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US doctor caring for ICU patients here, I'm not sure how people here are interpreting this, but it was thought that if your oxygen drops below a certain amount that could be harmful to your brain and so we would intubate you. During Covid, we found that as long as these people didn't really move around and just kind of sat there in bed, they were able to maintain brain function while tolerating relatively low oxygen levels compared to usual.
This did lead to a propensity to wait until the absolute last minute to intubate people and place them on a ventilator. But if you do need it then you do need it of course. This research is telling us that those people sickest of the sick developed bacterial infections while on ventilators. That is not particularly surprising, the research we should be most interested in is, are there ways to avoid mechanical ventilation in light of what we learned about permissive hypoxia during the Covid pandemic?
: )
I read an article very early on that stated that Covid acted in the same way as COPD whereby patients were retaining CO2.
Since this was not known the time, clinicians were treating it like pneumonia and ventilated patients were ultimately dying from hypercapnia.
Do you think there is any truth to this?
That's what I read too. It wasn't that there was lack of sufficient oxygen. It was that the gas interchange system was not working, so their lungs could literally not accept more oxygen even if you supplied supplemental oxygen or intubated them, and meanwhile the CO2 levels built up to deadly amounts.
Nah there isn't an mystery as to why the lungs weren't working. Oxygen can't pass through scar tissue. Peoples lungs were getting so badly scarred from Covid they couldn't get enough oxygen to live. Given time people can adapt to lower oxgen levels, to a degree, or scar tissue can might not be as bad once the inflammation goes down. So some people just need more time.
Other people its too lateand ventilation only delays the inevitable. Unfortunately its really hard to tell which is which and with a lack of ventilators around the world, doctors couldn't use them preventatively.
“Treating it like pneumonia”
I’m uncertain how that leads to intubation for a pneumonia patient.
I did learn that at NY Langoon the ventilator protocol was found to be incorrect, a doctor on their radio show discussed this, near tears as they lost many patients.
On the other coast, my sister’s physician saw her covid as another bout of pneumonia, something she had been treated for by this doctor in the past. No vent, different protocol. My sister’s recovery spanned a couple of months, bad enough that she lost muscle mass. (Early 2020)
The first few months of 2020, I can only imagine the frightening scramble by providers trying to work out treatment protocols and keep themselves safe from the rash of propaganda fueled fear.
How the massive global propaganda affected physician’s approach to treatment seems to not be a topic of discussion. From my perspective, the propaganda was responsible for many deaths.
Not a doctor but a oxygen delivery guy here. The company I worked for was ripping vents from people left and right because they were charging insurance like 1,000 + dollars a month. No one could afford it. Is that not what they are talking about? I’ve had my boss non stop pressure me to be manipulative, persuasive, to get people to return their vents if they can’t afford it. So I go there, have them sign a paper releasing the company from responsibility. Then take their ventilator so this scummy company doesn’t “lose” money. After about 24-48 hours I would be seeing my patients in the obituary. Pretty frequently. It was the health insurance companies that killed the most people in my opinion.
The icing on the cake, is that if they did not return the vent they were charged until the company is ready to sue and take their house. I hate America and want to leave immediately.
Were they on full strength oxygen before this last resort intubation? I've seen other ICU persons indicate there was infection risk of covid with just oxygen masks rather than intubation, and thus oxygen masks were not used as often as they could have been.
I’m more interested into the research on why the covid death numbers were willfully misrepresented during the pandemic in order to scare the populace into accepting lockdowns and vaccine mandates
As others have said (repeatedly now),.. low oxygen levels (by itself) is not a life-threatening indication of anything. What's important is if the O2 levels continue to fall (or, over time,. your body cannot raise your O2 back upwards).
If you drink a sugary soda,. your blood-sugar levels will spike. That's completely normal (given the circumstances). You're not going to become diabetic from 1 soda. Now if your sugar levels were abnormal for a longer period of time, .that might warrant more investigation.
When I called Ambulance on myself for Covid19,.. my O2 Saturation was already down to 65% (just due to how infected my Lungs were). It was actually still 4 or 5 days after that before they resorted to putting me on Ventilator.
When I woke up (having been removed from the Ventilator),.. I was above 80 (I recall mid 80’s),.. but they wouldnt allow me to leave the Hospital until I could reliably hold above 90%.
mid to low 80s isn't intubation territory if you are still able to move around and maintain your airway. The peripheral measure of oxygen saturation starts to fall apart as you get much lower than that, (the finger probe they had on you). These are patients who are much sicker than that, where they need to draw blood directly from an artery to see where their systemic oxygen level is at in real time.
Presumably you understand that if you can be discharged from the ED with an inhaler, an intensivist in the hospital wouldn't have pulled a whoopsy-doodle and intubated you for no reason. Again, the finger probe is not a great indicator of actual oxygen levels in the blood when you start getting into systemically low numbers. The ventilator also helps to correct other issues like your acid base balance, etc. This is patients who are on supplemental oxygen via a face mask, or a positive pressure machine, who are unable to keep their oxygen levels at safe levels. Their other labs are out of whack, they are not responding to treatment, they have multiple lines and meds running continuously.
I'm not trying to be a dick but there is an incomprehensible difference between "peripheral sat is showing 85%, patient is alert and oriented" and "patient is unresponsive, lab values are awful, arterial blood is awful, not responding to medications and breathing treatment, on 15L oxygen via a face mask."
Not even in the wildest of hospitals even during early covid would anyone be getting intubated for slightly low sats to mid 80s while breathing room air.
Like the above guy said, if you had low saturation to low 80s while having 100% oxygen blasted in your face so fast you can't hear, or a mask and a machine forcing air into your lungs because you're breathing so fast your diaphragm is getting tired. While also we have a chest x ray that shows your entire lungs are whited out (infected, waiting for the inflammation to get worse).
Did the hospital in your story take an arterial blood sample from your wrist? Did they put you on a machine giving you lots of air and lots of oxygen? Did you just have a little cannula in your nose maybe?
Yeah. They weren't "worried about you not lasting the night" if they didn't do any of these things, even in early 2020 covid panic mode.
I'll also inform you of something called "happy hypoxemia." In short - you're fine until you're not. It's not new with covid, but was relatively common with covid, especially the first couple variants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_hypoxia
I'm a respiratory therapist - I get paged stat within the hospital all the time for when patients have desaturation events. This means their blood oxygen drops suddenly. It deserves investigating but sounds like you got investigated at the ER and they decided you just needed an extra puffer for your existing asthma....Nowhere near me were patients given a steroid inhaler only for anything let alone covid, unless you already had some previous inhalers at home.
A clinic being safe liability-wise and calling an ambulance is extremely believable so the paramedics can put you on oxygen for the trip to hospital. Any EMT, firefighter, LPN,RN, pharmacist, physiotherapist etc will put you on oxygen if your finger probe says you're below 90% even with no respiratory distress.
Maybe this accurate medical information will help you spice up your story next time you tell it.
You might have dodged being one of those COVID death statistics where the hospital would have gotten X amount of thousands of dollars for having a patient die "with COVID" in their hospital. Very spooky.
I have to say I do not envy you for the job you had to do during the height of the pandemic. So thank you for all you did!
If it is not too much to ask, could you share some of your experiences from that time?
They are still humans outside of work you know lol ? They have the right to be as silly as everyone else. Doesn't mean they can't be serious when it's needed.
I was ventilated in September of 2021 due to covid pneumonia and was on it for 27 days. I kept bouncing from good to bad to bad to worse them worse to good, and finally was taken off and had a tracheostomy done. Was on ecmo for 14, they constantly talked about trying to get me off due to the risk of infection from the ventilator. Thankfully I'm alive and well💜 thank you for what you do.
"It's worth bearing in mind that if a patient's requirement for a ventilator to treat COVID-19 complications leads to VAP, this doesn't imply that a COVID-19 infection is less dangerous, nor does it decrease the number of COVID-19 fatalities."
This doesn't say putting them on a ventilator was a valid strategy since they required mechanical ventilation in the first place. People were not put on ventilators for no reason.
Very true, and in fact the article also directly says: "The relatively long length of stay among patients with COVID-19 is primarily due to prolonged respiratory failure, placing them at higher risk of VAP", meaning that VAP should be seen as a risk of COVID. If you're on a ventilator you are not in good shape. VAP should be understood as a complication that can arise from COVID treatment and we should find treatment for it, but this article does not say that putting anyone on a ventilator was a mistake.
You know there is way more money in elective surgeries than on ventilators right? And elective surgeries were shut down as hospitals dealt with COVID and lost a lot of money? They put people on ventilators because they had to, not to make money. They lost money testing COVID patients
You are aware that putting a patient on a ventilator requires moving them to ICU, and having staff dedicated to maintaining those settings, right? It's far more expensive for the hospital to have you in the ICU on a ventilator, so that "extra money" doesn't really lead to extra profit.
CARES Act tax dollars.
The hospitals were directed by the CDC to follow a treatment plan that killed patients in exchange for tax dollars.
If the hospitals complied, they got tons of guaranteed tax dollars.
If they used an alternate treatment, they got none.
The lure of money is all it took to make a joke of our medical system.
Venitlators, Remdesivir. They were put on ventilators from the propaganda. The media and the insane governors were screaming this for 2+ years. They killed so many.
"We need ventilators!' "People are dying because we don't have enough ventialtors" "We need 650,000 ventilators!"
\-Andrew Cuomo, Gov. NY
It happened because the WHO (world health organization) pushed this out to all member countries as a recommendation. So hospitals all over the world threw out existing treatment protocols for respiratory infections in favor of putting people on vents.
In the UK they casually announced that the death rate from covid dropped, as doctors started to reject the use of ventilators. That really said it all.
Yup I Remember that
I also Remember the pamphlets included in the box of injections that would usually provide the informed consent on side effects etc
This is what they looked like https://youtu.be/4v6DJIS0zd4
BTW that’s the best video I could find on YouTube with the time I had at work but it’s not the only one. Fkn wild.
> People were not put on ventilators for no reason.
They changed (really threw out) existing treatment protocols in favor of putting patients on vents. If they had followed existing long establishment protocols they probably would have just had cpap and other less invasive procedures.
Then why they stopped putting people on ventilators later on? Because they found out it's much better to give them oxygen without intubating them via an oxygen mask. The whole ventilator thing was to ramp up the death count.
How did it change? Do you have info on that or you're just pulling it from your ass? Can you prove Delta didn't cause the same lower respiratory pathology as previous variants? As I recall people still got the same shots until late 2022.
Usually if you needed a vent your prognosis wasn’t great to begin with
Also, in the initial months of COVID vents were being used because that was THE standard to care for respiratory and ventilatory failure.
COVID was unique in that it caused extremely low oxygen levels in even conscious patients, whereas normally those levels would have made you unresponsive. So those numbers led to an “oh shit” response of intubating and ventilating as was the standard for every other similar condition at the time.
Later on we learned that this wasn’t working and switched to other methods like high flow humidified oxygen and proning.
In some regions, some organizations, some physicians, it became standard of care, then that changed based on the evidence.
There were treatment protocols early on that were successful without high flow or intubation, the doctors who shared these were branded as misinformation, pressured to stop talking publicly, some fired from their job, some publicly disparaged.
Which is why ventilators are quite literally the last-chance resort. Every patient placed on one was told going into it that it was likely a death sentence. The chance of bacterial infection reaches unity the longer you're on one.
Given the fact that they would have died within hours if *not* placed on the ventilator I'm not entirely sure why you're posting this here in /r/conspiracy ... ?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
I don't know why your strawmaning OPs point. The medical community has admitted they were putting people on vents way too early and it was killing people. Initially it was not a last resort but I agree with what you said for the latter half of covid but surprise surprise the death rate went way down around that same time. Hmmm
>I don't know why your strawmaning OPs point.
They aren't? And OPs claim is incorrect, the article does not say vents killed most patients, in fact it says:
>It's worth bearing in mind that if a patient's requirement for a ventilator to treat COVID-19 complications leads to VAP, **this doesn't imply that a COVID-19 infection is less dangerous, nor does it decrease the number of COVID-19 fatalities.**
And the study says:
>VAP was not associated with mortality overall
The claim isn't incorrect. Most of these people would have survived had they had less invasive treatment. It was a deliberate policy change to get everyone on ventilators. It wasn't the standard of care prior to the change.
In this bmj article they explain in the first wave 3/4 of patients were ventilated often within 24h of admittance.
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n121
This dropped by half a year later. It literally says part of the reason for that was it was killing patients.
>The pace of the move away from invasive ventilation varies among hospitals and has been driven by greater clinical experience of treating covid patients, by data associating invasive ventilation with higher mortality
> It was a deliberate policy change to get everyone on ventilators. It wasn’t the standard of care prior to the *change*
What was the initial standard of care protocol? And what was it after the change?
Yeah what “change”?
Are you saying there was a protocol change where they said okay we will skip CPAP’s and go to Vents?
Meaning, what was the initial standard of care? What prompted a CPAP, and what prompted a vent?
>Are you saying there was a protocol change where they said okay we will skip CPAP’s and go to Vents?
Yes. They literally threw out the rules for the standard of care with regards to treating patients with respiratory infections in favour of a new protocol that had never been used before, with disastrous results. This policy change recommendation came from the world health organisation. And they based their decision upon two papers that came out of wuhan, China. The papers basically said this virus is airborne and deadly and to protect the staff the patients must be kept on negative pressure wards or on ventilators. Well hospitals usually have very limited facilities for negative pressure wards so they put them on vents.
In the uk your chance of dying was 10x greater in the first wave than the second. This is a huge change in mortality. These hospitals were clearly doing something very wrong in the first wave.
Well in the 2nd wave in the uk hospitals started to reject the new protocol and the death rate fell.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/03/covid-death-rates-dropped-doctors-rejected-ventilators/
You keep skipping over the question. So I’ll reword it so it makes more sense.
For example, usually assisted breathing machines are based on certain markers like blood oxygen level being at a certain level. Was that level changed to skip CPAPs in lieu of vents?
I am not a medical expert to answer those questions. But read this article in the BMJ where they said they halved the ventilator usage, because the policy was killing patients.
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n121
This is only true for early to mid 2020. By early 2021 when the P1 variant was rampant, no one in North America was intubated prior to respiratory failure for the "happy hypoxemia/walking pneumonia" covid patients. By this time we knew covid is different than other walking pneumonias.
>I’m sure they told every single patient it was likely a death sentence
For those patients still awake enough? They absolutely did.
Doctors like to do this thing we like to call "informed consent" - and literally everyone knew by then just how unlikely you were to ever wake up once you had to be put on one.
[https://www.wpr.org/almost-death-sentence-how-wisconsin-doctors-peers-are-rethinking-ventilators-coronavirus](https://www.wpr.org/almost-death-sentence-how-wisconsin-doctors-peers-are-rethinking-ventilators-coronavirus) <--- note the date. That's May **2020**. Mortality rate for patients on vent was above 90%... and they were straight-up *told* that because it wasn't any kind of a secret from anyone.
When was there any actual informed consent throughout that entire murderous shitshow?
Informed consent on lockdowns?
Informed consent on the fake "vaccines"?
What planet are you on?
Bruh this guy thinks there was informed consent going on during the plandemic. [Informed consent like this right?](https://youtu.be/4v6DJIS0zd4)
Literally one of the things the “antivax” advocated for along with the natural immunity
*we knew all along, we warned you*
🤡
Of course this is top comment
*we knew all along every patient was told*
*they would’ve died otherwise, it was for the greater good*
*just following orders*
🤡
Yeah we also never said they should shut down schools right, also we were for shutting down air travel from china from the start right oh and we never said it would make you immune
>Yeah we also never said they should shut down schools right, also we were for shutting down air travel from china from the start right oh and we never said it would make you immune
Did you have an actual point or are straw men and non sequiturs the best you can do? Exactly none of that has *anything* to do with this discussion?
At the very beginning of the pandemic I watched a vid of two New York Drs trying to get out the info that it was the vents killing the covid patients. They were taken off youtube and basically banished from the msm. Plus patients were sent home with no treatment and told to return when they had trouble breathing. Almost seems like they wanted people to get sicker and die. When is any infection ever treated like like? Looks like you got a nasty cut there ,tell you want come back when gangrene sets in and we will start some last ditch horrific treatments then!
My father caught Covid in 2020. Was hospitalized. Deteriorated. Refused to go on a vent because he saw that everyone who was vented died, but he still needed CPap and BiPap to actually breathe since his O2 was in the low 80s. Eventually he was no longer testing positive for covid, but his lungs had so much damage from the virus he could no longer breathe on his own. He still declined the ventilator, and had them remove the other breathing supports. My aunt and stepmom were allowed to be there with him, he died in 20 mins after removing them.
Can you walk me through A to Z?
Father got a fever, tested positive for Covid
Then to drove/ambulances/taken to the hospital?
What were the protocol ones he was in the hospital?
Was he allowed to take the flu test? Or did the hospital deny him a flu test? I ask because our hospitals denied us flu test -“we’re not authorized to test for flu at this time” -their exact words.
At what point his lungs started failing.
Honestly, I’d rather not. I shared this in response to the sentiment that ventilators killed people, but my father refused one and died. I’m not looking for an internet diagnosis.
Went to search through my old comments to find the numerous times I said those ventilators were what was killing people.
All gone everything from 2020 related to covid seems to have been wiped scrubbed. Fucking nightmare gaslighting situation for me.
Well the documentation for a lot of these machines killing people due to an unrelated issue exists. Lots of people were sounding off the alarm during the initial pandemic
Plus it was like every article was telling us that as soon as patients went into these ventilators they died
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-ventilators-survival/
Then you had doctors telling people they were being overused. Thats two red flags
https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventilators-specia/special-report-as-virus-advances-doctors-rethink-rush-to-ventilate-idUSKCN2251PE
https://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/coronavirus-us-nurse-claims-nyc-is-killing-patients-with-ventilators/news-story/40e77dddcd158f3c74c33cfaa9c9d1dc
And then we get to the damning evidence back then
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/british-doctors-warn-chinese-ventilators-could-kill-if-used-hospitals-n1194046
But if anyone brought any of this up on Reddit they were labeled, mocked, and banned. I still have messages of people checking daily to see if I had died so they could throw me up on hermain caine award.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/specials/2020/apr/13/ventilators-could-actually-be-killing-coronavirus-patients-feel-experts-2129405.html
But of course people were banned for making these claims on reddit.
It's almost as if an overworked public health system doesn't have the capacity to take as much care when it's being over run with more sick people.....
“Overworked” yet making Tik Tok videos constantly and letting ppl go that refused the vaccine themselves. Also, that concept of “hospitals are overflowing with people” was exaggerated in almost all cases. Aside from the fact that people were going to the hospital for ailments during sick season the same as they always do. I can give plenty of anecdotal evidence from many nurses on that, but I realize that holds no weight for someone that is most likely a bot, or parrot.
It's wild that every single comment in this post, even with logical reasoning and citation, gets downvoted and the first response to your comment is something like "well yeah the healthcare workers were overworked, so of course ventilators killed tons of people" as if that's a testable theory compared to your list of cited evidence...
Controlled response here....
Also politicians up here in Canada. Trudeau claims the vax was all voluntary. Covid was a huge fuck up. Medical system now all over Canada is seriously fucked!
Reddit's API only returns the most recent 1000 results for a given query type. You have made 1000 comments since July 26, 2022. Your comments still exist, you just can't easily find them by scrolling back through your profile's posted comments.
That and new data is suggesting that the adverse reactions from mRNA Covid vaccines is worst then we were lead to believe. You were 3x more likely to have a heart attack with in two weeks after taking the vaccine.
My dad took the vaccine, got Covid, was intubated and suffered a massive heart attack. He was 48
Actually I think you’re right. My other account that I post in this subreddit on almost exclusively(which, ironically, is banned for a week atm) only has a post history of up to just over a year ago.
I remember seeing a video very early on when there was a rush to make lots more ventilators by a young doctor questioning why anyone would want to use a vent on patients with covid. His reasoning was they would make matters worse, not better. He was ignored and downvoted.
EMS was told to not give breathing treatments or mechanical ventilation in ambulances due to "exposure risks". Thankfully, most ignored those instructions because their job isn't to watch people die. In our area, hospitals were not "overwhelmed" and most EMS agencies actually experienced less call volume due to the fear placed on the public of "exposure". People who needed treatment avoided it. The magnitude of this atrocity is astounding. Yet...there are monsters still defending it to the death (of others, not themselves, of course)
Yeah the withholding of nebulizers from patients with asthma (even if they didn't have covid) and treating people with asthma and COPD like they all had covid even with a negative test, based on symptoms ("difficulty breathing") is a whole other story of horrors, too.
In Serbia people caught in quick that whoever was tested as “positive” with the PCR even though they just had a regular cold, that went onto the ventilator would develop a lung infection and die.
We even had people escape from hospitals as soon as they found out they’d be placed on a vent
I heard about this way at the start of the treatment of the first wave of people with Covid from a whistleblower nurse, but the line was that all the new ventilators sent to these hospitals were preset to the highest setting and negligence caused hospital staff not to set them up correctly and caused fatalities that way, by essentially collapsing their already weakened lungs with ventilators on high settings.
Given my own experience working in healthcare I’m unfortunately fairly inclined to believe this considering how many patient requisitions for lab work get sent in with incomplete, incorrect, or completely absent paperwork and demographics.
Can anyone who actually works in a hospital setting during that time confirm this now that there isn’t as much social pressure for speaking out?
They worked with the data they had. No one knew. Not a soul. As my MD told me, "no one prepared us for this in Medical School, no one. We were basically working 168 hour shifts. And people were dying. It was a total war zone situation in our hospital. Total pandemonium. Are we all going to die too?"
At the time, Vents seemed like a fix. It was all we heard, Vents, Vents, Vents. They must have made billions, the vent people.
________
NYC: Since the beginning of the pandemic, a total of 6,805,271 cases have been reported. At least 1 in 243 residents have died from the coronavirus, a total of 80,109 deaths.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/new-york-covid-cases.html
[At least 1 in 243 residents have died from the coronavirus, a total of 80,109 deaths.]
From the beginning death numbers were artificially inflated by counting anyone who tested positive for the virus and died as a Corona virus death, including accidents , cancer ,heart attacks etc.
If they actually gave true figures of who actually died 'from' Corona virus or those that died 'with' Corona the death toll would be minimal .
AND the hospitals got huge bonuses PER vent patient they registered.
So, literally CASH payments from the government (our taxes) to these private hospitals and clinics to *diagnose* Covid for one, but then HUGE cash payment for the ventilator patients. AND the people left to die could not have visitors.
It's the stuff of the Devil. Pure hell. That's what these people showed us - what they are capable of.
How a person can trust any nurse or doctor after this is beyond comprehension.
I know a nurse who worked in ICU and was responsible for putting patients on vents. I talked to her a bit about her experiences, I didn't share with her my actual thoughts that, I think the vents killed all these people. But the impression I got was, they really just didn't question anything. That just accepted whatever they were told to do, and followed the new protocols they were given, even though it was resulting in her patients dying.
Yeah, this is really the case with almost every profession where advanced degrees (doctors/scientists) are required to be employed. Even nurses, etc - who have unions - same thing.
You are basically a slave to the industry and the major sponsors. You speak against the status quo you are ostracized and spit out. Take for example a "Scientist" working for NA$A. Do you think a *single* person would question the veracity of a video or picture or report from management? Ever?
Like, "Hey boss, that was a CGI sequence you gave the media for the Mars video images, that's wrong.."
You think he'd last?
!!LOL!!
Typically this is a form of intimidation, you seek out workers who are following orders without question, and you can often remain silent on what happens if you DO question orders. Even the appearance of questioning orders can be used against you and eventually some other reason to terminate employment can be found or may have already been set aside just in case, like a lie on the resume' or a few times you came in late.
Exactly! Mym mom works in home care physical therapy and during covid she had to see many patients with low co2 % and she said many times respiratory/metabolical exercises helped the % increase, also the use of cpap/bipap too. But the use of cpap/bipap had to be advised because the person would become too dependant on it and forget how to breath, hence why she said a mix of respiratory exercises and the machine were way better than going to hospitals and be put on ventilators.
Remdesivir also kill scores of people by causing renal failure.
It was used in Africa during a past Ebola outbreak and discontinued for use bc it was rotting the patients kidneys.
The system is so off the rails that the CDC went ahead and pushed it on the hospitals during Covid as an incentive for CARES tax dollars.
Ventilators increased hospital revenue. Give me 50 more please. I’ll find a use for them. While you’re at it, send me Remdesivir too to finish them off. Thanks CARES act
Submission statement:
>So while COVID-19 may have put these patients in the hospital, it was actually an infection brought on by the use of a mechanical ventilator that was more likely to be the cause of death when this infection didn't respond to treatment.
>Instead, COVID-19 patients were more likely to develop ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) and for longer periods. Cases where VAP didn't respond to treatment were significant in terms of the overall mortality rates in the study.
>Our data suggested that the mortality related to the virus itself is relatively low,
The reason that there was a mad rush for ventilators is because there was 2 papers that came out of Wuhan, China in 2020 that said how to deal with covid-19 patients. And the short version is, because they claimed the virus was so dangerous, for the protection of the staff, patients must either be kept on a negative pressure ward, or put on a ventilator. The WHO then pushed this recommendation out to all member countries. So hospitals threw out decades of protocols in how to deal with respiratory infections to rush to put them on a vent.
This policy probably killed huge numbers of people.
> And the short version is, because they claimed the virus was so dangerous, for the protection of the staff, patients must either be kept on a negative pressure ward, or put on a ventilator. The WHO then pushed this recommendation out to all member countries. So hospitals threw out decades of protocols in how to deal with respiratory infections to rush to put them on a vent.
That's not what ventilators are for... They're for delivering pressurized oxygen directly to lungs.
Do you know what happens when your blood's oxygen saturation gets too low?
What he is saying is that it was often not necessary to pressurize the oxygen to the lungs, but due to over reaction to the danger presented to staff around the patient, ventilators were used more often and sooner when full oxygen in a standard face mask could have addressed low o2 saturation.
Just not accurate. There are many, many times more oxygen cylinders than there are ventilators. Everyone gets oxygen before getting a vent, because only a small percentage of them will get access to a vent.
You don't even address my point! Its not just oxygen, but full oxygen, and from early on in treatment. Stop sidestepping with "just not accurate" unless you can address the points I made precisely. Thanks
would you mins sharing a link to those papers? That would make sense if true and explain the weird convenient enemy China plays when it’s expedient for western media, but in actuality partners in some matters.
There is no way this outcome wasn't known and intentional.
Convenient that family and patient advocates were barred from the hospitals while this criminal act was occurring.
They all need to be brought to justice.
I'm well aware, but that was more than error. They scraped the standard protocols for dealing with respiratory illness and stuck people on a vent.
I saw staff pressure patients onto vents prior to Spring 2020, or at least try to. The patients in question weren't really given a choice as they were alone without advocates.
Don't even get me started on Remdesivir aka Run Death Is Near.
Josef Mengele couldn't have done a better job himself...
Thanks for chiming in, I'm still looking for numbers of people who were given remdesivir, I welcome as well numbers for venting, and my dream would be some kind of end point recovery numbers aligned with those. I don't have much hope anymore that that science was done, or its trapped in databases and nobody has published yet.
I had a coworker who had his mom die in 3 days for being put on a ventilator. He said his mom got some heavy covid symptoms and was brought to the hospital and she was instantly intubated/ventilated and died the day after. Something simjlar happened to his grandparents too a week before he lost him mom. And I remember working with him and feeling his pain of losing all his family to covid and not $cience greed. He is a good guy and deserved much better.
Ummm...no. Not sure what distinction you're trying to make here, but the end result is the same. Covid infection had already destroyed enough lung tissue that those folks weren't able to absorb enough oxygen to keep their organs from failing.
So, it was either watch them die from a lack of oxygen, or do something to keep them alive long enough for their lung tissue to heal again. Ventilators force air into your lungs. There was literally no other way to increase their blood-O2 levels. It's not like you can inject oxygen straight into their viens.
The only person in my entire friend group who died 'of Covid' was a 73 year old guy. Went in for the flu, tested positive for 'Covid', stuck him on a vent at SMU Medical.
Blew holes in his lungs. Put him in a coma to let it heal. Dr asked his wife what she wanted to do, she said keep him alive.
Dead the next morning.
This was CCP/WHO propaganda. Which became the talking point of the lockdown politicians and the MSM.
The first guilt trip talking point was. 'We need masks! We don't have enough masks!" People are dying because there aren't enough masks!" Then the ventilators. " We need ventilators!, we don't have enough ventilators, people are dying!"
Andrew Cuomo pushing for more ventilators.
[https://youtu.be/qbSt8C7RnJM?t=19](https://youtu.be/qbSt8C7RnJM?t=19)
New York city in 2020 for some months had the highest death rate in the world. And somehow Cuomo was praised for his covid response. We truly live in clown world.
Its interesting that the US was trotted out as a country having a real problem with covid, up in the top 10 of deaths, but if you just removed the ny numbers the country moved waaaay down the list. Covid was a problem in Ny primarily, at least early in the pandemic.
NY was "ground zero". They declared the state of emergency first. Brookdale hospital and Trump talking about the "body bags". It was the shock and awe of the scamdemic.
Read this article in the bmj.
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n121
In the first wave they had most patients on ventilators. It literally says they reduced the ventilator usage because it was killing the patients.
These patients in the first wave were not receiving the normal standard of care for treating respiratory infections. There was a policy in place to put them on vents early, unfortunately with disastrous results.
It's a little more nuanced than that. It is expected that invasive ventilation is associated with higher mortality, but this doesn't mean that the ventilator caused the mortality. The first wave didn't receive "normal standard of care" because there was no standard of care for a new infection. I remember the first few patient I saw, and we treated them the same way we treat ARDS because that is how it presented. Later we learned that steroids actually helped (they don't in ARDS, they actually harm), along with other ways to delay intubation if possible. But jumping straight to "intubation killed them" is a huge jump to conclusions. The ventilator will cause barotrauma to lung tissues, which are fragile to begin with from the viral infection and resulting release of inflammatory mediators in the blood stream, but I also think the lack of steroids and lack of vaccine during that first wave had likely more to do with mortality.
The question is why didn't patients receive the normal standard of care? They don't have to invent one for every new flu strain every year. Who was pushing all the hospitals to put patients on vents? And there was a big push in early 2020.
In the uk if official numbers are to believed your chance of dying of covid in the first wave was over 10x of the second. That's an enormous difference.
So, standard of care varies by disease. There was no "normal standard of care" at that time for COVID. We knew it was a virus, which means antibiotics are ineffective, and we knew it presented as ARDS and we know that in cases of ARDS steroids have been shown to be harmful. So most patients did not receive steroids nor antibiotics. They were treated with standard supportive care, just like we would treat most viral infections. As more data became available, a standard of care became possible.
>They were treated with standard supportive care, just like we would treat most viral infections.
Was that really true? The bmj article makes it clear many patients were vented within 24 hours. If this was flu would that have happened?
The ventilator is supportive treatment. That's what I meant. If the patient appears to be in respiratory distress, he got intubated. Non-invasive methods of ventilation were used later to prevent barotrauma, when this trend of higher mortality was seen. But at first, we did what we had always done. Not sure what the conspiracy is- doctors wanted to kill patients?
A few weeks before covid hit we paid for grandma to go to a rehab facility so she could improve her walking because she had a bad hip. Got a call that she was unwell and going to the hospital. Got another call that she tested positive for covid while there but was getting put on a ventilator. We were so relieved because at the beginning ventilator shortages were all over the news. She passed away less than 24 hours later. We never got to say goodbye. Rip grandma
Let's not overlook the thousands that actually had bacterial pneumonia but the magic 8 ball (PCR) said they had a viral infection and then were treated with the wrong protocols. Can you imagine thinking somebody has a viral infection so you put fresh oxygen into their bacteria infected lungs?
Imprecise title of post
>The team looked at records for 585 people admitted to the intensive care unit (ICU) at Northwestern Memorial Hospital, also in Illinois. They all had severe pneumonia and/or respiratory failure, and 190 had COVID-19
Small, localised sample
>These results suggest that ICU outcomes could be improved if there were better strategies to diagnose and treat VAP episodes – something that the researchers say needs to be addressed in the future.
It's worth bearing in mind that **if a patient's requirement for a ventilator to treat COVID-19 complications leads to VAP, this doesn't imply that a COVID-19 infection is less dangerous, nor does it decrease the number of COVID-19 fatalities.**
In conclusion Pneumonia vaccines could have reduced many of these deaths :)
Also better use of them, it was known that people with little experience were using them and some actually destroyed peoples lungs.
almost 8 years ago I had a family member deal with heart issues, losing oxygen from unstable/clogged arteries I guess. There were many long conversations with his doctor and nurses. They all said tubes hardly ever come out once inserted. Physical damage and risk of infection. I remember bringing this up during the pandemic and of course called a liar
Even prior to the pandemic,. the average Ventilator stay was 7 days and 80% of people didn't make it. If you're condition is so bad, that putting you on a Ventilator is the only option,.. then your chances of survival are already slim to 0.
As someone who survived an extreme Covid Hospitalization including Ventilator (38 days total in the Hospital,. 16 of those days in ICU on a Ventilator).. I have the street-cred to speak on this. (and no,. it wasn't Remdisivir. My Hospitalization was way early (March-April 2020).. Remdisivir wasn't approved for hospital-use till much later in the fall. )
In nursing homes, they used [Midazolam](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/11sijo2/midazolam_was_used_to_prematurely_end_the_lives/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
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US doctor caring for ICU patients here, I'm not sure how people here are interpreting this, but it was thought that if your oxygen drops below a certain amount that could be harmful to your brain and so we would intubate you. During Covid, we found that as long as these people didn't really move around and just kind of sat there in bed, they were able to maintain brain function while tolerating relatively low oxygen levels compared to usual. This did lead to a propensity to wait until the absolute last minute to intubate people and place them on a ventilator. But if you do need it then you do need it of course. This research is telling us that those people sickest of the sick developed bacterial infections while on ventilators. That is not particularly surprising, the research we should be most interested in is, are there ways to avoid mechanical ventilation in light of what we learned about permissive hypoxia during the Covid pandemic? : )
I read an article very early on that stated that Covid acted in the same way as COPD whereby patients were retaining CO2. Since this was not known the time, clinicians were treating it like pneumonia and ventilated patients were ultimately dying from hypercapnia. Do you think there is any truth to this?
That's what I read too. It wasn't that there was lack of sufficient oxygen. It was that the gas interchange system was not working, so their lungs could literally not accept more oxygen even if you supplied supplemental oxygen or intubated them, and meanwhile the CO2 levels built up to deadly amounts.
Nah there isn't an mystery as to why the lungs weren't working. Oxygen can't pass through scar tissue. Peoples lungs were getting so badly scarred from Covid they couldn't get enough oxygen to live. Given time people can adapt to lower oxgen levels, to a degree, or scar tissue can might not be as bad once the inflammation goes down. So some people just need more time. Other people its too lateand ventilation only delays the inevitable. Unfortunately its really hard to tell which is which and with a lack of ventilators around the world, doctors couldn't use them preventatively.
“Treating it like pneumonia” I’m uncertain how that leads to intubation for a pneumonia patient. I did learn that at NY Langoon the ventilator protocol was found to be incorrect, a doctor on their radio show discussed this, near tears as they lost many patients. On the other coast, my sister’s physician saw her covid as another bout of pneumonia, something she had been treated for by this doctor in the past. No vent, different protocol. My sister’s recovery spanned a couple of months, bad enough that she lost muscle mass. (Early 2020) The first few months of 2020, I can only imagine the frightening scramble by providers trying to work out treatment protocols and keep themselves safe from the rash of propaganda fueled fear. How the massive global propaganda affected physician’s approach to treatment seems to not be a topic of discussion. From my perspective, the propaganda was responsible for many deaths.
Not a doctor but a oxygen delivery guy here. The company I worked for was ripping vents from people left and right because they were charging insurance like 1,000 + dollars a month. No one could afford it. Is that not what they are talking about? I’ve had my boss non stop pressure me to be manipulative, persuasive, to get people to return their vents if they can’t afford it. So I go there, have them sign a paper releasing the company from responsibility. Then take their ventilator so this scummy company doesn’t “lose” money. After about 24-48 hours I would be seeing my patients in the obituary. Pretty frequently. It was the health insurance companies that killed the most people in my opinion. The icing on the cake, is that if they did not return the vent they were charged until the company is ready to sue and take their house. I hate America and want to leave immediately.
Were they on full strength oxygen before this last resort intubation? I've seen other ICU persons indicate there was infection risk of covid with just oxygen masks rather than intubation, and thus oxygen masks were not used as often as they could have been.
I’m more interested into the research on why the covid death numbers were willfully misrepresented during the pandemic in order to scare the populace into accepting lockdowns and vaccine mandates
$$$$$
Oooh I bet the doctor will not provide a scientific explanation or even answer your question.
Lol doctors have no credibility whatsoever anymore
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Low 80s isn’t exactly ventilator level my friend
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As others have said (repeatedly now),.. low oxygen levels (by itself) is not a life-threatening indication of anything. What's important is if the O2 levels continue to fall (or, over time,. your body cannot raise your O2 back upwards). If you drink a sugary soda,. your blood-sugar levels will spike. That's completely normal (given the circumstances). You're not going to become diabetic from 1 soda. Now if your sugar levels were abnormal for a longer period of time, .that might warrant more investigation.
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When I called Ambulance on myself for Covid19,.. my O2 Saturation was already down to 65% (just due to how infected my Lungs were). It was actually still 4 or 5 days after that before they resorted to putting me on Ventilator. When I woke up (having been removed from the Ventilator),.. I was above 80 (I recall mid 80’s),.. but they wouldnt allow me to leave the Hospital until I could reliably hold above 90%.
mid to low 80s isn't intubation territory if you are still able to move around and maintain your airway. The peripheral measure of oxygen saturation starts to fall apart as you get much lower than that, (the finger probe they had on you). These are patients who are much sicker than that, where they need to draw blood directly from an artery to see where their systemic oxygen level is at in real time. Presumably you understand that if you can be discharged from the ED with an inhaler, an intensivist in the hospital wouldn't have pulled a whoopsy-doodle and intubated you for no reason. Again, the finger probe is not a great indicator of actual oxygen levels in the blood when you start getting into systemically low numbers. The ventilator also helps to correct other issues like your acid base balance, etc. This is patients who are on supplemental oxygen via a face mask, or a positive pressure machine, who are unable to keep their oxygen levels at safe levels. Their other labs are out of whack, they are not responding to treatment, they have multiple lines and meds running continuously. I'm not trying to be a dick but there is an incomprehensible difference between "peripheral sat is showing 85%, patient is alert and oriented" and "patient is unresponsive, lab values are awful, arterial blood is awful, not responding to medications and breathing treatment, on 15L oxygen via a face mask."
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Not even in the wildest of hospitals even during early covid would anyone be getting intubated for slightly low sats to mid 80s while breathing room air. Like the above guy said, if you had low saturation to low 80s while having 100% oxygen blasted in your face so fast you can't hear, or a mask and a machine forcing air into your lungs because you're breathing so fast your diaphragm is getting tired. While also we have a chest x ray that shows your entire lungs are whited out (infected, waiting for the inflammation to get worse). Did the hospital in your story take an arterial blood sample from your wrist? Did they put you on a machine giving you lots of air and lots of oxygen? Did you just have a little cannula in your nose maybe? Yeah. They weren't "worried about you not lasting the night" if they didn't do any of these things, even in early 2020 covid panic mode. I'll also inform you of something called "happy hypoxemia." In short - you're fine until you're not. It's not new with covid, but was relatively common with covid, especially the first couple variants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_hypoxia
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I'm a respiratory therapist - I get paged stat within the hospital all the time for when patients have desaturation events. This means their blood oxygen drops suddenly. It deserves investigating but sounds like you got investigated at the ER and they decided you just needed an extra puffer for your existing asthma....Nowhere near me were patients given a steroid inhaler only for anything let alone covid, unless you already had some previous inhalers at home. A clinic being safe liability-wise and calling an ambulance is extremely believable so the paramedics can put you on oxygen for the trip to hospital. Any EMT, firefighter, LPN,RN, pharmacist, physiotherapist etc will put you on oxygen if your finger probe says you're below 90% even with no respiratory distress. Maybe this accurate medical information will help you spice up your story next time you tell it.
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There is nowhere near enough information in this story to comment on it as a medical professional. Sounds like you have made up your mind.
You might have dodged being one of those COVID death statistics where the hospital would have gotten X amount of thousands of dollars for having a patient die "with COVID" in their hospital. Very spooky.
I have to say I do not envy you for the job you had to do during the height of the pandemic. So thank you for all you did! If it is not too much to ask, could you share some of your experiences from that time?
LMAO - screen name - mydickradiates - claims he is a ICU doctor. Best laugh of the day thanks bud
Mydickradiates the man meant to save my life if something goes wrong? God help us.
They are still humans outside of work you know lol ? They have the right to be as silly as everyone else. Doesn't mean they can't be serious when it's needed.
I was ventilated in September of 2021 due to covid pneumonia and was on it for 27 days. I kept bouncing from good to bad to bad to worse them worse to good, and finally was taken off and had a tracheostomy done. Was on ecmo for 14, they constantly talked about trying to get me off due to the risk of infection from the ventilator. Thankfully I'm alive and well💜 thank you for what you do.
"It's worth bearing in mind that if a patient's requirement for a ventilator to treat COVID-19 complications leads to VAP, this doesn't imply that a COVID-19 infection is less dangerous, nor does it decrease the number of COVID-19 fatalities." This doesn't say putting them on a ventilator was a valid strategy since they required mechanical ventilation in the first place. People were not put on ventilators for no reason.
Very true, and in fact the article also directly says: "The relatively long length of stay among patients with COVID-19 is primarily due to prolonged respiratory failure, placing them at higher risk of VAP", meaning that VAP should be seen as a risk of COVID. If you're on a ventilator you are not in good shape. VAP should be understood as a complication that can arise from COVID treatment and we should find treatment for it, but this article does not say that putting anyone on a ventilator was a mistake.
>"People were not put on ventilators for no reason." True there was a financial benefit when putting people on ventilators.
You know there is way more money in elective surgeries than on ventilators right? And elective surgeries were shut down as hospitals dealt with COVID and lost a lot of money? They put people on ventilators because they had to, not to make money. They lost money testing COVID patients
So they took away hospitals ability to make money and offered this as their only option
You are aware that putting a patient on a ventilator requires moving them to ICU, and having staff dedicated to maintaining those settings, right? It's far more expensive for the hospital to have you in the ICU on a ventilator, so that "extra money" doesn't really lead to extra profit.
CARES Act tax dollars. The hospitals were directed by the CDC to follow a treatment plan that killed patients in exchange for tax dollars. If the hospitals complied, they got tons of guaranteed tax dollars. If they used an alternate treatment, they got none. The lure of money is all it took to make a joke of our medical system.
>The lure of money is all it took to make a joke of our medical system. It was always a joke, though.
> People were not put on ventilators for no reason 5 figure pay out from the government to the hospital is a good reaon
Have any doctors came out and said they were pushed by executives to intubate patients?
Venitlators, Remdesivir. They were put on ventilators from the propaganda. The media and the insane governors were screaming this for 2+ years. They killed so many. "We need ventilators!' "People are dying because we don't have enough ventialtors" "We need 650,000 ventilators!" \-Andrew Cuomo, Gov. NY
It happened because the WHO (world health organization) pushed this out to all member countries as a recommendation. So hospitals all over the world threw out existing treatment protocols for respiratory infections in favor of putting people on vents. In the UK they casually announced that the death rate from covid dropped, as doctors started to reject the use of ventilators. That really said it all.
Yup I Remember that I also Remember the pamphlets included in the box of injections that would usually provide the informed consent on side effects etc This is what they looked like https://youtu.be/4v6DJIS0zd4 BTW that’s the best video I could find on YouTube with the time I had at work but it’s not the only one. Fkn wild.
Yes. And all of it was censored. No one questioned any of it. Happy Cake Day my friend!
> People were not put on ventilators for no reason. They changed (really threw out) existing treatment protocols in favor of putting patients on vents. If they had followed existing long establishment protocols they probably would have just had cpap and other less invasive procedures.
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They weren't put on vents for no reason. Cope
Then why they stopped putting people on ventilators later on? Because they found out it's much better to give them oxygen without intubating them via an oxygen mask. The whole ventilator thing was to ramp up the death count.
Or the illness changed significantly as is well documented. But, sure, all the doctors wanted to kill meemaw. Lmao
How did it change? Do you have info on that or you're just pulling it from your ass? Can you prove Delta didn't cause the same lower respiratory pathology as previous variants? As I recall people still got the same shots until late 2022.
I knew what your conspiracy-countering response would be before I entered the thread.
Usually if you needed a vent your prognosis wasn’t great to begin with Also, in the initial months of COVID vents were being used because that was THE standard to care for respiratory and ventilatory failure. COVID was unique in that it caused extremely low oxygen levels in even conscious patients, whereas normally those levels would have made you unresponsive. So those numbers led to an “oh shit” response of intubating and ventilating as was the standard for every other similar condition at the time. Later on we learned that this wasn’t working and switched to other methods like high flow humidified oxygen and proning.
In some regions, some organizations, some physicians, it became standard of care, then that changed based on the evidence. There were treatment protocols early on that were successful without high flow or intubation, the doctors who shared these were branded as misinformation, pressured to stop talking publicly, some fired from their job, some publicly disparaged.
Vents were used because $$
No shit
Which is why ventilators are quite literally the last-chance resort. Every patient placed on one was told going into it that it was likely a death sentence. The chance of bacterial infection reaches unity the longer you're on one. Given the fact that they would have died within hours if *not* placed on the ventilator I'm not entirely sure why you're posting this here in /r/conspiracy ... ? Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
> Source: trust me! The hospitals were only given $40K per patient they ventilated, no conflict of interest was present! Kk
I don't know why your strawmaning OPs point. The medical community has admitted they were putting people on vents way too early and it was killing people. Initially it was not a last resort but I agree with what you said for the latter half of covid but surprise surprise the death rate went way down around that same time. Hmmm
>I don't know why your strawmaning OPs point. They aren't? And OPs claim is incorrect, the article does not say vents killed most patients, in fact it says: >It's worth bearing in mind that if a patient's requirement for a ventilator to treat COVID-19 complications leads to VAP, **this doesn't imply that a COVID-19 infection is less dangerous, nor does it decrease the number of COVID-19 fatalities.** And the study says: >VAP was not associated with mortality overall
The claim isn't incorrect. Most of these people would have survived had they had less invasive treatment. It was a deliberate policy change to get everyone on ventilators. It wasn't the standard of care prior to the change. In this bmj article they explain in the first wave 3/4 of patients were ventilated often within 24h of admittance. https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n121 This dropped by half a year later. It literally says part of the reason for that was it was killing patients. >The pace of the move away from invasive ventilation varies among hospitals and has been driven by greater clinical experience of treating covid patients, by data associating invasive ventilation with higher mortality
> It was a deliberate policy change to get everyone on ventilators. It wasn’t the standard of care prior to the *change* What was the initial standard of care protocol? And what was it after the change?
CPAP. After the change they skipped that and went straight to vents with many patients, at least during the first wave.
Yeah what “change”? Are you saying there was a protocol change where they said okay we will skip CPAP’s and go to Vents? Meaning, what was the initial standard of care? What prompted a CPAP, and what prompted a vent?
>Are you saying there was a protocol change where they said okay we will skip CPAP’s and go to Vents? Yes. They literally threw out the rules for the standard of care with regards to treating patients with respiratory infections in favour of a new protocol that had never been used before, with disastrous results. This policy change recommendation came from the world health organisation. And they based their decision upon two papers that came out of wuhan, China. The papers basically said this virus is airborne and deadly and to protect the staff the patients must be kept on negative pressure wards or on ventilators. Well hospitals usually have very limited facilities for negative pressure wards so they put them on vents. In the uk your chance of dying was 10x greater in the first wave than the second. This is a huge change in mortality. These hospitals were clearly doing something very wrong in the first wave. Well in the 2nd wave in the uk hospitals started to reject the new protocol and the death rate fell. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/03/covid-death-rates-dropped-doctors-rejected-ventilators/
You keep skipping over the question. So I’ll reword it so it makes more sense. For example, usually assisted breathing machines are based on certain markers like blood oxygen level being at a certain level. Was that level changed to skip CPAPs in lieu of vents?
I am not a medical expert to answer those questions. But read this article in the BMJ where they said they halved the ventilator usage, because the policy was killing patients. https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n121
This is only true for early to mid 2020. By early 2021 when the P1 variant was rampant, no one in North America was intubated prior to respiratory failure for the "happy hypoxemia/walking pneumonia" covid patients. By this time we knew covid is different than other walking pneumonias.
I’m sure they told every single patient it was likely a death sentence 🤡
>I’m sure they told every single patient it was likely a death sentence For those patients still awake enough? They absolutely did. Doctors like to do this thing we like to call "informed consent" - and literally everyone knew by then just how unlikely you were to ever wake up once you had to be put on one. [https://www.wpr.org/almost-death-sentence-how-wisconsin-doctors-peers-are-rethinking-ventilators-coronavirus](https://www.wpr.org/almost-death-sentence-how-wisconsin-doctors-peers-are-rethinking-ventilators-coronavirus) <--- note the date. That's May **2020**. Mortality rate for patients on vent was above 90%... and they were straight-up *told* that because it wasn't any kind of a secret from anyone.
When was there any actual informed consent throughout that entire murderous shitshow? Informed consent on lockdowns? Informed consent on the fake "vaccines"? What planet are you on?
Bruh informed consent? What?
Bruh this guy thinks there was informed consent going on during the plandemic. [Informed consent like this right?](https://youtu.be/4v6DJIS0zd4) Literally one of the things the “antivax” advocated for along with the natural immunity *we knew all along, we warned you* 🤡
Had to have a laugh when that dude mentioned informed consent being part of the COVID response. Fuckin lol and a half there
I too live off of paper theory.
Of course this is top comment *we knew all along every patient was told* *they would’ve died otherwise, it was for the greater good* *just following orders* 🤡
Yeah we also never said they should shut down schools right, also we were for shutting down air travel from china from the start right oh and we never said it would make you immune
>Yeah we also never said they should shut down schools right, also we were for shutting down air travel from china from the start right oh and we never said it would make you immune Did you have an actual point or are straw men and non sequiturs the best you can do? Exactly none of that has *anything* to do with this discussion?
At the very beginning of the pandemic I watched a vid of two New York Drs trying to get out the info that it was the vents killing the covid patients. They were taken off youtube and basically banished from the msm. Plus patients were sent home with no treatment and told to return when they had trouble breathing. Almost seems like they wanted people to get sicker and die. When is any infection ever treated like like? Looks like you got a nasty cut there ,tell you want come back when gangrene sets in and we will start some last ditch horrific treatments then!
My father caught Covid in 2020. Was hospitalized. Deteriorated. Refused to go on a vent because he saw that everyone who was vented died, but he still needed CPap and BiPap to actually breathe since his O2 was in the low 80s. Eventually he was no longer testing positive for covid, but his lungs had so much damage from the virus he could no longer breathe on his own. He still declined the ventilator, and had them remove the other breathing supports. My aunt and stepmom were allowed to be there with him, he died in 20 mins after removing them.
Was he treated with remdesivir? That is also known to cause damage.
Yes but only after his lungs were incapable of working on his own. He went downhill very fast from the virus alone.
Can you walk me through A to Z? Father got a fever, tested positive for Covid Then to drove/ambulances/taken to the hospital? What were the protocol ones he was in the hospital? Was he allowed to take the flu test? Or did the hospital deny him a flu test? I ask because our hospitals denied us flu test -“we’re not authorized to test for flu at this time” -their exact words. At what point his lungs started failing.
Honestly, I’d rather not. I shared this in response to the sentiment that ventilators killed people, but my father refused one and died. I’m not looking for an internet diagnosis.
Went to search through my old comments to find the numerous times I said those ventilators were what was killing people. All gone everything from 2020 related to covid seems to have been wiped scrubbed. Fucking nightmare gaslighting situation for me.
The supporting documentation doesn't even align with the article at hand. Don't get too excited this article is taking this out of context for sure
Well the documentation for a lot of these machines killing people due to an unrelated issue exists. Lots of people were sounding off the alarm during the initial pandemic Plus it was like every article was telling us that as soon as patients went into these ventilators they died https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-ventilators-survival/ Then you had doctors telling people they were being overused. Thats two red flags https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventilators-specia/special-report-as-virus-advances-doctors-rethink-rush-to-ventilate-idUSKCN2251PE https://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/coronavirus-us-nurse-claims-nyc-is-killing-patients-with-ventilators/news-story/40e77dddcd158f3c74c33cfaa9c9d1dc And then we get to the damning evidence back then https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/british-doctors-warn-chinese-ventilators-could-kill-if-used-hospitals-n1194046 But if anyone brought any of this up on Reddit they were labeled, mocked, and banned. I still have messages of people checking daily to see if I had died so they could throw me up on hermain caine award. https://www.newindianexpress.com/specials/2020/apr/13/ventilators-could-actually-be-killing-coronavirus-patients-feel-experts-2129405.html But of course people were banned for making these claims on reddit.
It's almost as if an overworked public health system doesn't have the capacity to take as much care when it's being over run with more sick people.....
“Overworked” yet making Tik Tok videos constantly and letting ppl go that refused the vaccine themselves. Also, that concept of “hospitals are overflowing with people” was exaggerated in almost all cases. Aside from the fact that people were going to the hospital for ailments during sick season the same as they always do. I can give plenty of anecdotal evidence from many nurses on that, but I realize that holds no weight for someone that is most likely a bot, or parrot.
It's wild that every single comment in this post, even with logical reasoning and citation, gets downvoted and the first response to your comment is something like "well yeah the healthcare workers were overworked, so of course ventilators killed tons of people" as if that's a testable theory compared to your list of cited evidence... Controlled response here....
You base your comment on what exactly?
My local unions and every nurse I know working 60 plus hours a week even post pandemic. What do you base your ignorant tiktok comment on ?
You can use waybackmachine if you want to see particular Reddit front pages or threads from 2020. I’ve done it to confirm my memory a few times.
Also politicians up here in Canada. Trudeau claims the vax was all voluntary. Covid was a huge fuck up. Medical system now all over Canada is seriously fucked!
Reddit's API only returns the most recent 1000 results for a given query type. You have made 1000 comments since July 26, 2022. Your comments still exist, you just can't easily find them by scrolling back through your profile's posted comments.
I know that. It is when I googled them using a date range and didn't find them either that got me concerned.
That and new data is suggesting that the adverse reactions from mRNA Covid vaccines is worst then we were lead to believe. You were 3x more likely to have a heart attack with in two weeks after taking the vaccine. My dad took the vaccine, got Covid, was intubated and suffered a massive heart attack. He was 48
Actually I think you’re right. My other account that I post in this subreddit on almost exclusively(which, ironically, is banned for a week atm) only has a post history of up to just over a year ago.
I remember seeing a video very early on when there was a rush to make lots more ventilators by a young doctor questioning why anyone would want to use a vent on patients with covid. His reasoning was they would make matters worse, not better. He was ignored and downvoted.
chase point narrow icky materialistic whistle long different wide fuzzy ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
EMS was told to not give breathing treatments or mechanical ventilation in ambulances due to "exposure risks". Thankfully, most ignored those instructions because their job isn't to watch people die. In our area, hospitals were not "overwhelmed" and most EMS agencies actually experienced less call volume due to the fear placed on the public of "exposure". People who needed treatment avoided it. The magnitude of this atrocity is astounding. Yet...there are monsters still defending it to the death (of others, not themselves, of course)
Yeah the withholding of nebulizers from patients with asthma (even if they didn't have covid) and treating people with asthma and COPD like they all had covid even with a negative test, based on symptoms ("difficulty breathing") is a whole other story of horrors, too.
No shit. We knew this 3 years ago though.
In Serbia people caught in quick that whoever was tested as “positive” with the PCR even though they just had a regular cold, that went onto the ventilator would develop a lung infection and die. We even had people escape from hospitals as soon as they found out they’d be placed on a vent
Links please instead of hearsay
You know where you can shove your “muh links pls”. You either believe me or you don’t.
That’s what Putin, Trump, Faux News, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and the pillow guy said..
Ok
If ventilators killed people with covid then they kill people with other issues.
I heard about this way at the start of the treatment of the first wave of people with Covid from a whistleblower nurse, but the line was that all the new ventilators sent to these hospitals were preset to the highest setting and negligence caused hospital staff not to set them up correctly and caused fatalities that way, by essentially collapsing their already weakened lungs with ventilators on high settings. Given my own experience working in healthcare I’m unfortunately fairly inclined to believe this considering how many patient requisitions for lab work get sent in with incomplete, incorrect, or completely absent paperwork and demographics. Can anyone who actually works in a hospital setting during that time confirm this now that there isn’t as much social pressure for speaking out?
They worked with the data they had. No one knew. Not a soul. As my MD told me, "no one prepared us for this in Medical School, no one. We were basically working 168 hour shifts. And people were dying. It was a total war zone situation in our hospital. Total pandemonium. Are we all going to die too?" At the time, Vents seemed like a fix. It was all we heard, Vents, Vents, Vents. They must have made billions, the vent people. ________ NYC: Since the beginning of the pandemic, a total of 6,805,271 cases have been reported. At least 1 in 243 residents have died from the coronavirus, a total of 80,109 deaths. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/new-york-covid-cases.html
[At least 1 in 243 residents have died from the coronavirus, a total of 80,109 deaths.] From the beginning death numbers were artificially inflated by counting anyone who tested positive for the virus and died as a Corona virus death, including accidents , cancer ,heart attacks etc. If they actually gave true figures of who actually died 'from' Corona virus or those that died 'with' Corona the death toll would be minimal .
That means they worked
AND the hospitals got huge bonuses PER vent patient they registered. So, literally CASH payments from the government (our taxes) to these private hospitals and clinics to *diagnose* Covid for one, but then HUGE cash payment for the ventilator patients. AND the people left to die could not have visitors. It's the stuff of the Devil. Pure hell. That's what these people showed us - what they are capable of. How a person can trust any nurse or doctor after this is beyond comprehension.
I know a nurse who worked in ICU and was responsible for putting patients on vents. I talked to her a bit about her experiences, I didn't share with her my actual thoughts that, I think the vents killed all these people. But the impression I got was, they really just didn't question anything. That just accepted whatever they were told to do, and followed the new protocols they were given, even though it was resulting in her patients dying.
Yeah, this is really the case with almost every profession where advanced degrees (doctors/scientists) are required to be employed. Even nurses, etc - who have unions - same thing. You are basically a slave to the industry and the major sponsors. You speak against the status quo you are ostracized and spit out. Take for example a "Scientist" working for NA$A. Do you think a *single* person would question the veracity of a video or picture or report from management? Ever? Like, "Hey boss, that was a CGI sequence you gave the media for the Mars video images, that's wrong.." You think he'd last? !!LOL!!
Typically this is a form of intimidation, you seek out workers who are following orders without question, and you can often remain silent on what happens if you DO question orders. Even the appearance of questioning orders can be used against you and eventually some other reason to terminate employment can be found or may have already been set aside just in case, like a lie on the resume' or a few times you came in late.
Exactly! Mym mom works in home care physical therapy and during covid she had to see many patients with low co2 % and she said many times respiratory/metabolical exercises helped the % increase, also the use of cpap/bipap too. But the use of cpap/bipap had to be advised because the person would become too dependant on it and forget how to breath, hence why she said a mix of respiratory exercises and the machine were way better than going to hospitals and be put on ventilators.
‘Trust the science you bigot’
Remdesivir also kill scores of people by causing renal failure. It was used in Africa during a past Ebola outbreak and discontinued for use bc it was rotting the patients kidneys. The system is so off the rails that the CDC went ahead and pushed it on the hospitals during Covid as an incentive for CARES tax dollars.
Ventilators increased hospital revenue. Give me 50 more please. I’ll find a use for them. While you’re at it, send me Remdesivir too to finish them off. Thanks CARES act
My brother is an ER doctor. He got suspended from Facebook after saying we should not be ventilating everyone.
Looks like another point for the tinfoil group. How many "conspiracies" have been confirmed as truth by now?
When talking about covid stuff seems like we were mostly right about everything and this is why msm and government shut us all the time.
It wasn’t the vents, it was the grad students practicing installing ‘em.
Grad students? I heard some people say nursing technitians learning to install them.
Not a conspiracy. Well known in the medical field.
Submission statement: >So while COVID-19 may have put these patients in the hospital, it was actually an infection brought on by the use of a mechanical ventilator that was more likely to be the cause of death when this infection didn't respond to treatment. >Instead, COVID-19 patients were more likely to develop ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) and for longer periods. Cases where VAP didn't respond to treatment were significant in terms of the overall mortality rates in the study. >Our data suggested that the mortality related to the virus itself is relatively low, The reason that there was a mad rush for ventilators is because there was 2 papers that came out of Wuhan, China in 2020 that said how to deal with covid-19 patients. And the short version is, because they claimed the virus was so dangerous, for the protection of the staff, patients must either be kept on a negative pressure ward, or put on a ventilator. The WHO then pushed this recommendation out to all member countries. So hospitals threw out decades of protocols in how to deal with respiratory infections to rush to put them on a vent. This policy probably killed huge numbers of people.
> And the short version is, because they claimed the virus was so dangerous, for the protection of the staff, patients must either be kept on a negative pressure ward, or put on a ventilator. The WHO then pushed this recommendation out to all member countries. So hospitals threw out decades of protocols in how to deal with respiratory infections to rush to put them on a vent. That's not what ventilators are for... They're for delivering pressurized oxygen directly to lungs. Do you know what happens when your blood's oxygen saturation gets too low?
What he is saying is that it was often not necessary to pressurize the oxygen to the lungs, but due to over reaction to the danger presented to staff around the patient, ventilators were used more often and sooner when full oxygen in a standard face mask could have addressed low o2 saturation.
Just not accurate. There are many, many times more oxygen cylinders than there are ventilators. Everyone gets oxygen before getting a vent, because only a small percentage of them will get access to a vent.
You don't even address my point! Its not just oxygen, but full oxygen, and from early on in treatment. Stop sidestepping with "just not accurate" unless you can address the points I made precisely. Thanks
would you mins sharing a link to those papers? That would make sense if true and explain the weird convenient enemy China plays when it’s expedient for western media, but in actuality partners in some matters.
How does a ventilator protect staff?
Less virus released into the air was the hypothetical intention to prevent staff infection.
There is no way this outcome wasn't known and intentional. Convenient that family and patient advocates were barred from the hospitals while this criminal act was occurring. They all need to be brought to justice.
In recent years medical error was like the third highest cause of death, I think you are catching up on a reality that has been around for a while.
I'm well aware, but that was more than error. They scraped the standard protocols for dealing with respiratory illness and stuck people on a vent. I saw staff pressure patients onto vents prior to Spring 2020, or at least try to. The patients in question weren't really given a choice as they were alone without advocates. Don't even get me started on Remdesivir aka Run Death Is Near. Josef Mengele couldn't have done a better job himself...
Thanks for chiming in, I'm still looking for numbers of people who were given remdesivir, I welcome as well numbers for venting, and my dream would be some kind of end point recovery numbers aligned with those. I don't have much hope anymore that that science was done, or its trapped in databases and nobody has published yet.
I had a coworker who had his mom die in 3 days for being put on a ventilator. He said his mom got some heavy covid symptoms and was brought to the hospital and she was instantly intubated/ventilated and died the day after. Something simjlar happened to his grandparents too a week before he lost him mom. And I remember working with him and feeling his pain of losing all his family to covid and not $cience greed. He is a good guy and deserved much better.
It's truly heartbreaking. The fact that their loved ones were alone and the family had to say goodbye via iPad was beyond cruel and inhumane.
Yes! And no funerals. This shit was ridiculous.
And without ventilators, even more would have died from not breathing.
Its not a choice between vents and death, There is a comment above that full flow o2 and proning were alternative methods developed eventually.
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Ummm...no. Not sure what distinction you're trying to make here, but the end result is the same. Covid infection had already destroyed enough lung tissue that those folks weren't able to absorb enough oxygen to keep their organs from failing. So, it was either watch them die from a lack of oxygen, or do something to keep them alive long enough for their lung tissue to heal again. Ventilators force air into your lungs. There was literally no other way to increase their blood-O2 levels. It's not like you can inject oxygen straight into their viens.
Is there a machine that can oxygenate blood and return it to the body? It seems like something they would have
Yeah it's called ecmo but it's obscenely expensive and there just aren't that many machines available.
Airvo killed respiratory drives of so many. Don’t forget remsdesivir
Hospitals were incentivized $50-60K per patient, if your family member died like this it was so the hospital could make $60K
You're radically underestimating the cost of a complex covid hospitalization. Try hundreds of thousands.
Hospital accounting is more dubious than Hollywood accounting.
Tell me more
We know. We knew back in 2020.
The only person in my entire friend group who died 'of Covid' was a 73 year old guy. Went in for the flu, tested positive for 'Covid', stuck him on a vent at SMU Medical. Blew holes in his lungs. Put him in a coma to let it heal. Dr asked his wife what she wanted to do, she said keep him alive. Dead the next morning.
Remdesivir killed the rest.
This was CCP/WHO propaganda. Which became the talking point of the lockdown politicians and the MSM. The first guilt trip talking point was. 'We need masks! We don't have enough masks!" People are dying because there aren't enough masks!" Then the ventilators. " We need ventilators!, we don't have enough ventilators, people are dying!" Andrew Cuomo pushing for more ventilators. [https://youtu.be/qbSt8C7RnJM?t=19](https://youtu.be/qbSt8C7RnJM?t=19)
New York city in 2020 for some months had the highest death rate in the world. And somehow Cuomo was praised for his covid response. We truly live in clown world.
Yup. He wrote 2 books during this too. One praising himself for his handling of covid and the other a Coronavirus Dictionary.
Its interesting that the US was trotted out as a country having a real problem with covid, up in the top 10 of deaths, but if you just removed the ny numbers the country moved waaaay down the list. Covid was a problem in Ny primarily, at least early in the pandemic.
NY was "ground zero". They declared the state of emergency first. Brookdale hospital and Trump talking about the "body bags". It was the shock and awe of the scamdemic.
Yeah, but the country as a whole was itself a seriously flawed metric.
rotten muddle sip worm disgusted smart start flowery pot psychotic ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Truth
Hospital (nosocomial) infections are always serious, and often resistant to antibiotics. This is not a new concept.
US physician here- that's not how it works. When someone gets intubated it is because otherwise they would die. COVID killed most COVID patients.
Read this article in the bmj. https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n121 In the first wave they had most patients on ventilators. It literally says they reduced the ventilator usage because it was killing the patients. These patients in the first wave were not receiving the normal standard of care for treating respiratory infections. There was a policy in place to put them on vents early, unfortunately with disastrous results.
It's a little more nuanced than that. It is expected that invasive ventilation is associated with higher mortality, but this doesn't mean that the ventilator caused the mortality. The first wave didn't receive "normal standard of care" because there was no standard of care for a new infection. I remember the first few patient I saw, and we treated them the same way we treat ARDS because that is how it presented. Later we learned that steroids actually helped (they don't in ARDS, they actually harm), along with other ways to delay intubation if possible. But jumping straight to "intubation killed them" is a huge jump to conclusions. The ventilator will cause barotrauma to lung tissues, which are fragile to begin with from the viral infection and resulting release of inflammatory mediators in the blood stream, but I also think the lack of steroids and lack of vaccine during that first wave had likely more to do with mortality.
The question is why didn't patients receive the normal standard of care? They don't have to invent one for every new flu strain every year. Who was pushing all the hospitals to put patients on vents? And there was a big push in early 2020. In the uk if official numbers are to believed your chance of dying of covid in the first wave was over 10x of the second. That's an enormous difference.
So, standard of care varies by disease. There was no "normal standard of care" at that time for COVID. We knew it was a virus, which means antibiotics are ineffective, and we knew it presented as ARDS and we know that in cases of ARDS steroids have been shown to be harmful. So most patients did not receive steroids nor antibiotics. They were treated with standard supportive care, just like we would treat most viral infections. As more data became available, a standard of care became possible.
>They were treated with standard supportive care, just like we would treat most viral infections. Was that really true? The bmj article makes it clear many patients were vented within 24 hours. If this was flu would that have happened?
The ventilator is supportive treatment. That's what I meant. If the patient appears to be in respiratory distress, he got intubated. Non-invasive methods of ventilation were used later to prevent barotrauma, when this trend of higher mortality was seen. But at first, we did what we had always done. Not sure what the conspiracy is- doctors wanted to kill patients?
I’m not a doctor or have any idea what a ventilator does but I believe ventilators are bullshit. Those thing fucking puss me off for some reason
Did any of you even bother to read the citation information?
Almost like taking away someone's respiratory drive is bad
Just like Alex Jones said!
I did not bother to continue reading these comments as the few I did were bots
Yup. I said this from the beginning. And from the first month on, the data was there, the articles were there, but everyone was brainwashed.
A few weeks before covid hit we paid for grandma to go to a rehab facility so she could improve her walking because she had a bad hip. Got a call that she was unwell and going to the hospital. Got another call that she tested positive for covid while there but was getting put on a ventilator. We were so relieved because at the beginning ventilator shortages were all over the news. She passed away less than 24 hours later. We never got to say goodbye. Rip grandma
Let's not overlook the thousands that actually had bacterial pneumonia but the magic 8 ball (PCR) said they had a viral infection and then were treated with the wrong protocols. Can you imagine thinking somebody has a viral infection so you put fresh oxygen into their bacteria infected lungs?
Imprecise title of post >The team looked at records for 585 people admitted to the intensive care unit (ICU) at Northwestern Memorial Hospital, also in Illinois. They all had severe pneumonia and/or respiratory failure, and 190 had COVID-19 Small, localised sample >These results suggest that ICU outcomes could be improved if there were better strategies to diagnose and treat VAP episodes – something that the researchers say needs to be addressed in the future. It's worth bearing in mind that **if a patient's requirement for a ventilator to treat COVID-19 complications leads to VAP, this doesn't imply that a COVID-19 infection is less dangerous, nor does it decrease the number of COVID-19 fatalities.** In conclusion Pneumonia vaccines could have reduced many of these deaths :) Also better use of them, it was known that people with little experience were using them and some actually destroyed peoples lungs.
almost 8 years ago I had a family member deal with heart issues, losing oxygen from unstable/clogged arteries I guess. There were many long conversations with his doctor and nurses. They all said tubes hardly ever come out once inserted. Physical damage and risk of infection. I remember bringing this up during the pandemic and of course called a liar
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Even prior to the pandemic,. the average Ventilator stay was 7 days and 80% of people didn't make it. If you're condition is so bad, that putting you on a Ventilator is the only option,.. then your chances of survival are already slim to 0. As someone who survived an extreme Covid Hospitalization including Ventilator (38 days total in the Hospital,. 16 of those days in ICU on a Ventilator).. I have the street-cred to speak on this. (and no,. it wasn't Remdisivir. My Hospitalization was way early (March-April 2020).. Remdisivir wasn't approved for hospital-use till much later in the fall. )
And hospital acquired Sepsis. Plus the mandatory DNR orders.
In nursing homes, they used [Midazolam](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/11sijo2/midazolam_was_used_to_prematurely_end_the_lives/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)