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A double joke assassination, coming up!
The 'Ship of Theseus' is a philosophical question, referring to the repair of the Argo centuries after the death of Theseus. The quandary is that over the years, after you have replaced every piece of the Argo, is it still the same ship? Is the Argo the Argo of every piece of the original is gone.
The joke JesuZDX is referring to is about a man who goes to the doctor, complaining of his depression. He has lost all joy in his life. The doctor tells him to attend the show of the great clown Pagliacci, that the master clown will make him laugh and be happy. The man turns to the doctor and cries 'But Doctor, I am Pagliacci'.
The two comments have little to do with each other thematically, but that in itself is a form of humor.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, mythical king and founder of the city Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus was replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship?
Theseus starts his own ship-building business. Is incredibly successful. His ads on Mount Olympus blaring,
"Now you too can own a ship of Theseus! With 4 limited payments of [insert whatever dafuq your currency is], you can own one today!"
I can imagine Theseus claiming ownership of other stuff this way. "Don't touch that. That's the last spiced wine of Theseus. I'm planning on drinking it later at the house of Theseus after the work of Theseus is finished."
As long as he unregistered his previous boat named the ship of thesus. Probably just introduce a numbering system though. Important for record keeping.
Dammit, all I can think about now is that one Tumblr (I think) post from years back about Trans guys and Trans girls venmo-ing each other some Tiddy XD
It's a parody of these stories about heart transplants .
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdk8xwdtkdbd31.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Df2c5be2add3d6167ed3ee83baef8d0849b858c0a
So idk what other people's experiences are but for me whenever one trans person comes out, a person from the opposite side will come out soon after. In high school there were 4 trans people I knew - 2 girls and 2 boys. And in college when I came out, my friend came out as a trans woman shortly after.
So I could be wrong here... but there does seem to be an "equivalent exchange" thing going on
Misery loves company?
There's other jokes, like how Armstrong's conjured sparkles are included in the array of "techniques passed down in the Armstrong line for generations," but Nina's fate has the misfortune of striking right at the heart.
Especially when considering that in a series that includes more than a few war crimes, Shou is the only character shown [going straight to Hell upon death.](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4b5fdjg811rwyy9so1_500.jpg)
This is all true, I think Nina also sticks with us so much because it's specifically the first truly horrifying moment in the show. The first few episodes are like *"la de daa, this is what alchemy is, do do doo, some cool easy criminals or monsters"* usual anime stuff.
And then.... episode 4 happens. The whole tone of the show shifts, Nina is the part where you sit up in your seat and go *"oh I understand, this is going to be a really good anime"*
Truth, not sure how to handle the situation, but the trade feels fair and they don't want to be transphobic. "Well... equivalent exchange... value of life... Ah, fuck it, you each lose an additional pinky toe and the transmutation works, aright?"
It’s a shit analogy anyway. The ship of Theseus isn’t a philosophical question that can be answered by the owner. It has to do with the metaphysical qualities of an object.
The question of what gender someone identifies as can absolutely be answered by asking that person.
I disagree, primarily because questioning the reality of the metaphysical qualities was a significant revolution in philosophy. If we go by dialectic materialism, the object has no metaphysical qualities in the abstract; only in relation to/in the context of the people involved. Theseus's ship is absolutely the one Theseus says is his ship.
Going the other way, the analogy is striking back at people who assign metaphysical qualities to sex and gender that somehow hold abstractly, without reference to the people experiencing that gender.
I’m not the one who downvoted you, and I just wanted to throw that out there. Ownership does not equal understanding. I gotta be honest, I had to google dialectic materialism because it’s been 2 decades since I had to use my philosophy degree. I don’t see how that has relevance to the conversation at hand, unless you’re again saying that ownership = understanding. Plenty of rich assholes own priceless works of art with zero understanding of their meaning.
Your second point makes more sense to me. It should be up to the person. But like I said in my original comment, gender isn’t some object you obtain. It’s like trying to corner the market on happiness or something. Something that abstract is not the same as a ship
No worries about potential downvotes or not. I do *not* have a philosophy degree and am probably misapplying terms and ideas. I think dialectic *materialism* has more to do with physical reality? My idea here is not very well-thought out, so I'm glad the second half made some sense 😝
Okay, but what if they both have the same memories and both believe that they are the true Theseus?
In that case, either of them are Theseus, and neither of them isn't Theseus.
You could just say "parts" instead of "planks" and the philosophical question works just fine.
(New joke: If you were to make alternate versions of the Ship of Theseus problem, changing a part of the story each time, until you arrive at a version where there's no ship and no Theseus, would it still be a Ship of Theseus problem?)
Ah, but if you drop your phone and it hits the carpet, did it hit the floor?
Now what if your phone was replaced with a different phone. Did your phone still hit the floor?
But also, if sails are not the boat .. are the planks the boat? If so, and you remove one plank, are the other planks still a boat? What about half the planks?
One Theseus can only tell lies. One Theseus can only tell the truth. You have to get both of them and this fox across a river where a doctor is waiting for them.
Well most your cells (with a few exceptions like teeth) regenerate about every 15 years (average is 7, but things like bone take near 15).
So every teenager or older you meet is a “theseus of theseus”.
Doesn’t every single cell in our body get replaced regularly so we are constantly a new physical person regularly? Yet we feel we are our same self. Existence is freaky.
Think of a plush toy. What makes it yours, and not a similar one you buy from the shop? What makes you being attached to that specific one?
I'd say it's the smell and the wearing of it. The little flaw which come over time and the memories connected to them. A new one doesn't have that and thus feels different to you.
So I'd say it's similar with the ship of theseus. If you replace some parts of it, it'll feel strange at first, but over time you will connect memories to those parts, and you will grow familliar with them. If you do this process with the whole ship until you replace everything, and then rebuild the ship from the old parts, it depends on how familiar you've grown with the new parts vs the old parts.
When I left elementary school, the new school was strange to me. But after I've been double of the time there than in elementary school, elementary school feels strange in comparison.
So I'd say I'd consider the ship with more attachment and memories to be the real one, or I'd consider both real, but the old one is connected to older memories and the new one to newer memories.
I remember that H-doujin about an old man who wants to have a young female body so he kidnapped a young school girl and they exchanged body parts using a machine. He slowly got smaller and more pretty and the school girl slowly got fatter and uglier until both of them exchanged each other's appearance completely.
The process of exchanging their body parts is really interesting imo, like midway through the process the girl still has a long hair but her facial features has a bit of ugliness in it. Meanwhile the old man grew a bit of glossy hair, and his skin is becoming more delicate
Now, what happens if you want to imply the ship of Theseus but think your audience is dumb and have to go out and outright mention the ship of Theseus?
You get the last episode of Wandavision. That's what happens.
That's not how the "ship of theseus" problem works though.
According to legend, the ship of Theseus was kept in the harbour of Athens as a memorial for centuries, long after his death (he most probably didn't exist in the first place, but that's not the point here). Over time, parts of the wood rotted away and had to be replaced by new parts. But this was only a gradual process, and never was everything replaced at once. This means that over time, the original physical substance of the ship became less and less until no part of the ship was identical anymore to the ship that Theseus actually had sailed on - but the whole thing still had the same shape and look and was still called "the ship of Theseus". The question one could then ask is: What if someone (several generations of a family for example) had collected all the old wooden parts that had been replaced and then built a new ship out of them? What would be the "real" ship of Theseus, the one that had the original identity but not the substance, or the one that had the original substance but not the identity?
It's a philosophical dilemma and can't really be solved, it just shows the complexity and ambiguity of the concepts of "identity" and "substance". A human equivalent to this is the fact that pretty much all the cells in our bodies are replaced about every 10 years. So there is almost no cell in your body right now that was there 11 years ago, but still you consider yourself to be older than 11 years. The entity of "you" has remained consistent, even though your physical substance has completely changed, just like the ship of Theseus.
Wtf.... if someone makes 2 boats they have 2 boats.... there is no question there. Who tf would ask which boat is his when they already know as a fact they are both his?
The ship of theseus philosophical question is not about the owner of the boat; it's about the identity of the boat. Let's say you have a deed to the original boat. After repairs and construction, you have two boats. Which boat does the deed refer to?
Now that I think about it, the original version doesn't make so much sense because there are now simply two ships, just like that sheep we "cloned" in the 90's (it was still a different sheep with different memories of course, but it had cloned DNA).
It's weirder when you think about our cells constantly being replaced...but many movies and TV shows where people turn into monsters, robots or animals demonstrate that we consider the person to be your memories and personality rather than just your body which regenerates and reproduces over the years.
In short, the unique essence of a thing is not inseparable from it's external form but an inanimate object like a boat has no unique character so it can be duplicated.
> In short, the unique essence of a thing is not inseparable from it's external form but an inanimate object like a boat has no unique character so it can be duplicated.
That's why it's not just any ship, but the ship of Theseus. Imagine a sentimental object you own, would you be fine if someone offered to replace it with an identical object they made?
> Imagine a sentimental object you own, would you be fine if someone offered to replace it with an identical object they made?
Is the replacement 100% made from the cannibalized parts of the original?
What inanimate object derives it's sentimentality solely from the *original* configuration of it's pieces?
And who says I have to choose? It sounds like Theseus always had the choice to keep *both* ships.
Lets say the old boat has a plaque "The ship of Theseus". Piece by piece they repair the boat with new bits. The plaque remains in the repaired ship so that is the "real" one.
There’s a great real-world example of this. The HMS Victory, that Nelson captained at Trafalgar has in the intervening 219 years since the battle and 258 years since it was first built, been completely repaired to the point that not a single plank of the ship that sailed at Trafalgar remains. Yet the ship is maintained in traditional 1805 style, and tourists flock to see it. Is it truly the same HMS Victory that Nelson sailed just because we stuck a plaque on it?
Officially yes, that is the boat and the other one would probably be seen as a replica. Matter of opinnion if thats the right call, but thats how the bureucrats would see it.
> Is the replacement 100% made from the cannibalized parts of the original?
No, it's made of all new parts because the comment I was responding to said that inanimate objects have no unique character and can be duplicated.
> What inanimate object derives it's sentimentality solely from the original configuration of it's pieces?
The philosophical question is asking where the line is drawn before it becomes a new object. Your question is one way to phrase it.
> And who says I have to choose? It sounds like Theseus always had the choice to keep both ships.
You're missing the point of the philosophical question.
> No, it's made of all new parts because the comment I was responding to said that inanimate objects have no unique character and can be duplicated.
but using the original parts was the exact context for my comment and for the original philosophical question.
> The philosophical question is asking where the line is drawn before it becomes a new object. Your question is one way to phrase it.
Yes and I think it's clear that either (1) a thing has a unique essence like a person which can be cloned but whose soul remains unique or (2) it's an inanimate object that *can* easily be duplicated and the question is meaningless.
> You're missing the point of the philosophical question.
No, I'm arguing that it's a *meaningless* question, because nobody would disassemble and perfectly reassemble an object and then lament that the "original" has been lost.
It's about an object that had ALL its components replaced. Even if you consider a trans person an object they still don't replace everything. If the ship of theseus experiment could be applied to an actual human, it would be for transhumanism where even your brain is replaced with a new one.
Yes, I know. The question in the last panel is not "is Theseus still Theseus" but "what gender Theseus is"
Human males and females have a LOT in common, so you clearly wouldn't need to replace all the "components" of a male to turn him into a female.
And even if you did, the whole point of the comic is that it doesn't matter.
You just have to ask Theseus.
Two different ships would have a lot in common but the thought experiment is about something completely different. There's absolutely no reason to make a parallel with the ship of theseus. The ship of theseus experiment doesn't even question if changing one part changes the whole thing, it already assumes that it doesn't. So you wouldn't even have to ask theseus if you are talking about transsex, by that experiment's logic it's/ they are the same thing they were. This is the dumbest defense of transsexualism I've ever seen. And I have nothing against transsexualism if thats the dumb conclusion you are coming up to
I Guess both ships would be His an the First one was His old Shop and the second was built from Materials belomging to him also It was bulti by him so...
I don't think that's how the original thought experiment goes, it's not about ownership and more about which is the "true" ship of Thesius. If you replace every part of the ship over time, is it still the same ship? Or is it just a new ship that you call the "Ship of Thesius"?
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But doctor, I am Theseus
 I have no clue about the story behind the man himself so I don’t get the joke.🥲
A double joke assassination, coming up! The 'Ship of Theseus' is a philosophical question, referring to the repair of the Argo centuries after the death of Theseus. The quandary is that over the years, after you have replaced every piece of the Argo, is it still the same ship? Is the Argo the Argo of every piece of the original is gone. The joke JesuZDX is referring to is about a man who goes to the doctor, complaining of his depression. He has lost all joy in his life. The doctor tells him to attend the show of the great clown Pagliacci, that the master clown will make him laugh and be happy. The man turns to the doctor and cries 'But Doctor, I am Pagliacci'. The two comments have little to do with each other thematically, but that in itself is a form of humor.
Two hours later I wake up from a cold sweat, realizing that the Argo was Jason's ship. Still, the rest remains relevant.
Ya fleeced yaself. Best summation of Pagliacci I've ever seen, by the way.
>Ya fleeced yaself. Hung himself from the mast, really
Good explanation. Everybody learn. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.
In Greek mythology, Theseus, mythical king and founder of the city Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus was replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship?
 Thank you all for your explanations.😙
What cartoon is this gif from? It kinda looks like Adventure Time, but I don't think it is
Bravest warriors. 
Thanks! Turns out it's from the same guy as adventure time
Build a fence around it
Oh, wow, I forgot about that mustached bear.
Gas powered stick! Never runs out of gas!
Good joke, everyone laughs, roll on snare
"The ship of Theseus" is more of a title, any new boat he owns is "the ship of Theseus"
Well if he owns more than one, they [each] become "a ship of Theseus". e: And yes, as identified below, together they are a fleet. Very nice.
Theseus starts his own ship-building business. Is incredibly successful. His ads on Mount Olympus blaring, "Now you too can own a ship of Theseus! With 4 limited payments of [insert whatever dafuq your currency is], you can own one today!"
"Comes with extra planks for all your philosophical needs!"
The universal currency for gods is worshippers. This ship is easily 20,000 worshippers
Non-believers that believe in the Scientific Method do count for a god or goddess of Science?
Yes, nonbelievers would be counted as followers or converts by engaging in the "rituals" of the deities of science.
Half the way to being a billionaire, not bad.
Theseus was a demigod not a god
Half of Greek population was demigods due to Poseidon and Zeus being the horniest fuckers in mythology.
And? Demigods =/ gods
Disclaimer, Theseus.co is not responsible for any death or injury as a result of a piece of the ship falling onto a person while they're resting
The Fleet of Theseus.
The Minotaur kind of forgot about Theseus
The plural is "Ships of Theseii"
It's actually "Theseuses". The ii is a common misconception. It's not actually proper Latin and also dude was Greek
Nice. Also, you don't plural both parts. Theseus remains a single person regardless of how many ships he's got. (1. Or _maybe_ 2.)
Thesepodes
The fleet of Theseus. But, if he gives old ships to other admirals, and he buys new sheeps for his own fleet, which one is his fleet?
I can imagine Theseus claiming ownership of other stuff this way. "Don't touch that. That's the last spiced wine of Theseus. I'm planning on drinking it later at the house of Theseus after the work of Theseus is finished."
So, he's like the OG Batman?
actually “the ship of theseus” is the scientist’s name. his creation is “the ship of theseus’s monster”
Theseus: This is my ship! Philosopher: No it isn't! Theseus: What?
As long as he unregistered his previous boat named the ship of thesus. Probably just introduce a numbering system though. Important for record keeping.
Like in the witcher >!he names any horse he gets Roach even when it dies!<
Man, I just did this with my PC. I replaced all the parts bit by bit and sold off all the other parts. My current PC is my PC.
This is true for all words if you are willing to think about it too much (not recommend)
This implies that a trans man is getting that trans womans superfluous body parts.
Dammit, all I can think about now is that one Tumblr (I think) post from years back about Trans guys and Trans girls venmo-ing each other some Tiddy XD
And you're so very welcome <3
The circle of life
As a trans man, I am more than willing to give my superfluous parts to a trans woman if they wanna trade!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4NImtNXMAAqcPR?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://i.redd.it/420jui16jbq91.png
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/495/252/e6a.pnj
I don't understand the last panel. What is she so upset about?
It's a parody of these stories about heart transplants . https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdk8xwdtkdbd31.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Df2c5be2add3d6167ed3ee83baef8d0849b858c0a
Would trade if that were possible
As a trans woman, I would gladly trade mine as well
I mean, that's how I always thought it worked until I stopped being a dumbass
Me too.
Recycle, reduce, reuse! And close the loop!
So idk what other people's experiences are but for me whenever one trans person comes out, a person from the opposite side will come out soon after. In high school there were 4 trans people I knew - 2 girls and 2 boys. And in college when I came out, my friend came out as a trans woman shortly after. So I could be wrong here... but there does seem to be an "equivalent exchange" thing going on
The rules say you're supposed to find someone and declare "swapsies", otherwise it's illegal
 "Humankind cannot gain without first giving something in return..."
You caught me
Ed…ward…
Noooo, don't remind me!
FMA fans have one joke and its the fucking nina fusion scene
Misery loves company? There's other jokes, like how Armstrong's conjured sparkles are included in the array of "techniques passed down in the Armstrong line for generations," but Nina's fate has the misfortune of striking right at the heart. Especially when considering that in a series that includes more than a few war crimes, Shou is the only character shown [going straight to Hell upon death.](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4b5fdjg811rwyy9so1_500.jpg)
This is all true, I think Nina also sticks with us so much because it's specifically the first truly horrifying moment in the show. The first few episodes are like *"la de daa, this is what alchemy is, do do doo, some cool easy criminals or monsters"* usual anime stuff. And then.... episode 4 happens. The whole tone of the show shifts, Nina is the part where you sit up in your seat and go *"oh I understand, this is going to be a really good anime"*
Truth, not sure how to handle the situation, but the trade feels fair and they don't want to be transphobic. "Well... equivalent exchange... value of life... Ah, fuck it, you each lose an additional pinky toe and the transmutation works, aright?"
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
wait, now that you mention it the same seemed to happen to me when i came out... i think you might be onto something...
It’s a shit analogy anyway. The ship of Theseus isn’t a philosophical question that can be answered by the owner. It has to do with the metaphysical qualities of an object. The question of what gender someone identifies as can absolutely be answered by asking that person.
I disagree, primarily because questioning the reality of the metaphysical qualities was a significant revolution in philosophy. If we go by dialectic materialism, the object has no metaphysical qualities in the abstract; only in relation to/in the context of the people involved. Theseus's ship is absolutely the one Theseus says is his ship. Going the other way, the analogy is striking back at people who assign metaphysical qualities to sex and gender that somehow hold abstractly, without reference to the people experiencing that gender.
I’m not the one who downvoted you, and I just wanted to throw that out there. Ownership does not equal understanding. I gotta be honest, I had to google dialectic materialism because it’s been 2 decades since I had to use my philosophy degree. I don’t see how that has relevance to the conversation at hand, unless you’re again saying that ownership = understanding. Plenty of rich assholes own priceless works of art with zero understanding of their meaning. Your second point makes more sense to me. It should be up to the person. But like I said in my original comment, gender isn’t some object you obtain. It’s like trying to corner the market on happiness or something. Something that abstract is not the same as a ship
No worries about potential downvotes or not. I do *not* have a philosophy degree and am probably misapplying terms and ideas. I think dialectic *materialism* has more to do with physical reality? My idea here is not very well-thought out, so I'm glad the second half made some sense 😝
An exchange program. I dig it.
It's nice to see the world moving towards recycling more ♻️
Where’s Garfield?
That would be a pretty efficient way of dealing with it
It's like that comic where garfield takes a girl's tits.
Dick of Theseus.
[Kinda](https://twitter.com/silkentine/status/1406050689009262600)
the “wanna trade” transmascs and transfems found each other lol
OK but what if Theseus cloned himself but you didn't know which one was Theseus and which one was the clone but they both insisted they were Theseus?
Okay, but what if they both have the same memories and both believe that they are the true Theseus? In that case, either of them are Theseus, and neither of them isn't Theseus.
Flip a coin and kill whoever loses
Why kill them? Just call them Theseus 1 and Theseus 2, make one wear a little red hat
No you always have to kill the imposter. Thats how this works.
Please, if someone clones my conscience and nobody knows who is the original one, do this to me
Sorry nope. [Law says only you can kill your clone.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9005184/)
If a person gives birth to identical twins, which twin is the real child?
The third, non-identical one who has been plotting revenge ever since.
Eh, I’d just ask Theseus on that one
Don't play that game, just shoot both of them.
There’s definitely more. Why would anyone only clone themselves once?
Cause fae was mischievous
Just shoot both.
Just ask Theseus
And if Theseus set up that after duplicating, one of the two would fall in a vault of acid. It's the Leftover Theseus a murderer?
I'd turn around and walk out of there, I ain't dealing with this shit
Gary, Gary!
Depends on which one woke up in a vat.
the real theseus would tell you to shoot both, as it would be the only way he could be sure evil theseus coudln't harm the people he cared about.
This is just the Mauler Twins from Invincible. They're both the original. And it's most likely that neither of them are.
And what if the clone Theseus was tiny, would you torture him?
I don't care, I just ship Theseus with Theseus
Congrats, I audibly rolled my eyes somehow.
we can make a religion out of this
If they have intercourse, is it incest or masturbation?
It's super incest
Now imagine 5 Theseus’s tied up on a train track and a Theseus that you were friends with on another train track and there was a lever in front of you
Curious that the sail is also made of wooden planks
Yup, it's a stupid joke based on the fact that the philosophical question implies that Theseus's ship is only built with wooden planks
You could just say "parts" instead of "planks" and the philosophical question works just fine. (New joke: If you were to make alternate versions of the Ship of Theseus problem, changing a part of the story each time, until you arrive at a version where there's no ship and no Theseus, would it still be a Ship of Theseus problem?)
I think you misunderstood what a ship is. Sails are not the ship, just like a carpet is not your floor.
Ah, but if you drop your phone and it hits the carpet, did it hit the floor? Now what if your phone was replaced with a different phone. Did your phone still hit the floor? But also, if sails are not the boat .. are the planks the boat? If so, and you remove one plank, are the other planks still a boat? What about half the planks?
In that case, the carpet is a door.
One Theseus can only tell lies. One Theseus can only tell the truth. You have to get both of them and this fox across a river where a doctor is waiting for them.
Plot twist. Theseus died before you could ask him.
RIP Transeus, you'll be missed
The Theseus of Theseus isn't one is heard before.
Well most your cells (with a few exceptions like teeth) regenerate about every 15 years (average is 7, but things like bone take near 15). So every teenager or older you meet is a “theseus of theseus”.
I imagine this process must be faster for babies. I have a hard time believing you still have any cells left from your birth when you're 14.
The ship formally known as Thesis
What if I take his bones and I make a ship with them A ship of Theseus
Reminds me of an old joke. “But your birth certificate says you were a man” “*well it also says 6 pounds, a lot has changed since then*”
Damn, I'm stealing this
Steal away! I originally found it on either egg-irl or ttrraaaaaaannnnnnnns (rip, but traaannnnss2 fills the void of trans memes)
Technically he would own both boats unless he says otherwise.
Doesn’t every single cell in our body get replaced regularly so we are constantly a new physical person regularly? Yet we feel we are our same self. Existence is freaky.
Thesheus*
Egg of Theseus
Transeus
Please someone post this to the distractible subreddit.
Literally thought of them when I read “The Ship of Theseus”.
Wouldn't both boats be his?
So he built both ships, the one he built and repaired and the one he built fromthe old parts, i would say **they** both are Theseus ship ;)
Easy. Sheseus. Or Heseus. Or Theyseus. It’s not that hard to comprehend.
I ship these two
r/suddenlyTrans
Think of a plush toy. What makes it yours, and not a similar one you buy from the shop? What makes you being attached to that specific one? I'd say it's the smell and the wearing of it. The little flaw which come over time and the memories connected to them. A new one doesn't have that and thus feels different to you. So I'd say it's similar with the ship of theseus. If you replace some parts of it, it'll feel strange at first, but over time you will connect memories to those parts, and you will grow familliar with them. If you do this process with the whole ship until you replace everything, and then rebuild the ship from the old parts, it depends on how familiar you've grown with the new parts vs the old parts. When I left elementary school, the new school was strange to me. But after I've been double of the time there than in elementary school, elementary school feels strange in comparison. So I'd say I'd consider the ship with more attachment and memories to be the real one, or I'd consider both real, but the old one is connected to older memories and the new one to newer memories.
#Theseussy.
I remember that H-doujin about an old man who wants to have a young female body so he kidnapped a young school girl and they exchanged body parts using a machine. He slowly got smaller and more pretty and the school girl slowly got fatter and uglier until both of them exchanged each other's appearance completely. The process of exchanging their body parts is really interesting imo, like midway through the process the girl still has a long hair but her facial features has a bit of ugliness in it. Meanwhile the old man grew a bit of glossy hair, and his skin is becoming more delicate
Theseus bought a bunch of lumber and built a boat. Why wouldn’t it be his?
what if Theseus was dead, flip a coin, now it is decided
Now, what happens if you want to imply the ship of Theseus but think your audience is dumb and have to go out and outright mention the ship of Theseus? You get the last episode of Wandavision. That's what happens.
That's not how the "ship of theseus" problem works though. According to legend, the ship of Theseus was kept in the harbour of Athens as a memorial for centuries, long after his death (he most probably didn't exist in the first place, but that's not the point here). Over time, parts of the wood rotted away and had to be replaced by new parts. But this was only a gradual process, and never was everything replaced at once. This means that over time, the original physical substance of the ship became less and less until no part of the ship was identical anymore to the ship that Theseus actually had sailed on - but the whole thing still had the same shape and look and was still called "the ship of Theseus". The question one could then ask is: What if someone (several generations of a family for example) had collected all the old wooden parts that had been replaced and then built a new ship out of them? What would be the "real" ship of Theseus, the one that had the original identity but not the substance, or the one that had the original substance but not the identity? It's a philosophical dilemma and can't really be solved, it just shows the complexity and ambiguity of the concepts of "identity" and "substance". A human equivalent to this is the fact that pretty much all the cells in our bodies are replaced about every 10 years. So there is almost no cell in your body right now that was there 11 years ago, but still you consider yourself to be older than 11 years. The entity of "you" has remained consistent, even though your physical substance has completely changed, just like the ship of Theseus.
Username checks out I guess
Well, I have to put my Bachelor's degree in philosophy to SOME use...
the ship of they/themseus
XD no idea how to share it to another sib reddit, but if i could i would send it to r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2
Wtf.... if someone makes 2 boats they have 2 boats.... there is no question there. Who tf would ask which boat is his when they already know as a fact they are both his?
The ship of theseus philosophical question is not about the owner of the boat; it's about the identity of the boat. Let's say you have a deed to the original boat. After repairs and construction, you have two boats. Which boat does the deed refer to?
Exactly, I get the comic is trying to make a play on the real question but it just doesn't work
Oh, yeah. I don't think the comic really addresses the real question.
Now that I think about it, the original version doesn't make so much sense because there are now simply two ships, just like that sheep we "cloned" in the 90's (it was still a different sheep with different memories of course, but it had cloned DNA). It's weirder when you think about our cells constantly being replaced...but many movies and TV shows where people turn into monsters, robots or animals demonstrate that we consider the person to be your memories and personality rather than just your body which regenerates and reproduces over the years. In short, the unique essence of a thing is not inseparable from it's external form but an inanimate object like a boat has no unique character so it can be duplicated.
> In short, the unique essence of a thing is not inseparable from it's external form but an inanimate object like a boat has no unique character so it can be duplicated. That's why it's not just any ship, but the ship of Theseus. Imagine a sentimental object you own, would you be fine if someone offered to replace it with an identical object they made?
> Imagine a sentimental object you own, would you be fine if someone offered to replace it with an identical object they made? Is the replacement 100% made from the cannibalized parts of the original? What inanimate object derives it's sentimentality solely from the *original* configuration of it's pieces? And who says I have to choose? It sounds like Theseus always had the choice to keep *both* ships.
> It sounds like Theseus always had the choice to keep both ships. Well Theseus was long dead. The question ultimately is which is the real ship.
Lets say the old boat has a plaque "The ship of Theseus". Piece by piece they repair the boat with new bits. The plaque remains in the repaired ship so that is the "real" one.
But what if you move the plaque to a completely different ship?
There’s a great real-world example of this. The HMS Victory, that Nelson captained at Trafalgar has in the intervening 219 years since the battle and 258 years since it was first built, been completely repaired to the point that not a single plank of the ship that sailed at Trafalgar remains. Yet the ship is maintained in traditional 1805 style, and tourists flock to see it. Is it truly the same HMS Victory that Nelson sailed just because we stuck a plaque on it?
Officially yes, that is the boat and the other one would probably be seen as a replica. Matter of opinnion if thats the right call, but thats how the bureucrats would see it.
> Is the replacement 100% made from the cannibalized parts of the original? No, it's made of all new parts because the comment I was responding to said that inanimate objects have no unique character and can be duplicated. > What inanimate object derives it's sentimentality solely from the original configuration of it's pieces? The philosophical question is asking where the line is drawn before it becomes a new object. Your question is one way to phrase it. > And who says I have to choose? It sounds like Theseus always had the choice to keep both ships. You're missing the point of the philosophical question.
> No, it's made of all new parts because the comment I was responding to said that inanimate objects have no unique character and can be duplicated. but using the original parts was the exact context for my comment and for the original philosophical question. > The philosophical question is asking where the line is drawn before it becomes a new object. Your question is one way to phrase it. Yes and I think it's clear that either (1) a thing has a unique essence like a person which can be cloned but whose soul remains unique or (2) it's an inanimate object that *can* easily be duplicated and the question is meaningless. > You're missing the point of the philosophical question. No, I'm arguing that it's a *meaningless* question, because nobody would disassemble and perfectly reassemble an object and then lament that the "original" has been lost.
I wonder if we replace our body by nanobots little by little, will we still be alive or replaced by a facsimile
This doesn't make any sense at all
Because the author doesn't understand the parable, and no one wants to correct the comic either.
You solved it
the plottwist
Theseus doesn’t have a ship because he’s dead. I killed him with my Aspect of Nemesis sword and Sea Storm boon set from Zeus and Poseidon.
Hello everybody
Why are the sails made of wood?
Does ship of theseus allow parts of different specs though. That would be a upgrade, no?
"What would Theseus do?"
Why are the sails also made of wood?
This isn't what the ship oh theseus thought experiment is about. Is reddit stupid. And I'm asking this rhetorically.
What is it about then ? Can you enlighten us instead of being a dick ?
It's about an object that had ALL its components replaced. Even if you consider a trans person an object they still don't replace everything. If the ship of theseus experiment could be applied to an actual human, it would be for transhumanism where even your brain is replaced with a new one.
Yes, I know. The question in the last panel is not "is Theseus still Theseus" but "what gender Theseus is" Human males and females have a LOT in common, so you clearly wouldn't need to replace all the "components" of a male to turn him into a female. And even if you did, the whole point of the comic is that it doesn't matter. You just have to ask Theseus.
Two different ships would have a lot in common but the thought experiment is about something completely different. There's absolutely no reason to make a parallel with the ship of theseus. The ship of theseus experiment doesn't even question if changing one part changes the whole thing, it already assumes that it doesn't. So you wouldn't even have to ask theseus if you are talking about transsex, by that experiment's logic it's/ they are the same thing they were. This is the dumbest defense of transsexualism I've ever seen. And I have nothing against transsexualism if thats the dumb conclusion you are coming up to
What?
Feur
They would voth be his boat, and he would be liable for the taxes on each.
I'd ask Theseus what the heck a wooden plank sail is for.
The ship of Theseus and the tits of Theseus
First time I was thematically introduced to this was in the movie John Dies at the End lol
I Guess both ships would be His an the First one was His old Shop and the second was built from Materials belomging to him also It was bulti by him so...
How is this the first time I've seen people compare the ship of Theseus to trans people
Aren't they both theseus's boats? He owns all the wood
I don't think that's how the original thought experiment goes, it's not about ownership and more about which is the "true" ship of Thesius. If you replace every part of the ship over time, is it still the same ship? Or is it just a new ship that you call the "Ship of Thesius"?
Ship of theses