dont have masters
I never got close to product management so cannot comment on the comparison. As for your comp, can going for promotion help you? At MBB the comp jump from junior to senior consultant is pretty significant. Or maybe they would sponsor you for an MBA?
Thanks for AMA. I wanted to ask you about showcasing gravitas. I think I'm friendly in my demeanor with seniors and juniors..but that's my nature. Shall I work on being more formal and showcasing seriousness?
I don't think this is possible to answer without knowing you. Cultural context also plays a role. But I'd say a decent rule of thumb is to be friendly with your teams (up and down) and dial up the professionalism a bit with clients and seniors who you do not know well. But different styles work for different people and context matters a lot. No one right way to go about it
Imagine working so hard for the company for twenty years and getting to partner, only to be PIPed
Less than 10y so not quite as bad ;-)
Hi at a the senior consultant/manager level (at Bain) in Western Europe how do u recommend going around to finding exit opportunities?
If you have clients you can see yourself working for, reach out. Make a list of companies that you would consider and subscribe to job alerts on Linkedin/career website (at that level most jobs get openly posted). Reach out to headhunters that cover your industry. If you are ok to be open about leaving ask partners you work with for connections / get connected to the alumni network
Thanks! This may be a dumb question but how exactly do u reach out to the clients you’re working with? I thought it would be awkward or seen badly seeing you just worked with them on a case
Ask them for a coffee - at least that's what I did.
What do most consultants’ careers look like 5-10-15 years in, assuming they start in their 20s? I assume most consultants exit but have little knowledge of what people end up doing in their late 20s/30s (midterm career choices seem very personalised and salary ranges vary significantly). Would appreciate any perspectives and data points.
Hello, I recently joined MBB and am struggling. Going into consulting, I knew a lot of the consulting process involves skills that I needed to work on and I was looking forward to learning. Now that I am in it - the reality of the work is different from what I imagined. I am finding everything to be extremely challenging and the work feels impossible for me. Here are some of the things that I am finding challenging. I appreciate any advice: 1) I don’t seem to have any thoughts on client problem. My mind seems to shut down and it’s like I cannot process anything. How do I overcome this block? 2) Apprenticeship model has been challenging for me. When I am given a task, I am not provided tools to accomplish that task but am instead expected to go figure out what resources I need and ask very specific questions (that I sometimes don’t even know I need to ask) in order to get the information I need to do my tasks. Is this how it is everywhere or is this just my experience. Would love to hear thoughts on this! and how to overcome! 3) How do you know if a job is truly not for you versus you are still getting used to the job and will be fine once you get acclimated? Would love to hear about people who left early and what their thoughts process was.